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Welcome to Opfocus’s podcast RevOps Rockstars. Join hosts David Carnes and Jarin Chu as they interview RevOps professionals and explore the challenges they face today. Throughout the show, we dive into how guests got started with their careers, their best tips and tricks, and what excites them about the future of the industry.
RR - Namrata Ram Audio Only
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Namrata Ram: I wish every day was the same, but like every day there is a new, uh, sort of thing that pops up that absolutely requires, um, my, uh, my attention. I think that in the rev ops world, it's very easy to get pulled in a million different directions,
Jarin Chu:
Today's guest on the podcast is an ops leader with experience leading global teams at scale. She's had a wide range of ops responsibilities across sales, strategy, monetization, marketing, business ops. She's brought her skills in the last number of years to LinkedIn, slack, and now works as the head of revenue strategy and operations.
That notion today on the show, we're really excited to invite the podcast Naam. Welcome to the show, Naam,
Namrata Ram: Excited to be here.
Jarin Chu: right off the bat, as you know, and as our audience knows, we love to get into the juicy stuff, the stuff that feels maybe a little uncomfortable, a little vulnerable. We love some stories. So first off, what is something in rev ops, sales ops, or any other kind of ops BizOps that you've had to learn the hard way in these last number of years?
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I think the, there are a lot of different things that, you know, have. Taking time to learn and investment to learn. The thing that I've had to go the deepest into most recently was around systems and technology, um, specifically around what a good sales stack looks like. Uh, and that comes from experience.
Um, having gone through a lot of different situations where the connections between two different systems have broken. When we have made changes in one system, the other system has been impacted. A lot of those different learnings have come to light in the last, uh, in my experience at Newin, uh, that it isn't easy managing a tech stack and manage driving changes in these tech stack.
And that needs to be like proper process development processes and testing processes in place, uh, to ensure that you have a, um, You get the tools to do what, uh, you want them to do, which is to empower your sales teams. So that, for me has been like some of the, the biggest learnings that I've had, uh, in, uh, in my ops Strat ops career.
And it's interesting 'cause like it isn't specifically strategy focused or, you know, like deep, uh, you know, just that ops focus. It's been more technology focused. Um, and given that I have an engineering background in the past, it was like good relearning for me being like, Hey, this is, this level of rigor around software development has to be applied to, you know, configuration changes and customization changes within your sales stack as well.
So that for me is, uh, something that, um, you know, really stands out as a learning moment in, uh, my Strat ops career.
Jarin Chu: That's, I think, a great reflection because as we advance in terms of our responsibility skills, you know, our, our purview keeps on increasing horizontally as well. And there's some of these really fundamental things until we run into it and we're like, oh, well that messed up. Um, it brings us back to the basics.
Namrata Ram: Yes, it absolutely does. And I think that every time that happens, it's good to sort of go back to first principles and really think about, uh, you know, what is needed to drive success and be able to bring that, um, that humility and learning, um, and relearning, um, to, to every single situation.
David Carnes: I love that you have an engineering background. I'm gonna guess that a lot of the folks that come up through ops have either an fp and a or, or some other background, but not like pure engineering. So I think that's outstanding and really will, will serve you well as the tech stacks continue to evolve and get more comp complex.
So what, what size rev ops team are you working with these days?
Namrata Ram: We're slightly under 10 people. Um, and, uh, that's the size of our rev ops team. Um, and, uh, we currently just, and it's, it, it would be, um, we sh I wanna make sure that we talk about the scope as well because, you know, there are different size rev ops teams and rev ops means different things in different companies.
Um, so our rev ops team covers sales ops. Say CSS and CX customer support as well, as well as marketing ops. It most recently also had the BizTech function, as I mentioned before. Uh, but that has actually moved to a, a different leader within the organization, but it is a team that, uh, that encompasses strategy and operations across the whole G T m, um, set of functions.
David Carnes: Oh, that's great and I'm glad that you clarified. I think we're always interested in, in understanding because every company does have that different mix of responsibilities and functions within, within Rev ops, so thank you for sharing that. Um, with, so you've got your team of 10, you're spread out across the globe.
Um, how, how do you determine the right balance of in-house versus outsourced work?
Namrata Ram: That's such a good question, David. 'cause like, uh, you know, it's a constant, uh, stream of questioning that I, that clears out in my head like, do we need this as a permanent. Uh, you know, a person being in there to address the, the needs, or is it, is it more temporary? Especially as we see ebbs and flows in terms of our workload?
And I think rev ops, is it the most because, you know, especially around planning period, there is a considerable amount of spike and, um, and then it goes down and normalizes. So, um, I think that it's, it's definitely comes down to the specific functions and specific expertise that you need. Um, so if you look at the, um, the ability to address needs, certain needs through contractors, it is most easier in certain areas versus not.
So for example, uh, an area where we feel like the, the work can be sort of given away to an outsource third party, as long as we put the right processes together and we can focus on like, higher level tasks is around data cleanliness and entry. Right? So that's an area where, We typically invest in contractors because one, it, it, uh, it, it does require a lot of, you know, like deep, uh, work.
