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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 56 (Anna Rollins)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And today I'm joined by Anna Rollins.
Anna is the author of Famished on Food, sex, and growing up as a good girl. Her groundbreaking debut memoir examines the rhyming scripts of diet, culture and evangelical purity culture, both of which direct women to fear their own bodies and appetites. Her writing has appeared in outlets like The New York Times Slate Electric Literature Salon, joy Land, and More. She's also written scholarly articles about composition and writing center studies.
She's an award-winning instructor who taught English in higher education for nearly 15 years. She is a 2025 Tamarack Foundation for the Arts Literary Arts fellow. A lifelong Appalachian, she lives with her husband in West Virginia where they're raising their three small children.
So thanks for joining me today, Anna. It's great to [00:01:00] have this conversation.
Anna Rollins: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. So I'm gonna start here because there were a few quotes from your memoir, which, um, I highly recommend, um, in which you talked about this sort of disappearance. You know, you write early on that you were drawn, um, to memoirs as a teenager.
Um, and that one, particularly by Mara Hornbacher, sparked this revelation. Perhaps I was drawn to disappearance because it was precisely what I had been told I, as a woman, needed to do. Um, and then later on towards the end of your book you write, I had to acknowledge that for me, a diet is dangerous. That I find disappearance a most interesting project, that I have the tendency to communicate my emotions, not by opening my mouth, but by shutting it up, not allowing anything or anyone in.
And yet here we are talking about your soon to be published book. You're, you know, posting a lot about social media raising awareness, and so like for. [00:02:00] A female who has been told her whole life to disappear. How did you get to a point where you were comfortable enough to allow us into your your secrets.
Anna Rollins: Well, that's a, that's a good que very, it's very counter to everything I'm writing about, right? Yeah. So I'm writing, uh uh, my book examines the rhyming scripts of purity culture and diet culture. And both of those scripts teach women that, um. You need to be small to be safe, good and righteous. And so being outspoken and visible, it feels very counter to everything I've been taught.
I, I, I would say it took a lot of time. Um, I wrote about these topics privately for, um, I mean my whole life. And then I majored in creative writing and I got a master's, um, related to writing. I always wanted to write about these topics and I would [00:03:00] privately, and then when it would be time for me to submit something for class, I would write something quickly, something else, anything entirely other than what I actually wanted to write about.
Um, I. So I definitely suppressed a lot, right? These stories for years. Um, and something happened to me in the pandemic. Um, I had experienced a traumatic postpartum, um, birth, and, uh, then the pandemic happened and I just had this moment where I, I was like writing furiously about all these topics and just knew I would never be able to.
Share any of it. And, um, I had this moment where I realized like, we could all die.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. Yeah.
Anna Rollins: Like I, I know that everyone felt that, but like, I remember exactly where I had that thought. Like, I was in the kitchen. I had just gotten my baby down for a nap. My toddler was, I don't know what he was doing. Maybe I was getting him a [00:04:00] snack.
Who knows?
Andrew Camp: Right.
Anna Rollins: But I just had this moment where I thought like, it, it was maybe a month into the pandemic. My husband was an essential worker. And I thought I could die. Like I have this story I wanna tell, like I wanna do this more. I, I'd started going to therapy just before the pandemic. Um, and we'd been focusing on like, my struggle with disordered eating.
And it was the first time I'd ever really talked to anyone about it at all. And I just remember even on the ride to the therapist's office thinking like, I probably shouldn't tell her this. You're not really supposed to talk about these things. This is so embarrassing. Like, um, and. Like I, I realized that I could die.
Um, and so then I started slowly showing people my writing. That's kind of how I first started opening up. Right. Um, and then I had a book length manuscript that I thought was pretty good. Um, [00:05:00] and I started taking some classes and I realized that, um, if. I wanted my story to be out there. I would have to do the exact opposite of what I'd believed was appropriate for me to do my entire life.
Um, and so I did that and it didn't always feel good. No. It still doesn't always feel good. Like, um, if, like when I'm showing up on social media talking about disordered eating, I mean, I, I like to, when I show up, um, on social media, I will notice that I often like talk about. Talk about it in academic ways.
'cause like the memoir is very, very personal and vulnerable. Right. Um, but like, even when I'm showing up online, I, I like to be a little bit safer and distance myself. And I, I have an academic background. I taught in higher ed for, um, for almost 15 years. So I, I even noticed that I like, [00:06:00] kind of protect myself in that way.
Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I just started. Telling. I, I had something higher that I was going after, um, and I realized that the scripts I had been following were not going to get me there. Yeah. So it's not totally comfortable. Um, it's not comfortable at all. But I've gotten, you know, you, you develop resilience.
You right. Realize that it doesn't matter so much how people perceive you, like you can withstand judgment. Um, I think that it's actually like been a process that's helped me feel more comfortable in my body too. Like, um, knowing that you might be judged and being okay with it.
Andrew Camp: I appreciate it.
'cause, 'cause yeah, like reading those lines, I was like, okay, like here's, here's somebody who is fighting against a script that she's believed her whole life and the courage it takes, [00:07:00] um, to put it out there, you know, is it, is commendable. And so, um, yeah. I really appreciate you ha finding that courage to share, share your story with us.
Anna Rollins: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I, and so, yeah, go ahead.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so I, obviously, people need to read the book to get your full, this full script of what you, you've lived in. So, but can you give. Might the listeners sort of a glimpse into where you've come from, like who you are, like what? Who, who is Anna?
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Yeah. Um, so I grew up, I, I'm a lifelong West Virginian and I've lived in West Virginia my whole life. Um, and I grew up going to a small, private Christian school that was baptistic. It was more fundamentalist. Um, and I grew up going to church. I was in a Southern Baptist church. Um. We went three times a week.
Um, we were very, uh, church was my whole life. I didn't really know people [00:08:00] outside of that world, um Right. And, uh, I was really good at church. And being a Christian girl, I was really quiet and submissive and like, people often referred to me as shy and, um, but I was hardworking. Like I. I was a good girl and, um, I was privately struggling with disordered eating, which is something that, um, 80% of women with, with at some point in their lifetime will struggle with.
Wow. And I, um, it was, it was a spiritual problem for me. I recognized that. As a young girl. Um, I remember, and there's a scene in famished where I talk about this, but I was in a sermon at my Christian school and the preacher was talking about idols of the heart, and he talked about how like. Idols aren't just things that we, that you like, these figures you make and you bow down [00:09:00] to, um, they're anything that you love more than God.
And he listed things that could be idols of the heart. And he listed things like, uh, sex or drugs or. Uh, relationships or blah, blah, blah. And he didn't list mine, which was my body. Hmm. I was 12 or 13 years old. I was obsessively counting calories and exercising and it was just all I could think about all the time.
And I felt guilt about it because I knew that I cared about this thing more than God. I also didn't know how to stop it. It was like this thing, I didn't have the language for it. It had kind of taken over me. And I remember during that sermon he asked us at the end, which there so many, so many things that I'm unpacking from my childhood about like, like shame and um, right authority.
And, um, but he asked us at the end, to close your eyes, bow our heads, and like, raise your hand if you have an idol. And I remember like raising my hand and thinking [00:10:00] that someone would come and help, like, talk to me and help me. And then maybe finally, like someone would be able to help me with this thing.
Um. And I raised my hand and no one ever came. And I like remember, like running out of there afterward, thinking like, oh my gosh, it's so embarrassing. Like, I can never tell anyone about this. People just think like, I'm attention seeking and like, um, I was so embarrassed.
But this, uh. Obsession this like hold that food and, and that it had on me it just followed me my whole life. And eventually, like I did talk to Christian leaders about it, like in this very nervous, like reserved way. And I, um, remember being dismissed, like being told like, oh, a lot. Uh, most women struggle with that. Like it's not that big of a deal. And um, like I knew how big of a deal it was, but I [00:11:00] just kinda learned through that.
Like, oh, well, like you just can't let anyone know about this thing, right? This is just something you have to like hide because people don't know how to handle it. They think you're attention seeking. Um. Yeah. And so that, that that's, that's, uh, who I was as a child and a teenager. And, um, and I write about my journey, uh, in, in Famished.
Andrew Camp: And so, you know, control became this sort of central idea, it feels like throughout the book of like, if only I can control, you know, the eating, you know, my. You know, and when you had kids it was the nap schedule, the feeding routines, you know. And um, and so what, how did control show up in religion and how did this idea of control that you learned maybe from your religion help or maybe not help but hinder your right relationship with food?
