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A weekly show from the folks at East Lansing Info breaking down all the news and happenings in East Lansing, Michigan.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of East Lansing Insider. I'm East Lansing Info's deputy editor, Anna Liz Nichols, and today we're talking about two news stories that have had rapid developments in recent weeks that we haven't really gotten into in the podcast due to the rapid pace information has been coming out about the two stories. But now we're taking a moment to go over some of the details and timelines of the events. One story we're going to talk about is the events that led to East Lansing city manager Robert Bellman being put on leave following an accusation of harassment by a city employee. The other story we're going to lay out on the podcast this week is some of the recent developments in the case many in East Lansing have heard about where a young man named Isaiah Kirby was killed by police after he was suspected of repeatedly stabbing a local attorney.
Anna Liz Nichols:Our managing editor, Lucas Day, has done the bulk of reporting on the Isaiah Kirby case, so he's joining us today to share more about what we've learned about the parties involved and what's going on. So I guess we'll just jump right into what's been going on, Lucas.
Lucas Day:Well, Isaiah Kirby being the 21 year old Michigan State student who was shot and killed by police after he was suspected of stabbing a local attorney in an attack that's been described as random by the police. They said the two didn't know each other. There's been a lot of speculation that there is a mental health crisis on the experience of mental health crisis when this happened that has not been confirmed by the family. But, again, this was a kid who was 21 years old. He was a few weeks away from graduating from Michigan State.
Lucas Day:The family has said, and had a job interview in just a couple of days with the Austin Zoo. So by all accounts, this was somebody that was progressing in life as he would like to and then stabbed an attorney, was running in the direction of police. The development that happened, I think it was two two weeks ago now, maybe, yeah, about two weeks ago now, is that police released footage of what happened. And the start of the footage more or less shows what police described, which is Kirby is running in the direction of police. He's going near the bike not near the, bike lane.
Lucas Day:Police stop in the middle of the road in the direction that he's headed. They tell him to stop a few times. He continues to run at them. From the video, I think it's hard to tell if he would have went at police with a knife or if he would have continued to go straight down the road. They started shooting when he was approaching their police cars, so there's been a discrepancy about if he was running directly at the officer, if he was gonna continue going down the roads.
Lucas Day:But at that point, it really is a split second decision Yeah. For officers. Now where the controversy has come is what we didn't get from ELPD's releases or from the press conference is that Kirby was really shot in three different waves. So there was the first wave that I just described. This was many shots that you heard ring out.
Lucas Day:And then the second wave was three shots that came when he was on his knees. They they blurred out his face in this, so it makes it a little bit difficult to see. But it looks like he's holding a knife to his own throat. I wouldn't describe any of his actions as lunging or heading towards police when the second three shots come out. It looks like he's on his knees with a knife for his throat.
Lucas Day:These shots came several seconds after the first wave. After this, he he kind of collapses to the ground, and he's screaming. He then begins to crawl in the direction of officers, but he doesn't make he doesn't make it very shot very far. And then a third wave that was I can't remember the exact number of shots, but more than more than the second wave. Several shots ring out, and then, he's on the ground and barely moving at this point.
Lucas Day:And, there there have been concerns raised about the amount of time it took to render aid after this because they're still yelling at him to drop his knife, and it's unclear. I mean, he's been shot. It's impossible to tell how many shots hit him without the, you know, autopsy, obviously, but well over a dozen shots have been fired at this point. He's been hit several times. You don't know if he's even capable of responding in orders to drop his knife.
Lucas Day:They eventually go over and they use a, riot shield type of equipment to pry the knife away from him, and they render some aid, which again has been criticized by some people. And it's unclear, at least from the one of the questions that surfaced at a city council meeting was how long was it before actual paramedics responded. And the police are not providing specific incidents to this case right now because it's being investigated by MSP right now. But the chief of police to give the answer that policy is to wait until, scene is secured before the fire department's paramedics are on scene. So, that's about what we know right now.
Lucas Day:Could be more than a year before MSP completes its investigation into this incident. We did we've we've got a story up about the release of the footage that I I think it's good to read because it's got details in there. We did obtain some footage from the pizza restaurant that he, was reported to have stolen from before he stabbed the attorney. And that footage, it's it's it's kind of a he he's displaying erratic behavior, I think, I'd say. He poses as as a DoorDash driver.