But the, the depth of the work and, and the complexity of the work is not that much. It's really about, you know, repetitive, um, tasks that you do, that you perform on a regular basis basis. And, and it's less about like strategic thinking or like deep analysis that needs to happen. So in that case, we are more than happy to outsource that kind of work, uh, to somebody such that it allows us to focus on things that requires the broader context, business context, as well as the, the deep thinking.
So I think that it, as I think about my framework for what I. Would prefer to outsource versus house in, uh, within the company? I would say number one, it's really about the, the complexity and the repetitiveness of the work, right? So that's one, uh, piece of it. So, lower complexity, high, um, Similar, uh, tasks needed to be performed one after another.
That's one piece that I would outsource. Second piece is around really being able to understand the availability of good talent within that space. So, you know, data contractors are easily available and are easily, there is a lot of good data contractors out there, so that's another area. Salesforce contractors have also seen a lot of those, uh, you know, being outsourced because the, the teams may not have in-house functionality.
There are some good Salesforce contractors that are out there that can help augment your current team as them as, as there are major projects that come in and out, right? That's the second piece. And the third one is really around being able to assess what that, um, ebbs and flows look like. Is there a, is there a spike versus not?
And if there isn't one, I don't think you necessarily need those extra contractors, but if there is one specifically around technology works specifically around planning work, that that ends up giving you the, the necessity to be, have to staff externally. So I think those three factors really play into, you know, how and when you decide to resource externally versus in-house.
David Carnes: So you, you shared a bit about your team. Um, I'm, I'm assuming they're spread out across the globe.
Namrata Ram: They're spread out across the globe. David, you you got that right?
David Carnes: So how, how do you, how are you able to shut that off if, if there are, you know, is there any time zone where you get a little bit of a break?
Namrata Ram: good, good question. Um, I do work from around, I don't work around the clock, but I do work from around, let's call it six o'clock to about eight o'clock. I do respond to pings, but then my team is a very understanding team. They know that beyond that, it's, it's, uh, you know, they try to get most of their questions in, uh, before, within that time, uh, within that time slot.
And if they need anything beyond that, they know that, you know, I can always, I will always get back to them in the morning
David Carnes: Yeah. It's a real, it's a real double-edged sword, right. Going global with the team. Just 'cause because of that. And, and I'm curious, just given the funding and given the growth, are you hiring.
Namrata Ram: Yes, we are hiring, we're, we're hiring for some very exciting roles. We are hiring on in, uh, the compensation sales compensation partner. As someone we're looking to hire, we're hoping to make our first hire on that side of, uh, the, the rev ops world. Uh, we're also looking to hire some folks in, um, CS and CX strategy and ops.
That's also an open role, uh, that's out there. So we're absolutely hiring. Um, and so anybody interested, please reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Jarin Chu: you mentioned just now in talking about, you know, the number of time zones you're managing. You're starting pretty early Pacific time, you're ending, you know, kind of in the evening, uh, after. Give me a sense, I know it's gonna change a lot given the spikes, the special projects you're pulled in. Give me a sense of what your day-to-day typically entails.
What are the kind of big rocks you try to make sure you work on in, say, a given work week?
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I wish every day was the same, but like every day there is a new, uh, sort of thing that pops up that absolutely requires, um, my, uh, my attention. I think that in the rev ops world, it's very easy to get pulled in a million different directions, Jaron. So I think you got that right, which is like, you know, there's so many different ways that you, you could potentially go about approaching your day.
Um, I like to remind myself in the beginning of the day is what are the three big priorities that I need to accomplish because I. If I don't remind myself every day that these are the three things, three most important things, I can tend to get sucked into a lot of other things. Um, so it's a good reminder to continuously, you know, like remind yourself and at the end of the day, calibrate being like, have I made progress across those three big things?
Right? Um, and so for me, I start my day with like, just anchoring myself to the most important pieces that absolutely need to get done in that, in the next two weeks or in that quarter or whatever that is. But like, bringing, make, identifying your big rocks is the most important part of starting your day.
And then there's a lot of work that goes into, you get sucked into meetings. Conversations with, uh, uh, cross-functional stakeholders, fire drills. Uh, and so the, the day goes on. But it making sure that you spend at least, you know, I don't know, let's call it 30 to one hour. Uh, your time on these big rocks is incredibly important.
So I actually ask my EA to block out at least, you know, one, two hours in my day to work on those pieces. So, uh, my day-to-day just varies a lot, uh, on a regular basis, but the consistent part of it is, um, around being able to make progress on those three, three top priorities.
Jarin Chu: Yeah, and I think most people we've spoken to where they really have this sense of direction, have some. Sort of habit or some sort of way to like start their day in the right foot. What are some examples of those, you know, common or recent top priorities that have been on your radar? What are you trying to make sure, hey, I have a couple hours a day to make sure I'm pushing this forward.
