Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Brand to Scale is a podcast where we talk to business leaders and industry influencers about how they built their brands. Each episode dives into real stories about starting up, growing through challenges, and what success looks like behind the scenes. It's an honest look at the people and ideas driving business forward.
Jack Dyer - No Intro
[00:00:00] Speaker 3: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Founder Scale. This is the podcast where I sit down with founders and business leaders to uncover the real stories behind building a business. I'm Jess, your host, and today I'm joined by someone who's helping founders build trust, authority, and genuine human connection through the power of storytelling, my favorite subject.
[00:00:20] Jack, welcome.
[00:00:22]
[00:00:29] Speaker: Thank you very much.
[00:00:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, lovely to be here, Jess. It's, uh, nice to be on the podcast. Thanks for coming on. I think we're gonna have a lot to toy- to talk about, 'cause storytelling is one of my favorite subjects. And, um, yeah, I think we're gonna get a- get along swimmingly, shall we say.
[00:00:43] Speaker: Yeah. Great.
[00:00:44] Speaker 2: So I always like to go right back to the beginning.
[00:00:47] So growing up, you've briefly spoken before about feeling like you thought a little bit differently to other people. So I'd love to know a bit more about your origin story, I guess, and, um, what that experience was like for you.
[00:00:59] Speaker: Yeah, of course. So, uh, I mean, we've got, we- everyone's got a superhero fatty you get the moment, so I'm, I'm not gonna go into my origin story too much.
[00:01:05] But, um, yeah, it's, it's this idea that, um, I've always sort of done things differently. As you said, I, I've always thought differently, um, you know, in a, in a group of friends, I'd always be sat on the sidelines. You know, they'd be my close friends, but I'd be sat slightly different to the side of them. And I'd, I'd, uh, often end up when I was a kid, talking more to my friends' parents sometimes than my, my friends.
[00:01:24] And, um, it's just this idea of, um, like going out into the, into the woods where I lived. Yeah, I lived in the Forest of Dean, so, uh, everyone else was going out, getting drunk under, under trees and under bridges and stuff. You know, those gigantic two-liter bottle of Frosty Jack Cider.
[00:01:37] Speaker 2: Standard, yeah.
[00:01:37] Speaker: Yeah.
[00:01:38] Pretty standard. I, I would be the one who, um, wasn't going out drinking, getting wasted, uh, at 14. But I'd be, I don't know, building, like getting a close mate who lived nearby. We'd go out into the woods and, and build like dens and, you know, like, I don't know, Robin Hood style stuff. Um, like make, make arrows and had l- I had little carving knives and things.
[00:01:54] And it's a, it's a lovely childhood. Um, really, like wholesome. Uh, but it just made me realize that, yeah, other people weren't doing this. They were all just, like following the crowd and going and getting pissed every, every night. And, um, that wasn't really me. I was doing my own thing. Uh, and then I, I realized that, you know, other people had paper rounds, and instead of doing that, I found an apple tree in my parents' garden.
[00:02:14] Um, I say found, like it was a labyrinthian garden. It wasn't, it was just in the front garden. Um, but I, uh, picked all the apples, uh, put them in baskets, and took them down the local pub, and just wandered around in the pub garden selling apples. Um, and I thought it was because, like people really liked apples.
[00:02:29] Turns out they didn't care about the product. They just cared about a, I... Like a 10 or 12-year-old, um, being entrepreneurial, doing something different. And that was a really nice thought, you know, that when you put yourself out there, when you do think differently, things like good things happen, um, because people need, we need people who think differently.
[00:02:48] And, and then you get into school, and if you think differently, it's a bad thing. You know, you're bullied, you are, um, looked... People don't really care about you, and you're seen as the outcast and, you know, friend groups like separate and, um, it can be quite tough in school if you're someone who thinks differently.
[00:03:04] Uh, especially in like exams. Everyone's, you know, in those rows and, and columns and they're all sat there on the tables trying to focus and remember, and I was just there fidgeting and, uh, thinking, "Oh, this isn't a test of knowledge. This is a test of memory." Mm-hmm. And my memory's not great. So, um, you know, I, I got average grades in exams, wasn't the best at them, but I realized it was because it was a structure that was designed for the normal people in life.
[00:03:28] It was designed for everyone else. But thinking differently was actually my superpower in a way. You, you mentioned Dodging Story, we'll go back to the speed thing. Um, it felt like after, after many years of feeling like it was a bit crap to think differently, uh, I realized it was actually a, a strength. So yeah, as a, as a business owner now, as, as an entrepreneur, I've, I've leaned into it, and I've created a business where I have a, a quite neurodivergent team who all think differently as well, and they're always proactively messaging.
[00:03:57] You know, I'll get a message from one of them at 11 o'clock at night, "Hey Jack, what about if we did this for our client?" And I'm like, "Yes, brilliant." 'Cause if you were just doing the 9:00 to 5:00, clocking in and out, thinking the same as everyone else, you probably wouldn't have that level of proactivity to, you know, to, to go that extra mile and to think differently.
[00:04:13] Some people do, and it's wonderful, but, um, yeah. It's just I've, I've rambled for far too long now. I'm, I'm s- No,
[00:04:19] Speaker 2: you haven't. It's fascinating. You sound like a bit of an old soul, Jack, with the, the apple trees and the foraging and the, and the woodlands. Would that be fair to say?
[00:04:27] Speaker: I, yeah, I think so. I mean, I do like 1920s jazz, so you know- Ah, nice
[00:04:31] and that's literally like, what, 70 years before I was born, but hey.
[00:04:35] Speaker 2: School is, um, school's a funny place, isn't it? It i- it is really difficult, especially, yeah, like you said, you go from a little bit of freedom as you're younger, and then you go into this structured place. And I remember being similar to you, so I, I, you know, was selling, like, haircuts, you know, when I was in primary school.
[00:04:50] I couldn't cut hair, but it was a way to, like, you know, earn some extra pocket money. Or you could buy those little sherbet tubes from the, the sweet shop, and I'd save up my pocket money and buy loads of them and sell them around the schoolyard. And I remember getting in trouble, um, for it. Whereas now I hope attitudes have changed a little bit and they'd see it as, you know, enterprising and entrepreneurial.
[00:05:09] But at the time it was, um, yeah, I was trying to make a quick buck. But I think thinking outside the box is definitely, definitely a superpower, and I think- You know, leaning into it is, is a great attitude to have. But a lot of people don't get to that attitude until a little bit later in life. So how, how early were you...
[00:05:25] Where were you in your school journey where you were like, "Do you know what? This is, this is good thing. I'm t- I'm gonna lean hard into this"?
[00:05:31] Speaker: Um, as soon as I started seeing a few pennies come in, that was when I realized it was a good idea. Um, but then society, you know, I... If you were to plot my love-hate relationship with doing things differently on a graph, it would be like one of those sine waves that goes up and down.
[00:05:45] Um, you know, at the, at the bottom you've got the societal line of like, uh, this is what everyone else does. This is the, the classic nine-to-five, the classic way of thinking, the classic career path in school. You go to school, you go to college, then you go to uni, then get a job, then you retire, then you die.
[00:05:59] That's so boring and so linear. Um, but then I'd go, "No, I'm gonna go do something else." Then I'm gonna go, "Ah, but I better go back and earn some income." And then, "Oh, no, let me go do something else." And then, "No." So that's been my whole life trajectory, but always pulling me towards that self-employed thing. Um- Yeah
[00:06:15] but in school, like you said, Sherbet Dip Dabs, right? Were they called Dip Dabs where you were?
[00:06:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, we had Dip Dabs, yeah. That
[00:06:21] Speaker: was it. And then, um, I had a friend who bought Maryland cookies, and he'd buy and sell those. Um, but the idea of a school tuck shop was brilliant because it's like a bunch of kids being entrepreneurial.
[00:06:31] Usually when the teacher comes around, they pack up all their stuff and run off, you know. Um, and it feels a bit like the dodgy guy with the trench coat selling watches, like trying to buy all these watches. But, uh, it was... Yeah, it was cool. There were a couple of kids who did that in my school, in Chepstow.
[00:06:44] Um, and sadly, yeah, I, I don't know that attitudes have changed. I wish they would. Mm. But I, I imagine that maybe teachers are still a little bit, like, skeptical of anything that breaks the mold
[00:06:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're probably right there, and it's, it is, um, sad. And one observation I had in school as well, and I don't know, and I, I know you've worked with, with schools as well, so we'll, we'll get into that.
[00:07:05] But the attitude of you, you're kind of pushed towards the thing that you're good at, but the thing that you're good at isn't necessarily the thing that you like doing or are passionate about. Yeah. So you get, you know, if you're good at maths, you get pushed towards that. But you might actually really like, you know, creating art or whatever it is, but not, may not be seen as good at that.
[00:07:24] So you're, you're pushed in different directions. And I think that needs to change a little bit 'cause you can, you can learn the skills to be good and make a living out of something you're passionate about, and not necessarily go into the things that you're naturally good at, which, yeah, it was always bizarre to me.
[00:07:38] Speaker: It's true. Yeah, that's the point. Like, when, when will it be that people start to accept, like, their D- the DNA, like, of every human makes them naturally attuned to certain traits, right? Like, my, my dad's good at maths, but I'm not, for example. Um, but he also is quite a creative person, but he's never really honed that skill 'cause he's good at maths.
[00:07:57] Um, so yeah, there's, uh, to be fair, he, he also does sign writing and, and there's that element of creativity. But it's, it's this idea that, um- Yeah, you've just made me think about something, which I'm gonna have to explore later, I think. But like nature versus nurture, if you're good at one thing and school forces you down a path towards that one thing, um, then what...
[00:08:15] Is that thing necessarily what you wanna do? And if it isn't, and you're bad at that thing that you wanna do, but you wanna become good at it- Yeah ... surely school should make you go to the thing that you want to do.
[00:08:25] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a huge thing. I, I'm, I'm always a bit bitter about it actually, 'cause I really enjoyed like amateur dramatics and theater and drama and all that stuff.
[00:08:34] But I can't sing, I can't dance, and I'm not very good at acting, but I loved it. Yeah. I absolutely loved it. But because of that, I never got picked for anything, and I lost interest eventually because- Ah ... you know, I wasn't, I wasn't getting selected, so I kind of went down the path of the things that, yeah, I know I can do quite easily 'cause I'm good at, which is, is sad really, isn't it?
[00:08:50] Like, you know. Yeah.
[00:08:51] Speaker: I mean, hey- Yeah ... never know, with these podcasts and stuff, that's some kind of like, not acting per se, but it's putting yourself out there.
[00:08:56] Speaker 2: An output. So. Yeah, exactly, and I think you do find ways to do that as you grow up, don't you, to, to release that creativity or whatever it is that you've been, you know, repressing, I suppose, um, throughout your, your life.
[00:09:05] You've, um, you've mentioned about the, you know, the apples and the sort of like, you know, seeds of entrepreneurship that were, were growing. Did you have, um, you know, role models around you that were running their own business? Did you always want to do that? Or was it, you know, I'm gonna go to university, get a job, 'cause that's the way, you know, that's the way it's done?
[00:09:21] Speaker: Um, I actually didn't, no. Looking back, I, I can't think of anyone between the age... Well, until I was about like 22-ish maybe, um, there wasn't anyone I knew who had done the entrepreneur thing. And by that I mean, you know, just thinking differently. And, uh, apart from business owners, but even then I still saw that they were part of a system, part of...
[00:09:42] I'm, I'm gonna sound like I'm in the Matrix now, but they were part of, you know, the system. And, um, I, yeah, no, I d- I didn't have any, any role models, which is a bit of a, a shame. I mean, I've mentioned my dad, you know, he's, he's a lovely guy and, and, and an absolute role model for, um, just how to be a good person in life.
