Tina Huang

We talk to soap star/writer/producer extraordinaire Tina Huang!

Show Notes

Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest Movement
Let Me Run This By You: Rejection
Interview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company,  Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez this, and I'm Gina Pulice.

2 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of

2 (20s):
It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

0 (34s):
You

2 (35s):
Part of the building.

1 (36s):
Okay,

2 (37s):
Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.

1 (41s):
I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.

2 (45s):
That is true. Good morning.

1 (48s):
Good. Margie,

2 (50s):
Your makeup looks amazing.

1 (53s):
Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?

2 (59s):
Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,

1 (1m 10s):
The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.

2 (1m 15s):
Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.

2 (1m 58s):
So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.

1 (2m 0s):
Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.

1 (2m 40s):
She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash

2 (3m 23s):
Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it

1 (3m 44s):
Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop

2 (4m 6s):
Back. Yeah, dude.

1 (4m 7s):
So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.

1 (4m 48s):
In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social

2 (5m 22s):
Media. What

1 (5m 23s):
She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So

2 (5m 50s):
Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.

2 (6m 40s):
If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.

1 (6m 57s):
Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.

1 (7m 43s):
And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,

2 (8m 0s):
Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,

1 (8m 14s):
The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,

2 (8m 45s):
Oh,

1 (8m 46s):
There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.

1 (9m 32s):
Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.

2 (10m 9s):
Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.

2 (10m 50s):
Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So

1 (11m 8s):
I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.

2 (11m 45s):
Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.

2 (12m 43s):
They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.

1 (12m 46s):
It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,

2 (13m 8s):
Right? Yes.

1 (13m 9s):
And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.

2 (13m 16s):
And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.

2 (14m 10s):
And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.

1 (14m 17s):
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.

2 (14m 48s):
Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.

1 (15m 22s):
Yes. Yeah.

2 (15m 23s):
I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not

1 (15m 58s):
Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make

2 (16m 38s):
Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.

2 (17m 23s):
So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign

1 (17m 48s):
Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.

2 (17m 57s):
Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We

1 (18m 1s):
Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.

2 (18m 9s):
Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.

2 (18m 51s):
That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.

1 (19m 13s):
Hey,

2 (19m 14s):
Let run this by

1 (19m 15s):
You today is about rejection.

2 (19m 25s):
I love it.

1 (19m 26s):
I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?

1 (20m 10s):
And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM

2 (20m 18s):
Yeah.

1 (20m 19s):
Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.

2 (20m 35s):
Oh my god.

1 (20m 37s):
Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.

2 (21m 0s):
I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.

1 (21m 8s):
Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What

2 (21m 32s):
The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?

1 (21m 36s):
They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.

1 (22m 21s):
It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy

2 (22m 45s):
Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.

2 (23m 24s):
So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.

2 (24m 6s):
And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.

2 (24m 50s):
Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.

2 (25m 31s):
And that just feels shitty.

1 (25m 33s):
It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.

1 (26m 16s):
So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,

2 (26m 26s):
And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.

1 (27m 13s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,

0 (27m 47s):
I'm

2 (27m 47s):
Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just

4 (28m 7s):
Yeah, yeah,

2 (28m 8s):
Because Yeah, go ahead.

4 (28m 11s):
No, most recently just two, but yes.

2 (28m 13s):
Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.

2 (28m 55s):
It is not a joke. Thank

4 (28m 56s):
You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut

2 (28m 58s):
Out. Yeah, thank you.

1 (29m 0s):
So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.

4 (29m 34s):
Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're

2 (29m 40s):
Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.

4 (29m 41s):
I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.

2 (29m 54s):
Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was

4 (30m 2s):
It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.

2 (30m 24s):
Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?

4 (30m 53s):
Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.

1 (31m 14s):
So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.

4 (31m 26s):
Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.

4 (32m 9s):
Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but

2 (32m 11s):
Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.

4 (32m 27s):
So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.

2 (32m 51s):
Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I

4 (32m 56s):
Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.

2 (32m 60s):
Like,

4 (33m 1s):
And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh

2 (33m 12s):
My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's

4 (33m 23s):
Harder when you get older.

2 (33m 25s):
No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?

4 (33m 34s):
She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm

2 (34m 3s):
Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,

4 (34m 7s):
Right.

2 (34m 7s):
Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.

4 (34m 10s):
I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?

4 (34m 53s):
Yeah,

1 (34m 54s):
Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?

4 (35m 9s):
Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.

2 (35m 30s):
Oh my, my God.

4 (35m 32s):
It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So

1 (36m 5s):
Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?

4 (36m 33s):
Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh

2 (37m 12s):
Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.

4 (37m 20s):
Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.

1 (37m 28s):
13. I, No, 13. Really young, really

4 (37m 30s):
Young.

1 (37m 31s):
13. Do that on your own.

4 (37m 32s):
So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute

2 (37m 55s):
Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?

4 (38m 7s):
So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,

2 (38m 48s):
My god, all the pressure. And

4 (38m 49s):
Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model

2 (38m 55s):
A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.

4 (39m 10s):
I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But

2 (39m 30s):
I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.

2 (40m 13s):
Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,

4 (40m 16s):
So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.

4 (40m 56s):
Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.

4 (41m 36s):
So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA

1 (41m 56s):
Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.

4 (42m 17s):
So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.

4 (43m 3s):
So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.

2 (43m 14s):
Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.

4 (43m 18s):
Oh boy.

2 (43m 19s):
I bet was great. Whatever it was.

4 (43m 22s):
The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been

1 (44m 2s):
Saying

4 (44m 2s):
I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.

2 (44m 6s):
Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know

4 (44m 10s):
It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.

2 (44m 14s):
Oh yeah, that's

1 (44m 15s):
Exactly what I did. Terrible.

2 (44m 20s):
Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,

4 (44m 46s):
So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,

2 (45m 4s):
Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like

4 (45m 8s):
At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,

1 (45m 39s):
This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.

2 (45m 48s):
No. Was

1 (45m 49s):
It nerve wracking?

4 (45m 51s):
Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.

2 (46m 9s):
So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?

4 (46m 20s):
No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,

2 (46m 39s):
So

1 (46m 40s):
I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?

4 (47m 5s):
You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.

4 (47m 45s):
Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,

2 (47m 55s):
I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.

4 (47m 57s):
Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.

2 (48m 23s):
Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.

4 (48m 57s):
So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.

