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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
What up Jessica?
What's up?
Ready to talk apologies.
And specifically force.
Apologies.
Are you ready to say sorry to me?
Absolutely not.
It can't be forced.
It's impossible.
Fascinating
We'll get into that.
We'll we'll get there.
So for this episode I did do a bunch of research, but unlike the episode before
I feel like you know a lot more about this one, so I'm just gonna take our traditional approach to this episode.
Okay.
But you can't surprise me.
Well It's gonna be less likely that I surprise you.
Maybe.
I think honestly what I was seeking for this episode is just a healthy discussion on it.
Okay.
I just want to open up a conversation that I think is important for parents and pretty much anyone to just consider.
Because I was talking to this person this morning.
This is a teacher, teaches
JK S K.
And this person was saying that when they have an issue in the class, let's say one peer hits another peer in the face, then she'll sit down with them, they'll have a circle time, and she'll say to the person who did the hurting, How can you make this right?
And typically the person who did the hurting will be like I can say I'm sorry.
So then they'll say to the person who was hurt I'm sorry.
And what
maybe she would traditionally do is like, okay, you know, now what do you say?
Right?
And then the other kid goes, I forgive you, and off they go.
But she said that she's been noticing this feeling inside of herself that she's not loving that approach because
She's feeling like what do I really want to teach these kids by forcing them to maybe a apologize but mostly accept the apology and just feel like I can just move forward now?
Right
So it's almost less about forcing the apology, which we can talk about, but more about forcing forgiveness.
Do you think that's the bigger struggle that parents have though of the two?
I think
we need to kind of talk about both.
Yeah, sure.
Because what I notice I notice both in the parents.
So I think
Forcing an apology, like what does that really do?
Right?
Like if someone doesn't actually feel sorry, but they're saying the word sorry, not just for kids, but for anyone.
It's just kind of a meaningless word, right?
But also forcing forgiveness, I think, can have an unhealthy impact on kids too.
If you're saying
Your brother said sorry, okay, tell him you forgive him, but the child's not ready to forgive.
You know, what are we teaching in terms of overriding that feeling of, man, someone's did something wrong to me, and I just have to be nice to them or just have to forgive them
And this is where the teacher was really struggling because the the traditional say sorry, say I forgive you model just feels like it's lacking something for her.
And that's the bigger conversation we wanted to have.
Is there actually a fundamental problem with, I guess, forced apologies and forced forgiveness?
Does it depend on age?
Does it depend on the developmental stage they're at?
Like is there actually a fundamental issue with forcing both an apology and forgiveness?
Before I answer, what do you think?
Well, I'm the one who did the research on it.
Right, okay So let me tell you what I think
I mean, I think our children want to be in good relationship with others.
I think children if you look at just who they are as people before we kinda come in and start shaping them with, you know, do this, do that.
I think they're genuinely caring and they genuinely want to be good people.
Right?
I think kids have impulses that get the best of them.
Where I see forcing apologies being an issue sometimes
is when we're now labeling, let's say, an impulsive behavior that a child does, like her toddler, you know, I can just picture her being overtired, being
A little bit grumpy, and all of a sudden she hits her sister because her sister has her toy.
And we come in and she's already melting down and having a hard time.
We're like, that was wrong.
That was bad.
You have to say sorry.
And her brain's just not there
Like her brain just literally it's not accessing the words that we're saying, just from the developmental perspective.
And I think a lot of parents then will be like, you have to say story, and they'll like really dig into that.
And then the child who's done the hurting, now A, they've just hurt someone, which they don't actually want to do.
B, their brain is totally flooded with emotion and it can't think logically
And now I'm being yelled at to say sorry and I freeze up, I won't do it, and then often now they get punished, right?
So I feel like
sometimes our expectation is too much and then also for our little kids like what's a story really mean to them?
I have seen it a million times where
parents even at the park, right?
Say sorry, say sorry.
And the kid goes, yep, sorry.
And it's like as if now everything's resolved and better because I've said a single word.
It's a magic word.
It's a magic word.
And I mean how many adults do the same thing?
Oh sorry, sorry, sorry.
Like, but they don't actually mean what they're saying.