Namrata Ram: Yeah. Some examples of this is of course, planning, right? Planning for the next fiscal year. Um, especially as you know, you. With the incredible growth to sustain that, there has to be a sizable amount of scaling that happens, especially for the, the sales team. So, um, I think that that is a, a focus area. How do you scale efficiently, responsibly, um, in a way that is best suited to capture the, the growth potential out there.
But at the same time, you aren't like growing for the sake of grow growing. Um, so that's one area that I'm, that I'm focused on, uh, as a, as a, as a top priority, as an example. Um, the, the next area that I am focused on is really around, uh, more building out the, um, sales methodology piece. So enablement also falls onto me, and I should have mentioned that in the, in, in my, uh, when I was describing the scope of rev ops.
So sales methodology and sales process. Especially in a company that is scaling, it's incredibly important to establish because you are bringing in new folks on such, at such a high clip that you want to make sure that they have some sort of prescriptive guidance in place. 'cause they come from varying backgrounds.
They come from like, they have varying level of experience. You want to have a prescriptive process in place. So sales process and methodology is, is another area that I'm really investing very deeply into, uh, because it's a foundational element that is going to help us really scale, um, in the future. And the third piece of it is being able to build a, um, you know, um, proper sort of operating cadence.
For us, and not just forecasting and blah, blah blah, but like, how do you create these pipe gen programs where you are developing pipe not just for that quarter, but like three quarters ahead, and how do you make sure that you are hitting these pipe gen targets, right? Because that's important. And then once you have the pipe, how do you make sure that you are executing on this pipe effectively through the ideal reviews, through the right checks and balances, all those pieces.
I think that when people say operating cadence, they think it's forecasting. That's, that's one piece of it, yes. But there's a lot of rigor around building pipe and making sure that you're closing out deals. That's a really important foundational part that is really important to establish right from the beginning as opposed to, you know, towards, um, towards the middle of your scaling journey.
Jarin Chu: I think the challenging thing, especially for folks listening right now in, in this year 2023, where there's just still so much uncertainty in the market where almost everyone we've spoken to have said, wow, it's fell a lot harder, is, you know, in a good year, it's easy for us to say, well, let's look at not only this year, let's look at next year.
Let's look at the three quarters from now, four quarters from now, et cetera. And in a year like this, everyone seems to just be, well, what do we need to do to stay afloat today or tomorrow or like in a week? It's much more reactive. And I think what's remarkable is obviously with notions growth, you are still able to maintain that level of strategic, uh, time horizon.
Uh, you're looking ahead and you're not just saying, well, you know, let's, let's manage the demand coming in right now. How do we ensure we have the pipe, uh, some, some quarters, or some years in the
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I think that it's always interesting. There's always gonna be a balance of short term initiatives versus medium term initiatives. But the, the reality is that, um, There are only a few levers that really change around performance overnight or like in a very short period of time, especially with sales, because the deals, depending on your deal cycles, right?
So if you have a very short deal cycle, yes you can, you know, um, Drive immediate change almost overnight. But usually in order for you to drive significant amount of change, it takes about two quarters, um, in, in the sales world. Uh, so I've, like, I have taught myself to set the right expectations. Um, and I understand that in, you know, you know, being overly reactive is probably not the best thing.
'cause then it can create a whiplash effect and then you don't really know whether something has worked or not. 'cause it takes about two quarters of data to be able to assess is this working, is this not working? Because there are, uh, seasonality assumptions in play is a lot of different things that need to happen.
The uptake could be a lot slower depending on the size of the sales team. So I have set myself to believe that even if I am being reactive to certain things, I give enough time such that I am able to truly assess, did that tactic work or not?
Jarin Chu: I love that. And you know, when we're on the topic of assessing, I'd love to hear from you, given that you do have so many functional areas that roll up to you. You're thinking about today and the future, you know, these short-term and midterm projects. How do you. Effectively measure and track Suce success in your own role?
Like what To me, what to you in your position being so cross-functional will actually demonstrate like, Hey, this year didn't go by and I was only responding to fire drills.
Namrata Ram: Yeah, that's a, that's a great, uh, great question that I keep asking myself every single day. Right. What does success look like for me and my team? And I think the answer is, is, is, is pretty obvious to me, which is like you having, being, I. The support engine or the strategic engine that drives all these different functions, you are inevitably try tied to the success metrics that assess those different functions.
So for sales, it's revenue for marketing, it's inbound pipe gen. For, uh, cx it's csat. Uh, for css it's utilization and churn. Um, so all these different metrics that the, the teams are gold on is, is indirectly your goal. 'cause your job is to make sure that they are successful. Um, and so as I think about impact, as I think about prioritization, I think about like what are the initiatives that are going to move the needle on those metrics the most and are prioritized that way because it is just really important to tie yourself.
Uh, to the, the functions that you are supporting, um, and, you know, be laser focused on those things. Of course, all of those are lagging indicators, but there could be leading indicators, right, that you may want to track. So for example, for the pipeline efforts we talked about, did you have a certain number of meetings that you drove and that you were able to effect a change in, in change in trajectory?