4 (49m 38s):
I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.

4 (50m 25s):
And wait

2 (50m 26s):
A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.

4 (50m 41s):
17, Yeah.

2 (50m 42s):
You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?

4 (50m 57s):
I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.

4 (51m 36s):
And

2 (51m 37s):
That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so

4 (51m 55s):
I really wanted to go

2 (51m 56s):
To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?

4 (52m 2s):
Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was

2 (52m 31s):
All these like, what a power move.

4 (52m 35s):
I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.

4 (53m 18s):
I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my

2 (53m 31s):
God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.

4 (54m 1s):
I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's

1 (54m 23s):
So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.

4 (55m 3s):
No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.

2 (55m 6s):
Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?

4 (55m 20s):
Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.

4 (56m 11s):
And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is

2 (56m 38s):
Like

4 (56m 39s):
Directing and design, like great fallback. But

2 (56m 43s):
Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.

2 (57m 23s):
And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.

4 (57m 45s):
Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.

4 (58m 29s):
So yeah. So cool.

1 (58m 31s):
Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?

4 (59m 3s):
You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,

2 (59m 27s):
Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.

4 (1h 0m 2s):
Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?

1 (1h 0m 15s):
I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.

4 (1h 0m 55s):
That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.

2 (1h 1m 28s):
Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.

2 (1h 2m 10s):
So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.

4 (1h 2m 46s):
No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.

4 (1h 3m 30s):
And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.

2 (1h 3m 45s):
And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?

2 (1h 4m 25s):
We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.

4 (1h 4m 34s):
I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.

4 (1h 5m 24s):
I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,

2 (1h 5m 51s):
No, it puts more work. It's more work,

4 (1h 5m 54s):
More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely.

1 (1h 6m 2s):
And if you could go back in time, if you could go back in time, you'd say to him, Oh, well you're not shattering I acting exactly like every fucking asshole theater teacher, Right. Who's told women things like that before.

4 (1h 6m 15s):
Yeah. But it's, it's an awkward thing to approach cuz you know, they're not trying to be rude or, or not trying to be demeaning. No.

2 (1h 6m 24s):
It's a systems problem. It's a lack of understanding. It's a systems problem. Yeah. So, so now what I've, I've, and maybe you do this too, and maybe Gina, you do it like, now I say like, oh, like let's ask the question, I wonder why that stereotype exists in the first place and who is that benefiting? And let's like, start there. Like, let's go a little bit under the compliment sandwich and see like, oh, but like, wouldn't it be awesome And no one's gonna say this at the, I don't know, maybe kids now do say like, Hey, wouldn't it be awesome teacher, boss, mother, father? If we could get to the bottom of why that shit started in the first place and who benefits from it. Because then we could instead of like, but for me, someone gives me a compliment and I'm 17, I go, Oh yeah, I'm breaking stereotypes all the time.

2 (1h 7m 11s):
And that's great. And then you realize it's a heavy burden. It's a heavy burden to Yeah. Yeah.

4 (1h 7m 17s):
And it also tells you that they're still looking at that, that that person is still looking you, at you through the white gays, the, the framing your success on the white gays, right? Or, or the male gaze, or you know, whatever it would be, you know, the patriarchy. It's kind of like this idea, it reminds you of the framework that's there that you're limited to working in. And you will only be seen through that lens. And that's a, that's a a different, that's a, that's, that reminds you of the, the trap you're in. Right? So it's, it's interesting. I mean, because if you're, if your only framework is white American theater, that's how you're gonna frame it. You shatter stereotypes instead of you're a part of American theater.

4 (1h 7m 59s):
You, you are the future of American theater. Right. Which is a different, a different way of seeing it. So anyway, there was that, and then the other time you're asking what they did, what happened to another anecdote was when my mother was, I was my mom's caregiver when she was sort of in her final day, she passed and my manager called me, This is not theater school, but at the time, a manager called me and he said, you know, we we're talking about schedule. And then he said, Hey, can I ask you a question? I said, Sure. Thinking he was gonna ask me, How you doing? Your mother just passed away. He knew for years I was caring for her. And I said, and I said, Sure, go ahead. And he says, to get fat since your mom died.

4 (1h 8m 42s):
And I had, I had, I had gained weight, but because I, while I was taking care of my mom, it was like, you know, she was dying. So I had gotten on anti-anxiety pills at the time, right? So I gained weight and I was so shocked he said that. And I said, Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I actually have put on weight. And I said, But I'm not gonna apologize for that because my mom died. And like that's that I, I'm not gonna beat myself up while I'm grieving as well about that. And then shock you, fuck you. I know. And then he backpedals and he goes, Well I'm gonna get in trouble for saying all this. Then he backpedaled and he said, you know, because heroin skinny isn't hot either.

4 (1h 9m 26s):
So he tried to say like, being fat isn't good and being or overweight isn't good and being skinny isn't good. So I said to him, So when am I gonna hit the perfect note for you? Are you gonna, I I'm just not gonna, I said, I'm not gonna guilt myself over this cuz the next you're gonna know you're gonna, someone's gonna tell you that my nose is too big and then I'm gonna get a nose job. And then, and then I said, and then I'm gonna get my cheat jaw done. I'm gonna, all this stuff done that I'm insecure about, like when does it end? I said, when I go in the room, I deliver myself and that's what I'm gonna deliver the best and with the most confidence. And if you start to make me feel bad about everything, other little thing that's wrong with me, I'm just gonna be like every other broken person here. Do you know what I mean? Like,

1 (1h 10m 4s):
God bless.

2 (1h 10m 5s):
Yeah. We don't

1 (1h 10m 5s):
Hear super saying that. Like, not everybody would have all the wherewithal to say that at a young age

4 (1h 10m 11s):
Especially. He just hit, he just hit a button, you know? I was also like, I, I had had a, when my mom died, I was like, New policy. Yeah. No more

2 (1h 10m 19s):
Assets. Yeah. Well the other thing, no more assholes. The other thing is like, I wonder, and I don't know this person, they could be a perfectly lovely person, but I wonder if he would've said that to a white man client. Like, would it even be a thing? Would it even be, you know, like, you know, did someone say to Russell Crow, did his manager say that when he put on weight? No. Probably said, Wow, you, you could play anything. You're so diverse. You could play Russell, you could play, it doesn't matter what, you know what I mean? But if it's a woman

4 (1h 10m 47s):
Frazier whale,

2 (1h 10m 48s):
Right, right.

