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🎧 Real deals, real strategies, real results. Learn how to find, fund, and operate profitable property plays from someone who’s actually done it.
Hosted by Andrew Wright, principal of Professionals Southport and a commercial investor who rebuilt after losing a ~$15M portfolio during the GFC, this podcast gives you a straight-talking look at what it really takes to build wealth through property.
Each episode delivers practical frameworks, real deal breakdowns, and honest conversations with high-performing investors and operators across residential and commercial.
But it’s bigger than the episodes. The goal is to build a community of like-minded investors who share stories, swap insights, help each other grow and maybe even do deals together.
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 And you walk in that space and think, "Mamma mia," like that is, this is huge
Are you talking four townhouses for $5 million each? Is that what we're talking here with the numbers?
Yes.
How do you avoid overcapitalizing with luxury property? And what, what makes a successful luxury home?
On the last few projects, I've been very, very involved with the architect, being able to, uh, create something that's beautiful and, and functional at the same time.
In fact, my tagline is creating beautiful, functional, uh, living spaces where our clients' lives flourish. People are overpaying for the land. By the time you factor in build costs and a little bit of es- escalation, there is zero profit. We create our homes, and then our homes create us
Hi, I'm Andrew Wright, principal of Professional Southport, and this is the Andrew Wright Property Podcast. I've built a multi-million dollar property portfolio, delivering a seven-figure annual rental income, and led my real estate team through thousands of sale and lease transactions. In each episode, I share real deals and strategies that will help you find, fund, and operate profitable property deals.
The aim of this show is to provide education and build a community of like-minded investors who can collaborate, share insights, and help each other in each other's journeys. You can make excuses or you can make money, but you can't do both. So come and join us
Hello, listeners, and welcome back to the Andrew Wright Property Podcast. I'm thrilled to present part two with Dave Kelly today, talking about a number of developments that he's done in different areas of property. Property's just so great. There's so many ways you can make money. Dave's done townhouses, he's done luxury houses, uh, he's done developments overseas.
Um- Dave, uh, tell- let's go through these, um, different projects you've done. So the first one we're gonna talk about is a property in, in Broadbeach- Mm-hmm ... at 1 Lakeside Avenue.
Mm.
Tell us about the deal.
So I remember buying that block of land, had a terrible old house on it. Um, and, and pretty good coverage across the site, and a massive swimming pool, and then you step down to a, a dilapidated, dilapidated, uh, jetty at the back on what's called the Lakeside Avenue.
So, and there was literally a lake when they, when they cut all the canals in the Gold Coast, they're all very geometric. Mm. And this particular spot, they widened it out and make, actually made a lake of it. So Lakeside Avenue, and the thing I, that attracted me there was it was, it was $220,000 I bought that site for, and I figured that what I could do was rather than do a ne- whole new building application, we could use the slab that was there.
And what I did was w- with my screw piling, I ran around the outside of the slab, and I underpinned it. So I, I effectively changed an old slab into a slab that wasn't going to settle any further, and then I put a double storey house on it. And that was a good solution, and, um, we, that was our family home there for about, uh, seven or eight years.
But a terrific project, you know. Sold that for nearly a million dollars after buying it for 200. And the build, the build in those days, can you believe it? I think from memory, the build cost me, to build a 350 square meter or 320 square meter house, cost me about $240,000. Mm. It was crazy. And I, I, uh, you know, it was one of my building projects, so I, I built it myself.
Um, did a lot of the labor myself- Mm ... the carpentry work, et cetera.
So you got the, uh, capital gains tax exemption from the principal place of residence, paid no tax?
It, paid no tax. How wonderful is that?
And you went and did it, that again.
And then I, I took that, and then I moved down to the beach and, uh, did a beach house.
So let's talk about that second one. So the address 31 Patrol Avenue, Mermaid Beach. Yeah. Is that the address?
Correct, yep.
What was the, um, uh, the details around that acquisition, and why did you, why did you choose that address?
Yeah, well, I... You know, a friend of mine said... And I would go down to the beach.
So from Broadbeach Waters, it's about two kilometers to Broadbeach itself, and the, the be- But what you found there was, it was a busy road, so it wasn't even, didn't even feel confident to ride down there with my kids following you, 'cause there's cars racing by and that sort of thing. A friend of mine who lived on the beach side of the highway said, "Dave, the thing that's different down here is you can only walk past your neighbor so many times and not say hello to them."
So being that close to the beach, the beach is the focus. Everyone's heading there, they're walking, taking the dog, going for a swim, whatever it is, and it really builds community. And in those beachside areas, like, there really is good communities. Not to say that there isn't in other spots, but- And so I wanted to move down to the beach and, and have that beach lifestyle.
So I built, uh, bought a old beach shack. I bought that. And I, I bought that, I settled that almost on the day that I sold my piling business. So I had the opportunity to fully focus on getting a really cool design together and, um, and then went ahead. We lived in that house through Christ- it was an old asbestos shed, house.
It was blazingly hot in summer, and then we got into winter, and it was like camping. It was freezing cold. So, um, it was nice to be able to demolish that and build a, um, a nice luxury house there.
Yeah. Right. So let's just talk about the philosophy building luxury. I noticed, like, with the building costs, particularly the last couple of years, most of the people that I've, uh, talked to on the Gold Coast in particular, it seems to only be that luxury sort of end that's actually profitable-
Mm-hmm
given the, um, higher building costs. How do you avoid overcapitalizing with luxury property, and w- w- what makes a successful luxury home? I mean, you can't... A lot of these areas, uh, they don't necessarily have, like, a building covenant because it's- Mm ... not part of a, um, a body corporate or anything. Mm-hmm. But people build to a certain standard- Mm
uh, obviously. Can you talk us through the luxury home market on the Gold Coast?
Yeah, sure. I think it's easy to get out, uh, if it's y- your own home-
Mm ...
and you're building it, and you can tend to be a lot less diligent with the budget-
Yeah ...
for example, so things can blow out without really realizing it, and you might get a shock at the end.
