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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Okay, PMMs.
I think most of you are going
to agree with this thought.
Really great product marketers
stand out early on in their
careers or early on in their
roles by how they act when
they first start in whatever
new role they are starting in.
So let me explain.
When a PMM starts in a
new job, really great
PMMs listen, okay?
They talk to team members
and stakeholders, again,
early on in that career
or role, and they look for
problems that keep coming up.
Then they figure out where
those problems are actually
affecting the business.
And when they find something
important, they jump on
it and they collect an
early win and boost their
reputation all for the better.
So that's exactly what
today's guest did.
You guys, it is my
pleasure to welcome Jeremy
Moskowitz to the show.
Jeremy has had one of those
career paths that I think
makes you immediately want
to ask about the whole story.
His career started in
sales, left, to become an
unpaid intern at Apollo.io,
eventually converting to,
the first product hire, then
moved into product marketing
at LinkedIn, and then joined
Outreach, where he worked
across product marketing,
revenue marketing, and
portfolio product marketing.
So while at Outreach,
Jeremy launched its AI agent
platform, which went on to
generate roughly $30 million
in revenue in its first year.
He was also part of the team
behind several of Outreach's
zero to one launches and
helped lead some of its
first platform-wide campaigns
as the company expanded
from primarily serving
SDRs into the AE audience.
Today, Jeremy is the VP
of marketing at Mural, but
here's the interesting part.
That's not the role that he
originally joined Mural to do.
He joined as VP of product
marketing, and within his
first few months, he spotted
a problem he hadn't been hired
specifically to solve, built
something surprisingly simple
to solve it, helped sales win
the company's biggest deal of
the year, got the CEO using
his work with customers, and
ultimately saw the initiative
become something the entire
sales force was certified on.
So today, we are talking all
about how to find the problems
that actually matter when
you enter a new organization,
how to turn an early PMM
win into broader business
momentum, and why sometimes
the best thing you can do
with your tried and true PMM
playbook is to ignore it.
Jeremy, it's amazing to
have you on the show.
Excited to be here, El.
Just a couple of NorCal kids
talking product marketing.
My favorite thing to do.
Exactly
All right, let's
dive right in.
So for anyone who isn't
familiar with MURAL,
give us a quick overview.
What is MURAL exactly?
All right.
So everyone knows what it's
like to work on a complicated
cross-functional project.
Lots of planning
sessions, lot of, lots of
stakeholders, communications.
everyone agrees to a plan
when you're in the meeting,
and then you go out and
it's time to execute and it
just becomes frustrating.
Nothing gets done.
People are miscommunicated.
Work has to be redone
'cause people had
different mental models.
Well, Mural is
fixing that problem.
Um, we've been in the market
a long time as a visual
collaboration platform.
You know, digital canvas, you
can do-- use it for anything
from sprint planning to UX
research, campaign planning.
and because we know that
everyone has their sessions
in Mural, we're using AI to
transform that canvas into
an organizational brain,
something that remembers
each of these sessions,
remembers the decisions and
the next steps that we're,
aligned on and helping
people, stay aligned, uh,
so that there's less rework,
decisions are clear, and
teams get to outcome faster.
I love that.
Yeah, when we-- I feel like
when I first encountered
Mural, it was just this,
like a virtual whiteboard,
and now it's so much
more sophisticated, so it
makes me extra eager to
share this story today.
Okay.
So take us back
to January 2026.
You joined Mural as the VP
of product marketing, and
I think the context here
matters a lot because Mural
had been through some pretty
significant transition.
So give us the lay of the
land when you walked in.
What happened at the company,
and what did you think you
were going to do there?
Yeah.
So, the reason I came to Mural
in January of this year is
that they were going through
a transformation that I had
seen Outreach go through,
where you go through explosive
growth, you know, largely
supported by having one
product that one ICP loves.
during COVID, when there's
pressure on remote work,
there's, you know, even more
demand for that product.
Something like a virtual
whiteboard to replace all
of the meetings people
have in-person, was kind
of ripe for that market.
Then we saw the market
correction that you see
in software in the 22s,
I guess I'll call that.
Early, early 20s
feels like it's weird to say.
and there was a transition
on the leadership team and
marketing was being rebuilt
and I, was hired by a new
CEO and new CMO, who had a
mandate to transform Mural.
and so it was exciting for
me because I'd had a great
four years at Outreach, but
I realized that to increase
the impact of my product
marketing, I had to decrease
the size of the organization
I was marketing in.
and so I came into Mural,
you know, there was one
existing, product marketer
there, but, um, I had a…
Uh, sorry, there were
two existing PMMs there
and two that I knew
that I had to hire.
and so that context meant
that I was coming into an
org that had not had a lot
of product marketing support
recently, but had a lot of
demand and appetite for it
Yes, I can picture the
exact environment that
you're describing.
I find those opportunities to
be some of the most exciting
for a product marketing
leader, any marketing leader
for that matter, right?
There is-- You look around
and you're like, "Oh my gosh,
there's so much here that we
can fix." and it's, it feels
a little bit like cheating
because you're like, "Oh,
it's gonna be so easy for
me to get some quick wins,"
because the bar is actually
kinda low because there's
so much appetite for and
demand for your expertise
or your team's expertise.