1 (1h 10m 49s):
Yes. Oh, which we haven't talked about on here yet cuz I haven't seen it, but I'm, I'm dying to see that. So,

2 (1h 10m 54s):
So

1 (1h 10m 54s):
Something tells me that you are, when it came time to end and NYU did showcase or whatever, you weren't like putting all your hopes and dreams in something that the school was gonna offer you or not offer you. So tell us about like when you were launching and how you made your, how you made your moves.

4 (1h 11m 16s):
Okay. Woo girl. So we didn't do, I don't remember doing an industry night at nyu and I think I remember feeling like we were not really set off into the world for success. I mean, the most valuable thing I gained from theater school is all the amazing artists that I met there and all the amazing people that I still work. I have a theater company in Los Angeles called Ammunition Theater Company. I'm one of the founding members. We just did a world premier of Carla Changes, new play revenge porn. It, it's the people that I've met there. Those artists are, that's what I walked away from college with and people that makers that I'll always run into and work with for the rest of my life.

4 (1h 11m 59s):
The school itself, amazing training. Very hard, very, very hard. We were scheduled up to the hill. We had to schedule in pee breaks and stuff. I was, I was in a program that everyone lovingly dubbed the suicide track, which is a terrible thing to call anything in college, but that's what we called it because it was acting, directing and design and, but we didn't get, we didn't get set up. Like we couldn't, we weren't even allowed to really mingle with the film department, which would make sense if there was a marriage between the acting schools and the film departments because NYU had one of the finest film departments, film schools in the country, if not the world.

4 (1h 12m 40s):
So it was one of those things that I felt was odd cuz they wanted to protect like the conservatory program and like, you know, we're real actors, we're not doing film. We're, you know what I mean? There was like a weird, you could only audition for things outside of school after your sophomore year. You could only, you know, there were rules that I, I understand, but to some degree. But in terms of setting up your graduates for a working life, that was not the concern for, it's

2 (1h 13m 12s):
As if they designed conservatories to be so great and insular and amazingly exclusive. And then once you graduate, your life stops and that's it. And there is no, like, you will just be stuck at 1920 forever. And they never like imagined you'd have to actually get a job outside of the a conservatory. It's like, no dude,

4 (1h 13m 36s):
I wish, yeah, I wish there was like a business of acting. I wish there was a how to do your taxes as an actor. I, I wish there was learning about a pass through an S corp. I wish there was like, you know, just the nuts and bolts of how to be an adult as an actor going forward. You know, we had a, we had a theater for non-profit class, which I was like, great, that's, I do that now, but I'm also like, I think I could have figured that out at some point.

2 (1h 14m 3s):
So you grad, you graduated and you were kind of like, how did it go, Tina? Were you like, I'm, did you stay New York? When did you come to la? I mean, I'm mindful of time, but here's what I wanna know how you launched yourself and because I just probably believe it was stunning, right? The way you launched yourself.

4 (1h 14m 23s):
Well, I graduated and then I moved to the Bay Area, which was like a very strange little blip. And so I went there and I'm not, I'm not, I don't regret it, but I was with my partner who I ended up, we ended up getting engaged and, and he was going to Stanford grad school. So that was a rough period. But I did a lot of theater and I feel like I did learn a lot about myself as an artist there and how to be independent on that in that way and, you know, creating high art, you know. But I got a movie. I, I, I ended up getting an agent in San Francisco and got a movie which ended up taking me down to Los Angeles.

4 (1h 15m 4s):
I joined the Union, I was the lead of this film. It went to a bunch of festivals and in LA what I ended, what's it

2 (1h 15m 11s):
Called? What's it called? Just so we can look it up.

4 (1h 15m 13s):
It's silly. It's called Pig Hunt.

2 (1h 15m 15s):
Great. I don't care that it's silly. I'll take it. I'll watch it.

4 (1h 15m 21s):
Yeah. It's just like a, a fun monster movie. So yeah, I did that and then the, just the work wasn't enough in San Francisco to, to keep it afloat. So I thought now's the time to start going to Los Angeles and I started dipping my toe in Los Angeles. And how I did that was back then they had casting director workshops. You guys know those, right? But I was interning, so I would be working and at those things and getting those for free and meeting casting directors and somehow getting appointments. And then I started a fake, a fake management company. Oh my gosh, should I be saying this with like,

2 (1h 16m 1s):
Yes you should. Cause you can always edit it out later if you change your mind. And also a lot of, a lot of badass people have done this. Fyi. Yeah.

4 (1h 16m 10s):
So I started a fake management company called Fisher Management. I made a logo and I was interning at a casting office as well, a couple casting offices. So I saw how the submissions were coming in and I saw we would de pile cpi, you know, piles for agencies and passes. And I remember I would re, I'd be a reader for the casting office. And so they gave me a couple auditions, took a bunch of acting classes. My first agent in LA came from an acting class. A teacher said, You should have an agent and this is who you should meet with. And the fake management company. I started just submitting to things like, you know, submitting through.

4 (1h 16m 50s):
Someone else had the breakdowns. Cause you used to be able to get the breakdowns too. And I would format it correctly, like I learned at the, at the casting office. And then I'd just show up at the, get the appointments. I changed my voicemail. I didn't have my own voice. I, you know, you've reached Fisher Management to reach any of our clients. Please leave a message after the beep or whatever it is. And yep, that's what, that's what I did. And I got my first few jobs that way.

1 (1h 17m 15s):
So we need to write, the three of us need to write a pilot that's like not quite a take on Breaking Bad, but it's fault. It's mirroring this idea of like how you just have to grab it for yourself. And we could be having our fake, you know, management company and swindling people and we get real evil and we turn like, you know, threatening people if we don't get jobs, we

4 (1h 17m 38s):
Smoke a little meth,

1 (1h 17m 39s):
We smoke just for fun. Just on the side,

4 (1h 17m 43s):
On the,

1 (1h 17m 44s):
I was in the Bay area to after college, like, so from, yeah, I lived in Oakland from like 97 to 2002. So I, I'm just curious what theater companies you worked with and what kind of stuff you did there?

