Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Devin Bramhall [00:00:01]:
The very first thing when I tell people I'm writing a book, their first fucking question isn't, who's your publisher? It's like, oh, you're self-publishing. Like, this is fucking today.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:14]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:14]:
And I'm like, my dude.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:17]:
Ideas are not unique little special butterflies. However, we live in community and we share these ideas with each other. And that's why you can quote someone is if you like put quotes around it and give attribution. It's not plagiarizing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:32]:
I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:33]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:34]:
And this is Don't Say Content.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:36]:
A show created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:40]:
I need a massage. I need a lobotomy.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:43]:
I need like a new entire life.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:46]:
I need to like literally do the butterfly thing where I dissolve myself into goo and then reform into a new creature.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:55]:
That is correct. Correct.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:58]:
Working on it. I'm working on it. New phase for sure.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:01]:
What I've realized, what I've started doing. Because there are certain times in your life where you don't have choice. Where like you can't. Whatever circumstances are in front of you. You have to just keep going. And so my new approach is to build some of that serenity into my day to day life by remembering that I don't have to be perfect.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:26]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:26]:
And which is a me thing. That's just a. Oh. In the morning. Don't just go straight to work. Don't start. Just get on your computer. Like I intentionally.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:35]:
I have a list of things that I do and it's like been helping a lot. Just like, again, there's a lot of circumstantial things coming together that don't complement each other. And so it's like, okay, Devin, like you gotta keep going. It's in your best interest to do this. And so I made an executive decision. I'm going to Palm Springs for two weeks at the end of March to finish my book.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:03]:
I love that for you. A writing retreat.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:06]:
Yep. It's quiet. It's like I love Palm Springs twice. And it wasn't a place I ever cared about going to. And I only went because I had a. Like there was a friend there. And when I was thinking about where I might go, I was like, it's so quiet there.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:25]:
I've never been.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:27]:
Normally I like the beach more.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:29]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:29]:
But there's something about being out there that I remembered where it's like, there's like a base. There's like a solid base of quiet. And they have really cute dog, like restaurant and cafes I could literally order a meal for Henry. And they have the best cocktails. And they do have some really banging restaurants there.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:51]:
Which will be your little treat at the end of a long day of writing or editing or book process stuff.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:57]:
I want you to know that I sat down Sunday for 12 hours.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:03]:
Wow.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:04]:
I took one break in between. But, yeah, it's. We're down to the hardest part of it and also the part that needs the most executive functioning in my brain. Like, I've gotten it all out there and I know what the ideas are. It's. Now's the part where, like, how do you string it together in a way that makes sense?
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:27]:
Yeah. I always think that in any creative project, the last 10% actually takes, like, 80% of your time, right? It's like you get to the finish line and you're like, oh, I'm almost done. And it's like that last stretch is like, just keeps inching, it keeps expanding those last little bit. It's like literally the end of a football game. Not to do a sports analogy, because I'm terrible at sports analogies, but, you know, like, the last minute of a football game actually lasts 15 minutes. And you're like, what kind of time sorcery is this?
Devin Bramhall [00:04:02]:
Time sorcery. I love that. Wait, is there a way. I'm curious. Just because you engage in more visual art for play, Right. You do a lot of the written art as part of your job. I wonder, are there any parallels there to the process of creating something, whether it's a painting or a collage? I don't know what to call the thing that you do the other thing with the photos. So I call it what, Diana Cyana.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:31]:
Cyanotypes. Yeah, the color cyan. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:35]:
Oh, cyanotypes. Okay. Today I learned. So, yeah, I'm just curious. Are there any, like. Is there anything that, like, is similar or. I guess. Do you have any advice for me?
