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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00)
Hello, how are you today? Well, here's the problem, Taina. We have a podcast. People have to hear you say hello. You can't just wave. ⁓ Good morning, good afternoon.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:07)
I'm finishing my toast.
Afternoon, yeah, it's 1 o'clock. Morning for me, barely woken up.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:15)
Yeah, it is kind of late now, isn't it?
well, welcome to the day. How are you doing?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:20)
Yeah.
God, I've been better. I've had a really rough night.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:23)
⁓ Anything you want to talk about or move on?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:27)
It was insomnia. Insomnia. joys.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:30)
⁓
⁓ well, have
you anything you want to talk about?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:36)
Mmm.
I don't know. I don't know.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:38)
state of the world
or should we talk about something less terrible? ⁓ The problem with talking about the state of the world on a podcast that runs three or four days after we produce it is it changes so much. It's wild. Like we're at war with Iran. We're not at war with Iran. We've invaded a country. we've moved on to something else. You just can't even talk about like what's happening with current affairs because they are so current.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:42)
Yeah, I don't know.
Well, I hope anyone who is listening or watching understands that we are not a news podcast.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:10)
I
think they do. But I'm just saying by the time they listen to it, they're like, yeah, that's already over. Trump's already taco'd and we've moved out of that war and into something
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14)
Yeah.
Because
sometimes you pop in with something and I'm like, haven't even heard that about that. Like I haven't even heard about that. Yeah, but I don't watch a lot of news. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:23)
Well, that's interesting. Well,
we could talk a little bit. We could do our little favorite, let me check threads and tell you what's trending and you can see if you have any thoughts about any of
Taina Brown she/hers (01:34)
Ooh, yes,
let's do live reactions.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:36)
first of all, how about this usher called Sean combs, P daddy, puff daddy, whatever million names he had a legacy. in an interview saying he had nothing negative to say about him. He acknowledged his, he acknowledged his quote flaws, but said his experience differs than public perception. This could be an interesting line of talk because I see this happen a lot.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:44)
Mmm.
⁓ that's interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:01)
Now this is in this case it happens to be two black men but I see this very often among white folks and also I see this happen with women talking about other women. When women step forward talking about abuse, also when men step forward talking about abuse, when someone comes out to say this person harmed me, whoever that is, we see so often where people will say, and this can even be the I believe all women crowd,
who suddenly are like, well, that wasn't my experience. I think that they're great. I have great experiences with them. And that can be really harmful in that it makes that person who's come forward, is gaslighting them. is making them question themselves. It's making them feel not seen, not heard, not validated. It is...
Taina Brown she/hers (02:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:48)
challenging for then making other people not want to come forward because they're afraid they're going to be met with these like basically supporting the abuser. And and here's our big and it can be very challenging when you're on that when you are that person who's had a very specific experience with a person to hear something that sounds so unbelievable to your own experience that it can be challenging to then say.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:52)
Mm-hmm.
of character.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:12)
I'm going to what cut off this relationship or I'm going to whatever it might be. So that could be something interesting to talk about because I think many of us have had that experience. And what do you do when you have something like that come up in your life? It can be really, really hard to these are those murky waters that can be difficult to navigate.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is, it is. And I have a lot of thoughts. ⁓ I mean, I don't have any.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:34)
Maybe not in the case of P-Diddy though, but go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:37)
super specific thoughts about P-Diddy. ⁓ I do have some thoughts just about those types of situations. ⁓ Have you ever known someone who, and this is a question for you, Becky, have you known someone or do you know someone who's ever been accused of causing any kind of physical harm to someone else?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:40)
Yeah. Other than.
then.
Yes.
I don't want to get too deep into my personal experiences in this particular story or in this particular line of talk. I'm trying to think of something that's less personal and I can't at the moment. If something comes to me that's a little less close, then I would offer more of that. But in this particular case, these are things that involve family in a very close way and people who've passed and things that I just, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:02)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, I get it. get it. And I'm not asking you to share any specific details. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:30)
Yeah. But the answer is yes. I have very much experienced
that where I have known somebody who has been accused of something of causing harm to someone and being that person who has also in some in one case had a very different experience. Another case fully understood.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:46)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And I think given the statistics that we know about how often physical and even more specifically sexual harm is caused to people, I don't think anyone can accurately say that they don't know anyone who's ever been accused of or not accused of but has caused actual sexual harm to someone else.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:11)
And even if you don't, you do.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:13)
And exactly, exactly. Like even if it hasn't been disclosed to you, statistically speaking, the chances are very, very slim that you don't know anyone who's done something like that, which is scary to think about. ⁓ But.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:26)
Right. And saying
that you know somebody who's been on the other end of receiving the
Taina Brown she/hers (05:31)
Yes, who has
received it. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I am.
have a close relationship with someone who has been accused of that wrongfully. so, but like you said, like it's one of those things where it's like.
when that comes to light, you're just like, that's not the person that I know. But there's always like, well, at least for me, like, there was a period of like, reflection of like, how well do I know this person? Do I know this person as well as I think I do? And
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:07)
And how well can we ever really know anyone? Anyone?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:09)
really know someone.
so unless, and unless there's like hard evidence, which in my case, there was hard evidence that it was untrue. Like there's, there's, I feel like there could just always be that lingering doubt, you know? Um, and so you kind of have to decide.
which relationship, like I think you have to decide which relationships take priority, right? Like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:36)
And
that can be really, really challenging.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:39)
Mm-hmm. It can. can. And I don't think... I think there's a difference between saying...