4 (1h 17m 59s):
Intersection for the Arts and Camp Santo. So I worked with them for a couple shows, which was really great. And word for word theater company as well. We did a Amy Tan show that ended up going Yeah. You know, word for word. So Sue and Joanne and all of them, they're so wonderful. And we, we did a, we did an Amy Tan show that ended up like kept getting revived for like five years. We went to France with the show. We toured California. We, yeah, so, so those two companies. Yeah.

1 (1h 18m 29s):
So since we only have a few minutes, I wanna ask,

4 (1h 18m 35s):
I hope my story is making sense. I'm sorry, but

1 (1h 18m 37s):
Oh, no, no, no. A lot Perfect sense. Percent. Perfect. Yeah, perfect sense. So do you feel like where you're at now in your career that you're, nobody's ever scratching all of the itches, but that like you're scratching the amount of itches that you wanna scratch and like, what do you wanna do next and where do you see yourself going?

4 (1h 18m 59s):
Such a good question. Well, there's a lot of things going on. I mean, during the pandemic, I also, you know, it was like, how are we gonna work when everything was frozen? And we, I just got rid of so much of my clothing and turned my closet into a, you know, a recording studio and started, got a voiceover agent and started doing voiceovers, which was really, really, has been really fun for me. I also have a production company called One-to-One Productions with my business partner Carla Mosley, who's also a soap actress, but she also went to nyu. She's incredibly talented. But we've been producing films and short films of, of women of color and people we believe in, writers we believe in. And we, we currently have a pilot that we produce by Carolyn Rat Ray, and that is in Urban World Film Festival in New York.

4 (1h 19m 49s):
Next week it was at Seattle Queer Film Festival. It was just at Outfest in la So it's been doing well. Am I scratching the itches? I mean, I'm doing a lot. I would say I just did this play Revenge porn or The Story of a Body by Carla Ching. And I got to be, I feel like it's, I was the lead of, I was the lead of the title, the lead of the show. I mean, it was an ensemble piece, but because everybody was so incredible, it was the first time I felt like seen fully as an artist and, you know, I was like, I, it, it ended like a week ago. It closed and I, my heart

2 (1h 20m 29s):
Broken. Yes. But, but you did, I mean, I just love hearing that you were seen fully as an, as an artist. Yeah. That is like fucking amazing.

4 (1h 20m 42s):
Yeah, I'll tell you what it was, you know, we spend so much of our time feeling dissatisfied in the work that we're in, Right. And what we're doing every day. And it was just so good to feel like, like it's gonna make me cry thinking about like, I, I just got to do it. You know what I mean? Like, I got to be like the fe a female breaking bad type character, you know, Like, we don't have any of that. I was a flawed PE person. I was vulnerable, I was tough, you know, she Cat was, I mean Cat the character, she's ferocious. She protects the ones she loves. It was, I really, and, and I wanna, I was really proud of it. Like doing, getting to be all of those things on, on a stage and to have a, a storyline centered around me.

4 (1h 21m 28s):
And my, my cultural identity wasn't the central wasn't like my trauma and all of that wasn't the central piece of the story, but it was a part of the story. You know, It was, it, it was informed my entire character. So yeah, man, I'm, I

1 (1h 21m 42s):
Relate to that theater. Theater really scratches that in, it does, you know, when it's, when it's good and when you're really feeling in yourself and you're really vibing with the audience. Like there is, it's like a, I wish I could mainline that

4 (1h 21m 54s):
Feeling and I got to work and I got to work with these actors, these act these other actors like Jeannie Sakata and Nelson Lee and Christopher Larkin and the Playwrights Mar, amazing Kaen Kim who went to Julliard. You know, these are, these are all these amazing actors that we all never get to play these things.

2 (1h 22m 11s):
And I, my Jeanie Jeanie's, I was just gonna say that representation matters, people stop there. But for me it's the kind of sto that stories, representation, stories matter, you know, not just putting bodies on a stage that are a certain look or a certain ethnicity. Yeah. But what is the actual motherfucking story that we're representing on stage or on screen? Yeah. So go ahead. I'm gonna cut you off about the playwright. No, no, it's okay.

4 (1h 22m 41s):
No, it's okay. It's just, you know, Carla tells these Asian American stories and we don't have a lot of Asian American stories. It's like, you need to know Kungfu or you need to speak three languages, or you need to be able to do all of these things. Like what if you're just someone who grew up here and doesn't see themselves ever anywhere and have to like, project yourself onto these other characters you see that are just living their lives in America and grappling with how they fit into that puzzle, that puzzle without it being about, Do you know what I mean? Just, I'm American.

3 (1h 23m 12s):
Absolutely. And, and by the way, what if,

1 (1h 23m 15s):
What if every white actress had to learn a martial art in order to do their, to do a part? Like, I mean, well, we'd have a lot fewer actresses, which my

4 (1h 23m 24s):
Listen, those stories, the stories are all valid. I I I think all of those in immigration stories, all of that is a hundred percent important and part of the story. But it's not the whole story. No. And and we cannot and we cannot be told what stories we're allowed to, to be told. Like, that story isn't Asian enough, Right? Like what? No, it is. I'm

2 (1h 23m 41s):
Telling. Yes, yes, exactly. We are, I think it comes down to like, for me too, like as a Latina, but born in this country doesn't speak. I'm not fluent. Like it's, we are told, all of us are told we're not enough or too much. And what I'm hearing from you is, and what I think is coming next is no, no, no, this is enough. We are enough. And there is enough story within what already exists to be true that we can mine so that we don't have to come up with 700 million more stories about, you know, Latinas that are maids. Like, let's not do that. Yeah. Let's like mine what we've got right in front of us before it disappears. That's right. You dumb fuckers. Anyway. Okay.

4 (1h 24m 23s):
But yeah, like, I was gonna say, Jeanie, Jeanie Sakata, who's the, the more mature one of the, she played my mom in the play. She's, she's like kind of a stage legend. She's like E EastWest players, you know, She, she said to me and to Carla, you know, I think I've waited my entire career for some of the scenes that I get to do in this play. Like, just to have a scene that where she's a full complex person, you know, And like, I mean, it just, I haven't waited as long as her, but I'm grateful for people like her who is a true trailblazer. Do you know what I mean? So I think like, you know, I gotta give, I gotta give my my sister props on that.

