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The "No BS" version of how startups are really built, taught by actual startup Founders who have lived through all of it. Hosts Wil Schroter and Ryan Rutan talk candidly about the intense struggles Founders face both personally and professionally as they try to turn their idea into something that will change the world.
Welcome back to another episode
of the Startup Therapy podcast.
This is Ryan Rutan, joined
as always by my friend,
the founder and CEO of
Startups.com, Will Schroeder.
Will, the founder
journey is like one long
accidental apprenticeship
in becoming someone you
never thought you could be.
You start a company thinking
you're building a product.
You suddenly, you're learning
finance, sales, hiring,
design, legal, and apparently
whether you might be a secret
world-class backup dancer,
but we'll get to that later.
Will, is, is becoming
a founder the ultimate
unlock for discovering what
we're actually capable of?
Yeah.
Here's the fascinating about it.
Like, my opinion of myself
and my future going into life-
was so incredibly low.
And I, I was like a
fairly confident kid.
It wasn't that.
Yeah.
It's just, like, my life
circumstance did not have a
trajectory that, that was going
up and to the right, right?
Like- Pretty
sure
…
it was going to peak at
flatline, and then almost
certainly- Right … like,
bomb from there, right?
Yeah, with, with
some possible dips.
Yeah.
With some possible dips.
And when I look back at that,
you know, kind of baseline
moment, and then all the things
that happened in my life since
then, it's impossible for me
not to look back and say, "How
the hell did this happen?" And
when I say that- Yeah … I
mean, like, how did I become
the person I am today- Yeah,
yeah
if not for being a founder?
If not for being a founder,
none of what made me, me
would have ever been put
to the test to make me, me.
It's an amazing culture.
Yeah.
Founders don't just
build companies.
Right.
Companies build founders, right?
That's a great way to put
it.
If I go back in time, man,
I can… Like, my startups
forced me into rooms that
my old identities, even the
identity at the time- Yeah
would've avoided forever.
Yep.
Like, it, it never, never
would've crossed those lines.
Never would've done some
of those things because
I wouldn't have had to.
It held me to do so.
And here's what's fascinating
to me, and I think this is
the genesis of what we're
gonna talk about today.
What if we hadn't been
put in this position?
And I look at this all the time.
This fascinates me.
What if the people who've done
the greatest things, whether
they're, they're musicians
or entrepreneurs- Yeah … or
whatever, were never put
in that position to become
who they were meant to be.
What if?
Yeah.
I'll give you an example,
just kind of moment in time.
So I'm, like, 26 years
old, give or take, right?
And I remember
thinking about this.
I, I, I remember where I was
sitting and how I was thinking
about it, and I'm like,
"Shit, man." Like, I'm the
CEO of a company right now.
At the time- Wow … we
had like 200 people.
And I'm like, "How did
this happen?" I mean,
it happened so fast.
So a part of it was me actually
being like, "Shit, literally
how did this happen?" But the
other side of it was like,
"I'm actually pretty good at
this." But there is no way
in any world whatsoever that
anyone- Right … would've
recruited me to this job.
Yeah.
Right.
If it weren't for the fact that-
Yep … I created the job, this
would have n- I would've never
been given this opportunity.
Yeah.
And by way of that, I'd have
never really been able to
see what I was capable of.
Yeah, because I think as,
as, as humans, we generally
confuse I've never done
that with I can't do that.
Right?
And I think- 100% … I
think being a founder forces
you right out of that.
It gives us permission to
become weirdly competent
at things that we had no
business attempting, right?
Like just- Right, right
… absolutely no business.
You do not have entry to
this room, sir. Well, well-
And yet I'm here … y-
and y- and yet I'm here, and
that fascinates me because we
get into this, this question
that, that I think founders
should be asking themselves
that we'll explore a lot today.
What if I am capable of
something so much more
extraordinary, by the way- Yeah
in any aspect of life, right?
Yes.
I'm not specifically just
talking about being a founder.
That is, like- Yep … one role.
But if I could do this, how many
other things could I do that for
whatever reason I was just never
given the opportunity to do?
Yep.
By the way, including
being a founder.
Yeah, yeah.
I think a lot of people go
into this, and they have this
imposter syndrome that, "Oh,
I could never be a founder."
Are you sure?
Right.
Like, 'cause everyone
else that said it had to
do it for the first time.
There was no internship
to being a founder, right?
Right.
You're either founder
and CEO, or you're not
employed there at, at all.
The
founder role is the
internship, right?
Correct, right?
As I got into that, uh, into
building company, and you,
you did the same thing, I got
into this place where all of a
sudden I was like, "Shit, I have
to do this other stuff too."
Yeah.
And, and, and here's the one
that I remember most closely.
I remember when I was first
getting started, I'm, like,
19, 20 years old, like, as
I'm building the company,
and I have to do finance.
To set the picture, this
is, this goes back to my
early flatline in life.
In freshman year of high
school, freshman year, I
had to take Miss Chesney's,
um, Algebra 1, right?
This is like- Yep … basic,
basic algebra To this day,
40 years later, I have
never passed that class.
Okay?
So here's what happened.
I took it, I failed it.
This, and this is my
confidence in math.
I just wanna, like, set
the stage here, right?
I took it, I failed it,
I went to summer school.
Took it aga- I failed
in summer school.
I failed again in sophomore.
I failed again in summer
school the next year.
I failed again.
I mean, I literally failed
it every single time to the
point when I got to college.
Do you know, like, you know
there's a 100 level course?
Do you know- Yes … there's
an 050 level course?
I did not.
Before you get to 075,
by the way, 050 is, like,
next level remedial, right?
Oh, wow.
And it's for people who didn't
make it past the freshman
year of- Yeah … of algebra.
Now, I just wanna set
the tone there, right?
Ryan, you've worked with
me for a very long time.
Yeah.
I've seen you do algebra.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So clearly, I, clearly I
understand numbers, right?
But something really fascinating
happened in the early, early
stages of, uh, of my career.
All of a sudden, I had to
put dollar signs in front
of those numbers, and more
importantly, those numbers
reflected the amount of
money in my wallet, right?
Yeah.
Or whether or not I
could eat or make-
Yeah … payroll, et cetera.
Yep.
And all of a sudden, when the
same numbers had new context-
Yeah
…
I was like Rain
Man with numbers.
Context goes so far.
Just briefly,
I sucked at math, but I was
very- Yeah … good at finance.
Yeah.
Speaking of dollar signs
in front of stuff, just a,
a funny little aside here.
So during my university
career, I took calculus,
and I- Mm-hmm … took the
business version of calculus.
And so I went through
that, and it had a lot
of dollar signs in it.
When I decided after selling
company two that I wanted to
go back to medical school and
do the thing that I had thought
I would do from the time I
was quite young, I had a bunch
of science requirements that
I had to go back and take,
and they're like, "Okay, so
you're gonna have to take
biology and physics," and I
was like, "Okay, of course,
of course," and then, "And
you'll have to take calculus."
I was like, "Nope, I already
got that." And they're like,
"You had business calculus."
I'm like- … "Excuse me,
sir-" You had bank calculus
… "what's the difference?" And
really, I got them basically
to admit, they're like, "Well,
we're gonna change dollars to
grams, and that's basically
it." I'm like, "Okay, cool."
Right.
I look at this and I say-
Given that trajectory,
and this is multifaceted.
Number one, that I hated math.
Yeah.
Okay?
I still do.
Number two, that finance to me
was this mythical thing that-
Yeah
…
only magicians could perform.
Right?
And I didn't understand it.
It's the way f- most people
feel about their taxes.
Yeah.
They think about this
tax, this- They said
the F of X and my eyes crossed.
Yeah, exactly, right?
And so, like, a lot of people
look at taxes, and they think
of it as this really scary,
like, monolithic thing that
they couldn't possibly get past.
Uh-huh.