That was in my experience. So I don't see how that could have happened. And that wasn't my experience, full stop. Right? And so I think I'm not as quick to, or not as quick, but I'm not as keen to say, you know, that if someone responds with that was in my experience, it's, that it is gaslighting because I...
because everyone's experience with an individual is different. Like that could be their reality, right? But I think it's a fine line between saying that was in my experience and then that turning into gaslighting. Yes, exactly, exactly. And I think the bigger your platform, the finer that line becomes, right? Because there's power and influence in the way that you talk about things. And so, I mean,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:21)
And to, don't believe you or that there's no way to happen. Which we see.
Yes. And in the case
of P. Denny, just to be clear, he is currently serving a 50 month prison sentence for transportation for prostitution. So it and we have seen actual video evidence of him harming at least one woman. mean, there's probably more. And I don't follow that stuff. And I've seen it not to harp on him. But yes, there is a difference than to say, well, my experience differs than whatever. And I do think it's fair to say I had a different experience with him. But I think in the case of something like this,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:48)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:02)
where, and whether it's a P-ditty and that, or probably in your life who's now in, right, who's in jail for it, or you know if that be factual that they did something to someone else, I think it's very important to not just say my experience differs, but to say my experience differs and I stand with those victims, or, I honor what's happened to those victims, right? That's a different, and there wasn't that. Usher didn't want to have, didn't want to say any piece of that negative. And I think that's probably where it becomes a problem.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:05)
Or just some random ghost mode, yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think there's a lot of layers here, I think. Like this isn't, like we can't just talk about this specific situation in the context of just like the harm that was done, right? Like we also have to consider like, these are two black men, right? Who have grown up and lived in a world where black men are, ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:47)
Well, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:55)
historically have been incredibly wrongfully accused to their death. How many, right? ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:01)
how many men have been, yes, that we see come out
of prison at either right before they were gonna die or, you know, after spending 20, 30 years in there. I mean, it happens all the time. For crimes they did not commit and only, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:08)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For hundreds of years now, for hundreds of years now, right? That's been a thing.
But it's also been a thing that there's a sense in, or there's kind of a way that...
because of the harm done by things like false accusations and the over-policing of Black bodies, there's such a distrust of anyone outside of the Black community often, which isn't misplaced, but it can lead to something like this where you kind of close ranks and you are like...
at any cost, like, we're shoulder to shoulder, right? And so I think that's where some of the nuance gets lost. And to be frank, like, if I saw a Black person committing a crime, I would probably not call the cops.
like because the chances of that black person walking away alive I know are very slim. Like there's always a chance that they won't.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:15)
It would depend for me on
it would depend on the crime for me. But certainly, did I see you stealing food? No, I did not. Did I see you stealing gas? Is theft? No. Physical harm to someone, perhaps, especially if I can if my doing something about it might be able to stop it from getting worse. But yeah, you're right. Yeah. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm not saying I won't do anything. I won't call the cops. probably,
I probably, can't say for sure because in that situation, like I don't know how I would respond, but my first instinct, I will say I'm pretty confident would be to not want to call the police because it's always a risk. It's always a risk. Now what kind of intervention I do consider appropriate in that moment.
Right, that's up for debate. And I think this is where support structures and frameworks like harm reduction come into play, right? Where it's it's important to have community structures where someone from the community.
whether it's like a geographical community or in terms of like closeness of intimacy and relationship, that there's someone that can be called to come in and intervene in a way that isn't going to continue to exacerbate the situation or cause further harm. Those kinds of things are important. And I think that gets, that has somehow
turned into what we're seeing with how Usher is like talking about and addressing, right, what's happening with P Diddy. It's like, well, no, we'll take care of us. But everyone else on the outside, like, y'all don't know what you're talking about or just stay out of it kind of a thing, right? And so I think that's where it can become, that's where it becomes toxic, right? And even more harmful.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:56)
Yeah,
as a white person, generally like, when I see stories like this on threads where I have a lot to say about a lot of things, I try to stay out of, mean, as an example, Jay-Z was just quoted talking about how basically trying to claim he's an ethical billionaire and like, leave him alone and all this. And listen, all my thoughts about it, I generally try not to as a white person.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:21)
make comments or direct something at somebody of color and try to use to call them in. I don't think it's my place to call in somebody who holds different marginalized identities than I hold. I think as you were saying, I feel like that's a community effort. And if you look at the comments, believe me, his community is taking care of it, right? I don't need to step in. And that's something that we often forget, I think, as we need to look at our privilege as well as our marginalized identities. I may hold marginalized identities, but they're different than his.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:37)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:47)
And it's not my place. It's not my community to be calling in. Right. And we have our lanes and we need to find those. And I agree with what you're saying. Like in this podcast, it was one of the first things I noticed that I thought was an interesting story. But again, I don't necessarily need to speak to Usher and P Diddy specifically. I thought that the concept behind that is something that we can relate to because you're right. It's not my community to be calling in. You know, I think you might have something to say to Usher. Other folks might have something to say to Usher about.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:14)
how he's talking about that. It's not really my space to talk about that. Now, if P Diddy had personally harmed me, I might have more of a feeling about wanting to.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:22)
Yeah, because you were
brought, then at that point you're brought into the community, Whether it's consensual or not. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:27)
Yeah, right. Right now I'm just an outsider looking at the story. And ⁓
we tend to think the celebrity stuff is it's like it's a TV show that we've been asked to comment on. But that is not the case with celebrities. These are actual humans. for all of the power structures and everything they're playing, those are real. They are still humans. I just wanted to share one other quick story from Threads also, because it relates to what you saying about would I call the police? The answer is no.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:54)
Because I was also thinking about just wrongful incarceration is something we have to really think about because even if you say, you know, and I did that he's been convicted and I think that is important. And right here's the messy part and that doesn't necessarily mean that he's wrong and then somebody else because they weren't convicted is okay they didn't do the thing.