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:45]:
I think with, like, visual medium and art, I mean, all of those are different, Right. The cyanotypes. It's actually a lot of the prep work of the photography, the layouts, the whatever, the actual expression exposure. Once I have everything set and done, depending on the strength of the sun is a couple minutes maximum, and then it's done, right? And so then you rinse it and let it dry. But so that, to me, doesn't feel like as much tinkering at the end. Definitely, in the. When I was putting together the. The collection, the editing process of this one's in, this one's out took me a long Time to actually build it into a narrative in the collection. So that piece takes a while. But definitely in terms of painting, like oil painting, there's no answer to when it's actually done. So you just have to know when to stop before you mess it all up. And I've done that plenty of times where I've continued to work on an oil painting and actually get it so much farther away from, like, the good bit that it was at some point. So it's more about knowing when to stop there.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:49]:
Because I think in any creative practice, especially, like, with a whole darn book, it's like you could tinker with it forever.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:57]:
Yeah. My mom said almost the same thing to me about. Because she just wrote and published a book. And I was asking her advice the other day. Cause I was like, listen, I've set up all the right circumstances. I'm committed, right? I'm being good about following my own rules and processes so that I'm doing the work.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:18]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:19]:
And I said, it's just coming so slowly right now. So I was asking her advice, and she said to me, devin, there's just a point. I went in for this last sprint. I did these things, and then all of a sudden, I looked up and she said, I knew it was done. I knew it was done. She also told me that when I was. When I was describing a challenge I was having, she said, listen, Devin, just because you think something doesn't mean it's important. And I wrote that down.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:48]:
I was like, that is a great editing philosophy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:51]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:52]:
Is this important to you, the writer, or will this be important to the reader? Yeah, for some specific reason. Either it's compelling or it helps them understand it better.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:04]:
Yeah. Well, and I think that's an interesting distinction, too. Like, you were writing a business book to teach and to change, like, behaviors and change. Like you're doing it in more of a lesson format. I think there's also purely the creative medium of if it's important to me, it is important. You know what I mean? Like, in a. Let's say, a memoir or something like that, that it would be like, no, that's. I'm including that even if the reader doesn't care, because I need to, like, tell that piece of me, you know?
Devin Bramhall [00:07:35]:
Yeah. Actually, that brings up a really good point slash experience. Because in writing the book, I feel like I'm being forced, even harder than I've ever been before to practice what I preach. Because specifically around that part about making sure what I'm saying is important to the reader. And I'm saying it in a way that they understand, because one. One, I have to constantly check myself and say, devin, have they been in this situation before? Will this situation that you're describing be familiar to them? Or do you need to break it up a little more? Because there's a lot of my experience, it's extremely unique. I don't have. I'm like, oh, saying something that's basic.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:31]:
Like, something like me, like, oh, I. You know, I went to college when I was 16 in Hawaii. Other people are like, what?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:37]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:38]:
And so. But including with the instruction. I never really followed a playbook, parts of them. And so I actually sometimes have to remember what the playbook is to make sure that I can draw the right distinctions or similarities at any given moment. And honestly. Thank you. Correct.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:02]:
And yet I still check it every single time in a movie theater, you know, oh, I will, like. Like, I'll check to make sure my phone is on silent when they, like, do the little. Make sure your phone is silent, even though I know for a fact it's silent.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:15]:
You know what I thought you meant. Like, I check my phone during movies. I was like, that's off brand for you.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:21]:
I'm a rule follower, Devin. I would never.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:24]:
I. You know what? Now that you mention it, though, I do the same thing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:27]:
Yeah. I would never want to inconvenience someone.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:30]:
Oh, awful. How terrible. Selfish.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:35]:
That's something I'm working on, actually.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:37]:
I did say to my therapist yesterday, I was, like, saying that I did something I knew was wrong, and I was like, I know it's wrong, and I feel bad about doing something wrong, but I'm not sorry. And that is a new thing for me.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:54]:
Yeah, yeah, I heard this. I think it was Dr. Becky, who's, like, a parenting therapist, Instagram celebrity. She has some good stuff. And she was talking about this idea of, like, people saying, like, oh, I feel guilty because, like, I'm not going to go home this year to see my, like, parents for Christmas or something like that. And she was talking about, that's not actually guilt, because if you're operating from your set of, like, boundaries, it's an intolerance for other people's disappointment. But it's not actually guilt. Guilt is what you feel like when you operate outside of your set of values that, like, you know, that you believe in.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:33]:
And then you're like, oh, yeah, I messed up because I wasn't, like, in my value system. The other feeling is not actually guilt. The other feeling is an inability to handle other people's disappointment.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:43]:
I also think that guilt that you're describing because I definitely did something wrong.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:49]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:50]:
Operating on every set of values.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:52]:
This was not that. But that other guilt, I've always thought that was a complete waste of time. Because if you're going to make a decision on your own behalf and then decide to quote, like feel guilty about it, then you're ruining the whole reason of you making a decision on your own behalf in the first place.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:12]:
No, I know, but most people have been absolutely socialized to be people pleasers and put other people's emotions before their own.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:19]:
Another thing my mom always says to me is just because you get called to a fight doesn't mean you have to go. Yeah, And I think about that all the time in relation to other people's emotions. For me, actually, this might be a fun story to tell on the podcast because now I can tell like the whole thing. So I had a situation like this last week which was like, normally I would have been upset about it, but I thought it was so funny. I was like telling people it was like Internet goss about me. But it relates this idea of I chose not to go to a fight because I didn't feel like it and I was too busy. But basically somebody, I guess plagiarized a LinkedIn post of mine and I obviously never would have seen it because I don't know this person, but a good Samaritan messaged me, DM'd me on LinkedIn and said, hey, this one's pretty similar to yours that you posted last week.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:17]:
Yeah, beat for beat.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:21]:
This was so polite. This was a very polite message, very professional. Any insights?
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:27]:
Any insights?
Devin Bramhall [00:12:28]:
Like, didn't want to call anybody out was just like, I see you. I check LinkedIn, if I'm lucky, once every couple of days. So I hadn't seen it. I didn't know what the person was talking about. And when I went to the profile of the guy who had plagiarized me, the post was gone. So I only saw the screenshot, obviously, but by the time I got there, I think this good Samaritan must have also said something to the copier because by then he'd posted this like, bizarre, very bizarre apology. I went to go look, the post was no longer had been taken down and in replacement was a another post from him that said it started with I tried something new on LinkedIn and it worked, but I don't like how it feels. And he wrote, last week I read a post by Devin Bramhall on how marketers need to sell their strategies internally.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:31]:
You should follow her. She's great. I saw I got a ton of engagement. I agreed with her points. I thought the topic would resonate with my audience. So inspired by it, I went and wrote my own version of the post. But instead of starting from scratch on the same topic like I usually do, here's how I wrote it. I copied Devin's post.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:49]:
I threw it into a custom GPT trained on my own voice. I asked ChatGPT to write it like I would write it. I messed around with it a few times to add color and context. I made some hand edits of my own. I posted it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:02]:
And there was no attribution in the original post that it was your idea in the beginning.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:05]:
No.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:06]:
Yeah. Well, that's where you went wrong.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:08]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:10]:
Devin.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:11]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:12]:
How difficult is it to create content when you're also leading an entire dang company?