If you were doing it for a client, as a developer or a builder, then you're probably a lot more focused on that because at the end of the day, you're gonna dispose of it, you're gonna sell it, and you're gonna be watching the numbers, and you want to make sure that your budget versus your actual is pretty close together.
Um, and you can kind of lose that just because you might think, "Oh, gee, I didn't think about this before, but I'll upgrade those taps," or, "I'll put in bidets," or, "I'll," um, you know, whatever it is, upgrade the, the, the flooring from something to a, a really nice floor. Mm-hmm. And they all have impacts on the budget.
So I think the distinction would be i- it's a project and you can specify it out and you, you're gonna sell that thing, then it's easier to keep an eye on that. Whereas once you emotionalize it by making it your own place, then you can lose a, a bit of touch with the budget itself.
Yeah, right. Interesting question here that actually AI came up with that I would never have thought about here, but how does, um, how...
What is the importance that you place on architecture? And the reason I think it's a good question is because, like, you're an, uh, an engineer. Mm. You're a carpenter.
Mm.
You've, uh, done all of this education about building.
Mm.
Do you rely on an architect with your skill set?
Well, I do, um, because there's compliance and there's, um, there's council, uh, there's building code, uh, conformity you have to apply to.
But I am absolutely about architecture and about, um, intention and about the use of the space, and so I've found that on the last few projects, I've been very, very involved with the architect, and we've been able to nut something out. I- I'll say, "This is what I want," and then it's an iterative process, so the first set of plans might come out, and then I'll...
And I'm good, I'm pretty good at visualizing things in three dimensions, so, a- and also spaces, actually un- understanding what a space feels like, how big your gap should be between, for example, an island bench and the main bench at the back, et cetera, so it's functional and really works together well. Um, and I've, I, I enjoy that process, but, but architecture is absolutely important.
I love being able to, uh, create something that's beautiful and, and functional at the same time. In fact, the Semper Ei Property Group, my, its, my tagline is, "Creating beautiful, functional, uh, living spaces where our clients' lives flourish." Yeah, right. So that's, that's what I'm on about. And I would say that I'm, I'm passionate about architecture and, uh, design, absolutely.
Moving along, you've... The next development we're talking about is a change of strategy to land subdivision.
Mm-hmm.
So we've got a five-lot, and then you did, also did a nine-lot-
Mm ...
rural residential subdivision on the Sunshine Coast.
Mm-hmm.
What led you to that sort of opportunity and geographically- Mm ... away from the Gold Coast?
How did that all happen?
Well, the reason I chose Yeamandi on the Go- on the Sunny Coast was that Yeamandi had, uh, a lot of, uh, positive growth, uh, forecast. And also there was other indicators which, um, were suggesting that it'd be a g- good place to, uh, build for future. As it turns out, I w- I would classify both those lots that I had as B grade acreage subdivisions, and the thing I didn't realise is that when markets turn, the B grade stuff can stay on the m- you know, it can really stick around for a long, long time.
So the five-lot subdivision-
What y- what year is this?
Oh, gee, that's going back to, uh- We're talking
199- uh-
Early '90s ...
early '90s, but the market was terrible- Mm ... 'cause I owned my first house then.
Mm.
It was a bad market.
So w- so, so I, I took off, I drove up there, uh, in that area. Was sort of having a look around, you know, built relationships with a couple of agents.
And I was walking... So, so I remember it, like, vividly. It was a winter's day on a Wednesday, and I thought, "Right, time to leave. The traffic's probably died down. I'll drive back to the Gold Coast." I've been talking to Richard, and, uh, I'm walking out his office. He says, "Oh, uh, David, David, I just thought of one thing that maybe would interest you."
Says, "A bit of a strange one. I've got this friend, this guy, and he's, he c- he had a f- approval for five-lot subdivision on his 120 acres up the road here." And he said, but he, he didn't know how to really execute on it, so it's lapsed. And he said there might be something there. And straightaway my ears pricked up, and I thought, "Aha, here's something that's off-market, that's had a fair bit of work put to it."
And I entered into a contract with the owner and I said, "This is the deal. If I can liven the... If I can get council to recognise that the approval that's expired, if they will re-" Reinstate it ... reinstate it.
Yep. "
If they'll do that, I'll buy it off you. I'll buy it off you for this price, but I don't wanna pay you until I do the subdivision, and then I'll pay you back each lot I sell.
I'll sell you, I will pay you back one-fifth of the, the purchase price." And from memory, 120 acres, I think it cost, from memory, 60- 600,000. So, uh, crazy numbers Not,
not these days.
So that was, that was how long ago it was. So, uh, w- number one, got the, got council to recognize and to, um, you know-
Reinstate it
reinstate the, uh, approval.
Yep.
That was the first thing. I then put a budget together for the development, and the cost of the c- civil works was, like, $120,000, which sounds crazy. Yeah. But that was to do roads and drainage, like, a couple of kilometers of roads.
Wow. A
gravel road. Um, put a br- little bridge crossing in, culvert crossing, and then hook up, uh, electricity to the five lots.
And there was a house on that particular lot. Um, so we, we subdivided it, well, it was, the plan was to subdivide that off, which we did, and I sold that house very quickly, and then we had five other lots. And the balance lot was, like, the bit left over, which was 90 acres or something like that, and that was the bit I held, thinking that...
And it had awesome views, um, but thinking that would sell like hotcakes and for good money, and it, it stuck around for years. So, um, anyway, that was what it was. Did
those holding costs kill your profit, or you still had a prof- profit?
Not really. I, I, it was all, I think it was pretty close to all profit by that stage.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, it was a profit, really profitable, and it, it, I didn't have to apply to, to buy the land because the purchase price was offset. Mm. Um, because I was, it was a, it was v- basically a vendor finance project for 0% interest.
Yeah, right.
I got, I, I saw it as me- Applying a skill set to bring that thing back to life
Mm.
The owner was sitting there, and he'd spent all this money on a approval, which he- Mm ... couldn't access and didn't know. Mm. I was helping him out. He just had to be a bit patient to get paid fully. And- Yeah ... um, I was able to- So
you got him the price he wanted.
Yep.
But he, in return, he gave you the terms that you needed- Correct
to actually create the value so he could get his price.