Um, and it's helpful that
you got there and you
already had a little bit
of that with your existing
PMM, but then you can focus
and distribute more obviously
with, with yourself on board.
And I was extremely fortunate
that one of the PMMs on my
team who was kind of the,
the first hired first mover
of the org, had basically
from scratch built out the
feature release process.
Um, and the art of like
product is shipping
things, enabling the field,
figuring out like consistent
channels where we notify and
enable customers on them.
if I had not had the luxury of
that PMM, Katie, having built
that from scratch, that's
probably something I would've
had my focus on much earlier.
Yeah.
Shout out to
those early PMM builders.
okay, so you get there, you
look around, you're kind
of like in rebuild mindset.
You know, I guess like walk me
through what you thought you
were gonna initially work on
based on what you described,
I would think like messaging
is gonna be what you're gonna
go through first, right?
Because you described this
huge transition that the
company is going through.
So what happened with that?
Yeah.
So you're right.
Uh, I am historically
a messaging guy.
You talked about the
persona campaigns.
I'd done, I'd
done at Outreach.
I walked in thinking that
my PMM team was gonna be
structured that way, that,
um, I was, gonna be kind of
r-running playbooks and very
specif- like segment-specific
campaigns geared to different
ICPs who, you know, were on
a spectrum of we know that
there's a fit with them for
Mural or there's some kind
of nascent demand that we
s- we see that we wanna, um,
kind of pour gas on or test.
and you know, I also noticed
the website and the website
does not how I would structure
a website historically.
And so I came in and saying
like, "These are the, you
know, three things that, you
know, I've typically done when
I've come into a new marketing
role." When I've seen
marketing leaders come in,
they were usually the three
things that they focused on.
And so I was like, "Hey,
this is, you know, this is
what I'm gonna prioritize."
And we also had somewhat
of a compelling event.
our sales kickoff was coming
up, and it was a good forum
to debut new website, new, um,
and a new first call deck that
would kinda have that new, new
message associated with Mural.
Yeah.
So the stars are aligning.
You're the messaging guy, you
have the opportunity, you've
got your tried and true PMM
playbooks, so you get to SCO.
And for those who don't
know, SCO is sales
kickoff.
annual sales, gathering
for that year's trainings
and all of that good stuff.
So what happened
when you got to SCO
where you first thought
you'd be debuting all
these big initiatives
So a couple of
things happened.
Um, number one, even before
we get to SCO, um, very
early on in my tenure,
there was, a small reorg
and content marketing
started reporting to me.
I am not historically a
content marketer, but my
PMM hat, and especially that
period where portfolio was on
my product marketing title,
I worked very closely with,
content and demand gen and
kind of just know what that
machine should look like.
but I had some work to do,
kind of retaining a content
marketer who was in C, making
sure that the existing funnel
we had, didn't break, and
then also hiring for two other
open PMM slots that I had.
And what the first thing that
forced me to do was, you know,
like reexamine my priorities
and reexamine like what's
really a, a burning need.
And one thing I noticed early
on was that website, which it
wasn't how I would message,
it was converting pretty well.
So it was, you know, any, uh,
funnel challenges we wanted to
correct were not necessarily
associated with the website.
So I was like, "Okay, I'm
gonna shift my attention
to elsewhere where," like
you said, "I have a lot
of this pent-up demand."
I built out that
first call deck.
I kind of went through,
familiarized myself with
the existing messaging
and basically looked for
opportunities to kind of
update it for where the
market was today, listened
to call recordings.
Uh, Slackbot has a great
integration where whatever
your CI tool is, you can
integrate it and then you
can just start kind of
querying it yourself, saving
me a
lot of time and I was able to,
you know, in kind of much more
rapid fashion than I'm used
to, get to a first call deck,
April Dunford style, you know,
use cases, and something that
I was ready to test with a
small pocket of, of reps kind
of as a fast follow to SCO.
I get to sales kickoff, and
one, it was, it was great.
It's the least amount of
work I've done for a sales
kickoff in my career.
all the folks at Outreach
listening to this will laugh
about… I used to have
the nickname Headset Jeremy
because I used to be, like,
wearing a headset like a
producer and, like, yanking
our execs on and off stage
when they had to present.
Uh, so I was there just for
the vibes and… But when
I was-- It was also that
moment I had been, like, a
little bit below the radar
in my first two months on
the job, and reps kind of
discovered who I was, and
they started tapping me on
the shoulder, "Oh, we have a
big RFP and we need help, uh,
you know, answering questions
about AI innovation."
Or in this other competitive
deal we're in, you know, they
ask us about this feature that
a competitor doesn't have.
Do we, do we have that?
And I started recognising that
product roadmap was a problem.
And so I dug in, I met
with some of these groups
at SCO and realised that,
the roadmap existed.
It was in various places.
it was not like one
centralised customer
roadmap that I was used to.
There's, you know, a process
or a tiering related to, you
know, deals of this size.
You know, uh, an SC
would present it.
That size you get a PMM
or a product manager, this
size execs, et cetera.
was a pretty clear d- direct
line to that gap in product
marketing that had been there.
sales reps were going
directly to the product
team, uh, when there was
a product, uh, roadmap
request from a customer.