because that's just simply not how it works in our country. And as an example, Alan Richson, who is Reacher on TV, if you've seen that show, he's an enormous white man. And when I say enormous, I mean muscles galore, right? is a very, he's like a Dwayne the Rock Johnson kind of a body. Like it's a ridiculous body. I'm not into that body type, but like, you know, it's a serious body with. Yeah, there's pecs, there's abs, there's it's all of it, OK? And he's.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:16)
Yeah.
He's very handsome.
I usually am not either, but...
It's the whole package.
It can't just be the body.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:42)
It's a work of art.
I can appreciate it as art. don't appreciate it. wouldn't want to be around it like physically, but anyway, he was riding up and down his street, apparently on his motorcycle in someplace in Tennessee. Tennessee is a red state. Apparently he has conservative neighbors. What I have learned about Alan Richson since is apparently he is not wound that way. He has been shown in shirts that have very clear anti-maga kind of messages. So he seems to be anyway, his politics seem to be pretty right on.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:09)
driving up and down the street, he's got this old older, not old, probably in his, by the looks of him 50s, 60s and Alan Richson is probably in his 30s. Scrawny little old ⁓ conservative white man who gets really mad at Richson for driving his motorcycle up and down the street. Apparently, and I don't know, maybe he's popping wheelies. I don't know what he's doing. Maybe it's even dangerous. I have no idea. But he starts yelling at Alan. First of all, know your battles.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:22)
Because of the motorcycle? Because it's loud? They hate noise. They really hate noise.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:34)
you little tiny scrawny older white guy want to go up against this behemoth of a human. Okay. Starts yelling at him, whatever. And apparently he pushed Alan Richson first and there was video to show it, but he pushed him and he paid the consequences. He got his ass whooped by this giant man. Now the cops showed no prior charges were pressed. Alan declined pressing charges against the man who pushed him for pushing him because he started it. They had evidence to show that he wasn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:52)
That's Bawzy.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:01)
in the wrong, but before that, there's no way they didn't have the videos. When they got there, there was no video evidence they could look at. Here they have one enormous man who's beat up one smaller older white guy. Had Alan Rich said Ben Dwayne the Rock Johnson? Had he been a black man who was a big, strong, muscular black man like that, who had now been the police arrive and it's clear he has now caused harm to this older frail white man? The story would have looked very different.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:28)
I
know it. In conservative Tennessee, there is no, in most places, the cops are gonna come and they're gonna take that very muscular black man who has beat up a white man and put him in jail. Now, maybe he would have eventually gotten out because the video evidence and all of that. Again, if there wasn't video evidence and it's his word against someone else's, would the story look different?
Taina Brown she/hers (16:45)
Or even if
there is video evidence, I'm thinking of Sandra Bland, who died in custody when there was video evidence that she wasn't doing anything. Orlando Castile.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:49)
There you go.
Exactly,
All the time, right? Yes. So, yes, it's just those reminders that like in the very same news cycle, we have a glaring example of where we can't just take someone either having been charged, you know, gone to jail or not, whatever, as the evidence of whether we support someone or don't or whether they are right or wrong.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:16)
right?
Because we just that isn't the evidence. But also we can't only rely our own personal experience as a universal truth. And that can be really hard because it's like, I only I know you to be away, Taita. And if tomorrow I were to find out that you had been convicted of, you know, eating puppies, I would be like, I'm trying to think of something that wasn't like that's also
Taina Brown she/hers (17:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
god.