Anna Rollins: Yeah, I [00:12:00] mean, I think that purity culture. So purity culture was a movement that arose in response to the AIDS crisis. It wasn't just something that happened in the church, it was something that happened on a political level in the 1990s. And, um, so purity culture is not just traditional sexual ethics. Um, but the, one of the like main teachings in it is that, um.
Good. Like you have to be in tight control of your body, like, um, and it's especially directed toward women. Um. In purity culture, usually men are kind of painted as these like animalistic, uh, people who are in charge, but they can't control themselves. And so you women who are like more pure and angelic, um, you are the gatekeepers.
You are the ones who need to keep these, these animals in line who you also have to submit to. Um, and so like a lot of these, like, I mean it's just, [00:13:00] it's mind boggling for a young person to like have to navigate these. Uh, contrasting things. Um, but in that, in that milieu, like I learned that being a good woman, being a good Christian meant that you controlled yourself.
And so, um, and that translated to like, I mean, all, all areas like self discipline, like one of the ways you showed that you were a Christian was that you worked really hard and you were. Always kind, you always had a smile on your face. Like, um, it was a lot of like keeping up appearances. I didn't really, I know that there were pastors who talked about grace and forgiveness, um, but I'm not sure they really understood it because it was, it was always kind of an afterthought.
Um, it was always kind of like. But don't let things get outta hand. Yeah. [00:14:00] Yeah. And so that, that was, um, that was the theology that I was brought up with and that theology is really damaging. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, and I think it's too, it's, you know, um, growing up in the evangelical culture myself, like, you know, the world is bad, our bodies are bad, our bodies need to be tamed or put under control.
Um, like there's a verse from Paul that I can't recall to mind, but, you know, like, you know, controlling the body, uh, you know, or beating the body into submission almost. I feel like, you know, and so like this idea of bodies being bad and our desires being bad even comes up for you, I think for all of us.
Like, who are we in this flesh? And so I think it, it impacts us all.
Anna Rollins: Yeah, and I, I think that, so I, um, was in a fundamentalist environment, and so there was a lot of [00:15:00] extreme thinking, black and white, right? Everything's a binary, and so it's hard to, like, not all of our desires are good, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah.
But in, in a fundamentalist framework. It's either one or the other. You're not looking for meaning in the midst of like contrast or nuance. Um, and I think that, like that verse from Paul, like that needs to be contextualized with so much about like what God says about creation being good and us being made in the image of God.
Like, um, but that wasn't really. Um, at least from the perspective of my child's self, that wasn't really something I was taught to do was to find meaning and nuance or in paradox, right? It was, um, it was a lot of extreme thinking, uh, plain reading of the Bible rather than something that's contextual.
Andrew Camp: And so as you've grown and you know, you're seeking [00:16:00] healing, like how have you sought to.
Move past binary thinking and sort of maybe move towards a more nuanced view. Like how has that shaped your healing?
Anna Rollins: I, I, um, I mean, I read widely, but I like to, um, my husband and I don't agree on every single issue, and I like to hash. I like to fight. Okay. Yeah, I like to debate and I think that like, um, a lot of us can really benefit from like really having honest conversations with people who disagree with us.
Like honest, loving, like generous conversations with people who don't hold the exact same view. 'cause I think that forces you to step outside of yourself and outside of like your rigid mindset. Um. I had a, we had some people over from church a few weeks ago, and I had a [00:17:00] conversation in the kitchen with one of my friend's dads who he and I voted the exact, and we didn't vote the same way.
Right. Um. And we didn't agree at the end of the conversation, but it was like the most loving, um, beautiful conversation. I made us tea about two hours into it, we were just standing in the kitchen. Yeah. Made some tea and at the end of it, like, we're not gonna vote the same way. Um, but we hugged each other.
It, it was beautiful. And so like more of that
Andrew Camp: right.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, those honest conversations, um, loving conversations, curiosity, um, is so vital. Um, but even, and so something else that I think is, I'm curious about, um, you know, it's 'cause you talk about it that, you know, even in the bio you sent me that, um, there is this significant overlap between modern day diet, culture, and purity culture.
Um, can you unpack that [00:18:00] for, for us? 'cause I think for us, you know, for men, for people who don't see the, these significant overlap, like, what do you mean? And like how, how is our society forcing women into something uncomfortable and unhealthy?
Anna Rollins: Yeah. I, I think that, I mean, both are really focused on control, um, controlling appetites, um, which.