Uh, obviously, product
managers wanna, wanna add
a little bit of friction
there so that they can focus
on developing the roadmap.
Uh, but it was kind of
creating confusion and
some scramble and maybe us
showing up to some customer
calls without the roadmap
that we would want to.
I also, saw opportunities
with, like, how to objection
handle against some certain,
features on a competitive
roadmap that no PMM had
just kind of sat, had the
opportunity to sit, think
about what our roadmap
was in context of that
objection, and have those
kind of quick, uh, one to two
liners that help with that.
So as I was at SCO and I
was in those meetings, I was
like, "Okay, there's another
problem here that I could
take a look at and solve."
I have to point something
out just as you were talking.
What I noticed is that you
didn't download a bunch of
data, shove it into Claude
or some AI tool of choice,
and have it tell you what
you needed to go work on.
You sat and listened, and
you used your, what I guess
the, the kids these days are
calling marketing judgment.
Taste, whatever
you wanna call it.
I'm just saying your, like,
experience and expertise.
Yeah.
I mean, I-- gosh, is
that a differentiator?
That's gonna make
me cry a little bit.
But
yeah.
No, I mean, I mean, it was,
it was about just not being
rigid and, I certainly
would've liked to have
updated, uh, the website or
gone to these sales resources.
Like that kind of, that
kind of stuff's about as
close as I get to going
to the movies these days.
But, this was a need and I
recognized pretty quickly
because there were some,
late-stage deals coming up
where they needed help kind of
aggregating this for audiences
of users, and then eventually
like a final call with the
decision-maker where I had
to like-- I remember sitting
down with our AI PMM at sales
kickoff and be like, "Hey,
here's a bunch of slides I've
found in different places.
Like is this blessed
on the roadmap?
Is this blessed on
the roadmap?" And it
was like, "Yes, that
one is, that one is.
We're not doing
that one anymore.
By the way, here's three
new other things that aren't
on there." And I just kind
of like first like hacked
together, quote unquote,
this initial roadmap that
helped us like move the
ball forward on these.
Um, and you know, one of those
you said at, uh, at the top
of the call, one of those,
uh, deals we brought our chief
product officer in to present
it to the decision-maker, and
it didn't happen immediately,
but within two months it led
to us winning the biggest
deal of the year so far.
That's pretty incredible.
So it started with here
you joined the team,
you immediately get some
shakeup, you acquire
a few other members.
you bring in your tried
and true playbooks.
You're gonna-- You, you see
all these opportunities with,
you know, potentially the
website, potentially here and
there, and then you thought,
"Okay, well we're, let's
do the first call deck."
And as you're digging into
that, then you start to
identify this recurring
need within the business
of roadmap confusion.
Sounds super chao- chaotic,
which I personally have
been in that situation as
a product marketer with my
sales team and, you know,
kind of being the referee
between PM and salespeople,
and sometimes it even demands
a product manager's time to
go into customer meetings,
which can be beneficial, but
can also be not beneficial.
So it can be totally chaotic.
And, um, so once you did that
and you started to create
this, you know, we're calling
it the roadmap story, I
guess like what i- is that
what you actually built?
I mean, like talk us
through a little bit more
what, what you built.
So I think we established
the proof of concept t- uh,
for the, that first deal.
Then, within like a week
or so, probably like within
seven to 10 days after
that meeting, our CEO was
going on a trip to Europe,
visit our big customers,
shake hands, roadshow.
And she says: Hey, can you
build me a thematic roadmap?
So looking at what our
innovation plan was for
the year, um, and kind of
bucketing things into like
a single slide that showed
where we're investing, what
our strategy was, and then,
you know, kind of like
light gates, light timeline
associated with that.
Um, so I worked with
our chief product
officer to deliver that.
But then like a good,
uh, improv artist, I
yes, and-ed, knowing that
there had been this need
for kind of slideware
associated with individual
features on that roadmap.
I kind of a- uh, appended
that to the end of it.
I aligned the slides in
our different product
areas to the themes on the
roadmap, um, and kind of
rolled out a, a full-fledged
roadmap that the CEO could
take on tour with her.
and she was presenting
it with customers.
and like I remember getting
these, these like five-minute
video, uh, updates, uh,
in intervals of, Leigh
Margaret, our CEO, we call
her LM in case I say it that
again, saying like: Hey,
this is, this is so great.
Like this, this bucket
of the vision is landing.
This one isn't as much.
Like, I wonder if we
called it this or that.
Um, and me and my chief
product officer were like,
you know, either like pushing
back on concepts we liked
or, or other ones like, "Hey,
like, let's try this." And
we iterated in real time on
the roadmap with customers.
And it was, it was
really exciting.
it helped out a lot in a
lot of those meetings there.
And then when we came back,
I ended up kind of scope
creeping myself because I
had-- I was ready to roll
out that first call deck to
everyone, and she came back
and said, "This thing is
working. We need to teach
the field how to use it."
And so we ended up, uh,
enabling the entire field,
on how to use that roadmap.
We had different expectations
for if you were an SC who is
k- gonna be more technical
versus a CSM or account
manager and you're working
with customers versus a,
um, you know, an AE who,
you know, may be working a
new business opportunity.