[00:09:57] Um, but he, apart from the last 10 years, he was always working the same job. You know, he was not a role model for that, but a, a very much, uh, a role model for just, you know, life in general. But-
[00:10:09] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
[00:10:09] Speaker: No. No, no entrepreneurial role models. Uh, I did meet a guy when I went self-employed in 2017, um, met a guy in Bristol called Jamie, who had already bought and, uh, sorry, set up and then sold two businesses, both doing really admirable things like caring for the elderly, um, and, uh, some kind of property venture for, with his dad as well.
[00:10:30] But, um, when I started working with him, he worked for, uh, uh, he'd made his own team, a little company. Um, and then after I, I left, he then sold the company to Life Fitness for under a million, just, just under a million. So he's doing very well for himself. But again, he's like two years older than me. Um- Wow
[00:10:46] and yeah, just lovely, lovely role model to have. Would've been great if I'd had one like that at the age of like 15
[00:10:53] Speaker 2: or something. Little bit earlier. Yeah. Yeah, I, I was the same. Yeah, I was surrounded by people who'd gone into, like, teaching or nursing or, or whatever, and, uh, and had done that. So working for yourself was such an alien thing.
[00:11:04] And actually, you're right. Like, it was the same thing. You saw people on TV or people that owned businesses in the community, but they were always, like, old geezers, and you were like, "How... You must have... How did you get there?" It felt so far away from anything attainable that it wasn't, yeah, didn't feel like an option at all.
[00:11:21] Speaker: That's a really good point. Yeah, like I, I, I only realized this about five years ago, but, um, I, I'm 34 now, and, uh, I started to think in this mindset of, you know all those, like, old geezers, all those rich people who are, who are, like, yeah, they're sort of near retirement, and they're, they're packing up. Um, it only just occurred to me that they weren't born like that.
[00:11:39] They, around about the time of age 30, they were in a similar position to me. And they, when you look at them as their most successful self, like m- I don't know, 40, 50, 60, um, then you think, "Ha." But they didn't just jump. They had to do all the hard work to get there. So now is actually, I'm not behind in life.
[00:11:59] I'm just, I'm at that stage they were. I'm just gonna, you know, actually build my way up now.
[00:12:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really key point, 'cause I think we get fed so much, don't we now, like through social media and the like, about all these really young people who come out and they like, you know, "I started a business when I was, yeah, 18, and now I'm a gazillionaire at the age of 30."
[00:12:21] Naming no names. The obvious ones come to mind. Yeah. Um, and you, you were kind of fed that. But it feels like they must have some sort of, you know, strange skill or superpower that they've been able to do that, and that, that's not normal. Yeah. Whereas, you know, actually you're right. You go through periods of invention, and if you look at like statistics of successful business owners, they have been through four, five different versions of themselves, different businesses, and yeah, 50, 60 sometimes when they're completely pivoting and going into something brand new.
[00:12:50] Um, and I think we need to remember that bit, 'cause sometimes we feel too old, don't we? And be like, "Oh, it's too, it's too late for me. I can't... Possible."
[00:12:57] Speaker: And actually, no. I've, uh... There's a, a woman I work with, uh, who was in her mid-50s, and she's bought and sold four businesses and, you know, m- she's American, multimillionaire.
[00:13:06] Um, and she's doing very well for herself. But it, it, it's exactly as you said. It's that different periods of her life, like one was property, one was finance, now it's sports. Mm-hmm. Totally different. Yeah. She's reinvented herself at every stage, and she's like almost started from square one every single time.
[00:13:21] Um, but she's done it. And you know, now she's like mid-50s, and she's probably still gonna have like two or three, four businesses ahead of her, you know?
[00:13:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that is a pretty typical trait of, of an entrepreneur or someone who ends up being really successful, is that, um, constant reinvention, needing something new to work on, something exciting to work on, and not being scared of going from different industries.
[00:13:45] Because if you're curious enough and you're willing to learn along the way, you know, th- there's, you don't have to be hemmed in by the thing that you were good at, um- Yeah, yeah ... initially. You know? The, the world's open to you, definitely. '
[00:13:55] Speaker: Cause then you can become good at the new thing, as long as you have enough drive and interest in it.
[00:13:59] Yeah.
[00:13:59] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what, what did the beginnings of your early career look like then? What, what did you wanna be when you grew up?
[00:14:07] Speaker: Um, I ask that question to so many people, and I've, um... Yeah, I, I've yet to... Well, I've had it asked m- me about three or four times. My answer changes depending on like, uh- Depending on how I feel really.
[00:14:18] Um, when I was a kid, uh, my dad really loved football, so I, I loved, like, I, I loved, um, playing with the ma- football magazines. Like cutting them out, being creative, like taking snippets of, uh, of footballers and making collages and stuff like that. And I never got into football, but I thought that I really liked football because of that.
[00:14:36] Turns out I really loved the creativity and the I'm making a scrapbook, and that kind of like sketching idea. Um, and turns out it was an early form of graphic design, and I didn't realize, and I, I ended up, uh, getting very lucky with school. I went to Wyedean in, in Chepstow, um, which to anyone else who might know Wyedean, is where J.K.
[00:14:56] Rowling went, which is kind of cool. Oh, no
[00:14:58] Speaker 2: way.
[00:14:58] Speaker: Yeah. So technically I can say I went to Hogwarts.
[00:15:01] Speaker 2: That's cool. I like that.
[00:15:03] Speaker: Yeah. Uh, she didn't have a great time there, sadly, but, um, the library was named after her, and I spent a lot of time in the library. Um, but yeah, I, um, when I was, uh, about, well, 10, 12, I wanted to, like I say, I was picking apples, going out into the woods, building dens and stuff like that.
[00:15:18] Had no idea what I wanted to do in life, but knew it would just be completely different. It would be random and just had this inkling that, um, yeah, I didn't wanna just be sat at a desk every day. Ironic, now that's what I'm doing. Um, but- Yeah ... yeah, it's just a, a way to do it. But I mean, you know, got a decent desk.
[00:15:34] I've made a nice little office. There's Lego, you know, so, um, it's I, I think when I was a little bit older, I wanted to be... I saw the TV show Firefly around about age, like 16. Um, and then I decided at 16, which is far too late, I wanted to be a space cowboy because Firefly's a brilliant show. Um, and there are no cows in space, but, um, it's this idea of a, a ragtag group of people.
[00:15:58] There's like nine of them. They live on a spaceship, and they go around the galaxy, um, trying to survive, basically. Just get enough... Like, do a job, get enough fuel and food, and then do another job and keep flying. That's their mission. Um, but the whole premise of that show was a small group who are... They're, they're not family, but they're friends and, and, and unlikely ragtag crew that become family over the course of the series.
[00:16:23] Um, and I realized that was something I really wanted, that, like, idea to, to choose your own tribe, your own group of people. Um, and also to be free. The idea of, like, y- they lived in a spaceship. They could go anywhere. Uh, they took on jobs on, like, tropical planets and, like, desert planets and, uh, big cities and everything.
[00:16:41] And, you know, take away the sci-fi aspect, all of that still applies to real life. So it's that freedom, the freedom to travel, the freedom to build a little team and a crew and a business and something you can explore the world and just have freedom. You know? That's- It's such a intangible thing, but the ability to just go, "I don't have to check my bank balance every day.
[00:17:04] I'm just gonna... There's a conference I wanna go to in America. I'm gonna book it. Not a problem. You know, I'm gonna spend a week over in a different part of the world to explore this business idea, maybe make a few connections, and then come home." That, that idea for me is, is, is it. You know, it's, um, as well as the idea of spending weekends and, and downtime, uh, out in my, like, workshop, my garage.
[00:17:26] Um, I, I've yet to make it into a workshop, but that will come with time. Um, but just woodwork, doing, like, building things out of wood and, uh, maybe even kitting out a camper van, like stripping it all back. I've already done two. Um, I've bought and sold two camper vans, kitted them out. Um, didn't make very much profit, but it wasn't about the profit, it was about the process and working- Mm
[00:17:45] with my hands and doing something that isn't on a screen. Um, yeah, just building something tangible. And whether that's in the form of a business or in the form of a, a camper van or even- Mm ... you know, stuff like wooden furniture for the garden. It doesn't have to be grandiose, but it's just something that I can call mine, that I've done, that I've accomplished, and is somewhat creative.
[00:18:06] Speaker 2: You, you're talking, um, a lot about it's that flexing that creative muscle, isn't it, really, in whatever form that is. But you're also talking about control, really. Control over your time- Yeah ... where you spend time, and who you spend it with, which is really interesting because that's the part that you don't get, isn't it, by the traditional sort of 9:00 to 5:00 job, and why a lot of people want to go into, you know, working for themselves because, you know, they think that that's what they're gonna get.
[00:18:33] And I'm, I'm saying they think that's what they're gonna get, because when you do eventually go into running your own business, you find that you actually end up- often having less time. Um, 'cause, you know, because of the time and effort you have to spend in, in that business and, and building it, and building, building that team.
[00:18:48] Would you say that you have that now, or are you still wrestling with that bit of freedom and control?
[00:18:53] Speaker: Um, I'm getting there. So but it's a hell of a lot different... My life looks different now than it did a year ago. Even, um, yeah, to, uh... Okay, hang on. What, what month are we now? July 2026. Yeah, so May 2025 I left my last job, and I loved it.
[00:19:09] I loved that job. Um, it was for a company that are really, really good. They, they sent me around... To be fair, they gave me as many aspects of my freedom as I wanted. It was, uh, a nine-to-five, which is not free, but it was also, "We're gonna send you out to America, uh, for a photo shoot, or for a focus group, or, um, uh, we're gonna get you to do a bunch of research in a different country."
[00:19:30] And then I'd fly back, and that was wonderful, especially using the business card to buy your lunch. That was really nice. Um, but, uh, and when it's, you know, someone else's business, it then... When I, when I use my own business card now for buying my own lunch or whatever, um, or, you know, expensing petrol or something, it's not quite the same, 'cause it's still technically my money- Mm
[00:19:49] um, within my business. But when it, when you're in a job and it's the business card, it's, it's like free stuff. It's great.
[00:19:53] Speaker 2: Yeah. There are pros and cons there, definitely, aren't there? Yeah.
[00:19:55] Speaker: Yeah. Um, but it's that, you're right, that control of, um, of, yeah, leaving that job that I really loved. And I, I... You know, most people leave a, a terrible job and they're really glad to be rid of it.
[00:20:06] I wasn't. It was actually one of the difficult, most difficult decisions because I loved the job so much. But Storytold and, and what I'm doing now was calling me more because of that element of financial freedom eventually. Uh, time freedom for the, you know, the first five years of the business, non-existent.
[00:20:24] Mm. But after that point, um, so basically by 2030, I'm, I'm gonna start changing and, and maybe doing like four-hour days. Uh, sorry, not four-hour days. That'd be great. Um, four, four-day weeks, I think. Um, but I know that it's six-day weeks, um, 12 hours a day until that point. Um-
[00:20:41] Speaker 2: Oh, me and the days. Yeah.
[00:20:42] Speaker: Yeah. I, I did...
[00:20:43] Like you said, I did meet someone recently who said, "I really wanna start my own business." "Oh, yeah? Why is that?" "Well, 'cause I wanna work less. You know, the 37 and a half hours a week is just not for me." I'm like-
[00:20:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a myth.
[00:20:56] Speaker: Yeah. So y- if you wanna, you know, only work 37 and a half hours a week or, or less, just go down to a part-time job, you know?
