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We are on a mission to find out how to be the best podcast guest.
Robert Ingalls - 00:00:04:
If the podcast has a thousand listeners, that is your unique opportunity to speak directly to those people. And I tell people to think about it like this. What would it be worth to you to gather a thousand people in a room, especially if it's a highly targeted audience, into a room and establish your expertise for 30 minutes?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:00:25:
I love that.
Robert Ingalls - 00:00:26:
A lot of people might pay 10 grand for something like that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:00:28:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:00:29:
That's where you are. And so respect that. Don't show up unprepared.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:00:39:
Welcome to the Podcast Ally podcast. I'm Dr. Sarah Glova, keynote speaker and workshop facilitator, and I'm on a mission to find out how to be the best podcast guest. So I'm talking with hosts, people who have been guests on hundreds of podcasts and podcast network executives so I can learn the good and bad, what works, what doesn't. How I can build my brand through podcast guesting. And so today I have Robert Ingalls, the founder and CEO of Law Pods. I love the shirt, by the way.
Robert Ingalls - 00:01:10:
Thank you.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:01:11:
Yeah. Always branding. Full service podcast production agency that works specifically with lawyers. I know all your clients aren't lawyers, but y'all market to lawyers.
Robert Ingalls - 00:01:19:
That's our niche.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:01:20:
I can't wait to hear more. Yeah. So welcome to the show.
Robert Ingalls - 00:01:22:
Thank you so much for having me. Super excited to be here. I've heard this is the first episode since new ownership has come on board. So I am ecstatic to be the first person in the chair.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:01:32:
Yeah, VIP status. So our first question on the first, all the first, our first question that we're going to be asking all of our podcast guests is, can you share your worst podcast experience?
Robert Ingalls - 00:01:45:
Yeah, it's pretty vivid in my mind. And in hindsight, it's almost kind of silly, like an inconsequential. But at the time, it really hurt my feelings. I had started a podcast in my law firm called The Future Self Podcast. You can still find it. We haven't published in six years, but it's coming back this year. And I had started in my law firm, and then I was doing kind of community stuff with it too. And just trying to build my own brand. I had no idea what that meant or what I was doing, but I was just getting people in the community. And I had gotten this guy who was kind of a, not local celebrity, but everybody knew him. He'd started this really cool chain of stores in Charlotte called Common Market. And he's just a really cool guy. He had a really cool story. And he came into the studio. And we did this awesome interview. It probably went 90 minutes. It was amazing. Like, he's so funny. I'm listening back to it. And it's clipping bad.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:02:54:
Oh no.
Robert Ingalls - 00:02:55:
I mean the whole thing. And I'd use the mixer I wasn't familiar with. This is back in the day when we didn't have the Rodecaster and things like that. So I'd learn to use a mixer and it was a different mixer. It was a much bigger one than I was accustomed to. And I had his channel, I had him set way too high. And I was nervous already, because I'm talking to this guy. And. I didn't know what to do with it. I sent it to this audio engineer, and he tried to work on it. And he was excited about his results. They were terrible. Nothing against him. Like, you can't take garbage and turn it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:03:25:
He made it better, but it was a better version of the garbage.
Robert Ingalls - 00:03:28:
It was so bad. Like, you couldn't understand it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:03:30:
I can feel this on, like, a soul level.
Robert Ingalls - 00:03:32:
Oh, I was devastated by it. And it was just this really upsetting moment. But in hindsight, it's like, eh.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:03:41:
No, you started this story saying it was inconsequential, and I feel like I'm going to have a nightmare about it tonight. Like, this is a podcast nightmare. But now you're saying it's, so what, now that you're looking back on it, like, what's changed between when that happened and now that makes you think, like, eh, it's kind of inconsequential?
Robert Ingalls - 00:03:55:
Well, you just keep moving.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:03:57:
You just keep moving.
Robert Ingalls - 00:03:58:
And it's a mindset thing, too, which at the time I was still learning. Because a big part of my, I mean, the main part of my podcasting journey from lawyer to podcaster started with a mindset shift of looking at the world differently. And that is not something that happens overnight. It's a process that continues as far as I can tell forever. And you just take the next step. We watch a lot of Frozen in my house. You do the next right thing.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:04:24:
The next right thing. That's from Frozen 2, y'all.