And the reality is they're not
complicated at all, but there's
a whole industry that, you know,
that helps you think otherwise.
Anyway, one day, we, as we're,
we're growing the agency, we had
merged two agencies, our digital
agency and a traditional agency.
Well, the traditional agency,
which was a little bit
bigger, had a full-time CFO.
Yeah.
And this guy hated
my guts, right?
Because I would sit there,
Ryan, in every meeting and be
like, "Yeah, but what about
this? Or why does this work
this way? Or why does this
work this way?" Yeah, yeah.
He like- And he thought
I was questioning him.
Yeah.
Which in retrospect,
maybe I was.
You're
like, "I'm just trying
to get to 100. I, I did
050. I'm trying to…"
Yeah, e- exactly.
But here's what, here's
where it got interesting.
Because I was a
s- total neophyte.
Uh-huh.
But I was so ambitious about
what- Yeah … what I wanted
the outcome to be, like how I
wanted those numbers to suit me.
I asked really dumb questions
that weren't dumb questions.
Things like- Right,
no, fundamental questions.
Yeah
…
why do we give our clients
30 days to pay us then?
He's
like, "Well, that's just
the, the way the industry
works, and then those are
called net terms." And I'm
like, "Why don't I just not
put those on the invoice?"
What, yeah, what if we didn't?
What if they paid us now?
Yeah, exactly, or
ahead of time, right?
I was like, I was like- You're
the finance guy.
Yeah.
Explain to me the difference
between zero and 30 in terms
of time value of money.
I was like, well, because
the whole thing is we were
growing so fast that we weren't
making money fast enough to
hire all these new people.
Yes.
Yeah, it's, the agency
conundrum always.
And we had, and f- folks that,
that understand this business
well know that, that you've
got your receivables in, uh,
invoices you sent out, but
you also have what we called
work in progress, which is-
Yeah
…
this is stuff we're
still working on.
We haven't even
sent a bill for yet.
Yeah,
yeah.
But I still gotta pay dude
by Friday, right, for that
time- Yeah … regardless of
whether it's work in progress.
Uh,
where are our paychecks?
Oh, they're also
work in progress.
Work in progress.
That doesn't work at all.
I come into this thing called
finance as a total neophyte,
but- Yeah … someone that w-
turned out to be pretty good
at solving problems, right?
Yeah.
And I was like, "Well, what
about this? What about this?"
And really, like, overhauled
a lot of the approach, right?
And it served me well.
And as you would know,
because, you know, for as
long as you've known me,
I've been a startup CFO.
Yes.
Like, I'm, I, I- Right … I
tell people I'm also secretly
the CFO of, of Startups.com.
But it's a job I
take very seriously.
Yeah.
And, like, uh-
Well, it's a good one
to take seriously.
Yeah, yeah.
But, but I mean, like,
I'm passionate about it.
Well, it's the thing,
it's like in freshman year
algebra, you don't really
have any skin in the game.
Okay, you can argue that, like,
"Well, but then your future
is based on your grades."
Yeah, no, it's not.
It's absolutely not.
Uh, and argue all you want.
But the minute it, you all
of a sudden have the skin in
the game, right, where this
is literally cash flow that
you're depending on, all of a
sudden everything becomes a,
a very different story, right?
The context in that situation
is what then drives us to
needing to do that, right?
Because, look, as founders,
we're forced into becoming
whatever the company needs next.
That's the point.
Right?
Which has value.
The job description is
basically become the person
this problem requires.
Correct.
Right?
Right.
Think about that for
a second, though.
Like, I think people go
begrudgingly into those paths
like, "Oh my God, I gotta
learn finance," or, "I've
gotta learn marketing"- Yeah
or, "I've gotta learn design,"
or, "I've gotta learn, uh,
programming." And I look
at it a different way.
I'm like, what if you're
really good at it?
And everyone says-
Yeah … the same thing.
"Well, I'm not."
How do you know?
Have you attempted
to become proficient?
Or have you- Yeah … tried it
and immediately agree that you
just don't know how to do it?
Which is, by the way- Yeah
… applies to every single thing
you didn't know how to do.
Yes.
Right?
Like, I just happen to know
how to ice skate, but it
wouldn't be like just because
I wanted to do it, it would
just magically happen.
Like, I'd put on a pair
of- Correct … skates
and start skating.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
But clearly I, I'm
capable of doing it.
Yeah.
I just haven't done it yet.
Something I even- Yes … try
to impart on my kids, I'm
like, "You can do nearly
anything, you just haven't yet."
Yeah, 'cause y- we, we all
go through that, right?
It's like startup life
turns like, "I'm not that
kind of person," into, "I
guess I am now." Right?
Yeah.
It, it happens all the time
because we're forced into doing
it, and I think that's, that's,
it is an important part of it.
Another founder I know that,
that's actually had a really
interesting career where he's
had proficiency in a whole
bunch of categories, like
very disparate things, told
me something a long time ago.
He said, "I only need to get
to 80% proficiency to be- Yeah
… 100% at good at the things
that I need to do with it."
Which I thought was a genius
reckoning because you look at
that and you say, "If I wanna
learn photography, I don't-
Yeah … have to be the best
photographer. I don't have to
have the best details." Yep.
"But if I can get to 80%, if
I can be a B+ photographer-
Yeah
…
there's no photos I can't
take at that point that's
gonna affect me whatsoever.
Now, will it put me on the
cover of whatever magazine?
It will not.
But I don't need-
No … to be on the cover
of whatever magazine.
Don't need to be on the cover.
I just need to take- Yep
… dope Instagram photos, right?
Yep.
Yeah, exactly.
That's all I gotta do.
It's like I, I don't have to
be Wolfgang Puck for my kids
to enjoy the shit out of dinner
every night and tell me, "Daddy,
you should have a restaurant."
That's, that's, that's
what I'm saying.
I go, "Definitely not."
Right.
Don't want them.
As I was growing up in the
startup world, particularly
with the agency, the agency was
a phenomenal gauntlet for me-
Mm-hmm
…
to be able to force my hand
at creative, which turned out
to be very important to me.
Technical, so programming, uh,
and pr- and product development.
Sales, which is, you know,
a critical part of get- Yeah
… getting deals in the door.
Marketing, which is
literally what we did, right?
And then stuff people
wouldn't expect, like legal.
Yeah.
Right?
You know, R- Ryan, you worked
side by side with me on
lots of our acquisitions.
I'm not afraid of legal.
Lots of red
lining.
Right?
Yeah.
Like, in the mix.
I'm, uh, side by side w- with
our counsel saying, "This
is- Yep … exactly what
the, things you do." I argue
provisions with them like I'm-
Yep
…
I'm by no means an attorney, but
I definitely understand legal.
But that's the point, right?
You don't learn finance
because you love spreadsheets.
Right?
You learn finance because
if you don't, payroll dies,
pricing breaks, and investors
eat you alive, right?
Right.
This is why, right?
It's not like you're passionate
about legal necessarily.
I mean, look, it could
be, but passion isn't the,
the starting point, right?
Right.
Sometimes it's just
necessity, which then becomes
this doorway to mastery.
Which
is powerful.
Um, which I think is amazing.
Yeah.
Let's build on that.
So all of a sudden, I realize
that I have to be good and-
Yeah … genuinely proficient
at a whole bunch of things
because I'm building-
Yep … a web design agency.
And, and within- Yes … the
agency, you built the
same thing, so I'm, I'm
telling you what- Yep
you already know, but
for folks listening.
You have to be
meaningfully proficient
at at least four things.
This is, again, web
design back in the day.
You have to be able to sell.
Like, I don't wanna
undersell that one enough.
You have to be very good at
sales in any professional
services if you're gonna
grow that business, right?
Yeah.
And there's a absolutely an art
and an ability to doing that.