Well let me put
your mind at ease, I have not been eating puppies.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:40)
I know you haven't. I'm trying to think of something less horrific than some examples. That was still pretty horrific. But it was also, I was hoping it was absurdist so that we would know that. But I would be like, that's not the Tainan I know. She doesn't eat puppies. But also if the little puppy came up to me with a sad little eyes and said, she ate my brother, I don't think I would say to that puppy, no, she didn't. There's no way she did. All right. I've never seen her eat a puppy so she couldn't have eaten your brother. Right. That's.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:43)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
No she didn't, you're lying. What are you talking about?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:02)
I might actually be inclined to want to do that because I want to defend you because I love you, I care about you, and it's just not, it's so left field from what I would know. But I think that's where we have to pause and really think about what are all the layers of things that could be happening here? And how do I remove my personal feeling? I can't remove them, but how do I honor my personal feelings while also recognizing that they exist inside of a bigger experience happening? And that's so challenging for us to do as humans.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I think part of it is hubris, right? Like we think that what we know is all there is to know. And so when someone challenges that, whether it's in a situation like this where we're talking about someone, know, harming someone else or just, or even just like fucking science, right? Like think about all the maha people, like those idiots who don't.
believe in vaccines or whatever and you know, are you? Yeah, yeah, like anytime you come up with like actual scientific evidence that's been proven across generations by study after fucking study, like they assume that they know everything, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:53)
who are drinking raw milk.
and they will believe their friend's anecdotal story. Well, my friend had a kid who got a vaccine and then they were diagnosed with autism a year later. Correlation causation, right? That versus.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:17)
Mm-hmm. Versus
decades of scientific history and inquiry and, you know, controlled research and so many papers and so much evidence that has disproven those things, right? Not to say, and I think it also kind of goes back to the whole idea of just like this binary thinking, right? That like we think...
in terms of black and white either or. Like it's so hard for people to wrap their minds around. And when I say people, I include myself in this, right? It's so hard for us to sometimes wrap our minds around the idea that like things aren't usually mutually exclusive. Like the world is complex enough for two
seemingly opposing things to be true at the same time in the same space and It's so hard for us to understand that sometimes it's hard for us to understand that yes, the Sun will rise tomorrow But we actually don't know if it will we only have evidence that it has in the past and so we Yes
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:27)
It's likely to,
and something could happen that we don't yet know.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:32)
Yes, yes, it
is likely that it's totally possible that your friend's child got a vaccination and it triggered something in their genetic makeup. But the likelihood of that happening, right? It's is it possible? Yes, but is it probable, right? Like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:50)
And how about an even bigger and and even if it did that doesn't then translate into every other person's experience and that you then need to change what everyone else has. I think this is just that example of the vaccine. It's like I think also on the other side of this for the people who are like quick to judge that person. I think it's also and that's me. So I'm speaking to me. Right. It's important for us. I think the end is.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:58)
Everything.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, me too. I mean, I just called them idiots.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:18)
And I can honor that you're hurting, whether it's because of the vaccine or not, whatever's happening. I can honor that your experience is this thing and it felt a way to you, whether it's true or not, right? Because what actually happened and how you feel about it are two different things, but you are having very real feelings and it's very challenging and all of that can be real. So like, I think part of the problem is because we're so quick to...
Taina Brown she/hers (21:20)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:42)
Also, the people who are like, it's not binary can also get a bit in a binary where it's like, well, then you should feel this way and you should stop it. You shouldn't be reacting that way. And it's like, can I also then find capacity in my own compassion? And it's challenging for me to honor like, can I say to you, I bet that hurts. I bet it hurts that that is how you're feeling or that that was the experience that you had. That had to have been hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And also, I
mean, just our vaccinations, the ideal situation for us, humans remaining healthy? No, like, ideally, we should, our bodies should be able to keep us healthy on their own, right? Like, that would be lovely, but it's what we have, right? It's what we have to work with, right? Like...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:17)
That would be lovely, yes, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:24)
Is every vaccine going to be like the best possible scenario for every single person on the planet? No. Like, is every vaccine, like, is every study like 100 % accurate? No. Birth control is not 100 % accurate, but so many people still take it, right? Because it's the best case scenario, the circumstances.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (22:44)
I know people who have gotten
pregnant on birth control and then I didn't say, well, I'm gonna stop taking birth control because it doesn't work. Hell no, I didn't do that because I know that's really gonna increase my chances of getting pregnant, right? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:48)
So do I.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, when I started getting like heartburn and like acid reflux and all of that, like water was giving me acid reflux. And I was like, I wasn't like, well, I'm just going to stop drinking water because it's making me want to throw up.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:13)
Or,
and you also probably weren't telling every other person, hey, you all need to stop drinking water, it causes acid reflux. It's not a universal experience.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:19)
Like it just
boggles my mind. so, and I get it, for there are so many levels to this. And like you said, for someone who has had a bad experience with one thing or another, right? Like there is that personal experience it's taken into account. But what just burns me is when people just refuse, right? To like...
to to terms, to come to the table, to even discuss, right? Like if you're, if you are on the opposite side of what I'm saying, but you're willing to have a conversation with me, like that's one thing. But if you're on the opposite side of what I'm saying and you're like, you don't even want to like consider any other alternative viewpoint or possibility, like fuck you. Like who the hell are you to like decide that?