Robert Ingalls - 00:04:28:
And so since then, it's just step after step after step. Even when you make a mistake, you just go, okay, what can I learn from that? If I can fix it, I'll fix it. And then move forward with that knowledge.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:04:38:
Yes. So we're in the data revolution, right? We're in the data age. So my favorite thing to say is there's no good, bad, there's no success, fail. It's all just data. It's all just data. So you collected some data about that and you moved on, you kept going. I love it. Well, I think it's really inspiring to hear that somebody who literally runs a business producing amazing podcasts one time had a mixer mess up and had some garbage audio, which I'll use your term.
Robert Ingalls - 00:05:05:
I haven't heard the audio. It might not be as bad. Oh, it was so bad. Honestly, I haven't listened to it in years. I should really go back. I should publish it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:05:10:
One of my favorite mentors is this guy, Stan Phelps. He's amazing. And he shared with me something a mentor told him once, which is if you don't look back at your first product, your first attempt with a little bit of embarrassment, you probably waited too long.
Robert Ingalls - 00:05:23:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:05:23:
For a night.
Robert Ingalls - 00:05:24:
I think about that a lot. Like every two years, I want to look back and be like, oh, that's not great.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:05:30:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:05:30:
Because if I'm not, I'm not going fast enough.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:05:33:
Taking that next right step, just like Ana.
Robert Ingalls - 00:05:38:
Going to call back to that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:05:38:
All right. So coming back to our topic for today, since you manage so many amazing podcasts, I imagine that you've seen what outreach looks like for folks who want to be guests on podcasts. Yeah. You've seen, you said have I. So for, for me and for our listeners, I want to talk to you a bit, a bit about how do we reach out to somebody when we want to be a guest? So being an agency owner in your position, do you get, do you get pitched a lot? What does that look like?
Robert Ingalls - 00:06:05:
Yeah, a lot, a lot.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:06:06:
A lot, a lot.
Robert Ingalls - 00:06:06:
And sometimes I'll email them back and just with curiosity of where did you find this address? How did you, what made you think this was the message that was going to work? Like, I don't know. It depends on my mood. But sometimes I am interested because... I'll get emails when my email as far as I can tell, isn't publicly related to the show.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:06:29:
So you do want to know, like, where'd you find me?
Robert Ingalls - 00:06:31:
Yeah. And I'm a marketer in my heart. And I want to know, like, hey, what are you up to? How'd you find that? I'd like to know more about that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:06:37:
Okay, so you respond with curiosity. And who are you responding to? Is this people who are reaching out? PR agencies? Like who usually finds you?
Robert Ingalls - 00:06:43:
It's a mix. It's people, it's PR, a lot of PR agencies. And... I was excited to come have this conversation because I have worked with a number of pitching agencies, and I've received a lot of pitches, and they are almost all terrible. Well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, they just, it's spray and pray. It's let me just shoot this out.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:07:08:
So yeah, when you see them, they are going for quantity over quality.
Robert Ingalls - 00:07:13:
We have the most amazing guests in the world. And here is everything they've ever done in their life. And this is why they would be so great. They can talk about all these things. Well, why does that matter to me?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:07:24:
And they don't know you from Adam, as we say here in the South.
Robert Ingalls - 00:07:27:
Yeah, why is that a good personal relationship?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:07:28:
They maybe aren't talking about your specific podcast or you specifically. This is stuff that you can tell they're sending to everyone.
Robert Ingalls - 00:07:34:
Right.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:07:34:
Yeah. Okay, so then what do the good ones look like?
Robert Ingalls - 00:07:39:
Here is the value I will bring to your listener. I know who you are. Because that's number one for me. If you're going to be a guest, it needs to be value for the listener. Value for you is great, but what are you going to do for me? Now, if I recognize your name when the email comes in. That probably solves the problem right there.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:07:59:
That probably helps, yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:07:59:
Right. I know who you are. That value is established already, but frequently that's not the case. And... If you just come in with I'm the greatest person in the world, I can tell you showed up to pitch yourself. And that's not, most people are not trying to have a show where you pitch yourself because podcast listeners. Are not there to be advertised to. They will suffer advertisement for good value.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:08:23:
Right.
Robert Ingalls - 00:08:24:
But they will not show up just to be advertised to. And if you just show up trying to sell them something right away without giving any value. And podcast hosts know that. And you're going to have trouble getting on shows with serious podcast hosts, with established listenerships.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:08:43:
Something you said that's really sticking out to me is, because I think when I apply to be on a podcast, I try to put myself in the host's shoes and think about what they want. But what you said is, think about what they want for their listeners, which is taking it a bit further. So not just what would this podcast host be interested in, what would their show be interested in, but what do they want their listeners to get a chance to hear? So really focusing on that listener experience.