[00:21:02] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:21:03] Speaker: Don't-
[00:21:04] Speaker 2: That's the best
[00:21:04] Speaker: bet. Yeah. 'Cause 6- Yeah ... I'm, I'm on at least 60 hours a week for my business. You can probably tell by the bags under my eyes. Um-
[00:21:10] Speaker 2: You're in, you're in good company, Jack. You're in good company, I promise.
[00:21:14] Speaker: And that's it, though. I bet you wouldn't change it for the world, though, because it's your own thing, right?
[00:21:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. Th- this is it, and, uh, the, the reason and purpose behind what you're doing is different, isn't it? Um, and, and you have different- You know, energy levels, I think, when you're, you're doing it for yourself, definitely.
[00:21:31] Speaker: For sure.
[00:21:31] Speaker 2: Um, take us back to that job then, 'cause it does sound amazing, and what was the, the trigger point, I guess, for going, "Right, I'm gonna go it alone now"?
[00:21:39] 'Cause you said it was a difficult decision, so there must have been a tipping point or something that you were like, "Either screw this, I'm going," or, you know, "It's time," or whatever it was.
[00:21:48] Speaker: For, yeah, for me, it was very much the latter. Like, I had started posting on LinkedIn every day. Uh, during, you know, like, the evenings and the, uh, the first thing in the morning, I'd do the, uh, like an hour in the morning of just a bit of research.
[00:22:00] Mm-hmm. Then I'd do 9:00 to 5:00 in the job, and then after 5:00, um, I'd do 5:00 to 9:00, uh, and just for my own stuff, researching, posting, writing on LinkedIn, learning as much as I could about this platform that I had no idea about. It's exactly what you said at the start of the call. You can focus on something you're not very good at but you enjoy, and then become good at it.
[00:22:21] Yeah. And that's what I did. And, um, within six months, I, of posting every single day, I'd gone from 740 followers... It's not even like I started strong. Like, I started very weak on LinkedIn. Over the last 12 years, I'd amassed 700 followers of friends from family, and I didn't even care about LinkedIn. I d- I didn't know what it was.
[00:22:41] I just thought, "Well, this seems to be the place to be. Everyone seems to be doing this, so why not? I'll give it a try." Um, which is counterintuitive to how I normally think. If someone's... If there's, like, a crowd of people running one way, I'm normally running the other way.
[00:22:53] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:53] Speaker: But, um, I thought, "You know what?
[00:22:54] There's a reason this crowd is, is on LinkedIn, so I'm gonna see what happens." And I started posting on there, but I started posting nonsense, you know, totally different stuff. I'd see all the trends and all the people posting the same stuff, and I decided I'm gonna be different. Obviously, I'm gonna do the same sort of thing, but I'm gonna do it in a different way.
[00:23:13] And over time, over six months, I went th- from the lofty heights of, uh, 740 followers to 1,000, but it took six months to get there, and I could have given up. I could have thought, "This is just not worth it," you know? And also, none of them were monetizable. They were just people who'd said, "I like what Jack's doing.
[00:23:33] I'm gonna press a button." Mm-hmm. None of that became funding, but, um, I could s- it was all, like, tiny, tiny little validations. In every single time the number went up, I thought, "Okay, I'm onto something here. I don't quite know what it is yet, but something's happening." And after that point, after six months of, uh, doing it constantly, suddenly something clicked.
[00:23:51] I started, uh, doing things differently, and everything grew. Suddenly I was at 2,000, then 5,000, then 10,000, and now, what? 18 months later, I've got seven- Mm-hmm ... uh, 60 thousand or so followers. I- just a bit less, 59,000. Um, but it's like that's a whole football stadium of people who have looked at what I do on LinkedIn and go, "I like this."
[00:24:14] And that's, that's baffling to me. Um, again, it's, it's, it's monetizing the right, like, people within that audience, and that's, um, you know, like some of those have become clients, and it's... I wish I had 60,000 clients. That'd be nice. But it's those key connections that are part of the audience. And I, I think this is, like, my 11th or 12th podcast because of this work.
[00:24:34] Um, I've had countless opportunities to go and teach what I do, uh, in colleges. Like there's a college in Cardiff. They've asked me to come along. I think I've been there three or four times. Um, but none of that would've happened if it wasn't for LinkedIn, if it wasn't for sticking it, sticking with it even when it was- Yeah
[00:24:49] like, pointless, you know?
[00:24:50] Speaker 2: And what, what was that thought? Because you said, like, you know, "People seem to be doing this. I wonder what it's all about." What was the purpose for you behind it, going, "I'm gonna join it and I'm gonna start posting"? Like, what was the, the outcome, the plan?
[00:25:04] Speaker: Um, you're right. Actually, I forgot-
[00:25:06] Speaker 2: Was it just talking about and finding out, like, what, what this all was all about?
[00:25:08] Or were you like, "I'm gonna see if I can get clients from this"? And if it was that, what, what work were you doing? What were you promoting on there?
[00:25:16] Speaker: Yeah, I think you're right. The first thing I put on there actually got me in a trouble with my, my job, because they're a high-end luxury website agency for private schools.
[00:25:26] And I had said that, you know, on my LinkedIn, I work at this company. Um, and I was then posting on my own LinkedIn, I'll do a, a whole website rebrand for 995 quid. And people were like, "Okay, that's kind of great, Jack. I'm interested. Let's talk about it." Um, but my company then said, "Yeah, you probably shouldn't be posting on that."
[00:25:45] Um, because they, they weren't tr- they weren't trying to control my LinkedIn, but they were wary that I represented the company on LinkedIn. Um, so we had a discussion about it, and eventually we agreed, okay, well, I'll set up a different LinkedIn account for my work email for that job, um, and I can just...
[00:26:01] You know, that can just exist and people can find me through there. Um, and I'll do my own separate one as Jack, the self-employed person. Fine. Um, so then that was a nice separation. That-
[00:26:09] Speaker 2: I wonder, I wonder which one you put the most effort into.
[00:26:12] Speaker: It's a good question. Um, yeah. And so eventually, of course, the one that I, I evolved, yeah, that grew and grew and grew.
[00:26:17] And so, um, it started off as just a bit of an experiment, but you're right, underneath it all, I think was the idea that I can get some extra income, I can get some, you know, side hustle money. Mm. Um, but also just, like, enjoy being creative on my own terms, not just in the confines of the nine-to-five. Yeah. Um, again, cannot fault the job enough, and there wasn't one particular moment where I was like, "Screw this," you know?
[00:26:38] It was very much, actually, I wanna do both, and I, I want that... I just, I, I want more out of life, you know? Um-
[00:26:44] Speaker 2: Mm ...
[00:26:44] Speaker: I, yeah, I did find that after a while, the nine-to-five structure encourages you to not take risks. It encourages you to clock off at 5:00, and then you don't think about work. Yeah. You know? And I miss that.
[00:26:57] I, I miss the idea of thinking about work until 10:00 at night. I miss the, I miss the, yeah, the constant drive, and it somehow, that, even though it was a job I loved, that had sapped that away from me, so- Yeah. That- I think that's what I was keen to do.
[00:27:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, um, that's really interesting that it was LinkedIn as well of, of all places, because you or I...
[00:27:19] Maybe I'm making a huge assumption, but, and I come from a creative background as well, so LinkedIn is probably the last place that I was thinking of, you know- Yeah ... 15, 20 years ago. It was, you know, it was the- Boring. Yeah. It was, it was the more cra- the visual platforms. Um, not sponsored by any, so I won't name them.
[00:27:34] You can though, if anyone would like to. Um, you can, you know, be more visual, whereas LinkedIn was, I felt, was very businessy and dry, so that wasn't what I was focusing on. Um, however, you're right, I'm in the same camp as you now, and that is an important place to be, and I, I do wanna get into that a little bit more.
[00:27:50] Um, but just for people who are listening, because I don't think we've quite answered it yet, what i- what is it that you were actually selling as a job on LinkedIn? Was it your graphic design skills, um, web development, things like that? That's what you were going for?
[00:28:01] Speaker: Yeah, I've, um, as well as the various nine-to-fives, I've always been a, a designer of some description.
[00:28:07] Um, and I do that in my freelance work as well. So my nine-to-fives over the last, like, 10 years have been app designer, web designer, um, UI designer, UX designer, and then, um, yeah, senior designer at a, a private school design company. Um, but I was also doing my own, uh, freelance website building company. So I would, uh, do all the, uh, designs for the websites.
[00:28:30] I'd then build them on Webflow. Love Webflow, it's brilliant. Um, and then I'd, I'd publish them and host them. And there are hosting companies out there that charge, like, 600 quid a month just to host your website, and their profit margins are insane. I think it probably costs them 20 quid a month. Mm-hmm. So that's crazy, and I just thought that's...
[00:28:48] I, I, I was very vocal in calling that out, um, and saying to potential clients, "Look, you could go and do this with a big studio that they'll charge, like, an absolute arm and a leg for hosting, or you get a little freelancer like me who will charge you exactly what it costs to host." Mm-hmm. So if I pay Webflow 25 quid, I might ask for 30 quid a month, you know?
[00:29:07] Yeah. And that is, that's literally the, the extra fiver for me to generate an invoice. But, and I, I shot myself in the foot a little bit with that because that's where you get- I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah. Um, but, uh it then, that, that very, like, um, aggressive sort of, "I don't believe this is right. I'm, I'm on the side of the customer," um, did shoot me in the foot as a business owner.
[00:29:25] But, um, yeah, it's... I was advertising websites and marketing, and even, um, doing business cards and, you know, brochures and- When, when you, when you're that broad, you don't really talk to anyone, I've realized, and you need to be very specific. And so I've since niched down into, like, specifically building authority on LinkedIn, um, for CEOs of a certain age as well.
[00:29:50] Um, so it's a... Certain age sounds bad, by the way, but it's literally just I've, I've noticed the people who love working with us the most are between 45 and 65. Um, so that's what, where we focus. But yeah, we're now quite niched. But when I started on LinkedIn, while I had a full-time job- Mm-hmm ... it was just seeing if I can...
[00:30:06] I think I wanted to, to give myself the most boring platform to challenge myself and, and see if I could be creative in a space where everyone else is being dull- Yeah ... 'cause again, what's that difference? So.
[00:30:16] Speaker 2: Yeah. Ab- absolutely. And I, I know a lot of people, and I speak to a lot of people who are either absolutely terrified of LinkedIn, don't understand it at all, or treat it as a bit of a, you know, an advertising sales pitch, you know, feed.
[00:30:32] Um, or are really annoyed that people seem to be treating it like Facebook and posting too mu- too many personal, personal things on there. Yeah. I have my own opinion on that, and I, I know what's worked for me. But you mentioned at the beginning about you felt like you were following the trend, which you not, don't normally do by joining LinkedIn, but then you did go against the grain and were trying to be a little bit different in the content that you were posting on there.
[00:30:57] So-
[00:30:57] Speaker: Right ...
[00:30:57] Speaker 2: how, how was that different, and how, how was it... I mean, obviously it was received well because you, you grew in following. But what do you think, how did you approach that differently, and what was the, the reaction?
[00:31:09] Speaker: Um, I saw a load of people posting very, like you said, very serious stuff, very self-promotional, um, almost like adverts, and it was all very bland, very boring, and sometimes something would break through the noise like, uh, I wanna shout out someone else.
[00:31:24] And I'm like, "Oh, this person isn't talking about themself. Okay." Click read more, like understand the post. That's nice, and they were the ones that did well, um, because they're, they're selfless. They're literally using their time and effort to promote someone else, and I thought that's brilliant. That's really good.