Back then, you had to be
good at, at programming
because- Yeah … like, for
one, there weren't that many
programmers out there, right?
You know, what we call it-
I had to cultivate
several, right?
Yeah.
It was like I just found
kids who were smart, and
it was like, all right, so-
Or you had to learn
it
I'm gonna teach you something
called HTML and JavaScript.
And they're like, "What's this?"
Exactly, right?
Like, you had to learn it.
The next thing is you
had to learn design.
You know, back then it was just
Photoshop, but, like, you had
to understand the principles
of design, et cetera, which
is a very different skill
set, as many people will tell
you, than engineering, right?
And programming.
Yep.
And then the third is you
had to learn marketing.
So web design was
very new, right?
Like, so you had to
understand all the other
aspects of marketing.
You understand print design,
you had to understand
billboards, you know- Yep
… outdoor media, et cetera.
And so I found that that moment
in time to be, like, the perfect
cauldron For me to f- force
myself into learning everything.
So I'm picking up HTML, which
sounds stupid now, but that
was a big deal back then.
As fast as I'm picking up,
it was Photoshop 2.0, I
remember it had just come
out with Photoshop 2.0.
Yeah.
As fast as I'm learning the
fundamentals of marketing.
Yeah.
And it turned out I
really loved all of them.
Yeah.
Right?
But you never would've
understood that, or you would've
had no way of knowing, right?
And, and part of it is, like,
so for me, part of it was,
it was that I, individually
I'm not sure I would've loved
them in the same way, but
I loved the fact that they
were the system that the
business ran on top of, right?
Yeah.
That they were the
ingredients, right?
Like, maybe I don't really
love white flour, but, like, I
do like to make cakes, right?
Yep.
And so, like, at the end,
because it ends up being this
system, it was super fun to
then, like, know that I had the
ability to manipulate the levers
that controlled the outcomes
within the business, right?
Yep.
And it was super empowering.
Here's where it got really
interesting, and I wanna
present this to folks listening
as maybe a little bit of a
carrot to why to double down
on some of these things.
Yeah,
yeah.
All of a sudden, the
cross-pollination of
these skills got me
to a different level.
Yep.
Specifically sales and finance.
Uh-huh.
Two worlds that are usually
so far from each other.
Yep.
Right?
Unless you're in,
in Wall Street.
But h- here's what it was.
Back when we were doing
acquisitions, remember I was,
I moved to San Francisco and
I'm meeting- Yeah … with all
these companies, et cetera?
I could do this
really- Yeah, the, the
three years we didn't sleep?
Yeah.
I could do this really fun
trick where I could be in a
pitch meeting where I'm talking
to a company who, who I wanna
acquire, but as I'm talking
and selling, I'm also running
every financial pro forma in
my head- Yep … as to whatever
they just said, I already have
in my head the modeling- Yep
… of h- what that's gonna look
like.
Yeah, you build the financial
model based on the discussion.
Yeah.
Correct.
So, so when they're like,
"Oh yeah, but, you know, we
have a receivables issue,"
or our LTV is whatever.
Yeah.
I know exactly what that means.
Now, not just for their
business- Right … but
specifically where that's
gonna fit into our business,
because I also run our pro
forma financials, right?
And do all of our modeling.
Yep.
So as I'm selling, right,
you know, using that skill
that I had developed, I also
can simultaneously do that.
Same thing works in a,
in an investor pitch.
The investor's like, "Well,
what about this as it
relates to marketing?" Yeah.
I don't have to, like, turn
to the marketing team and
ask them how marketing works.
Yeah.
Or if they ask us about
technology, I don't have to
turn to the technology team.
I'm like- Yeah … "Well, this
is how we would do it." Right?
Now, I'm not saying I have
100% of command of all those
things, but I'm never asked to.
Yeah, when you get into the
20%, then that's where the,
the specialist comes into play.
Here's the other side, and
I think you'll appreciate
this one the most, 'cause
no one talks about this.
Knowing 80% of every skill means
no one can bullshit you anymore.
I love it.
Right?
I absolutely love it.
I love when I can just kind
of sit back and let somebody
think that they're talking
over my head, and then just
push back on it a little
bit and just watch the look
on their face when they're
like, "Oh, shit, he knows."
Yeah.
Like, he might not
know as much as I do.
He's up.
But he definitely knows enough
that I can't, just can't
talk circles around him.
Like, it's like walking onto
a car lot as somebody who's,
like, a complete gearhead,
knows everything- Yep … versus
just, like, I don't know, my mom
walking onto a car lot, right?
Where they're just
gonna be like, just
run her over the coals.
And…
You know, it's funny
you should say that.
So this actually, I
can't believe I, I, I
always forget about this.
So I ran a company
called swapalease.com.
I- Yeah … obviously you
know that, but I'm saying for,
for folks in the audience.
And it was a, a, a large
lease assumption marketplace,
still around today, I think.
Early back then, I
wrote a book about how
car leases work, right?
It was called Lease Advisor.
Yeah.
Right?
And so people didn't
understand leases.
They still don't
understand them today.
Yeah.
Like what a lease factor
is and things like that.
And as a piece of
marketing material, I
wrote a full book- Sure
about, like, how to shop
for the perfect lease.
Like, it was just a-
Yeah … compendium
to what we were doing.
Not a year goes by where I don't
find myself on a car lot, right?
Like buying a car-
Yeah … for someone in my
family or whatever, right?
Yeah.
Where I wind up in
the finance department
across from the guy- Yep
what they call the F&I guy.
He's trying to school
me about how- Yeah, yeah
… monthly payments work.
Right?
And to your point,
it's the equivalent of
someone, uh, speaking
Spanish in front of you.
Yeah.
Assuming you don't know,
understand a word they say.
That I have no
idea, yep.
Yep.
And then you parrot it
back in perfect Spanish.
Yeah.
And like, "Oh, huh." Like,
"
Uh-oh-
Yeah
…
what else did we say while
he was standing here?"
And I, I always politely say,
like, I was like, "Before you
get too far into it, I ran a
company that specifically does
automotive leasing." Yeah.
Right?
I literally wrote
a book on this.
Uh-huh.
Like, I understand
finance pretty well.
Spare us both.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And every time that happens,
Ryan, they're just like, throw
the pitch out the window.
They're like, "Oh, let's
move to the end." Yeah.
Yeah, let's just, yeah.
We can, we can start
signing stuff now.
Let's fast-forward the
part where you try to pull
the wool over my eyes.
But that example has served
me so well in building
startups because in every
case I can be like, "Oh,
that's gonna take 30 days."
No, it's not, right?
No.
No, it's not.
It's not.
Yeah.
Like, I can tell right away,
like, when, when, you know, I'm
being bullshitted, whatever.
This typically costs…
No, it doesn't.
Nope.
Nope.
Yeah.
No, it doesn't, right?
I think having that ability,
which by the way, is
forged with time, there's
no natural ability that I
have- It, it, that's super
important 'cause I, uh, all
the founders who are listening
to this right now, this
doesn't mean you have to have,
you don't have to be this
Swiss Army knife compendium
of knowledge who knows all
the things when you come in.
No, no, you don't have to arrive
with the complete skill set.
Nobody does.
Right.
You just need to arrive
with a willingness to be
embarrassed repeatedly
while learning at gunpoint.
And now you get embarrassed
in private because you
can do it with Claude.
Oh, man.
With an LLM, you can do
it with any kind of AI.
Yeah.
You can basically ask the dumb
questions in front of them.
Yep.
Holy shit, like, w- what that
would've done for me back then.
But I would say even now,
what it does for me today-
Sure
…
right, is extraordinary.
Yeah.
There's still things
we don't know.
Not many.
To say the least.
To say the least.
And so I always get into this
interesting, uh, situation,
this, this kind of thought
exercise where I think to
myself, "What if I hadn't
been put in that position?
What if I hadn't- Sure
… had to learn finance?
