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A podcast discussing health and well-being topics with experts from all around the state of Wisconsin
The information in this podcast does not provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. It should not be used as a substitution for healthcare from a licensed healthcare professional. Consult with your healthcare provider for individualized treatment or before beginning any new program.
Hello and welcome to Well, Wisconsin Radio, a podcast discussing health and well-being topics with experts from all around the state of Wisconsin. I'm your host, Alexis Krause, and today my guest is Carmen Pitre. Ms. Pitre is the President and Chief Executive Officer of Sojourner, Wisconsin's largest service provider for families dealing with domestic violence.
She is past Chair of the State of Wisconsin Department of Justice Violence Against Women Advisory Committee, and is a founding member of the Violence Against Women Act Human Trafficking Subcommittee. These are among many additional service roles and accomplishments that Carmen has achieved.
Thank you so much for being here with me today, Carmen. Thanks for having me. Well, I wanted to kick us off. Um, we're going to be airing this in October this year. Mm hmm. And October is National Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Um, could you start our conversation off today with defining what domestic violence actually is and the impact that it can have on someone's health and well-being?
Sure. So thank you for having me today, and thank you for not reading my bio. I think it just means I've been around in the work, uh, a long time, and there's still so much to do. And, you know, we'll be handing this over as I age out of my, uh, career to younger people like you, and perhaps many listening, um, handing this over for you to try to solve, uh, the level of violence across the globe, actually, against women and men and children is unprecedented. Um, but in particular against women. Um, and for us it's a human rights issue, so I, I always like to start from that place. Any human is eligible to be hurt by another. So, normally when I begin to talk about domestic violence, family violence, intimate partner violence, any of those, um, words can describe what can happen between two humans, uh, who are intimately connected.
So I say, you know, it's, um, subtle to severe, it can include a range of behavior, but it's a pattern of behavior in a relationship where one person is dominant over another; could include physical violence, sexual violence, emotional, spiritual, and it could be subtle to severe. So, on the subtle side, it could be pinching, pushing, slapping, spitting on you, all the way to black eyes, broken bones, and ultimately death, right, in lethal cases. So sexual violence, name calling, um, getting others to name call, uh, you, your body, criticizing your body, all the way to, uh, sexual assault, sexual abuse, forced sex, those kinds of things. Emotional abuse I hear, uh, survivors talk about is harder to quantify, doesn't include or doesn't always include, um, when you're talking about emotional and verbal, you know, doesn't include what you typically think, black eyes, broken bones, bruises.
So survivors who are in an abusive, verbal, abusive relationship often say it's harder for them to really understand what's happening and they don't see themselves often in, in the work in the world or the conversation. So that just means we have to do a better job, I think. Yeah. That totally makes sense and, um, just the definition is so broad, right?
Yeah, if I were It's hard to know you're, it's happening, right, sometimes? So I would say pattern over time that happens in a relationship that includes the use of violence in, in several forms, uh, by one person against another. And it results in control and harm in that relationship. That makes sense. So, what are some of the current trends we're seeing with domestic violence in Wisconsin and how does this compare with other national trends, like prevalence, um, increase in the disease, demographics, things like that?
Well, you know, in Milwaukee, we've been and the numbers have trended down somewhat this year gratefully. But we've been in the midst of a homicide epidemic. I think before Covid in the summer of 2019, we were noticing that the number of homicides were starting to peak. So for me, that's the tip of the iceberg is the number of people who are dying.
In particular, we see more women of color, black and brown women, becoming the victims of homicide. That spiked in 2019, 2020, 2021 and 22, and this year seems to be leveling off still at a much higher rate. Before 2019 a bad year in my career would have been 15-16 homicides. A really bad year would have been 25.
In COVID and 2020 we hit 52. So the number spiked and dropped down into the forties. I think we're in the thirties. We're going to end this year. Fingers crossed in the thirties. One life is too many to lose. Um, so when I think about the homicides, I would say we've been in an epidemic. The numbers are still way too high. And it's a reflection, I think, of the lethality in our city, uh, that women in particular are living with in their relationships. We have far too many, um, women who are facing potential homicides. So tip of an iceberg, the second part of the, the, um, the pyramid or the iceberg is a much bigger group of women who are facing lethal violence.
Uh, and then, you know, it sits on this base of children who witnessed violence, learn it's acceptable, live out into that legacy. That might be an elementary way to describe it, but that's how I think of it. So if you think about prevalence, um, it's homicide is way too, way too high coming down. Uh, domestic violence is the one category of crime, both in Milwaukee and I would say around the country that has not been going down while other forms of crime are. So it's been persistently, um, resistant to prevention efforts, right? Um, which is a symbol to me that we need to think about the doors that we're opening for people and are, what are the ways that people are trapped and can't come forward.
So there's a lot of people to serve? There are a lot of people. We serve 9, 600 people last year.
