Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Sabbath Life Podcast is about sharing stories from the Abbey of the Heights retreat house in Tulsa—all about finding rhythms of life that make us more human, learning the Christian contemplative tradition, and becoming friends with time.
Peter White (00:01.53)
Welcome to the Sabbath Life podcast. Here is a place where we share stories about finding rhythms of life that make us more human, learning about the Christian contemplative tradition and how we become friends with time. I'm Peter White and I'm one of the hosts of the Abbey of the Heights here in Tulsa, a retreat space here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And today I am joined with Melissa Hendrickson and Chris Westhoff.
And together the three of us facilitate the School of Spiritual Direction at the Sabbath Life. So we wanted to take some time just to share some of our own stories about spiritual direction and the training program that we host. And so what if we start with just some introductions, if you all would just share a little bit of who you are and the work that you do, and maybe if you could remember how spiritual direction first came onto your radar screen.
Chris, do you want to kick us off with that?
Christine Westhoff (04:23.724)
That's a complicated question actually, but the who you are part is more complicated than the other part. My name is Chris Westhoff, like you said, living here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My husband and I have been around in various ministry worlds for, I don't know, 35, 40 years maybe. And in that process along the way, I come from a Catholic background, although I haven't stayed with the Catholic Church. But my mother had a spiritual director for as long as I can remember. So it's always been on my radar. It's always been something that I had heard of that I was somewhat familiar with. And then somewhere along the way as I was dabbling in a lot of more inner healing type work to help people and just the care of their souls, I found myself in pastoral work and mental and emotional health work for various reasons and in lots of different contexts. And so I think it was the probably around 2007 or eight, I jumped into a training that I thought was spiritual direction and quickly found out that it wasn't. So starting back then, I wanted to be trained and I wanted to grow in this craft in this art form. And so finally, a few years back when you opened up the school Peter on the very first group, I jumped in as fast as I possibly could. So it's a life changer for sure.
Peter White (06:01.692)
That's awesome, awesome. So what is the work that you do now, Chris?
Christine Westhoff (06:07.084)
My husband and I lead a couple of different ministries. The primary one is called MESH. It's mental, emotional, and spiritual health is what MESH stands for. It's the MESH objective. So we do a lot of work with pastors and missionaries and leaders around the world, caring for their souls so they can keep doing what they're doing. And some of them are working in some pretty tough contexts, like the underground church in the Middle East and a lot of gang and drug-related violence in South Africa and then some very normal pastors and leaders in churches here across the US as well.
Peter White (06:45.296)
Fantastic. Thanks. Thanks for that, Chris. Melissa, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're up to.
Melissa (06:52.567)
Yeah, I'm Melissa Hendrickson. I'm also here in the Tulsa area. I was involved in local church ministry for about three decades, worked as a children's pastor for about 15 years. And just in probably 10 years ago, started hearing the language of spiritual direction pop up in places, podcasts and books that I was listening to and reading and was curious about it, but didn't really know where to go or how to get started or how I would even know how to trust someone. And then in 2022, I was at a conference and was having a conversation with a friend of mine and we were talking about graduate school and seminary and she asked if I'd ever considered being a spiritual director. And it got the wheels spinning and just a few weeks later, I actually received the email from the Sabbath Life announcing the first cohort. And that was kind of how it all came together for me.
Peter White (08:02.684)
Awesome, awesome. What would you say are some gifts and graces that you've received from Spiritual Direction?
Melissa (08:12.975)
Gosh, it feels like that list could go on and on. I think for me, sitting with a spiritual director, one of the greatest gifts has been the gift of presence, having space to just be able to be curious and wonder and ask questions and wrestle with ideas in a place that feels completely safe and completely comfortable. It's never hurried, never rushed. As the spiritual director giving spiritual direction, I think it's been such a gift to really just be able to carry other people's stories, to have the privilege of sitting and listening to others as they wrestle and explore and get curious about how God's in their story. It just, feels like such a gift to me.
