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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Matt: Doc Pop, welcome to the WP Minute.
Doc: Thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be on.
Matt: I'm gonna play something
real quick, intro ing you.
Here we go.
Hey, my name's uh, Dr.
Popular.
I'm a uh, yo yo er, blogger, and uh,
crafster, living in San Francisco.
Um, wanted to show some of my crafts
because I know some of my stuff is
a little confusing to photograph.
Sixteen years ago, my friend, you have
outpaced me by five years, your YouTube
channel goes back sixteen years ago, that
was a clip of Doc Pop's Craft Catalog,
Cat a Vlog, I should say, two thousand
and seven, you've been in the game a
while, uh, and I'm happy to catch up to
see what you're up to these days, uh,
what made you just get, just jumping
back into the time machine sixteen
years ago on your YouTube channel.
Always a love for video, always a love
for producing this type of artwork.
How did it start?
Doc: Sharing stuff has always been
something I've been passionate about,
not just my work, like being able to
reach out to other artists and talk
to them about what they're doing.
So like, this all comes from zine culture.
Do you, do you know zines Matt?
Matt: I do.
I do.
Doc: So, uh, you know, I grew
up in a small town in Tennessee,
Lewisburg, Tennessee, hours out
to Nashville and in the nineties.
Grunge music has taken off and I've got
no way to line, you know, learn about
what's happening and stuff like that.
And I heard about this thing called zines.
And so you started kind of documenting
your local bands, documenting the music
you're making and the artists around
you going to, to Kinko's printing them
up, sending them out to, you know,
Olympia, Washington, and then, you know,
folks at Olympia send you a bunch back.
Right.
And that, that kind of
communication was what got me really
interested in this whole world.
And blogging was just, to me, it
was like an, Electronic version of
a zine and then video was just like,
okay, this is just the next thing.
So like all of this passion I have
for like social media really comes
back to just making stuff and sharing
it with people, being able to, you
know, reach out directly to someone
I admire and ask them a question.
And when you have like a zine or you
have a camera, it gives you that excuse.
It gives you that access.
You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
normally walk up to this guy and
just be like, I love your art.
What type of brush do
you use or something?
Right.
With what guitar are using or whatever,
you know, kind of lame question like that.
But you got that camera there and all
of a sudden there's that permission and
that kind of like ability to just have
this direct conversation with someone you
admire and be able to learn with them.
And then you're not going to hoard that.
Obviously your, your goal isn't to,
my goal isn't to get lots of views.
It's to get, you know, whoever needs to
see it, get them a chance to see it, you
know, make it as easy for them to see it.
Silence.
Matt: is and how you got this project
and why you're super passionate about it.
Um, but I have a question about content
creation and sort of your, Sort of view on
how it's evolved again going back 16 years
ago on your YouTube channel to where?
Social media is today where
short form content is today.
I'll frame it for you I'm not a fan of the
tick tocks in the reels in the stuff that
disappears in 24 hours I like Podcasting.
I like long form video.
I like creating the stuff that is much
more everlasting, deeper connection,
but it's not the stuff that people
are, at least that I'm told this is
the stuff that people are tuning into.
Like people are saying, Oh,
it's got to be tick tock.
It's got to be Instagram.
You got to do these short things.
What's your thoughts
on, on content creation?
Like what, what type of
content is important to you?
And what are you more, most
passionate about creating?
Doc: So as the type of social media
has changed throughout the years and
the way people use it has changed,
I have not really changed that much.
My interest has always been, I
just want to document this because
I think it's cool and I want to
show it in the best way I can.
Um, if your goal is to make a living
through social media, which is not,
not what I'm doing and, and man,
that sounds like a stressful gig.
Uh, but if your goal is that.
Then, you know, yeah, I think you have
to like follow like you, you do need
to, uh, if you're on Tik Tok, you need
to post like three times a week and
do one live stream a week or whatever.
Like there's these kind of formulas
that are tried and true, but if
that's not your goal is, you know,
making money exclusively from that,
I just say, do what's fun for you.
So if Tik Tok's not fun for you.
I don't recommend trying to get on it
because like you feel obligated to.
Um, for, for me, I've really
liked watching stuff on YouTube.
So I kind of grok YouTube and
that's where, that's where I
kind of live or my content lives
and I don't push myself to do.
You know, whatever the trend is,
uh, and man, those trends have
changed because I remember, uh, in
the early days, it was like, if you
were longer than three minutes, no
one's going to watch your video.
That's crazy long for the internet.
And, you know, I watched a four
hour documentary on YouTube.
About Eve online and all
the rules are changed.
Like all the videos that are getting
shown to me are at least an hour long now.
So I'm not trying to
adapt to that or whatever.
Whatever YouTube suddenly
decides is their new priority.
And they're going to
push things to make that.
And you know, I'm not getting
millions of views on all a few of
mine have probably not that craft
video from, from that's probably
comfortably sitting at like 15 views.
Oh, 4, 000.
Okay.