Price and terms, yeah.
Win-win.
Exactly, yeah. And around about the same time, the other project was... I thought, "Oh, this is great. Um, I'm gonna buy another block in Eumundi." And I, I bought another house which had... And I got an approval on that to, to cut about, um, three lots off that.
It was a 10-acre block. And then I, uh, after listening to, you know, these different educators, I thought, "Ah, um, I'll do an option contract and... Or, or I'll try and do an option contract." So I approached the neighbor behind. That block was a bit obscure because it was, getting up to it was difficult, and we had an option in place to, uh, uh, had a option contract on that to buy 10 acres of his land and then add that to mine.
So we would enter off the main road, and he w- we would then have access to those lots. Now, I got an approval for that, and I... What happened was I got the approval, and I guess, to be honest with you, and open about it, I really didn't have the, I didn't have the kind of fighting spirit, 'cause I did- just didn't have the experience.
So when I got the approval, the, the Noosa Shire Council put all this rubbish in there about me having to Build a footpath along the thr- you know, about 200 meters of, of this rural section of road, upgrade the road, put a right turning lane, a left turning lane in it, all this stuff. Now, I drive past that site now.
I sold the site later on. I, and, and it hasn't been developed, but I drive past that and there's no, no one's put a, anywhere along the 20 kilometers of that road, either side, no one's put in a footpath. And if I knew what I know now, I would've gone back to council, challenged them on their, on those other very costly aspects of- Mm-hmm
widening the road and also putting the footpath in, 'cause, yeah, it wasn't just a footpath, it was, had, had to build
up, et cetera. Kerbing, guttering, all,
all of- All this stuff.
Yep.
And that would've made it viable, and I probably would've gone ahead with it, but I just didn't know how to deal with it. I didn't really have the resources at the time to lean on and to, to relate to, and people to ask, et cetera.
And so I just sold it, and I sold it, you know, pretty much for the same money. I just had a lot of practice in putting two development applications together.
Yeah, right. But so someone else has actually subdivided that site now? No,
they never subdivided. They bought it- So- ... and just kept it.
Yeah. Right. So it just hasn't worked.
Yeah, that, that approval would've lapsed.
Mm.
But sometimes these regional councils, goes back to one of my initial comments.
Mm-hmm.
You know, the councils say they wanna promote, like the Gold Coast City Council, you see the, um, chairman of the, uh, planning committee up there on podcasts and, and this and that and the other saying, "Yeah, we wanna, um, bring, uh, affordable housing to the Gold Coast."
And then they hit my friend with a million dollars- Infrastructure charges ... of infra- infrastructure. Yeah. Which almost makes the project not even po- not even worth doing. If you knew that at the start, you probably wouldn't even buy a block. So, uh, they've, they've gotta get real, and, uh, getting real does not include, um, making things financially unreasonable because otherwise who's gonna take it on?
Yeah, exactly right. Dave, moving on to townhouses. You then at some stage had an 11-townhouse project called Lux Annerley.
Yep.
I used to live close by to there in suburb called Enoggera.
Oh, yeah.
Um, tell us about the 11-townhouse deal.
Yeah, so that was a good deal. I, my focus switched. I wanted to do a project in Brisbane.
Um, I started going up to, uh, a property, a we- a monthly property, um, event, and that was a way of meeting, getting, getting into the Brisbane market, understanding areas, et cetera, um, consultants particularly. And anyway, I picked up a block in Annerley. It was about a 750 square meter block, and I thought, "Right, what I'm gonna do here, I'm gonna run the driveway down the left-hand side of the block, and I'll put five double...
triple story townhouses as we go along." And that was, that was good. It worked out well. Put the application in. Um, was kinda getting close to that application being approved. It was a code assessable application. And I thought, "Oh, gee, this Annerley and these inner city parts of Brisbane, like they've really got..."
I had a lot of Melbourne in me, I think, and so the idea of living inner city or close to the city was really vibe. You don't get that so much on the Gold Coast. But I thought, "I'm gonna try and find another block." So I, I did a, I scraped the, I used my PriceFinder account in those days where all the names and addresses were available and, and phone numbers, and I created a database and I, I e- did a, did a letterbox drop.
And I got an incredible response. And I got about 8% of people that I letterbox dropped come back to me- Wow ... offering me land. And one of them was n- the next-door neighbor. And I'd bought the first block for 600 grand, 750,000, so 750 meters squared in Annerley for 600 grand. And the, the guy next door had a newer house on there, but same size block, and he wanted 700 grand.
So I, I thought, "Well, what can I do if I..." 'Cause I got five on one block, but because I had the- Had the road ... driveway on the left- Yeah ... I kept the driveway there, and that meant that on the left-hand side block, the new block I was buying, used the same driveway, six meters wide, but then we put six townhouses in, triple story with a, a tandem car park in them.
Wow. A garage in them. So I got not, not double, but I got six- One extra townhouse ... one extra. Yeah, right. And that just added to the fee zone and really worked well. So I developed that, had that built, um, sold that. But my intention always there was to keep two of them. Mm. And I ran them, the front and the back of the new block on the left-hand side, I ran them as a rooming house.
Okay.
And that was a good experience. They really, you know, the, the return from that was off the charts, and I sold them about six months lat- six years later, uh, to, uh, get out of Brisbane, come put my money in the Gold Coast, and I sold them for, you know, 50% uplift in that period. So it was a successful on every measure, that project.
It was great.
Fantastic. And, uh- Moving back to the Gold Coast, um, no, the next one we got here is overseas, California.
Yeah.
Manhattan Beach. Manhattan Beach. We're taking a turn on the podcast talking to you about property development in America, so there's probably a fair bit we can cover here.
Yeah.
Why did you end up going to America?
Uh, I had a new phase of life opening up. Um, and, uh, and what I mean by that is that, uh, my wife at the time and I, who, who had raised our beautiful kids and we'd had a, a really great functional marriage and, but we realized that we'd grown apart. And so we decided to separate and divorce, and that was amicable and we're friends now, which I'm really pleased about, and, you know, we, uh, still have a very close-knit family.