Some, sometimes again, like nuance, we sometimes we need to control our appetites. But I think that, um, uh, there, there is, um, both are kind of in service to patriarchy. Like a, a lot of time, not all of diet culture, especially like certain branches of wellness culture. But a lot of times, like with diet culture and purity culture, like ultimately you are doing these things in service to men, um, in service to.
Like you are gaining your power through. Um, [00:19:00] like your body is a way of reaching who has more power, which is a man. Um, it both teach women that their appetite should be small. That, um, there is like a very particular like size or like, uh, like box that they need to be in. Um. Yeah. They're, they're, they kind of run parallel to each other.
Andrew Camp: And you even point out that I found fascinating is that sort of this modern, ideal image of women that you know has pervaded society of thinness actually is a modern invention that came about post-Civil War to actually racialize black bodies.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, the oppressive nature of all of society like just feels overwhelming at times.
Anna Rollins: Yeah. That, that's something I learned [00:20:00] in my, um. Like, one of the ways that I tried to heal was through reading just widely. And when I learned about how like the thin ideal emerged, um, during, like, as a response to the transatlantic slave trade, it was a way of white women differentiating themselves.
Um, it just kind of shook me when I realized like this wasn't ha, like the thin ideal didn't always exist. It existed as a way for, um, it, it, it's part of white supremacy. Right. And I have been playing into it my whole life without knowing it, but I'm still complicit. Um, that was, that was so really powerful and like horrified.
It was something I really had to wrap my head around. Um, like how, when, I mean, eating disorders are complicated. It's a mental illness, it's hard environment. [00:21:00] It's, it's so many different things, right? But part of it is like you're chasing power. Um mm-hmm. That is, and you are trying to access power, um, and.
When I realized that like one of the ways I was trying to access power was like so deeply rooted in white supremacy that was really, um, like that, that's something that like, I can't just blame other people for either. I can't be like, this is something that people did to me. Like I have to take some accountability for that and that's something I need to repent from.
Like. I have been sinned against, but I have also sinned. Like they're both functioning at the same time.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. Again, I think it's that nuanced view Yeah. Of like, it's not black or it's not either or, uh, you know, but both. And if like, okay, yeah. What's our part? What, what's our complicit complicity in the systems?
Um, that, you know, yes, we inherit, [00:22:00] but we still function within.
Anna Rollins: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It, I mean, I can't just say you the church or you the patriarchy or Right. If I can just say like, you did this to me, even though that's part of it. Like I can't also say like, it's all okay. It's like, like it, we are, I was thinking today about how, um, bullied people often bully, like a lot of times, like we.
We like, there's this cycle and we're Yeah. We find ourselves caught int Yeah,
Andrew Camp: The oppressed wants to become the oppressor. Yeah. Whereas that's not the healthy healing that needs to happen. Yeah. Uh, and so like you, you write this memoir and yet obviously it includes bigger themes. Um, and so what, what do you hope this book brings?
To the world or to even, you know, to smaller aspect, like to evangelicalism. Um, as we continue to reckon [00:23:00] with all of our skeletons in our closets,
Anna Rollins: I hope it opens up a conversation. I hope that, um, people start unpacking the things that we've kind of added on. To Christianity, like how much self-help culture has really taken hold Right.
In Christian circles. Um, how much the, I mean, purity culture and diet culture operate by the same logic as the prosperity gospel. Mm-hmm. Um. I, I hope that we start talking about those things and we tease them out and we see them not as Christian, but as, um, bad theology that hurts people.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Anna Rollins: I hope that, um, women feel some permission to speak about their own experiences.
I always felt like, um, my experiences were embarrassing, but I also really didn't feel like I could move past them until I reckoned with them right. I, so, so I hope that it, [00:24:00] uh, gives women permission to talk and for people to reexamine some of the teachings that they may have just taken for granted. I, I, like, I don't think that, um, people always go about teaching these things because they're like evil, horrible people.
I think that sometimes there's just like a blind spot, and I would love it if this just shines some light on things that need to be reconsidered.
Andrew Camp: And I love like the idea of starting conversations. Can we talk about this? 'cause I think, you know, you touch on it in famished where, um, mental disorders have become more okay to talk about, but yet eating disorders, disordered eating still feels very shameful or it's not as talked about.