Uh, But, uh, you know, it's, it's, for
me, it's nice when things do get a lot
of views and it's a little bit like I
just make a lot of content and so I'm
buying a lot of lottery tickets and every
now and then one of those tickets will
scratch off and it'll do really well.
And that feels good.
But because there's no income associated
for me, it's just about making that
stuff and being able to open those doors
and have opportunities if, you know,
for, for business wise, Um, you know,
I, I focus a little bit more on this
interview might help, um, get people to
come visit my site and buy something or
might help get my foot in the door at a
job I'm looking at or something like that.
So that's, that's a little bit where
I'm going from and the, the, the numbers
that's, if, if that's a thing you want
to get into, you definitely need to
follow the rules and do all that stuff.
There's no way we're working around
it, but I just, you know, comfortably
decided I'm just going to make
stuff that makes me happy and try
to be as productive as possible.
And, uh, it's been, you
know, it's been fun.
That's why I haven't burned out.
I think over 16 years.
Matt: Half of your title is
professional yo yo er, the other half
is freelance WordPress content creator.
I think folks in the audience, uh,
know you for the 8 years at Torque?
Mag, I think roughly?
Um, something around,
was it 8 years roughly?
Doc: It was about, it was just
like one month, shy of 10 years.
Matt: 10 years.
Yep.
Uh, so a lot of folks know
you, know you from that.
What, what?
Uh, Did, did you find WordPress
and then you found Torque?
Or did you find Torque and then WordPress?
How did, how did your love and passion
for all things WordPress come about?
Doc: So I mentioned that I love
blogging, and so of course I ended
up on WordPress from Blogger.
I think I was, uh, first it was like
some MSN uh, Microsoft kind of blogging
platform that predates blogger, and
then there was Blogger, and then
WordPress had that really easy tool to.
To move your content off a blocker and,
and Google was really cool about, uh,
you know, delivering that in a friendly
way and not, not hold porting it.
And due to that, like, yeah.
Uh, but, but due to that, I was,
it was very easy to get onto
WordPress and my friend, Scott
Beal, who owns laughing squid.
com, he, uh, was a San
Franciscan at the time, very
interconnected with our art scene.
And he was just hooking up artists.
You know, if you were like doing events
in the city or doing stuff, Uh, whether
it was burning man related or, or, you
know, just local pranks or whatever, he
would hook you up with, with hosting.
So that's how I got on there.
And it wasn't like a
passion for WordPress.
It was definitely one of those things.
It's like a tool I use and I like it.
And there's no complaints.
If somebody asked what,
what should they use?
I'd be like, Oh, you
should definitely use this.
And, um, it was because of making
content, a friend of mine who works
at WP Engine saw the videos I was
making, knew that I, you know, wasn't,
I wasn't like a WordPress advocate,
but I loved using the platform.
And he was like, how would
you feel about doing this?
And that was a really fun gig, you
know, 10 years of interviewing people
about WordPress is really cool.
Um,
Matt: we all, Like, love it.
We all use it, but we know it's not
the best for just this one thing
that I think it's great for blogging,
but I'm sure there are some things
that can can improve the experience.
But what's happening these
days in the ethos of WordPress
is just a lot of frustration.
Like we got a lot of newbies
coming in, which is great.
Problem is, they're like, Ah, this is
not that good for building websites.
Then we have a lot of developers
who've I've been here for years going,
listen, we're trying to make it better.
Yet you have to, to, to bear with us.
How did that empathy evolve?
If, if at anything, if you can illustrate
that for us, for both camps, cause you
were here for, you know, uh, a while
representing, uh, one of the longest
standing WordPress hosting company brands
through torque, you probably heard from
both camps, end users, advanced users.
How did you, how did that evolve for you?
If, if at anything, you have a
different perspective for beginners
and more advanced folks these days.
Doc: It, it started off as a way that
this is just a tool I like, and if I
hired a developer, They might be very
concerned about the politics behind it.
But I was, you know, very
kind of away from that.
I was just a user who occasionally hired
someone every three years to, you know,
update my site or something like that.
And I never really dived into it
too much other than just being
like, man, this sure is, um, I
guess ostensible would be the word.
Like as a, uh, even someone who
does not do any coding at all.
Still, it's very easy to, I wish
there was a plugin for this.
Well, let me do a quick search
and there's three of them, right?
So that's the beautiful thing
that's always been around
when I started documenting it.
It definitely felt like in the
beginning I was filled with a
sense of just huge optimism.
And then, um, somewhere along the
line, I became, I guess, so close
to it that I actually heard about
the, the, the discourse, right.
You know, the quote unquote
discourse and like, you know,
dramas and stuff like that.
And that was kind of a bummer.
And it's hard for me now to
kind of think about what.