So that was... The important things were being covered. And I moved to America, um, and, uh, I wanted, I needed a change of pace and, and just to see some new things. Moved to America, um, worked as one of those jobs I'd mentioned on the other edition of your podcast.
To get your visa.
To get my visa. Yeah, right.
Had to, had to get a job to get a visa.
Yep.
And, um, and then I inter- I, I then... I'd been thinking about this, thinking, okay, 'cause an E2, a E3 visa was a, a visa set up by George Bush after the first Gulf War. Um, George Bush probably didn't even know where Australia was, but he, he said, "These Aussies, you know, these Aussies are, they help us out all the time.
You know, they come in, they were the first ones to support us in, uh, when we went into Afghanistan." He said, "These Aussies, how can we help them?" And the gov- the, you know, the Australian, um, ambassador at the time said, "Well, they have a really hard job getting into America and working." They said, "Right, that's it.
We'll, we'll set up a new visa class just for the Aussies." And so they created this E3 visa. So E is expert. So in other words, anyone with a degree can apply for an E3 visa in America, and it goes through pretty cleanly. Uh, no, very quickly. And, uh, and so I thought, I'm gonna jump on this E3 visa. So to that I, I got, worked with a crazy man for a start.
You know, didn't like that job. And then I thought, hang on. So he's invite- he's got his company, American company, he's invited me to work for him, got a job specification. I then, as Dave Kelly, came and applied for the job, and I get my E3 visa, and so I can stay in America. And I thought, "I wonder if I could set up my own company and employ myself."
Sounds like a, a, sounds dodgy, but in fact, I went and I spoke to eight lawyers, American lawyers, and they said, "No, you can't do that. You can't do that. That's crazy." And then, uh, "Oh yeah, you can do that." And I said, "Really?" And I thought, fantastic. Like, I thought, you must be able to do it.
Yeah.
And anyway, so I set up my own company and I employed myself under an E3 visa.
Wow.
Now, I'm sure... Now that was, that was now going back- You know, that was 2019, so it's several years ago, and now we've got Trumpism and all the rest of it. So I'm sure it's a lot more difficult to do. However, it was a legitimate way and, and I thought, "Oh, this is great." So anyway, so then I was self-employed in America and this, um...
And, and networking in America, you know, I love, I love, uh, I love California for its opportunism and its entrepreneurship and, and the Americans are, you know, they go, go, go. And it's commercial, but as long as you understand that it's commercial and maybe transactional relationships, then go for it. And anyway, I thought, "Right, I'm here.
Left crazy man job. Here on my, on new job with my own company, employing myself. I got to get a job." So a project, you know, cashflow, and went to a networking event over there. Met an agent. "Hey, Dave, come and have coffee with..." "Okay." So went and had coffee. Straight away he says, "Oh, you want to do a project? Oh, you got all the s- skills and experience.
Oh, fantastic. How about we, um... I'll, I'll give, give a call." Rings Nate, Nate rings me, and then boom, one meeting he says, "Yeah, come and d- come and build this house for us." So I was working for a small development company, building a house as the builder- Yeah ... in Manhattan Beach. And so I'll tell you two interesting stories that came out of that.
The first one was that, um, I knew feet and inches because feet and inches, this is how old I am, right? Feet and inches got, uh, replaced with the metric system w- on the year I was born or round about then. I'm not gonna tell you what year it was. You can do your own homework. But, um, so I grew up understanding feet and inches, but realizing that we're in the meters and centimeters, sort of, millimeter economy from this point on.
So I understand that, you know, I'm six foot tall. "Oh, what's six foot tall?" Oh, the people freak out. "Well, it's 183 centimeters." "Oh, what's that?" "Oh, it's 1.83 meters." "Oh, okay. Oh, now I understand." So I can work in both those sort of, um, you know, universes. Anyway, I didn't think too much about it, but this was a big luxury house.
It was a $5 million build in Manhattan Beach, sitting on 42nd Street, 445 42nd Street, narrow street, great views back to the beach. The house was gonna be worth like $7 million or something at the end of it. So anyway, I'm, I turn up, uh, w- supervise all the, the, um, demolition, get all that done. Then I get the foundations in, which was an incredible, you know, something very different they do to deal with all these, uh, earthquake loads in, uh, Los Angeles.
And then we get there to set the frame out and I thought, "I better get the plans, right." So I get the plans. I roll these plans out- And I'm looking, thinking, 128 feet, 3 inches and 2/3 of an inch. And I'm thinking, "Well, that's a lot." Like, how can you do... Like, so the shock was going from understanding feet and inches to actually setting out a building plan- Yep
using this crazy system- Yeah ... the Imperial System, where feet and inches, at big dimensions, you know, it's a lot, a lot to it.
They still talk like that now, even today. Yeah. Like, I, I watch a lot of, uh, commercial property podcasts, and they always talk about how many, uh, how many, uh... What's the, um-
Acres? Feet.
No, not acres. No. How many feet. Instead of a, a, a 1,000- Yeah ... square meter building- Mm-hmm ... they say a 10,000 square feet building. Yeah, that's right. They're still talking feet- Yeah ... even right now in, in- That's right ... America, which is, it's, it's confusing, isn't it?
Yeah. Well, in Victoria, it's interesting. In Victoria, they use squares.
Like, they'll talk about a house that's 20 squares. A square. Yeah, yeah. 20 squares. One square is 100 square feet, so it's 10 feet by 10 feet, 100 square feet.
Yep.
28- 20 of them is, you know, a, a 20 square house.
Yeah.
So it's used in Victoria. It's not really used up here at all.
Yeah.
Which is, I'm not sure why that is, but, um...
So that was my first story, just about the shock of these big numbers- Yeah ... and how you would possibly work that out. I m- and the metric system just makes so much sense. So the next story is that, um, this was a three-story house, and that particular council of, or city they call it, of Manhattan Beach, was absolutely dead on.
I was warned. They said, "Do not go 1/8 of an inch over height, because the council w- will have to do a survey, and if you're 1 inch o- over, the council will make you come and pull the roof off." And I thought, "Oh, bloody hell." Like, have to really be careful here. We got... So working with the framer, and let him go to a certain extent.