Peter White (09:11.366)
Mm-hmm. Chris, how about you? I heard you use earlier the language of art and of craft related to spiritual direction. Can you say some more about that?
Christine Westhoff (09:25.546)
does feel I can't remember who said it. just read a quote last week and I should have looked it up before we hopped on here. But it calls the care of the human soul, the art of all arts. And I love it. And I want to frame it on my office wall. Because it does feel like this, like we somehow get to partake in the creative work of God and how he loves each an individual Person and how he's engaging with them. We get to be a witness to their life a witness to his his creation over and over again as he engages with the person in front of us and it does it feels artistic through and through to me and the craft language, I, on the receiving level of spiritual direction, I'm really thankful for those who have learn and continue to learn the craft because it is it is a craft like anything else that you're going to learn whether you are an artist or like if you if we stay in the art category as a painter you have a natural gift and grace as a painter most often but then you learn the craft if you're a singer it's the same way if you're a scientist anything that we do there might be a natural gift and grace but there's also a learning of a craft that is incredibly valuable and very important or else we won't grow.
Peter White (11:08.462)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think that's so beautiful.
Peter White (11:15.48)
When you think about the program that we have in training spiritual directors, what's kind of the sales pitch that you give to people about what you do with it?
Christine Westhoff (11:30.892)
That's on you, Melissa.
Melissa (11:32.654)
Cool.
The sales pitch. Well, I think the thing that I often when I'm asked what do I do as a spiritual director, like what is my role? I really just usually am telling people that I get to come alongside and listen with them. I'm creating holy space to listen. And that's not something that is necessarily comfortable or familiar to have the slow space to sit and listen to another as they tell their story. So I think that's usually the thing I talk about creating space to really listen.
Peter White (12:19.173)
Mmm creating space to listen. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, Chris. What would you tell people?
Christine Westhoff (12:28.684)
Well, when you first asked the question, thought you were asking like sales pitch for the Sabbath life. Cause I've got that one nailed down. Cause yeah, should I go there instead? Well, know, it spiritual direction is a bit like coaching in the way that it's the wild, wild west out there. Like anybody can hang a shingle on their door and call themselves a spiritual director or coach or what have you, and even do the training. And it's,
Peter White (12:35.452)
We can take that one too.
Christine Westhoff (12:58.11)
It's just hard to know who to trust. And I think Melissa mentioned that she was looking for a place to be trained. And I just feel like we hit the jackpot. It's a place clearly that I fully and completely trust or else I wouldn't be there. And I tell everybody like the curriculum is solid. It's based on one of the oldest and longest standing schools in the nation. It's inclusive, it's creative in it's approach, it's deep, it's life transforming through and through. And I thoroughly trust you, Peter, and the people who run this school and the people who work at the Sabbath life. I just couldn't vouch for you more so.
Peter White (13:45.181)
Well, we try to be good people here. So that's the aim. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say, especially over the experience that you've had in leading some of our cohorts over the last couple of years, what are some favorite pieces that you have of that or favorite elements of the things that we teach people?
Christine Westhoff (13:48.172)
This game, you a good job of it.
Christine Westhoff (14:15.69)
Me, my favorite, I I love the curriculum. I love the studies, the conversations, the books that were assigned. I love all of it. But my favorite part is all the practice. So that just feels like the most important thing that we get people in a group situation. It feels really safe and really intimate while we...
Peter White (14:16.902)
Go for it.
Christine Westhoff (14:45.418)
take our first baby steps out and start practicing really early on in the program. And that's terrifying at first, but then it's really the most valuable thing. I mean, we need to try. We need to jump into the waters and splash around and say, how am I doing? be in a safe place to be able to get feedback and just practice. that's huge to me.
And I love it. I love it so much.
Peter White (15:16.38)
How about you, Melissa?