Perspective new users would have because
there's been that major change with with
Gutenberg, which I think is probably a
good term You know good change for users
um I can't help but to think about like,
you know, all the behind the scenes
stuff I guess when it comes down to it
if someone were to come to me now and be
like, what should I use for for blogging?
it's not quite as simple as it used to
be but not really because I have that
insider knowledge or because WordPress has
even changed that much You know, for some
people, Wix is just kind of maybe, uh,
a good, you know, all they want to do is
create something for like, um, you know,
a birthday party or something they're
doing for one weekend and then they're
going to get rid of it or whatever.
And that's where, that's where I actually
come kind of confused is when people these
days ask me, what, what should I be using?
What, you know, where should
I be hosting or whatever?
And I'm like, Oh, there's a whole,
whole first off, we're going to pick
out which CMS you want to be on and
how much changes you want to be.
Or if you just want something
kind of, uh, Ready to go.
Do you want a single landing page or what?
And I guess that's good to have that
problem where there's so many things.
I wouldn't avoid recommending WordPress
because of my time kind of in there.
Uh, but, but yeah, it is,
it is hard at this point.
Sometimes to figure out like, maybe
it's not perfect for everyone.
Um, it's, it's complex.
Matt: how important is open source
to you as a user of WordPress?
Doc: It's, it's very important for
me because of those, the, the plugins
that I was talking about, the ability,
ability to get themes for, for a lot of
folks, it's important just for costs, you
know, getting, uh, free themes or free
plugins is, is a huge priority for them.
Hosting is sometimes pretty expensive.
So anywhere where you can save is
nice, but, uh, as a believer in the
open web, it's very important for me.
I think, um, That's, that's a harder thing
to communicate maybe to someone who just
wants to create a website for a weekend,
but for me personally, I try my best to
support things that are open protocols
that can help improve other things, you
know, make the web better, not just,
not just kind of, uh, lock people in.
Okay.
Matt: We're going to talk about that, uh,
that Fediverse stuff, uh, in a moment.
Uh, I, I want to know how you, If at all,
and listen, I, I don't cause I don't know
how myself, but how do you relay that?
Do you try to relay that importance to
maybe not friends and family, but maybe
you have colleagues that are trying to
decide between WordPress and in, in Wix.
And, and do you try to, You know,
you should make the nod to open
source, even if it's a little bit
more difficult to get started with
WordPress, you should care about open
source, uh, you know, for the open web.
Do you try to make that case with the
average user or do you just, nah, I'm
not going to try to go down that rabbit
hole, they're still trying to figure out
how to, you know, design their website.
Yes.
Doc: we all know we should
eat healthier, right?
Like, no one needs to tell us, like,
this is a thing you should be doing.
You shouldn't be eating that junk food.
And it's maybe a better case to try
to say, this is better because I mean,
because everyone knows, like, uh, these
big Companies are going to get bigger
and eventually you'll kind of regret it.
But still, even myself, like
I'm, I'm not running Linux.
Uh, I'm, you know, I'm,
I'm on Chrome right now.
Chrome browser.
I, I know that I've kind of
given up some stuff and I try
to fight the battles that I can.
But I, I'm not going to try to make an
argument to someone explaining open source
to someone who, you know, is probably
never even going to be Contributing to it.
They're just going to be an end user.
Instead.
I'm just going to try to
sell them on those features.
I'm going to try to be like, this is
something that if, if this company
goes away overnight, it should
be pretty easy to find someone.
You might not be able to do it, but to
find someone who can help you get it
running somewhere else or port it over.
And you can't say that
about this other company.
That's, that's the way I think about it.
I don't go for, uh, open sources, you
know, the best thing to do morally or,
or anything like that, if, if they're
not a developer and they're not going
to be actually kind of going in under
the hood, I, I just try to make the
cases for the things that are awesome,
which is usually focusing on the free
plugins or the usually free plugins and,
um, the, the flexibility that you have.
And that safety, you know, like I said,
as someone who's been making content
for, I guess, uh, since zines, but
like, uh, making content on YouTube
for 16 years, if, if YouTube goes
away overnight, man, all this stuff's
kind of gone and it's a bummer.
So I'm, I'm definitely thinking at this
point, what's going to be the thing that
if this goes away, cause I've seen so many
things come and go, you know, and so I try
to kind of share that with people, like
this is a better longterm bet for you.
And some people don't, don't
think longterm, you know, they're
just trying to get this thing
up for, you know, right now.
And, uh, I don't try to win them
over with, you know, arguments about
open source or anything like that.
Yeah.
Matt: you know, I love WordPress for
the open source, uh, angle of it, right?
It's roots in open source, uh, one for
the end user as this is your thing.
You can move it around, you can
bring it to different web hosts.
You're not, you're not
locked into just one.
Um, so I love that.
I love too that it's a community of folks.
And even if the overall direction of
the open source project isn't there.
Led in a democratic way.
You still have, you know, a
voice and vote to do things.
Like I just had a little
feature added to WordPress 6.
6 as just a, Hey, I'm gonna raise my
hand and say, this should be added.
It was added.
And I got credit to, I was
like, this is pretty cool.
Um, so like, I like it for that.
And then I say the open web too.