Devin Bramhall [00:14:22]:
It's really hard. You know what's hard about it, actually, is that you're not wanting the ideas for the content itself. Yeah. Because when I was running the agency, the mission and vision and values that I had set set were like the passion inside me and why we were existing. And so I was constantly having these ideas that I would share with the team to get them motivated, but that would have helped my brand reputation while I was running it. When I left Animals, I didn't have time to create content. And also when I left, I didn't think anyone knew who I was. I say this all the time.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:06]:
People are like, oh, my God, you ran Animals. I'm like, oh, my God, you knew. And now that I'm a solopreneur too, who's like, okay, I'm writing a book. I'm doing more than consulting now. I'm building some things and need to be out there among my people because everything I'm building is for them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:25]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:26]:
And I actually, like, have to. And it's hard. And so having the ability to record something and have that be immediately translatable into multiple different types of content is literally how I get by.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:44]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:45]:
Actually, it is quite literally the strategy in my book. I'm like the human centered, multimedia, AI-powered approach to content marketing. This is literally it. Because it's been my experience, it's like you need the media first to create that water of content flowing down river that AI can help you atomize, right? You're just using your own words.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:11]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:12]:
And the good news is that Share Your Genius has something called Content Catalyst that does exactly that. They take all the good stuff from Your execs in a number 90-minute session, and then they deliver to you video clips, social posts, full on articles, and it's all mapped to your strategy. Which is the most important thing about content creation is that it actually does something for you.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:37]:
And you know what's brilliant about that? Ever since I've been a marketer, I've gone to a new company and they've been like, should we start a podcast? And I've always been like, no, you're not gonna support, like, no, no, right? Whatever they want to do with media at first, unless it's part of my broader strategy, I'm like, no. Well, guess what? Now you can say yes to that. Whether it's a podcast, whether it's a video series, like, whatever it is. Because now you can make the case for doing more with that. Because they literally hand it to you.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:09]:
Yeah. It's like content facilitation instead of content creation. And I think the best part is you're not running around after your executives or your thought leaders about deadlines, about them actually creating it and getting it out the door, which is always the issue is do they actually have time to do the darn thing? So all you need is 90 minutes for them to sit on a call and then Share Your Genius does the damn thing and actually gives you all the content and you don't have to wait and have that bottleneck be your executives.
Devin Bramhall [00:17:41]:
Right. And think about, like, this came up a lot at Animals where it was like, trying to write thought leadership for other executives was something that a lot of people really wanted. And it was. It sometimes felt impossible to deliver. You could write something that's objectively good and the CEO would hate it. And I felt that firsthand, where it's like, it is hard to write for me because. And so this is literally taking their words.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:07]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:07]:
And so they're.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:08]:
You don't even have to learn their voice.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:10]:
Yep.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:11]:
You're just using their voice.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:13]:
And I need to tell you that it works. It works because it's working for me right now. I am the queen of, like, No, I hate that I'm the worst. Like, I'm my own worst enemy, right? Or everybody else's. Who knows? But when I see my words reflected back to me, I'm like, oh, yeah, I do believe that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:32]:
Man, you make me look good.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:36]:
I'll just. P.S. they can break this up probably into a million things. So. And P.S. we've been. They've been incubating this for a while, and we know because we're insiders and both Katie and Rachel have kind of presented iterations to us along the way and gotten our feedback. So we like, they built something that we believe in because we've seen it and now we get it.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:05]:
Now we get it from them too.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:08]:
So if you're interested in having share your genius do this Content Catalyst program for you, there's obviously a link in our show notes. You can reach out to them, let them know your good friends Margaret and Devin sent you.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:22]:
Yeah. And just remember, instead of it being a big investment, instead of you thinking about, oh, I have to hire an agency or I have to hire a person, you're literally like, this is efficient. This is efficient use of money because you're getting a lot for what you're ordering and you don't have to get it from lots of different places.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:42]:
And the cost savings is huge and sanity savings. Can't put a price on that.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:48]:
No way. No way.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:53]:
And so he said, I'm on LinkedIn all the time. I read thousands of posts per week. I've got a ton of hook and post templates from various coaches and training programs. I've written pros with tried and true formulas. Before, this didn't seem all that different, but I'd never written a quote quite this way before I posted it. I got a ton of engagement.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:15]:
You're welcome, sir. But looking back at the post side by side now, I'm realizing that I didn't change enough. I didn't have enough of my own voice and I didn't add enough new information to really make it that different from Devin's. I want to make sure she gets credit for the original idea. Bleh, dude, I took care of that myself. But thanks. If I go and make my other post a repost with my own thoughts, I would. Best I can do is take my version of the post down.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:42]:
It's hard to know where the line is on social media between homage and plagiarizing. Sometimes everything is a remix, especially when AI makes rewriting things so fast and easy. I don't think my post went quite so far as to call it stolen, but I don't think I spent enough time on it to really call it my own. I feel gross about it. So I won't be writing like that anymore.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:05]:
Well, and I think that the thing that's missed, and this is like the issue with this idea that everyone needs to be thought leaders and content creators and everything is just say that you thought that Devin's post was smart and you could like repost it. Or you could, like, say a couple words of your own, agreeing with it, and then tag the original. You know what I mean? Like, I think we've gotten so individualistic in this idea of thought leadership.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:35]:
I agree. Everything is a remix. Good ideas are had by lots of people at the same time. There's all of this theory of innovation stuff that, like, when the time comes for innovation, that sometimes the same people, like, across the entire world have the same idea at the same time, right? Like, yeah, ideas are not unique little special butterflies. However, we live in community and we share these ideas with each other. And that's why you can quote someone is if you, like, put quotes around it and give attribution. It's not plagiarizing, you know.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:08]:
Correct. And there's so much, like, underlying this.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:14]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:15]:
One, I have screenshots of the post and I will share them without showing the person, but it is quite literally identical. Like, it is formatted exactly the same way.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:27]:
Yeah, it is.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:28]:
What he's saying is like he's trying to change the narrative. It's like somebody clearly called him out because it's not like he had just done it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:37]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:38]:
And he's like, I need to get ahead of this.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:40]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:41]:
It's possible he is actually, sorry. But also in this situation, I have more influence than he does. And so the logical thinking is like, oh, no, if she finds out, she can blast me, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:54]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:55]:
But it is beat for beat. It is not like, oh, I liked her ideas. He. The actual formatting is identical the way the ideas are the same. And he's right. There's two ideas on there that are just like, everyone knows. In fact, my friend Brendan Hufford was like, the first two. Dev, like, we all know.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:16]:
It was a really funny comment. I was like, dude, you're right. But they were important context for the third thing. The third thing was, was the thing that everybody loved so much about my post.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:26]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:27]:
And that was mine.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:28]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:29]:
That was like, if you want to change your CEO's mind, make them do math.
Margaret Kelsey [00:23:34]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:35]:
And so, like, the way I phrase it in everything, like, again, didn't. There's other people who give similar advice, but the way I presented it, the whole thing, it was mine. And again, yeah, the post was copied. And the other thing is. And this is like something that I feel like I have to scream in the void a lot, which is that a lot of people have said they're inspired by an idea or me or something, but very rarely do they go out and say, devin's idea Was really brilliant. I'm inspired by it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:08]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:08]:
And there's a lot of other men around me who I see do get a lot of credit. People love to shout them out on LinkedIn. And it happens to me very rarely. And I don't care in the sense that I don't like it used to bug me before I had my own community.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:28]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:28]:
Before I really felt. Oh, but it happens all the time where it's like they'll tell me, especially men will tell me they like an idea of mine behind the scenes and then not credit me. And like Ronnie Higgins, he's a friend. He posted recently on LinkedIn. It was like Devin said this thing and I thought it like it was really smart and it aligns with my thinking. And then he expanded on his own thinking and I was like, do it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:58]:
Yeah, Queen.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:59]:
I love you, Jimmy. There was like a big like the whole problem. And then here's the worst part. So now I'm tagged in a post that clearly is self-serving.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:10]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:11]:
And I'm like, I don't want to give fucking attention to this. Also, I quite literally was busy. I was like, I am on calls back to back. I'm on deadline for my book and my client.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:19]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:20]:
And I was like, I don't want to join this fight, but fight. You know what I mean?
