Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. I'm Pete Wright, and today we're challenging stereotypes and taking on a question you might be asking if you are on the hunt for representation: Do you need an asshole lawyer?
We're continuing our summer of fun here, with Seth away, and I have the perfect guest to help answer the question of aggression in the courtroom, Geneviève Torres, attorney at NLG Divorce and Family Law. Geneviève, welcome to the Toaster.
Geneviève Torres:
Thank you for having me.
Pete Wright:
So excited to have you here. This is the first time we've even gotten to meet and it's just wonderful to have you here and on the show and to hear, because you seem like such a genteel person. You have this calming energy about you, and I have no idea, when we started talking about what topics we wanted to talk about on the show, that you picked, oh, we definitely need to talk about the asshole lawyer conversation. How did that even come about? So we're going to start with you defining terms for me.
Geneviève Torres:
You don't have to be an asshole to be aggressive. So an aggressive attorney is effective, but an aggressive asshole attorney is usually not. And it's just because it distracts. What an asshole attorney does is kind of distracts everyone from what really the issues are. So you don't need an aggressive attorney, and I just think it depends what you're looking for.
So in the divorce situation, a lot of people are looking for that because they're hurt. So they're hurt and the other person hurt them, so they're looking for somebody that, I'm going to give it back. They want somebody to stand up for them. They want to get under the other person's skin. They're looking for somebody that will come in and fight for them, right or wrong. That's what they're looking for, an aggressive attorney.
And there's nothing wrong with being an aggressive attorney. I mean, it's effective in some sort of way, but you just don't have to be an asshole. So that that's very different. You could be an aggressive asshole attorney and you're not going to go anywhere.
And people know who they are. And this is one of the first questions sometime, that somebody comes in with papers and they say, "Well, I got served," and I think one of the first questions I'll ask ask is, "Who's on the other side?" And it makes a difference. So I can have the same case, same set of facts, and depending who's on the other side, it will go two different, very different way.
And I know sometimes, I had a client recently that came in and said, "Oh, we have an agreement where it's going to be uncontested, it's going to be easy." I said, "Who's on the other side?" And then they told me the attorney's name and I was trying to keep it together. I was like, it was like, "I really hope it goes the way you think it's going to go, but I'm just going to warn you that there's a chance that it it just might derail a little bit from..." And it did. So it depends. It makes a difference.
Pete Wright:
This gets to the next question, I think, though, which is about how you define the difference between maybe three terms, which is aggressive versus assertive versus effective. It seems like what you're describing is an attorney that is aggressive for the sake of being aggressive, and not to be necessarily effective. When you could make a divorce go easily and you choose not to by dint of personality, that seems to be a challenge.
Geneviève Torres:
An aggressive attorney, usually you just want, it's somebody that will... Like I said earlier, I think it's just going to, you want somebody to bark for you, right? I know that's not the right term, but just make some noise just because you're angry, and then... Because we're in a divorce. Most of my cases are divorces, and we get these, our clients are usually at divorce. And I like to say, when you're a criminal attorney, your client always going to behave their best, and then it's almost easier sometimes to do criminal law because they behave really well during the litigation.
And then you take normal folks and then you put them in a situation of a divorce or a custody battle or domestic violence and things like that, and then they're scared to lose their children, they're scared to lose their finances. And so you get normal folks at their worst all the time, worse behavior, and it's because they're not themselves, they're just in crisis.
So when they're looking for an aggressive attorney, I think a lot of time is they're looking for somebody that's going to fight for them. And I do think a good attorney is a balance of both. And when you say what's an effective attorney? An effective attorney just usually will look at the facts, will look at the merit of the case, at the legal arguments, and then it's just in preparation. I think an effective attorney is always super well-prepared.
And then, I think that's what makes an attorney great, is how much preparation and how much going into a hearing or a trial and things like that. People that, you have an attorney all the time that just wings it. And that's just, whatever they're... I just think that preparation makes a good attorney great.
Pete Wright:
I love how you talk about people, when they're hurt, they just want an attorney that barks for them, right? And the misconceptions of an aggressive lawyer can come across as a lawyer that's mean or toxic in the courtroom, for example. But I am curious, on the other side of that, when your client comes to you and says, "Hey, I want you to bark. I need you as my attorney to essentially be the aggressive sort of asshole attorney that my emotional core needs you to be right now because I'm hurt." How do you adapt to that when you are tasked with that? Is that something that you...
Geneviève Torres:
Yeah, I do both.
Pete Wright:
You do? Yeah?
Geneviève Torres:
Maybe. I can do both. It's just not being a pushover. It's really standing for your client's best interest and the children's best interest. So usually when somebody calls, somebody asks me, "Hey, yeah, I need you to be a bulldog," right? "I need you..." Then I do both. I do think that when you are calm, and then when you don't get your emotion into your client's cases...