Robert Ingalls - 00:09:08:
Well, and I almost go immediately there because I understand generally what the podcast host is trying to do. Most podcast hosts are trying to create some kind of value. For their listener. Now they want a return on that value and they're doing it for a reason. And frequently I'll try to figure out what's that reason? What is that podcast host doing? Because some podcast hosts, a big part of their show isn't so much listenership as it is networking. They've created a show, but it's really just a vehicle to sit down and have a conversation.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:09:37:
With people they think are interesting, who they want to be connected with.
Robert Ingalls - 00:09:40:
Right. And the listener is more of an afterthought that's very different. And that might be an easier show to put yourself to get on. And so thinking through... Why does the show exist? To the best you can. You can't always tell from the outside.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:09:52:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:09:52:
Why does it exist? What is a win for the host?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:09:53:
What is a win for the host?
Robert Ingalls - 00:09:58:
Right.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:09:58:
I love it.
Robert Ingalls - 00:09:59:
What's a win for them? How can I do something for them that is going to elevate them, that they're going to feel like that was good, I wanted that?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:10:06:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:10:06:
And what is a win for the listener? If the podcast has 1,000 listeners, that is your unique opportunity to speak directly to those people. And I tell people to think about it like this. What would it be worth to you to gather a thousand people in a room, especially if it's a highly targeted audience, into a room and establish your expertise for 30 minutes an hour?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:10:30:
I love that.
Robert Ingalls - 00:10:31:
A lot of people might pay 10 grand for something like that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:10:33:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:10:35:
And that's where you are. So respect that. Don't show up unprepared. Figure out what you're going to be talking about. Have an understanding. Make sure that when you pitch somebody, you actually can deliver the goods too.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:10:48:
So the way you just shared that, it gave me a visual. I'm picturing a room with 1,000 people, 250 people even.And I'm thinking, okay, so there's a podcast host who's kind of at the door. And if I want to get in, what would I say to the podcast host? I would not walk up and be like, here's all the great things about me. To try to get into that room. I would say like. I think I can bring a lot of value to the folks that you have in there. I know you worked really hard to bring them. So if you let me in, I'll tell them some stuff that they'll think it's really interesting. They'll want to keep coming back to the room that you've created. I think that visual is really powerful because when we're applying to a podcast, maybe the visual we have is like. Their thumbnail, right? Their podcast graphic. And it's not that. It's this room full of people that you could connect with. And so to get in, it's thinking through helping the podcast host to think through what you could bring to those listeners.
Robert Ingalls - 00:11:41:
I understand who you are. I understand your show. I understand your listeners. Here's why I'm uniquely qualified to deliver value to them. And even past that, here is how I am uniquely qualified to deliver value to them. Even if they never speak to me again. That's where I start. If they never call me, if they never do business with me, they're better because they spent 30 minutes with me. And if you go in with that attitude where you're really genuinely trying to help somebody and to deliver value. Only good things can come from that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:12:13:
That's a great mindset. So, okay, we have that mindset, and we're going to go look for some shows that we want to. Apply to be on or ask to be on, and we're going to bring that mindset with us. How do you recommend folks go about finding some shows that they might try to reach out to?
Robert Ingalls - 00:12:28:
I mean, that is the trouble. In my experience, it's legwork. It really can be. To craft a pitch to somebody that goes through the steps that we just went through. It can take time.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:12:44:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:12:45:
And the way I've done it, especially in the beginning before I was using any agencies, is I would go through, I'd search for keywords, and... Then I'd listen to episodes. I'd scan through a lot and I'd see, do I recognize anybody? Do I have a contact in this guest list? Because contact will really help you get a warm intro. And if I have a contact in there, I'll listen to that contacts episode. And then I'll almost always try to listen to a recent episode. And even if I don't use it in my pitch, I'll use it in the interview. I'll be like, I'll say, for instance, when you were talking to Jon Hamm about how handsome he is. You know? And, I mean, just you can see the podcast host just go, wow, this is going to be great.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:13:30:
Such a great trick. I love that.
Robert Ingalls - 00:13:31:
And it just, but you did listen and you did like it. But it's a way to just establish that you're not just here. Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:13:41:
Yeah. You used the word respect earlier and the idea of kind of respecting that room and why the listeners were there. And I think it's a bit of a show of respect. Like, hey, I listened to some of your past episodes. Really enjoyed that joke that you shared about XYZ and just the rapport that that establishes immediately. Wow. So you might not use it in your pitch, but good to go listen to some of the episodes. And then do you have a favorite way to be contacted? Do you prefer like email or contact form or LinkedIn message or?