[00:31:39] Um, and that's what I've, I've realized graphic design, that's what I've been doing my entire career is you design stuff or you write stuff or you create stuff that helps other people. Mm. And that's all, all we do. Obviously, yeah, sometimes we do our own branding and stuff, but ultimately when you're working for clients, we are just promoting others.
[00:31:58] So that's how I then approached LinkedIn. I then thought, okay, how can I serve other people on this platform by not making it about me? By just taking what I know, uh, what I'm learning, because again, I jumped into LinkedIn completely fresh. Uh, fish out of water, trying to understand how to actually do this.
[00:32:18] Um, but yeah, I ended up, uh, swimming against the, the gra- I'm using so many metaphors here. Uh, go-
[00:32:23] Speaker 2: It's my fault. I threw that one in.
[00:32:25] Speaker: Sorry. Go- going against the grain, um, but, and swimming against the tide. That one, yeah.
[00:32:29] Speaker 2: There we go. That makes sense.
[00:32:31] Speaker: By, um, when everyone else is posting all this stuff, I started saying something like, uh, I'd put a picture of me with...
[00:32:38] There was a sign in Norway, I think, when I went on holiday, and it said Asserton, like A-S-S-E-R-T-O-N. And I, it was a pointy sign, and I stood next to it like this and, um, made a point of saying like, "This is me. I'm, I'm being a bit of an asserton." Like, it's when, when you're different, when you aren't afraid to let people have a little bit of a laugh at you, you remove that ego.
[00:32:58] All of a sudden it doesn't matter. It takes away the power of judgment from other people because-
[00:33:04] Speaker 2: Exactly ...
[00:33:04] Speaker: you're the one in, in, like, the driving seat. You're the one saying, "Hey, I'm just here to deliver a message." Soon as I put that picture up, I then delivered the message next to it, and then it grew and grew and grew.
[00:33:13] Um, my designer, after a while I got on a, a member of staff full-time, which was massive milestone for me. Um, I actually had a full-time employee, and I was grinning from ear to ear when I gave her her contract and she signed it and everything on the first day. Um, and then we even took a little selfie together, put it up on LinkedIn, and I, I just said, you know, "I just got my first employee," and that was wicked.
[00:33:34] That felt a bit selfish because it was saying I just got my first employee, but it was promoting her, so it was fine. Um, but- This, yeah, the more, the, the way that I swim against the grain is by using LinkedIn to promote other people and to be a little bit stupid, you know? Like, deliberately so. With, with a underlying, uh, tone of expertise and now what I've learned and, and have built up.
[00:33:56] But it's the idea that you can use your own personality on LinkedIn to promote others, to get your message across, um, to not be so stuck up, not so rigid, you know? Um, and it's great to, as soon as you, you think like this, it's not about me, it's about message- That- ... all of a sudden it's like, great, how can I make myself look a bit stupid?
[00:34:15] That's gonna get people's eyes on. That's gonna get engagement. That's gonna make people wanna book m- book a call. Like, my tagline, um, says, don't... You know how most people say, "Click to book a call," or, "View my website," or something boring like that? Fuck that. You know? Um, I don't know how PC we can be on school, by the way, so I'm thinking- No, go for it.
[00:34:34] Go for your life. Um, in that case, fuck that. Um, the idea of something different really appealed to me. Mm. So I ch- I changed my tagline thing, my link to say, "Don't click if you're boring." And I had so many people clicking it, so many people DM-ing me saying, "I'm not boring, so I thought I'd say hello." Great, let's start a conversation.
[00:34:50] Speaker 2: Names, uh- A
[00:34:50] Speaker: few of those became clients within the first couple of weeks. It was amazing, so.
[00:34:54] Speaker 2: Ah. Yeah. I, I, I really love that, and I, I think that, um, what we're talking about, I will ask you about Storytold, actually, and what, what the business does. But the, the idea of LinkedIn does terrify people, and I don't quite...
[00:35:08] I don't think lots of people understand how to treat it. Yeah. And I'd spoken to people for... 'Cause I've, I've had the old cronies and curmudgeons slide into my DMs on LinkedIn and be like, "Why are you sharing posts about your family?" Or, you know, "This isn't Facebook." Like, you know, "Go away. This is a business platform," blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:35:27] Yeah. And you, you will always get those, but really, w- how I try to describe it is, you wouldn't go up to somebody in a networking event and say- I, um, and describe what you do as a business really dryly without having some sort of personality and connection with, with that other person. And I think that we need to do more of that on LinkedIn, and that's the way that you build connections with people.
[00:35:52] So you wouldn't say, "Oh, I build strategies to create synergies between business." You'd be like, "Oh, hi, I'm Dave, and I, you know, blah, blah," or whatever it is. But there's a person in front of you. Yeah. Um, and I think bringing a lot of that into your, your profiles on LinkedIn and all the other platforms is, is really valuable because people like to work with people- Yeah
[00:36:09] that they like and connect with. And if they can't connect with you, then they're not gonna, they're not gonna build that trust with you. And I think that that window is that, that post is the first window into who you actually are as a person for them to feel comfortable enough to want to come and have an actual, you know, one-on-one conversation with you.
[00:36:27] Um, but what we're talking about really is being a little bit more vulnerable rather than the whole shiny exterior that people like to present on LinkedIn. But I understand why CEOs of a certain age, as you've described them, not me are afraid of that because it's not a natural thing to do, is it, in that, in that business sort of setting at all?
[00:36:51] It's uncomfortable
[00:36:53] Speaker: It really is. It's uncomfortable, but it's like, um, th- I know that the things that make me uncomfortable, I need to do more of because that's how I grow. And, um, we had a absolutely wonderful, uh, lady that we, we work with. Um, she posted something very personal, uh, on our, on our request.
[00:37:08] You know, she started working with us, um, over a year ago, and she shared something very... I won't share it here, but she shared something very personal about her family, um, and a, a, a disease that has happened to someone she loved. And, um, and yeah, when she shared that, instantly 4,800% increase in engagement, in followers.
[00:37:29] Um, like thr- I think sort of 700 comments or something, um, on one post. It's insane. But this, uh, because everyone was rushing to give their support. No one was saying like, "Sod off, this is, this isn't Facebook," you know, "Stop whingeing." It was very much, um, which again, totally wrong way to deal with things.
[00:37:46] You know, the people who say that are idiots, quite frankly. Um, but the, and they're just, they're just there to try and provoke a reaction. But, um, when she shared this personal thing, it was wonderful because an- a flood of support came her way, and she had like three or four different new like clients booked because they could see, okay, she's a real person.
[00:38:06] She's struggling with stuff, but she's still also an expert at what she does. That's impressive. It makes me like her more. I'm gonna book a call with her. Mm-hmm. So it's almost like the more superhero you are, the more like, "Yeah, look at me, I'm so great," people don't give a shit. But the more, "Okay, guys, this, uh, this is a real personal post.
[00:38:25] I'm struggling. Here's how. Um, this is what's going on in life." So my message is, if you see someone who is struggling, don't berate them. Just accept that they're going through something and, you know, you can maybe reach out and help them. And then all of a sudden, the person who posts that is very humble, very humility-driven, um, and they're putting the message above themselves, and counterintuitively, it y- it promotes them even more because they seem to be more real.
[00:38:54] Like you said, I, I connected with you because you shared that, um, the, the failures of business owners, uh, in your, your speech in Cardiff. Um, and if you'd have just stood up the front going, "Look how great I am," we wouldn't be chatting, you know? Because- Mm ... we're tired of people being all, "Look at me." We just want to connect with real humans.
[00:39:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you're r- you're absolutely right. And you know, when, when we did close the business end of 2023, that, that first LinkedIn post was quite uncomfortable to write because you feel like- I'm telling the world that I'm shit. You know, I'm sharing this big, like, personal failure-
[00:39:26] Speaker: Yeah ...
[00:39:26] Speaker 2: on a business channel, and my first thought was everyone is gonna, like, I'm just gonna be discredited now.
[00:39:31] There's gonna be no, um, you know, I've got no credibility left. No one's go- gonna wanna speak to me, buy from me, all the rest of it. And the opposite was true because it was a case of people outpouring for support, like you said, just saying, "Oh my God, I've been through this as well. Um, I can really connect with what you're going through.
[00:39:47] Um, happy to chat," you know, like, and, and offer support. And the amount of doors and opportunities that opened by being really vulnerable about something- Right ... and like was, was just, you know, well, one, it was really quite heartwarming, and second, it was like, oh, okay, people actually want to know the, the people behind the businesses and the, and the actual people behind the brands.
[00:40:05] And now I connect more with the content that I see where someone has said You know, I'm in a great place right now, but here's what it took to get here, you know? This is why I like doing the podcast, because you hear all the gritty stories behind, behind those success stories, rather than the just, "I am fantastic, and I'm a multimillionaire, and here's how I did it."
[00:40:23] You know, that's not, um- Yeah ... that doesn't make me warm to you, you know?
[00:40:25] Speaker: Agreed. Yeah, nobody cares, right? But if all of a sudden you say, "I was a massive underdog, and this is how I changed my way of thinking," or, "This is how I grew." Yeah. It... People love the transformation story as well, the A to B, the rags to riches.
[00:40:40] It's, it's classic. Um, the... There's a book called The Richest Man in Babylon. Um, I've read half of it. I still need to finish it, but again, when you're running a business, you never have time to do all those things you wanna do, like read all the bloody... I've got a whole room in, in the other room with, like, stacks of books.
[00:40:54] Speaker 2: I am the same, yeah.
[00:40:56] Speaker: Yeah. I never bloody read them. But-
[00:40:58] Speaker 2: Yeah ... um,
[00:40:58] Speaker: yeah, I, I s- it's that, that book has a, a theory of, like, why we connect so much with, with these people. And it's because we, we intuit our own journeys onto their journeys. When we, when we read a post or a thing about someone fucking up or, um, someone who has, has failed or, uh, something that's not the perfection that we expect, instantly it makes us, A, emote to them, but B, go, "That could be me, and they've come back.
[00:41:27] They've bounced back. How have they bounced back?" Like, I wanna learn from this person who's got everything wrong, because they're proving that they're now doing something right. So h- yeah. It's that- You know- ... that lovely story ...
[00:41:38] Speaker 2: and ultimately, which it will be a nice segue into your, your business name, it is about storytelling.
[00:41:46] Because as humans, we are hardwired to love storytelling, hear stories, you know? Like caveman, campfires, gather around and share, you know, stories and legends and, and myths and all of that. Like, it's- Yeah ... ingrained in us, in human nature. So when we- When we hear stories, especially about like struggles and overcoming adversity and stuff, that is the stuff that literally connects human beings and builds communities.
[00:42:09] And that's, that's not fluff, is it? It's actual fact.
[00:42:13] Speaker: It is, yeah. Um,
[00:42:14] Speaker 2: yeah, so rather than the sort of, you know, blank statements and facts and data that you see on LinkedIn especially- Yeah ... if we bring in a lot more storytelling, you know, you, you are just going to naturally connect with people a bit more.
[00:42:26] Um, and I'm taking a massive leap here, but I'm guessing that's where the business name came from.
[00:42:31] Speaker: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Um, I went through so many iterations that felt quite selfish. There was like, um... I had a Google, uh, like a Keep notes on my phone, and I just like bullet point, no, bullet point, no. Like, probably 100 or so different names, um, all related to design and, and even, like I say, the selfish ones including part of my name, like Jack Design- Yep
[00:42:50] um, and stuff like that. They were all terrible. Um, and they, they didn't have that soul. They didn't have that heart. They were me related, but again, no one cares about me, and that's fine because I haven't given them anything to care about. But as soon as I hit the, the phrase Storytold, um, I was like-
[00:43:09] Story. Get, hang on. Storytold. Get Your Storytold. Perfect. Done. I, I just stopped and thought, "Right, I'm gonna buy the URL. It's sorted." Um- When
[00:43:15] Speaker 2: you know, you know.