So to me, what I'd rather teach my kids is like the truest apology is changed behavior.
Right, and not hurting this person next time.
And yes, I do think the word sorry has meaning and value, and we can kind of talk about how to go about getting coaching your child to
see the need to apologize, but also I think if all we ever do is just demand that that word be said, then the apology kind of falls flat.
And then I think
the exact same thing on the other side, right?
So if we demand our kids to forgive every single time someone's hurt them, it's the same thing.
So like what does forgiveness really mean then?
Right.
And what is the child doing with those feelings that come up with I've just been really hurt by someone who I love and care about or by someone I don't know at the park and I'm just supposed to be fine and just move on, you know, overriding their own feeling of
that didn't feel right.
So you can teach a child that it's okay if other people run over you as long as they say sorry.
Right, exactly.
And how many of us adults struggle with that?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And we allow people to walk over us and then just say sorry and then we feel guilty when we're not ready to forgive them yet.
Right
Do you think there is a place for telling your child, like a toddler, a child, okay, this is something that you should apologize for because it hurt your sister or
You made them really sad because you stole a toy from them that they were just playing with.
Like is it wrong to do that?
No.
I think what you just said, the second thing that you said.
is better.
Like basically narrating out what happened.
Right.
So what I don't love is when a parent's just like from the other side of the room, say sorry to your brother, you know.
Like, okay, sorry, and then we move on, right?
But if you're really coming in, like I like to get on the kids' level and be like, Do you notice how your sister is crying right now?
You just hit her with your toy and now she's crying.
You know, hitting someone with a toy really hurts her.
You know, one thing you could do right now is say sorry.
Like you didn't want to hurt your sister and you're gonna try not to do that again.
It's a little more coaching that's involved in it.
Yeah, okay.
And I do think it's important to teach children how to make amends with each other.
Right?
pro-social behavior.
You're still teaching them how to relate well with others by even if they don't necessarily understand it at those early ages.
And you're kind of forcing it on them a little bit or prompting them to, hey
This is a good opportunity for you to say sorry.
Yeah, I feel like one could argue that there's a benefit in explaining that to them and trying to get them to apologize.
I do agree.
I think that's where we're coaching our kids on how to behave socially, right?
And it should come with the explanation as to why that's a behavior that you would seek an apology for.
Right?
Like why did that hurt someone?
Or why should I even feel sorry about this?
Right?
Yeah.
You can almost see it on the flip side of like adults who apologize for everything.
Like you wonder if as a kid they're just constantly like
Say sorry, say like told to say sorry all the time without actually reflecting on like, well, why was that even wrong?
You know?
And so then they just think their whole existence is basically wrong and anything they do is wrong without like reflecting on like, is this actually something I have to say sorry for?
Yeah.
I mean this is a lot of Canadian Canadians are always like saying sorry about everything.
But, you know, on a deeper level, we all know these people that are just apologized constantly.
Right?
And then on the flip side, you have people who seem to show no remorse and never apologize for anything, or people who think they can just do bad things.
And then just say sorry for them.
So what we really want to do is coach on like, why was this wrong?
How did this behavior impact someone else?
Okay, and then when we do something that hurts someone else
The kind thing that we want to say is sorry.
And sorry is more than just a word.
It's next time, we're not going to try and hit her.
Like maybe you'll try and talk it out, right?
So it's the coaching.
Okay.
Now I have the voice of a relative of mine who will say sometimes like you just need your child to do something in the moment and
Just get it done?
Or they need to know that what they did was wrong and you have to tell them that and then in this situation force an apology.
Why is that not the right approach?
Especially for younger kids.
I mean it just to me it's just kind of meaningless.
Force them to sit a why.
Again, you saying it's meaningless.
is also meaningless.
I have to un we have to understand why it's meaningless then.
Like if they're just saying a word, sorry, and they don't actually know what that means.
And they're just basically saying it to get their parent off their case, right?
Not because they actually feel bad, not because they understand the impact of their actions, but just so that my mom stops
telling me that I have to say sorry right now.
They are more so doing it because they don't want their parent on their case and they just want to keep their parent happy than actually feeling sorry.
and understanding what the word means.
