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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Cody Buriff
I want to ask you this. I know you meet with a lot of men and a lot of the men you meet with also are dealing with maybe not the same church hurt, but similar or give our audience, give us a couple of like thoughts around like, what are people, what are you running into? What are guys experiencing? Yeah. Yeah. What are you seeing?
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. yeah, I'm seeing a lot of the ache of what they long for, what they long for the church to be, what they've received in the past. And then maybe some of the frustration of man, like I'm just not, I'm not experiencing what I'd hoped. You know, there's men who obviously just even church going men who are just like trying to find, man, I need to find some deeper connection. Bible studies are wonderful. Like,
These things are great, but like, I really want a deeper brotherhood, you know? I think in this spot, Cody, like we need to talk a little bit too about belonging. because that is deeply woven into who we are as humans, right? Like we want to have a tribe, if you will, to belong to. Yeah. Right. And I think in a very healthy way and can sometimes be unhealthy, like our local churches become that space where we even ask, right?
And this is something I'm aware of too, because what I didn't share about the story was that I not only stepped away from vocational church ministry, but for a period of probably about two or three years, I didn't go to church. Okay. It's a big deal. And I didn't feel outcast from the church we were a part of actually like there was healing in that too, that church sent me out with blessing and like, Hey, go see this guy. Like he is, he is a worthy man to be with, you know,
Cody Buriff
It's a big deal.
Michael Krommendyk
And that was beautiful, but I knew that I needed to find that community, that sense of belonging elsewhere. Okay. So back to the belonging piece, as it relates to church, like, I think there's a lot of times, sadly, with a lot of churches where we realized there's a belonging measuring stick, like there's things that we have to do and be to feel like we belong to a community. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
That doesn't sound very different than what you described as your first kind of experience. Yeah. Things you have to do to belong.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. And I think there's a part of that that's true and necessary, but I hope part of that belonging is that your questions can also be sat with, right? I think the men that I meet with Cody is honestly, a lot of them come in like I was 13 years ago saying, am I going insane? Have I lost it? Am I like a heretic? Did I lose it?
Cody Buriff
Wow.
Michael Krommendyk
Like, because all my church is like saying this thing and going in this direction and like believing these things. I don't know where I am with that. Like there's solid core things that I do believe. I believe God is love. I believe Jesus is son. Like, I don't know about all the other stuff. Right? Like, and honestly, what I've found coming back to the men in particular is like, when those things aren't received well from our tribe, from our local church,
Like we can very easily just start spinning. Like I'm supposed to be leading my family and I'm spinning in my faith and my church doesn't have the space or the bandwidth or even the know how to sit with me in that. What do I do with that? And what I can say this just for this, like a shameless plug, that's the other thing that Restoration Project had become for me as well is like, man, this
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
Even though I'll tell you what, when I first came to Restoration Project, I did not want to be around a bunch of church guys. But I found out pretty quickly that this was a little different and this was a space where I could honestly just let my guard down. And, and yeah, with a couple of guys, even the first year I was a part of Restoration Project, ⁓ couple of guys that just offered some curiosity and said, Hey, like, me your story. And,
be able to receive and not judged in that space, to be able to come to an organization that said, Hey, kind of like you said earlier, like we go to different churches here around here. Like there's, we've got some, we've got some Methodists, we've got some Pentecostals over here. We've got some evangelicals over here and we've got some Orthodox guys over here too. And like, and all are welcome. Yeah. Right. And we're not going to focus our time on the things that we disagree on. We're actually going to like,
like hone in on the things that we can look at each other in the eyes and say, yeah, me too.
Cody Buriff
Totally. So sounds like a lot of the guys you're running into and a lot of what you've walked through and I can say I've walked through. I'm to throw out a term that I think is. It used to be more triggering for people, and maybe I think it's it's losing some of that and gaining some validity, but deconstruction. I think there was a period of time where the idea of people deconstructing their faith like freaked out pastors and churches. ⁓
And there's probably some still that like think that that's like a terrible thing or something. But yeah, as I understand it, deconstruction is not demolition.
Michael Krommendyk
No, yeah.
Cody Buriff
Those are two different things. And some people do demolish. But what you're talking about is the willingness to ask the questions, to engage the doubts, to engage the feelings and the experiences and deconstruct what we actually believe for a reason. Yeah. And that is to reconstruct. To move towards God and to move towards each other in ways that are, know, you deconstruct when you find like there is a problem with the house.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
You know, if the framing is prodded, you need to deconstruct a little bit in order to build it back stronger and more correctly.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah.