[00:43:15] Speaker: Exactly. And, um, I've, I unfortunately we're, we're the other way around, but I, I imagine this, that blue wall behind you is echoed behind the computer here.
[00:43:24] Um, so I've got like two beige walls and two blue walls. Um, and I've got the Storytold logo right up there. Um, because every day I look at it and I'm just like, "This is my purpose. This is what I'm doing." And it's really reassuring because, yeah, um, you're right. This, it feels fluffy and everyone's like, "Oh, I don't wanna tell my story.
[00:43:41] It's kind of boring, you know, it's fluffy. I don't have anything to say," or, "What's the point of this? You know, it's all just marketing, like BS, isn't it?" No. Like, the, um, let's say the lithograph, right, from the 1400s to the 1700s, that was like a, a key bit of technology, and now no one uses it because we've got, uh, we developed typewriters and then printers, and then now all of a sudden, uh, in the last 20 years, printing is going out of fashion and it's more digital, and now there's AI.
[00:44:07] And all these new technologies that evolve over time, ever since, well, the dawn of time really, um, even looking back to like shovels and, and spades that we use for agriculture, and then the plow comes along, and then the plow gets obsolete because we have a combine harvester. And then, you know, in the future I'm sure there'll be GMOs and like, um, sort of, m- uh, in- internal horticulture and stuff like that.
[00:44:28] But the reason I'm mentioning all this is because historically every bit of technology that we've ever had has had its time and then become outdated, and then a new piece of technology comes along. AI is the big thing right now. In 50 years there'll be a new thing or whatever. You know, there'll be a new thing that replaces AI.
[00:44:46] Stories have literally been the, the one consistent thing ever since humanity could read and write. That's it. That's why we have the Bible, you know? It's why we have, um, I'm not a fan of it myself, but it- that's why we have books that have transcended time. That's why we have Shakespeare, um, and why it's so important.
[00:45:03] And so it's not just fluff. It really isn't. It feels like it, but stories are literally how we see the world and share cultural experiences. Like a caveman in Japan or in South America could look at a cave drawing in, uh, England and relate to it. They have no shared culture, like from 10,000 years ago, but if they saw that drawing and they'd be able to see the visual story of like, okay, caveman goes out and hunts mammoth, caveman brings mammoth home, caveman cooks mammoth, you know?
[00:45:35] That-
[00:45:35] Speaker 2: I know what's going on here. Yeah.
[00:45:37] Speaker: Who's up- Yeah. Like, they, they can piece it together and they can tell, ah, yes, there's a story there. Okay. Now I can relate to these people, and then we have something to talk about. Yeah. No shared culture at all. So stories transcend language. They transcend, like, uh, barriers to culture, everything.
[00:45:51] It's wonderful. Um- Yeah ... um, we need more of them.
[00:45:54] Speaker 2: We do. We absolutely do. I've got, um, I've got some thoughts swimming, swimming around my head from conversations I've had with people who are really against sort of being that vulnerable and, and showcasing that side of them behind. So I'm gonna ask them, but it's not me answering them.
[00:46:10] Speaker: Yeah.
[00:46:10] Speaker 2: Um, you mentioned that story about the lady who shared something vulnerable that was happening in, in her life and all's support, but the question, I imagine you get, you get this quite a lot in the business you're in, like it's not relevant to my business at all, so why should I be sharing, you know, that?
[00:46:26] Because ultimately- Yeah ... if I got this correct, we want to be sharing those stories and content on LinkedIn, ultimately, if we're being honest, to build our connections, build our network, so we can build a business, um, and bring in more sales. But if, if you're struggling to figure out, you know, how we say something vulnerable or say something personal in a story, and then somehow relate it back to our expertise or business, like- I suppose two questions.
[00:46:53] Is it relevant to everyone? You know, are there people who, you know, this wouldn't apply to, or certain industries or certain businesses that this wouldn't apply to? Um, and I suppose does it matter? Is it about the connection with the person, and then the sort of business stuff comes later? Like, how, how do you answer that question from that, that person who's that skeptical?
[00:47:12] Speaker: It's a really tough question. Um, and it would probably take a lot of convincing, so it might not be worth it, like, to try and convince that person. But I'll do my best. So, um, the first question was, like, uh, is it relevant, or-
[00:47:24] Speaker 2: If it's, if it's rele- yeah, if the personal thing is not relevant to the business that they're peddling, I guess, on LinkedIn.
[00:47:29] Speaker: That's fair. So, um, it's, like, let's say, um, completely out of the blue, I- I'm recalling like a year ago I had a meeting with someone who their business does chemical products for the manufacturing industry Um, how do you write stories about that? You know, that's like I'm, I'm gonna write a, a story about my own personal life, but somehow say, uh, you know, the pivot halfway through, and that reminded me of this new chemical we have for the manufacturing industry.
[00:47:53] Like, no. Come on. Um-
[00:47:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't work, does it?
[00:47:55] Speaker: No. But, like, it's, it's still that fundamental tenet of I don't care about the product. I know that this is something my business needs. I'm a, I'm a manufacturer, I've got a factory, um, and I know that I wanna save, like, 2p on every order that we place for this particular chemical per bottle.
[00:48:12] That is gonna add up to several thousands. Fine. I'm looking at that from a finance perspective. I'm looking at it from a, like, very logical point of view. But all of a sudden, I have a decision to make. I can try and find the right new supplier, or I can just be browsing LinkedIn one day, see a story that I connect with from someone in a similar industry, and he or she is talking about their, um, like, personal issues.
[00:48:36] They're, they're sharing something that, um, you know, maybe, maybe I've dealt with, that I can relate to, that I can emote with, and all of a sudden I'm engaged with the story. I click their profile. Huh, they, they've got what I need. Okay, interesting. I'm gonna go and chat to them. And then that's how the sale is made.
[00:48:52] So it doesn't have to be that you write the story about the product, because that feels fake. People can see it. But if you are authentic about the story, and then at the very end you can say something like, "By the way, this is what I do. If you're interested, have a look." You know, that is a really engaging way.
[00:49:09] And anyone listening, by the way, um, I've just done it again. The phrase, "By the way," is like gold dust because, um, if you do n- we follow this rule, 95% value in the post is not selling. Write the post with 95% intention to serve other people, to just be the voice for your message. Your message is more important than you, so make it about the, the message.
[00:49:32] 5% at the bottom is, that's for you. That's whatever you can put in. So I will write a post that really helps a lot of people, gives advice, entertains, is a little bit different. Maybe the picture is something where I'm being a little bit quirky or weird. Um, and then the 5% at the end, "By the way, um, I've got a free down-" Again, I'm offering something for free.
[00:49:51] "By the way, I've got a free download that can help you with your business. Click here to get it." And that free download, it continues to give value, but the only thing I ask in return is that they enter their email address and f- and name, and then that becomes a mailing list, and then I can, you know, sell to them, or I can message them.
[00:50:07] I can see who's downloaded it, uh, message them on LinkedIn and say, "Hey, how did you find this resource? Was it useful?" You know, that's all I'm asking. Um, so again, I'm still not selling. But the mistake is when people do that BS thing of like, "I've got this really unrelated story, and then by the way, this is what I learned about business," blah, blah.
[00:50:23] And it's like, no- Yeah ...
[00:50:25] Speaker 2: bog off. This is what... Yeah, babysitting my niece last weekend taught me about running a business. Yeah- Yeah ... you see that all the time. Yeah.
[00:50:30] Speaker: 100%, yeah. Like, when, when, when my niece was, um, you know, counting her toys, I realized how important it is to do proper accounting, and this is why our credit control system is...
[00:50:38] N- no, just go away. Oh.
[00:50:42] Speaker 2: That's funny. Yeah, you do see those a lot, and yeah, it is... It's, it's, um, transparent, isn't it? You can see- Yeah ... um, that they're kind of shoehorning in, in something.
[00:50:50] Speaker: For sure.
[00:50:50] Speaker 2: Um, what... You're a big advocate for vulnerability. We've, we've got, we've got that nailed down. We know that, but- Not vulnerability for the sake of attention, then I'm guessing.
[00:51:01] It's gotta have, you know, a reason behind it. But I think-
[00:51:05] Speaker: Yeah ...
[00:51:06] Speaker 2: what does that, what does that look like in practice? Like, is there a that's too far, you know, here's the baseline? Like, how do people know how far to go on a platform like LinkedIn?
[00:51:16] Speaker: It's a very good question. Um, I think I, like you said, the issue with the old geezer types going and, and deli- directly messaging and saying, "That's not for LinkedIn," you know, they're going out of their way to tell you something, um, that says more about them than it does you, I think.
[00:51:30] But with, uh, the... If you're sharing, like, really personal issues, um, the, the, the lady that we, I mentioned earlier, who shared that her, her, a member of her family had a disease, um, we were actually encouraging her to be a little bit less rigid and share something vulnerable. And then she suggested that, and we actually said, "Are you sure?"
[00:51:49] You know, "Are you sure you wanna go that personal straightaway?" And she, she's one of these, like, "Nope, I'm gonna do it. If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna dive straight in." So, she did, and we did it, and I spent two weeks going back and forth with her on that post. Um, it was worth it because it got her a load more business and the, the, you know, results skyrocketed.
[00:52:04] 4,800% is huge. Um, but we thought that was too far, uh, uh, the first time we heard it, and then we rewrote it and rewrote it over time. So, even if you go too far, it's almost better to go too far with an idea and then reign it back into something that's more tangible and relatable to other people- Yeah ... um, than, than not go far enough, you know?
[00:52:26] It's, like, with creative campaigns and stuff, I'm su- I'm sure you and Dave have had this too. Like, um, the idea of if you pitch a safe campaign, it's like, eh, fine, but it's better to pitch the wild one and then, like, you pitch the really safe one, and they'll probably choose the one in the middle or something.
[00:52:40] Yeah.
[00:52:41] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:52:42] Speaker: Um, but yeah, always go wild first, and then it's easier to reign it back in than to start boring and go more. Um, so- Yeah ... yeah, I, uh, I, I love that idea of be- being like, "Should I post this? Are you ... Really? I do- I don't think that's ... Is that too far?" That's a good question, because then if it is, you can work on it and make it more LinkedIn friendly.
[00:53:03] But until you have that question, it's probably not far enough
[00:53:07] Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there, is there any- anyone who shouldn't be doing this? Do you know what I mean? Like, have you had conversations with some prospects who are like, "Oh, I'm really interested in what you do, Jack. I think I'd be..." And you've gone, "Ooh, I, I don't know if you're the right level, like title, business, um, time in your career, whatever it is, to be doing this."
[00:53:27] Like, uh, is there any point where you've said, "Nah, not good, not a good plan"?
[00:53:30] Speaker: Weirdly, it's more of a, um, anyone can write authentic stories on LinkedIn, you know, 'cause we all have them. Um, it's more about the, the ego. This might upset some people, but if it does upset anyone listening to this, then that's probably a good thing.
[00:53:44] Um, but it's about the mindset, and the ego, and the cockiness, and the arrogance, um, of like, I, I have turned people away for being too up themselves, uh, too arrogant. And like they've deliberately said, "I want to write stories on LinkedIn." Okay, great. And it's like, "But I only wanna write about this, this, this, and that."