The truth starts and ends with you in your viewpoint.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:12)
Yeah, well, who we are humans who really have been conditioned into believing we are each the center of our own universe. And in many ways, we are the center of our own universe. The problem becomes where we start to think there are the planets revolve. Right. And that the plants are all over everyone else being the other plants are revolving around us. They're not they're each their own universe with their own planets revolving around them that are not people. Right. Like
Taina Brown she/hers (24:20)
Yep. Yep.
that our universe is everybody else's.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:40)
The truth is we are all part of an ecosystem that is interdependent, right? And what I do has ripple effects that affect the people, the other solar, I'm mixing all my metaphors, but that interrupts all of the other solar systems around me, right? My solar system doesn't exist in its own vacuum. And these other people who I think are circling around my planet, they're each circling around their own thing. And when I do something, it can ripple out and affect them. And we have to remember that.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51)
hahahaha
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:09)
And going back to the very beginning of this, can just be very hard to be able to step outside of your own experience and honor someone else's. We're all very quick, I think, to say, like, believe all women and mean that. But I think that also, because it's a very binary statement, it's the same to me as many other binary statements I may make, which is like all men.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:33)
It's all men until it's no men. It's all white people until it's no white people
Taina Brown she/hers (25:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:36)
believe all women, whatever these kinds of binary statements. What I think we're trying to actually communicate is different than it having to be a binary statement of like, because what I mean by that is not I'm not going to believe every woman all the time. If I see photographic evidence of Nancy Mace telling me she was hit by some trans person, I see the video and she was not.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:44)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:58)
I'm not gonna believe her. I don't have to believe her. And likewise, I could have somebody that I love dearly who's been accused of something. And because of my experience, because of what I know to be true, it may be hard for me to believe that person. I may never actually be able to fully believe this person accusing them of something. But what I can try to do is find the non-binary approach in that, which is...
Taina Brown she/hers (25:59)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:23)
I
can both hold that it's hard for me to believe this. I don't believe it necessarily. And I honor that you are feeling this way and that you have had harm caused to you and that this has been hard for you. And that can feel strange for people. But I think it can also be true. Like I can believe that Usher could say, again, you know, maybe we shouldn't even bring him into it. But like I can see that world where you could say that is just not my experience. Again, I think it's helpful to say the and. And I honor that there are people who have been
Taina Brown she/hers (26:36)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, well, it's like you just said it yourself, right? Where you're just like, it's all men until it's no men, right? Like those statements are, they have conditions on them, right? Like they're not, they do get abbreviated, right? But I think part of the reasoning behind the abbreviation is, or one, it's a quick soundbite, right? So it's gonna like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:52)
world.
Right. But they often get abbreviated to like all men.
It's more powerful, I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:16)
It's, yeah,
yeah, it's punchy, right? And so it's going to get people's attention and it's going to open up a pathway for a conversation, right? That's what's usually the intention there. But, but it's also like, it's meant to be jarring because the reality of the situation is so dire. It's like desperate times for desperate measures, right? When people say eat the rich, we're not actually fucking talking about cannibalism.
But those three words elicit a specific type of response that is necessary to engage people. And I think that's what gets lost when we're talking and we're using these abbreviated statements and whatnot. When it comes to truth, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:40)
Alright.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:57)
And there's a difference between my truth, lowercase t, and the truth, capital case t, right? And this is something that like...
has come like usually comes up a lot, right? When I'm working with clients and even when I was teaching, like talking to my students about because you know, we're discussing things like intersectionality and like ways that systems and structures are harmful to the individual but like to groups of people, right? And so we're like the lowercase truth might be that like your dad was a cop.
your neighbor, that's your quote unquote uncle may have been a police officer, right? May have been in law enforcement, may have been in the military. The capital case truth is that policing is harmful. It doesn't stop criminal behavior. It just reports criminal behavior and oftentimes perpetuates criminal behavior, right? So understanding.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:52)
And my lowercase
truth really quickly could also be, I've only ever had great experiences with cops.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:57)
Right, right. Like the police have always been kind to you. They've always believed you. They've always trusted you. They've always been gentle with you, right? So understanding that your truth and the truth, like that's a Venn diagram, right? Like there might be some overlap there, but they're not one and the same. It's not a flattened perspective. And I think,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:01)
Right. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:22)
People miss that, like they miss that, you know, as we've been saying, like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:24)
sure.
Well, because we get to that place of feelings versus facts, which is sort of some of that is that truth versus truth, right? Lower in capital T, because it's like, feel this way, or my experience is this, and that becomes this universal truth. That is just not the case. Before we go, I'm going to just if it's okay, unless there's anything else you want to say on that, I thought I would share another quick one or two things just from threads this week, which is one Wendy's, which is famous for its like online presence of
Taina Brown she/hers (29:36)
Yeah.
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:51)
being quick witted, their social media manager, whoever it is, and I don't know if they've ever been revealed, but very quick witted, very funny, in the comments, always sort of there. People love Wendy's and follow Wendy's just to see all their fun comments and stuff. Well, they apparently came out this week that Wendy's corporate has been supporting MAGA type candidates by a pretty high, I know, like 70 % of their giving, political giving goes to Republicans versus Democrats.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:51)
Mm-hmm.