So good.
I have to comment on how
kind of unglamorous some of
this was in the beginning.
You know?
It kind of started with you
found a problem, and you
kinda just kept inserting
yourself into that recurring
theme of a problem, and how
it evolved into, and this is
kind of the cherry on top.
Yes, it was a roadmap,
I'm calling it maybe
a roadmap strategy.
It, but it sounds like it
evolved into your narrative,
like your innovation
narrative that you then
enabled the field on,
which kind of is messaging.
It did.
It did, and it, and actually
that's a great point because
also we paired it with, our
CEO's kind of vision talk
track for these customers.
And that was close to
what we had for the
first call narrative.
There was, um… And, but
it did create this, uh,
flywheel where there were
elements of the vision that
are still, like, market
level that, um, you know,
wouldn't be appropriate
for a first call, uh, deck.
But we fed some of that stuff,
the stuff that really worked,
into the, the next iteration
of the first call deck that
we enabled sales reps on.
and then we also, and
this was a learning from
Elena, our chief product
officer, the roadmap was a
great hook for discovery.
And so when I, in my
session where I enabled
the field on it, I actually
spent more time, on, um,
the situations and based
on different personas or
contact types that they
would encounter in a deal,
at what elevation they would
do, they would do discovery.
And I spent maybe more
time on that, uh, than
I did on like the actual
feature functionality on
the roadmap, to the chagrin
of like a couple of folks
who maybe were expecting
that technical deep dive.
But I think that was, you
know, that was something
that our sales leaders
had huge appetite for,
um, and, uh, proved to be
really valuable in the end.
This is so good.
So like, I was gonna-- Uh, you
actually answered a question
I was gonna ask you anyway.
I was gonna ask you about
how you kind of scaled this
whole thing out, 'cause you
mentioned that this started
with winning the biggest deal
of the year, and then you
obviously scaled it out and
enabled the entire field.
But I love even the way that
you thought through it in
terms of persona and, you
know, the different talk
tracks and like all the way
to discovery, not even to, you
know, actual open prospect,
Well, and like this-- and
some of this is feedback
from another thing that I
did that was a quick win
for an org that hadn't had
a lot of product marketing
with, um, where it could seem
game-changing was I previewed
it for sales leaders before
I rolled it out to reps.
and said like, "Hey, this
is what we're presenting.
This is the talk track.
Like, tell me, what
is your feedback as
a, as a sales leader?
Like, is this solving
the right problems?
What guardrails do we need to
put up for reps?" You know, it
didn't get, you know, everyone
will try and like wordsmith
it when you get it with them,
and I me- you know, depending
on who it was, sometimes
you accept some of those.
But it really gave us the
opportunity to do discovery
around the process and
where, you know, they needed
to up-level reps and what
problems it could help solve.
Wow.
Okay.
And real quick, from the time
you started in January 2026,
when did you enable the field?
Like how many months
So that was April that
we enabled them on
the, um, on the roadmap
That is a extremely fast win
Yeah.
like a brand
Or actually, I
take it back, May.
Sorry.
Sorry, Harry.
Let's
take
That's still-- I
think anything within
the first, anything
yeah
months at, at that scale, at
that scale is pretty huge.
It-- I found a problem to
solve, and I was, I was
fortunate because there have
been moments i-in my career at
like Outreach or at LinkedIn
where I worked on something
that was that project
that gets you visibility.
in some of those situations,
you're being voluntold and you
kind of recognize that this is
your opportunity, um, versus
this is one where I'd seen
that enough times that I just,
I knew that that was gonna be
my, be the opportunity for it.
So you, you kind of ruthlessly
prioritize those opportunities
when you see them.
Like you said, you kind of
insert yourself into the
problem to make sure that
it gets recognized and the
rest happens from there.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, so you actually are
helping segue into what
I wanted to, start to
transition into, which
is the, the playbook.
But before we dig into the
playbook, so possibly the
most important part, which
you're just bringing up, the
most important part of this
whole story was actually not
the impact to the business,
which was impressive in and
of itself, but it's actually
the impact to your career.
So you joined as VP of
product marketing in January,
and then you had this huge
early win for you and your
team, and obviously there
were some ex- there's
other events that happened,
but this also had an
influence on your career
change within the company.
So it did.
so a couple of months
ago, uh, I worked with an
amazing CMO who decided to
leave the business, um, uh,
on kind of mutual terms.
And when our CEO was
looking for a new hire,
you know, she j- she came
to me and said, "I'd like
you to, step into a VP of
marketing role, a broader
marketing role instead."
I mean, I obviously said yes.
I- you're gonna see me…
I'm, I'm very awkward at
self-promoting, which is
gonna be, uh, contradictory
to one of my points in the
playbook in the future.
But, uh, it's been a cool…
I'm about three months in.
It's been, it's been
a great experience.
it's given me opportunity
to now extend this, this,
uh, same philosophy to
other sides of the business.
And, uh, I spent a year
on the revenue marketing
team at Outreach, so I'm
flexing some of those
demand gen muscles again.
but that kind of, that,
that exposure and that
visibility and kind of early,
building credibility with
the rest of the C-suite
helped me kind of, uh, be
positioned for that next step.