Melissa (15:19.433)
I agree with all of those things. also really love getting to watch a new cohort show up on the very first day. There's some nervousness and some timidness and just some hesitancy around what have I signed up for? What am I doing? Are these people going to be safe? And then to watch over the course of months to see them begin to like open.
Christine Westhoff (15:27.776)
Yeah.
Melissa (15:48.353)
and breathe deeper and feel comfortable to tell their story and to see friendships form and to see them have safety to know that they can make mistakes and they can ask questions and they can express the fullness of who they are. All of that feels really beautiful over the course of two years of walking with people and getting to see that transformation.
Peter White (16:16.324)
Mm-hmm. yeah. Yeah, that's one of my favorite things too, because that always feels like the first day of school when we start and everybody's looking around like who are these people and do I really do I really want to stick this out? And then over the course of those months, yeah, seeing friendships develop, you know, we had a group this past year that started a group me chat group so they could be in touch with each other.
In between the intensives that they were here and and just seeing that add to their connection What's really sweet? Yeah What would you how would you describe your experience of going through the program? What how did it? What did you learn about? Spiritual direction or what surprised you about maybe even yourself in that process?
Christine Westhoff (16:51.722)
Uh-huh.
Melissa (17:09.647)
I think for me, I think the thing that was maybe the most surprising for me in the process was how much I learned about myself. It was like each new book, each new assignment, each new conversation was like a new doorway opening up. And that felt so invitational to walk into that space and to
Christine Westhoff (17:21.067)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (17:38.445)
begin to explore new hallways and new doors and to just have a sense of freedom to dig deeper into those things. And I think when I think about like the actual work of spiritual direction, I feel like we've got so many opportunities to practice in that space, really just having grace as we came in with different perspectives and different viewpoints, being able to listen to each other with respect and kindness and to learn from each other, regardless of all of our backgrounds. And that just felt really hopeful in a time when things can sometimes feel a little disorienting.
Peter White (18:30.106)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, because we have people from a wide variety of Christian traditions that show up in our cohorts.
Yeah, yeah. Chris, how about you? What was your experience like as a student in the program?
Christine Westhoff (18:49.868)
Oh, I loved it. And I hated it. Is that fair to say? I feel like anything good is... Well, I didn't hate it at all. But anything good is going to challenge you, you know, and I am of a certain age where I'm not in a whole lot of situations where I'm the student anymore. And it's something that I've really wanted to be intentional to remain the student as long as I possibly can.
Peter White (18:53.372)
Well, maybe if you explain a little bit.
Melissa (18:53.984)
you
Christine Westhoff (19:18.86)
walk on these two legs. I want to be a student somewhere. But it becomes challenging. And I found myself having to choose over and over again to show up fully, to be fully present, fully vulnerable, to be fully honest with, this is what I'm struggling with, and this is what I loved about this book, and this is what I hated about this book. And that was a new space for me to be able to be so honest with the parts of the homework that were really hard. I was going through some traumatic things in my life at the time and I could be fully a mess at the same time as learn so much. just, I was aware of the choices I had to make along the way to let myself be fully me, unguarded and show up just in, whatever state I was in, and in a world full of people that you don't really know very well. And like you already mentioned, the diversity of contexts that people are coming from and the theological differences and even the church cultural differences that go along with different traditions, it started out as being an intimidating thing and it became my favorite thing. Like I want to be in more rooms like that where there's theological diversity, there's age diversity, there is cultural diversity and we're challenging each other on what we're thinking in the kindest, most beautiful way. I think everybody should go through spiritual direction training. It's all the way better human.
Peter White (21:14.576)
Hmm. Yeah, it makes you a better human. I... I underscore that. Yeah.
Christine Westhoff (21:20.779)
Yeah.
Peter White (21:24.408)
Yeah. So for our program, for those of you that are listening, we meet in person here at the Abbey of the Heights for two days at a time for five times over the course of the year. So I'm curious if you guys could speak to any like the dynamic of being in person and what that matters, how that matters to you versus being online.