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:25]:
The conversation, the drama, that's not even a fight. It's just drama.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:28]:
Yeah. Internet goss kind of fun. So. But then other people, like one the initial comments where people are like, oh my gosh, you're such a good guy. And then there was a little hag, like someone at legit said something like about the fact that he plagiarized. He's like, but did I really plagiarize? I think that's a little harsh. And I saw all this, like after, right. Like I came late to the party.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:55]:
So like I was seeing all these conversations, like once they'd revealed themselves and I was like, oh, like you're using me again.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. Even by tagging me in this, you know, now tagging in this one now it's like.
Devin Bramhall [00:26:11]:
And guess what? He never apologized to me personally. There was no DM in my inbox until someone had commented and asked, have you apologized to Devin? And Aricia was like, I'm friends with her. And no, he hasn't. And so it just made it so icky.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:33]:
Yeah. The whole thing.
Devin Bramhall [00:26:34]:
People started tagging me and like this lovely woman, she was like, how does Devin feel about this? And I'm like, like, I don't want to give any attention. I don't want to give this more of a stage because this guy isn't sorry. And he already used me once and I don't want to let him use me again. Twice. Yeah. And so I like. But I didn't know what to. I honestly didn't know what to do because I also didn't want to be like that invisible.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:02]:
Like, I didn't want to let it slide. But, like, I didn't want to give any support to what he was doing. So I asked a couple friends. I was like, so do I have to deal with this or can I just, like, let this be fine? Like, you know? And they're like, we ride it, Dawn. Hold my beer. It was really sweet. It was very. It was very.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:31]:
It was very sweet. But then he took it down.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:35]:
He took that post down.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:36]:
Once people started actually acknowledging the upper of it and, like, calling him out, he took it down. This is a friend of mine he did that haggling with again. He's like, does Devin think I copied her? Like, I hope she doesn't, because I didn't or something. And I'm like, isn't that gross?
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:55]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:56]:
Like, you. How deluded do you have to be in your life to, like, think that? And so after, it's like, everything, all of his, like, acknowledgments happened for, like, after someone said something to him. Because then he sent me a DM and apologized and I was like, I don't. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not dealing with this, right? Like, I don't care about you. But it was so bizarre. That's what it was like. I wasn't mad.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:22]:
I was a little happy because it was really funny and I got to tell the story to a few of my friends. But I was like, it's just so weird seeing that psychology play out in real life where you're like, oh, are you? Hey. On like a scientific level.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:40]:
I think the inability to take full ownership and apologize is the most unfortunate thing to see fall on your sword. Just be like, yep, I tried something new. I looking at it now, it's way too close. I plagiarized. Won't happen again. Differently next time.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:58]:
If he DM'd me and said that. If he was like, hey, man, I did this fucked up thing. I'm really fucking sorry. Like, here's the screenshot. I took it down, you know, what can I do to make it right? Yeah, I would have been like, you already did.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:11]:
And we're good. Like, that would honestly have been the amount to which I even hoped. Wanted to deal with it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:17]:
I think we should teach in, like, elementary school what a proper apology is. And I don't know if we're doing that anymore, which is acknowledge what happened. You can try to mention how you imagine it made that other person feel. You tell them it's not going to happen again, and you explain the things you're going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. And that's an apology. Like, an apology is not I'm sorry, but let me explain to you how it happened and what my thinking was and blah, blah, blah, or I'm sorry, or this thing happened. But I'm not even gonna say I'm sorry. Like, describing the situation that happened without apologizing or saying how you're gonna do it differently next time or, like, calling it what it is not an apology.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:01]:
No. And it. It just reeked so hard because of the fakery that we actually see.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:10]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:10]:
Online of. He was trying. He was trying to appear sorry. And the thing is, I actually. When I saw it, I was like, oh, this actually seems genuine. But it's clear that he's so thrown off by it that he can't picture himself as a bat. As, like, doing something wrong.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:25]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:25]:
Right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:26]:
Sure.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:26]:
He's not a bad guy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:27]:
But, like, this is that stuck thinking of, if I acknowledge that I've done something wrong, I holistically am bad and wrong and whatever. And that's like, people. There's plenty of people that have a hard time doing that rather than being like, oh, of course I'm a human being. I can accept the fact that one wrong thing that I've done does not completely negate my worth and my value and my goodness, you know, and the.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:53]:
Freedom of owning up to it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:55]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:55]:
Like, the. What no one tells you, once you get used to this is like, when you can go to someone and be like, I fucked up.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:03]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:04]:
Like. And really, like, be brave enough to own it yourself. It is the most freeing thing in the world.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:11]:
Because then you stop hiding from yourself. You stop hating yourself secretly. You're like. Because what happens is if it's someone that you care about, you're able to work through it and keep them in your life. Lucky you, right? And then, two, you get to experience what forgiveness feels like, which. Huge bonus.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:27]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:27]:
But also, you're just. You feel more free.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:29]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:30]:
Or at least I do. I'm like, I don't know. And I think, like, look, there's this Thing that I feel like is the screaming into the void part of it that just keeps coming up for me over and over in my career, which is. This is really fucking gendered.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:44]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:45]:
Like, what this fucking motherfucker and is like, dumb whatever white boy ness is that I had to work so much fucking harder than he did to get everything. And you want to know what else happened? Last week I got advice from someone that was basically, like, at a place where I'm like, I have answered the most strategic questions in the world. Like, I was brilliant. And after presenting this brilliant idea and having a succinct answer to every question, the advice I got was about working with someone else. Well, you should just make. Set the calls for them, go do their work. Da, da, da. Do this, do that, and then on the call, make them the hero.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:36]:
Even though the things that we would have been presenting were my ideas, like, that still fucking happens to me today. You want to know the other thing? The very first thing, when I tell people I'm writing a book, their first fucking question isn't, who's your publisher? It's like, oh, you're self-publishing. Like, this is fucking today.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:57]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:58]:
And I'm like, my dude, like, even just to get here and even just to stay here and get credit for the stuff that I do I'm doing right now, that's like, genius. I have to still try so hard, and I have to have a conversation where I'm like, no, I don't do that work anymore. And also, what a horrible piece of business advice because I'm really fucking expensive by the hour because you're renting my brain, not my, like, ability to schedule meetings, which P.S. i'm terrible at, as you basically just recommended the company overspend on admin.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:41]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:42]:
Right? And it's like, that's the thing is that people don't realize is, like, the reason it's so frustrating. We're not like. And why it always feels, at least from a woman's perspective, you're screaming into the void. Because it's like everyone gets sick of hearing it. They get sick of it. They're like, stop blaming white men. Stop. And I'm like, well, then things need to change then, because I am still pushing a rock up a hill.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:04]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:05]:
Today after everything I've done. And, you know, even the part about I get credit for running animals from other people. But guess what? I got whitewashed from that company afterwards. And the two guys I worked with both got companies. You know what I mean? This isn't complaining. It is real, and it hurts people's lives.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:29]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:30]:
Like, the amount. The fact that I can barely. I have to, you know, work 247 just to get by with a Social Security check so I can have time to write this book. And, like, I am doing everything myself, and I am just like so many other women. I'm not. That doesn't make me special. That actually makes me like so many other fucking women out there. That's what this dumb guy doesn't get when he copies a LinkedIn post.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:56]:
I'm like, how about you fucking make somebody's day instead?