I love this because I feel
like for this particular
episode, it's really
like we're getting two
case studies in one.
Like on one hand, we're
getting the case study on
like, you know, how to do this
really innovative or like, um,
you know, building your vision
narrative through the roadmaps
and enabling the team.
But then on the other hand,
we're getting this like
career playbook, which,
which is the one that I
wanna focus on, 'cause I
think that's, that's one
that I haven't really covered
on this podcast before.
And it's, feels like sometimes
the best kept secret to
building positive reputation
for yourself early on in
any role, whether, you
know, you're more a lower
level, level or more senior.
So let's turn this
into a playbook.
Let's pretend that you
are my career coach and,
you know, I'm a PMM at
a different company.
Obviously, I'm not
assuming to get some
like VP of, of marketing
type of promotion, right?
There's other events
that transpired.
But the playbook that I want
to emphasize on is making
yourself or making myself
be visible and having a
big win for my reputation,
whether that's me as an
individual contributor or
like me as a team leader.
So if that's my goal, what is
step one for this playbook?
So step one is for the
playbook, don't be precious
about your playbook.
if you go in very
prescriptive, no, like
just looking to run back
what you did at the last
one, you might get lucky
and it's a business with
that same set of problems.
but more often than
not, you may be trying
to move the needle on
something where the needle
doesn't need to be moved.
and this is something
I learned from my
days at LinkedIn.
you know, first time
on the job as a PMM,
go meet everyone.
Uh, meet-- Uh, I joined
LinkedIn, I was at the
middle of this highly
cross-functional launch, and
I was working with product,
marketing, sales, CS, data
science, engineering, PR.
I-- So many stakeholders,
some of them I ended up
working more closely with,
some of them I didn't, but
I got to get a sense of like
where there were issues,
and, um, you know, figure
out what were high visibility
problems that I should be
focusing my attention on.
and then, uh, and like do
the same everywhere you go.
If you do go, just meet that,
um, uh, meet people, try and
form relationships, try and
understand, you know, like
what's going well, what's not.
you know, they say like,
um, you know, one's an
opinion, two's a pattern,
three is, is a trend.
Like you start to see
the trends of, of issues
that, are worth your time.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
So not necessarily throw
away your playbooks,
but don't necessarily
run them right away.
You got to go learn
the business before
you start executing
Or like if we wanna, if
we wanna use the metaphor,
it's like know which
chapter of your playbook
you would start on.
Sometimes you're starting
at the beginning,
sometimes you're starting
True.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great point.
Okay, so what's step two?
Be opportunistic.
Be opportunistic.
If you recognize that
there's a problem, everyone
agrees it's a problem and
no one is taking action on
it, be the one to do it.
It, it might not be in your
PMM charter and, you know,
yes, like I know definition
of a PMM, you know, I feel
like sometimes PMMs don't
even know what a PMM is
anymore in this economy.
it's true, but you know,
sometimes it's worth it
to go out of your charter
if it's gonna help you get
stuff done and help the
business get stuff done.
It kind of earns you the
credibility to be kind of
stricter in that charter later
on and, and like really focus
on PMM as strategist is like
sometimes you just got to make
a couple of decks and if you
make a couple of decks it'll
solve a problem and, you know,
it buys you the credibility
to operate strategically or
focus on those other aspects.
Yeah.
And then would you also
suggest that and maybe I don't
wanna reveal too much of your
playbook later, but like if
you pick a problem that maybe
falls, what- whether, whether
or not it falls outside of
product marketing, but like
do you do a kind of like tell
them what you're gonna do, do
it, and then tell them what
you did and tell them again?
Like do you do a lot of
that, and is that part
of your later playbook?
I'm sorry if I just
jumped ahead.
I uh, I can't remember when
I, when I said this to you.
Yes, I did say that to
you in this chapter.
Uh, no, it's all good.
It's a good reminder.
Like, you gotta be out--
You, you also have to
like, what I say is like
market your marketing.
and You have to, like I
say, market your marketing.
it's one thing to
actually like, to
actually fix the problem.
It's another thing to fix the
problem, tell the organization
that you fixed it, how you
fixed it, why you fixed
it, tag the people who,
um, who contributed to it.
Kind of be that sa-
shameless self-promoter,
but also do it magnanimously
where you're sharing
credit with other people.
uh, that's a way where,
being opportunistic about
the problem will, will
kind of stick in the
organizational memory.
Yeah, I love that.
I also want to point out
because lately in some other
marketing communities I've
been in, I see some, Debbie
Downers that are like, "Oh,
marketing always has to
market their marketing." Every
good organization does that.
It's just not marketing
their marketing.
they're all-- Everyone's
going on tour internally
for the work they're doing.
And so he- here's the
thing, like public
service announcement.
Your demand gen team is
suppressing your digital
creative from your company.
So they're not--
They're literally not
seeing your marketing.
So it's a physical… Unless
you're buying billboards
on the 580, we-- Like you--
It's a non-negotiable.
I love doing it to the
point of being annoying.
Yeah.
And it's not
annoying, actually.
I think it, uh, turns
out being helpful.
Okay, so what is step three?
Was that step three or do we
Connect the win to a
bigger business problem.
Um, yeah.
So don't l- let a
successful project
remain, uh, in isolation.