Melissa (21:51.051)
I love being in person. I love that we can see each other face to face. I really value, I do a lot of work online. I really value online spaces too. But I really for this training, I feel so life giving to be in the space together, to have the conversations together. It feels like the community aspect of it, eating lunches together and just being in the space creates like a deep bond with the people who are there. That feels just a little different than maybe doing something virtually.
Christine Westhoff (22:39.158)
Yeah, I would agree. I think it was the biggest draw for me at the time. I've got enough screens in my life. I just desperately wanted training to be in person. just the physical warmth of other human beings. It was on the backside of COVID and we were just all hungry for that. But I also have a really strong belief that in community, we learn just as much from the community as we do from the curriculum. It's vital. I mean, I think there's no better learning than in community. Yeah.
Peter White (23:23.462)
For sure. Yeah, so we cover a wide range of topics and tools for the art and the craft, as you put it, Chris. Are there ones particularly that have stood out to you that just really resonate with you or when we come to that particular module, you're excited for that one?
Christine Westhoff (23:47.188)
You go first, Melissa.
Melissa (23:49.017)
Okay. I'm trying to think through all of our materials. I have found that the conversations that we've had around discernment, the piece that is connected to discernment has felt really... it's taken like a deeper dive for me from the tradition I came from and what I had known. It's given me new language and new like eggs to hold onto, things that feel like anchors that are different than what I grew up with. And then I also, for me, I have really valued some of the conversations we've had around like the Enneagram and internal family systems and some of the things that just help us to discover a little bit more about who we are and how we show up in the world. And those conversations are really exciting to me.
Christine Westhoff (24:50.368)
Yeah, I love all of that too. think I'm hesitant to talk about it because mostly it's not people's favorite, but my favorite is the dark night of the soul module. It just goes so deep and I feel like it's one of those conversations that we don't have very often and in passing, you know, don't just like, hey, let's talk about this. not normally the topic in the women's bible study at church, you know, and yet it's so important that we have these conversations and I, that whole module, I, I just start getting that excited feeling before we head into that weekend because it's, it's rich, it's just deep and rich and is so transformative for everybody there, you know.
Peter White (25:40.375)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about your dark night of the soul Yeah, so yeah, those aren't conversations we have at church on Sunday morning But yeah, that's it's why we need spiritual directors to have those conversations with Yeah, so if a person was thinking about this vocation of being a spiritual director and getting trained like
Christine Westhoff (25:46.406)
I know.
No, they're not.
Exactly.
Peter White (26:09.53)
What kind of person do you think that would be? Like who would you recommend spiritual direction training to?
Melissa (26:18.221)
I mean, I think it takes all kinds. The thing I have come to see over the last many years is there's not a one size spiritual director. Like it requires all different personalities and all different journeys with the Lord. And, but I do think there are some characteristics in those people. Like I think there are some things Like people need to be willing to be curious and to sit with uncomfortable things, to be able to listen for long periods of time. And so I think just also having a sense of what the Holy Spirit is doing, being able to be in tune with the Holy Spirit and like all of those things are good important characteristics, but I think it takes all different kinds of people.
Christine Westhoff (27:21.312)
I agree. You know, we usually aim for people who have been around the block a few times. It's usually a little bit on the second half of life kind of age range. That would be the only thing I would add in there. Not that a 21 year old couldn't be a spiritual director, But I think that might be a bit challenging. You want to be able to have some life behind you. So you can look in the rear of your mirror and have some scars from the road. Feels like that's helpful, you know?
Peter White (27:59.101)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, to have some, yeah, just life experience to to be able to draw on. Yeah, it's yeah, in a lot of ways, our it's our life experience that is kind of yeah, the fuel for being able to give in this vocation. Yeah.
Christine Westhoff (28:05.706)
Yeah.