Lucas Day:He comes in. When the employees ask him who he's picking up for, he just walks over to display with the pizza, and he just starts eating the pizza. He leaves, comes back in for a second, then leaves again. Then a third time, he comes back in, and he's confronted by an employee who's trying to he steps between him and the counter area. They kinda get nose to nose, and then other employees go behind, the Marco's Pizza employee.
Lucas Day:And then at that point, he turns around and leaves. I talked to that employee. He said that he did not see a knife. He he was concerned that, Kirby would become violent, which is why he called the police. He was the initial call, into ELPD.
Lucas Day:And what he told me that he saw was he he saw the incident with the attorney from across the street. He did not know that it was a stabbing. He said that it looked like it was somebody that was hitting somebody else from his perspective, and he later found out, about the stabbing.
Anna Liz Nichols:Yeah. Something important to note and and why we're not really saying much about the erratic behavior is one of the first questions media had, especially we we there was a press conference shortly before the release of all this footage, believe it was the same week, with with the family of Isaiah Kirby where they had their attorney, Teresa Kane Benguin, talking about some of the details of of the day according to the family. And one of the questions that was posed was this idea of what was the mental state of Isaiah at the time of the incident because it didn't sound and mind you, we didn't have this footage at the time, but none of this sounded like the same person that they had just described at that event, a kind 21 year old who had an interest in in reptiles that was gonna go work at a zoo, was days away from an important interview, days from graduation, I believe a week and some change away from their 20 birthday. It didn't make sense to media there why he would stab this attorney. And so it was sorry to con circle back, but it was asked what was was there a mental health crisis happening here?
Anna Liz Nichols:And the attorney for the family, Teresa Kane Bingman, said that there was no mental health crisis at the time. And so we're left with some questions, and there was, there was an advocate, in the room who, even after that was asked, asked, you know, given that this advocate works with people facing mental health crises, how she can keep her clients, how she can keep the people she serves safe. And, again, people speaking in room was like there's no mental health crisis. So we're left with with some questions because it does appear mind you, they they in the footage, they blur out his face, so it's kind of hard once you get to the face neck area to see what he's doing, but it really looks like and has been described by people at city council talking about this that he went to go slit his throat, but truly, like, it's obscured. We don't know definitively.
Anna Liz Nichols:And so we're left with with this encumbered footage with the family not getting all the pieces of evidence that they want with, you know, this investigation potentially taking a year plus. The public, the family, media are left with a lot of questions right now.
Lucas Day:Yeah. And I I think that the other kind piece that's kind of important to explain, and this is a little bit of inside baseball, but I I have gotten this question a few times as why does media keep using the word suspected of stabbing the local attorney. We have to use that word because we didn't see it. There's no footage of it. That's the word that ELPD is actually using in their press release after the incident.
Lucas Day:They said that that he was suspected of stabbing a local attorney or or a local man, something along those lines. Suspected is the LPD's word. No one's trying to cast doubt on the events before what happened. We're we're using the information that we're being given. In the police reports, they do show the 911 callers, and there is the question, did they stop the right guy?
Lucas Day:And the caller says yes. So there are witnesses to it. But there's no there's not footage of the actual stabbing at this point, which is why we're saying suspected of a stabbing. That's ELPD's word. I I just wanted to clear that up because I've gotten that question a few different times.
Anna Liz Nichols:And then, again, just to rewind because we we we're focused on the the Kirby component of this because there's so much we don't know. I will say that the local attorney, Douglas Milak, age 63, is recovering. This was and many in the East Lansing community have in every breath of the of the conversation we're having about police trustworthiness, police brutality with Kirby with with Isaiah Kirby, with so within the same sentence, a lot of people in the community are communicating how grateful they are that mister Milak is not a casualty of this situation.
Lucas Day:Right. And it's almost I mean, from the from the footage, because it does show them what rendering aid to him. It's almost I I don't wanna say hard to believe that he survived, but he it was really hard. It was hard to see them responding to him.
Anna Liz Nichols:It's terrible. There's I know we we don't we don't put opinions in this stuff, but anyone can see this footage. It is grotesque. It is awful. This story has had widespread community impact and raises questions of government transparency and use of force by police.