So suppose they were like, I don't know, making, having 10 calls a day, were you able to get it up to 12 calls a day? Um, and so I think it's not, the metrics itself is important, but driving change and continuous improvement across these metrics is probably something that you should, you know, think about and, and focus on because those are the initiatives.
That drive, that change is what you can attribute your success to. Um, so that's how I think that, uh, I think about, um, you know, success for rev ops, although it's not easy and there are a lot of factors, right? It's a, you know, correlation versus causation. You can never really fully tie something out to one specific factor.
I know that from running a ton of data analysis, but, uh, I do my best to see what the Rev ops team can do to help with those North Star metrics and look at leading indicators that lead those metrics and try to move those.
Jarin Chu: I love that. I think the incremental can sometimes be very, very meaningful because like you said, it's hard to determine was it something your team did or was it something, uh, the hiring strategy resulted in, you know, there's all these factors. So I wanna take this, uh, just one more step deeper, which is, is there anything right now that's keeping you up at night?
What types of ops stuff are you really trying to solve right now?
Namrata Ram: I think the, the thing that is keeping me up at night is probably keeping a lot of people up at night, which is around, um, the AI transformation that is, you know, that we're all experiencing. Um, and we want to be drivers and not just, we wanna be in the driver's seat as opposed to just reacting to it. So I think about every day is like, every time there is a certain sales problem that happens, not problem, but certain sales like function, like can we do this better through technology is something that con is constantly coming up.
My coming up in my mind, which is, And in every, almost every single part of the sales process, right, with the, it is like prospecting. Can we do that better? How can we get the right intelligence, whether it is outreach, how can we create customized cadences based on signals as opposed to, you know, um, you know, more, you know, standard cadences that we send out.
Can we actually use ai, especially these L L M models to come up with the right messaging and outreach. And then once you go to content creation, is there something that can help our sales team get the right r o i metrics easily and put that into an output? And then of course, while they're having the conversations with the, the customers, is there a prompt that AI can give to help them better have a conversation?
So all of these different things, Can happen. And we are in the face of some incredible change in transformation. And I think what, what we're going to see is that the sales teams that do get ahead are ones that are able to take advantage of this in a very meaningful way. Um, and the ones that are, you know, like, uh, left behind will, will have to catch up, up at some point.
And so my, what's keeping me up at night is how do I make sure that NOTIONS sales team is at the forefront of this technological change that is happening? Um, and that is, so we're testing out a lot of different things within the team to be able to see what works and what doesn't work.
Jarin Chu: Can you share one or two examples that's getting you very excited right now in terms of how you're incorporating A I R L models internally? Um, for I, for any team that's rolling up under you.
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I mean, I think the technology is still being developed, so like we are trying to make some experiments to see what works versus not. But one of the things that we are considering is like, how do you take, there's a lot of product usage, there's a lot of LinkedIn data on like specific contacts in terms of what they do.
How do you take that and build a personalized message, uh, in terms of outreach? Right. So the biggest drop off that we see is from outreach to meeting. And so if we were to improve that, like talking about lagging elea indicators here, Uh, if we were to improve that, then you're, you are automatically going to see a pretty big impact on revenue.
And so one of the things that we have found is that personalized emails do get, you know, better responses. Personalized outreach on LinkedIn gets responses. So how do you build this personalized response, personalized outreach to a large number of contacts? And if we can leverage the l and m models to try and create the right cadence outreach, then I think that, um, that could be a very interesting way to, uh, engage, um, customers.
And that impacts, you know, the, the top of funnel, the top of the sales funnel, which I think could obviously pull through a lot of different ways. Another way is that, you know, we are looking at, uh, really being able to. Pull together, uh, the right, uh, resources. And some of this is still very, very early stages of experimentation, is content creation.
Can you automatically create, and I think some of it already exists in different, like companies like LinkedIn and Slack where they've like pre-built some of the content creation for the sales team. But can you use the l l m models to go one step deeper, deeper mine the gong calls and, you know, prep come up with a, a prep document for the sales team to be like, here's some of the frequently asked questions that the customers have asked based on previous conversations.
So being able to parse that information. And give account specific insights is another interesting area that, uh, we could de dive deeper into and that we're thinking about. Um, and so those are some examples of, uh, of specific areas where it is more easy. Um, there's a, the harder one would be, you know, coming up, um, with some sort of prompting technology.
But, um, that one is, uh, a bit further away.
Jarin Chu: Out of curiosity, knowing that notion's invested also a lot in your ai uh, internally for your product, are there any ways that your, um, go-to-market team, your revenue team is using Notion and its AI functionality to help with some of the things you've just mentioned regarding outreach, meeting setting, content creation, et cetera?
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I think that, you know, a lot of different teams are exp, I mean, a lot of different folks are experimenting with this a lot. Like, and I can tell you what, like how it's helped me. Right now we have our AI writer functionality built in, which is very solid. So every time I create content, I'm able to like, summarize or I'm able to improve writing.