What I see a lot is attorneys sometimes take it very personal. They'll take almost the client case, instead of fact, as it's happening to them, or they take very personal, they get very emotionally involved. And this is where sometimes the attorneys just become complete assholes, because it's almost like...
Pete Wright:
Because they're emotional.
Geneviève Torres:
They feel like it's happening to them. It's their emotion. It's like, you need to do detach yourself. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but you're there to help and try to resolve and try to get a positive outcome for your client that's going through a very difficult time and situation. So if you put your own emotion into it, I mean, this is how things derail sometime, and then...
But how do you adapt? I mean, often enough my client, I will tell him, I could be aggressive but also I don't play this games. I'm not going to be an asshole. I'm not going to bend a rule or not follow. And I've had a situation in the hallway at a courthouse where the attorney yell at me, for example, like curse, yell, call me name and it's not professional. And it's not professional and it's also when, this is an example of an attorney getting too emotionally involved in the case.
And I just walk away from it. There's no reason. And I think sometimes if you stay calmer and you just stay calm... I think my son is sitting in the back. If you just stay calm, it almost gives a bigger rise on the other side than if you don't get into it. But I just, I don't play the asshole game. I could be assertive, aggressive, but I don't need to go where you just, it becomes unprofessional.
And then, we know the attorneys. I mean, we all know each other, like I said earlier. And I don't think, in the courtroom, the judge knows too. They know. It doesn't help, and being an asshole in court usually backfires anyway.
Pete Wright:
Let me ask you a question. This one one you got me thinking about. I didn't expect to go down this road, but you said when attorneys start feeling like it's happening to them, then the emotion gets involved, that's when things can get difficult. I'm curious though, you are a family law attorney and you're a professional at this, but you're also a human being. Do you find you have any triggers that you have to constantly be aware of that make you emotional? What does that look like?
Geneviève Torres:
Yeah, anything related to when the parents use the kids as pawns, you know? They use the kids to get what they want. They're not thinking about the kids, they're thinking about what they want because they're hurt right now, and they're denying time sharing for no reason. They're calling, they're talking about data parent in negative way. They're angry at them, but it's still through that. They didn't ask for that. The kids did not ask for the divorce, right? So that's not what they want, and they're going through a lot, and to add, to see your parents fight in front of you to, call each other their name and things like that is just, this is unnecessary. And then it just adds so much anxiety, and those children is always going through a difficult situation. So anytime that children are overly involved, overly, I just think it's so sad, and it does get me.
And domestic violence. We do domestic violence too and that that's hard. So to see sometime, like I've had videos, home videos and things like that, that people catch on their personal camera, and you see the domestic violence that happen, or the children in those situations screaming and crying and getting hurt, and it's really hard to watch. So that definitely gets me.
And then you try. I mean, you try not to get emotionally involved sometimes, and it happens. I mean, it happens to me too sometimes, and I get... If I know... You never know because it's never there, but sometimes it's always decided to start. You only hear what my client says. But when you have these videos, sometime when you have these evidence, it's hard not to also, it's nothing personal, but I'm just saying it's hard not to get emotionally involved, and it's draining.
I mean, you go home at night, and all day long you've dealt with people that unhappy or fighting or are being mean to each other and the kids are sad. So it's hard sometimes to go home and just unwind and leave all that at the office. And you do your best do that because you don't want to affect your personal life, but then it doesn't stop when you go home. I mean, most of my clients have my cell phone, so they'll text me, call me, on weekends, nights, with problems or emergencies, or the police is here, or what do I do? And then, domestic violence, I've had people call me in the middle of domestic violence incident. Instead of calling 911, they're calling my cell phone. I was like, "Call 911." I mean, I'm just saying, but that's difficult sometimes.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, I hear it. I'm curious if that, when we talk about emotion gets the better of you and it triggers that sort of asshole attorney kind of emotional response. Are there potential ethical issues that you need to watch out for, for aggressive, overly aggressive lawyering? Anything the Bar would get upset about?
Geneviève Torres:
Yes. So there's actually a board or committee or something where you could report other attorneys' behavior like that. And colleagues' behavior. And I've been involved in a couple, not that I reported anybody, but I've been called as a witness, for example. Some attorney reported the attorney saying that their conduct was unprofessional and I happened to be a witness to some of it, so I got brought in, and then the attorney gets sanctions. I mean, they'll get sanctioned as far as, you have to do anger management classes. So they'll get sanctioned in that way. They have to, they'll get reprimanded, I'll say, not sanctioned. Maybe reprimanded.