Robert Ingalls - 00:14:08:
It's tough. Probably LinkedIn because I get so much email. And it's a lot of times I'll see an email and I won't even, I'll think, oh, I need to do something with that. And it disappears.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:14:21:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:14:22:
And I'll never see it again. And so I do appreciate follow-up. With a big caveat.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:14:28:
I was going to say, how much, how much followup do you, when do you appreciate followup? And what's the line of. Appreciating follow-up. What's too much follow-up?
Robert Ingalls - 00:14:37:
I mean, I think three or so in a short period of time is more than enough. And then, you know, a couple months later, a few months later, whatever. Knock on the door again. But... It's hard to say because for me, it's annoying, annoying, annoying. Oh, that's something I'd want.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:14:56:
You don't need it till you need it.
Robert Ingalls - 00:14:57:
Yeah. And most of the messages I get are nonsense. Every once in a while, I get something that I appreciate. And so I don't want to discourage people from trying to do that. As somebody who really enjoys sales and marketing. I see it as my duty. To spread my message because I cannot help you. And I think I'm, I think I can in a, in a very big way. And it's my job to let you know that I exist.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:15:26:
You can't help somebody if they don't know you exist, if they haven't heard your message. And so thinking about the message that you want to share, it's really important to you to be out there and sharing it. And you can't do that if you're not, you know, getting onto some of these podcasts or talking about some of these people. And so because you believe in that mission, you feel confident that some follow-up is, is great, is appropriate, but there is a line I'm hearing. And I'm wondering, you know, it's like contingency theory. Like there's no perfect, it's like asking how long should an email be? It's like, I don't know. It depends. Right. But I think if you put yourself in that person's shoes, like how often would you want to be emailed? If something wasn't a perfect fit right then, and you were getting a lot of emails, would it be helpful maybe every quarter? And if you heard from that person, would you want the same message? Or maybe they have something new, like, Hey, I listened to your last episode.
Robert Ingalls - 00:16:11:
Oh, definitely something new.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:16:12:
Right. Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:16:13:
It should always be something new and it should lead with value. That why are you contacting me? That's it. For me, this is my experience, so take it with whatever grain of salt you can. But for me, I want to know in the first sentence why you're contacting me. Nothing frustrates me more than, that's a lie, many more things frustrate me more. But it's very frustrating when somebody, they connect with you on LinkedIn, and they connect with a message that's like, I'm trying to connect with like-minded individuals in my network.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:16:48:
And you said ChatGPT.
Robert Ingalls - 00:16:52:
All right, and then you just click accept because you're like, let's see. And then you look at your watch, like how long is the pitch? How long is it going to take, right? And inevitably, the pitch for something. They want to be on your show or they want to sell you something. And no, lead with that. Because I don't mind.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:17:12:
No, I would rather you lead with that than kind of trick me.
Robert Ingalls - 00:17:17:
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:17:17:
Right? It reminds me of, do you remember a couple years ago when all of a sudden everyone you knew from high school was messaging you on Facebook and asking how you were doing? And you were kind of like, this is so sweet. I haven't talked to this person in forever. And they were like, have you heard about these essential oils and how they can change your kitchen? You're like, I feel like such an idiot. Because when I responded to you and told you how I was doing and how my kids were, I thought you cared. And now I feel, if you had just said, hey, I'm working with this new thing and here's the benefits I found. I was wondering if you'd heard of it. I would have been more likely, honestly, to respond.
Robert Ingalls - 00:17:49:
Well, and you've generated bad will with me now.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:17:51:
Yeah, because I feel dumb.
Robert Ingalls - 00:17:52:
Right. And to be fair, this is something I learned a long time ago, is you are responsible for the way you make other people feel. And you can choose to not feel responsible. That's your choice. But I choose to feel responsible because I want the people around me to feel comfortable.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:18:11:
You have some intentionality when you think about how you affect others.