I'm also able to like, you know, um, take in the, the meeting notes that I put in and, you know, come up with action items and fill out a database, right? Because notion's a connected workspace where you can, you know, really make work happen. You're able to take conversation and convert that into action, um, right within notion.
And I think the AI writer functionality already allows you to do that. And so now applying it to the sales context, I think that's a very similar, a lot of the sales teams are starting to do that, which is like when they have cross-functional part teams, And they've had a customer conversation being able to, uh, you know, have, take those meeting notes and convert it into a database that assigns different folks.
action items very easily is an area where, you know, a lot of teams are starting to use this also in their prep and outreach. Uh, they are starting to use the notion, software to be able to create the right outreach for, um, different customers because a lot of our content lives within Notion.
So they're able to pull together an effective email based on the, notion's best functionality that PMM created. Um, and so in both those ways, people are already starting to use Notion AI to really transform their, um, their, uh, their day-to-day work. And I think the more that you figure out how you're gonna, you, you, you should be able to do that, the better and more efficient your teams and yourself is gonna be.
So, um, it's an exciting time for all of us, I think.
David Carnes: How exciting to hear about that. I think for probably a lot of us and a lot of our listeners, AI right now is a little bit of a play thing with sort, almost like a novelty, pull it out and try something. When my book came out, I asked, uh, uh, chat, g p t, you know, what would be a good strategy for marketing a new book on Salesforce analytics?
And Whoosh came out, you know, it came out the answer. Uh, so it's great to hear that notion is taking advantage of its own technology, uh, in, in innovative ways. So, Nam, you, you've worked at multiple product-led growth companies from LinkedIn to Slack through the Salesforce acquisition and now notion. What are some cross-functional corporate level initiatives that are unique to product-led growth?
Uh, operations.
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I think the, um, the, the, the. The cross-functional initiatives are very much focused on being able to leverage the online and product-led growth to be able to scale that further, right? So take the initial interest that comes in online and to be able to scale that further into a world to wall deployment or a broader relationship.
And so a lot of the cross-functional initiatives span both the growth team, the growth team is typically focused on the driving the, the online acquisition of customers and the expansion within the online space. And then the sales teams are focused on like taking that online interest that does come in and then expanding it to a more, uh, you know, long-term contract and long-term relationship and more expanded relationship.
And so the cross-functional, you know, initiatives often span, especially within P L G companies, span both the, the growth side as well as the sales side. Coming together to figure out like what are the ways to impact the full customer journey? Uh, and so an example of that could be how you onboard a customer after you sign a sales contract can be very much impacted from how they ended up using the product in the first place after signing up by themselves, right?
Um, and so a lot of the pain points that the customer success team is having here, there needs to be a, a conversation with the growth team in terms of how they are enabling onboarding right from the beginning in the automated workflows when people are signing up. So that's an example of a cross-functional initiative where CSS is talking to product and saying, here's what, here's the pain points that we're seeing, what can be done right at the beginning of the customer journey to ensure that they're signing up for the product in the right way.
And they're using the product in the right way. Right? So that's an example of, uh, a cross-functional initiative that you would see in a P L G company, only because in most other non P L G companies, it's directly, you're going through sales, that's your first touch point. And, uh, you are, uh, you, you are going, you are, you're, you are essentially going on a different, you're setting on a different customer journey, and that's the beginning there.
But oftentimes in a P L G company, once sales gets in, the, the customer has already had a decent amount of experience with the product. And so being able to drive that connection point between growth and sales, to be able to say what is the best and optimal customer journey to drive full success is so important and are examples where you, there has to be a cross-functional collaboration that happens almost regularly between the two teams.
David Carnes: I, I, you know, it's funny, I'm thinking in my own experience, uh, speaking to a user group in Charlotte, uh, last week about some new Salesforce analytics features, and one in particular that I'm really excited about. But it, it takes a checkbox to turn it on and people are like, well, what do you think, uh, will stop people from using this?
I'm like, it's the stupid checkbox. Like, and, and you know, one team that's the product engineering team doesn't have control over the enablement features, and maybe these teams need to talk to each other a little more to smooth that out. It sounds great that that notion that you've, you've got that thought through, uh, especially with that product, that growth motion of having, uh, people having had experience already with the product and maybe it wasn't a good experience and maybe, you know, uh, so, um, I'd love to ask you about board and investor visibility.
Um, do you interface with the board of investors
Namrata Ram: I do, I do pres, I do present to the board, uh, on a quarterly basis.
David Carnes: and one of the reasons that, that I like to ask is that we have a lot of interest within the rev ops world. Some teams. Present some teams prep materials and present to the board. Others just, uh, we'll pull, pull metrics together and create the stories around them. Um, can you share a little bit about your background with prepping board materials?
Uh,
Namrata Ram: Yeah. So I think that, you know, the, the board conversations are, Should be like, as transparent as possible in terms of how we're doing. And, uh, currently basically what, where we wanna go and how we're doing against where we wanna go. Those are the, the, the things that you're trying to communicate, which is like, here's where we wanna go.