And to me, what's more meaningful is teaching a child actually what the word sorry means and understanding that most kids do want to be in a good relationship with other people and given the opportunity, they do want to make it right.
Yeah.
So to me it's more about how can we make this right versus how do I just get you to say a magical word and then we all move on with our day and then an hour later you do the exact same thing because you don't really know why I forced you to say sorry
Okay.
How what does that look like in real family life though?
Like if you had to if we had to stop every time our three year old stole a toy from one of her older siblings or hit one of them or whatever.
Like that's the age she's at.
So you're saying teach them what the word story means.
I'm assuming you mean teach them to feel empathy.
Yeah.
How do you actually do that?
Is that way too early of an age to even be teaching them that realistically?
Or what yeah, what does that actually look like when you're so busy you have to make
dinner you have to get the kids ready for other things.
Yeah, I think it it can look two ways.
So first I do think you can teach a three year old empathy.
Actually I don't think it's like
crazy thing you have to teach.
I think they already have it.
It's just helping facilitate that.
But for example, when she takes a toy from her sister, right?
And I know her sister had the toy first.
So a way I can just teach pro social behavior in that moment is give the toy back to me
her sister, first off, right?
And then second, even if she's melting down, I can just quickly say, like, hey, look, you know, our rule is whoever had the toy first, they get the toy right now.
Look at your sister's face when you steal a toy from her.
Look how she's crying and she's upset.
That's what happens when we take a toy from someone.
But the reality is that three-year-old will also be crying because you just gave the toy back.
Yeah.
So then you're teaching her literally when she's not teachable.
then right?
Yeah.
So is that realistic uh and a real a realistic example then what you're saying?
Well like I would still say it even if she's not fully teachable just gets me in the practice of saying that.
But I wouldn't like go into like a long explanation.
And
At that point in time, I wouldn't force her to be like I'm sorry, right?
Like so for a three-year-old in that example, basically it's my boundary
and my ability to stand up for her sister and show empathy, basically what it's like what we've talked about before, what I want her to do
Right?
Give the toy back and show empathy for her sister.
That's the apology.
Like I'm acting as the logical brain in that moment.
As she gets older, or even when she's calm.
You can have more of these conversations, but like when you take a toy, it makes your sister sad.
You remember how she was crying earlier?
That's because we took her toy.
That's why we don't take toys, right?
You can do that in a calm moment
But yeah, like you said, not everything has to be said and done in that exact moment when your child's melting down.
Especially for the younger kids, you're the model.
So they're looking at you to figure out how to be empathetic and how to have pro-social behavior.
Yeah
Well and based on the research and we've talked about this in previous episodes too, the ability to genuinely understand another person's perspectives and feelings, you start seeing it until a child is four to five.
That's why I keep pressing you on, is it realistic to do that at age three?
Like you can tell them, but really at age three, a child is egocentric.
They only care about themselves.
They are mimicking what we're doing, but they're not really internalizing it, I would I don't think at least.
I think they could start to notice the patterns of your behavior.
They start to like see how you treat
others, right?
So like it's that modeling and you can start the coaching.
That doesn't mean it's sinking in, right?
But I still like to start doing it around that age.
And then once they reach the four to five age, you do start to see those shifts.
Right.
We're now
all that work that you've been doing, they're starting to act like you and take it on and be empathetic and understand when to apologize.
But it's that foundation that you're c you're starting to build and just practice in the three-year-old stage.
Right
I mean, yeah, again, I think there's there is definitely a benefit for them help understanding like a social norm that, hey, when I've done something wrong, we have to stop
and reflect on it and act on it in a certain way.
Yeah, and uh to be honest, like yes, our three-year-old hasn't hit that like four to seven, like kind of that shift yet, but she will say sorry now
Right?
Like she said sorry to me the other night because she broke her drawer, which was a whole thing.
But she ripped like the top of her drawer off and she came all the way downstairs, found me in the kitchen, tugged on my dress.
Mummy, I so sorry.
I so sorry I broke a drawer.
I was like, what do you mean you broke the door?
I step on it.
Like she knows she's not supposed to do that.