Peter White (28:26.298)
Yeah. So yeah, I wouldn't want to recommend spiritual direction training to somebody who maybe doesn't have life experience or maybe who is looking for a really quick job transition and a quick job. That's probably not the best phase of life to be in for looking for a training like this. Maybe if you have all the theology answers, that's probably not the best place either. So yeah, lot of openness and humility to how the Lord might be opening up just the next stage of life for you. I know that when I did my training and I ended it, I really didn't know what was gonna happen next. So I just continued in the ministry job that I had for a season. But then a role at a nonprofit opened up and I was using my spiritual direction skills in that job, sitting with people and praying with them. And then I had an opportunity as a corporate chaplain where I thought, well, I'm just being a spiritual director in this role. And so I know that like spiritual direction can end up looking like a whole lot of things or that the skills that you learn in it are applicable in a wide range of places. And so yeah, there's a value to it, I think, for folks that are already in ministry, maybe in a church job, and this helps them do that work in a deeper way. Or maybe who's feeling a kind of a pull and a calling to do this in a really maybe in a formal kind of setting with a practice at an office or it may look like something else entirely.
Melissa (30:12.687)
Mm-hmm.
Peter White (30:19.022)
Yeah, why do you think the world needs spiritual directors right now?
Melissa (30:25.007)
you
Hmm.
Christine Westhoff (30:30.779)
I think the world.
I don't want this to sound critical, but I think there's no way to avoid that. think that, well, let me put it this way, the world is desperate to be more at peace and mystery. It's our certainty, I think, is one of the biggest problems that we face. And we have a whole lot of... certainty that doesn't are quick easy shallow answers and the the christiandom that doesn't offer the the place to hold mystery and love the lord in the middle of mystery it's we don't naturally know how to do that i feel like There's many people that are repelled by certainty or an overconfident, know, know it all. I've got the biblical answers, you know, the over, I don't know, over-spiritualizing things that don't make sense. There's a lot of that kind of thing in churches and I think so many people are done with that, but they don't know what the other option is. They don't... know where they can actually find a place to talk about deeper things, to dive, to have somebody help them dive into the depths of their heart and soul and encourage the questions that are in hiding that need to find a home without somebody giving them the answers. Most often we don't want answers. We just need to find the Lord and the mystery. I don't know.
my first thoughts.
Peter White (32:27.388)
Melissa, do you have thoughts?
Melissa (32:29.455)
I just was thinking, I think people are longing for places that they can go and just know that what they say is not going to be critiqued or judged, that they can just have a question and wrestle with it and be reminded that God loves them and is with them in the wrestling. that they don't have to have all the answers. It doesn't have to be all sorted out. It doesn't have to be neat and tidy, but that they can still find peace and joy in the midst of all of the hard things that are going on. And I think that it is rare for us to have spaces that feel safe enough to just articulate all of the grief that we're carrying and to know that like, it's okay.
Peter White (33:27.386)
Yeah, I'm reminded of one of our people last year who I think was the very first intensive kind of after the second day, we were kind of processing as a group, like what we'd gotten out of the last two days. And he made the comment that I am so more hopeful about the world knowing that there's people like you out in it. And I just had to write that down immediately because I was like, that's that needs to go on the website or something.
Christine Westhoff (33:52.79)
Yeah.
Peter White (33:54.053)
I just need it for myself as a reminder of this, that this is how much this work matters of knowing that when we train a cohort of 15 people, then that means there are 30 people out there in the world having access to a spiritual director that wouldn't have otherwise. And the impact that that's making year after year after year.
Christine Westhoff (34:07.476)
Yes.
Peter White (34:19.044)
And just knowing that the world that we live in right now, and it feels so out of control all of the time, and we don't know what to do, and we feel so powerless. This is one of the things I know that I can do that is making a difference in the world, is just creating these safe spaces with people and inviting them to be with the Lord in that space.
Peter White (34:48.912)
All right, well, could we wind down with a couple of fun questions that I'd like to ask all of our guests? you can hate me later if you like, or in the moment too, since I'm just springing this on you. So these are questions that just have, you don't get to think about these, just the first thing that comes to your mind, okay? So what is the last book that you read?