[00:54:02] Okay, fine. Okay. Being a bit rigid. The whole point of this is to unlock your neural pathways and be a bit more creative and open. Um, "Oh, no, no, no. I don't care about that. No, no, I just, I just want results." Okay. Um, so you're, you're... Obviously, yes, we all want results. We all want millions, and private jets, and blah, blah, blah.
[00:54:18] And y- we, we want our own island, sure. Why not? Um, what's more important is to write with the purpose of serving others, and eventually by doing that, and, and building up that network, and most importantly, putting others first- Yeah ... then all that, that goodness will come to you. "No, no, no, I don't care about other people.
[00:54:35] No, no, no. I just, I just want my results."
[00:54:36] Speaker 2: Oh, dear.
[00:54:37] Speaker: Those people are, yeah. That, that's almost word for word what I had a conversation with about eight months, just before Christmas, like eight, nine months ago. Yeah.
[00:54:45] Speaker 2: Um,
[00:54:45] Speaker: I can't remember the guy's name, but he was, he was American, and he was very, yeah. And I just, I, I, I stopped the call.
[00:54:51] I ended up and said, "Look, this isn't gonna work out. I'm not gonna try and sell to you. You know, I think I, I, we're, we're, we're just gonna part ways." Um, but he was very adamant that he wanted to use some form of telling stories to manipulate, and control, and, uh, get what he wanted instead of the natural way we should do it, which is to build connections, and be- Yeah
[00:55:13] open to opportunities, and serve other people. You know, that's... If you're not serving other people, then you're just being a dick, quite frankly.
[00:55:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know? And, you know, there's gonna be a massive disconnect then, isn't there? And I think that's probably- Leading into another question, because if you are, you know, presenting something on LinkedIn that feels quite, you know, vulnerable and open and you're showcasing something personal about yourself, but that isn't your real personality, and then someone bumps into you at a conference and you're an arrogant twat-
[00:55:44] Speaker: Yeah
[00:55:44] Speaker 2: or, and you- you're not coming across with that curiosity and warmth that you're- you're coming across online, that's, you know, that's not gonna work either, is it? I, I... Would it be fair to say if you, you have to be a certain type of person to- Be able to be, you know, the same voice online as you are in person, otherwise this, this isn't gonna work for you
[00:56:01] Speaker: Yeah, I think so, and that's what we're really keen to, uh, promote, is, uh, when I set up the business, I, I had this phrase, uh, and I still hold true to this today.
[00:56:09] I don't talk about it as much, but it's the three words, authentic... Which w- which way would be, be on the camera? Authentic visual storytelling, and it has to be all three of those, otherwise it won't work. If it's not authentic, people can sniff it out a mile away, and they just move on. And you're right, if I met you in real life and you were talking about, like, uh, clouds and rainbows over here on your LinkedIn, and then you're talking about, like, machetes and weapons, you know, in, in, um, real life, it's, yeah, totally different.
[00:56:35] But then, um, if you, if... So that's authenticity. If it's not visual, people aren't gonna be attracted to it, because we're very visual people. Like, there's a reason that babies have gigantic eyes, it's because we, we look at them and go, "Oh, that's cute." We wanna look after them, because that's how we connect with them and stuff like that.
[00:56:52] Um, uh, that's, and that's why human babies have developed massive, like, big, uh, sort of eyes and podgy cheeks or whatever over the course of evolution, because they make them more care-able, right? We care for them. Yeah. Um, so visual, we have to be vis- we have to find the thing that we're looking at visually interesting to us in order to want to connect with it.
[00:57:11] And then the storytelling aspect is it has to be a story that, and storytelling is such, such a big, broad term nowadays, but generally it encompasses, like, emotive, it has to be relatable, has to, uh, have a, some kind of transformation, like an A, A and B, before and after. Um, something for people to get invested in.
[00:57:29] Uh, like we started this podcast, you asked my origin story. Yeah, that's, that's more interesting than just, "Hi, I'm a designer. I run a company." Like, nobody cares. So, um, yeah, if you connect to a, the story, that's way more important, but authentic visual storytelling. And yeah, I think if it doesn't have those, those three elements, it's gonna fall apart.
[00:57:48] It's gonna be manipulative or for the sake of those end results. And like, I've, um... Yeah, I, I still, I'm still a little bit annoyed in my brain that that, that conversation from that guy happened, um, just because it was so alien to anything I'd experienced before. Um- Oh, you
[00:58:05] Speaker 2: will get those though, won't you?
[00:58:06] Yeah. You'll always get those ones. They'll, they'll crop up, won't they? They'll crop up.
[00:58:10] Speaker: Unfortunately, yeah.
[00:58:12] Speaker 2: Yeah Um, let's talk about the visual part of that storytelling then, and, like, enlighten me on what LinkedIn is doing in terms of algorithms. Because I, I, I have seen, and this might not be for, for everyone, but I have seen that, you know, photographs, like real photographs of people, of me with people, do much better than your standard, you know, like, really pretty designed graphics.
[00:58:34] Speaker: Yeah.
[00:58:34] Speaker 2: Um, but, you know, I feel like, you know, a selfie every day is a bit much.
[00:58:39] Speaker: I agree.
[00:58:40] Speaker 2: Yeah. But they do, they do, you know, get more engagement than, than the... So what, especially if someone is listening to this going, "Oh my God, okay. I'm interested in this, but I don't wanna be putting, like, you know, my face all over LinkedIn."
[00:58:49] Like, what's the best approach here?
[00:58:51] Speaker: I mean, I am gonna be very selfish and just talk about myself for a sec, uh, in the sense that I didn't want to either. I was, I'm still an introvert. You know, after this podcast, I've gotta do a bunch of stuff, but then I'll just relax by myself. Um, my partner's away today.
[00:59:05] She's at work. Um, normally we both work from home but, you know, she spends Tuesdays out and about. Um, so I have the house to myself. I'm gonna go read. I'm actually just gonna shut down and just enjoy my own company. But it's this idea that when you're visible, when you're, um, front, like public-facing and you take lots of selfies all the time, all of a sudden that you lose that part of yourself.
[00:59:27] That's not true. I thought I would, but I, I haven't. Um, I've ended up putting a million selfies on LinkedIn that have grown my business because people want to get to know me as a person, and when they do, we connect and we chat, and they learn that I'm an introvert, and actually that I don't like this whole self-promotion thing.
[00:59:44] But I know that it's necessary in order to get the chance to serve others, you know? To actually put- Yeah ... yourself out there. Um, but yeah, I, I have had that question quite a lot. I don't wanna put out selfies on LinkedIn. I don't, I don't wanna be the f- the front face of my brand. I just want my business to do its job.
[00:59:58] Like, that's fine. Um, in which case you can use, like, images y- of, of your team. You can do events. Um, you can showcase behind the scenes of your company. You can say, "This is a product we're working on. These are our services." Anything visual that you can do that's a little bit different, but ultimately it's your LinkedIn People do want to get to know you, so as long as you crop up every now and then, that's actually a benefit to you.
[01:00:22] And you don't have to just go all out like I did. Like, I treated it as therapy. You know? I'm, I'm an introvert. I'm quite shy. I don't wanna be everywhere, so what am I gonna do? Put a bloody picture of myself on
[01:00:32] Speaker 2: LinkedIn. Exposure therapy. Yeah. Uh- Yeah ... exactly.
[01:00:35] Speaker: And it, that ended up being, uh, worked wonders for me because now I'm more confident, more able to articulate ideas, and, um, I don't mind being the center of attention, not in a look-at-me kind of way, but because it helps the business, because it's a, an asset I can use.
[01:00:51] Um, my personality can actually be quite effective in helping others. So that's a nice thing. Um, but yeah, you don't have to. You know, if you are worried about putting yourself out there, you can stay in the background and just let your, your, like, words do the talking. Um, yeah.
[01:01:06] Speaker 2: I imagine that's something that you, you guide people on then when, when they come to you for support there and, you know, how exposed they wanna be and how, how to approach it visually as well as the, you know, with the language.
[01:01:16] Speaker: Exactly. Yeah. And there's, um, so many people are like, "Yeah, let's do this." Yeah, pictures of me all the time. We worked with a guy, lovely guy, uh, called Justin, um, over in America, and he is... He was, like, happy for us to Photoshop him onto all kinds of crazy photos. Uh, like, he was just nuts, and in the best way possible.
[01:01:34] Because there's a picture of me on LinkedIn where I've said, like, I like being the black sheep, right? People say, "Oh, don't, don't be the black sheep," you know. "No one likes that." No, no, no. I, I do. I, I've c- put a picture of me with a load of white sheep in a field, and I was the black one, and it was my face on the sheep, and my designer did that, and she actually laughed, like, couldn't stop laughing.
[01:01:53] She said, "I can't believe I get paid for this." "I've just, just put my boss's face on a sheep and it... And I didn't get fired, and actually I get paid for it." I'm like, "Yeah, great." And we put that on LinkedIn and it was a big successful post and everyone loved it because it's like he doesn't give a shit about his face being on a sheep.
[01:02:11] What, what? And then they're intrigued and they, they look at it. And Justin was the same way. You know, he put- we'd put his face in, uh, in like a prison outfit. Um, bec- one post was like, "I nearly got sent to prison because..." And he talked about this, and he... So we Photoshopped him onto a prisoner in America. Um, and that stuff is so different to all the BS that's on LinkedIn at the moment, especially now.
[01:02:32] Um, there's so much AI crap, but- Yeah ... we use, you know, and, and people probably use AI to photo- AI Photoshop themselves onto stuff. But we, um, yeah, we, we recommend highly swimming against the tide, doing things that are different and visual, like you say. If you're not afraid to. And if you are, if you wanna be like the high-end CEO who's only professional and you take pictures of corporate events and, uh, things like that, and not highlight your team, that's fine.
[01:02:57] You can do that. You don't have to be a silly idiot like me. Um, you know, you can do whatever works for you, but it has to be authentic to you. That's the thing. Yes. Like you said, we've got, um, we've got Justin, who was a, a, an absolute head case in the best possible way. Um, and then we've got, uh, current clients who I won't name their first names, but, uh, a high-performance coach.
[01:03:17] We've got a sports tech CEO, um, even a financial advisor, uh, you know, m- a mortgage advisor. We've got, um, uh, a whole bunch of other people in different industries, and they're very, they're very stand out in their own industry- Yeah ... but they, they each have their own personality. You know, we wouldn't do one thing that we do for one person for the other person.
[01:03:34] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's what, um, some people are afraid of, aren't they? I think is, um, one being, you know, being seen and be- being out there and ex- and being judged 'cause, you know, we all are. That, that's normal. But also, um, you know, and we have the same conversations with businesses in boring industries, you know, that are, yeah, financial planners, accountants, um, law firms, like all...
[01:03:57] Who are like, "My business is too boring and too stale to be, you know, being-" do something interesting and storytelling around. And it never is-
[01:04:08] Speaker: No,
[01:04:08] Speaker 2: it- It never is. If you ask the right questions, there is always a great story underneath there somewhere that you can pull out, and I think people underestimate how valuable that is because they know it so well, because they know themselves so well, they know the business so well.
[01:04:22] So- Yeah ... so to them, it's not interesting because they've been, you know, it's been swirling around their brain for, you know, decades. But from the outside perspective, I'm like, "Holy shit, that's incredible that story that happened to you." And then they go, "Is it?" And I'm like, "Yeah, you should post it." So yeah, eventually you get to learn so much like crazy stuff about incredible people who've never spoken about things because they thought it was dull.