Or what if I hadn't had to learn
design?" Like, what would've
ever given me the opportunity
to put that to the test?
I mean, human potential
is wildly dependent
on exposure, right?
Unbelievable.
A small change in
environment, timing, parent,
mentor, opportunity can
determine whether somebody
becomes world-class or
never discovers they even
have the talent, right?
Which is insane,
but absolutely true.
Years and years ago, in like
the mid-2000s, for a half
second I was on the board of
the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.
Yeah.
Like a half second.
And- Is it because you
can shred guitar well?
Yeah.
One of my many things
I cannot do, but maybe-
You sure?
I can see one in the
background of the video.
Are you sure-
That is
true … you can't shred
guitar?
Literally, for folks that
don't see this on video,
there is a guitar behind me.
It has been turned on,
meaning like, 'cause it's an
electric guitar, like twice.
I like that you said
turned on because you
don't actually turn on the
guitar.
No, I agree.
Yeah, exa- exactly.
That's my point, right?
That's my point.
Um- Case in point.
All
right.
Yeah, exactly.
So anyway, I'm on the board.
The, the, the fact
that I'm on the board
isn't really the point.
The point is that as part of
your being on the board, they
give you tickets to the private
induction ceremonies- Uh-huh
… of the people who get into
the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.
Wild, man.
I-
it is incredible.
Me and, me and Sarah, every
time we went to one of these
things was like, "What are
we doing here?" Like w- like
there's 200 people at, at the
event- Yeah … and us, right?
We're not supposed
to be… We're them.
We're not
them.
Anyway, so, so point is
Metallica's getting inducted,
and Lars Ulrich, uh, the
drummer, gets up there,
and his family is right
in front of him, right?
And he's speaking
directly to his family.
And by the way, this is so
random 'cause I've been telling
this story for, like, 20 years.
I just found out- Maybe
three weeks ago, Ryan,
that what I'm about to
talk about is on YouTube.
Like, his- No way.
This was on YouTube.
Like, uh- Oh, wow … they were
recording it, which makes it-
Okay
right?
I don't remember cameras being
there, but, uh, whatever.
But, so what I'm about
to say, like, isn't
me just making it up.
Like, I actually re-watched it.
I didn't even know this
existed on YouTube, but- I
believe you, Will.
It's
okay.
Yeah, yeah.
I, I, I wasn't sure.
Anyway-
I'm gonna snag this
…
so, uh, Lars Ulrich gets up
there, you know, one of the
greatest heavy metal drummers
of all time, and, uh, he's
talking to his parents.
And he said, "Mom and Dad,
like, the reason that I'm up
here is because of you." Right?
Yeah.
Like, you let a kid…
Y- you're always playing
music in the house.
R- Ryan, that always
reminds me of your home.
You were always playing music in
the house, and because of that,
like, I always felt comfortable
to, to be who I was going to be.
And I always- Imagine
… pause at that moment.
I even said this to Sarah when
this, when he was saying this.
I was like, "What if?" Yeah.
"What if that fucking guy had
two parents who were hardcore
accountants?" He grew up
in- Yeah … San Francisco.
N- not unlikely, right?
Yeah.
And, and all they pushed
him to do was more math.
Yeah, they were like, "Can
I have drumsticks?" "How
about two, uh, mechanical
pencils?" "Basically.
Is that okay?"
Right, like and, and for
those of you that know what
Ulz Ur- Lars Ulrich looks
like, Ryan, I think you
described it best as what?
Come on, man.
This is two weeks in
a row you're making me
throw out something that's- No,
no, no, I'm not, I'm not asking
for a- for, uh, any words.
I'm saying how would
you describe him?
You said he looked like
he would've been…
I was like, he had the haircut
of the last Video Town employee.
I didn't
wanna steal that line, 'cause
it was perfect coming from you.
The haircut of the last
Video Town employee.
What I'm saying is,
like, he didn't look
like David Bowie, right?
You know, like this rock star.
Yeah.
He looked like the most
improbable guy- Yeah … that's
gonna start one of the most
iconic bands, uh, of all time.
Exactly.
And yet Because of this series
of events, right, he goes on
to become who he's become.
Now-
Right
…
now that same bizarre
series of events has led
to everything from Mozart
to Tiger Woods, right?
Yep.
Where you just had in,
in, in both those cases a
father figure that had some
unusual kind of pressure.
Recently, 'cause it, you
know, it's out in the movies
right now, uh, Michael Jackson
and his father- Yeah, yeah,
yeah … like, go, right?
Like, having- Yep … this
unusual thing, and so bizarre,
you know, how it unfolded.
What if- Yeah … what
if those people weren't
in that person's life?
Right.
Is there any chance they
would've become who they became
at the level they became it?
Yeah.
Probably not.
Yeah.
I mean, Joe Jackson gets tipped
into the smelting pot instead
of, you know, coming home
and, right, he's just gone.
Like, maybe Michael
still becomes who he
becomes, but probably not.
Maybe, but probably not.
And, and this is why
it's fascinating.
Because what if the person-
Yeah … that, that we were
meant to become never had
that chrysalis moment- Yeah
… until we became a founder?
Yeah, 'cause potential doesn't
just announce itself, right?
It, it has to be
activated in some way.
Right.
And I, like, look how many
versions of us never existed
because nobody handed
us the, the golf club.
Nobody handed us the drumstick.
Nobody handed us the microphone.
Nobody put us into a situation
that forced us to understand
that we're capable of
something we didn't know.
Right.
Right?
Because being a founder just
puts us at the center of 1,000
opportunities to try, learn,
fail, and uncover capacity.
Uh, which is wonderful,
because a lot of people
never go through that, right?
They just have these random
collisions with things
maybe throughout their
school years or whatever.
So I think, I think it's one
of the things that we should
absolutely be, be grateful
for in the founder space
is that we get this, right?
Our potential is sort
of forced out of us.
Yep.
I wanna snapshot a couple
moments in time to talk
about these counter examples.
Because in my career, you
know, I started a- as a CEO
essentially when I was 19.
So people are like, "Oh,
well you had a lot of time to
work on it," which is true.
But there's another
way to look at that.
I also had a couple
other jobs at exactly
that same time, right?
Yeah.
It wasn't like this was
the first thing I did.
So if you were to timestamp
this, so I'm 19 years old in
the summer of '94 or whatever
it was when I started Blue
Diesel, the, my first agency.
But not 18 months prior to that,
I worked as a sandwich chef for
D'Angelo's, which was like the
Subway- Oh, man … you know,
like Subway sandwiches- Yeah
… of the East Coast, right?
Yep.
So delicious.
But this is the- Hungry
… reason I bring this story up.
I got fired from that job.
Yeah.
Not, not fired for, like, I
did something wrong, like,
you know, I was negligent.
Fired, and this is so
hilarious, because I
couldn't pass the SATs.
What are the SATs?
Not what you think they are.
At D'Angelo's- Sandwich
they were the sandwich
aptitude test.
The sandwich aptitude test.
Ryan, there is a rule in the
employ- employer handbook,
like the franchise handbook
for D'Angelo's, that if an
employee cannot pass the SATs,
which is basically a test to
just say how much meat should
be on each type of sandwich.
Uh-huh.
How many slices of
ham, how many slices of
cheese.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
Need to be on each slice.
And it's like the dumbest test
you could possibly be given.
It's a-
I not only failed it, Ryan-
It's meat math.
Yeah.
It's
meat math.
It's meat math, right?
I failed it three times in a
row And so my manager, this
guy named Raymond, who's
actually a really nice guy-
Oh,
man
sits me down at a
booth at D'Angelo's.
This is me at 18 years old,
and he's like, "Listen,
man. I didn't even know
this was possible, but
I have to let you go."
I've never seen this before.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I'm like, "What did I do
wrong?" He's like, "You
didn't pass the SATs." I was
like, "Are we talking about
the same SIT- SATs test?"