Anna Liz Nichols:On May 19 before the city council meeting, there was a crowd of people who marched from City Hall to the Hanna Community Center where city council meetings are held holding signs demanding justice for Isaiah Kirby and the removal of police chief Jen Brown. The expectation was like previous city council meetings that much of public comment was going to be dedicated to these calls for justice for Kirby. And it's not that that didn't happen during the May 19 city council meeting. It's that we were thrown into another narrative that demanded attention in the city.
Lucas Day:Yeah. So this meet this was the first city council meeting held after the footage of the Kirby shooting was was released. And so there was already a protest that was held before this meeting about something entirely different. The meeting room was full to the point where all the chairs were filled and people were standing up and spilled out of the room because they're there to talk about Kirby. And then the very first speaker at public comment, the room's divided between residents and staff members.
Lucas Day:The very first speaker stepped over from the staff side of the room, which was kind of a powerful visual because, staff doesn't speak during public comment very often. And she introduces herself as the grants coordinator, and then she leads with Robert Bellman sexually harassed me. And then she gets into in details other incidents that she described as verbal harassment, bullying, intimidation. And, just after that initial statement of he sexually harassed me, there were gasps throughout the room. Like, people were stunned.
Lucas Day:People were prepared for a meeting that carried a lot of weight, but they were not prepared for that. I think when people saw that a staff member, at least my thought was when I saw a staff member walk up there, was going to be someone that had worked with either the police chief or the city manager who was going to defend them. And so that that's just not what she got. And then she did detailed her accusations, which was that he gave her the nickname too easy. At first, she didn't know if he was doing it to, kind of undermine her intelligence or, through the sexual connotation, but then she described some different scenarios that he used it in or one scenario that he used in that made her feel like it was sexually charged.
Lucas Day:She described another incident where he said, he threatened her job and questioned why he had two different grant coordinators and the third one where, she said he was trying to intimidate her. That's where the quote that I think all media has been using. She said that he leaned in and whispered, I Trump everyone. And so the from there, the city council held a meet a special meeting on Thursday, that was not initially scheduled. People came and spoke, other than that attend essentially, the entire meeting was held in closed session.
Lucas Day:City council comes out of the closed session, and they vote to release the report. It's during that time that you're kinda getting mixed messages from the city council, which has raised some concern from residents and in the media. The mayor kind of gave a total endorsement of the city manager, said he was looking forward to working with him, said that he was glad that he could publicly state that the reports or that the allegations were unfounded. And I I I think it's important to make the distinction that unfounded is different than untrue. Like, it's hard to prove the conversations happened.
Lucas Day:So so right after the the mayor spoke, you heard from two other members of city council, Chuck Grigsby, who's the mayor pro tem, and council member Carrie Ebersol Singh. And they both said, if you've experienced bad behavior, please come forward. And people in the audience just started shouting at them at this point. They I think it was after the mayor gave that endorsement and said that he was glad that he considered that the allegations were unfounded that people who were then coming in and saying, if you've experienced bad behavior, come forward. Because when people in the audience, many of them work with survivors of, sexual abuse and workplace abuse, said people don't trust you anymore.
Lucas Day:Like, you can't have this endorsement at a meeting and then expect that your staff is gonna come forward because they they don't think that they're gonna be believed. So the next day after that Thursday meeting, they released the report on Friday. It does show that there was not evidence of her, allegations about sexual harassment and bullying. The report emailed both Bellman, Dizik Hernandez, and six other employees. I thought that the highlights and you did this reporting, you can get into this even more than I can.
Lucas Day:I thought that the highlights were essentially that people said that Bellman can be more stern with women. There's some perceived favoritism in the workplace. And, I mean, there's some real culture issues. Like, people thought that they were being talked to, in in a manner that you don't want to be in your workplace. I guess I'll leave it at that and let you get into what you read.