But she got me and she apologized and she genuinely felt bad for what she did.
And that's at three, right?
So I do think modeling it and coaching them through it at an early age can have a positive impact.
It's not to just like say, let's just wait till they're four.
Yeah, right.
And that's not what I'm saying.
Yeah.
I'm just asking if it's realistic for a parent to a two to three year old, like a
a toddler to guide them through that process and try and get them to go through the process of okay what can we do?
Is it more
Like I have to guide them.
I have to say, okay, let's try this, this or this.
Yeah, because they're not gonna have the answer at two years old to be like, I should give the toy back to me.
Like that's not gonna happen.
Whereas at five, they can probably come up with that answer themselves
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There was another thing I found in the research that so forced apologies.
So saying like you need to say sorry right now, it's universally seen as mostly negative.
It's not seen as a positive thing to do it that way.
But what is
positive is to coach them through and say, You see how your sister is crying right now?
How do you think it feels for them to have their tower destroyed?
Mm-hmm.
Do you think we can show that we're sorry by build helping her build a new tower or whatever like
It's more coaching.
Again, that's easier to do for the older, let's say, preschool, school age children.
Before that, that's where
You can't coerce them into saying sorry, but you can kind of guide them into understanding that this is a part of actually being sorry's saying
the words I'm sorry.
Yeah, the prompt can be a bit more direct, I think, with the younger kids, right?
Whereas older kids and what I wanted to mention too is like the older they get, there might be different ways they say I'm sorry without
saying the exact words I'm sorry, right?
Like I remords I'm sorry though, if used meaningfully
and paired with an action of some kind to show that you're sorry are still quite powerful.
Yes, absolutely.
Like I'm not saying that the words I'm sorry are not powerful.
I think
sometimes they're the most powerful thing that we can hear, right?
People really value hearing the words I'm sorry, even our kids, when we apologize to them.
But I remember a time I'm just thinking of a time with our five-year-old recently and she
did something she wasn't supposed to do to like one of her sisters, I can't remember, and I said to her, like, hey, do you want to say sorry?
And she said, she wasn't ready.
to say sorry and I'm like, okay, I know when you're ready, you'll come and say sorry.
And I usually try not to force it, but I let them know that I expect that when they're ready, they'll come say sorry.
And when she was ready, she didn't say the words, I'm sorry, but she had drawn a picture with a big heart on it, and she gave it to her sister.
Right.
And her sister understood, like her older sister understood that that meant she felt bad about what she did.
Right.
And they gave a hug and it was fine.
So that's what I'm saying is sometimes the exact words might not be said for your kids, but understand the cues, right?
Or like they just hand back the toy or they give
their sibling, their favorite stuffy to snuggle.
Like there's there's many ways that we see I'm sorry playing out that sometimes we miss as parents.
Yeah.
I think that makes sense.
So the two things that I've found in the research that seem to have the biggest impact on actually generating that feeling, true feeling of empathy.
are number one is actually action-oriented empathy.
So like when someone's sorry, if you've broken your siblings tower.
you can help them rebuild it.
And the act of actually rebuilding it helps them to feel that sense of empathy.
Like, oh, I can see why
My sibling is so upset about this because they spent all this time building it.
And now I'm seeing that and I'm helping them build it.
I love that.
Yeah.
So that's one of the biggest impacts.
And the other one is seeing their parents model
that, whether it's to each other as parents or from the parent to the child.
I think that's beautiful and I think a lot of parents struggle with this because they never heard the words I'm sorry.
when they were kids, right?
Like I think an old school mindset is like you don't apologize to your kids, you're the parent, you know, they have to disrespect whatever you say.
And so then parents either
struggle to know like how to model that to their kids or they over apologize to their kids or like that can be a hard thing to know how to model.
To your kids.
So what is a an example of that?
That like a true apology from, let's say, me to one of our daughters?
Right.
So let's say we were trying to get out the door to go to school and
You got super frustrated with all of them because they just are taking a million years to get their shoes on and you kinda yell a little bit and tell them to all get in the van, right?
You drive in the van, okay, you've all cooled down.