Yeah. I think one of the kindest things, yeah, totally. I'm there with you, like as far as the deconstruction.
being on staff at a church or like a campus ministry and like being in the midst of that, that'll do it too, right? Like that's, that's a lot, but deconstruction as a whole, think one of the kindest things that somebody, that somebody said to me when I was in the midst of that was like, Michael, yes, there's a lot of things that are falling down. There's a lot of parts of the house that don't serve a purpose anymore. My spiritual director actually said the house is burning. Okay.
The structure, the facades, the walls, the drywall, all of it is, crumbling. It's not because it's bad, but because it's actually just not working for you in this season of life. And I think we need to, like, there are all these peripheral things that may not always work for you. And that's okay to say, Hey, is this still working? What my spiritual director helped me with. She asked me this question. She said, Michael, what's left? Like once things fall down.
What is left? What do you believe in? Like what is at the core of like, yeah, this is I'm not going to mess with this much. And for me, honestly, Cody, like in that season, it was like, well, I know I'm loved by God.
There's a bunch of these principles and tenants and theological ideas and discussions and social perspectives that I don't really know. right now, like what I do know is I'm loved by God. Period. Stop. Like end of sentence. So like that's a huge part of deconstruction is like, yes, like we, and there's grief in it, right? There's grief in like all the things that are falling.
There's deep questions that like, yes, hopefully you have somebody to walk with in those things. but there is also, what can I cling to right now? Who can I cling to right now? because the following season hopefully is a reconstruction of sorts and like, what, what do I build upon? Right. And maybe some of it is, some of it might be even things that were on the ground.
that had fallen to the ground that like, they didn't work. Well, maybe I can come back to that.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. I want to jump to that in a minute because I want to hear kind of a little bit more of your recent, like what's been going on for you. But yeah, I think I'm aware as I think about deconstruction and I think about seasons and you know, I'll just speak for myself. When I was in my twenties, like I knew all the answers. Like I was the ministry guy. I worked in ministry my whole life as an adult. And yeah, man, I knew all the answers and I think there comes a
point in a man's life, you know, when a lot of the things that we have survived on and have helped us move throughout our lives well, stop working and that includes our spiritual lives. Yeah. That includes our faith and some of those pieces we realize we actually don't know all the answers. And we get to a point where we like want to throw up our hands. We're like, do I know anything?
Michael Krommendyk
Hahaha
Cody Buriff
And yeah, sometimes you do feel like a heretic. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the. I just want to name this that there are. At least two different ways guys go with that. Probably at least three, I'll say three, we'll see how this goes, right? I think I think some guys dive headlong into that and run away from everything. They let the house burn down and they let everything.
to ash and they never come back. They want nothing to do with it ever again. And the pain is too great to continue engaging it. I think there are guys who the pain is too great and they don't engage it. And so they spray water all over that house that's on fire and pretend like it's not on fire and just kind of go back and essentially play church. It's the word I'll use for the rest of their lives.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
And then I think there are guys that engage it and they, they let things burn that need to burn. Yeah. But then they pick up the pieces and they're not done with it. And they're willing to engage the pain and disappointment and discouragement and keep moving.
Michael Krommendyk
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that feels well stated. It feels like it's, I'll be honest, it's close to home for me. I think, especially when you talk about that first category, because I'm sure you could do the same thing, but I know I have dear, dear, dear people in my life who are in that first category.
Yeah. And it was just too much for them. And again, their stories are different. And honestly, there's part of me that says, man, I get it. I get it. Like the church chewed you up and spit you out. And I'm sorry.
I hope that things shift there, you know, but yeah, that's the reality. Right. think the second category is. Yeah, it's. It feels like a scary one to me, like because the recognition and the awareness of like, yes, there's this hurt. And I wonder if what we're talking about there, Cody, and I'm not trying to broad stroke any of this stuff, but like how much of that is just like.
Man, I'm in a, whether it's a part of the country or a community that there is no one here that is even close to like having experienced the same things I've been experiencing in my deconstruction. And that's something that I think, especially over the last couple of weeks, as I've been thinking about this journey of healing for me, like, but by the grace of God and by some like truly amazing men and women.
that have stepped into my life and have looked me in the eyes and saying, Michael, you're okay. It's okay. You don't have to do this. You don't have to be here. I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. Yeah. But I recognize like the sad part of that second category, Cody, is that like, I think in a lot of the cases, there's not many people there. Like our healing, our journey of healing in this and not be done in isolation.
It's just not possible. It's not. And like, even like, I think about like that, story, like you just said, the hypothetical story of the guy who's like that, he's just in the house, it's burnt down and he's trying to make it look as good as possible. Yeah. And he's completely.