Here's our strategy, here's how we're doing against it. Um, and so that's essentially how I present some of the, the, or put together the materials and the story very much is about, um, you know, the journey that we're on to get to where we wanna go. Um, and it's a lot of focus on upleveling the metrics.
'cause otherwise we, as the rev ops teams, we have to go deep right, in order to be operators. Uh, and oftentimes we can, we could get lost in like the detailed nuances, but I think when you're having a conversation with the board, it has to be more about a narrative that you're telling around the, um, The journey and the direction, uh, in which you are hoping to move.
So it's not just about the metrics, but it's about the movement of what are the most important metrics. So, um, I think that, you know, uh, a sample, an example narrative can be, Hey, we want to get to $1 billion and, uh, here's where we are today, and in order to get there, we need to improve this and this, and here's how we're doing in terms of improving this and this.
Right? So that could be a sample narrative that you use to a board, uh, that could actually, you know, give enough clarity on the direction and the progress that you're making quarter on forward.
David Carnes: I think it's great. Uh, one of the chapters in my book was about trending, and that's, you know, that's part of it that's looking backwards, but, but I like the idea of the, you know, um, what you shared with the journey and the direction. So on the topic of reporting and as this fits into technology, I'm, I'm curious, where do you go to get an at a glance view of how the business is doing?
Namrata Ram: Great question. Where do I go to get, there isn't one space, obviously I use Salesforce reporting. Uh, um, having worked, uh, you know, in Salesforce, I am very familiar with some of the Salesforce reporting. Uh, and so I have my own reports and dashboards built in terms of where are we in terms of, uh, you know, our total e r r that's closed, incremental, e r r, that's closed, as well as, uh, what's our pipe and what's our coverage looking like, right?
So I'm able to see that directly within, within Salesforce, and that's a pretty easy pull for me. Now, the more nuanced metrics around meetings and things like that, we have piped that into Salesforce, but. The, the ability to view that is not as easy and the ability to do cohort analysis is not that easy.
So, for example, when you wanna track lead, influencing the lead cohort, how did it do, uh, you have to use like, external data science dashboards? So I would say a combination of both Salesforce and data science dashboards is sort of what I use to, um, to give a, get a sense from where the business is at
David Carnes: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious more broadly, is there a tech stack tool that you just couldn't live without?
Namrata Ram: a tech stack tool that I couldn't live without. Um, I think that I have a lot of favorites. Um, some of my favorites are, I, I do like gong because it gives you a lot of insight into the conversation. Uh, oftentimes we say, okay, conversations happen. What is good, what is bad is. Is gonna be interesting. And especially again, with going back to this AI technology, I think we can do even more in like seeing, parsing out what customer sentiment is and things like that based on what people are seeing over time.
Something to to definitely look at. Um, so I, I do like that. And then I also, uh, one of the other tools that I do use is also people ai, which gives me access into like emails and meetings and all of those different pieces. So I think that that's another area where, uh, I look at, I also look at engagement on Slack because a lot of customers, a lot of reps now are using Slack connect to, um, to drive conversations with customers and they found it to be a much easier way of communication.
Um, so also engagement with Slack on customer, with customers is, um, is, is another important tool that I look at to, to be able to, to do stuff, um, and, and analyze, um, the, the input metrics of the sales teams.
David Carnes: Well, you've got a kindred spirit with gong, uh, in, in Jaron here, so I'm sure she'd love
Namrata Ram: I could tell Jar was smiling when
David Carnes: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jarin Chu: Um, in the first 35, 40 minutes, uh, we've talked a lot about kind of your day-to-day work, your thoughts around, um, how AI can help with go-to market motions. I wanna spend probably the. Letting our audience get to know you a bit better. You are currently based outta Palo Alto in California, tech Central.
Um, you've got your Beat Tech in Information Technology back home in the National Institute of Tech in Kaneka, and then also you got your M B A, um, from UVAs Darden School of Business. Previously, you know, we've referenced a few times already. You were with Slack, you were with LinkedIn specifically, you were head of sales strategy and operations at Slack prior to joining notion, how did you find yourself in rev ops and go to market ops today?
What was this like long and winding road where you discovered, hey, operations might be my thing?
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I mean, uh, it's, um, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting story, uh, for sure. Um, I, I, I grew up in Bangalore. Let's start from the beginning. I'll just, I'll give you a quick overview of sort of how I get got here. Grew up in Bangalore and, uh, uh, in, in India, and it before the tech. So the IT revolution, it was a sleepy, sleepy retirement town with great weather.
But then, uh, the, it re revolution came about and like it transformed into a, like solid IT hub. And I was, I was quite enamored by that as a, as a child. And I, so I decided to go into engineering and, um, so I pursued, uh, uh, you know, computer engineering in my undergrad. And focus there, uh, because I was so enamored by it.