He built the first two levels, and then I said, "On that floor, you need to put the level, bring the surveyor in, put a level on the floor, so when we measure to the ridge and the, the coping, that we're not over height." Okay. So we do that. Arrange for the surveyor to come. You know, he comes. I go up there the next day, and I remember walking up to the site.
So I'm expecting, you know, my, my story about 128 feet, 2 3/4 inches. And I get up there, and here's on the floor the surveyor's written the height above sea level, 128.3 feet. And I'm thinking, "Geez, I, I don't know what that means." I think I know what it means, but it's a hybrid between the decimal system, 'cause you got a .3 of a feet, and it, uh, with the, um, you know, with the feet and inches.
And I was thinking, "How does that work?" And so I thought, "I better not disclose here that I don't know, 'cause I'm probably the only one." And I sort of said to the, the framer, carpenter, I said, I said, "You put the level there." He said, "Yeah, yeah, he came yesterday, put the level there." I said, "You know, what, what does that mean to you?"
And he said, "Mate, I don't know what he means by that." And I thought, "Well, at least I'm not the only one who doesn't understand what that means." So then I ring the surveyor and I said, "Listen, I'm from Australia. You know, we're in the metric system." He said, "Oh, metric system. Metric system is way better. This feet and inches, it's crap, mate.
It's so hard to work with." And I said, "You've got 128.3 feet." He says, "Well, we convert it to that because it makes sense to us. We can work with that. And then at the end, when it's all said and done, we'll convert it to feet and inches then, because that's just a nightmare to work with." So it's a funny system, and I mean, America probably will...
I don't know whether they will, any of those states will convert. It'd be an enormous job to do to convert that country.
What, what year was this when you did that project in-
Oh, that would've been, uh 2019, 2020
Okay. My understanding is in America they have a lot less red tape for anything. Yeah. Setting up businesses-
Mm
getting development approvals. Did you go- find that-
Oh ...
through the-
Incredibly ...
approval process there?
Just, oh, z- you know, raising money, what I used to find, I'd go to these po- property groups, 'cause I wanted to understand the landscape, much like my approach when I went to Brisbane.
Yeah.
Used to travel to Brisbane, meet the consultants, see what was going on-
Mm
et cetera. And I'd go to all these events all round Los Angeles, and I'd meet this, you know, young, you know, looks like he's in his 20s, beautifully dressed up. He got his flashy suit on, his big watch and everything, and, um, I'm talking to him and, uh, he says, "Oh, yes, we've got this. We've got, you know, down Midtown here, we've got, uh, 38 houses going in.
Over here we're doing a seven-story building, and back here we're doing 40 townhouses." And I'm thinking, "My God," like he's either got money- Mm ... his dad's a developer and he's just, you know, taken on the business. And I find out that this guy's, this is his first year, but he's been able to raise the money and then somehow hacked together some feasibility that probably makes sense to him, if no one else, and he's, he, because he's got the capital, he's gone off and he's venturing into all these projects.
So people can grow there very quickly in the development field because what's normally the ceiling and the difficult thing for us in this country is raising money. If you don't have it yourself, you've got to raise it from individuals. Uh, far, far easier doing it in America, and that's one of the entrepreneurial aspects that I really love about Americans.
Like, they just, they're all, they go, go, go, and it's great.
I've identified one thing from the podcast there, too, Dave. Uh, most people here wouldn't know, but in America, the vendor financing- Mm ... of properties, um, can be, it's a lot easier to get vendor finance. Mm-hmm. Because over there in Australia, if you trigger a capital gain through a sale contract-
Mm
all of that capital gain gets taxed-
Mm-hmm ...
in that financial year on the, the-
Mm ...
on the date of that contract. Mm-hmm. In America, you can go to someone and say, "Hey, listen, why don't you provide me vendor finance? I'll pay you off over five years." Mm-hmm. And in the tax system over there, they get to spread that capital gain- Mm
the seller, over five years. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So vendor finance is a lot more common over there because the tax system supports it. So-
Yeah ...
it just, um, creates- I mean, here- ... uh, creative, uh, deals getting done.
I mean, here we're just, you know, it's, it's, unfortunately it's just the Australian way it seems- Mm ... with the bureaucrats we have.
You know, there's this new legislation here that as a developer, if you're selling property, you've got to vet your potential purchaser for- Anti-money laundering ...
anti-money laundering. It's like- I've just gone through the last couple of weeks. It's torture.
Yeah. It sounds, yeah, it sounds, like, horrible. Well, I mean, it's just another, it's like us collecting GST for the government.
Yeah.
Now we're collecting the stats on our potential buyers to ensure that they're not, you know, Russian terrorists or something.
Yeah. It's, the government's making it very, very difficult.
Mm.
Tell us about your project you're doing right now just up the road here in Burleigh
Yeah, so I've got... I'm really fortunate and I do really take it as a, like in a competitive market when people are trying to buy development sites, uh, which I was doing.
I came back to Australia in 2020. Um, came back, decided to stay, and I thought, "Well, if I'm staying, I'm back in, I've got to d- develop things and c- be, be creative." And so I found that in the, uh, market of three or four townhouse sites, size sites, um, people are paying Big
dollars ...
you're paying big dollars Mm
and you do your feasibility, and I was good at my feasibility. Before I left to move to America in 2018, I, I'd taught my feasibility course, so I understand it, I could teach it, and I'm applying my feasibility to these Australian sites on the Gold Coast here and even Brisbane, and I'm thinking, "There's no profit in this."
People are overpaying for the land. By the time you factor in build costs and a little bit of es- escalation, there is zero profit. So that's either someone gonna get a, a roof-
And that's assuming the market doesn't go down ...
yeah, that's right. Now, as it turns out, in the last few years the market's gone up.
So some of those developers, and I've even seen presentations like this at some of these property groups, they stand up and they say, "I made, I made all this money in the development." '
Cause the market went up.
And I'm saying, "Hang on, mate. If you break down your feaso, the only place you've made money is in the growth in the land.
You could have done nothing-
Exactly ...
stuck your feet up, and made the same profit- Mm-hmm ... and probably with way less stress."