But I'm not a like, you know, like you
said, like I used to run Linux, you
know, when I was younger and I had time
to like mess around and break things.
And okay, I got to fix my computer now.
I don't do that anymore.
Right?
I run Mac.
I use brave, but I run
Mac and I run an iPhone.
There's diehard open source people
who are using like the graphene phone.
They're running Linux.
They're not touching anything.
pixels or cookies ever
come near their computer.
Um, that's not me, but I love the
open web for, for the mere fact
that you, you, you can have choice.
When you don't like this, this
path anymore, you at least
have this other path, right?
And that you could go down
and it might not be as good.
It might not be as sexy or fast or have
all the crazy algorithms, but it's there,
it's opening and you have access to it.
And that's about as far as I go with,
you know, my understanding of, of the
open web and what's great about it.
Um, Does the open web
mean anything else to you?
Like, organizations, you
know, big corporations, you
know, controlling the web.
That's one thing.
Is there anything else about the open
web that, that really you're passionate
about or that you really like about it?
Doc: We, you mentioned
the big corporations.
It is interesting that, that sometimes
we go deeper and deeper into open
web stuff to the point where one
company maybe kind of dominates it.
And the, you know, the example that
comes up for me is, is Google and Gmail.
Uh, email is this perfect example of
like an open federated system where
anybody can communicate with anyone.
But if you talk to someone these
days, Google has gotten so good at
it that they're basically email,
like Gmail is basically email.
And if anybody these days try setting up
an email server, they, they've learned
the hard way that Google doesn't want
them communicating with their people.
Like I keep hearing from folks like that.
So that, that, that's the
interesting thing to me is, is.
When things go really well and they
seem to be going perfect and this
technology is catching on and we've
got like all this money coming in to
pay developers to make it even better
from, from these big corporations and
then after a certain while, you're
like, Oh wait, we're just in another
silo by accident, you know, and that's,
that's such a bummer when that happens.
Yeah.
Matt: You know, I don't know how
closely you follow the, the, the
podcasting space, like the, the
actual industry news of, of things.
Um, I follow it pretty closely.
There's a whole open source
movement called podcasting 2.
0.
It's like WordPress for the
RSS feed of podcasts, right?
They enhance the RSS feed, they make
it better, et cetera, et cetera.
And they're, you know, they're
always advocating for other
apps to adopt this technology.
Just like, uh, if WordPress was
advocating for another web host to.
You know, use WordPress
on their hosting platform.
And the big thing in podcasting
these days, because, you know,
Spotify was supposed to come in and
in their words, save podcasting.
But they were, they were just trying to
build a walled garden around acquiring
shows and having premium features,
but all in the Spotify app, they've
since given up that they given up those
reins in their most, um, figurehead
of podcasting, let's say Joe Rogan,
because it is the biggest show.
They just now went to open publishing.
He's back on all the airwaves since
the start of the, of the new year.
So it looks like they've sort of given up.
That, uh, which is good.
Like it's a good thing that
they've given up trying to reign
RSS feeds into their own platform.
But now YouTube is the one that everyone
is looking at as like the savior of
podcasting because people are going
there for search and discover it.
And don't you want that?
You know, Mrs.
Podcaster, don't you want that search
and discoverability for your show?
Cause no one else is giving it to you.
And everyone's going, yes.
And now look at the ad revenue is
going up and the viewership is going
up and you must have a YouTube channel.
If you want a successful
podcast, it's like, Whoa, Whoa.
It's all going to, what have
we not learned our lesson 18
times over with this stuff.
It's just going to live on YouTube.
And what has Google shown us time and
time again, they keep getting rid of
things, including their own podcast app.
Which they just end of life on all Android
devices as of last month It's just like
what why are we saying these things?
These corporations are just for one thing.
It's for profit.
It's for revenue It's for their ad
network, and it's never the creator And
I'm sure from your YouTube experience if
you have ad sense on your your channel
mine has been like cut by more than 60
percent in terms of You Ad revenue coming
in over the last four or five years.
It just keeps getting less and
less and we keep losing out
It's a frustrating experience.
I don't have a direct question
there, but just more framing these
frustrations of giving all your content
to one Silo, it's very difficult
Doc: You, um, I just want to mention you,
you, you stumbled upon one of my favorite
things in the world, which is RSS.
Uh, there have been several open protocols
on the web that I've benefited from as
a, as a web user, but I never really was
aware of the idea of an open protocol
until RSS, maybe because it sounded
kind of complex, but this ability to
not have to go and check someone's site
every day, or, you know, someone posts
once a year, right back in 2007 or
2008, you don't have to like remember
sites and see if they've updated.
So the ability to just kind
of like set up this RSS feed,
which Google had an amazing.
Uh, feed reader called Google Reader.
And so all you had to do is just go
to the site, grab the RSS, put it in,
and then you just check Google reader
every day, which was, uh, you, you know,
you could use any other RSS reader.
That's the one that we use.
And that was to me, the, the beginning
of this walls coming down, you know,
I thought in 2008, we were going to
be, uh, I thought Facebook's doomed.