Robert Ingalls - 00:18:15:
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:18:15:
That's what I'm hearing, yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:18:16:
And that goes in my personal relationships. I just... I want people to feel comfortable. But then when I'm doing sales and marketing... Now I have a business interest in it. And I'm very interested in the way that I make the people around me feel. And so I want to navigate that space with respect. I want to make sure that I'm not creating that bad feeling in them of, hey, I just wanted to say hi and buy my thing. And because people don't like that and they're going to get that initial bad feeling for you. And now it's going to be really hard to flip them. It's hard to come back. Not impossible.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:18:54:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:18:54:
Because people will forget you fast enough. But they're not going to probably want to buy your thing right now. Now you've got to start back around, maybe see them at a conference or connect some different way. But the thing that you spent your time trying to do right now is probably not going to work because you've been slightly deceptive. And you've generated this mistrust right out of the gate, which is terrible. So for me, just in the opening pitch, here's my thing. Here's why I think you like it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:19:19:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:19:20:
Here's why I think it works for you. Perfect. Now I can choose in this moment whether I want to buy your thing or not. I appreciate your vision.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:19:26:
Yeah. So I heard that respect word again. I just want to call out, we've got a respect theme going on, which I really appreciate. When I'm thinking about what this email looks like, I have this nerdy background in communication, right? So I'm finding this fascinating. And I think this will be really helpful for folks. I feel like we're building a template almost. When I'm thinking about writing this message to you, if I want to get on one of the LawPods podcasts, and I think that you're my connection to the host, I might draft an email. Hey, Robert, here's a little bit about me. Really love your show. What I want to ask is, right? That would be my draft. But then based on the feedback you just shared, I'm going to take that last paragraph. I'm going to cut it and put it at the top. That last paragraph that's like, I think I would be an awesome guest on your show because I can help listeners understand how to do X, Y, Z. And based on the episodes I've heard, I think your listeners would be really engaged with that. And then everything else.
Robert Ingalls - 00:20:15:
I would keep reading.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:20:16:
Yes.
Robert Ingalls - 00:20:16:
Because I mean, you might lose me because it might actually not be great, but that's not what's important. You can't change. You are or what your actual value is. And sometimes it's not a good fit. And that's okay.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:20:29:
That's okay.
Robert Ingalls - 00:20:30:
But if you kept me reading, you're doing something right because you can't sell me if I don't keep reading. And now this might be the lawyer in me. I don't know if everybody's like that. But for me... Lead with it. You know, that's the thing that we learn in legal writing is like, it's called IRAC, issue. Start with the issue. What are we talking about? Do not bury it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:20:50:
Yeah. We have that in journalism. Don't bury the lead.
Robert Ingalls - 00:20:53:
Yeah, exactly. Judges will stop reading your brief if they can't figure out what you're talking about. Well, I guess it's not important.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:20:59:
Yeah. And just get to the point. I'm an Army Brat. And there's a phrase, it's called the bluff statement, which is misleading because it's not a bluff, like a fake. It's bottom line up front. Yeah. Because it's like, if you have this tactical military information, and it cracks me up because this is how my dad communicates. He'll like start with the biggest thing and then go with the details.
Robert Ingalls - 00:21:18:
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:21:18:
It's bottom line up front.
Robert Ingalls - 00:21:19:
Well, you know, you hear this all the time. Just when people are talking, they're like, get to it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:21:23:
Get to it.
Robert Ingalls - 00:21:24:
Especially if it's something where it feels like it's stressful. Like something's coming. You're like, stop with the suspense.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:21:30:
Stop with the suspense. I think the phrase I'm going to walk away with from this is going to be get to the dinosaurs. I read once that Steven Spielberg talked to a little kid about the first Jurassic Park. And the kid was like, I liked it, but it took forever to get to the dinosaurs.
Robert Ingalls - 00:21:42:
I hear that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:21:43:
And if you watch the second Jurassic Park, it's like instant dinosaurs. So we're encouraging folks, like, get to the dinosaurs. Start off with the Big Bang message, the ask. Don't feel like you have to bury it. It's actually unkind. Sometimes we think it's kind to lead with these niceties and kind of lead people in. But the kinder thing, the more respectful thing, to use your words, is to jump in with it.
Robert Ingalls - 00:22:04:
And we're busy. We don't even see that. We don't see those things anymore. At one point, remember when you used to get email marketing and then it started coming with your name?
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:22:14:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:22:15:
You're like, this person knows me.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:22:17:
They know me.
Robert Ingalls - 00:22:19:
And so that got our attention for a second. And now, of course they don't know you. Of course it's got an unsubscribe button at the bottom. Of course it does. And it's just like that. Our brains get to a point where we're busy and we're going to process information really quickly and skip the things that don't matter. And you have to remember that when you're crafting messages.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:22:36:
In today's day and age, people have learned very quickly how to filter information because we have too much of it. And so if you don't want to be caught in the filter, you do have to put in this work. And what was the phrase you said earlier? The spray?