Anna Liz Nichols:So something important to preface this report is that Robert Bellman has been fired amid similar allegations in the past. He came to East Lansing after losing his employment at Saginaw County Controller amid allegations that he was abusive at work, that he created a toxic work environment. And, frankly, the report that came out this week, which mind you again, city council, the city of East Lansing has had since November. That means mayor Altman had this report that said and this is what the report said, that though the the the especially the the sexually explicit comments that Erica is accusing Robert Bellman of don't have witnesses that she's even a little confused what he intended by the too easy comments, stuff like that, that those don't have enough backing to them, witnesses, etcetera, to pose legal threat to the city. At the same time with all these interviews of other people in the city, other employees, there were employees that said that he talks to me like he's my dad.
Anna Liz Nichols:He raises his voice. There was several mentions of when he gets upset, when he gets emotional at work, he becomes someone who puts other people down with his his demeanor and tone. He interrogates. Mind you, there were there were two employees that said, you know, he's a a pleasure to work with. But there were a handful that said, you know, if he gets if you're not his he plays favorites.
Anna Liz Nichols:If you're not one of his favorites, he can really decimate you in conversation, especially when he's emotional. So at the same time, this report said all that, and the assessment from the attorneys that performed this investigation said, you know, should these these, interactions continue, the city could face a legal threat. And also added that there that there is a lack of trust and comfort within Bellman's leadership team. That is what Altman had in front of him when he said, I'm I'm proud to be able to release this. And that has caused some stir in the city.
Anna Liz Nichols:People take issue with that.
Lucas Day:Yeah. I think that the the part of the report that stuck out to me, which you described in your reporting, was that, one of the employees said I haven't heard him yell, but I can understand why people would think he's yelling in the way he talks to, you know, people sometimes. I think that we've all kind of been around, you know, like, bosses or teachers, other people like that that you get the visual of the behavior that they're describing. So, yeah, so between when the council voted to hire Robert Bellman in 2023 And when the vote actually came to approve a contract, Eli's founder and at the time lead reporter, Alice Drager, obtained some audio of the meeting at the Saginaw County Controller or the Saginaw County board meeting where Robert was actually fired. And there were several people who spoke in in favor of him so that he was professional, said that, you know, he was good for the county.
Lucas Day:Somebody said that they'd hire him again. And then the main the main concerns came from the IT department. The IT director, Josh Brown, said that he had been the reporting says he'd been at odds with Bellman for years, and he told the board, do have a bully sitting amongst you? Someone who harasses, belittles, and destroys confidence of everyone who come he comes in contact with? This person is Robert Bellman.
Lucas Day:He said that Bellman had called him a failure, called him useless, and told me he was not qualified to be a director. And then there are some other IT employees that spoke at that meeting. Brown's father, was a former union representative, spoke and said that it was affecting his son's mental health. And then there's someone from the medical examiner's office that, also spoke about concerns with Bellman. And I know those aren't the only people that had concerns.
Lucas Day:I've seen some other reporting where there are other names mentioned. But when I read the parts about favoritism, it does make me wonder if that's how different groups of people can get such different pictures painted. And, again, the the the report, it's kind of murky, I guess, I'd describe it in the way it's laid out. Besides Bell Bellman and Hernandez had only interviewed six employees, which I I think that for whatever they paid for this, I gotta foy out. For whatever this pay they paid for this, I'd hope that they could talk to some more people than that.
Lucas Day:Some of the employees like them. Some of them describe very serious problems. And even if something isn't, you know, a criminal issue or criminal, a policy violation even, You want to have a good workplace environment because as we saw in East Lansing just a few years ago, your directors leave, like, it causes real problems to city services. I actually talked with Robert about this about six months ago. Maybe it was more than six months ago, not that long ago, about all the problems that were created in East Lansing by the city's directors leaving.
Lucas Day:Like, projects were slowed down. Road projects were slowed down. It was harder to bring development in because that the the planning office was essentially empty. And so if you don't have a a good workplace workplace culture culture and environment, like, people are gonna leave. And so I I I I that is one of the concerns that I had after, reading the report.
Lucas Day:And, again, I'd like to see more perspectives than the six that they have in this, was if your workplace is is is if if the culture isn't good, then, even if you're not at risk of a lawsuit, are your are your directors gonna leave? Because you've got Michigan State next door. You got, the Capitol next door. Just just Meridian Township. There's just other places people can work if they want different jobs.