Um, I didn't mean to have to go
to Facebook because back then
you could actually get an RSS
of someone's Facebook page.
So even Facebook.
You could just scrape their
page and, you know, oh my God,
podcasts are powered by RSS.
Everybody's using RSS and
they don't even know it.
Right.
Of course, there's other open protocols
like HTML or IMAP or, you know, whatever.
There's other ones that we all use,
but it wasn't really until RSS that
I realized that if someone builds
a standard and we get around the
standard, this magical stuff can happen.
But then, uh, you know, we talked about
Gmail kind of becoming the big thing.
And then, and then now it's basically
a silo when Google reader was killed
for Google plus, which was also killed
and replaced with something else.
Who knows?
Right.
But when Google reader was killed, all
of a sudden RSS was killed too, because
everyone, you could have used anything
and there was lots of great alternatives.
There still are, I use
them, but for the most part.
When that, when that big easy tool
went away, everyone just gave up on it.
And we, you know, kind of built up
silos again and it's happening again.
It's, it's this cycle.
I hate it, Matt.
I hate this cycle and this optimism.
And then it's like, somehow getting
tricked into supporting the wrong thing.
You're like, Oh, they're
doing the right thing.
You're making this better.
They're making, Oh my God.
They, they dominate the industry and
now nobody can do anything anymore.
And I've made a terrible mistake.
Matt: Yeah.
Doc: Silence.
Matt: out over the like button, right?
So let's just say like the like button
took over like all of social media,
it's likes, it's hearts, it's whatever.
It's all these things that just
drive this like a vanity engagement.
But if RSS had one as just like
maybe your email address or your
phone number represented a way to
get with you, get connected to you.
If everyone kind of knew what RSS was
and we all had Our own RSS address, let's
say, uh, that had all of our content on
it, man, what a, what a world that would
be because you would have, you would
have that direct one to one relationship
with, I have a thousand subscribers
that go to my RSS feed every, every
month or every day, whatever it is,
and it's all of your content, photos,
blog, podcast, video, whatever, um,
man, what a world that would be, and
these, these And these corporations,
Google, Facebook, all of them, they
don't want it because that is open
distribution that anyone can connect with.
Any app can connect to it.
And guess what they can't insert?
Is the ad network, is the algo to,
you know, to, to scoop this stuff up.
Anyway, I don't want to get on
too much of a, of a soapbox about
RSS cause I do love it as well.
Something similar to that though,
let's get into the Fediverse project
that you're working on with wordpress.
com, wordpress.
com slash Fediverse.
How did this project come about?
Is this something that you pitched to
WordPress as your, with your freelance
WordPress content creator had on
and they said yes or vice versa?
How did it all come about?
Doc: This was a beautiful thing
that happened on social media.
And there's been so many lucky,
wonderful things that have happened
where you use social media for a long
time, as long as you put something
out there and you get this response.
Uh, when, when I was laid off from Torque,
uh, about four months ago, I put out a
message saying if I could do anything
right now, I would love to somehow help
spread the word about the Fediverse.
I, and I think that was like one of
two things I said, I'd either like
to interview artists or I'd like to
spread the word about the Fediverse
and there's no money in the Fediverse.
It's like, it's like saying
Matt: I thought you were going to say
there's no money in interviewing artists.
Doc: Yeah, actually there's
nobody out there at all.
But, uh, It would be like if,
if in 2009, I was like, I want
to help promote RSS, right?
There's nobody paying, right?
And so, uh, saying I want to support
the Fediverse is like, well, you
know, you can, but you're probably
not going to get paid for it.
And, um, just as some luck, I think some,
some right people saw it and some good,
you know, coincidence happens where.
I guess, wordpress.
com or an automatic.
We're looking at Fediverse stuff.
They have Mattias Buferli on staff,
who's building the WordPress, uh, to
activity pub plugin, and so they're,
they're interested in it and they're
always kind of dabbling with it.
And I guess they, they saw that, or
it was shown to them and they reached
out to me and we had this conversation
and, uh, the Fediverse files is the end
result, which is, um, currently a five.
Episode series there might be another
series, you know, uh, series two might
come but series one is in the can And
it is meant to explain the Fediverse in
very simplistic terms So it's not like
a deep dive into Fediverse politics at
all The first episode is what is the
Fediverse and talking about that Simple
analogies to help people understand it
and to get them to share my enthusiasm and
to hopefully get them started on there.
The second one's an interview with
the co creator of activity pub.
Um, we've got, you know, lots
of other cool interviews.
So it's been a dream job for me and
it definitely a once in a lifetime
opportunity where you're like, there is
a thing I'm extremely passionate about.
Oh, you're going to give me money
to like write songs and draw
animations about this thing.
And it's, it's, I couldn't
be any more prouder.
I'm definitely going to be
showing this to my grandkids.
Silence.
Matt: it came out.
It's fantastic.
I want to talk about the production
of it, uh, in a moment, but in terms
of explaining the Fediverse project.