Melissa (35:01.039)
Perfect.
Melissa (35:15.041)
the last book I read was Counterweights by Shannon Martin.
Peter White (35:23.725)
of at you.
Christine Westhoff (35:24.95)
when narcissism comes to church. But I think it's tough to grow, yeah.
Melissa (35:31.353)
Yeah.
Peter White (35:31.418)
Yeah, that's a good one. I like that one. I love the his treatment of the Enneagram and that book. That's... Yeah, it's really hard to write about the Enneagram and he does it well. Yeah. So, all right. If your job was something different other than what it is right now, what would you want it to be?
Christine Westhoff (35:35.666)
I do too!
Christine Westhoff (35:42.72)
Yeah, he does. Very good.
Melissa (35:53.923)
Like it could be anything. I would love to be an artist. I could like be like a really good artist. think that's I would love to do all the mediums, but I think painting would be the thing that I would want to do.
Peter White (35:55.267)
anything yeah.
Peter White (36:02.81)
like a particular medium in art.
Peter White (36:12.75)
painting. How about you Chris?
Christine Westhoff (36:16.084)
I think I'd want to be a dancer. Like, pull on ballet, jazz, like, like, I just would want to dance. I know it so silly, but it's always been that dream. The other thing that might be bit more realistic would be the, like an interior designer kind of creativity of creating spaces. Yeah. What about you, Peter?
Peter White (36:19.459)
Okay.
Okay.
Peter White (36:26.588)
Hahaha
Peter White (36:36.174)
Okay.
Peter White (36:41.167)
Mmm.
a job other than what I have now. I would love to be a writer on a TV show.
Christine Westhoff (36:46.035)
Uh-huh.
Christine Westhoff (36:52.077)
that's
Melissa (36:52.399)
this.
Christine Westhoff (36:55.018)
Like comedy show, sitcom, what kind of show are we talking about?
Peter White (36:58.576)
Gosh, did you see the show, The Lowdown, that was on Hulu recently? But it was about Tulsa, actually. And it was kind of like a murder mystery, but also this deep dive into local history that was, yeah, I loved it. Had an Ethan Hawke. So you should check it out. What's a place to travel that you've never been?
Christine Westhoff (37:06.271)
No way.
Melissa (37:09.263)
you
Melissa (37:19.011)
Nice.
Melissa (37:26.681)
so many places.
I'd really like to go anywhere on, you know, like Europe in that part of the country. I haven't been there at all. So I'd love to go anywhere over there. All of Europe.
Peter White (37:42.34)
all of Europe. Chris, is there a place in the world that you haven't been?
Christine Westhoff (37:44.32)
Yeah.
there's lots of places I haven't been, but I would love to go to the south of France. I've seen pictures, read the stories. I just would love to wander through the villages in the south of France.
Peter White (37:56.879)
Mm-hmm.
Peter White (38:03.804)
Hmm.
Peter White (38:08.188)
What is, what would you say is your comfort food movie? In other words, like the movie you can watch a hundred times and never get, it never gets old.
Christine Westhoff (38:17.877)
Stuck on that one, Melissa, you go.
Melissa (38:22.828)
that's easy for me, Princess Bride. All night long.
Christine Westhoff (38:25.106)
really?
Peter White (38:28.72)
We watched that with the kids just last week. Yeah.
Melissa (38:31.511)
Yeah, my kids now just, we've watched it so many times, we all just recite it basically, so.
Peter White (38:37.756)
you
Christine Westhoff (38:38.764)
Oh my gosh. I don't know, that's a hard one. I have to say we, I don't re-watch a lot of movies. There's probably a couple in there and I'm going to think about them the minute this is over, but I want to hear what yours are, Peter.
Peter White (38:44.89)
Yeah. Okay.