Yeah.
I was just about to
graduate high school.
He's like, "No, the, the
sandwich test." Like-
Oh,
my God … "You failed
the sandwich test three
times, man. Like everyone
passes this test." Yeah.
You know, something that's
really funny about everything
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.
Everything you're dealing with
right now has been done a
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.
That's kind of what
we're here to do.
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually
solve these problems all day
long at groups.startups.com.
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing
about what to do.
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.
And God, man, think about
how many people that becomes
a defining moment for.
Yeah.
Think about how many
people, like, that,
that could have defined.
Like, because clearly you
don't think… Raymond
wasn't like, "Look, here,
got good news and bad news.
The, the bad news is you,
you failed the SAT, the
sandwich aptitude test.
Uh, the good news is you're
gonna go on to become a CEO
in the next four years."
Yeah.
Right,
right.
Right?
That wasn't on Raymond's mind.
Again, I love snapshotting these
moments because it- it's such a
beautiful illustration of these
different life paths, right?
I remember going back to my
car, my $800 Datsun, and being
like, "I'm a giant loser."
Datsun.
Right?
Yeah.
No, it was.
It was rust-colored.
It was disgusting, right?
Right.
And I remember saying, "I'm
a giant loser." And not
because I felt bad about
myself, because I was like,
"Will, dude, like, you're
about to enter the workforce,
like, for real, man." Yeah.
"You can't hold this job? Like,
what the fuck?" Right?
Like… And, and I
remember being really
sad about it, right?
Not like my life is over, more
like, "Uh, okay, this isn't
good." Now, a year later in an
alternate universe, Will would
go on to start a company and
become a millionaire, right?
Yeah.
Like, within a few years.
Yeah.
And, but he just lost his job
making $5 an hour and thought
it was, like, the end of times.
I
mean, on one hand, thank
God, because what if you-
Yeah … just become a
really good sandwich artist?
Oh my God.
Right?
Like, what if this conversation
was, "Will, I see so
much potential in you."
Yeah.
"
How would you feel about
being night manager?" Right?
And I was like, "Career."
Someday you might
move to day manager.
You, could you imagine owning
your own franchise someday, son?
Yeah.
Dare to dream.
Yeah.
Right?
Well, so that's the
interesting thing.
So we talked about, like,
the opportunities that
come along that kind of
put you onto the path.
Yeah.
But then there are also
things that can come
along that force you off
a particular path, right?
Yeah.
And I think that those
are interesting, too.
You've got another pretty
hysterical anecdote that I
would love for you to share
around how much time you were
spending on your computer.
Oh.
Okay, so
This is one of those
moments where, like, this
could have easily derailed
things in a different way.
Let's take Tiger Woods' dad,
Earl, forcing him into playing
golf in two years old, okay?
Yes.
Fast-forward, or rewind,
I guess, in this case, I'm
now 11 years old, okay?
Uh-huh.
I will never forget this moment.
I'm sitting there just engrossed
in a Commodore 64 computer.
Yeah.
Right?
I am, Ryan, I'm blown
away by this technology.
What other option did you have?
If you were 11 and you
had a Commodore 64, you
were engrossed, right?
That's what it is.
I, I, I was just blown away at,
at- Yep … the power of this
and the potential and everything
else like that, right?
And I'm trying to
explain it to my old man.
My dad, who's a carpenter,
was like, "Why are you on
this thing?" I mean, he begr-
begrudgingly bought it for me.
To give you a sense for how
much my dad knew, and this,
not meaning to, to knock him,
but knew about computers, or
really anybody did back then.
My dad, in maybe the most,
one of the most defining
moments as a father, bought
me a Commodore 64 computer,
uh, for Christmas that year,
but did not understand that
you also had to buy software.
Software, yeah.
He just knew that, like,
it, Commodore said, son
said Commodore box, right?
Yeah.
And he was able to
get the, the monitor.
The computer, which back
then was the keyboard and
the computer was in it,
in a disk drive, which
was external back then.
But he didn't understand
that you had, need software.
So- He
basically bought you
a really weird lamp
Dude, he bought me a
Nintendo with no cartridges.
Yes.
That's exactly what happened.
And so on Christmas morning,
I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't
believe it." And then I'm
like- Yeah … "Where's the
software?" He's like, "The
what where?" The what where?
And then I'm like, "Huh,"
blinking cursor, and that's
how I- Yeah … learned Basic.
A- anyway-
Yeah.
But fast-forward like
a year later, and I'll
never forget this moment.
I'm sitting there on my
computer just playing
video games or something,
and my dad turns to me.
My dad was a huge
wrestling fan, right?
And he was like, "Son, get
off the damn computer and
come watch wrestling." I'll
never forget that Saturday
morning when he said that.
Yeah.
And he meant well by it, and
what he meant by it- Of course
was, "Hey, man," like, "come
do stuff that doesn't involve
you sitting by yourself in
front of this fucking monitor
and come to this… Come do
something that involves…"
Yeah, s- 50-year-old man.
But he looked at this computer
as this bad device, right?
Yep.
Like, he bought it
begrudgingly 'cause his son
was so annoying to get it.
Yeah.
And he regretted it
every day since then.
And so imagine if I had taken
his advice for face value and
been like, "I guess this whole
computer thing, you know,
technology thing is gonna go
nowhere, but WrestleMania is
pretty dope, so I need to double
down on that," which it was.
M- my point is what if
that guiding hand had,
you know, gone- Yeah
the other direction?
He was the anti-Earl of
Tiger Woods era, right?
Yep.
And I had gone a
different direction.
I mean, on one hand, maybe you
would've become Vince McMahon.
How do we know, right?
Y- you never know, right?
You would've combined
wrestling and finance instead.
I will say this.
There was an alternate
version of this, uh, that
also happened where th- like
that summer, I would go on
the jobs with my dad, and
we'd build stuff, right?
And I would just be carrying
heavy shit like in the middle
of summer and… But I remember
saying to my dad, I was like,
"Dad, how awesome is this
that at the end of the day,
we get to create something
that's never been created
before?" I'm talking like
structures and things like that.
Yeah.
And my dad looks at me,
I'll never forget this.
And he looks at me and he's
like, "No, it's not awesome."
He's like- No … "I'm
40 years old, man." Yeah.
"My back is shot. My knees
are shot. Do anything but
this." And so what did I
do when I made some money?
I became a carpenter.
I did the exact- Yeah,
yeah … You're like, "I built
a wood shop immediately." Yeah,
exactly.
Yeah.
Which brings me to s-
sort of my next point
in all of this, right?
Once you realize that you can
be something other than what
life told you- Yeah … or what
your circumstances afforded
you- You start to ask yourself,
"Well, what else can I do?"
Yeah.
Right?
Which by the way, is
pretty fucking cool.
To be empowered enough one
time to be able to say,
"Well, if I can do this, why
can't I do this other stuff?"
Yeah.
I stopped thinking about
capabilities as the driving
force, meaning that, like,
the things that I knew
I was capable of, right?
Yeah.
Because I think that's a,
a big part of, like, what
we're… W- we go through
school, we come up, like,
as, as, you know, in our,
our youth, we're, we're being
given a set of tools, right?
Mm-hmm.
Almost like a, a set of keys to,
to some doors that they unlock,
and now that's the keys we have.
And I think that what, what we
were able to realize through
entrepreneurship early on
was that, like, I can unlock
any door I want to, right?
I can forge a key for
anything I want to.
And then there was this
crazy compounding value
in, in doing that.
Once you figure out you
can become one thing
you never imagined, you
start to question every
limitation around you, right?
That first transformation
might be the hardest, but
after that, that reinvention
just compounds, and competence
compounds into courage.
And once you break one
identity ceiling, the
others start to look really
fucking suspicious, right?
It's like, who's
saying I can't do this?