God no.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:19)
Leans very heavy that way. In fact, from one thing I saw, maybe it's even more than Chick-fil-A. So Wendy's has lost hundreds of thousands of followers on threads specifically, probably Twitter. Maybe not, because that's a different world. But in a very short time, and people are talking about boycotting a similar sort of experience as ⁓ Target, and that has caused, for Target, very, very real consequences to their stock price and what's been happening for them.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:46)
So I just think it's very interesting to see. I wonder what your thoughts are on some of these like, because this is now a corporate entity versus like a P Diddy or whatever of just the idea of canceling of like, where we put our dollars because I mean, I know I think I don't eat Chick-fil-A, I don't shop Target. I try to be mindful of that. The and being and most corporations that you know are giving money to both parties.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:00)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:13)
Now, how much of us
each, it depends, because they want either party in power to remember them and treat them well. Right? They want laws that are going to help reflect, that are going to take care of them generally, tax-wise is what we're talking about. And so they give to both parties. Yeah, they give to both parties to try and influence both parties. I think our system of how our politicians are funded, I think we should have public elections, publicly funded elections, I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, financially, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:40)
The way everything's funded is so messed up. Again, it goes to systems issues. This is a systems issue more than anything. And there's very, like most places you're gonna be shopping that you're gonna be eating, especially when you're talking larger chains and corporate ownership, they're part of the system too. Corporations are shit. And so there's not a lot of places you get around it. That said, I don't need to eat Wendy's, so it's not a big deal. And I really don't eat Wendy's anyway, so it's not a big deal for me too.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:05)
Stop eating there. I unfollowed because that's not a big ask either. But it is interesting. It's sort of like this messy murky stuff that we don't always talk about, which is like, yeah, that's a problem. And really, the bigger problem is, again, at this more systemic level, because all the corporations are playing that game to some degree.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:23)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I do have thoughts about that. so, I think what we're talking about is a kind of like when we get to the nitty gritty of it, it's accountability, right? And so I think one, when it comes to elections and how they're funded, I've had this idea, I've thought about it this way for the past several years, I think since 2016, actually, where like any money raised by politicians for their campaigns,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:26)
Good, I want to hear them.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:48)
should go back to the people. Like I should be, I think it should be law, like legally binding that when you raise money, that goes to actual programs and systems and structures that support the people that you're campaigning for, right? Just throwing that out there. How likely is that to happen? Probably not. But when it comes to like canceling,
people or corporations and the whole thing of like campaigning and corporations donating being a systemic issue, obviously wholeheartedly agree. I think it's impossible to compare, not impossible, but.
a bit of a false equivalency to compare P. Diddy to Wendy's because we're talking about individual accountability versus corporate accountability, right? So like I think on the individual level, right, accountability looks like consequences for actions, right? Repair back to the people, reparations back to the people that were harmed. I think on a systemic...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:35)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:49)
wide issue or on a systemic level, accountability can look like canceling, right? Because that affects the financial pockets, right? That affects the finances, that affects quarter earnings, right? That affects all the things that matter to a corporation, right? That's the way they're going to feel the accountability the most. And so I think when it comes to things like cancel culture, like I think cancel culture is for
corporations, not for individuals. think for individuals, accountability needs to really come from a harm reductionist framework for both the person who committed the harm and the person or people on the receiving end of that harm. Right? And so that's where my thoughts lie there.
Yeah, I don't know. are your thoughts on that?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:37)
I agree.
I mean, I totally agree. And I think with corporations, it feels like this is how we as people have some power is the only power we have in that situation is our pocketbooks. And corporations only speak one language and their language is capitalism, it's dollars. And so I do think it is incumbent upon us to be thoughtful about where we spend our money.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:52)
is with earner dollars.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:03)
I guess the and I just want to say is and the systems are set up so that we do have limited choices, right? Capitalism creates through this cannibalization that happens where you have fewer and fewer choices and most of the choices have varying degrees of bad, but almost all of them have bad. There are really not corporations that exist because they don't exist outside of this out of the system. They are a part of the system. Again, this is not I am not talking about
Taina Brown she/hers (35:10)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:31)
Our businesses, small businesses, mom and pop kind of businesses, that's a different story. The corporations, these chains, these national global sorts of entities, they are, yeah, and they are what capitalism is. And all of them have to play the game to get to where they are. You just don't become, even Costco, which has better, quote unquote, better politics,
Taina Brown she/hers (35:35)
We're talking about million billion dollar businesses.
with political power.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:58)
They still play the game. are still finding ways to get loopholes to pay less than their fair share of taxes. They have to be. They are extracting. They're buying. They're buying from people from, you know, China and places in Indonesia and places where they're not paying people living wages. Like you just can't advance to the place that any of these big corporations we're talking about gets you without extraction, without playing the game, without causing real harm. And
Taina Brown she/hers (36:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, they have to be in order to increase,
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:25)
giving money to MAGA is definitely one of those. I think that's great. Let's let's. Yeah, I think that's just the piece that gets missing. It's like everyone gets laser focused on target for, you know, taking down their LGBT stuff during Pride. I think that's yes, that's yes. Like there's no but but there's the and of and just because Wal-Mart didn't do that doesn't mean that it's necessarily a better alternative to target when you look at.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:28)
But it's not the only way.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:51)
where their product sourcing comes from, the way they pay their employees, how they treat their employees, all the things that they're doing. All these corporations are guilty. They're all guilty, period. And so I think, boycott Target, boycott Wendy's, unfollow Wendy's, do the things that you can. Just know that any time you're shopping with any of these corporations, you are contributing to the system. And I don't blame you. It's not your fault. We all have to do that.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:18)
There
are reasons why I might have to shop at Walmart in many places. It is the only place you. McDonald's might be your only choice, or you might be in a place where there's only a Wendy's and if you need to eat and you don't have money to go get groceries or whatever the reasons.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:22)
It's the only place to go.