Melissa (38:50.575)
you
Peter White (38:52.348)
Okay, what, what mine are, yeah, cause I could probably give you a list. I'd start with the Big Lebowski. That's one I can just have on the background and yeah, it's great. Well, The Empire Strikes Back is one that I can just watch all the time. Gosh, Office Space. Yeah. Yeah, we could do movies forever.
Christine Westhoff (38:59.294)
yeah.
Christine Westhoff (39:11.431)
Awesome.
Christine Westhoff (39:19.436)
Nice.
Peter White (39:21.532)
What is a what's a favorite place you have to eat a meal?
Christine Westhoff (39:28.512)
Mm.
Melissa (39:30.499)
mean, that's really hard with my food allergies. I don't eat a lot of places, but I do love a good sushi restaurant.
Christine Westhoff (39:40.612)
I was going to say the same thing. I I love a good cozy Italian, dark, moody Italian restaurant where I could just sit in the corner with my husband and chow down on some pasta and then regret it later. But our favorite restaurant in Tulsa is a sushi place. It's on the rooftop. It's phenomenal views of the city. So that's our go-to for a special night out. What about you, Peter? What's yours?
Peter White (40:08.152)
Awesome. gosh.
Peter White (40:15.132)
I just like good food. So, I mean, this is kind of a cheesy answer, I think, but like, just the kitchen table at my house is a favorite place for a food, for a meal. So, cause she, yeah, yeah, she pulls out all the stops for the cohorts when they're here, for sure. I don't eat like that every day.
Christine Westhoff (40:27.724)
Well, you're waiting to cook, so I understand that one.
Christine Westhoff (40:34.742)
Mm-hmm.
No. Hey, that could be a sales pitch for the cohorts.
Melissa (40:39.023)
you
Peter White (40:45.315)
Yeah we just should just do like a YouTube channel of her cooking. Yeah. Alright so if we were to go out for karaoke what would be your song?
Christine Westhoff (40:47.404)
you
It's true.
Christine Westhoff (40:59.156)
You couldn't pay me enough to anything in karaoke.
Peter White (41:03.521)
Not at all. Yeah. If we're not, okay, if we're not going to karaoke then.
Melissa (41:03.725)
I feel that. I feel that exact same way. No.
Christine Westhoff (41:06.164)
Yeah, that's just I wouldn't even walk into karaoke place knowing that if there was ever going to be a slight possibility that that would happen, that would be.
Peter White (41:16.613)
you
Peter White (41:20.07)
Fair enough. What would you say makes you laugh the hardest?
Christine Westhoff (41:25.576)
this one's easy and my kids will tell you and it makes no sense whatsoever but when somebody's making fun of me like to me I laugh so hard I can't even contain myself my face hurts like I don't know why it's so funny when people I love make fun of me like mock mercilessly I just yeah it's the weirdest thing but it's pretty funny
Peter White (41:43.057)
you
Peter White (41:52.848)
That's awesome.
Melissa (41:53.037)
I don't know. The first thing that came to mind, which is why you said, is videos of people getting hurt. I don't know.
Christine Westhoff (42:00.268)
That's like a unique sense of humor that people have. This lobster humor, you know?
Melissa (42:09.646)
Mm-hmm.
Peter White (42:13.956)
Well, thank you both so much for spending this time today to share your lives and what's meaningful to you and your stories with us. If a person that's listening wanted to know more about you or connect with you and the work that you do, what would be the best way for them to do that?
Melissa (42:34.091)
You can find me on my website, holyformed.org. All my stuff that I do is there and you can reach out to me that way too.
Christine Westhoff (42:43.606)
That's awesome. Mine is meshobjective.com. Nope. mesh objective.org. I think I have both. So either one.
Peter White (42:50.428)
Yeah, it's important to buy both of those domains, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah. So, until next time, may you know in the deepest parts of you that you are loved by God. Peace.
Christine Westhoff (42:54.156)
All right.
Christine Westhoff (43:09.996)
Thank you, Peter.