Like, and what- Right … what
the hell do they know?
They would've told me I
couldn't do that, that, or
that either, and I've already
done all that shit, so-
Right … why don't we go?
So you get into this thing
where you look at everything
with a second lens.
Yeah.
And you say, "Well,
why can't I do that?"
I'll give you some examples
that you are familiar with, you
know, maybe new to the audience.
Years ago, um, we were having
our, our house remodeled.
Uh, this is when-
Mm … Summer's room was
getting remodeled for
when Summer was born.
Yep.
So this would've been
almost exactly 15 years ago.
We have a guy in the house,
and he's basically rebuilding
the closet for what's
gonna be Summer's closet,
and it's a giant closet.
Uh, it's just a
weird, like, room.
But I, I'm watching
this guy do it.
This guy's, like, in his 60s,
and he's sitting there w-
with a table saw, and he's
building a really beautiful,
like, detailed walk-in closet.
Wow.
And so I ask him, just 'cause
I'm infinitely curious, I
said, "Hey, man, how is it
that you're able to get,
like, all these corners and
miters and everything, like,
really tight like that?"
And his answer blew my mind.
He's like, "Well, I go, I
measure it, I over-measure
it, I cut it, and then I, I
go back and I see if it fits.
And if it doesn't, I go back
and I cut it again." And
I was like, "Wait, h- hold
the fuck on for a second.
Are you messing with me right
now?" Where's the,
where's the magic calculation?
And I was like, "That's how
you make it look like that?"
Yeah.
He's like, "Yeah." Now,
I would learn many years
later that that is actually
how you do it, right?
Yes.
Um, it's called
sneaking up on the cut.
And because when you measure
things in carpentry, when you
measure things and you try to
cut it right the first time- Yep
for a litany of reasons,
it kinda just never works.
This is, yeah, we talked about
last week on the podcast, right?
Which is that, like, you
can plan all you want
until- Yep … you actually
put it into practice and
play, you're not gonna see
whether it actually fits.
So the, what a, what
a beautiful parallel.
Pause on that for a second.
But without that dinky piece
of knowledge- Mm-hmm … which
by itself seems trite
and almost, like, silly-
Yeah … you actually
can't build great things.
Like, in the, in the case of
carpentry, in this c- case
specifically, trim carpentry.
You will consistently
plan really well and build
things that have ugly gaps
and, and shitty seams.
Right.
You were at my house not
too long ago, and we were
building some cabinet doors.
And wasn't it exactly that?
It was like, you can
measure it and you can try
to get that thing to work.
It's not gonna happen, right?
Right.
Or you can cut it once,
it's gonna be off.
Uh-huh.
Cut it again, it's gonna be off.
L- and basic- Yep
like, again, sneak
up on the cut.
The reason I say this, you
know, share this story,
is that is actually how I
became a carpenter, right?
Yeah.
Was that guy told me something
so simple That I was like, "Hold
on a sec. If all that guy does
to be a- Yes … seasoned trim
carpenter and produce this-
Yep
…
is he just doesn't try to
cut it right the first time,
then why can't I do that?"
Yeah.
And it turns out that was
true, and I've become a
very avid carpenter since.
Yes.
And I built some
stuff.
Yes, you have.
So many things seem complicated
until you get closer to
them, and it turns out that
they are just built on some
very simple fundamentals.
Of course, they take, mastery
of anything takes, takes time.
But I think when we're looking
at anything from the outside,
anything that we're not already
competent in, it looks way more
complex than it actually is.
Right.
There are very few things
that I've gotten into and
was like, "Oh, shit, this is
way more complicated than I
thought it would be." It's
almost always the opposite.
There are things that
have, that have happened.
Yeah, look, I- For,
for example Right,
right
…
it goes way more
complicated than I thought.
There's all kinds of
stuff where I actually
do have a cognitive wall.
Here's what I would say.
When I hit that wall where I'm
like, this is either beyond
my interest level, right?
Yes.
Where I'm not willing to unpack
it anymore- Yeah, yeah … uh,
because I just kinda don't
care, it's rarely beyond what
I would call, like, a physical
boundary- Yeah … that I
simply cannot surpass, right?
Right.
Now, there are certain
things, sports would
be an example, right?
Like- Yeah.
Right, you, you were a
great soccer player, but
if the MLS called, right?
Yeah.
Or World Cup, which I think
is coming up next week, calls
and says, "Hey, we need you to
play tomorrow," there's a tiny
chance you may not make it.
Yeah.
Well, look, I would…
If they called, I'd go.
It'd work out
poorly for everyone.
That part isn't the problem.
Yeah.
The problem, the, the
problem happens when I
actually hit the pitch, yeah.
Right, right,
right.
You can't sneak up on that cut.
Yeah, you cannot.
And so there are certain things
that require a level of raw
capability or mastery that we
have neither the raw capability
for- Yep … or the time and
willingness- Yep … to master.
To prepare,
yeah.
To prep.
Prepare.
Did I say prepare?
I just made up a word.
Right, right.
However- That universe of things
that's truly beyond what we can
probably do is insanely small.
Yes.
But because from the outside
we look at it and say, "Well,
I don't know that…" Here,
here's a great example.
When people come to my house,
you know, again, you've been
through this journey with me, so
I'm explaining it to everybody
else, and they see that, like,
I've built every cabinet,
every closet- Yeah, yeah
everything, or that I've
architected the entire house,
or that I've- Yeah … pulled,
like, all the wire and designed
all the systems, right?
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
They look at that and
they say, "There's no way
I could have done that."
Uh-huh.
And I give them the same answer.
Yeah.
"There's no way that
you can't do it," right?
Like Yeah, yeah.
Right.
There's like… It's,
it's impossible to not be
able to do it if you're
willing to do it, right?
Yeah.
Because it's not like I have
some special honed technique of
wielding a drill that you cannot
That you can't do.
Yeah.
Like, oh my God, dude.
Like, yes, it, it requires
time and, and expertise,
but all things that you can
absolutely do if you want to.
If
you want to.
Yeah.
Now, what's fascinating
about how this maps back to
entrepreneurship, you know, and,
and people building stuff is
we genuinely believe that there
are all these skills and traits
and things that we can't do
And
what we realize is most of
it's just because you haven't
done, and the rest of it is
because you're not willing
to build the competency.
Yep.
My Getting Customers workshop
last week, I was walking people
through something very similar.
So I'll twist it a little
bit 'cause we were talking
really specific to kinda
like marketing knowledge.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
Um, but just think of
it as like the founder
reinvention loop, right?
Yeah.
It starts with forced
exposure, right?
The company creates a need.
All of a sudden it's telling
you, "There's a thing that
has to be done that you
haven't done." Then you move
into awkward first reps. Yep.
You're bad and
you're uncomfortable.
Yep.
And it's okay.
Yep.
You get some fast feedback.
The market tells you, or the
business responds in a way that
tells you what actually matters.
You start to develop
useful confidence, right?
Yep.
You become dangerous enough,
or you get to that 80% point,
and then all of a sudden
you have that identity shift
where you stop saying, "I'm
not that person," right?
Yeah.
And that's it.
And this happens over and
over and over and over
again in a startup company.
Yeah, I agree, and I, I think a
lot of people also don't realize
that becoming that person isn't
something that you, that just
happens immediately, right?
Nope.
Like, all of the people that
are the greatest at what they
do are the greatest at what
they do because of the amount
of time they've invested.
You know- Yes
the 10,000 hours
of mastery thing.
Yep.
Yep.
But I'll give that
a bit of a twist.
I'll give that a bit
of a twist or a filter.
Most of us, for what we need
to accomplish, just don't
need that level of competency.
Houses don't get built
by 30 master carpenters.
They do not, right?
I mean, it's-
No … unbelievable
the lack of capability.
And this goes back to what
we were saying a moment ago.