This is where that
feedback loop, uh, between
or the flywheel between
the roadmap and the CEO
vision and that first
call deck came into place.
One fed another.
We were able to, uh, you know,
I had launched the Honda Civic
version of the first call
deck after, after the roadmap.
It was going well, but
then the vision evolved,
the roadmap evolved,
the messaging evolved.
Um, I was able, uh, I'd grown
the team out at that point,
and so I had a couple of PMMs
kind of up-level that, uh,
that first call deck, and
they just shipped the new
version of it to the field.
It's 10 times better than
what I did before, and, um,
the reps are getting really
good results using that same
talk track, uh, on calls,
at events, uh, et cetera.
I love that.
Okay, so we talked about,
I'm just trying to like
recap for a minute here.
We talked about, um, step
one was not basically
reverting back to your,
your first playbooks, right?
Um, it's more of like
doing that listening tour.
And then step two was to be
opportunistic, and when you
start to see that trend,
then to jump on that trend.
And part of that was to
market your marketing.
Somewhere in there
is market your
Yes.
Yeah.
And then
We can just make step
three market your marketing
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
And then what will be step
four, that connecting to
the bigger business problem,
which is, might be one of
the most important parts,
and it's part of, I think,
marketing your marketing is
connecting some of those, all
that work you're doing to that
bigger, big business problem.
Is there anything else to this
playbook or am I, am I set to
go try to make an, an impact-
I think that's it.
PMM is really a relation--
a relationship game, and
this playbook is all about
basically being like a
good, a good teammate.
Like
I was literally thinking that.
This is about being
a good teammate.
Yeah
you're listening in to
the problems that people
actually have instead of just
doing what you want to do.
you're kind of giving
people the roadmap.
You're showing them that
you're working on it,
keeping them updated,
giving credit to others.
And then you're also you're
showing the outcomes of
what you did, using that
to launch the next thing
that's going to be connected
to that bigger business
problem that you solved.
That's just what, you
know, we expect out of a
Yeah.
teammate.
Totally.
Yeah.
Being in product
marketing is team sports.
That should be on,
ooh, hiring question.
Uh,
sports did you play
growing up?
Or what's your favorite team
like that, that, yeah,
Just Kidding.
Kidding.
It's a ta- taking it too far.
Let's test them.
As a, yeah, as a guy, uh,
as a, as a certain type of
bro, I don't think I should
screen my candidates by what
team sports did you play.
But, but I like it.
I like, I like, I
appreciate the sentiment.
Spirit of
it, okay?
Spirit.
Calm down, everyone.
I
gonna be biased.
Calm down.
Okay.
All right.
Last question for
you on this topic.
what advice do you have,
like one piece of advice
do you have if you want
someone to walk away from
this conversation with just
like one big takeaway about
how to make a big impact
early on, um, when they
first join a company in
a product marketing role?
What's the big takeaway?
Find a problem usually
connected to revenue,
and that's gonna be
the right one to solve.
it can be a degree or two
away from the actual problem.
there is a straight line
into, into, like, existing
deals, but That wasn't the
pain point the reps were
talking about at first.
They were just talking about,
"Oh my God, I have this b-
this big call, hair on fire.
I don't know if I have the
slides in place." there was
a, there was a small painful
benefit that I was eventually
able to connect to revenue,
and that's why that was impact
Mm. That's a really good tip.
And sometimes it may
not come directly from
your sales stakeholders
it could be, it could
be, it could be from CSS.
stakeholder?
Yeah.
Exactly.
It,
Yeah.
it usually just, um, you
know, it's how you know
if you actually need
to, update the website.
There likely might be a
lead problem, like not, uh,
that's usually a sign that
the site's not converting
or we're not converting
the right type of traffic.
you know, all problems should
at least uh, connect to
revenue, otherwise they're
inconveniences, which
there's plenty of in, in a,
in a working environment.
So, uh, look for problems
that eventually connect
to revenue, and you'll be
solving the right ones.
Yeah.
So good.
I love that tip.
This was such a
great case study.
Again, I feel like we got
bonus case studies in this
one, so thank you so much.
This was a very
generous conversation.
Um, but now I would like
to switch gears a little
bit into the second segment
of our show, which is
the messaging critique.
So this is where, um, as
product marketing experts,
Jeremy, you and I get to
analyze real world messaging,
and the fun part is you
get to pick the company
or campaign that we are
going to talk about today.
Uh, just some
quick ground rules.
Yeah, just some quick ground
rules before we get started.
So first, um, you're going to
obviously reveal the company,
and then you're gonna tell
me, um, what you're really, uh
We'll briefly talk through
like what is their messaging,
and then you're gonna tell
me what you're loving about
it, something that's working
really well, um, what you wish
the PMM would've considered
differently, and then we'll
iterate on how the PMM can
take it to the next level.
So without further ado, please
reveal the company that we
will be discussing today
So I picked a small little
startup known as ServiceNow.
Um,
Just a tiny little
startup.
company.
Um, and, and so I chose
ServiceNow, me being the,
uh, you know, former sales
guy and sales tech marketer
I am, I chose their sales
solution, uh, ServiceNow CRM.