Robert Ingalls - 00:22:48:
Spray and pray.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:22:49:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:22:49:
Just like put it everywhere you can.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:22:51:
So rather than that, we're encouraging folks to take time.It does require more time, but you're going to get more of a return if you are more specific and get to the dinosaurs. All right. This was amazing. It was everything I hoped it would be. I feel like I've learned so much from you about pitching and your perspective on it. We have a couple of questions that we're going to ask every guest. And one of them, I really liked this one. It's about the effectiveness of podcasting as a tool. And I know you're somebody who's really in love with this podcast format and you've made a career out of it. I know you're really involved in the podcasting community. So I want to ask how you've seen a podcast episode change either your career or someone's career. How have you seen a podcast episode be the change for someone?
Robert Ingalls - 00:23:36:
I mean, so many. I mean, I'll say, I mean, a podcast episode changed my life. When I was practicing law. I was hanging on by a thread, my mental health. I didn't really understand it. It's one of those things you don't really realize how heavy the load is when you're used to carrying it. And then... I'd just gotten married and my wife... Comes in and says, just very matter-of-factly, just how she says things, just says the facts, I want to have a baby. Okay. We'd just gotten married and we had been like, maybe we will, maybe we won't. It's a future guy's problem right now.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:24:16:
But it changed for her and she let you know.
Robert Ingalls - 00:24:18:
Yeah, which she was right. We are not spring chickens. And I think she realized that right away. But then it became today guy's problem. And that was just that proverbial straw that just broke me. No, I can't do this in this current. I couldn't see how that could be a thing that could happen for me.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:24:40:
In the life you were in right then.
Robert Ingalls - 00:24:42:
I was just.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:24:43:
That must have been jarring. Because the reasons you were thinking no had nothing to do with whether or not you wanted that for your family. And everything to do with the kind of life you had at that moment.
Robert Ingalls - 00:24:51:
Yeah. And I was so stressed, I didn't have... Didn't have any money. Like I had not figured out how to make money with my law firm. After a proper freakout, mostly unbeknownst to her, I think. I sat down and made a list. And at the top of the list was money. Because without that, nothing really, everything that came from that. And a few other things on it. And so I sat down and I read a book about money, or I listened to a book. And That author also had a leadership book. And I was managing a law office with employees who would come in whenever they wanted. And I didn't know how to lead them. And it was a mess. But that book said you should listen to our podcast. This is September 15. I've never listened to a podcast before.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:25:42:
September of 2015. A lot of people hadn't listened to a podcast before.
Robert Ingalls - 00:25:44:
I'd never listened. Like I had a buddy who listened. He was into computer science. And, you know, that's kind of how I saw them. It was like a very techie thing in my mind at the time. And I said, all right, I'll listen to this podcast. So I go in and I listen. And it's really not for me. They're kind of pitching a conference. And I'm already in the app, and I think it was probably suggested to me because I'm in this leadership type of podcast, and it's this show called Awesome Office. And they're not publishing anymore, but the first guest was Tom Bilyeu. Founder of Quest Nutrition. And for me, there is before and after that moment. And I can't overstate this enough. I'm sitting there and I'm just like spiraling. I don't know what to do. And I'm listening to this guy talk and he's talking about an experience very similar to the one that I was having. Of not knowing what he was going to do not feeling good enough and then taking these steps in his life, and he focused on mindset. I'd never really, as far as I can remember, I don't remember the term, really understanding it. And he's talking about the book mindset and how he shifted his mindset and what that means. Now he sees the world different. And he really boiled it down. If you were to take his statement and boil it down, it's you can do anything you want in your life. And we hear that so much. It's trite advice. It means nothing. It's almost like that email jargon that you don't even read.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:27:20:
It reminds me of like the fifth grade poster of like the cat on the mountain. It's like everything is possible.
Robert Ingalls - 00:27:32:
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And you're like, yeah, sure.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:27:35:
Right.
Robert Ingalls - 00:27:36:
But I heard it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:27:37:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:27:37:
I heard it. And when I heard him relate his experience. And I really did. I remember where I was and I thought. I think I can be anything I want.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:27:48:
Oh my gosh, I love this.
Robert Ingalls - 00:27:52:
And I dove face first. Just like I read that book, Mindset, he talked about right away.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:27:56:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:27:57:
And four times since over the years. Just like, I'm reading it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:28:01:
This is the Carol Dweck?
Robert Ingalls - 00:28:01:
Oh, yes. Yes. Like my team is reading it right now.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:28:05:
Wow.
Robert Ingalls - 00:28:05:
And every Monday morning we have a meeting and we discuss a chapter.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:28:08:
Wow.
Robert Ingalls - 00:28:11:
And, the impact, it just set me rolling. And I mean, I came home that day. And, was just like my poor wife because she is very calm. And just very measured and a little suspicious of people.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:28:31:
Sudden bursts of life changing. I listened to this one podcast and now everything is different. The Wizard of Oz and everything was gray. And now I see color.