Mm-hmm.
And so, but a lot of that's... It's not that obvious unless you actually know how to create and then to read into the numbers in a feaso. So I thought, "Well, there's so much noise in that entry level of the market-
Mm
I've gotta pop up and try and buy something bigger." And then I thought that, "If I can raise money, then I can get into that next level." So I bought this site, cost $3 million, or $3.9 million, in Burleigh. But the beautiful thing was, uh, when I first got back to, uh, Australia, I visited a friend of mine who lives up the back of my site, t- two streets up.
On a, on a Saturday morning in winter where it's, you know, cold mornings, but we have these incredible days, winter days, uh, typically, on the Gold Coast where the s- the sky is blue and the water just looks so amazing when you're in an elevated position. Walked out of William's house, looked out, and I thought, "My God, look at that.
That is just... That is me." I'm looking at this vision of Burleigh Heads, looking down to Surfers, with all this ocean, and I thought, "That's me. And if I could possibly have that vision and develop something around that, then I would go for it." And I thought, "Well-"
And you'd be very proud of it ...
I'd be proud of it.
So anyway, I... But that was a clear idea I had. Then the block in the street I'm living in, I moved to Burleigh, um, I was renting an apartment there, and a block comes for sale in the street, uh, for auction. And w- and not surprisingly, there was a lot less competition at that price point. There was myself and another person, and, uh, thanks to, you know, the really cooperative nature of the Kollosche team, um, I was able to put a fair bid in, and I was successful in getting that site.
And I went to work to, uh, develop a unit complex which would be the thing that's, um, you know, traditionally done in th- these areas. How many
square meters of land are we talking?
613.
613, okay.
So my plan was to build a basement- Um, the site's got a lot of s- uh, left to right slope across it from east to west, two and a half meters across a 18-meter wide site, so it's a lot.
Um, and it, it creates, uh, complexities in terms of doing units because invariably you're gonna have one unit that's pretty much at ground level at one side of the site, but because it's two and a half meters forward it means you've got a wall on the other side about two meters high,
right?
Yeah, right.
Straight away, and so that's not great for its living. Build a basement, there's a level, ground level, and then four above, and then squeeze a double story penthouse at the top and get a, you know, 16-meter odd high building above ground level. So it's a big building. Um, and as we went through it, I went through it with my builder, Nathan Grimand, and we were, we, you know, working through both in parallel the build cost and the, the economics of where that would be at as, um, at the same time as developing up plans for the, with the architect, you know, that was gonna be a conforming, um, impact assessable DA.
And so you're running these things in parallel to each other, and you're spending money on holding costs and on consultants, and you're hoping that the build cost is gonna come in. And as, the further the process we went down, uh, the, the pa- you know, the, the life cycle, I thought the joy of this project's like getting sucked out 'cause the costs to build this building.
Mm. And as council, council... I'm, I'm sort of bashing council a bit today, but really council were not making it easy for me. They, because they continually objected to our plans and said, "You've got to change them, make it s- smarter, prettier," all this stuff. And it would look better on something on Goodwin Terrace or on the Esplanade.
It would look appropriate 'cause the, of the high level of external finishes they wanted me to do. But it was putting it out of the realms of financial feasibility when it's stuck up, you know, two streets away up the back. Yeah. It just wasn't, wasn't beachfront, right? So, and, you know, 10 months into that process, I thought, "You know, I've spent a lot of money here, uh, on the consultant team.
We've got the application in. It's cruising along, but council's still giving me a hiding about the whole thing." I said, "You know what? I'm gonna run the FEZO again to do townhouses at ground level, so no basement. At ground level I can still..." And then I started to see the vision to make a really great amenity in a townhouse.
Now, units one level, um, living on one level is different to living on four levels, like I'm doing in this, the townhouse project. Um, and I thought, "Well, what's the bridge there?" Okay, you've gotta... If you wanna get people in a townhouse situation, get them up to the rooftop, get them all that amenity, fresh air, swimming pool on the roof, all this beautiful patio area.
And views.
And views. All of that, east and west, see the setting sun, all that stuff. I thought, "Well, what's the bridge?" If it's for someone who can afford to get in that market, they're probably gonna, they're gonna be established, they're gonna be probably a bit older. I've got to put a lift in, and I'm, I can't put a lift in that's like a esky.
In many of these small developments, they put in these tiny little lifts that are not nice at all to be in. Thought, "I've got to put a beautiful lift in," and then I can appeal to that market, get them from the ground up to the rooftop, and it's a great experience, and they think, "Wow, this is really something."
So that's what we did. We, I, I finished those plans. We put the application in. We got our approval. We got a really good approval. Stuart Osman helped me with the, well, you know, did all the design on the approval. And we got a lot of building, so we've ended up on a s- on a 613 square meter site. I've got three townhouses, 300 square meters, and the fourth one at the front is a bit bigger, it's 330.
So I've got 1,230 square meters of building on a 613 square meter site, and it was a really great exercise, and we've got a, we've got a very good approval. And you've got to have a good town planner, and Murray from HPM, HPC, um, Town Planning, excellent, excellent, uh, team To really carry that, uh, application through.
And now we're 60% the way through building that. We'll be finished in December this year. Uh, Grimmans are doing an excellent job on the build, have a very collaborative approach. And the thing I'm really happy about is that we haven't had a blue yet. I love that because they see me as a different client to what they would normally expect.
Like, I'm experienced, I bring in lots of content with regard to structure. You know, we've, we've, we've come up with a great structural system that's pretty straightforward, but it's got lots of architectural merit, and it's a beautiful looking building, and the areas are functional. A bit like my tagline for the Semper Ei Property Group, "Creating beautiful, functional spaces that our clients...
where our clients' lives flourish." And that's so cool to be able to cra- create something that's beautiful, functional, and it... You know, there's a, there's a verse, I think it's a Bible verse, that says, "We create our homes and then our homes create us." And there's really something to that. You know, our home environment, we spend so much time there, really does start to have an, a bearing on who we see ourself as, and, um, it has a creative input into our own lives.