And I thought this was
interesting because I wanted
to look at what happens
when, you know, tech giants
of the world decide to focus
on a specific persona, and
maybe a specific persona
that is not the same
persona who they typically,
uh, would, um, market to
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, um, ServiceNow CRM
or sales CRM, uh, what
exactly-- what-- so they're,
they-- what exactly is it?
I mean, it's a CRM,
but
it's, it's their-- So
it's, it's their CRM.
It's-- I, I think the, um,
the value prop of it is Is
it's connected to agents,
and agents specifically, um,
are helping in a lot of the,
like, quote-to-cash of it all.
So automating a lot of the
internal busy work, um,
associated with managing CRM,
uh, that, um, uh, that keeps
sales reps away from external
activities with customers.
Um, which was,
was interesting.
It's a space I'm familiar with
with my Terminus outreach,
but they're, um, they're
applying it to a slightly
different, um, different
audience, which is nice.
Okay.
So I'm seeing thank
you for sharing their,
um, the page up now.
So for those of you who are
just listening on audio,
I see that the big
headline says, "Autonomous
CRM for sales."
And then below that it
says, "Free your teams by
automating the busy work
from lead to quote to
fulfillment order so sellers
spend more time closing
and less time clicking."
So this headline is so
interesting because I
feel like it's the type of
thing that only ServiceNow
can get away with.
Um, I, I've noticed having
collaborated with product
managers on web messaging
several times that they
like to describe AI
products as autonomous.
And I initially-- like I
read this at first and I was
like, "Ugh, an autonomous CRM
that actually is a digital
nightmare as a salesperson."
But I th- then I just started
thinking about ServiceNow
and their brand, and
autonomous is their brand.
They were kind of forefront
leaders in, um, in AI and
AI agents.
And so it makes me
think of, okay So it's
a CRM from ServiceNow.
Autonomous is their brand,
and so it actually makes
me believe it a little bit
more that they're gonna
automate the busy work
than everyone else who is,
um, making that same claim
I was gonna say
the same thing.
Like, on one hand, I at first
would wonder or I would write
it off as, "Oh, that's an
overpromise." But I don't.
I don't because
it's ServiceNow.
They have kind of that
halo effect of that broader
narrative that they've been
driving for a long time
Exactly.
Exactly right
Um, okay.
So what's something-- So
that's obviously what's
working really well.
What's something that
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently?
So I think we have a
little bit of persona
in, uh, confusion.
They very rightly with
like, "Free your teams from
automating busywork from
lead to quote to fulfilled
order, so sellers spend
much less, spend more time
closing, less time clicking."
That's a very smart headline.
shout out to the
Fletch PMM guys.
It's focusing on the champion.
It's focusing on the
person who's doing the
web research and is maybe
not the decision-maker
themselves, maybe not the
end user, but is that person
that's gonna initiate an
evaluation and kind of
steer, uh, um, uh, steer
a buying decision through.
That's the right
person to target with
a web landing page.
You get into this next
section, "Automate the grind,
accelerate the close." This
is a little bit more of that
like, you know, kind of, I
hate to say it, bro-y, "Wolf
of Wall Street" sales AE
yes.
They're stereotyping
Yeah.
bros a little bit,
Yeah, exactly.
tech sales ladies,
but it's, it's
Um,
men,
yes.
Yeah.
Um, and, and so that felt a
little bit of confusion, but
it-- they sucked me in again.
Um, this use case, um,
switcher, kind of brings
it back to that champion
where it's these, um, value
statements associated with
accelerating pipeline or
forecasting confidently seem
to be at the right elevation.
Uh, and it's act- these
are actually good, value
statements because they're
kind of a shared benefit
between every member of the
sales org, whether you're,
uh, a rep or rev ops or a CRO.
you know, fast, like more
pipeline, a trustworthy
forecast, faster quoting.
These are all things that,
um, you know, everyone
in the revenue org i-
is, uh, struggles with
and is incentivized to
find a solution for.
I also really just shout
out to the experience
of this.
It's really cool.
It's a very cool experience
because I'm not overwhelmed
by the value props, but
there are a lot here
Yep.
Um, yeah, I love a, love
a switcher on a, uh, on a
five use case, uh, slide,
uh, a five use case carousel
Totally.
And then these ones too, I
mean, th- and this is als-
uh, so we've got, um, we went
through the promises and now
we're getting into some, like,
tangible use case language.
And this is where you also
kind of see the, um, the
impact of LLMs, right?
Like, this is, like
straightforward, this
is less outcome-based.
It's just the, "Hey, what do
you do with it?" Like, and you
could see someone, you know,
searching for these terms or
asking, uh, their AI agent
of choice of like, "What's
the best tools to configure
price and quote?" Uh, and so
grounding their use cases, um,
in these tangible language,
uh, I think is, you know,
just really clear and easy to
understand and also probably
helps them on AI search.
Yeah.
I'm looking at like proof
points that they-- I like.
So overall, just as you're
scrolling through this page,
it's a, it's actually a
really nice like storytelling.
Like it starts off with
like the brand halo, kind
of like as you pointed out,
like communicating to the
right persona who would
be the person, um, kind
of selecting the tool and
then going, jumping into
the shared, outcomes and
then into the use cases.