3 (1h 25m 12s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PoliSci are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Pucci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Ink, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?

1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez, and I'm Gina Pulice.

2 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of

2 (20s):
It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

0 (34s):
You

2 (35s):
Part of the building.

1 (36s):
Okay,

2 (37s):
Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.

1 (41s):
I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.

2 (45s):
That is true. Good morning.

1 (48s):
Good. Margie,

2 (50s):
Your makeup looks amazing.

1 (53s):
Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?

2 (59s):
Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,

1 (1m 10s):
The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.

2 (1m 15s):
Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.

2 (1m 58s):
So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.

1 (2m 0s):
Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.

1 (2m 40s):
She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash

2 (3m 23s):
Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it

1 (3m 44s):
Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop

2 (4m 6s):
Back. Yeah, dude.

1 (4m 7s):
So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.

1 (4m 48s):
In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social

2 (5m 22s):
Media. What

1 (5m 23s):
She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So

2 (5m 50s):
Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.

2 (6m 40s):
If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.

1 (6m 57s):
Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.

1 (7m 43s):
And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,

2 (8m 0s):
Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,

1 (8m 14s):
The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,

2 (8m 45s):
Oh,

1 (8m 46s):
There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.

1 (9m 32s):
Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.

2 (10m 9s):
Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.

2 (10m 50s):
Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So

1 (11m 8s):
I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.

2 (11m 45s):
Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.

2 (12m 43s):
They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.

1 (12m 46s):
It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,

2 (13m 8s):
Right? Yes.

1 (13m 9s):
And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.

2 (13m 16s):
And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.

2 (14m 10s):
And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.

1 (14m 17s):
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.

2 (14m 48s):
Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.

1 (15m 22s):
Yes. Yeah.

2 (15m 23s):
I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not

1 (15m 58s):
Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make

2 (16m 38s):
Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.

2 (17m 23s):
So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign

1 (17m 48s):
Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.

2 (17m 57s):
Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We

1 (18m 1s):
Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.

2 (18m 9s):
Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.

2 (18m 51s):
That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.

1 (19m 13s):
Hey,

2 (19m 14s):
Let run this by

1 (19m 15s):
You today is about rejection.

2 (19m 25s):
I love it.

1 (19m 26s):
I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?

1 (20m 10s):
And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM

2 (20m 18s):
Yeah.

1 (20m 19s):
Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.

2 (20m 35s):
Oh my god.

1 (20m 37s):
Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.

2 (21m 0s):
I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.

1 (21m 8s):
Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What

2 (21m 32s):
The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?

1 (21m 36s):
They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.

1 (22m 21s):
It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy

2 (22m 45s):
Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.

2 (23m 24s):
So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.

2 (24m 6s):
And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.

2 (24m 50s):
Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.

2 (25m 31s):
And that just feels shitty.

1 (25m 33s):
It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.

1 (26m 16s):
So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,

2 (26m 26s):
And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.

1 (27m 13s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,

0 (27m 47s):
I'm

2 (27m 47s):
Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just

4 (28m 7s):
Yeah, yeah,

2 (28m 8s):
Because Yeah, go ahead.

4 (28m 11s):
No, most recently just two, but yes.

2 (28m 13s):
Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.

2 (28m 55s):
It is not a joke. Thank

4 (28m 56s):
You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut

2 (28m 58s):
Out. Yeah, thank you.

1 (29m 0s):
So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.

4 (29m 34s):
Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're

2 (29m 40s):
Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.

4 (29m 41s):
I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.

2 (29m 54s):
Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was

4 (30m 2s):
It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.

2 (30m 24s):
Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?

4 (30m 53s):
Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.

1 (31m 14s):
So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.

4 (31m 26s):
Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.

4 (32m 9s):
Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but

2 (32m 11s):
Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.

4 (32m 27s):
So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.

2 (32m 51s):
Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I

4 (32m 56s):
Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.

2 (32m 60s):
Like,

4 (33m 1s):
And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh

2 (33m 12s):
My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's

4 (33m 23s):
Harder when you get older.

2 (33m 25s):
No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?

4 (33m 34s):
She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm

2 (34m 3s):
Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,

4 (34m 7s):
Right.

2 (34m 7s):
Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.

4 (34m 10s):
I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?

4 (34m 53s):
Yeah,

1 (34m 54s):
Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?

4 (35m 9s):
Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.

2 (35m 30s):
Oh my, my God.

4 (35m 32s):
It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So

1 (36m 5s):
Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?

4 (36m 33s):
Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh

2 (37m 12s):
Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.

4 (37m 20s):
Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.

1 (37m 28s):
13. I, No, 13. Really young, really

4 (37m 30s):
Young.

1 (37m 31s):
13. Do that on your own.

4 (37m 32s):
So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute

2 (37m 55s):
Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?

4 (38m 7s):
So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,

2 (38m 48s):
My god, all the pressure. And

4 (38m 49s):
Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model

2 (38m 55s):
A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.

4 (39m 10s):
I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But

2 (39m 30s):
I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.

2 (40m 13s):
Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,

4 (40m 16s):
So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.

4 (40m 56s):
Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.

4 (41m 36s):
So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA

1 (41m 56s):
Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.

4 (42m 17s):
So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.

4 (43m 3s):
So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.

2 (43m 14s):
Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.

4 (43m 18s):
Oh boy.

2 (43m 19s):
I bet was great. Whatever it was.

4 (43m 22s):
The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been

1 (44m 2s):
Saying

4 (44m 2s):
I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.

2 (44m 6s):
Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know

4 (44m 10s):
It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.

2 (44m 14s):
Oh yeah, that's

1 (44m 15s):
Exactly what I did. Terrible.

2 (44m 20s):
Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,

4 (44m 46s):
So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,

2 (45m 4s):
Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like

4 (45m 8s):
At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,

1 (45m 39s):
This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.

2 (45m 48s):
No. Was

1 (45m 49s):
It nerve wracking?

4 (45m 51s):
Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.

2 (46m 9s):
So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?

4 (46m 20s):
No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,

2 (46m 39s):
So

1 (46m 40s):
I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?

4 (47m 5s):
You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.

4 (47m 45s):
Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,

2 (47m 55s):
I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.

4 (47m 57s):
Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.

2 (48m 23s):
Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.

4 (48m 57s):
So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.

4 (49m 38s):
I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.

4 (50m 25s):
And wait

2 (50m 26s):
A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.