Cody Buriff
Both of those guys are completely alone. And one guy is headlong into it, the other guy is pretending that he's not.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. Yeah. And, ⁓ my gosh. Like I just, my heart is so huge for those people and it aches for them. Honestly. Yeah. I think the third category for me is, it takes people, it takes a community. takes people to, to come alongside of you. And sometimes those people don't, maybe don't live in the same
city or region or whatever that you do. I have to be honest, like when all that went down at that church on the West Coast, I had nobody to call or talk to. I came across some dude's ministry in freaking Alabama that was talking about grace. And I listened to some of his messages and I looked him up on Facebook and I said, hey, I'm going through some stuff now. Can I call you? And like that week, that guy said, yes, call me.
I've never talked to that man again in my life, Cody, but I'm grateful for him because like he was a guy just like, yes. And he sat with me and he wept with me. Yeah. Wow. So reach out, please reach out and find those spaces because really the difference between that and the third part where you're like, yes, you're taking the courageous steps, but you're taking the courageous steps.
in a place around people in a culture and an atmosphere maybe that like is more conducive to your healing.
And that like, I don't know if that's as rare to find as we think it is. I think, I feel like given the place where the big C church is these days, it feels like it's a bigger community. It grows bigger by the day, both sadly and thankfully. Right. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. No, I think something is shifting both in the dissatisfaction that people are experiencing and the dissatisfaction that they're willing to name and therefore the space for that to exist. Yeah. If that makes sense. Michael, what has been true here? We'll just say the last like year or two or so something shifted for you. As I understand it.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
And how would you put words around that?
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. Like I said, like there's been quite a season, I think for me where I didn't go to church for about three years. And honestly, I tried.
Cause my like my habit was just like, this is where we got to be. And there was this one particular season where I did, I tried and I, but I would drive to the church. would open my door and start walking into the building and my body was telling me, no, no, no, it's not time. But I kept doing that for like probably a couple months because I was just like, no, like this is where I'm supposed to be. like,
Cody Buriff
Okay.
Michael Krommendyk
I want to have an answer. This is vulnerable. Like I want to have an answer when somebody says, Hey, where are going to church?
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
Right? Because that in our culture feels very, for those of us who have deconstructed or need time away from the church, that is like the most scary question because it's not just a curiosity about, where are you connected? But it feels like, it feels like, hey, where are you are with Jesus right now? What is your relationship with Jesus like? And that's measured by, hey, where you going to church?
Cody Buriff
Which is worth putting a finger on because you weren't attending a Little Sea Church. But you hadn't left the Big Sea. Like as I hear you and as I know you, like you were actually engaging with the Lord with other men in deeply significant ways. Yeah. Maybe more significant than you ever had in a Little Sea Church up to that point.
Michael Krommendyk
Hmm. And we're Yeah. And I think in that, like you're spot on, I think in that season, I probably, for people that could go with me to those places, I probably would have said, my church actually looks a lot different right now than it used to. Like it's not a, it's not a Sunday morning gathering. It's not a weekend gathering, but I have my wife and I both through all of this, since being here in Colorado, I've had a very small group of people who have journeyed with us and who we've seen.
once, sometimes twice a week and just lived life with them. And they have left with us and been with us in those spaces. And they, like for a period of time, I would say that these people are my church. And I would say the same about like the people that I was getting to know at ReStory, the staff there, obviously the people here at Restoration Project. Yeah, it really honestly felt for the first time that the church was people for me.
We talk about that all the time, but it felt like the church was people and like the people were lifting up me and my family in the midst of this time. And yeah, so I wasn't able to go back to a building or service. And to use our football analogy, was because man, there was still pain in my shoulder, right? Like there was, I was not ready to jump in the game and start throwing passes. my body was saying no, and I couldn't push through it.
And I've actually like probably more in recent years just began to listen and say, okay, I'm not going to push. And I think the journey, so it's hard, it's difficult and there's not a, there's not a path. There's not a, a perfect path, but the path for me anyways, just involved a ton of really kind people. And then honestly, like for me, and this was only like a couple of months ago, the way I explained it to you was like, I woke up figuratively, I woke up.
And just kind of started moving my, you know, quarterback's arm around and just realizing that like, wait a second, this feels a little different. Like there's been, there's been some work done both personally and in community. So I, yeah, I like, I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna step in. I'm going to try another Sunday morning service and looks totally different as far as like the style and the like.
the way they engage worship and, but it has like, knew very early on, like I think within the first couple of weeks, two or three weeks, I began to like sit in a church service with a bunch of people that I didn't know and felt uncomfortable, you know, socially, but like I began, I remember saying to myself, like this actually feels kind to me. And I think I didn't put my finger on it before, but like church services for me,
They weren't kind. They weren't where I needed to be. My body was still aching. And like my relationship with church continues to shift. Right. And I would also say real quick before I kind of conclude that idea. Yeah. There was a deep wrestling Cody within me in all that. Right. Because I'm still interacting with the church. I'm still interacting. Man, I...