Number one, you're doing a great job, like
breaking it down, like super simplistic.
Uh, there are things that I, I learned
from it that, you know, I'm not an
expert in the Fediverse by any stretch
of the imagination again, really only
got into it a few years ago before
the whole, you know, sort of Twitter
fiasco, um, Twitter to X fiasco,
I was there for the podcasting 2.
0 stuff.
Because largely that's where they, they
lived and communicated with, um, but
doing a fantastic job, like breaking
it down, making people understand it.
Uh, so I applaud you on that.
Here's the thing.
It's like what you said earlier
is things I've said before is
like, we should all eat healthier.
We should all drink less.
We want to lose weight,
stop eating the pizza.
And I felt like when the whole
like, Oh, you know, we don't
want to be on Twitter anymore.
What are the alternatives?
And people are saying Macedon, go
to the Metaverse, all this stuff.
And people got there and like, okay.
Wait a minute.
Why doesn't it look as good as Twitter?
You know, where are all my,
where are all my friends?
Why doesn't it do these things?
And then people go, okay, I guess
I gotta go back to Twitter now.
You know, and you're just like, Hey, you
should have stayed like, this is here.
This is the open web.
This is what it looks like.
It's never going to be as polished in
that, that, uh, uh, steroid injection of
like, uh, you know, news and, and breaking
news and stream and the algorithm.
It just, it's just not there because.
People aren't building for it.
And these other commercial platforms
are just a long way of getting to
what's your thoughts on like, Hey,
here's the open, here's the open web
slash social platform versus here's the
Twitter or the Facebooks of the world.
Like, how do you make that distinction
when people ask you where they should
spend their time doing social, if you can.
Doc: I mean, this is very similar
to, if someone asked me where,
what type of website should I have?
Right.
Uh, there's different things that
might be different fits for them.
Exactly what a teenager is looking
for and Mastodon isn't right.
Like I'm not going to try
to force them onto it.
Um, I really like Mastodon and I've
been very surprised at how many folks
just don't find it very sticky or have
some issues with it, like, um, creating
Mastodon, Mastodon account for some
people, it's a big barrier to pick a.
A server and, you know, uh, create,
create your, your identity on that
versus just going to mastodon.
com, right?
So a lot of us are just
used to go to twitter.
com if you want to use
Twitter and go to whatever.
I didn't have too hard of that.
Like it was very similar to, you know,
if someone said, uh, I want to use email.
Okay.
First thing you got to do is find an email
server and then you create your name.
It wasn't, it wasn't that hard for me.
I, I don't get too offended
if, if it's not for everyone.
Like I, at first I was like,
man, what's wrong with you?
Don't you care about this?
Like this is, you said, you said
you're leaving this other platform
for these reasons and this fixes it.
And I don't do that anymore.
At my hope, um, I'm just running on
optimism and my hope is that in the
long run, uh, and by long run, I'm just
talking about like five to six years.
That this stuff won't be complicated
to people, um, in the same way that
people subscribe to a podcast and
they don't think about the word RSS,
which we should be taking shots every
time we take, we said the word RSS
in this episode, but in the same way
that like, you know, RSS sounds scary.
RSS readers sounds scary.
Podcast, nobody, nobody
thinks twice about podcast.
Nobody thinks about like, how
do I send an email to someone?
Oh, I have to write their
name and then their server.
They're like, no, that's
not weird for anyone.
And I'm hoping that the Fediverse is
going to be this thing that just catches
on in a way that's super natural.
When, when Twitter came around in 2007.
understood it.
Even though Facebook was around, I was
trying to get people to sign on to Twitter
and they just were like, why I don't
understand the appeal of this in any way,
and you were just constantly explaining
how things worked and how usernames
work and nobody does that anymore.
Like it's just, it's just natural.
I think that, uh, that activity
pub is going to be like the RSS.
It's going to be the thing
that we don't really talk about
that powers the Fediverse.
And people aren't going to need
constant explanations like they do now.
And I hope that because of all this
stuff, the things that are built around
there will be so enticing and so good
that the healthy meal will be so good.
They'll just want to eat it
because it's delicious and not
because of how it was made.
And, and they're not even going
to have to think about it.
You know how it was made.
It just is, this is so much
better than, you know, the garbage
they're selling down the street.
Um,
Matt: that injection shot to
connect WordPress and activity
pub to the, to the Fediverse.
And I'll just, you know, frame it
with, with the activity pub plugin.
And you show this as an
example, um, in your video.
So if you have the activity pub plugin
running on your WordPress website.
Which I do on the WP Minute, uh, and
you make a post, number one, just from
like, The typical one on one of, of a
daily marketer, it just goes, just goes
out there like I don't have to do it.
I don't have to send it to, to
the, to the Fediverse or go to my
master account and punch it in.
Um, you know, like a lot of people have
to do with Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook.
I know there's plugins out there
that will automatically post it, but
it just lives, uh, in, uh, in the,
in the Fediverse once I publish it.