[01:04:45] Speaker: Literally. Yeah, and like, um, even the industry that they're in as well, they might think their industry is dull, like, uh, manufacturing or accountancy or law or something. I've met a, um, uh, a lawyer in India who was running his own, uh, creating his own AI-based law firm to help refugees with their applications for asylum.
[01:05:04] And I was like, "Whoa, that's wicked." Like, it was, it's this idea that if you're an asylum seeker and you're traveling between countries, you have to fill in literally like days' worth of paperwork just to be able to get access to that country. Um, if you do it legally, of course, right, as we all should. Yeah, yeah.
[01:05:19] Um, but, uh, so, and that, that became a massive barrier, and there's so many hurdles they have to jump through. They just want a better life for themselves. But this guy was putting together a program that could help them do it all with verifiable lawyer-based, uh, AI that could do it within like 20 minutes.
[01:05:35] And it's like, whoa, that can change- literally has the power to change people's lives. And I was like, "Why are you not talking about this?" Like, I found out about it on a call with him. Um, and I'm like, "This should be all over your LinkedIn. Tell people what
[01:05:47] Speaker 2: you're doing." It's always the way, isn't it? Yeah.
[01:05:48] It's always the way. And- My, my favorite one is like you're at a networking event, and it's a, you know, group that you've been part of for a long time, and I'll make it up 'cause I don't wanna, I don't wanna name names here. But, you know, you, you've known them, you've known what they've done, they've said the same sort of like elevator pitch, and then you end up having a drink randomly after a networking event and you get chatting.
[01:06:08] And then this whole life comes out about why they got into what they did and why it was so important to them and, and you're like, holy crap, like this is, this is your purpose and your why, and it, it all comes back to branding, doesn't it, and positioning? Now you need to be talking about this to the world because people will give a shit about that.
[01:06:27] Speaker: It's true. Yeah.
[01:06:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:06:29] Speaker: It's like- People buy, people buy what... Uh, sorry. People don't buy what you do or how you do it, they buy why you do it.
[01:06:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Start With Why, that's a great book, great
[01:06:38] Speaker: book. Start With Why Like, you know what? I've always meant to buy it, I never have. So I've, I've followed Simon Sinek for so long- Yeah
[01:06:47] Speaker 2: but I've never bought a book. Gonna have to change that. Well, to be fair, you've probably heard all of the good bits, you know, 'cause it's like dissected so much across socials, but it i- it is one to have on the bookshelf, definitely. For sure. Yeah, I would recommend-
[01:06:53] Speaker: And we, we include it in our brand positioning process as well, so
[01:06:56] Speaker 2: yeah.
[01:06:56] Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a good one. I mean, ultimately what we are talking about is, is, um, personal brand building, isn't it? Um- Yeah ...
[01:07:02] Speaker: yeah. And b- yeah, authority as well. So this is- Yeah ... this is where the distinction comes in. Like, there are so many, um, personal brand agencies out there, and I I'm gonna quite bluntly say I have stuck myself into this field with no prior knowledge.
[01:07:16] You know, I'm not a world-weary CEO at the age of 60 who has been there and done that, and traveled the world and done it all. Like, I know my limitations, but I love helping people to discover how to make themselves stand out in a meaningful way that isn't just sort of personal brand stuff, but is more focused on how can I be an, a authority in my niche?
[01:07:36] How can I build a category of one? And like, uh, if I want a taxi, where am I gonna go on my phone? Uber. Yeah, of course. Like, if I wanna, um, book a random holiday, Airbnb, straightaway. They are, they, they are the categories of ones in their individual industries. What I'm trying to build and what we're, we're getting there, but eventually we'll, we'll coalesce, um, is like personal branding, but that's really specific on building authority for CEOs.
[01:08:02] So, like, if you've got, um, Jeff. Jeff, the CEO of Acme Corp, right? Um, I, I really want, uh, a, uh... I, I, I need a plumber. Who am I gonna go to? Well, Jeff, of course. Like, who's Jeff? Well, haven't you heard of Jeff? Well, how have you not heard of Jeff? Like, that's kind of the goal, is the authority that builds in the background without you having to do anything.
[01:08:19] Like, that's what I'm all about. So, um, it's somewhat different to personal branding because personal branding feels more influencery. Um-
[01:08:25] Speaker 2: Yeah. I was gonna say, that, that probably... That word jumps to mind, doesn't it, when you talk about personal branding, which again, I think feeds the fear into CEOs who are like, "Oh, I'm not an influencer.
[01:08:35] I don't want my face all over social media." But- Yeah ... yes, authority is what, what we're talking about. You're right. For
[01:08:39] Speaker: sure. It's really hard to define as well, really hard to quantify. But yeah, I've put together like a whole load of, uh, authority gap audits and, um, assessments and, uh, I've, yeah, even copyrighted a few of these phrases, um, for bu- building authority.
[01:08:52] But it's this idea that your reputation is not something to ignore. Like, building your reputation up as a business owner, it's something you can leverage in order to get more sales. Because as you exactly said, right, when we go to networking events, we build, we connect with those we like and trust. And the, the ultimate goal for me would be that, um, when someone that we're working with enters a room that no one, like...
[01:09:17] Let's say they enter a room and someone whispers their name and says, "Oh, that's Jeff." And then everyone else goes, "Wait. No, that's Jeff? Oh my God, I've seen him online. Like, we've... He's been doing so much. This is g- That's Je- Really? That guy?" Like, that's what I really love to, to think about, the idea that we can promote someone's authority in such a way, um, that they are...
[01:09:36] Yeah, that, that they're o- doors open for them before they reach for the handle. That's my, my motto. So yeah.
[01:09:44] Speaker 2: I love that. If someone wants to become known as that go-to person in their industry then, if they want to be the Jeff of plumbing in whatever industry they are, where should they be starting now? So, so I'm just thinking of, you know, the, the CEOs who've done things in a certain way.
[01:10:01] They've never really had their, their face out there, but they kind of know that they should be now. This is the, you know, the, the age of, of, of building that up. What's the first thing they need to be thinking about now?
[01:10:11] Speaker: Firstly, um, the phrase that you can be the best at what you do, but if no one sees you doing it, then it doesn't matter.
[01:10:18] So most, most visible is- uh, sorry. Best visible is better than best.
[01:10:25] Speaker 2: Wow. So. Okay. Can you say that again? 'Cause I need that to go into my brain.
[01:10:30] Speaker: Of course. Best visible is better than best
[01:10:34] Speaker 2: Wow. Why do you think that is then? Tell me
[01:10:37] Speaker: why Because, like, the people like Steven Bartlett and, um, uh, uh, what's her name?
[01:10:40] The lady who runs Clout. Can't remember her name, but, um, Amelia Sordell. Uh, yeah, all the- these... Lara Acosta, Niall Ratcliffe, all these names on LinkedIn, they are, um... They're probably very, very good at what they do, but they might not be the best. You know, the best person could be someone in their bedroom, like in Solihull, with a, a follow- follower of, like, three people, typing away, being absolutely amazing at what they do, but no one knows about them.
[01:11:06] So best visible is better than best. So yeah, you've gotta be, um, you've gotta be more visible. You've gotta be always thinking about how you can get out there, and mostly I say this because people think they can just outsource this to AI. Like, yeah, it's fine. I'll just get AI to do it for me. No, you have to be visible.
[01:11:25] You as a human, as a person. Um, it doesn't matter what your AI does. It doesn't matter if you use Claude or GPT or any other platform. Even, like, Lovable for, like, building websites and stuff. They're all fine tools, but if they're missing you, then there's no soul. There's no, like, person to connect with. And as you rightly said, people don't buy from brands anymore, they buy from people.
[01:11:46] Mm-hmm. So it ties in. You've gotta make yourself more visible. Um, but the keyword there is, yeah, you have to make yourself more visible. And if you don't wanna... If you're a CEO and you don't wanna do this, if you want your team to do it, or if you just wanna every now and then put a picture of you at an event or in a very, uh, carefully thought out way, you don't have to go full influencer or content creator.
[01:12:06] You don't have to post a load of selfies. Um, as, as Jess said, like, you don't have to follow that path. Um, you just have to make sure that someone in your team who's building your brand, or ideally you, is visible as a frontman or frontwoman or front-facing person who can promote your company. Um, yeah, that's, that's what it is.
[01:12:26] Just more visibility.
[01:12:28] Speaker 2: I love that. I think I did a similar, uh, post a couple of weeks ago on TikTok about, um- It was kind of similar, but your phrase is much, much catchier. It was around the fact that it isn't good enough to just be good at what you do anymore. Like, yeah, it, it's that, it's that element. And because of the competition in the market, and like, you know, people can do things quicker and easier nowadays, you have to be, um, yeah, on the tip of people's tongue, I suppose, when they need that product or service.
[01:12:51] Speaker: Yeah. Front of mind, like tip of the tongue, like... And that's why, uh, regularly creating stuff, whether it's on whatever platform you choose- Mm-hmm ... um, where- wherever your, the platform you choose should be where your audience is mostly. So if you're, if you're targeting, um, like school marketing, for example, millennial parents let's say, you might choose to go for Instagram because that's where they spend most of their time.
[01:13:12] If you choose, uh, like specifically you're marketing for big CEOs and, um, networking companies, yeah, you're gonna go on LinkedIn. Uh, and even, um, smaller influencer types or you really wanna work with UGC creators, TikTok, place to be. So every- everything has its place. Um, but you have to be there ready so that when they load up their feed, they see you.
[01:13:33] Um, there was a crazy statistic, which it was more than I thought, but, um, we had, uh, we, we had what? Probably seven touch points with a brand before we buy from them. That was the go-to number. Um-
[01:13:43] Speaker 2: Now it's insane, isn't it?
[01:13:45] Speaker: It's now, yeah, the research nowadays shows it's between 28 and 60 touch points for the brand- Mm-hmm
[01:13:51] before someone trusts you enough to connect with you. So if you're posting one post a month, that's gonna be five years before... And if, if they see every single post, they won't buy from you for five years. But if you're posting, you know, uh, let's say one post a day, that's 30 a month, that's two months.
[01:14:07] Let's say worst case scenario, they see every single post for two months, the sales cycle becomes two months. But they're probably not gonna see every single post. So if you post three times a day for, uh, you know, for, for a month, say, that's 90 posts in an entire month, where as long as you've, you're not just churning out a bunch of stuff, it's also gotta follow that rule of authentic visual storytelling.
[01:14:29] It's gotta give- Yeah ... 95% value, 5% ask. Um, gotta remove your ego, serve the person, serve the, the value, the message. All this shit is really hard.
[01:14:39] Speaker 2: Yeah. And,
[01:14:39] Speaker: and business owners shouldn't have to do it themselves. They shouldn't have to learn all this, which is why a company like mine exists, because then we do this for them.
[01:14:48] They just meet with us every week or every two weeks, get... We chat through goals, uh, vision, and then we do it all for them. But what-
[01:14:55] Speaker 2: I think that's valuable, isn't it? 'Cause it's a, it's another full-time job otherwise, and it's just- Yeah ... not, yeah, it's not gonna be, not gonna happen, is it? Absolutely not. True.
[01:15:04] Um, the other thing I wanna touch on a little bit is because CEOs Can be a little bit difficult, shall we say? A little bit impatient. Yeah. Um, and I, you know, I'm, I'm not, you know, to that level, but I will count myself in that category of I want it now, and I want results now.
[01:15:21] Speaker: Yeah.
[01:15:22] Speaker 2: Um, but there is that conversation that needs to happen around the, the gap between the effort and results, and this isn't, you know, you're gonna start posting this month, and you're gonna get, you know, X amount of revenue next month.