And then it goes into,
of course, a download
of some kind, an e-book.
And then it, and then it
goes into proof points.
You've got some quotes
from, and some outcomes
or results from current
customers, um, which
is just a nice,
And they're,
cherry on top
And they're all like
lower numbers, which
is really interesting.
It's about getting time, this
order under a minute, zero
delays in processing orders.
Um, it was like one platform
for quote to cash even.
And in the, in the
world of 10X everything,
Yes, 100%, 99.99… Yeah,
right
They're, talking about
getting like uh, 40% decrease
in quote processing time.
It's, uh, they're standing,
they're-- These are all
outcomes everyone wants,
but it's by getting
the numbers smaller
I like that.
Yeah.
Good call out.
Okay, is there anything
else to this story?
Mm. And, you know, w- like,
like any good marketer does,
they close it with their
tagline and with the CTA.
Like, I think, "Let's put
AI to work." I think I've
seen those in the Idris Elba
commercials and on billboards.
and, uh, contact us.
So they take you through
the whole story and then
prime you to sign up.
Uh, it's just, it's a really
well done landing page.
Yeah.
The-- You took the words out
of myself, out of my mouth.
I was about to say like,
"Well, well done, ServiceNow."
Who knows?
Yeah, they know, they know a
thing over or two over there.
Yeah.
I guess I'll ask
you one thing.
If you were to take over this
page and this product and
this narrative today, what's
like one thing that you might
explore, maybe not necessarily
to do differently, but maybe
even just to evolve the story
or to, you know, to kind of
make it, make it bigger if
I have a question
about extensibility.
So the advantage of CRM
as a system of record is
its ability to connect
to other systems.
Um, and I think I do see
a tab, below the fold on
this, on the search here.
Uh, but it's-- I think that
is the one story that as I'm
doing that initial scroll,
I'd like to be a little bit
more discoverable early on.
I get that.
Yeah.
So yeah, absolutely.
So it kind of adds even more
to the story Good critique.
I li- I like that a lot.
Okay, well done ServiceNow.
We are very impressed.
only a few notes,
but they are minor.
Okay.
Well, Jeremy, one thing I
like to make space for on
this podcast is a moment
of gratitude, um, because
in product marketing,
none of us get to where we
are in our careers alone.
We are always learning
from each other, building
off each other, and
we are better for it.
Um, so before we wrap
up, I just wanna say a
genuine thank you for your,
obviously an, a super busy
marketing executive, so
taking your time to come
on the podcast and share
your experience, um, I'm so
grateful, so thank you so much
Oh my God, this is my,
this is my pleasure.
Like this, I, I've been
a fan from you from afar.
I reached out to you
proactively because you
did a, you did a messaging
critique of Outreach while I
was working there, and I was
like, "I agree with you." Um,
That one's also
a good one, yeah.
It was with Yi Lin
if anyone wants to go
give that a listen.
Yeah.
Um, but, um, yeah, no, I love,
I love talking shop and this
is my first opportunity to do
it and like, uh, on one of the
cool guy pro- PMM podcasts out
there, so this was fun for me.
Of course
and before we wrap up,
let's, um, I'd love to
turn around on you and
give you the opportunity
to shout out some PMMs.
Who do we have to thank
for shaping your expertise
and getting you where you
are today in your career?
so I love, I love doing this.
I actually have a
deck, uh, whenever I
transition a company,
I present to my teams.
It's called my coaching
tree, that, that's the
PMMs who influenced me
throughout my career.
Um, and so like, got to
give big shout-outs to
Neha Mamdani and Renata
Bell from, uh, LinkedIn.
They basically taught me
product marketing, uh, kind
of built up my confidence.
I had such imposter
syndrome going from small
ponds to being a, a, a big
pond like, uh, LinkedIn.
Renata just like literally
like gave me opportunities
that made me hap- that
like upleveled my career.
you know, Jordan Green
and Evan Klein and Andrea
Tucker from Outreach, um,
were really impactful.
Um, and Kristina Bottis,
the CMO who I worked with,
uh, at MURAL, all, all like
really transformational
people in the, in the course
of my career, and I wouldn't
be here without them.
I love that.
I'm so inspired by
your coaching tree.
That's your now we are
all little, um, leaflings
Yeah, exactly.
on the coaching tree
receiving some of the, um,
some of the coaching back.
So everything's full
source, full circle.
Um, all right, my last
question for you, I promise.
Uh, where else can we
access your expertise?
Is it best to find
you on LinkedIn?
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn,
uh, linkedin.com/jgmoscoe.
I've occasionally done
the-- and I need to get
back into it, I'm sorry,
Alex, the Sharebird AMAs.
I've been on-- I've
got a couple of those
hanging out there.
I got new busy as I was, um,
adjusting to the new gig.
Um, but yeah, if you--
I will, you know, if you
like occasional rants about
messaging, if, if I do my
thing right, I'll squeeze
some kind of reference
to '90s rap in there.
Uh, I'm on, uh, uh, I'm
on LinkedIn/jgmoscoe
Yeah, like every good
millennial should
Exactly.
Exactly right.
So good.
Well, thank you again, Jeremy.
This was so fun.
My pleasure.
Thank you, Al
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you like this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful
if you would leave a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.