4 (50m 41s):
17, Yeah.

2 (50m 42s):
You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?

4 (50m 57s):
I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.

4 (51m 36s):
And

2 (51m 37s):
That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so

4 (51m 55s):
I really wanted to go

2 (51m 56s):
To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?

4 (52m 2s):
Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was

2 (52m 31s):
All these like, what a power move.

4 (52m 35s):
I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.

4 (53m 18s):
I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my

2 (53m 31s):
God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.

4 (54m 1s):
I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's

1 (54m 23s):
So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.

4 (55m 3s):
No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.

2 (55m 6s):
Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?

4 (55m 20s):
Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.

4 (56m 11s):
And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is

2 (56m 38s):
Like

4 (56m 39s):
Directing and design, like great fallback. But

2 (56m 43s):
Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.

2 (57m 23s):
And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.

4 (57m 45s):
Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.

4 (58m 29s):
So yeah. So cool.

1 (58m 31s):
Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?

4 (59m 3s):
You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,

2 (59m 27s):
Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.

4 (1h 0m 2s):
Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?

1 (1h 0m 15s):
I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.

4 (1h 0m 55s):
That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.

2 (1h 1m 28s):
Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.

2 (1h 2m 10s):
So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.

4 (1h 2m 46s):
No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.

4 (1h 3m 30s):
And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.

2 (1h 3m 45s):
And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?

2 (1h 4m 25s):
We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.

4 (1h 4m 34s):
I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.

4 (1h 5m 24s):
I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,

2 (1h 5m 51s):
No, it puts more work. It's more work,

4 (1h 5m 54s):
More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean? Absolutely.

1 (1h 6m 2s):
And if you could go back in time, if you could go back in time, you'd say to him, Oh, well you're not shattering I acting exactly like every fucking asshole theater teacher, Right. Who's told women things like that before.

4 (1h 6m 15s):
Yeah. But it's, it's an awkward thing to approach cuz you know, they're not trying to be rude or, or not trying to be demeaning. No.

2 (1h 6m 24s):
It's a systems problem. It's a lack of understanding. It's a systems problem. Yeah. So, so now what I've, I've, and maybe you do this too, and maybe Gina, you do it like, now I say like, oh, like let's ask the question, I wonder why that stereotype exists in the first place and who is that benefiting? And let's like, start there. Like, let's go a little bit under the compliment sandwich and see like, oh, but like, wouldn't it be awesome And no one's gonna say this at the, I don't know, maybe kids now do say like, Hey, wouldn't it be awesome teacher, boss, mother, father? If we could get to the bottom of why that shit started in the first place and who benefits from it. Because then we could instead of like, but for me, someone gives me a compliment and I'm 17, I go, Oh yeah, I'm breaking stereotypes all the time.

2 (1h 7m 11s):
And that's great. And then you realize it's a heavy burden. It's a heavy burden to Yeah. Yeah.

4 (1h 7m 17s):
And it also tells you that they're still looking at that, that that person is still looking you, at you through the white gays, the, the framing your success on the white gays, right? Or, or the male gaze, or you know, whatever it would be, you know, the patriarchy. It's kind of like this idea, it reminds you of the framework that's there that you're limited to working in. And you will only be seen through that lens. And that's a, that's a a different, that's a, that's, that reminds you of the, the trap you're in. Right? So it's, it's interesting. I mean, because if you're, if your only framework is white American theater, that's how you're gonna frame it. You shatter stereotypes instead of you're a part of American theater.

4 (1h 7m 59s):
You, you are the future of American theater. Right. Which is a different, a different way of seeing it. So anyway, there was that, and then the other time you're asking what they did, what happened to another anecdote was when my mother was, I was my mom's caregiver when she was sort of in her final day, she passed and my manager called me, This is not theater school, but at the time, a manager called me and he said, you know, we we're talking about schedule. And then he said, Hey, can I ask you a question? I said, Sure. Thinking he was gonna ask me, How you doing? Your mother just passed away. He knew for years I was caring for her. And I said, and I said, Sure, go ahead. And he says, to get fat since your mom died.

4 (1h 8m 42s):
And I had, I had, I had gained weight, but because I, while I was taking care of my mom, it was like, you know, she was dying. So I had gotten on anti-anxiety pills at the time, right? So I gained weight and I was so shocked he said that. And I said, Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I actually have put on weight. And I said, But I'm not gonna apologize for that because my mom died. And like that's that I, I'm not gonna beat myself up while I'm grieving as well about that. And then shock you, fuck you. I know. And then he backpedals and he goes, Well I'm gonna get in trouble for saying all this. Then he backpedaled and he said, you know, because heroin skinny isn't hot either.

4 (1h 9m 26s):
So he tried to say like, being fat isn't good and being or overweight isn't good and being skinny isn't good. So I said to him, So when am I gonna hit the perfect note for you? Are you gonna, I I'm just not gonna, I said, I'm not gonna guilt myself over this cuz the next you're gonna know you're gonna, someone's gonna tell you that my nose is too big and then I'm gonna get a nose job. And then, and then I said, and then I'm gonna get my cheat jaw done. I'm gonna, all this stuff done that I'm insecure about, like when does it end? I said, when I go in the room, I deliver myself and that's what I'm gonna deliver the best and with the most confidence. And if you start to make me feel bad about everything, other little thing that's wrong with me, I'm just gonna be like every other broken person here. Do you know what I mean? Like,

1 (1h 10m 4s):
God bless.

2 (1h 10m 5s):
Yeah. We don't

1 (1h 10m 5s):
Hear super saying that. Like, not everybody would have all the wherewithal to say that at a young age

4 (1h 10m 11s):
Especially. He just hit, he just hit a button, you know? I was also like, I, I had had a, when my mom died, I was like, New policy. Yeah. No more

2 (1h 10m 19s):
Assets. Yeah. Well the other thing, no more assholes. The other thing is like, I wonder, and I don't know this person, they could be a perfectly lovely person, but I wonder if he would've said that to a white man client. Like, would it even be a thing? Would it even be, you know, like, you know, did someone say to Russell Crow, did his manager say that when he put on weight? No. Probably said, Wow, you, you could play anything. You're so diverse. You could play Russell, you could play, it doesn't matter what, you know what I mean? But if it's a woman

4 (1h 10m 47s):
Frazier whale,

2 (1h 10m 48s):
Right, right.