But you could report anonymously other attorneys conduct and behavior when you think it's unethical and unprofessional, and yes, they'll investigate. There's a board that will investigate. And like I said, I was called a couple times as a witness for that. And my understanding, and I did get a copy of the report, and the attorney was the reprimanded and then they had some things he had to do.
Pete Wright:
You mentioned that when the opposing counsel is the aggressive one, and you're telling the story about, you find out who the opposing counsel is and you're like, "This is not going to be easy." I'm curious what you do in that case. If I'm your client and you come back to me and say, "The opposing counsel is known, has a reputation for this," what do you tell me to make me feel comfortable that you still can get something done? That we still can work toward a resolution, when my interest is just getting to the other side of it? Because I can imagine, I might feel like this is the unstoppable force, like the other attorney is just going to stonewall everything just for the sake of being a jerk about it.
Geneviève Torres:
Well, most of the time I'll have experience with attorney. I've been doing it for probably, I think, 15 years now. So a lot of the attorney I've had multiple times over the years in cases. So when I say that, it's because I personally experienced it, and I know how to deal with an attorney and I know... But ultimately, you are going to get divorced, or whatever your case is, you're going to get divorced, you're going to be an end to it. The law is the law. The facts are the facts. So you could be as big of an asshole as you want on the other side. The outcome is... Sometimes the outcome is not going to make much of a difference on the outcome, right? So it's just going to prolong the process.
And that's what's frustrating, is sometimes that's something that should be resolved in two to three months, it might take nine, 10, 11 months just because there's either delay, or over-lawyering, like being over litigious, you're just filing all these motions for no reason. So what's frustrating is, and I can't control that sometime, is it could cause a delay, you can litigate longer, and it costs more money. And it's frustrating sometimes for the client because it's like, well this should be so easy, so cut and dry, but it's not. And then they're ending more money in attorney's fees, and well, "Can I get my money back?" You can't. Unless they're doing something that's frivolous, they have the right to have their day in court, even though you think it should have been done now.
Pete Wright:
And your job is to respond.
Geneviève Torres:
Yeah. Ultimately we'll get it done. Because of who it is on the other side, sometime it let get a little longer, costs a little bit more money, but I can't control that.
Pete Wright:
I'm curious about lawyering style, when it comes to developing your personality as a lawyer. Where does that come from?
Geneviève Torres:
A lot of it is who you are, too. So I always feel that I get more out of the other side, or more information, or I get more effective if I'm nicer. For example, say we have a deposition, in the situation of a deposition, and this is when you put somebody under oath, you ask a bunch of questions that you need for your case to prepare for trial. So, I usually like to have a conversation with the person, and I feel like I get more information when you're nicer to the person, even though I'm not trying to be your friend, but I just feel like you get more with honey, you'll say, than vinegar.
So I apply that a lot when I litigate and sometime when I have to deal with the other person in the deposition setting, or even sometime in the hearing. I just feel that when you show respect and when you're nicer, you'll get more. If I stop, if I start being nasty, or more direct, or my tone is a little bit more, gosh, I don't want to say bitchy, but it's more like...
Pete Wright:
Whatever words work.
Geneviève Torres:
Cold, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Geneviève Torres:
The person will shut down on the other side. So they will feel attacked, first of all. They'll be defensive, and then a response I'm looking for now is going to become a yes or no response, versus the person would've elaborated, give me more information. And sometimes when they give you more information, they have a conversation, they give you information that you didn't know, or you could use, or didn't realize. They just share. People likes to share. So when you're having conversation they're more likely and they just give me more information than they could use.
So I approach a lot of situation like that in that way. But I mean, if the person doesn't react well or is an asshole and I have deposed plenty of opposing party that are complete asshole from the beginning. Just, I match your style, right? I'll just go there. But I don't necessarily think you need that. But I just think a balance of both, it just makes a better attorney.
And I'll share, I hired... So I went through a divorce last year, and before I even joined NLG, I hired Seth for my own divorce.
Pete Wright:
Really?
Geneviève Torres:
I did.
Pete Wright:
I did not know that. That's fantastic.
Geneviève Torres:
Yeah. So I've known Seth for as long as I've been practicing. So three cases, use him as a mediator, just so. But I need it in my situation, and I wanted somebody like Seth. So he is my top, I had in my mind three attorneys on my list of who I'm going to call if I need to call somebody, and Seth, the first one I called, and I explained what was going on, and then I hired him because I needed his style.
He gets a rise out of the other side by just, he's so calm. But then he could switch it to... He's so calm in the position setting, and then it gets the other person to show his true colors. He's very good at the way he questioned somebody to make him, like I said, make them show their true colors, but he thinks so calm.
In the same way, in the courtroom, then he'll flip the switch and he could be super aggressive if he needs to, but not an asshole aggressive, just a good balance of both. But then again, he could switch in settlement mode, and when we start negotiating an agreement, looking really what's best for me and for my future, versus we're out to get him, right? So he's a really good balance of all of that, and that's why I hired him when I went through my own divorce.