And now you start and feel guilty because you're like, oh man, I probably shouldn't have yelled at them
And you're like, hey girls, just before you go to school, I just wanted to say, I'm really sorry for this morning.
I was feeling rushed.
I was late to work.
And because of all of those things, I ended up yelling at you guys.
That was my own stuff
And next time, maybe we'll try and get ready a little bit earlier or I'll try and have things set up a little bit better.
But I am sorry for yelling at you.
I shouldn't have yelled at you this morning.
Just once
Right.
And I think if you say it genuinely just once, you have their attention, you have their connection, that's enough.
And then the next time you try and do it different.
Right.
And that's where I was saying at the very beginning, the changed behavior is like the truest apology.
Which we can do because we have logical brains and we try our best
our toddlers can't necessarily not hit their sister next time, right?
But eventually they also learn that when they say sorry to really mean it, you also have to change what you're doing.
And I think this is where I was saying sometimes parents
Struggle where the their own guilt will make them feel so bad that they just apologize over.
Like I could be like this, right?
Like
I apologize in the van and then I apologize after school.
I was feeling so bad all day for yelling at you, and then I apologize again at night.
Yes.
It's actually something I hear about a lot that the parents who follow us, they can feel so much guilt sometimes.
And then the guilt
feels crippling because of whatever they did that they just keep apologizing over and over and over.
But what that actually does is it one time it's healing.
Two times okay.
But if your child is constantly hearing you apologize, then they're starting to feel a little bit unsure too, right?
Yeah, right.
I guess they can't trust that you are
A good leader for them if you constantly feel like you have to apologize for the same thing over and over and over and over, right?
Consistently.
Yeah, I I had a a follower ask me very recently, like, how many times is too many times to apologize for the yelling I did a couple nights ago.
And I said, if you did it once and it was very genuine and you're working on changing your behavior, once is enough.
So do you think a part of the apology though then should be
I'm sorry that I did this.
I realized that it might have scared you or something like that.
The next time I'm feeling this way.
I'm going to try and do this.
I think as an adult, that's the most ideal way to apologize.
Yeah, because I feel like if you just try and
change without saying this is how I want to change and this is how I plan to do it next time.
I feel like your kids will not know what to expect.
Exactly.
Right?
Like what are you gonna do next time?
I don't know.
Right?
But then then let's say you do say tomorrow morning when we're getting ready for school, I'm gonna do this.
You know, I'm gonna wake up a little early, make your lunches so that we're not trying to do it all at the same time as getting you out the door
And then the next morning you do that.
And it shows your kids that you're serious, right?
And it models to them that when they are serious about apologizing or doing something different, you actually have to make steps to make that change.
Yep.
I think it's a missed piece, right?
Because
Even with a lot of parents, like just saying sorry, people hear sorry all the time, right?
But I think it can quickly lose its meaning if it's not paired with a change behavior.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean you see that with adults too, right?
If someone says sorry but then does the exact same thing over and over again without actually making any meaningful change to try and s not do that anymore, it's hard to believe that it's true.
And kids
Kids will see that.
Kids are smart.
And I feel like you've almost my trust has almost gone even more.
Like if you say you're sorry and you say you're not gonna do this anymore, but you keep doing it
Okay, well that is another breach of trust, right?
So yeah, it has to be more than just a word.
And I think, yeah, that really comes from our modeling.
Yes, modeling.
And then like I said again, the action-oriented
Basically what your teacher friend said about the restorative circle, it's more than just a child saying, I'm sorry in that situation, I forgive you, whatever.
It's about, okay, what can you do
to rectify the situation?
How can we make this better now?
What do you think are some ideas for a way that we can rebuild trust and
Move past this.
Yeah, I do that and I know you do that with our girls too.
I remember one time one of them broke one of their drawing like a drawing or a puppet or something.
And then the resolution was like, I'll try and help you make another one, right?
And it's simple, but like you said, then they go through the process of
making the thing that they broke or cleaning up the mess that they made in the other person's room or whatever it is.
And it does help them feel the weight of what they did, right?
Which also makes you less likely to want to do that again in the future.
So that makes a lot of sense to me
Okay, so going back to that age group, four to five.