Yeah. Go to
fucking Wendy's and get some food.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:33)
I think that's just like, yes, when we have the choice and, but I think the part that gets often overlooked is there's a great deal of privilege, first of all, in many of these boycotts that don't get looked at. And then it becomes like, not only am I now canceling Wendy's, but I'm canceling you if you ever talk about go to whatever a Wendy's without understanding any of the reasons. And these boycotts don't really address the systemic bigger umbrella issue of capitalism and late stage capitalism.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:01)
that affect every place that many of these people who are boycotting shop and they want to sort of other themselves. And listen, again, I've unfollowed Wendy's.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:02)
Yeah.
I'll challenge that. think when we're talking about boycotts, I think we also have to just be really clear about what kinds of boycotts we're talking about. Because there's organized boycotts that do in their own way challenge the system and create some incremental kind of progress, which is all we can hope for because we can't live outside of the fucking system to begin with, like you said. But then there's also just like
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:28)
for sure.
Exactly!
Taina Brown she/hers (38:36)
unorganized boycotts, unstructured boycotts that just kind of go nowhere. So someone just screams out into the social media void, this person or this company and 5,000 people are all of a sudden boycotting. Well, 5,000 people in the face of a billion dollar corporation. They're not going to feel that. But I think in terms of having to live within the system, I think
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:38)
with definitely the Wendy's thing. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:02)
And we've talked about this before where it's like, well, if everything is bad, then what's the point, right? Like, and I think having these kinds of conversations and like having to remind ourselves that like no corporation, no place is actually safe for us, right? To spend our money in can become overwhelming. And so I just want us to remind ourselves that like, we're not responsible for all of it either.
Right? Like we work with what we know within the means and capacity that we have. So if you have the means and capacity to boycott Wendy's or Target or whoever, then go for it. Right? Make that decision for yourself. Don't spend the next 72 hours researching every single fucking company that you purchase from to try to figure out which ones you should be spending your money in and which ones you shouldn't. Right? Like, first of all, nobody has time to do that.
Nobody I know has time to do that anyway. So as you learn about things, as things come to light, then make informed decisions, right? And that's not to say that you should be willfully ignorant of where you're spending your money and what's going on in the world. But there's a balance between like understanding that you really don't have it in you to like do
the exact amount of research necessary to make an informed decision every single time you have to make a decision versus understanding that when you can make that informed decision, go ahead and make that informed decision and don't just be like, well, I'm just gonna do whatever. And so I think those two, again, those two things, they can coexist.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:45)
Exactly. Well, we totally agree. The only thing I was trying to say is what gets me gets my goat a little is when people then start to get a little holier than thou about it. Because it's like, sure, you've done a great job of boycotting Target. Good on you. And I haven't shopped in Target two years plus. So me too. And though I can acknowledge that just because I don't shop there, sometimes I have to go to, you know, wherever. don't know. Amazon, if I don't buy, for example.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:00)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:12)
I have all these damn birthday parties for these kids, okay? That my kid goes to and every time you gotta bring a gift and most of them right now it's Legos. There are only so many places I can buy Legos and if you've taken Target off, I don't shop at Walmart. If I can't go to Amazon, like I run out of places I can even buy Legos. There's not a place locally. At some point I just gotta buy the damn Lego kit for the kid for the birthday because I don't wanna deny the kid. I don't wanna show up and say, hey kid, you didn't get your birthday gift because I'm boycotting everywhere because all corporations are bad.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:23)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:38)
So don't act holier than now when I say, have to buy the Lego kit for the birthday party, because this kid deserves a present, and I had to buy it from somewhere, right? And don't act as though because I didn't buy it, because, and you're like whoever this mysterious person is. In your example, just because you didn't buy it at Target, but you ended up buying it at Amazon or Walmart or wherever you bought it, unless you bought it from a mom at pop shop. And even if you did, Lego is a giant corporation.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:03)
That is has its own like you're not exempt. None of us are exempt because we're participating in one boycott. We're doing one thing. We all have to make these choices inside of these systems. So none of us. Yes, boycott. Do the things you can do. Absolutely. We should all be doing that. And let's honor the fact that no one is perfect inside of these flawed systems. We all are making imperfect choices all the time.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:25)
And that's okay. It's because there isn't an alternative. We don't live in an alternative universe where that stuff doesn't exist, right? And so just, I get frustrated by the online space that really boils this stuff down to a really simplistic, well, I don't shop at Target and I don't shop at Chick-fil-A and I don't shop, wherever the things are. And then anyone who does is like below me. They're not doing enough. They're not good enough. They're not, and they don't know any of the reasons why that person might. And even if that isn't the case,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
you don't know that person's situation.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:53)
Are they really?