Pete Wright:
Fascinating. I mean, just in terms of hearing you talk about his style sort of demonstrates the answer to that question. I'm always fascinated, especially because your job is so performative, right? There's, the law is the law is the law. I get that, but at some point you might find yourself standing up and talking in front of people where it really matters what you convey, in terms of your whole being, your demeanor, your attitude, and that style question, I think, really comes to play. And whether you end up being an aggressive asshole lawyer or a lawyer that's come to negotiate and come to settle, I think somehow comes from those that you get to watch do great lawyering.
Let's just paint a picture. You're standing in front of a class of young law students who haven't practiced law professionally, and they know they want to be lawyers, but they don't have their own style. Everything they know about lawyering, they've learned on TV. What do you tell them about defining their own style of practice when it comes to aggression and performance?
Geneviève Torres:
I used to go once a year at USF and address, or even at Stetson, address, it was a judge that's retired now, Judge Gross, he would invite me every year to talk to the students about what it is, depending where in my life. So I used to be, when I had kids. So how do you, a first year attorney, second year attorney, how do you balance life and being a new attorney? And it was like, when you get married, and when you have kids, and this and that. So I would go back every year and then just talk to the students.
So as far as lawyering style, of how you found your own style, I think a lot of it is who you are, honestly. And I just think that every case, I approach every case, we start fresh, we're respectful. These are the facts, these are what's going on, how do we get this resolved? How do we get what my client needs? What's in best interest of the kids? So you don't need to approach it aggressively from the beginning.
And then, sometimes you have to. I mean, like I said, we're dealing with emergencies and people losing their families and losing their kids, thinking they're losing their kids or finances. So I mean, there's emergencies, and there's time that I need to be aggressive, because the other person is not paying child support, or has cut them off all the credit card. There's no access to money. There's no... Denying time sharing. And we get that all the time, almost every day. They're not letting me see my kids. And sometimes they'll do like, unless I give them money, then I don't get to see my kids. And those are the situation that you have to handle it a little bit somehow aggressively, just because it's just the nature of it, right? But I think, like I said a few time, I think a great attorney is a good balance of both, just minus the asshole part.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, minus the asshole part. All right. You are fantastic as an attorney. So grateful that you were able to join me for this conversation. But as a human being, you also have a fascinating background. What do you do with your life when you're not lawyering? How did you end up here? Let's talk about tennis, really, is what I want to talk about.
Geneviève Torres:
Wow. Okay. So I was recruited to play tennis for USF when I was 19, 18, from Montreal. So, spoke French my entire life. That was my first language. I learned English here. Didn't speak one word of English when I moved. So, had I just turned 18, actually, because I came in January, 1999. And I didn't speak a word of English. They assigned me a tutor who helped me after school, and then I was meeting with tutor every day and they would help with my homework. I was in a class learning how to speak English at USF. And then, but at the same time I was learning to speak English, but it was English 101, right? So I had to do both, because you have to to be a college student.
So, that's how I came to the US. I played four years for USF tennis. Then I got married. So I got married, then I stayed here. I went to law school at Stetson, started working in law firm. I started as a file clerk, moved my way up from legal assistant to paralegal to file clerk, law clerk, and then an attorney. So I kind of held all the positions, so it's easier. I also had my own firm for 13 years. So I had family law group for 13 years before I joined Seth.
On the off time, I got four kids. I got one from every... I have a five-year-old, six-year-old, 14-year-old, 17-year-old. So I got high school, I got... Now two in high school, because I have a senior in high school, now going to be a freshman in high school. I got elementary school and kindergarten. So I really got all of it, and...
Pete Wright:
I'm exhausted.
Geneviève Torres:
I know, I know, I know. And I still play tennis. I took up golf, so I'm playing golf now. So I was going to say, after this, I'm probably going to. It's really nice to outside. It's Friday afternoon.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you should take advantage of it. Well, I'll let you get to golf for sure, but thank you. Thank you so much for hanging out. You're fantastic, and I'm so glad to finally get to connect and have you on the show. Really, really appreciate it.
Geneviève Torres:
Oh, you're welcome. You're super welcome. Thank you for having me.
Pete Wright:
And thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We still have a couple more weeks of our summer of fun, and as Seth is off, once again, getting married, and we're thrilled to be able to continue to talk while he is off celebrating his nuptials. So thank you everybody for downloading, listening to this show. We appreciate your time and your attention. Don't forget, you can ask us questions, HowToSplitAToaster.com. Until then, on behalf of Geneviève Torres, I'm Pete Wright. We'll see you next time right here on How to Split a Toaster, a Divorce Podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law, with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