1 (1h 10m 49s):
Yes. Oh, which we haven't talked about on here yet cuz I haven't seen it, but I'm, I'm dying to see that. So,

2 (1h 10m 54s):
So

1 (1h 10m 54s):
Something tells me that you are, when it came time to end and NYU did showcase or whatever, you weren't like putting all your hopes and dreams in something that the school was gonna offer you or not offer you. So tell us about like when you were launching and how you made your, how you made your moves.

4 (1h 11m 16s):
Okay. Woo girl. So we didn't do, I don't remember doing an industry night at nyu and I think I remember feeling like we were not really set off into the world for success. I mean, the most valuable thing I gained from theater school is all the amazing artists that I met there and all the amazing people that I still work. I have a theater company in Los Angeles called Ammunition Theater Company. I'm one of the founding members. We just did a world premier of Carla Changes, new play revenge porn. It, it's the people that I've met there. Those artists are, that's what I walked away from college with and people that makers that I'll always run into and work with for the rest of my life.

4 (1h 11m 59s):
The school itself, amazing training. Very hard, very, very hard. We were scheduled up to the hill. We had to schedule in pee breaks and stuff. I was, I was in a program that everyone lovingly dubbed the suicide track, which is a terrible thing to call anything in college, but that's what we called it because it was acting, directing and design and, but we didn't get, we didn't get set up. Like we couldn't, we weren't even allowed to really mingle with the film department, which would make sense if there was a marriage between the acting schools and the film departments because NYU had one of the finest film departments, film schools in the country, if not the world.

4 (1h 12m 40s):
So it was one of those things that I felt was odd cuz they wanted to protect like the conservatory program and like, you know, we're real actors, we're not doing film. We're, you know what I mean? There was like a weird, you could only audition for things outside of school after your sophomore year. You could only, you know, there were rules that I, I understand, but to some degree. But in terms of setting up your graduates for a working life, that was not the concern for, it's

2 (1h 13m 12s):
As if they designed conservatories to be so great and insular and amazingly exclusive. And then once you graduate, your life stops and that's it. And there is no, like, you will just be stuck at 1920 forever. And they never like imagined you'd have to actually get a job outside of the a conservatory. It's like, no dude,

4 (1h 13m 36s):
I wish, yeah, I wish there was like a business of acting. I wish there was a how to do your taxes as an actor. I, I wish there was learning about a pass through an S corp. I wish there was like, you know, just the nuts and bolts of how to be an adult as an actor going forward. You know, we had a, we had a theater for non-profit class, which I was like, great, that's, I do that now, but I'm also like, I think I could have figured that out at some point.

2 (1h 14m 3s):
So you grad, you graduated and you were kind of like, how did it go, Tina? Were you like, I'm, did you stay New York? When did you come to la? I mean, I'm mindful of time, but here's what I wanna know how you launched yourself and because I just probably believe it was stunning, right? The way you launched yourself.

4 (1h 14m 23s):
Well, I graduated and then I moved to the Bay Area, which was like a very strange little blip. And so I went there and I'm not, I'm not, I don't regret it, but I was with my partner who I ended up, we ended up getting engaged and, and he was going to Stanford grad school. So that was a rough period. But I did a lot of theater and I feel like I did learn a lot about myself as an artist there and how to be independent on that in that way and, you know, creating high art, you know. But I got a movie. I, I, I ended up getting an agent in San Francisco and got a movie which ended up taking me down to Los Angeles.

4 (1h 15m 4s):
I joined the Union, I was the lead of this film. It went to a bunch of festivals and in LA what I ended, what's it

2 (1h 15m 11s):
Called? What's it called? Just so we can look it up.

4 (1h 15m 13s):
It's silly. It's called Pig Hunt.

2 (1h 15m 15s):
Great. I don't care that it's silly. I'll take it. I'll watch it.

4 (1h 15m 21s):
Yeah. It's just like a, a fun monster movie. So yeah, I did that and then the, just the work wasn't enough in San Francisco to, to keep it afloat. So I thought now's the time to start going to Los Angeles and I started dipping my toe in Los Angeles. And how I did that was back then they had casting director workshops. You guys know those, right? But I was interning, so I would be working and at those things and getting those for free and meeting casting directors and somehow getting appointments. And then I started a fake, a fake management company. Oh my gosh, should I be saying this with like,

2 (1h 16m 1s):
Yes you should. Cause you can always edit it out later if you change your mind. And also a lot of, a lot of badass people have done this. Fyi. Yeah.

4 (1h 16m 10s):
So I started a fake management company called Fisher Management. I made a logo and I was interning at a casting office as well, a couple casting offices. So I saw how the submissions were coming in and I saw we would de pile cpi, you know, piles for agencies and passes. And I remember I would re, I'd be a reader for the casting office. And so they gave me a couple auditions, took a bunch of acting classes. My first agent in LA came from an acting class. A teacher said, You should have an agent and this is who you should meet with. And the fake management company. I started just submitting to things like, you know, submitting through.

4 (1h 16m 50s):
Someone else had the breakdowns. Cause you used to be able to get the breakdowns too. And I would format it correctly, like I learned at the, at the casting office. And then I'd just show up at the, get the appointments. I changed my voicemail. I didn't have my own voice. I, you know, you've reached Fisher Management to reach any of our clients. Please leave a message after the beep or whatever it is. And yep, that's what, that's what I did. And I got my first few jobs that way.

1 (1h 17m 15s):
So we need to write, the three of us need to write a pilot that's like not quite a take on Breaking Bad, but it's fault. It's mirroring this idea of like how you just have to grab it for yourself. And we could be having our fake, you know, management company and swindling people and we get real evil and we turn like, you know, threatening people if we don't get jobs, we

4 (1h 17m 38s):
Smoke a little meth,

1 (1h 17m 39s):
We smoke just for fun. Just on the side,

4 (1h 17m 43s):
On the,

1 (1h 17m 44s):
I was in the Bay area to after college, like, so from, yeah, I lived in Oakland from like 97 to 2002. So I, I'm just curious what theater companies you worked with and what kind of stuff you did there?