And I really liked the problem solving element of engineering and being able to build things that I found very exciting as well. Right? So both those pieces I loved. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna go into and, and become an engineer. And my first job out of undergrad was to go into Intuit and I worked on QuickBooks, um, which, uh, as an accounting software, at that point it was desktop.
And a lot of the work that I was doing was around trying to take it and make it more of an online, uh, ified product at that point in time. Some probably dating myself here, uh, by, by mentioning this. But yeah, it was, it was fun. It was almost like the beginning of like the SaaS sort of, um, movement and, um, and so that was, that was my job.
I, I liked it. I, I really enjoyed it. One of the things that I found, I. One of the things that you will find as an IC engineer is that you go very deep into certain problems and you have to write like how exactly things work. In that point we were using c plus plus in in Java. Um, the thing that I felt that was missing was the breadth and the, the high level visibility.
And so that's why I was like, okay, you know, I wanna try and explore more of the business side of things. So I went into business school and then consulting. 'cause I certainly got that scratch that itch of breath, especially with consulting. 'cause I went to a lot of different industries, solved all these different kind of problems.
Um, and it was great. And I was like, okay, I scratched that h around breath, which is great, but I really wanna go back into tech, uh, because I loved being in tech and I felt like tech is the future, right? Having gone and worked in a lot of these other industries, I was like, okay, I wanna go to the industry that is defining the future.
Um, so found myself back in tech and, uh, picked more of the, the business side of things. 'cause now I had the, the business context and I felt like I really gravitated towards go to market because I felt that, you know, this is where the companies revenue engine lies, right? For the most part, especially as you think of B two B SaaS.
This is where the, the revenue engine really lies and bring, make in realizing the, the customer value as well as realizing the commercial and, uh, business goals of the, the, uh, the company. Um, and so I moved towards, across different functions and I built expertise across different functions to be able to really understand how to build a go-to-market engine that is very effective, efficient, and can realize the dream of a lot of different product companies that are like, Hey, I.
I have a great product. How do I realize my dream? You need a strong go to market engine. Um, and so that's sort of what brought me to, uh, this space and this, um, this specific discipline. One could call if one, one, one can call it that.
Jarin Chu: And you bopped around and I can see, you know, during your time at LinkedIn, um, you did some BizOps, you did monetization strategy, you spent some time in marketing. I mean, you really were trying everything right? And you were heavily into sales strategy and ops by the time you got to Slack. Given that you know your current role as head of revenue strategy and operations at Notion, and you've had some of this experience at other P L G companies like Slack, what would be advice you give yourself on day one of your current role?
Is it like nine some months ago now looking back?
Namrata Ram: Yeah. I think that, um, the advice that I would give myself is that, um, Be prepared for constant change, um, and be prepared to adapt to it and stick to, um, you know, don't be afraid of sticking to first principles thinking. Right. Um, and so I think that that is something that I would tell myself. The reason is constant change in a, in, when you move to a smaller company, everything changes all the time, and you just have to be used to it.
And if you are stuck in one sort of mode of thinking, then you are gonna be left behind. Um, so constant change is, is really important. Uh, and I think that, you know, nine months in or 10 months in, um, I have, uh, um, I have like adapted to this movement and how quickly it moves, uh, which, and I, and, and I enjoy it.
Um, so that's, that's one piece. The second piece is around, um, you know, and this is, you know, I've spoken to a lot of different, uh, Peers who have gone into different companies is that once we have experiences, we have experiences for a reason, and we have seen certain playbooks for a reason, and that's why you're brought into the company.
But one of the things that I really tried to apply as soon as I got in is that, you know, what are, what is the thing that works the best for that company? And being able to take, put a push, put aside some of those experiences, and really think from first principles on certain problems, you might find other problems where it's easier to implement a playbook, right?
Versus going down and trying to solve, uh, you know, solve from first principles, for example, systems and changes in one area where you could, like, you know, it, uh, you go and use some of the, the learnings that you've seen in the past, but in other areas where. There is a unique product that we're taking to market.
There is a unique customer value that you are providing. It requires a lot of deep, uh, fundamental foundational thinking, uh, versus like saying, oh, this is what I've seen work in the past. I'm just gonna apply it here.
David Carnes: So Nam, you, you have a pretty amazing BA background, um, and I sense that you can go in pretty much any direction that you want. In an ideal world. What's next on your career bucket list?
Namrata Ram: Uh, I think that I. I don't know if I'd call my career an amazing career, but I think that I've had the, the, the privilege of learning, uh, from a lot of different, uh, people and companies, uh, in my past. So I'm, I, uh, I'm very grateful for that. Uh, in terms of where I want to, uh, go in the future, um, I do want to, to move more into the, uh, the sales side.
And because I've had, I've played along the sidelines for so long and I'm ready to be a player. Um, and so I really do think that, you know, sales is likely the next move for me. And then really being able to apply with that at some point to more of a, um, CRO path, um, is, um, is, is hopefully, uh, something that I wanna pursue
David Carnes: Well, maybe one of the tools in your tech stack that you know, that you light up about when you talk about, we'll, uh, we'll hear this and. I ask you to ask you to come
Namrata Ram: maybe, yeah.