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:59]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:59]:
Because you. This is easier for you, no matter how hard you think it is, because you don't know what hard is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:04]:
Yeah. And thankfully, I'm not experiencing it in my work stuff right now, but I have that absolutely in spades in my personal life where I'm like, can you just acknowledge that I still am, but definitely was doing everything plus.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:20]:
And you think it's table stakes. Sorry. The other person. Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:23]:
And it's not even table stakes. It's invisible. It's required. It's mandated.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:29]:
That's, like, motherhood stuff right there too, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:31]:
Oh, motherhood radicalized the crap out of me.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:35]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:35]:
I do really think that in terms of, like, the relationships and marriage and stuff, I think feminism and partnership is palatable up until parenthood, and then the wheels fall off. Because I think we have taught women to live in the man's world, and we have not taught men what it looks like then to live in a traditionally feminine world. And so I think we raised a whole generation of women that are like, yeah, I'm gonna have a career, and I'm gonna have a family, and I'm gonna be able to do it all. And we did not teach men that they would need to have a different role than they're just gonna go have a career and come home and have everything taken care of for them. Like, we just missed the whole fact that in order for this partnership to work, we're gonna need the other half to do something differently, too.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:31]:
Yeah. And that's. You know, it's funny that you just made me realize, like, the two most demoralizing pieces of advice I ever got were from women. And it's like, I think there's this first generation.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:45]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:46]:
Of women who had to make it doing it the man's way.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:51]:
Yep.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:52]:
And that's still ingrained in them. And then it's this next generation. Like, my client, she's the opposite, right? Like, she is the Reason why I feel like it's worth working anymore. I just was like. I was at the point where I was like, I hate everyone. But she's like that next generation who's.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:12]:
No, it's not like everyone gets account held accountable the same. Everyone gets held accountable the same. And so it is. But it's interesting that you say that, because I do. I have twice spoken to women in power who I was like, really inspired by and been like, are you kidding me? Like, this is what you think?
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:36]:
This is what you have to do.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:38]:
Yeah. And there are also a lot of men around me, specifically white men. I think that I live in a bubble of men who are entrepreneurs, dads, husbands, and they're all of those things. And the way they. You know, like Jay Acinspiunzo, his wife has a big ass career.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:05]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:05]:
It's medical in some way. And I don't speak medical, so I forgot. I'm so sorry, Jay. But it's like he operates and he used to do a lot of speaking. He's talked about this before and he was like, okay, I'm a dad now. Like, I can't speak as much because he's. This is a two-way street.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:22]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:23]:
Right. Like Devin Reed and his wife Shani, like, they both created a brand together. They both have space.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:30]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:30]:
In this giant brand that they built together. Even though it's like literally called. What is it? Reed, Reeder, or something like it. There's a lot of Devin's name on it, but it doesn't he still provide. Gives that. Not gives it. I hate saying it like that, but like they feel like equals in it. I think that's like.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:49]:
That's so many men that I know. So it's. There's this weird thing where not all the forces are going in the right direction. It's more like a zigzag.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:57]:
Well, yeah. Forces are backsliding hard right now.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:01]:
Yeah. But anyway, the motherhood thing, really, I don't understand what that experiences, but it has been something that's reverberating.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:12]:
In. Around me more. Because all my friends started having babies in the last three years.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:17]:
I know it's one of those things with friends where I'm like, I love babies. I get so excited anytime somebody has a baby. And it's hard to really explain what's likely to happen. And not all relationships, but it takes tough conversations because I think it takes a rare man who had that lesson while he was growing up. Like his vision of his career and family life will look different probably than previous ones. You know? Anyways, I don't know what this episode is about.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:46]:
I love it. I think it's a great episode. We nailed it. Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you, as always, for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:55]:
We'll be back next week. And just remember, you're doing great. You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:01]:
30% of you are doing great. The rest, you gotta get your shit together. Come on.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:07]:
You know. You know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:09]:
You know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:11]:
You know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:11]:
See you next week.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:12]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:13]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:17]:
I thought you were gonna say I took one Adderall.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:19]:
Yeah, well, I take Adderall, but it's so that I can survive. I always tell people this. I'm like, Adderall doesn't, like, make me hyper. It calms me down.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:29]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:30]:
Yeah, I used to take it if I couldn't sleep through the night. I would take my daily dose of Adderall at, like, 4 in the morning, and I would pass out.