And two, Once it's out there, let's say
if I'm on my Macedon account, um, in my
app, I should say on my phone and I'm
scrolling through and I leave a comment
on that link, it automatically post
to the comment section of that post.
Let's say that is fantastic.
I mean, imagine having And
the conversations on Twitter
about your post and then they
just all show up on your post.
Like that alone should make
people look at that and go, wow,
engagement, amazing, off the charts.
Um, and going back to that connection
to Tumblr, like Tumblr being a social
network, I would have loved to seen, and
maybe it'll still happen eventually, but
I would have loved to seen that like core
connection, WordPress, Fediverse, social
network, and we're all kind of living
in this like higher engagement world.
But that's just like.
Scratching the surface of what
this ActivityPub plugin can do.
Um, any other cool features of the
ActivityPub plugin that you're,
that you're liking and, and seeing,
um, through doing this series?
Doc: Well, okay, this, this is
getting a little, um, optimistic.
I don't know.
I think we think of the Fediverse
as a Twitter alternative, uh, or
at the very least a social Right.
A form of, of social media that,
um, it's as if I was on one social
media platform and I could comment on
another social media platform without
creating an account there, right?
That's how we think of it.
I think that the Fediverse is going
to be something far bigger and it's
not going to be just social media.
It's going to be, um, The
replacement for, uh, podcasting 2.
0 could be powered by ActivityPub.
And the way that that would work
is I have, uh, uh, ActivityPub
reader or a Fediverse.
You know, I have an
account on the Fediverse.
And through there, I could
be like, I'm going to start
following Matt's podcast on here.
And so like, that's that one
way RSS connection, right?
That podcast connection, right?
And there might be whole podcast
players built around this.
Um, and once I like something that
podcast gets an actual, like in the
Fediverse, or if I leave a comment,
it actually goes there, right?
So instead of just that one way
broadcasting, we might have this
system of like two way interactions.
And I'm still thinking based on kind of.
Current things that we're doing
and how the Fediverse could
kind of integrate with it.
But I think there's almost like a new
type of web that that could be enabled.
Um, the missing ingredients might be
things like portability for your username.
Like right now you're really kind
of tied to if you're on Macedon, you
can one move servers, whatever that
could break things a little bit.
Um, but eventually I think
we'll have some sort of.
Fediverse identity and from there
be able to connect to the things.
And if we move around from servers,
people don't even have to know.
They just always kind of
connect to that identity.
And, um, you know, if you change
your podcasting company, maybe like,
I don't know, like, I think there's
a lot of interesting two way stuff
that could happen that we don't
even know is missing right now.
And that's exciting.
Um, and you, you mentioned, you mentioned
press and, or will you mention blogs
and the ability to have those comments,
you know, When I think about the next
use case, I'm hoping that, you know,
Wired and Verge and TechCrunch all have
that Fediverse integration and not just
like, we have a mastodon account, let's
copy paste what we wrote on Twitter
and put it in there, but actually, when
their blog post goes up, it also gets
federated, becomes a first class system,
first class user, basically, like it's,
it's a post that hasn't been updated.
Shared to the FedEverse,
it lives on the FedEverse.
And from there, people can like
subscribe to, you know, news,
newspapers and stuff, write comments,
and they go into the comment section.
And I I'm feeling pretty optimistic
about that because I know that
the publishers more than anyone
else have been burned by Facebook.
They've been burned by Twitter.
They've been, you know, they're the ones
who are like, we're tired of building
our audiences for some other platform.
And then all of a sudden they, they
shut off the algorithm or something.
And if they switch to
FedEverse integration.
And start kind of really leaning on,
you know, instead of focusing on posting
on, on these other things, we're just
going to post this on our site and it
gets federated and it's a first class
citizen of the Fediverse, then maybe
users will start kind of coming in.
That's maybe the first wave of
users that come in other than just
looking for Twitter alternatives.
Matt: Yeah.
Um, I know in podcasting 2.
0, this will get a little bit technical,
but the, there's a lot of features
that they're, that they're exploring,
you know, powered by activity pub and
especially like comments and, um, you
know, being able to like podcast, like,
cause this doesn't exist right now.
Like, especially.
You know, blogging is,
is fragmented, right?
There's, I mean, you
just have search, right?
You have Google, right?
And other search engines, but there's
no, you know, I don't know if any,
you're not going to a place to go,
Oh, I want to just look at these blog
categories and see all the metadata there.
Um, but they're trying to
do that with podcasting 2.
0, you know, thanks to, uh, things like
activity pub, because that data with air
quotes met, maybe With air quotes can be
shared throughout all app experiences.
So if you like my podcast and let's
say pocket casts, it might show
up in overcast that you liked it.
And that sort of like that data
is every can be everywhere.
If these other apps decide to like pull
in the likes, pull in the comments.
And it's just like a one stop shop where
by enabling having these features live on.
Or through activity pub, other apps
can build upon that experience and
then build the experiences that
they want for their audiences.
You don't want to see
comments in this podcast app.
