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Becoming sustainably human at work isn't a small undertaking. It often means letting go of systems and behaviors that don't serve us individually or collectively.
So what do we do? As individuals, as groups of folks, as leaders? How do we carve out space for our humanity while making sure we're not the only ones? How do we thrive in the workplace while not imagining we must be superhuman? How do we cultivate spaces that are generative and healing, creative and extraordinary?
I don't have the answers to those questions. And, to be fair, I don't believe one human can EVER have all the answers to those questions. I'm working through those questions every day.
This podcast curates for you a set of folks with an opinion worth listening to and sharing. So join me as I ask people I admire to share their wisdom with you in accessible doses.
Join me on my quest to become sustainably human at work.
Welcome to What's Leadership?
I'm Liz Wiltsie.
The more I learn about leadership,
the more I'm convinced there's
not a one-size-fits-all solution.
So I am on my own learning journey
and I invite you to join me.
EbonyJanice reminds me that being
open about my journey is important.
Each episode features someone I admire
with actionable insight to share.
So please, join me as I
ask What's leadership?
Today, I get to welcome a friend
of mine, James-Olivia, and I am
so, so excited that they're here
with me, on the podcast today.
So I'm going to tell you a
little bit about them and then
we're going to dive right in.
So
James-Olivia Chu Hillman is a relational,
life, and leadership coach, a
mediator, facilitator, and enthusiastic
advocate of necessary, uncomfortable,
and life-changing conversations.
They work with people who want more
joyful connection and less suffering in
their relationships with themselves, the
people they love and lead, and the world.
James-Olivia has a passion for asking
questions that make us squirm a bit
and point us back to who the fuck
we are and what we care about most.
Thank you for being here with me.
Thank you, I'm so excited.
I know we've been talking for like an
hour already, so this is hilarious.
But we're going to pretend.
So, James-Olivia, one of the things
that I love about your work is just,
talking about relational fuckery and
the things that, that really keep us
from connecting with other people.
And one of the things that's always
struck me is how often we're in
those situations in the workplace.
So I would love for you to talk
about the concept of relational
fuckery and how it sort of shows up
for us in professional situations.
Okay.
Sorry.
Typewriter dam already in my head
because you, putting together, relational
fuckery and work situations, it just
occurred to me that work is one of the
places that relational fuckery is not
only prevalent, but it is one of the
preferred ways of relating, precisely
because it keeps us from connecting.
Too much connection, too much
actual relating as humans
would be weird at work, right?
So we engage in as much
fuckery as possible.
but I think, did you
just ask me what it is?
Do I need to define that real quick first?
Oh, if you would like to go ahead.
Sure.
I don't remember, because
I got really excited.
I didn't, because I was like, Oh, this
is kind of self-explanatory, right?
But, but please, by all means.
Okay.
So one of the ways I define it,
in many ways, depending on which
Instagram day you hit me on.
But one of the common ways that I
define it, as the, the strategies that
we use when we're trying to win our
relationships, instead of cultivate them.
So basically when we are trying to
be right or we're trying to avoid
responsibility or avoid feeling
things because, Oh, God forbid we
feel things at work, that would
be horrifying and embarrassing and
unproductive, instead of connect
joyfully and actually get to know what
it's like to be human with each other.
Yeah.
I'm glad you defined that.
Thank you.
Thanks for letting me.
Of course.
And I forgot if you asked
something else cause now I'm
just like all tickled with us.
So, I just asked how it shows up at
work and you answered it to an extent,
which is, that it is actually the
preferred way of being at work and the
way that we're really taught to be.
Can you say more about that?
So I don't know what everybody
else's experience is.
Like I spent over a decade in, okay,
I'm going to say, in "deep corporate"
and so much of the, the relating to one
another was about being as respectable,
appropriate, I'm going to throw in words
like perfectionism, like, not making
anyone too uncomfortable unless it was
your job to make people uncomfortable.
There's, there's something deeply
uncomfortable about being vulnerable
and awkward and human together in,
well, we're both in the States, but, and
I'm going to say in corporate culture,
like God forbid we be human together.
And human is messy and there are
feelings and there are accusations
and there are, I'm going to say this
word, needs, like we'd have needs.
There's, there's all this stuff that comes
with being, being a person and at work,
if what we've got going on is that we're
not supposed to be a person we're supposed
to be a productive member of a team or
whatever role, like we're not supposed to
be a person, we're supposed to be a role.
We're supposed to be really, really
effective, and what was this movie
Ben and I just watched, it was like
a Tom Cruise one, was it, Oblivion?
I think it is, where the, the,
they're being sort of, I don't want
to say controlled, but managed by
this hilarious lady AI who keeps
asking, Are you an effective team?
Not like, Are you like a happy person?
Are you fulfilled?
Are you getting what you
need to get your job done?
Are you, like, what's important to you?
Is this meaningful?
Are you an effective team?
And so being effective, being productive,
being a bunch of things that, you know,
capitalism and patriarchy and white
supremacy and like all these systems
want us to be so that they go smoothly
and none of this is interrupted.