And so I figure that if you build something beautiful, functional, where you can, your life can expand to the space, then that's a great thing, and I think that's what... I love to do that. I've done it a few times and, and people have acknowledged that, and we're certainly doing that in this project in Burleigh where, you know, now we're up to the rooftop.
The views, like, the spaces are just awesome and, you know, as you said- Mm ... we
all have this thing called a roof. Let me delve into that a little bit more because last week I did a podcast and Adam asked me, what do property developers actually do? And you've just reminded me in my subconscious of another project I've...
I'm just getting 15 units, uh, approval for 15 units, um, out in a regional area. Mm. Initially, when I went to the council in a pre-lodgment meeting- Yeah ... I asked them about townhouses-
Mm ...
and I ended up going for units-
Mm ...
because I could, I can get a higher density.
Mm.
Now, you've just done the opposite.
Mm.
You had, you've spent hundred, couple hundred grand- Mm ... in soft costs with a unit project. Mm-hmm. And as a developer, you've re-looked at it and you've done the opposite. You've actually gone and done four townhouses. Mm. How did the numbers change from the, uh, in... Was it a more square meters that you could build, the end prices- Mm
the, the development costs- Mm ... of four townhouses versus the units- Yeah ... that you in. H- what were the difference in the numbers and why did you pivot to the townhouses?
Yeah. Um, the, well, at a, a, a couple of principles. At the highest level, a townhouse is generally vertical separation. Yeah. So everything between those two firewalls, in our case they're block, block work firewalls, everything between those two is yours.
So at each level, whether it's, you know, t- double story, three or four in our case. Um, on a unit you're living above each other. So your unit... And, and generally, and most overwhelmingly, that's gonna be a reinforced concrete structure to provide the fire protection between the, the next door. If you, you know, if you burn- Gotcha
you know, you've set your chips on fire.
Whereas you've got a set back between the townhouses, like a distance between them for a-
Yeah, or you have the, the, the firewall between is- Yeah ... what provides that barrier- Yeah ... in case of fire. Um, so that's, so we've got a class one building- Yeah ... in the, with the townhouses, class one.
Domestic construction with a, with a permanent firewall between them. In the case of the unit design, you're a class two construction server. A lot more consultants involved, particularly in the areas of access, of rubbish removal, but most importantly around fire.
So sprinklers instead of-
Sprinkler systems.
Yep. Yep. There's, you know, kiss $200,000 there. Yep. You've got your access, your gradient of your basement, uh, ramp into, because, um, the fire department wants to know that if they send their firefighters down that ramp-
Yep ...
they can get out. If that fire takes off and they've gotta be able to get out, they're lugging a big fire hose out, they g- the ramp can't be too steep.
It's gotta be, like, one in six or one in five, this sort of thing. If you can't do that, you've gotta find
a- So you're saving money there with, uh, ground floor parking instead of building the basement.
Correct. Yeah. Yeah, the basement itself, the, the shoring, you're building down below adjacent buildings.
Yeah. So you've gotta shore that and hold that up. That's what we do in, you know, engineering and, um, retention structures. Uh, so that's a, that's a cost which is, uh, per square meter is enormous, and no one's living in that space. Whereas on town, uh, again, with townhouses, we're at grade level. We, we build up our site up a few hundred mil, but we're effectively building on ground level so we're not building a excavated basement, and then from there we build up.
And the gross realisable sales from four townhouses as opposed to the units, what, what, what's the difference with your projections? This hasn't happened yet. Yeah. And I hate talking on a podcast about we're gonna do this and gonna do that without real numbers, but-
Yeah ...
what are your projections there?
Well, my projections, I think we're sitting at about $20 million, uh, gross realisation value.
Mm.
Um, the units- would've been about $20 million. But my build cost- Is a lot
less ...
was significantly less. So-
Good on you ...
the build, the, the... And that's argua- I, I believe in what we've done in Sempra Burleigh is, so, so we've got a building being built next door, a brand-new building.
It's a lovely building. Um, they're units, one per floor, with a double-story penthouse, and they've taken up their 15-meter overall height. We- we're also allowed to build 15 meters, but what I wanted to do was push my height in my, and get an ext- get up extra height so all of my units, my, my townhouses could look over the building next door to see the ocean, and they could look to, to the west to see the sun.
And so that gave us... So I said, "Right, what I'm gonna do," and the, you know, Stuart Osmand's probably pulling his hair out, saying, "What, what's he doing now, this bloke?"
This is the building designer. It's the building designer, Stuart
Osmand. I said, "I wanna do a floor and a half." So our living level, instead of being three-meter height, and a three-meter ceiling in a unit is, is large.
I said, "Let's go up to four meters as the ceiling height." That gives us an extra height, uh, to our rooftops, where all the living takes place. Like, we've got our living level, but on our rooftop, we've got magnificent level up there. But if it was down too low and you can't see the view- Mm ... what's the point?
So I said, "Let's go up four meters and we'll be able to, for those rooftop podiums, we've got a swimming pool up there. You g- you're not getting shading from the buildings next door because we're sitting above the buildings next door."
Yeah, right.
Right, so, a- and what that meant was, okay, we've achieved that on the rooftop, and it's cost money to get up there and get that elevation.
But beautifully what it's done, it's created this incredible space on the living level. We've got between three-point-six and, and four-meter ceilings, and you walk in that space and think- Mamma mia, like that is, this is huge
Are you talking four townhouses for $5 million each? Is that what we're talking here with the numbers?
Yes
And have you got any pre-sales, or you're just gonna-
No, we're starting the, the process of, uh, pre-selling now
S- And so you're able to finance that without any pre-sales, which is handy?
Yeah, that's right. The, the... I mean, um, some of the major banks will fund a project like that without pre-sales, but you need- Yeah
a chunk of equity. And m- the lender I'm using is all over it. They love the townhouse model.
Okay. Well, that's just up the road. You're gonna, after this podcast, you're gonna show me through, are you? Gonna
whizz up and show you through and, um-
Sounds great ...
yeah, it's cool. I've done a few tours for people, and, uh, it's a, it's a joy to be able to share that information, and, um, a- and what we've done and why we've done what we've done.