No problem.
They, they don't use
comments in this podcast.
You'll never see it, but in these other
three podcast apps, comments are there.
You can engage with them.
And I really liked that.
Like, I think that's an amazing thing.
Let's talk about the production of the
show of the show, of the series that
you're, that you're building fantastic.
Uh, and I, you know, I had no
doubts that it, that it wouldn't be.
Um, you're producing the whole
thing, working with a team,
like a one, one camera setup.
Uh, I don't think it is, but judging
by what I've seen, but what's the
production look like behind the scenes?
How does it all come together?
Do you work with anybody else?
How much work you do and let, let us know.
Doc: So the interviews are
mostly shot, um, the same way
you and I are chatting right now.
I even bought a new camera to kind
of make it look a little nicer,
but they're shot in my office
in San Francisco, just a shared.
And, um, for the bulk of the non
interview stuff, like the intros and
that first episode and the, and the
fifth episode, um, those are shot in
automatics office on mission street
in San Francisco, which is one of the
coolest buildings in the entire city.
And no one knows about it.
It's a real gym.
And I was super excited because I, I
been in there before they moved in there.
And when I found out they
were there, I was like, can,
can we shoot the whole thing?
Yeah.
And so, uh, we had one day to shoot in
automatic office and, um, I hired a camera
guy to kind of help just because it was,
if, if, if I had like, if I had infinite
days, I'd just do it all by myself.
But I was like, let's just, we, you know,
we've got five episodes, we've got six
hours, so I hired a friend to kind of come
and shoot and it was for the most part,
one camera, uh, and I wrote the script
myself and, you know, it was Uh, I'm
the on screen guy for better, for better
or worse, that's, that's who you get.
Um, but, uh, yeah, I just got to,
Matt: And the camera guy
throws paper at you, right?
You're he's throwing the paper at,
or are you throwing it at yourself?
Like off
Doc: No, the camera guy was doing, yeah.
So he's, he's a stunt double as well.
Uh, and, and helped
with folly, I guess too.
Um, but yeah, it, the, the first episode
is largely me in the office, um, kind
of talking at the camera and the next
episode, which you haven't seen yet
is an interview with Um, Evan Pedromo,
who's the co creator of ActivityPub.
And I try to stay away from like, you
know, history and stuff like that.
I just wanted to kind of get him talking
about the things that someone who's just
learning about it could really enjoy.
Like still keep this instead of right.
Instead of like aiming towards
Fediverse users, uh, let's try to get
people to understand the potential
of what this could really be.
And, um, As also part of the production,
I got to write songs for the episodes,
uh, which is, you know, long interest of
mine is writing music and anytime I get a
chance to write a stupid jingle, you know,
I've wrote a jingle for Activity Pub.
I wrote a jingle for Mastodon.
Well, uh, uh, yeah.
And, and so it's just, it was just a
chance, everything I said, um, when
I was writing the script, I was like,
I, I think, I think there's a song.
Potential here.
And they were like, go for it.
I was like, really?
Every, every weird, stupid idea I had.
Um, and you know, uh, Matt, as a, as
a contractor who had been working full
time for a company for 10 years as a
contractor, I'm like, wow, when you're
a contractor, you're like the expert.
So if you just say something, they're
like, Oh, this must be a really good idea.
Where like, if you're like, if you're
like full time with the company and
stuff, you're like, Oh, I think we
should, you know, do, do a song in here.
Well, let's, let's, let's play it by
this audience and see how it works.
And, you know, see
Matt: Let's talk to legal.
Let's get the marketing team involved.
Oh God.
Doc: this is great.
This was, this is just
like any stupid idea.
I wish, I wish, honestly, I have more
dumb ideas because I would have loved
to have seen where, where the limit was.
Like, uh, you know, like, uh,
no, doc, you shouldn't parachute
off of the tower for this.
I think we're, I think we got the point.
I think we, we conveyed that.
Yeah.
They were, they were
super supportive of this.
Okay.
Matt: Can't wait to see the next episode.
I hope we're, if anyone from
Automatic is listening, I, you know.
Bring Doc on to continue to do
more content, uh, for wordpress.
com, uh, beyond the Fediverse, uh, uh, if,
if that's possible, uh, but if you're also
looking to hire somebody to jump off of a
tower with a parachute with your WordPress
logo on it, uh, he's for hire at docpop.
org, uh, check him out, uh, as a
freelance WordPress content creator.
Um, anything else, anywhere else folks can
go to say thanks to, to visit you online?
Macedon, Twitter, any other,
uh, corporate social networks
that folks can find you on.
Doc: Absolutely.
I'm still on a lot of the corporate social
networks and the way to find me is docpop.
org slash about.
I think that's, uh, I think that's
the one and that's where you can find
my little link tree to everything.
And this might be how
we do it in the future.
Instead of being like, here's my username,
we just might be like, here's a section
of my site where everything's listed
and that's what I'm trying right now.
So you can find my GitHub,
you can find everything all
from that, uh, from that page.