Mm-hmm. And yet, you know, you point out that there. It was a study done by a pediatrics jour journal, and that one in five kids struggled with disordered eating during COVID. [00:25:00] Um, you said 80% of women will struggle with disordered eating at some point in their life. And so like, why given its prevalence, why are we so ashamed to talk about it?
And I, I, I own this for myself. Like it's not something I explore my love of food in the table. I even remember when I started this journey, I had a couple females come up to me and say, Andrew, that's not everyone's experience. Like, make sure, like, be aware that not everybody loves the table. Um,
Anna Rollins: yeah. And
Andrew Camp: yet it's, I still haven't explored it.
Um, and so like I own it myself and you know, I have family members that struggle with disordered eating. So like why is disordered eating still such, feels like such a taboo? For people to talk about.
Anna Rollins: I mean, I have a few idea. I think.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Anna Rollins: Part of it is it's connected to sex. Like I think that part of it is, and like, [00:26:00] um, I think that's part of it.
I think that, uh, women, um, especially in conservative cultures, like, like sex is taboo. And yet they're also taught that their bodies are the most important things about them. Like, um, finding a and then bearing children like your body is kind of like the central thing. Um, so I think there's that double bind where like, you shouldn't Good, good Christian women don't talk about sex, but also like the body is the most important thing.
Um, I think. I think that part of it is, um, disordered eating. It's in cultures of abundance One way, uh, Rene Girard talks about this, um, it, when he talks about mimicry, um, in cultures of abundance, one way we demonstrate our superiority is by [00:27:00] abstaining from things. And so, um. I think that disordered eating is competitive and there's like rivalry there and I think that, um, there's something very icky about that.
Like it does have to do with seeking power and I think that a lot of people wouldn't want to admit that or feel ashamed about that, but I think we see that even like. You can kind of hear it when someone, if someone brags about their diet, like you can kind of hear the moral superiority. Um, and I'm saying that as someone who I'm, I'm like not judging.
I, I've felt that. Yeah. Um, so I think that, um, that component feels icky. Um, it doesn't, it doesn't make the person look the best in that light. I also think that, um. It's often associated with women. And I think that, um, a lot of times things that are [00:28:00] associated with women are not taken as seriously or they're viewed as small or trivial or, um, infantilizing.
Hmm. And I think that, um, disordered eating is often. People often think of it as like something teenage girls struggle with and like, we love to make fun of tea. Teenage girls, like her culture does not take a teenage girl very seriously at all the media she likes, like, um, and so I think that especially if someone is, if someone wants to be taken seriously, they don't want to identify with that struggle, um, because they know that they will be diminished.
So I. It's layered.
Andrew Camp: It's such a hard topic to D address and it's, you know, I even told you this before we started recording. I feel unsure, you know, of how to talk, you know, and have a discussion that helps people shed light, you know, and so that's like owning it and like, okay, how do we move past the [00:29:00] discomfort and how do we help?
Young women who are reckoning with their bodies and who are they? Um, like come to a healthy sense of self. Like, you know, I have two daughters, like it's ever present of like, okay, how do we help them have healthy body images and one's doing ballet? Which, you know, luckily the place she's taking ballet, they feel like they have good, healthy boundaries and you know, aren't asking.
Girls to do things that make them unhealthy. So yeah, like it's, it's ever present I think, for us to reckon with. And it's, yet it's so hard to have a conversation.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You point out, um, just even some of the language in scripture is not helpful, you know? And there was one point that stuck out because it's such a vital image.
For me of like this table that we're going to banquet in heaven, um, you know that you say that, that that imagery can even be triggering. And so like [00:30:00] how have you reckoned with different images in scripture that sort of point to a feast that may not sit well with you, but then like what images could we help people understand of like, you know, God inviting us to a banquet, like which is something for me that's very comforting yet for you.
You say it was a triggering image, and so like, how do we, how do we be aware? Just even of language?
Anna Rollins: Yeah. I, I don't, I don't feel that way anymore. It's not, it's not. No.
Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah.
Anna Rollins: Yeah. But, um, I, when I wrote this book, I spoke to dozens of women about, I asked them the question, how did purity culture impact your relationship with your own body?
And I spoke to so many women who. Talked about, um, church potlucks and how judged they felt at them and how they, especially women who were like in larger bodies, they felt like their morality was under surveillance as they like put different items of food on their [00:31:00] plate.