And are they doing their own introspection to still notice all the places they're still participating? They're still, they're still a part of it. We all are. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:58)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all live
in a glass house. Nobody should be throwing stones. Nobody should be throwing stones. But you know, when you brought up the Wendy thing, Wendy's, not Wendy. When you brought up the Wendy's thing, it made me think about like, I have to constantly remind myself that just because someone is a shitty person with shitty values and ethics,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:04)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:25)
does not necessarily mean that they're shitty at what they do or have no skills or talent whatsoever, right? ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (43:32)
Right, and by the way, the social media manager
for Wendy's is probably just a really talented person who wants a decent job that gives their kids, gives themselves healthcare, pays them a living wage. They get to have a little fun at work. We don't know the person's politics or whatever, and what are they having a real rough week now because of all of this? And ultimately, because of what? Like how many of the same people, by the way, who have all the stuff to say are working for corporations that are just as bad?
Taina Brown she/hers (43:38)
Yeah, probably some 26 year old.
Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓ god, I feel for them.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:00)
Right? Like we
can't help what our employer does. And so, yeah, like I can hate Wendy's. could hate what Dave Thomas. He's dead now. But whoever owns Wendy's like I can be like, yeah, don't give to Magga, whatever. But it's really not the social media managers fault. I mean, we find out they're also Magga, but, know, they're probably just a young kid trying to like make their way in the world. And by the way, they're really talented. They're really talented at what they do. Exactly, because because Wendy's probably doesn't pay them enough. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:08)
Yeah, the Thomas family.
Yeah.
Yep, yeah. Yeah, probably with like six roommates or still living at home because they can't afford their own place in this economy. Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:28)
Anyway, I totally agree
with you because like that, they are, kudos to them because they do a really bang up. I mean, they are one of the most impressive. Yeah, what they do. And I can still, so there's the and I can say your employer sucks and I can honor that you're really good at your job. And even if I find out that person is MAGA, I don't have to follow them, but I can honor that like your politics suck, you're horrible and you're really good at what you do.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:36)
So good. Yeah, so good.
You're good at your job, yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. mean, it always, things like that always bring to mind like the JKRs of the world, right? Like you're a horrible human being, but you built this entire world that is going to outlive you forever and ever because you're brilliant with words.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:58)
Yeah, exactly. Built amazing worlds.
I mean, we could do that with a
million artists. mean, P. Diddy, I don't like his music, but some people do, right? And like Michael Jackson, and I'm trying to think of, I know, now I'm like, needed some white examples because I know I'm like, wait a minute, but there's a million of them. I just don't pay. Well, and exactly, riddled with them. Jason Aldean, I don't even know who they are, but yeah, like you can like somebody's.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:15)
Yeah. R. Kelly.
Non-black. Who are the country artists who are assholes? Like, I don't listen to country music so I don't know.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:34)
work Picasso. mean, you know, there are plenty of examples throughout history where we find out at some point in their creative journey that they're a piece of shit and we can honor that their work was still they were still talented.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:36)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, like who's the blonde we performed at the inauguration? Country singer, American Idol girl? Carrie Underwood, yeah. Phenomenal singer.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:52)
⁓ Carrie Underwood.
Guess so.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:56)
But you're kissing that guy's ass? Really?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:59)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. I was going to share one thing. OK, we can't have commentary on it. I just want to say Bridgerton, which I don't watch. Did you? OK, they're adding they're adding a queer romance to the next season. I thought you might be excited about that. I wasn't sure if you were a viewer or not, but that was that's been very big news.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:07)
The trailer?
I am
a viewer and that has been, the build up to that has been several seasons already. yeah. Yes, already knew it was coming, didn't know when.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:22)
You already knew it was coming. Literally and
figuratively it was coming. But anyway, that's pretty big news apparently. It's been all over the feeds that Bridgerton is going to have a queer romance, so good for them. Two women, two men.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:33)
Yes,
two women, Michaela and Francesca. So in the original book series, it's Michael and Francesca. But the Shonda Rhimes, yeah, they decided to turn that character from a man into a woman. So yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:37)
Okay?
well good for them for making that
I love it. I love that.
Well, we've had the heated rivalry thing and now we get to have a sapphic version of it, which is fantastic because there needs to be more of that. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:55)
Yeah. And
their mixed race.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (46:58)
I mean, listen Shonda, you're on all the things. Is one of them disabled or neurodivergent or anything too? Fantastic. Shonda's like, I'm gonna hit each of the points. I love it. Well, I wanted it in on a good note, so I just wanted to say that. So yay, we celebrate the Shonda and yay for Bridgerton. Exactly, we need more of that in the world and a lot less of all the other stuff. Have a lovely day.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:00)
You might be watching Bridgerton next season is what you're saying.
Yes, yes! Just hitting all the marks.
Yeah.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah.
You as well.