David Carnes: So leading rev ops is pretty intense. You talked about the hours you keep, you've got a team scattered around the planet.
Uh, what do you do to unwind from the insanity of the rev ops role?
Namrata Ram: I actually love to, to run. Um, and so I have a Peloton trend in my house. Uh, and so I, um, every, I try to do five days a week, like go on a, go on at least a, a 20 minute run in like 10 minutes. Strength training. I love working out. Um, and it just allows me to just, you know, decompress and disconnect, uh, and really, um, focus on, uh, a different side of things, which is challenging my, my, uh, my physical abilities.
Um, and so I think that that's, um, that's fun and I think that's one of the things that I really.
Jarin Chu: No wonder, you always seem so energized and calm because you've got the workout in every single day. That's amazing. My last question for you, Nam, before we wrap up here, is, are there certain resources or people, um, folks who talk a lot about rev ops that you personally turn to, to keep your go-to-market ops and rev ops thinking fresh?
Um, and maybe it's an opportunity for you to shout out anyone that you've worked with before. You're like, oh, this person has been amazing, taught me so much, or I've learned so much with, uh, working together. Um, what kinds of resources would you recommend people to check out or
Namrata Ram: Yeah, resources. Um, really, really good. Um, really good question. I actually, um, spend a lot of time on YouTube researching, um, AI and what is, how it's gonna change the future and what are the, some of the top, uh, tools and, uh, workflows that it's going to impact. So I spent a lot of time just like googling and like.
Searching and researching on that. Um, so that's one of the things that's honestly helped me keep my thinking up to mind. 'cause it's, the pace of change is rapid. It's like changing on a daily base every day. So something, there's a new trend and I'm like, oh shit, I need to catch up. So there's a lot of FOMO that's going on, which, uh, which I find really interesting.
And I, um, and I do, um, Like that. Um, I, I do wanna call out and shout out to some of the, the awesome folks that I'm currently working with and I, that I've learned a lot from and, um, uh, obviously, you know, have seen a lot of growth on, uh, growth with, uh, you know, some folks. Uh, my current CRO Erica, she's amazing.
Um, she was, uh, GitHub's, uh, CRO as well. So it's great to, great to learn from her. Um, and, uh, I also have worked with, uh, Bob Frady, um, and Eli Wiener. Uh, both, uh, both. Some great, uh, you know, uh, Bob was the CRO. Slack and Eli was, uh, the head of Rev ops, uh, at Slack and I used to report to him. So both great folks, uh, that I've learned from and also my, my previous, uh, leader, Matt Heist, uh, who used to, uh, lead finance for Slack, also a great mentor.
Uh, so these are some amazing folks that have really influenced my career, so definitely wanna give a shout out to them.
Jarin Chu: Amazing. This is a awesome crew and maybe Eli or Mass or someone might hear this and they might wanna join the podcast at some point too. Last but not least, where can people find you? Namm? Are you on LinkedIn? How can they find out more about Notion? Where are the places they should be visiting?
Namrata Ram: Yeah, I mean, you could definitely reach out to me on LinkedIn. Um, and I'm there. I am very responsive to InMail. Um, so feel free to reach out and, uh, I'd be happy to get back and answer any of your questions or be ready to have a chat as well.
Jarin Chu: Great. And if they wanna find out more about how an notion can help them, where can they find out more about that?
Namrata Ram: There's a lot of, uh, resources online around how to use Notion. You can learn about our different pricing operation op options online as well. Very easy to get online as you know, that there's, uh, there's like millions of users using Notion all over the world. Um, so, uh, hopefully very accessible online, but if there's anything that I can help with, please reach out and I'm happy to help you with it.
David Carnes: So now this has been an amazing conversation. We're so appreciative of the time spent with you, uh, here today. Uh, it was so interesting to hear you talk about your, your daily three, uh, priorities that you focus on each day and even allocating time in your, in your schedule, uh, to ensure that you spend time on the big rocks.
Um, I appreciated hearing about the sales methodology and sales process work as the company's scaling and how that feeds enablement. I also really liked your comment on, um, uh, being prepared for constant change in this kind of a role. So, uh, it was really just such a pleasure to hear your enthusiasm and, and hear about your many experiences.
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Jarin Chu: We'd also, of course, love to thank everyone who's been listening. These last 30 some episodes. We're coming close to the end of season one here. Um, so if you learn something today, if you've got someone in mind who you're like, this person would be great for the podcast, uh, please reach out to us on Rev Ops, rock Stars on LinkedIn, or Ping David and I on LinkedIn.
But today, so glad to have NAMM share your experiences. We're so glad that we could spend the hour together. Thanks again,
Namrata Ram: Thank you, Jaron. Thank you, David. It's a pleasure.
Jarin Chu: and this has been another exciting eye-opening. Maybe we gotta catch up on AI sort of episode for Rev Ops rock stars, and we'll see everyone next time.
David Carnes: Stay classy. Rock stars.