I think that, um, being aware that a lot of times people feel that their morality is being judged based upon like the food they're eating or their body size and like.
Um, just being aware that that is a cultural force and it's not, uh, it's not absent in the church. In fact, like sometimes it's even more present. It's just been unexamined. I think that, um, I, I, I think that being aware of that and, um, acknowledging that food is not always a comforting thing for. Every person.
Um, and it's not their fault. And I think that someday it might be like, like the idea of like, it's actually very comforting to think about like, uh, being in a place where you are not sitting under the burden of all that judgment. Um, I, I think that's [00:32:00] very comforting. But I, I think that having that, that conversation about how like.
What you're experiencing now won't always be what you experience. I think that could be helpful.
Andrew Camp: And I think too, I love what you said that, you know, women feel that their morality's being judged by the shape of their body. Um, and yet that's not true for men. Like, you know, um, the size of a, you know, overweight pastors aren't somebody who's judged like, oh, well you just have a rough lifestyle.
Like, you know. It, it's not your fault. Whereas, you know, that's not true the, the language we use for females. And so I think just the double standard, um, is just not fair.
Anna Rollins: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I don't think that men are, uh, I mean it, I think it's certainly harder. The cultural forces are working against women more, but I don't, I don't think that men are immune from, um, body size judgment.
I think that. We do some, we do [00:33:00] equate, we think of self-discipline as good. Yeah. No, we believe that self-discipline manifests in a particular body size. Right. Um, yeah. But I mean, but it certainly, it, it's certainly a message that is more targeted toward women. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: There was a couple months ago I was listening to a podcast.
It's the Progressive Christian podcast, and they had a young man on who was just talking about some of these new. Disor, I don't even know if disorders. There's like, you know, these young men that are struggling with body image, um, issues. And it was really fascinating. So, yeah, no, I think it's impacting, you know, men and women differently, but I think within the church we've seen it impact maybe women.
The, the messaging to women has been very different than it seems than to men.
Anna Rollins: Yeah. I mean, I think that, especially depending on the type of church you're in, so I, I was in complementarian circles,
Andrew Camp: right.
Anna Rollins: Um, I'm, I'm still in many complementarian [00:34:00] circles and I'll challenge it. Yeah. But, um, like the, the messaging there is that like you are submitting to, like, you are supposed to be smaller, your desires are supposed to sort of be in service too.
Your husband, like mm-hmm. Um, and I like you can take that same logic and apply it to food. Um, yeah.
Andrew Camp: I think too, as you move towards healing in your book, and you began to reckon with this journey, something that you talk about is sort of these grounding experiences. Um, one that stuck out to me is during COVID you were walking in a cemetery with, with your small kids and.
I think you were wrestling with being, you know, torn out of your body or like, you know, you're, and like the chapel bells sort of re-grounded you. And so like what was that process and like, how has sort of this groundedness helped [00:35:00] you? Obviously healing looks different for every person, but like for you, this groundedness seemed to be important for your healing.
Anna Rollins: Yeah, I, um. For a while, I thought, am I just gonna have to leave the church? Like, am I gonna have to leave Christianity in order to heal from this? Right? Because I felt so closely intertwined. Um, and I really wrestled with that. Like, I, yeah, part, like when I was writing the book, I wasn't totally sure. I don't, I don't know if I'm gonna stay.
Um, but I realized that like the no amount of therapeutic. Like, I needed something to take me outside of myself. Like I wanted a tran, I wanted a transcendent experience. I didn't wanna keep focusing on myself so much. And that was something that Christianity offered me. Um, just like the ability to look up, like pray or like listen to the bells or, um.
Like [00:36:00] something that took me outside of myself. And I think that a lot of what I experienced in Christianity was like very self-focused, self-improvement focused. And like, um, I, and, and I do think that I, I think that, uh, I wrote a memoir, so I, I clearly, I'm, I've, I've reflected on myself, but, um, but I think that, yeah, like.
That, that has been very healing for me. Like to not just like, get so caught up in, in everything that's in my head, all these rules and like just to like look outside. Um, yeah.
Andrew Camp: And, and so now you're raising kids and you're reckoning with your faith and staying and like, what, what does parenting, you know, I guess two questions, like what does parenting look like?
For you as you're seeking to raise, um, three kids. And then what does faith look like?