So that the status quo can stay the
status quo and what we can do instead of
get messy is just keep growing bigger.
It's an affront to capitalism
to throw a wrench in it with
emotions and needs and desires.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if...
We laugh cuz it hurts.
We laugh cause it hurts,
because it's so true.
If you were gonna like say to folks,
here's one thing to sort of just
kick against that idea, of, not
kick against being effective, but
like being only defined as being
effective team and to be more human,
and more human in relationship, what
would you, what would you point to?
Well, I would say I'd start
with, did you say just one thing?
Just to start, We're just
talking, you know, where to start.
There's lots of things and
there's never just one.
So the first thing is, in service
to what we're actually trying
to do, like effective, for what?
Effective, to what end?
In service to what?
When we ask people to show up as
full, magnificent human beings
in service to that greater what.
When they/we care about it, we
are more effective as full people
than we are as cogs in a wheel.
When we can bring our passion and our
creativity and our desire for connection
and like, all of these chemical needs
that we have, like for dopamine and
serotonin and oxytocin and all these,
like all, all the good drugs that we
get from connection actually drive our
productivity and our effectiveness way
more than disconnection could ever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I tend to think about how,
I worked really hard not to be
talking about like, how do, how do
we make ourselves more productive?
How do we do what have you?
And people will often say to me.
"Yeah.
But if you are happy,
you are more productive."
Which is true.
Sometimes.
I mean, or, or, you can refine your team.
If we're talking about, you know,
an effective team, it's like, why do
you want unhappy people on your team?
Why do you?
That doesn't make sense to me.
Granted, I'm not, you know, managing
a big corporate team, so I'm sure
that there are reasons there must
be, because it keeps happening.
Yeah.
I mean, I argue that I think it
keeps happening because people
imagine there isn't another way.
Lies.
It's lies.
There are so many other ways.
They're not all good ways,
but some of them are.
But a lot of them are better,
whether they're good on the
scale of whatever they're better.
So the other question I like to
ask is what are you grappling with?
I grapple with a lot of things.
One of the things that I'm grappling
with is I talk a lot about right
relationship, not just relational
fuckery, but because there's more than
just not doing the relational fuckery.
There's also the, Okay,
well what do we do instead?
And what does right relationship mean?
And a lot of my grappling with right
relationship is, I spend a lot of time,
thinking about my relationships with my
self and my work and other people, the
closest people to me and people with whom
I work and the people in the world and
what I want to see happen in the world.
And then there are other relationships
that tend to fall by the wayside for me,
that I don't give as much attention to,
like my relationship with my, my meat
suit, my body, like, um, my relationship
with the actual earth, like the soil
and the things that grow from it.
It's, a lot of what I grapple with is
I think my, my relationship with the
physical world, like in my body and my
body's relationship with the, the other
physical objects and bodies around it.
So, somebody recently called me a "Right
Relationship Expert" and I was like, "Oh
God, we're all going to be disappointed."
Cause I grapple a lot with
right relationship all the time.
Well, and I would say you're
a right relationship, striver.
I like that.
You know what I mean?
Like, like you've done a lot of
that work and a lot of, but from the
space of saying, how do we do this?
How do we get, how do we get
messy and how do we keep being
messy and in right relationship
and repair and what have you?"
So, yeah, the word I'm going
to say right now is "striver".
That's so much better than
what I was like, spelunker,
are you gonna say spelunker?
We'll get out our Thesaurus
and see what we can find.
But I think the idea of expert is
always, in some ways I find "expert"
paternalistic, where it allows me to
cede my responsibility to you to say, you
must know better than I do about this.
Right.
So whatever you say has to be right.
And then I turn
off my own capacity to be
in conversation about it.
Yeah.
And then of course, the first time
you try and live by my advice,
the betrayal will be so obvious.
Like, "Wait a minute, that
worked for you, but not for me."
Yeah.
I think that's one of the things that
I just love, and there will be links
to James-Olivia everywhere that they
exist on the internet, do not worry.
But your Instagram in particular
is always just sort of asking those
questions to say, Okay, how do
we, how do we do this in this way?
Well, that is our interview for today
because we could talk for hours and
hours, which we have in our lives.
So thank you for being with me.
Thank you for inviting me.
I had such a good time.
I wish that everybody else could
have been eavesdropping on the
pre-conversation because it was super fun.
Thank you.
If you'd like to dive deeper
with James-Olivia.
You have lots
of options, you can find them all.
And the full transcript of this
interview at 4needs.work/podcast.
But just to get you started,
I would recommend that
you follow James-Olivia
on Instagram.
If that is something that you do.
Their handle is
inquisitive _human and they
put out regular prompts to
really make you think about
the depth of your relationship.
So there are lots of other opportunities
as well, including a holiday edition
of Tension Holds Possibility,
which is a three Saturday workshop
that is co-presented with Nic Strack.
And
I will be there as well.
So I hope you can join me in that.
Thanks again.