Anna Liz Nichols:And so another thing to note about this investigation is we we actually have the investigation report. So it's kind of a synopsis. Mind you, it's it's multiple pages. I believe it's 13 pages long, that includes things like quotes from from employees, quotes from involved parties, as well as recommendations for what these these attorneys who performed the investigation think the city should do. And I would say the main function of this investigation was to determine if the claims were true, if, Erica would have a case for for workplace harassment, that kind of stuff.
Anna Liz Nichols:But it also includes recommendations based off of what the other employees said about the work environment, and the investigators encouraged East Lansing leaders to address the perceptions of favoritism and some of the unprofessional conduct that employees described. They recommended that the city monitor the culture around Bellman, just what's going on. Is there a culture of of fear, intimidation, that kind of stuff? They recommended that Bellman receive leadership training. Yes.
Anna Liz Nichols:The investigation did not find backing to prove that to reaffirm Erica's claims, but they did find enough from employees to say, you know, there are some conditions, some some behaviors by Bellman that are conducive of future problems if they're allowed to persist.
Lucas Day:Right. And so after the report, we're doing this kind of in chronological order now. You fast forward to this Tuesday at city council, and, my belief was that this was kind of wrapped up. I I especially with the with the mayor's comments, I thought that the release of the investigation was gonna be good. Some people were gonna be upset.
Lucas Day:Some people were gonna be satisfied, but this was gonna be kind of wrapped up. You get to the meeting, and early on, they vote to amend the agenda and to add a closed session item at the end. So this was not on the city council agenda prior to the start of the meeting. They added this at the start of at the start. Closed session means they're gonna talk to their attorneys, and nobody's allowed to hear what they're saying.
Lucas Day:So some speak some people come and they speak during the meeting. They're calling for Bellman to be fired. I I thought the statement that was really good, but it came from Abby Teitaki who's on the school board, and she also works with MSU centers for for survivors. She was unable to go to the meeting because she has some work to do, but she sent her husband who wrote a statement from her. And the statement really described how she'd, experienced gender based harassment in the workplace, and it was unfounded because these things are hard to prove and how it affected her.
Lucas Day:I thought it I thought it was worth explaining because even, you know, if the report can't shed total light on what happened in this incident I I I thought that hers the statement that she had her husband, read kind of explained how it can look from an employee's perspective because we haven't been able to reach since her five minute comment. We haven't heard from her since she spoke last Tuesday. But at the end of the meeting, the city goes into or the city council goes into a closed session. They're gone for about ninety minutes, and I can tell if they're talking about Bellman or not because previously when they've done closed sessions, he's gone with them. The two that they've talked about him, he's been in the Hannah Center Room, where members of the public are, where city staff is.
Lucas Day:He hasn't followed them in there. So I know they're in there talking about him. They come out, and the mayor pro tem, Chuck Grigsby, reads a statement about a legal memorandum that was discussed during the closed session and now hiring a new law firm to answer questions that came out during the closed session. They're very. There's no mention of a report or allegations.
Lucas Day:In a vacuum, this you have no idea why he was put on leave. It's it's the it's the circumstances leading up to it that tells us what happened. So they put Robert on leave. They're now contracting with a different law firm to answer questions, and we don't know what the questions are. But today, which is Wednesday we're recording this, they they named interim fire chief John Newman as the acting city manager.
Lucas Day:So we don't know how long John Newman's gonna be city manager. Just from my experience, and Bellman appointed John Newman as city manager that was specified in the the mem or in the motion that was passed by the council that the city manager would appoint acting city manager. I think that's also spelled out in city policy. We don't know how long Newman's going to be the city manager, but just from my experience with him, I think that this was probably a good choice for the time. I know I'm not supposed to have opinions, but I I say that just because I think that he's an effective communicator.
Lucas Day:And I think that through this time period, what you need the most is someone who, just can communicate. Just watching his interactions with city staff, it seems like they like him. Again, I I don't know the inner workings of the city staff. I don't I'm at city hall all the time. It just seems like when council's in closed session or something like that and the room's empty, John is someone that people go over to talk to.
Lucas Day:And then also in the in the limited interactions that I've had, he's been very excited to talk about his firefighters. You can tell that's he he likes to talk about his employees. So that's where we're at right now.