Anna Rollins: Um, [00:37:00] like with regards to how I talk to your journey? Yeah. Bodies. Um, I, I hope that, so I'm raising them in some similar traditions and I'm hoping that they, um. They hear us debate and we talk about, um, issues and we say like, some people believe this, other peoples believe, believe this.
I try to like show them diversity of thought and like nuance. Um, I try to have compassion for myself and for them. Um. I realized that like my, my oldest son is very similar to how I was. He is a very good little boy. He, you know, he regulates his own screen [00:38:00] time and he practices, I don't even have to tell him to go practice his, his piano.
He just does it like, um, and so I'm on the lookout for, um. What might be under that too, like yeah. Attempt attempts at control or, um, I'm on the lookout for that as well. Um, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question.
Andrew Camp: No, it's, it's just helpful, like, yeah, like, just as you think back on your journey, like, you know, raising kids just obviously brings up all of our issues, um, for good and for bad, right?
Like it brings out the best and the worst in us. And so, you know. I, it's just, I find it interesting to talk to people who, who've journeyed in seeking to do something different and like, how, how do we not pass on, you know, our, all of our junk? You know? I think it's, [00:39:00] but help our kids move towards a healthier, you know, in all aspects like, you know, um, of life.
I'd be curious if you could go back to your teenage self or maybe even your pre-teen self.
And, and talk to her, like what would you want to say to her, or what would you have wanted to hear, heard say to you?
Anna Rollins: Hmm. I think that I would like to tell her that if you take a risk, you do something wrong or someone does something wrong to you, or if you take a risk, there is grace and there is forgiveness.
I think that I was so afraid of doing the wrong thing, like making a mistake or, um, I think I was so hypervigilant 'cause I don't think I believed that like grace and [00:40:00] forgiveness existed. And so I would like to give her some assurance of that. And I don't know that my life would look that different.
Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. I'm, I'm happy with my life, but, um, yeah. Yeah. But I like so much pain and anguish and like, um, so many like kind of meaningless, but also like, uh, like, like joyous things that I didn't do because I was so afraid that it. I'm, I was so afraid of the consequences, um, the potential consequences, not even, yeah.
Um, yeah, I, I wish that, I wish that that had been more of my theological framework. And I guess when I think back, like your question about, um, what I'm doing differently with my children, I keep trying to tell them. And my mom probably said this to me, maybe I just didn't hear it [00:41:00] with all the other noise.
'cause I think my mom, she was a really great mom. Um, but I think I would like, I, I try to tell my kids that, um, if I will love them no matter what. Like, like, and you're, you don't have to be perfect for me to keep loving you. And like, um, reassurance of that.
Andrew Camp: Hmm. Yeah. Um, you mentioned that, you know, you would hope the experience of grace could be more prevalent, and so what does Grace look like for Anna these days?
Anna Rollins: Um hmm.
What does it look like for me? Um.
I shouldn't be blanking on this either or like what, what's a recent experience of grace? Yeah. [00:42:00] Uh, I, I'm thinking about, so I, I think that something I've struggled with is like having to. Have everything in order. Um, I feel like I have to have everything figured out for, um, for me to be okay for. And I think that, um, being messy, even like in my belief system, um, not having like all the answers for everything, um, like, uh.
I, I've had a lot of, uh, like difficulty in, in church where I feel like if I'm misaligned with something, someone in charge of saying that I am either [00:43:00] wrong and I'm a terrible person, or they're wrong and they're a terrible person, like being okay with just like some, not everything always has to line up.
Um, mm-hmm. That, that sounds small, but that's been like, I live, I live a lot of my life in my head. Yeah. And so, um, even like going to church and like hearing a pastor say something that I don't totally align with and not like automatically feeling like one of us is like a bad person. Um, just being able to like sit in the.
Just like the discord there. Yeah. Um, that, that feels like grace to be able to do that. Like, um, like I, I, I was in a sermon, or I was at church yesterday and the sermon was on fasting and I was like, I don't, I don't agree with this interpretation of all this stuff. I'm like, I think for religious fasting is fine and good, but like there were things that were missed.
And [00:44:00] I was like, like, but I walked away from it and I was like, we're allowed to be like two different people who have. Two different views of the world because of our personal experiences and our reading backgrounds. And like, that doesn't mean either one of us is like bad or wrong, like, um, and that, that feels like grace to be able to, to like live that way rather than feeling just like this, like anger or frustration or, Hmm.