We had 64, 000 contacts with those people. And it's just, as I said, it's just the tip of the iceberg of the people who need help. So you know, no one organization is going to get there. on their own. We need to collaborate. We need to partner. We need to think differently about where people live, work and play.
And can they get the resources they need there. Because most people are not going to come down to sixth and Walnut and have a conversation with us. They will when they're engaged with law enforcement, DA’S. Office. But the world is changing, and we have to think about how to get there sooner in people's lives.
Can you tell us a little bit about how relationship dynamics typically happen? Like, do these things happen over time, right away, um, how can this lead to the cycle of abuse? It can be both, you know, I've seen cases where people get intimately involved very quickly and it rapidly becomes abusive, uh, in that.
Um, in that relationship or, and it can develop over time. Um, mostly I've heard survivors say, you know, this was my dream person, it was perfect. Um, you know, I didn't see or I, I wasn't willing to see or couldn't see the red flags in the beginning and progressively it got more and more, uh, abusive and I became more and more isolated.
So, when we get back to that pattern, I would say, you know, isolation and possessiveness and jealousy are part of the pattern, and certainly, you know, any type of injury, pushing, slapping, those kinds of things, um, are, are abusive. They tend not to happen right away. I say to people, people in abusive relationships start out like all of us, you know, they meet someone, they feel really excited and connected, and then as they begin to get to know that person, they begin to get trapped and isolated in this cycle, uh, of violence.
You know, we have far too many kids who grow up in violence, who are either, uh, prone to hurt others, or prone to be victimized by others. So we have to do a better job, I think with younger people, to be in good conversation about, well, what does it really mean to be in a relationship and have feelings or to be angry?
What did you see as a kid? Because far too many adults grew up in that environment. And we have clients who will say, well, that's just our love language. That's how we, that's what I thought love was. And there's no better model for it in their, in their household. Exactly. And, you know, as a community, we have to think about that and be the people that change that.
Are there any events that cause an uptick in domestic violence reporting? Like, for example, I've heard that a Packer's loss can cause an uptick in calls. Is there anything like that that you see trends happening with? I, you know, I haven't seen, I would say anything that causes, um, emotion or, um, Disruption in the life of a person who hurts others can be a triggering event, right?
So a loss, a disappointment, loss of a job, any of those things could trigger. Um, what I like to say is, you know, these things don't organically make violence happen. The seeds of violence were already there. Can it cause violence to spike? Yes. Um, and you know, there are various reports on the call rate, uh, after a loss of a sports team or something like that.
But I think of it as violence is already present in that person's life. It's something that they believe is acceptable. They have, more than likely, it's not the first time that they've used violence and it can erupt when they get triggered, and disappointed. Does that make sense? It definitely makes sense.
Yeah, it's it's more broad than just one item happening It's already been planted. Exactly. And yes, of course, it can cause a spike I just think it means we have to pay better attention to the people around us right and say if I notice some someone's behavior in my life, in other words, if there's a person in my life, who's abusive, you know, I need to look for an opportunity to try to have a meaningful conversation with that person, uh, outside of that sports event or, but I need to be paying attention.
And if I have, uh, a person in my life who is sounding like they're isolated, being hurt, I have a suspicion; I also need to figure out how to have a meaningful conversation about how to help that person. I love that little nugget of paying attention, right? Right. How might someone recognize that they, themselves, or someone they know is experiencing domestic violence?
You know, as an outsider, I think, um, as a coworker, a friend, a parishioner, someone you're sitting with at church, you know, again, first thing is pay attention, uh, listen. Survivors, I think, are looking for someone. Who can be an ally. And so, we need to be safe people. First of all, we need to be aware and awake in our lives.
And, uh, looking around. I think unexplained injuries. Certainly, if a survivor comes forward and says this is happening. Start from a place of believing them. You don't have to be an expert, but believe them. And then help build a bridge between them and the resource they need or want. And it, it could be a range of things.
We can have a conversation about that. But being aware, uh, knowing what resources are. Um, you know, things that, that are red flags are unexplained injuries. Anxiety about being at home, anxiety about needing to get home, certainly listening to the words that are being exchanged. You know, someone who hurts others might not be the most respectful in how they talk about and to people.
Pay attention to that. Observe behavior. Uh, but, uh, possessive behavior, jealousy, obsessiveness, constant texting, checking in. You know, I've known women who've said Uh, I remember a colleague of mine early on in my career, her husband would drive her to work and if he didn't like what she had chosen to wear, he'd go and pick out another outfit and come back and make her change.
And, you know, I, I noticed it. I thought that's pretty extreme. And, you know, looked for a safe opportunity to mention it to her, to say, you know, I think that's kind of extreme. How do you feel about it? So, notice, create a safe opportunity to have a conversation and then try to speak to that person. So possessive behavior, unexplained injuries, anxiety, and confirmation by a person who says I'm being hurt and/or.