So we were talking about junior kindergarten, senior kindergarten here in Ontario, Canada is four to five years old.
The concept of that restorative circle
is truly based on what is effective.
Again, how can we make sure that I don't know what the right term is, the transgressor, the one that actually did whatever that hurt the other child, whether it's their feelings or physically
How can we actually help them develop more empathy?
And on the other side, on the reverse side, how can we make sure that the other child
feels like they don't have to just accept an apology just because someone said they're sorry.
And for them to, I don't know, be strong enough to say thank you for that apology or That's what my teacher friend and I were talking about this morning, actually
She said that she started to coach the kids who needed to forgive.
Like and typically she'd be like, Okay, now say I forgive you, you know, something like that.
That's what she would do.
Yeah, she used to do.
And then she started feeling really uncomfortable with that because
She was looking at her own life and she's like, if my friend hit me or hurt me or whatever it is, right?
And they said sorry.
I wouldn't necessarily be ready to forgive them right away.
Yeah.
And why am I forcing the kids in my class to just immediately be like, I forgive you and move on?
And she's like a lot of them
actually feel really betrayed by the way that their friend treated them, right?
And she's like, and I want to teach them actually to tune in with that feeling and to know that that wasn't okay and that when they're ready to forgive their friend, that's fine
but they don't have to do it five minutes after they just got hit in the face.
And I said to her, I'm like, that makes a lot of sense and I think we don't f talk about that enough, right?
We kinda end the conversation with saying sorry, we don't talk about the forgiveness piece.
And so she said what she started to do is just
coaching them to say like I hear your apology or thank you for the apology instead of I forgive you.
And she's like it's a simple shift, but I've actually noticed the kids in my class being a little bit more calm after these circles because they didn't have to like
force themselves to just get over the thing that just happened.
I think in our home we've been really good about that.
I don't think we ever force our kids to forgive.
Like we kind of do the apology
If the other person wants to repair, they can.
But we also let them stay angry.
Like if they want to be angry for a bit, I think that's okay.
I know, especially our older daughter sometimes has been angry for like an hour or two after with her siblings, right?
She just doesn't want to play with them.
She wants to do her own thing.
And like I don't actually have a problem with that.
I'm okay with her tuning in with this feeling of injustice or betrayal and being like, I want to sit with that for a little while.
So I like the idea of thank you for your apology.
And I like the idea of teaching
kids some time to pause and reflect on how they're actually feeling, especially as we get into those older ages.
But I was curious, like I just wanted to have that discussion with you, because I feel like that's not something we've ever intentionally spoken about before
And I think forgiveness is such a huge topic and something that we oversimplify a lot, but I mean we could have a whole episode on forgiveness as an adult and the hurts that you
Yeah, but like it's not so simple as to just say I forgive you, right?
And I want our kids to like tune in with those feelings when someone has hurt them or betrayed them and realize that they don't have to just get over it.
Do you not think there's a bit of a middle ground on that though?
Whether it's forgiving or I mean if we're going into the more complex like adulthood and being hurt as an adult.
It's very different.
But even let's talk about like your eight year old with like a friendship struggle.
Yeah.
Right.
Like if a friend is mean to her or says something bad to her and then the next day they're like, I'm sorry, but she's still hurt by the words that were s said two days ago.
I want her to have some sort of framework to know that, okay, I can pause and like, I can take her apology, but I don't have to tell her immediately, I forgive you, and just start playing with her again.
Right, like even at those early ages, I do want her to have some room to pause.
But I see what you're saying in terms of like our toddler and our preschooler fighting over a toy.
Like we don't need them mad at each other for an hour over an impulse control issue.
Yeah.
But I also don't think they would be.
Like they are also prone to just move forward, right?
And I feel like children do think more concretely.
They're not thinking of all the complexities.
Like we said, it's not really until ages four to five where they're starting to understand that others think differently from them and have different perspectives
So you I mean you can't really teach that until their brain has unlocked the ability to start thinking about that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I don't know.
It I guess it depends on how you would define someone forgives another.
Right?
Like if forgiveness is just getting over it and acting like nothing happened, yeah, okay, sure.