In my work with three story, I do work with pastors. sit with them in spaces, but also like we gather from time to time and I sit with coffee with them. so, and I think for me, I had to recognize that like that was, that was big C love for me. Like that was like, still believe in her. I still believe that she's the light of the world. Like I still believe that she's a city on a hill, you know, I'm not going to let go of that, that aspect of it. But for me right now, I can't.
connect in that specific way. Yeah. And so I think what I would want to say is I understand like my story is unique. Like it's not the same as yours or anybody else's, but I would probably just say, Hey, just take a moment and take some breaths and just be aware of like what's going on in you emotionally, like in your body, as you step back into those, as you begin to take those courageous steps, right.
I'm going to engage this part or I'm going to engage this conversation. Okay. It's going into this direction. What am I, what am I aware of for myself right now? know, cause our body holds those things. Yeah. And we're in those spaces where our body is like, we're feeling like the tightness of the chest or our shortness of breath or like our shoulders or like, you know, whatever. There's nothing actually like
specific about what actually is going on, it's, man, what am I holding right now? What's the bigger story here? You know?
Cody Buriff
Well, and I'll say this as well. Like a lot of the guys who are listening have experienced this in some way, or form. Yeah. And a lot of the guys who are listening are surrounded by people who are experiencing this. And so maybe this goes without saying, but I'm not going to let it go without saying if a guy comes to you and he's like experiencing doubts or experiencing some disappointment.
Michael Krommendyk
Thanks.
Cody Buriff
or discouragement or just not sure exactly how like, however his story looks, right? It's probably not the time to like, try to shame him into coming to church every Sunday to a local church. It's probably not the time to like push him on, you know, and try to push him back into a space where there's, there is pain.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah.
Cody Buriff
How would you say Michael, a guy should consider his posture as he sits with men who are experiencing this kind of church hurt as you put it?
Michael Krommendyk
I think just a lot of openness, a lot of grace.
I think we need to know that faith is different than certainty. Like you mentioned that earlier about deconstruction, right? That, man, I just have a lot of questions. We're talking about an infinite God. We're talking about a God whom we can't fully comprehend and know. And we're talking about a Bible that is an ancient book. These are hard things.
And faith is actually saying, don't know everything. Not that I got it all figured out. think, and it sounds like you're very similar in that, like, think that's what I assumed faith was. When I was losing my faith, I was actually not losing my faith. I was losing my certainty. Right? Yeah. So sitting with another man with that perspective of like, okay, he's uncertain.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
He's not as sure about these specific facts as he was before. That does not mean he's necessarily losing his faith.
Cody Buriff
Right. Might actually mean he's getting closer to his.
Michael Krommendyk
Exactly. Yeah. And like we should learn to be comfortable with, man, I don't know. That sounds tough. I don't have an answer for you, dude. I'm here. You and I are maybe not in the same place with all this, but I'm here. Like I'll be present with you. I'll sit with you in it. Man, some of the things you experienced, that was tough.
That was tough. And I think that's really what it is, right? It's just like, and it really kind of goes against our, sometimes our natural reaction of like fixing and let's get into theological discussion. Let's say, you haven't been to my church yet. So there are times, and this is not just about this, but so many things.
Cody Buriff
Yep.
Michael Krommendyk
There are times as men when we don't need answers. We may think we do like, cause that's the way our brain works sometimes, but there's times where we are much better and really truly need just presence. Just witness as we say around here. Yeah. Not answers.
Cody Buriff
Good. It's good. Michael, thank you for your vulnerability and sharing your story. I appreciate it. I think a lot of guys are going to appreciate hearing what you had to say. so thank you for sharing with us.
Michael Krommendyk
Cody, if I may just, have a couple of things for men. First of all, I mean, certainly reach out to reach out to us from a Restoration Project side. We realized that you certainly may be feeling alone in some of this stuff and we want to do anything we can to come alongside of you. And we are happy to stand under gap and sit with you in those things. do that on the coaching side of my other job with Restorey and then
If you're listening to this within the first couple of months that it comes out, am actively working on getting a group together of people who have experienced like spiritual harm. Um, and, um, yeah, working on, on that with a colleague of mine at ReStory men and women. Um, so it'd be a mixed group, but if that's something you're interested, especially even at the beginning of 2026, we'd love to get you connected with that. So reach out to me, michael@restory.life, or this one is maybe easier to remember. michael@restorationproject.net.
Cody Buriff
Well, thank you for doing that. I love that you're doing that with people. You guys are sitting in the dirt with people. Super cool. All right, guys, well, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Restorative Man podcast. And so I'll bid you go be restorative men until next time.