Those are really useful items to keep an eye out for whether it's yourself or someone you care for. Exactly. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of pressure on survivors. Absolutely. Who think that it, I think survivors are used to being blamed, and sometimes I've heard women say they want to come forward to explore their options and not be told, leave, do this, do that.
I think all of us as humans want autonomy, and we want to be able to self-determine, and survivors are no different. They want us to listen as a loved one or a friend, and to say, how can I help? What do you want to do? It's not always about leaving. That's not something I would have thought of; It's not always about leaving.
Right. Which can be painful for us, right, as, as friends and colleagues and, because we want it to stop, but what that really says to a person is that, you know, that's your only option. It kind of cuts off, uh, I think the space they need to explore what feels meaningful for, for them in that moment. Yeah, there's a lot more gray in that space than just one way or another. Right, right.
What are some recommendations that you would have for someone who might be experiencing domestic violence firsthand? We kind of touched on this. Well, first of all, I would say, you know, whenever I have conversations, speak to the media, I say, you know, there's a couple of things survivors need to hear.
You're not alone. So think about the people in your life who love you. Uh, you may be isolated from them or not in contact. You may have not been able to be in contact, but remember that people love you and you're not alone. It's not your fault, you know, no matter what. Uh, that's why I claim this as a human rights issue.
No matter what. Nobody has the right to physically, emotionally, spiritually, or sexually hurt or harm you. As a human being, you have the right to be safe. And so many of us are not, but you have that right. So, it's not your fault. There's nothing you could have done to cause it. No matter what. And many survivors are told it's your fault, you did this, you didn't do that.
That's not true, that's a lie. And then the third is, we're here to help, right? And so what does that mean? I think for us, listening and talking and thinking, we have to figure out what does it mean to be a safe person. Well, what are the resources? When I say to somebody, call law enforcement, what does that mean, what does that feel like?
Get a restraining order, go to shelter. You know, Understand the things that might be helpful and how to build the bridge between that person and a safe advocate. You know, we're protected by confidentiality by statute in the state of Wisconsin, which means that if you call me today and say, I'm being hurt, um, I want to talk to you would be breaking the law if we were to tell anybody about that conversation. So your anonymity is protected. So, you can call us. It's safe. There's seven other organizations who provide, in addition to Sojourner, culturally specific doorways, uh, for Hmong women, Latina women, black women, uh, LGBT, trans, questioning people.
There are resources. So, whatever doorway is meaningful for you, there's a place for you here in Milwaukee. Did I answer your question? You absolutely did. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Mm hmm. Um, I wanted to move into what are some of the best practices on how to approach someone you suspect might be experiencing domestic violence.
You talked about your old coworker who, you know, was showing up in different outfits because their partner wanted them to change. Right. Um, but what are some of those ways you could approach someone? Well, I think number one is paramount is, uh, respect, right? Approach someone in a respectful way, in a way that, you know, Reflects to them that, you know, you see them as an individual.
In other words, I wouldn't blurt it out in a meeting or in front of coworkers. I would look for an opportunity to have a safe, confidential, respectful conversation with them. Um, If I'm a friend, same thing. If I'm at church with you, if I work with you, if you're the mom of a kid that is in my, my, you know, my child’s sports team, I would try to look for an opportunity to have a confidential conversation and then let go of expectations because the person may say, what are you talking about, right?
They may push back and just expect that, you know, maybe the person's not ready to talk and make it, um, you know less dramatic and just say hey, I noticed I wanted you to know you could say I I went to this Presentation or I heard this podcast and I'm learning about Uh this issue that I didn't know was as prevalent as it is, and I just wanted to check in and make sure you're safe you know. And then let them respond.
Um, you could say something like I see you I see that you have bruises. I'm concerned. I love you and do you want to talk about it? And then let the person have the dignity of deciding yes or no. So look for a confidential way to have a respectful conversation and speak the truth. You know, I remember years ago, I had a friend who was with an abusive spouse and um, I looked for an opportunity to have a conversation with him to say, I see, I know about this and uh, if it happens again, I'm going to intervene and call law enforcement. I just want you to know that.
So, you know, not everybody can or is ready to take that, I, that step. I would say do something that feels meaningful for you and safe for you. So don't put yourself in harm's way as a colleague or a friend. Look for a confidential way to be respectful and then let go of the expectations.
Let them know they're seen. Yeah. That's important. Mm hmm. Um, let's say that we suspect that someone is a victim and we've tried unsuccessfully to engage with them, that, that initial conversation we were just talking about didn't work, um, what are some steps that you would recommend to take after that? Is it, you know, just kind of waiting and seeing what happens next or how would you handle that? I think, uh, trying to have a conversation, getting them some literature, you know, in a respectful way. But at some point, if a person says, look, I don't want to talk about this. I think you just have to let go and be aware and be ready when that person comes forward so that if they come forward, you're prepared and you're not judging.