Robert Ingalls - 00:28:39:
Oh my God.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:28:39:
She's kind of like, it's Tuesday.
Robert Ingalls - 00:28:41:
Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:28:41:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:28:42:
It was like that. It was like I had these blinders on and all of a sudden somebody just like tilted them back. And I went, I've been missing everything. And I came home and I was so excited and I was telling her like all these things. And then every day it was like that. Every day I would listen to another podcast because he had this show called Inside Inside Quest where he interviewed all of these amazing people about this kind of stuff. And then he has this book list, which you can still find. He still has the book list. And I listened to everything on it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:29:10:
Wow.
Robert Ingalls - 00:29:10:
And just, I didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't know. I'd like to say, oh, I knew all this. I didn't know. But I knew I wanted more of whatever this was. And then I got into the idea of like what flow is. I can never say the author's name right, so I won't even try. But I was really experiencing really deeply for one of the first times in my life real flow of just being in a thing that you are so fascinated with and so excited about that life is just.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:29:40:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:29:40:
You could do that thing almost forever. Time doesn't feel like it's passing. And I was so taken by the medium that within 30 days of listening to that episode, I owned $1,000 worth of podcast gear.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:29:52:
Oh, my gosh.
Robert Ingalls - 00:29:53:
And... I had a little Mackie mixer that could support two mics and a Zoom audio recorder audio recorder. And I'm learning all the chords and what a TRS is and what a TRRS is and TS. And if you put that one in there, it won't record right. And it was chaos. But I loved it.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:30:15:
And all of this is coming from really this book that you read that mentioned we have a podcast. You listened. It wasn't for you, but another one was suggested. And then you listened to this one episode. And I mean, I can't thank you enough for telling us this story. I could see how you were getting choked up thinking about that moment. Like it meant so much to you.
Robert Ingalls - 00:30:32:
It meant so much to me, but it's also. It was the moment that set me on the path that lets me sit here.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:30:39:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:30:40:
And sitting here is the coolest thing in the world for me because I mean, what, it's 10:30 in the morning? I would be in court right now.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:30:54:
Wow.
Robert Ingalls - 00:30:54:
And my client would be like, you're working with the state. You don't care about me. And then somebody else would be calling, and they'd be angry. And then this little girl who's a victim, her parents would be sitting there, and they would be staring daggers at me because I'm the bad guy in their movie today. And, you know, just like this chaos of life. And instead, I'm here telling stories on a podcast, and this is my job. I'm here as part of my job. And then I get to leave here, and I get to go home, and I get to record in another hour with these attorneys in different parts of the world that are telling these incredible stories about these cases that they're working on. And I'm building this business, and I have all these employees, and I love going to my desk. I love it. And my desk is amazing. Like I get to nerd out. I've got this big desk. I've got all these things. I've got cameras and lights. I've gotten into lighting. And it's just, it's this amazing little space to sit. And just be the captain of my little ship, and I'm so happy. And I did not know that was possible. Like, I didn't know you could do that. I thought work sucks. Of course it sucks. You go to work. You do the thing. You go to work. It sucks. And then you get the money, and you go do the fun thing. And like, I love this. I would do this for significantly less money. And don't tell my clients that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:32:15:
But because you love it so much.
Robert Ingalls - 00:32:17:
Yes. I love the whole, I love the process. You know, you cut me off whenever you want to because I'm a chatterbox. But like, I have this vision board that I started years ago. And it's got these goals on it. And I used to look at it every single day because these were the goals. This is the thing. Some of it was family. Some of it was personal. Some of it was professional. And... Every day I would look at it and like, that's what I'm driving for. That's what I'm driving for. That's what I'm driving for. And I had some quotes on it. And. I rarely look at it anymore.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:32:49:
Because it sounds like your life is your vision board now.
Robert Ingalls - 00:32:52:
Well, a lot of that stuff is almost a foregone conclusion, but it's also, that's not what drives me really as much anymore. What drives me is I like the process now. I'm at a space where I enjoy the doing, and the doing is that because some of those goals, I don't know if I'll ever achieve them or not, but I finally reached.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:33:14:
It's about the outcomes for you because you're enjoying the process so much now.
Robert Ingalls - 00:33:17:
And I've heard people say you've got to enjoy the process, and I don't think that you can just decide to do that.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:33:24:
It's more that you have to make these changes, believe something else is possible. And then you have this process that you enjoy because you've designed with intentionality this life that you like.