That sounds small, but that's like a, a lot of what goes on in my head, so, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Anna Rollins: yeah.
Andrew Camp: I love that too because I think you mentioned it and I've seen you, we see it of swapping one fundamentalism for another. Mm-hmm. You know, like those of us who were raised fundamentalists or evangelicalism that, you know, we see all the wrongs perpetuated by the tradition.
It's easy for us just to go to the other side and think that they're the enemy now, or like. Everybody's bad who doesn't agree with me. [00:45:00] Mm-hmm. Um, but that's not, and so I love that the grace for you is just recognizing the goodness of disagreement or that hey, we're all trying to make sense, you know? And yes, we need correction, but like we can disagree and still find grace.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh, it's a question I ask all of my guests as we wrap, begin to wrap up. What's the story you want the church to tell?
Anna Rollins: The story, the story about, um, you mean just in general?
Andrew Camp: In general, yeah. Just whatever free association.
Anna Rollins: Oh. Um, I, I think I want the church to tell first and foremost that we're loved, which like, sounds really like, that sounds easy, but love is really, really hard and that we're loved.
I also think it's important that we know. We're sinners. Like I, I still, I believe in sin, like I, yeah, I, um, but [00:46:00] that there is forgiveness. Um, so I, I think that, but you can't talk about sin without knowing that you are deeply and like radically loved. Like I think that, um, I, I think that you have to have that first thing, um, otherwise people just sink.
Yeah. So, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Appreciate that. Um, and then some fun questions about food just to close. What's one food you refuse to eat?
Anna Rollins: So I, um, my husband used to work in a clinic like in the backwoods of West Virginia, like in a holler. And one day, I don't know if it was roadkill, but someone made chili out of squirrel and he brought some of it home and, nope.
No, no. Squirrel. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, they like, it was iffy about how the squirrel reached its end.
Andrew Camp: End. Yeah. And I'm, I'm guessing it, it required more than [00:47:00] one squirrel. 'cause squirrels I don't think of as meaty, you know, like,
Anna Rollins: yeah, it was, it was squirrel, but wow. Yeah. So maybe this, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, that's fair. I, I I might join you on that.
Refuse all there. Yeah, he tried. He said it was
Anna Rollins: gaming. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Okay. He tried it was gaming. Okay.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?
Anna Rollins: So when I was, um, pregnant with my first son, there was this. Uh, there was this cafe that's since closed. It was called Let's Eat.
Um, and they had this sandwich called an nada, and it was non bred and they also put pasta inside it. So one of my friends called it a spaghetti sandwich. Okay. But it was spaghetti. Then your choice of meat and then a bunch of different veggies like olives and um, onion and yeah, lettuce, and then like this thousand island type dressing.
It was delicious and I, I really. My, my first son is [00:48:00] probably made out of that, so.
Andrew Camp: Okay. That's, that sounds like Yeah, I've, I've never, again, never heard of something quite like that and
Anna Rollins: spaghetti sandwich. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: With Thousand Island. Yeah. Like the thousand Island dressing and sounds unique, but Yeah.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
That's good.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? And so if Anna had one last meal, what might be around her table?
Anna Rollins: I, I love Indian food. Um, so I would, um, non breaded again, I guess I really like non breaded.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, yeah.
Anna Rollins: Like, uh, I mean, butter chicken, I know that is boring, but I, I really like it. And, um, I'm gonna, I'm blanking on the name of it, but like the fried onion type thing.
Andrew Camp: Okay. Yeah. I don't, I'm blanking on the name. Yeah.
Anna Rollins: Yeah. So I would, I would've, Indian food.
Andrew Camp: No, it's a good choice. I, yes and yeah. All of it.
Anna Rollins: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Well, and I've [00:49:00] appreciated this conversation. I've appreciated your honesty, your vulnerability, um, your courage. Um, and so if people wanna learn more about your work or just. Follow you. Where can they find you?
Anna Rollins: Yeah. Um, well, uh, my memoir Famished is out on December 9th. It examines the rhyming scripts of evangelical purity culture and diet culture.
So you can order that anywhere you buy your books. Um, and then you can find me on Substack and Instagram at Anna J. Rollins, or@annajrollins.com.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. Yes. Um, yeah, please do by famished. It's, um, a really fascinating look. It's published by Eerdman's, um, available everywhere December 9th. Um, and so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others.
Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time.