They get built in spite
of the capability.
They get
built despite- Yep … the
capabilities of the
people building them,
and people downplay that.
Like, "Oh, you know, you're,
you're downplaying this
person's competence." Nope.
No.
No, I am not.
I saw some of the framing.
Yeah.
No, no you're not.
You, you watched it firsthand.
And, and what fascinates me,
though, is that each of those
people, it's all they do.
And I'll give you an
example- Yeah … 'cause
it j- just happened today.
So, you know, as you know, I'm
building a house and, and, uh,
we're in the, the final stages
of this, and, and I'm talking
today, I'm on, on site talking
to the carpet installers, right?
And they said, "Hey, there,
there's word on the street
on this project that,
like, you're, like, really
involved in this project."
Yeah.
And I was like, "Well, what
have you heard?" They're like,
"People are saying that you,
like, were the architect and
the general contractor and,
like, the carpenter and, like,
the electrician," like- Mm-hmm.
I was like, "Yes." The- Yeah.
He's like, "Yeah, to
which one?" All of them.
I did literally all of
these things, right?
And, and he said to me, paid
me the highest compliment
that a man can pay a man,
particularly in this thing.
He's like, "They don't make
men like you anymore," right?
And I was like, "Go on, say that
into the microphone, please."
And, and, and what, what he
was saying was- Wait, hang on.
Do you mind
running it back?
Let me hit record here real
quick.
Yeah, yeah.
And not to take more of it
than he said, he basically
was just saying, "When I'm
working on stuff, when I'm
on job site, whatever, I
don't see guys that are just
willing to do- Every trade.
Yeah.
I see a trade.
I'm framer.
Yeah.
All I do is framer, right?
Yeah.
And that's it.
They, well, it goes back to that
skin in the game thing, right?
Like, you're doing this
because you are literally
tied to the outcome, right?
Yeah.
You're gonna be living
in this thing.
I really care about the outcome.
But I also really care, and
again, I think this is a
universal term that, that
you can appreciate too, I
care about craftsmanship.
Yes.
I care about one's belief
that what they build is an
extension of who they are.
And that reflects in, in, in
every single thing that you do.
Correct.
Right?
Like, it's really im-
important to me that my
stamp of me, my DNA, right,
is in my work, right?
Like, very much in-
ingrained in it.
One of the places that I see
you do it in a way that I've,
I've always admired, and we've
talked about this, is, is
your work as a father, right?
Like-
Yeah
…
your craftsmanship if you,
if you can apply it that way-
Yeah … is extraordinary.
And for those of you that
are listening that, that
don't know Ryan, he is
like- I'm definitely
sneaking up on the cut.
Yeah.
Definitely sneaking
up on the cut.
Uh, Ryan is the
Tom Brady of dads.
Like, he is like, like,
like, the greatest-
Oh, man.
Oh, man
…
dad a- as, as a parent.
I mean, uh, he,
uh, well deserved.
And- Am
I, am
I blushing?
Yeah.
Good.
Yeah.
Who knows?
I'm white as a ghost.
But I, I guess what I'm
saying is, like, but you
care about the craft.
And, and- Yeah … obviously
everybody cares about their
kids, but you care about
the craft of being a parent.
Like you're very, very
detailed about it.
And there's a pride that
comes with that, right?
Like when you and I talk-
Yeah … on the weekends
and you tell me what you're
doing with the kids and that-
It, there is, there's a
pride that comes with it.
But more than that, there's
an ROI that comes with it.
I just talked to a mutual
friend of ours, founder that
we both know and love, um,
earlier today, and w- was going
through a little bit of a,
of a crisis herself and, and
we were talking about this.
And I said, "Look, it's…"
And I, I referenced
the kids as an example.
And I said, "Look, I, I know
a lot of people who aren't
enjoying parenthood in the way
that I enjoy it because they're
not…" It, and it was basically
what you're saying now.
They're not treating
it as a craft.
Right.
They're not trying to
perfect the angles and
get the cuts right and
do all the little things.
And because of that, they're
not enjoying it in the same way.
Yeah.
I think that what I figured
out was that the more I invest
in this, the more you invest
in anything, the more you're
gonna get back out of it.
Right.
And so, like, I was lucky enough
to have stumbled across some of
those moments that motivated me
into saying like, "Okay, so if
it's not going the way I want it
to, I can change that," right?
"I can make this into something
that's enjoyable for me and the
kids and my wife and all of us."
Which is what this is all about.
It's, it's about saying like- Mm
… look, like, um, the reason
that we can build competency
and the reason as founders,
like, we find ourselves,
again, in, you know, this, this
cauldron of, of competency,
like, you know, being able
to do these things- Yeah
is because, as you said
a moment ago, it gives us
a reason to do it, right?
Gives us a reason- Right … to
explore these competencies
that we didn't have before.
It's rare that, like, I
wouldn't have for no reason
picked up- Finance, right?
For just no reason.
Right.
Right?
No, no.
Like, it's the, the
ambition behind it.
Yeah.
By the way, it, it's the reason
I don't know another language.
Oh.
Because I've never had a
reason- Oh … to want to
learn another language.
It, it took pure brute
force for me, right?
But
you're also in another
country, right?
I mean, like, I, I- Just
exposure, right?
Yeah.
Right Like, just pure necessity.
Like, I can't go and do
things I need to do if- Yep
I don't learn this language.
Yep.
And so, you know, I, I look at
it as, I think, like again, the
cauldron, I, I keep using that
word because it's like you're
forced- Mm-hmm … inside of it.
And, and I think a lot of
people- Oh, yeah … look
at it as a bad thing.
I look at it as g-
as a good thing.
Yeah.
Now, I will also say this:
it doesn't always work.
It it doesn't always go to plan.
And I'll, I'll share a story,
Ryan, that I know you're
familiar with, of where
I put this maybe I can do
everything to an epic test.
And I, I won't spoil the
ending, but clearly it
d- it didn't go well.
So rewind back.
This is, you know, uh, quite a
while back, maybe 20 years ago.
And, uh, I'm a casting director
as part of a, a company that
I'd started in LA, and I'd
just moved to Hollywood, and,
and my co-founder was a talent
agent, and he knew everybody,
and we used to go to these
extraordinary dinners and
meet all these amazing people.
He's the one that got me
on the, the board of the,
The Rock Hall, actually.
And, uh, anyway, we're at a
dinner in Hollywood, and, uh,
there's like a big table of us,
maybe like 10 of us, and, uh,
we're sitting around this like,
uh, big table, and there's this
guy sitting next to me, right?
We're both in our, like,
late 20s, early 30s,
and we start talking.
He's… I ask him
what he does, right?
'Cause people in LA had
like, say what you will,
there's so many people with
really interesting jobs.
Like, it's very rare.
No, I totally get that.
I totally get… It was one
of the things that people used
to ask me, like what we loved
about Antigua, Guatemala, and I
was like, "It's the per capita
interesting person quotient."
Yeah.
Like, it was out of whack there.
People were… You would
just run into really,
really interesting people.
Yes, I, I, I totally understand.
Uh, anyway, he's like,
"I'm a professional backup
dancer," and this is, again,
figure like mid-2000s.
And he's like, "Uh, I've been
dancing for, like, Britney
and Justin and like…"
Which were big deals back then.
Yeah, it was sort of the, the
peak of the game at that point.
Yeah, right.
And so he turns to me like,
"So, so what do you do?" Right?
Now, mind you, a couple
drinks in, a little bit bored.
I turn to him and I was
like, "Well, you know, it's
funny you should say, man.
I actually am a professional
backup dancer, too."
Right?
Now, the way to sell it, the
way to sell it, okay, isn't
just how confident you are.
It's by complaining about it.
This is actually something
I learned growing up- Oh,
yeah, yeah, yeah … with
my dad on the job sites.
Yeah.
All those guys do is complain.