Fantastic. We'll, uh, we'll, we'll go there in a moment.
Sure.
Before we finish the podcast, I'd like to ask you, you, you have, uh, a property development, uh, mentoring program that you're about to launch. Yeah Can you tell us about that?
Yeah, sure And
what, what, why you're doing it- Mm-hmm ... and who you're trying to help.
Look, I, uh, uh... You mentioned earlier, Andrew, and, um, I started the Manshit podcast. Why did I do that? 'Cause it was never meant to be a revenue, uh, inspired podcast. I wanted to empower men, and I wanted to... I, I've done, you know, it's ano- another whole story, but stuff that's happened in my life, I've had to overcome various things and some very traumatic things, and, uh, the mindset I developed as a kid, uh, was probably not as healthy as, um, ideally it would've been, and I was dealing with all these things that had occurred.
So I realized that I've gone down a pretty inefficient path, and I wanted to be able to provide some lessons to younger men, or any men for that matter, uh, that I've had to nut out for myself through blood, sweat, and tears, and I wanted to be able to offer that as part of my purpose of being on this planet so that guys don't have to maybe suffer unnecessarily like I've, I've suffered some things unnecessarily.
So that was the inspiration there. And the pod- the, my property mentoring is not too dissimilar to that. You know, there's, in Australia, property is huge. People love, they identify with property. High level of home ownership in this country. And I meet people all the time who, "Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm thinking about doing a development one day."
Oh, yeah, yeah. So everyone likes that idea of expanding, and whether that development is a single house or it's a townhouses or whatever it is, the basis to it all is the feasibility. And I knew this, and I, I got very good at doing feasibilities and developed my own Excel software for that. I started teaching that to people.
Just before I left to go overseas in, uh, 2017, '18, I was teaching my feasibility mastery in the Gold Coast in Sydney, and people loved it because it was very practical, very imple- implementable. I had my book, which covers the same points, and I just wanted to contribute. And I realised that as well, in, in terms of contributing to others, you can charge money for that because there's huge value in that.
And it's from two points of view. You don't have to do much right in property development to If you, if you get, make some errors, if you overpay for land, if you make errors on the way you buy land and you end up having to pay GST, uh, if you, uh, make errors in the way you engage with a builder or trades or suppliers, it can cost you a lot more money, and it's all avoidable.
But you don't learn... You learn that over many, many years. I've been doing... I've been in this whole ecosystem for 35 years. I took two years out as an investment banker, uh, in the middle of my career, but all of my career has been in this from carpentry, if you like, uh, as a scale, from carpentry and trade work and, and pushing a broom around, up to developing projects for t- Toyota and doing my own projects.
So I've had a lot of experience, and I'm just someone who am, uh, happy to share. I love building connections and relationships, and I'm always happy to share, um, if I can help, uh, to, in a similar way to the Manship Podcast. If I can help someone not make a catastrophic choice in, in a property development, then they're gonna be appreciative of me and I've, I've added value to someone's life.
So that's the beginnings of the mentorship, and I've got a, I've got a, a structure to, to teach people in a methodical way that they gr- gain confidence so that when they take on a project, maybe it's their first project, maybe it's another project, they take it on with a greater de- degree of confidence that they're not gonna stuff it up.
Mm-hmm.
And we don't want people stuffing it up, 'cause they can take a long time to recover if you stuff things up.
And if someone needs your mentorship, uh, you'll... Are you providing advice on land subdivisions, luxury home builds, townhouses, units, the whole box and dice?
Everything and, everything, and it all comes through the feasibility is the core.
Mm-hmm. The feasibility is your forward profit and loss projection for a project. So if you get good at that, and you get efficient at that, you can... I mean, I, I meet people, "How'd you go with, uh, talk," you know, "How'd you go with that block of land? You told me you were gonna do some unit..." "Gee, I'm still looking at it."
I say, "But hang on. L- that was six months ago." Yeah. "Oh, yeah, it's not sold yet." "Well, if it's not sold, do you reckon maybe they've overpriced it and you're still looking at it, so you're wasting your time?"
Mm-hmm. "
Oh, God." So if I can help people to get good- Mm ... with their feaso-
Mm ...
then they're gonna be able to short-circuit the timeframe they're spending on projects which otherwise would've been a, they're, it's a dead job anyway.
It's never gonna happen. Mm. So but people need to sharpen up their own skill to understand that. And when they get some mastery around that, and they, they become confident, then y- you know, you, then they've got... That's the right place to launch into a, a project and put your money behind it.
Dave, you've got a fascinating story- Yeah
an, an amazing amount of experience and, uh, the, you know, integrity, education, character-
Mm ...
uh, determination, perseverance, an Ironman- Yeah ... uh, amazing sort of stuff-
Mm ...
an author, podcast host, uh, a mentor of property developers.
Mm.
Uh, thank you so much for your time today.
Been my absolute pleasure, Andrew.
Thanks, Dave. We're gonna, um, include a link to Dave so you can contact him if you'd like to be in touch. And- Mm ... I'm going to have a look at Dave's four, $5 million townhouses now, and I'll give you a review next week in the podcast.
Let's go.
Thanks, Dave.
Fantastic. Thank you. Hi, my name's Dave Kelly. I'm the CEO of the Sempre Property Group.
I've got a love affair with Burleigh. The national park, the beach itself, the connection to the community. And the Burleigh Village, as it's known, is truly like a village where you get to know your neighbors
Semper means forever and always. And the reason why I chose Semper Burleigh is because Burleigh is there, it's always been there, and it's always going to be there
We're building something in Sempre Burleigh, but what it's going to do is create this sense of permanency and experience that the residents can enjoy as they live their life. We've specced the fittings in the project to suit an astute buyer. It's not a first homeowner's project. We've chosen materials which are really natural materials.
Woolen carpets, for example, in the bedrooms, timber floors. We've got granite bench tops. All these things which are part of nature, it resonates the sense of nature that you see as a resident living there. You see the ocean, you see the sand on Burleigh Beach, you see the whales.
It's something where the space itself creates an ability for people's lives to actually grow and flourish and to be all that they can be