Then you don't necessarily want that outcome right away.
But if you think forgiveness is more
Understanding again using the whole theory of mind where someone else has a different perspective.
They did something, they realize they're wrong
I can appreciate that they understand that I'm going to make sure that I keep my guards up a little bit just because they've done something wrong and they've said they're gonna change.
So we'll see.
That doesn't mean all of a sudden you write them off fully, but it could potentially, based on how extreme it was, I guess.
Yeah, and so that's more of like an adult definition, I guess, of forgiveness, right?
Where it's like
Yeah, we're teaching the beginning stages of that in the let's say this restorative circle idea in kindergarten.
Yeah, and I feel like let's say what does forgiveness look like in kindergarten?
It probably looks like
I'm willing to play with you again and I want to hang out with you and I don't think you're a bad kid, right?
Yeah, right.
It could mean I still don't really want to play with you, but I'm not gonna lash out at you and get super angry at you all the time.
I feel like even our JK Well be mean too.
Yeah, even our JK has like certain th people maybe she doesn't want to hang out with so much because they hurt her at some point or another and like she's not forgetting it, but she's fine with them.
It's just she just knows.
Like
Maybe I don't play with them as much.
Yeah.
So I think that can be what forgiveness looks like then.
But then I do think it gets a little more complicated when you get into those like
pre-teen tween years, like the nine to thirteen or whatever, where our daughter's entering into where maybe forgiveness has meant, oh, I'll still play with you and like we can just move on because our brains kind of just oop move on to the next thing.
Maybe
that looks a little different where she can start to understand, wow, this person comes from a different house than me and they have different rules and or ways of talking to each other.
And I can understand and appreciate that and I don't want to keep hanging out with her 'cause she's mean.
Like I think they can start to get that complex feeling around that age.
And then for us, it's yeah, it's even more complicated.
It's all the things that you just said, right?
I can forgive you and maybe not have you back in my life.
Like
Like you can get as complex as that with forgiveness.
But those aren't discussions that I think a lot of people are having, right?
I think for a lot of people, forgiveness just means moving on, moving forward, forgetting
But I don't think forgiveness has to mean forgetting.
Um and I think that's where my teacher friend was trying to come from, right?
Like I don't want to coach my kids just to say, I forgive you.
equaling I'm gonna go play with you again when they're not ready to do that.
And I wonder too about coaching kids with like the feeling inside their own body of like what did it feel like when you got hit by your friend?
You know, that's the kind of thing I would do as a mom
And I think that that would be important too.
Okay.
Well, I think this was a good discussion.
Is there anything else that you wanted to add to this that you think will tie it all together nice in a nice bundle?
No, I think this is a really good place to end.
I think what parents can take away from this is instead of just kind of doing the route like force an apology, force a forgiveness, let's move on.
maybe it will help parents just take a little bit of a pause and more of a coaching aspect to these struggles, knowing that the foundations that we're setting in
let's say those preschool, early school age will help them with their relationships, but also with their sense of confidence and like trust in themselves as they get older.
And
We sometimes forget like these little moments, right?
They happen million times a day where your kids are fighting over something and someone hurts someone else
we forget that they can be really powerful t teachable opportunities.
Yeah, for sure.
I do have a final question for the listener.
I love that you're doing that, yeah.
I figured you would like that.
I do.
It's beautiful.
Started it last episode.
We'll see if I continue.
I don't know.
I like it.
Okay, so this is for you the listener.
As you go about your week, the next time a conflict arises between your children
your children or your child and someone else.
Uh I just want to invite you to pause and ask yourself, is my goal right now to get my child just to apologize, or is it to guide a genuine repair and build that empathy within them?
What a good question.
Thanks.
I love it.
I'm gonna sit with that question.
Because I mean, let's be honest, we do that too sometimes, you know.
So sorry, come on.
We just want to rush through it, move on.
But I'm gonna sit with that question too.
Yeah.
I like it.
I'm glad.
Well, thank you everyone for listening.
Hopefully you can take something away from this episode and reflect on the question that Scott just said.
And can't wait to get your thoughts and feedback and we'll hear from you again next week.
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