4 (1h 17m 59s):
Intersection for the Arts and Camp Santo. So I worked with them for a couple shows, which was really great. And word for word theater company as well. We did a Amy Tan show that ended up going Yeah. You know, word for word. So Sue and Joanne and all of them, they're so wonderful. And we, we did a, we did an Amy Tan show that ended up like kept getting revived for like five years. We went to France with the show. We toured California. We, yeah, so, so those two companies. Yeah.

1 (1h 18m 29s):
So since we only have a few minutes, I wanna ask,

4 (1h 18m 35s):
I hope my story is making sense. I'm sorry, but

1 (1h 18m 37s):
Oh, no, no, no. A lot Perfect sense. Percent. Perfect. Yeah, perfect sense. So do you feel like where you're at now in your career that you're, nobody's ever scratching all of the itches, but that like you're scratching the amount of itches that you wanna scratch and like, what do you wanna do next and where do you see yourself going?

4 (1h 18m 59s):
Such a good question. Well, there's a lot of things going on. I mean, during the pandemic, I also, you know, it was like, how are we gonna work when everything was frozen? And we, I just got rid of so much of my clothing and turned my closet into a, you know, a recording studio and started, got a voiceover agent and started doing voiceovers, which was really, really, has been really fun for me. I also have a production company called One-to-One Productions with my business partner Carla Mosley, who's also a soap actress, but she also went to nyu. She's incredibly talented. But we've been producing films and short films of, of women of color and people we believe in, writers we believe in. And we, we currently have a pilot that we produce by Carolyn Rat Ray, and that is in Urban World Film Festival in New York.

4 (1h 19m 49s):
Next week it was at Seattle Queer Film Festival. It was just at Outfest in la So it's been doing well. Am I scratching the itches? I mean, I'm doing a lot. I would say I just did this play Revenge porn or The Story of a Body by Carla Ching. And I got to be, I feel like it's, I was the lead of, I was the lead of the title, the lead of the show. I mean, it was an ensemble piece, but because everybody was so incredible, it was the first time I felt like seen fully as an artist and, you know, I was like, I, it, it ended like a week ago. It closed and I, my heart

2 (1h 20m 29s):
Broken. Yes. But, but you did, I mean, I just love hearing that you were seen fully as an, as an artist. Yeah. That is like fucking amazing.

4 (1h 20m 42s):
Yeah, I'll tell you what it was, you know, we spend so much of our time feeling dissatisfied in the work that we're in, Right. And what we're doing every day. And it was just so good to feel like, like it's gonna make me cry thinking about like, I, I just got to do it. You know what I mean? Like, I got to be like the fe a female breaking bad type character, you know, Like, we don't have any of that. I was a flawed PE person. I was vulnerable, I was tough, you know, she Cat was, I mean Cat the character, she's ferocious. She protects the ones she loves. It was, I really, and, and I wanna, I was really proud of it. Like doing, getting to be all of those things on, on a stage and to have a, a storyline centered around me.

4 (1h 21m 28s):
And my, my cultural identity wasn't the central wasn't like my trauma and all of that wasn't the central piece of the story, but it was a part of the story. You know, It was, it, it was informed my entire character. So yeah, man, I'm, I

1 (1h 21m 42s):
Relate to that theater. Theater really scratches that in, it does, you know, when it's, when it's good and when you're really feeling in yourself and you're really vibing with the audience. Like there is, it's like a, I wish I could mainline that

4 (1h 21m 54s):
Feeling and I got to work and I got to work with these actors, these act these other actors like Jeannie Sakata and Nelson Lee and Christopher Larkin and the Playwrights Mar, amazing Kaen Kim who went to Julliard. You know, these are, these are all these amazing actors that we all never get to play these things.

2 (1h 22m 11s):
And I, my Jeanie Jeanie's, I was just gonna say that representation matters, people stop there. But for me it's the kind of sto that stories, representation, stories matter, you know, not just putting bodies on a stage that are a certain look or a certain ethnicity. Yeah. But what is the actual motherfucking story that we're representing on stage or on screen? Yeah. So go ahead. I'm gonna cut you off about the playwright. No, no, it's okay.

4 (1h 22m 41s):
No, it's okay. It's just, you know, Carla tells these Asian American stories and we don't have a lot of Asian American stories. It's like, you need to know Kungfu or you need to speak three languages, or you need to be able to do all of these things. Like what if you're just someone who grew up here and doesn't see themselves ever anywhere and have to like, project yourself onto these other characters you see that are just living their lives in America and grappling with how they fit into that puzzle, that puzzle without it being about, Do you know what I mean? Just, I'm American.

3 (1h 23m 12s):
Absolutely. And, and by the way, what if,

1 (1h 23m 15s):
What if every white actress had to learn a martial art in order to do their, to do a part? Like, I mean, well, we'd have a lot fewer actresses, which my

4 (1h 23m 24s):
Listen, those stories, the stories are all valid. I I I think all of those in immigration stories, all of that is a hundred percent important and part of the story. But it's not the whole story. No. And and we cannot and we cannot be told what stories we're allowed to, to be told. Like, that story isn't Asian enough, Right? Like what? No, it is. I'm

2 (1h 23m 41s):
Telling. Yes, yes, exactly. We are, I think it comes down to like, for me too, like as a Latina, but born in this country doesn't speak. I'm not fluent. Like it's, we are told, all of us are told we're not enough or too much. And what I'm hearing from you is, and what I think is coming next is no, no, no, this is enough. We are enough. And there is enough story within what already exists to be true that we can mine so that we don't have to come up with 700 million more stories about, you know, Latinas that are maids. Like, let's not do that. Yeah. Let's like mine what we've got right in front of us before it disappears. That's right. You dumb fuckers. Anyway. Okay.

4 (1h 24m 23s):
But yeah, like, I was gonna say, Jeanie, Jeanie Sakata, who's the, the more mature one of the, she played my mom in the play. She's, she's like kind of a stage legend. She's like E EastWest players, you know, She, she said to me and to Carla, you know, I think I've waited my entire career for some of the scenes that I get to do in this play. Like, just to have a scene that where she's a full complex person, you know, And like, I mean, it just, I haven't waited as long as her, but I'm grateful for people like her who is a true trailblazer. Do you know what I mean? So I think like, you know, I gotta give, I gotta give my my sister props on that.

3 (1h 25m 12s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PoliSci are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Pucci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Ink, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.