I think individuals have the right to stay, to leave, whatever. And, and, you know, I remember talking to women, uh, back in the day when I did advocacy. I'm like, you need to go to shelter, and a client would say, I can't, you know, my 90-year-old mom lives downstairs, or, you know, I have to go to work, I need to keep my apartment.
I'm like, okay, then let's talk about what safety means, you know, I can't live in a shelter. So there are all kinds of reasons and barriers that people have, uh, that, that sort of, uh, shape how they're able to move forward. So be nonjudgmental, be available, be ready, give them the resources, have a conversation, say, here's some of the websites, here's some literature I picked up from Sojourner.
Call us on our hotline and ask us to mail or go to our website. And then I think you just have to be in a position of letting go. Um, and, you know, thinking about if you were to witness an incident, be ready to call 9-1-1. You know, law enforcement isn't the answer to every situation, but it certainly is in an escalating situation, right?
I think it's better to get information through, um, earlier in our life cycle in other ways, like in our churches, schools, medical settings. Um, but if it's escalated to the point you might have to call public safety. I like that you don't always have to be the expert either. No one's expecting you to have all the answers if you're approaching someone you care about.
But there's a lot of resources around you. Exactly. And you are an expert in that you love the person. Yeah. Right? You're right. And that's the only thing you have to be grounded in. So I kind of want to move into some resources that are available to people. Um, where can these be found specifically for the state of Wisconsin?
You mentioned seven other places that are available, um, in Milwaukee here alone. So, um, a couple of things you can do. You can go to FamilyPeaceCenter.org. That's our website. We're in the, we're going to be under construction soon. So, um, on our site, but you can definitely get all of our resources and then there's a site called https://weareheremke.org/ and all the seven other culturally specific smaller programs belong to this website called https://weareheremke.org/. So I would say those are two resources. We have a 24 hour hotline and a text line That you can call Or text you can get those numbers. It's 414-933-2722 is our phone number.
I don't know the text line by heart, but you can text us to get a hold of an advocate when you think about the options that are available to you. There are shelters, restraining orders, you can certainly call law enforcement and there's a protocol that they follow when they come to the scene. Um, right.
Relocating their support group services both here at Sojourner and some of these other agencies like the Hmong American Women's Association, the Latina Resource Center, the ASHA Project. They all have supportive resources. Case managers at all of our organizations. Uh, End Abuse Wisconsin is a statewide, uh, coalition.
Every state in the country has a coalition that has member programs. We're a member. Um, and all 72 counties in the state of Wisconsin have a have programs. We're really lucky in Milwaukee that we have so many. Some counties only have one program. Um, there's also the national domestic violence hotline that you could call, talk to them confidentially and they would to resources in your zip code.
Um, there's the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence. Um, so there are a number of resources you can find online. Great. And I will link those in the show notes afterwards as well. Great. If someone listening wants to help support, You know, people experiencing domestic violence either here in Milwaukee or in their area, what are some ways that they could do this? So I always think of time, treasure, or talent, right? So donate your time. Volunteer in a shelter, in a program. All of the organizations who do this work, I call a social profit organizations instead of nonprofit. I'm on a little crusade at the end of my career because I think, you know, nonprofit organizations generate a lot of social profit.
So I think we're social profit organizations. Donate your time. Uh, there's, you know, hotlines, there are meals that can be served, children's programs. In shelter there are meals that need to be served at support groups or during support group times. Um, there's lots of time needed. There's special projects, gardens to be planted, yards to be mowed, and weeded, and those kinds of things.
So time. Treasure, of course, donating. You know, we have some people who donate $20 a month, $15 a month, $25 a year, all the way up to major donations. So I would say, you know, time. An easy way to support a cause you believe in is to write a check or make a reoccurring donation. Everybody that I know in the social profit arena could use resources.
And you should, um, check out the 990s and the annual reports and those kinds of things on, um, organizational websites. Um, talent, you know, you're a podcaster, maybe you could start a podcast that raises awareness on behalf of or with an organization. So what is it that you're doing in the world and can that organization use your talent and donate that to a committee or board service?
So that's kind of how I think about ways to contribute. And those are all different accessibility levels, right? Right. I love that. Yeah. That's wonderful. I would also say, one of the things that is most overlooked, and I should have said it first is, we all have the ability to influence things in our own lives.
Talk to people, get educated, in a way that helps them broaden their understanding of an issue. That's great. Yeah. Well, Carmen, I just wanted to thank you for your time and your dedication to this area. I know you've been working in this field for many years. Yes. And your footprint is still ongoing, so thank you for that.
You're welcome. Thank you for having me. It's an honor.
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