Complain
about the job And it's kind
of how they share- Yeah
like, their confidence, I guess.
And so the way to sell it was
I was like, "You know, man,
I got into this because all
I cared about was performing
and dancing." I was like,
"But the game is bullshit now.
People are doing it for
all the wrong reasons now.
Like, you know, n-
nobody's serious about,
about it, whatever."
And as soon as you start
complaining about it- Oh, yeah
… nobody who doesn't do it for a
living would start complaining-
Right … about it, right?
Yes.
And so he jumps in.
He's like, "Oh my God,
let me… Don't even
get me started," right?
And so I'm kidding
of course, right?
Yeah.
But
it was just going so well that
I just kept going with it.
And so as the night goes on,
this new nightclub that was
opening up, and for those
of you that lived in LA or
you know the lore, you can
kind of timestamp this.
This is, it's the weekend or
whatever that area opened up.
And so we go there, right?
Massive line and, you know,
Alex Hol- business partners,
uh, old thing was be able
to get into, like, any
club and stuff like that.
Uh-huh.
So he gets us all in, right?
And so we're, we're up, like,
the little VIP and whatever
looking over the dance floor,
and this guy, he's like, "See
those guys over there?" I was
like, "Yeah." He's like, "I
know those guys." He's like,
"They suck." I was like,
"Yeah, they do suck," right?
And we're knocking down,
like, tequila shots or
whatever, and so we kind of
make our way- Dance fight
down there.
We're standing there, and I
see him, like, talking to them,
like, just, like, big talking.
Like, he's friendly,
but whatever.
And next thing I know,
this is where, like, the
whole thing turns into,
like, Polaroid moments.
Next thing I know, he's
challenged them to a
straight up dance-off.
Dance-off.
I didn't even know this
was a thing, right?
Dance battle.
A- and I'm sure they
don't call it a dance-off.
I'm sure there's a much
cooler term, but in my
mind, that's all I knew.
Anyway, so here's what I, I see,
like, unfolding in front of me.
I see the dance
floor open up, right?
Like, almost, like, on cue.
It's me and this guy and
these other two dancers.
And so the first dancer goes in.
He's amazing.
Everybody's going nuts.
My guy goes in, right?
He's amazing.
Everybody's goes, goes nuts.
Next guy goes in.
He's amazing.
Everybody goes nuts, right?
And I'm shouting, and
I'm, like, super excited
about this whole thing.
How
have you not left the
room at this point?
Oh my God, dude.
It didn't even occur
to me that I was a main
event on this dance-off.
Yeah.
Okay?
Oh, yeah.
This is the best part.
Yeah.
So- You saved the best for last
…
he turns to me in full
confidence because of all the
shit I've been talking for
the last- Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah … couple of hours, right?
He's like,
"
You are…" This-
And he's like, he's like,
"Dude, get in there," right?
He's picturing you
coming off the top rope.
Yeah.
Tagging you in.
It's- Man, confidence is
powerful, but delusion plus
tequila- Delusion … plus
a dance circle is a very
different operating system.
So there was, there was
a couple things going on.
First thing was there
was so much energy at
that moment, right?
Like, I was just on fire.
Second-
You had begun to believe it
maybe a lot of tequila.
Yeah.
And third, here's
what I said: What if?
What- Yeah … I, so I
mean, what if, right?
What if?
Like, I- I will- … I
like to dance … I will,
I will know soon … maybe
I'm really good at it.
I will know very soon.
Right?
And maybe I'm as
good as those guys.
Maybe I'm better.
Yeah.
Right?
But I never… Like,
no one ever said to me
like, "Go for it," right?
Yeah.
So I did, right?
I get out there-
Please tell me that in
addition to Lars' speech
that this is on YouTube.
This only exists in the
deepest bowels of my mind,
and this is exactly how I
remember it I don't remember
what I did, although now,
you know, years later, do
you remember that Australian
lady who did the break dance
thing, uh, in the Olympics?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, right?
Like- Oh, yeah … I could
only imagine- Oh, yeah … like
if you wanna picture a dance,
just picture whatever she did.
Yeah, it
was something like that.
My, my- I can see it … cheesy
club guy version of that.
I can see
it.
And all I do know is that in a
very short period of time, it
was very clear to every single
person on the dance floor,
including the professional
dancers, that I was in fact
not a professional dancer.
Not a
backup dancer, yeah.
Yeah.
And
all I remember is this look
of horror on everybody's face,
like, "What the hell?" Yeah.
And I just remember these two
giant hands on my back, like
grabbing my shoulders, and being
like, "You need to leave now."
You gotta go.
I remember I was like, uh…
And next thing I know I'm, like,
in an alleyway or something in
the, inside, and Alex is like,
"Dude, what were you thinking?"
Yeah.
And I was like, "Was I any
good?" He was like- Was that any
good?
… "No." He's like, "You did
not" Take two good pop, huh?
"You were not." And so this is
a, a long story to say that,
yes, it is possible, you know,
that, that maybe you could
be good at everything, but
sometimes it is certifiably
possible Yeah … that
you absolutely suck at it.
Look, the lesson here isn't we
can master anything instantly.
The lesson is we can become
more than we assumed with time,
reps, maybe a little humility,
and a little less tequila.
Um, because while founder
confidence is rocket
fuel, founder confidence
without some reps is a
dance floor crime scene.
Yeah, yeah.
And again, and honestly, like
other than a silly story, right?
No cost to it, right?
Yeah.
No cost.
And, and I think for a lot of
this, you know, we have this
idea that, that if we don't, if
we don't fulfill that promise,
that dream, that outcome-
Yeah … that, like, you know,
something horrible will happen.
No, not really.
Not really.
Right?
Like, if, if you're not a
great designer, if you're not
a great accountant, if you're
not a whatever, it's okay.
Yeah.
Like, you, like especially with
being a founder, like s- you'll
find someone else to do it.
But what if?
And that's why we… I,
it's, it, I talk about this
a lot in terms of, like,
when founders are really
struggling to find their ICP,
their ideal client profile.
They're like, "Well, I don't
know if it's this one, or if
it's this one, or it's this
one." And it's like, what if?
Like, it could be any of those,
and it kind of doesn't matter.
If you pick one, you can either
rule it in or rule it out.
You're gonna find out-
Yeah … you can dance that
backup dance or that you can't.
And then we move on to the
next dance floor, and you
just, you just keep moving.
And that's fine.
Um-
So- I, I- … while, while we
respect your confidence, Will,
we do question the choreography.
Yeah.
And w- and, and, and this
story's ridiculous in its own
right, but the premise of that
though, is what if, right?
If we don't try what
if, if we don't dig in
and say what if- Yeah
or at least have the confidence
to say, "Yeah, okay, maybe this
won't be for me", but it won't
be for lack of trying, right?
Right.
It won't be for me, you know,
lack of opening up the doors.
I wanna know.
I'm not gonna let- Other
people's determination of what
I c- I, I can or can't be.
Like- Exactly … I'm not
the guy that passed the
SATs at D'Angelo's in the
sandwich world, right?
Right.
I'm not going to be that guy.
And, you know, and for-
Yeah … someone else,
that could be a huge issue.
And I'm like, "Fuck it.
You know what?" Yeah.
"I'm gonna go do, do something
else." And maybe I'll
fail- No dress
rehearsals in life.
Yep.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, like, and maybe
I'll fail at that, too.
But the difference is I'm gonna
use this opportunity, in this
case of being a founder, to
be the one time, the one time
where no one can tell me what
I can't do except me, right?
No one can say, "You can't
be the CEO, you can't be
the designer, you can't
be whatever," except me.
And I think when we have
this one unique opportunity
in life to be all of the
things that maybe we should
be, we should take it.
We should go after every
opportunity possible as
if we're, maybe we're the
best, 'cause who knows?
Maybe we actually are.
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