[01:15:33] That is not a thing. Agreed. Um, and we talk about this a lot with businesses who are, you know, starting, you know, building brand awareness across social channels and, you know, really making it clear that this is a long game. This is a long-term game, especially if you are building from nothing. Um- And I imagine that you do get quite a lot of like, "So when is this gonna work?
[01:15:53] When is this gonna work?" Um- Yeah ... conversation. So is there, is there, um... Have you got data on like how long this will take to build that enough of authority that you'll get inquiries? Or is it just a, you know, you can't really measure it, and it'll just be what it'll be?
[01:16:06] Speaker: It's a really tough thing. For one, one client recently, we have measured this.
[01:16:10] Um, like, um, so yeah, we do, uh, measure for our clients. We measure the, uh, impressions, engagement, comments, likes, uh, or profile visitors. Everything on LinkedIn that you can measure, we do. And then every couple of weeks, uh, it depends on, you know, the client's contract, some, some of them it's every month, some of them it's every week.
[01:16:26] But on average, every two weeks on a Friday, we deliver our, our analytics and opportunities report, which says, "These are the top people who've engaged with you. These are, they, these people who messaged you. Um, they're ready for you to nurture. They, you know, go for it. They're warm leads. You know, go naturally sell to them.
[01:16:41] Um, they're interested in what you do." And that's really valuable. Like, we've had so many of our, our clients say, "Whoa. Wow, I didn't expect that. Thanks." Like, I s- And we link to those people, so they can literally go and nurture them themselves and send them a message and turn them into clients, which is really exciting 'cause it's taking that raw data, turning it into something that they can actually do something with it.
[01:17:01] You know, straight away, "These are my actual leads. I'm gonna message them." Um, we're not salespeople. We, we try and make that as clear as possible. Uh, we do what we do, and we've, we're good at understanding how things work and the algorithm and everything. Um, but we get that trust built upfront so that when you message them, they're already aware of you, and they're already primed to either book a call or, um, yeah, or buy from you.
[01:17:25] But it... You're right. It doesn't take a... It's not overnight. B- Simply because if you walked up to someone on a first date and said, "Hey, I think we should get together. Um, do you wanna come back to mine? Great. Let's, uh, go and have a drink. Let's get married. Let's have kids," like on date, on day one, just wouldn't happen.
[01:17:40] So the, there's the level of, like, common sense that seems to... There's a bit of a disconnect, you know? Like, business owners want that result. They want the, the marriage and the kids on the first date, but they also know that that's not realistic. So it, it's very odd. Um, but, uh, ultimately, yeah, we try and, we try and bridge that gap by saying, "Look, we are making regular progress.
[01:18:00] There's, there's stuff that is happening. We're seeing calls get booked in." Uh, and when our clients work with us, we do have this trackable data that we can say to them, "Look, all these people have inquired with you. Like, this many people have downloaded your lead magnet. We've got, uh, so many clicks on your newsletter.
[01:18:16] You know, you've got, um, 15 calls booked this week alone, uh, for next month because of our work that we've built." So there is a tangibility to this. But you're right, people still just want the make it work button, and there's no such button, so.
[01:18:31] Speaker 2: But the important thing is you've gotta start, right? And, and be visible, and that's the important part.
[01:18:35] Speaker: Exactly. It's building that trust. It's essentially the... Oh, yeah, you've just helped me clarify this. The best way to describe it would be having a little team like us so that we go out and do all those conversations with people that you hate doing. Like, we, we go and have all those networking conversations like the, "Hi, how are you?
[01:18:54] What do you do?" All that boring stuff. We take that off your plate and make those engaged people come to you. And basically, the best way that I've phrased it before was imagine the White Cliffs of Dover, right? You've got the, the beautiful cliffs on the side of England, and you've got the sea in the, in the ocean, and everyone on LinkedIn is in that sea.
[01:19:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[01:19:14] Speaker: They're all literally, the waves in the ocean, they're all waving, trying to get your attention, going, "Look at me. Look at me." You are not in the sea. If you work with us, we make you the lighthouse on the top of the cliffs-
[01:19:25] Speaker 2: Ooh ...
[01:19:26] Speaker: and bring the boats to you.
[01:19:28] Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. Attract, don't chase.
[01:19:31] Speaker: Exactly. Yeah.
[01:19:33] That's what our content does. And I hate the word content, but that's what our, our writing does. It builds that authority to make you attractive- Mm ... to your audience, um, so they come to you instead of you chasing them.
[01:19:44] Speaker 2: I love that. That's brilliant. Cheers. I think I'm gonna go and sort my LinkedIn content out after
[01:19:51] Speaker: this.
[01:19:52] Yes. Yeah. Uh, if you need a hand, happy to help.
[01:20:00] Speaker 2: So I understand. It's good to know No, yeah. It's, it's crossing my mind, honestly. I'm like, "Oh, I should probably be talking about this more." Yeah. But, uh, with all the work you're doing then, like, what, what excites you the most now about where storytelling, um, authority building, founder-led marketing are heading over the next few years, and what, what's changing?
[01:20:13] Speaker: I think the- we're starting to see a shift between the people who are taking the easy route, which is just going on AI, Claude especially. Um, taking the easy route is becoming more obvious. People can tell when you do. And what excites me is when I see people swimming the opposite direction because they, they're the ones that stand out.
[01:20:33] You can tell that there's a human. They've put in thought, put thought into it. Even if they've cocked up some of the spelling, that's good because that means that they're human. You know? AI makes everything perfect to the point where it's so boring. Okay, I tell you what, um, a great way of looking at this is who's your, um, either yours or your kids', who's, who is your favorite superhero
[01:20:54] Speaker 2: Superhero?
[01:20:55] Speaker: Yes.
[01:20:56] Speaker 2: Uh, I'm gonna go with Spider-Man.
[01:20:58] Speaker: Spider-Man. Right. Cool. Um, you didn't say Superman? Because- I didn't ... no, he's, he's so boring. He's perfect. He is
[01:21:05] Speaker 2: boring, yeah.
[01:21:05] Speaker: Yeah. He's too nice. Exactly. Exactly. Too nice, too polite, too perfect. Um, he- sure he has a weakness, but how often does kryptonite appear? Like-
[01:21:13] Speaker 2: Mm ...
[01:21:13] Speaker: the idea of some- something or someone that's overly polished, overly perfect, overly like, "Yeah, I stand for justice."
[01:21:20] And you know, even Captain America, he's super, like, Mr. Justice. Um, but then you've got Spider-Man. He's just this kid from the Bronx. He's down to earth. He, he fucks up all the time. He just does his thing, and he's very down to earth. He's genuine. He's authentic, authentic visual storytelling. Same with Iron Man.
[01:21:36] He's deeply flawed. He's a, he's a alcoholic narcissist who, um, loves himself too much and only builds things to try and stop himself from dying. You know, he's got all that, like, stuff trying to creep its way into his heart. He builds his suit of armor to preserve his own life, and he's, he's quite honestly a bit of a dick, but he's more interesting because- Yeah
[01:21:55] of that. Like, he, he's just... Superman is so boring, and in this example, Superman is AI. Every wo- what excites me about the, the coming sort of era of, uh, of marketing in general is we're gonna see so many people in the AI camp, and they love it. And I, do- don't get me wrong, I think it is a brilliant tool, just not for writing.
[01:22:16] Speaker 2: Yeah. So
[01:22:17] Speaker: yeah, use AI for anything else, um, just not writing. But it's, it's this idea that Superman is AI. He's very boring. He's very straight-laced, and it's too perfect, but all the people who are being broken, being, uh, vulnerable, sharing issues, being a little bit quirky, a little bit funny, sharing personality, there's gonna be such a disparity between the two, and we're gonna gravitate towards the ones who are real.
[01:22:38] Speaker 2: I love that. You know? I love that. Yeah. That's... Imagine I had said Superman, though. How screwed would you have been?
[01:22:43] Speaker: I'd, I'd be really screwed. Yeah.
[01:22:46] Speaker 2: I love that we've come... We started at origin stories, and we ended on superheroes. I love that. That, that- That's cool, yeah ... worked out really well, didn't it?
[01:22:53] Speaker: Nice.
[01:22:54] Nice, nice, nice circle to it.
[01:22:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, because the, um, my business is called Alchemy and the podcast is called Brand Scale from Alchemy, I like to tie it back to the alchemy theme, which, you know, from my perspective just means creating something amazing out of nothing. And I think, you know, a lot of what we do as business owners and entrepreneurs do all over the place is have an idea, usually born from frustration, and create something absolutely miraculous out of absolutely nothing.
[01:23:21] So I like to tie it back to that theme for the last question.
[01:23:25] Speaker: Sure.
[01:23:25] Speaker 2: So I'm gonna ask, if you had a personal alchemy formula for success, what would the one ingredient you wouldn't want to be without, and why?
[01:23:34] Speaker: I don't even have to think about this. Authenticity, personal- I
[01:23:37] Speaker 2: thought you were gonna say that, yeah.
[01:23:38] Speaker: Yeah. Um, if you do anything in life, you have to put your s- your whole self into it. And, um, like you said earlier, we can, we can pivot, we can go through different chapters of life. You know, one year I might, uh, I might be really into carpentry and woodwork and stuff, and then the next I'm building a business from scratch.
[01:23:53] Um, in 10 years I could go into medicine, you know, and be an okay-ish GP, you know, without the years of training. Um, I won't, by the way. But it's this idea that throughout whatever you do in life, you always have to just give your all to it. Yeah. And I, for me, this come- my magic ingredient is that I was very fortunate that when I was a kid, um, my dad said to me, like, you know, he'd, he'd do the typical dad thing of like reading, um, t- like, storybooks to you while you're full of sleep and stuff.
[01:24:19] It was really sweet. Um, and then at the, like, during the storybook, somehow he would always work in something like, "And no matter what he tried," like the character in the book or something, "No matter what he tried, he did his best. Doesn't matter if he got it wrong, but he did his best." And I, I intuited that, and so no matter what I try and do in life, I don't half-ass it.
[01:24:39] I always try and do my best a bit. So that is my magic ingredient. I, I might fail. I might become a massive failure in life, and that doesn't matter as long as I've given everything I've got. Whereas if I don't, I'll beat myself up for it, you know? Mm. That's- Just gotta, yeah. Gi- gi- give your all for something, otherwise what's the point?
[01:24:56] Speaker 2: Oh, I love that, Jack. I love it. Oh, I've really, really enjoyed our conversation. I think we could talk for hours and hours, but, um, I won't keep you any longer 'cause it is boiling hot, and, um, yeah, I imagine you need a break now. Um, thank you so much. But if, um, if you would like, where can people find you and how can people get in touch with you if they need your help?
[01:25:13] Speaker: Well, I love that because I'm really bad at self-promotion. So, um, yeah, no, if, if anyone does need my help, um, on LinkedIn, uh, just you can find me, Jack Dyer, uh, Storytold. Um, on the Storytold website, storytold.co.uk, nice and simple. Um, and, uh, yeah, just send me an email. It's jack@storytold.co.uk. But, uh, and hopefully I'm not opening myself up to loads of spam emails there, but- Hopefully not
[01:25:35] um, yeah, fingers crossed. But honestly, yeah, just if, if anyone does need my help, uh, if anyone does wanna reach out, more than happy to, uh, give advice and, uh, yeah, provide any insight that you need.
[01:25:46] Speaker 2: Amazing. Thanks, Jack. Really appreciate your time.
[01:25:49] Speaker: Cool. Thank you very much. Cheers, Jess. It's been great.
[01:25:51] Speaker 2: Bye.
[01:25:51] Bye-bye.
[01:25:52]