Robert Ingalls - 00:33:33:
Yeah, you find this process that you enjoy doing. And then you go, oh, this, because it's the journey, you know, the journey, not the destination.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:33:38:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:33:39:
And if you don't enjoy the journey, getting to the destination is going to be brutal.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:33:43:
And then once you get to that destination, it's hard to enjoy it because you're not in a good spot.
Robert Ingalls - 00:33:47:
Well, and that's the problem too, though, is the destinations are frequently underwhelming.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:33:52:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:33:52:
Because they're super exciting when you decide on them.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:33:55:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:33:55:
And then you spend years working towards them and you change who you are as a person and you do all these things. And that destination becomes, you've done so many things that that destination is like. I remember my first check that I wrote myself and put on the board. It's an insultingly low amount of money now. Because I didn't understand how little money that actually is in the scheme of trying to have financial security. But I needed it at the time. And so that goal is... Not really a goal anymore. And even getting to it, you're like, oh, it's great to be here. It's good. I mean, very fortunate. I have a lot of gratitude for that, but we have places to go.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:34:34:
We're still moving.
Robert Ingalls - 00:34:35:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:34:36:
Yeah. And we can still be moving because we're embracing this process and not that. This is so beautiful. And I want to stop for a second and imagine what you just shared in the context of one of the first nuggets that you gave us was this idea that as somebody who cares so much about sales and marketing, you genuinely feel like the message that you have to share is worth sharing and could help someone. And thank goodness someone else felt that way when they started a podcast and shared the inside story about Quest Nutrition, right? And then you heard that. I mean, we have you as a living example of a podcast message that you have to share could change somebody's life. It happened for you. You listened to someone's podcast message and it changed your life. What if that message hadn't existed? And for some of our folks who are thinking about being a podcast guest. I mean, what if you don't do it and somebody misses out on this chance to get your message? There are big, cool things at stake here. And so having some intentionality as you think about what that message is, the benefit it could give listeners, how you're going to pitch it for folks so that they hear it and want it for their listeners, it all wraps together. And the story you shared is a beautiful example of when that works out and when we bring that care for how we can impact others to our work. As we saw with your story, it can have really, really, really big ripple effects.
Robert Ingalls - 00:35:51:
Yeah. And nobody has your story.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:35:52:
Yeah.
Robert Ingalls - 00:35:53:
You know, people frequently, I think, get, you know, you hear it called imposter syndrome and things like that. Other people are doing this. Who am I? Nobody has your story. And every day you're writing it. So just, you know, I think we were talking this earlier. You just have to keep moving forward. You have to do the next right thing.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:36:08:
Do the next. There's that one. I knew we would come back to it. All right, so if folks want to chat with you about Frozen 2 fandom... Law podcasts or all other things, how do you want folks to get in touch with you? What's the best way to reach out?
Robert Ingalls - 00:36:21:
LinkedIn's a great place. If you had told me 10 years ago I'd spend most of my social media time on LinkedIn, I'd have thought you were crazy. But LinkedIn is a good place. Please connect with me there. I like that. But you can also always email me, robert@lawpods.com. And then really you type Lawpods anywhere and you're going to find us.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:36:39:
Love it.
Robert Ingalls - 00:36:39:
That was very intentional.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:36:41:
I'm sure that that was not accidental. There was some work to getting to that. Well, Robert, I want to thank you so much for joining us. This was such a delight. Your love for podcasts is so clear, but you also gave us some actionable tips. I think anyone, even folks who have never done a podcast before, could listen to this episode and get some ideas for how they can start putting themselves out there.
Robert Ingalls - 00:37:03:
I hope so. I mean, that's always my goal is like, I mean, I started this the same way I told you they should start theirs. How can I deliver value? And I hope that it also recognize that I'm not here to pitch myself. I'm not here to tell you all of the things that I can do for you. That's not the point. The point is to give as much value if you never hear from me again. And that's what I want people to take away is that is your role as a podcast guest. That's to deliver value first. The rest of it will come.
Dr. Sarah Glova - 00:37:28:
That's awesome. And I think we'll probably hear from you again. You're pretty great. All right. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. And we want to thank you for listening and watching this podcast. If this content was helpful to you, we have a couple of ways that you can follow us. You can follow us on any podcast app, obviously, and on YouTube plus social media. So you can find us at Podcast Ally. And if you're looking to be a guest on more podcasts to grow your brands, like we talked about doing today, then go to podcastally.com for more information, tips, and other episodes. I'm Dr. Sarah Glova. I'd love for you to follow me on LinkedIn as well. So please look me up or you can visit sarahglova.com. And we'll see you again soon on the Podcast Ally podcast.