The Startup CPG Podcast


In this episode of R&D RADIO, hosted by food scientist Adam Yee, Adam sits down with Esther Levy, founder of Evolve Food Consultants, to unpack the real decision-making process behind third-party certifications — organic, non-GMO, gluten-free, kosher, and beyond. Esther holds a Bachelor of Science in Human Nutrition and an MBA, brings over 15 years of experience in manufacturing, regulatory compliance, food labeling, and food safety, and spent a decade specializing in organic juice before founding her own consulting firm.


Esther and Adam get into why "getting certified organic" sounds simple but rarely is — breaking down the three forces that make or break a certification decision: ingredient supply, cost, and manufacturer availability. From an organic potato chip project that turned out to be nearly impossible to source, to the difference between making a substantiated claim versus paying for the trademarked logo, this episode maps out exactly what founders are getting into before they commit.


Listen in as they cover:

  • Why organic is often "doable" in theory but category-dependent in practice — and what determines whether it's a launch-day decision or a year-two goal
  • The real cost gap between organic and conventional ingredients, from pricing to minimum order quantities
  • Why an "organic potato chip" is one of the hardest products in food to actually source and produce
  • The difference between making a substantiated claim (like "non-GMO") and paying for a certification logo like the Non-GMO Project butterfly
  • How Esther uses hard data and real supplier quotes — not theoretical debate — to help founders make fast, informed certification decisions
  • Why even simple three-ingredient products are often the most complex to certify and manufacture at scale
  • The evolving nature of formulation and branding, and why almost no retail brand launched exactly as it exists today
  • Current food trends Esther is watching: upcycled and novel fibers, prebiotic claim substantiation, and rising demand for ingredient transparency
  • Why unsubstantiated claims — even from small brands — can trigger costly legal exposure, using the Poppi prebiotic lawsuit as a cautionary example
  • Why staying organized with documentation isn't just a nice-to-have — it's what protects a brand when a claim gets challenged


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Creators and Guests

Host
Adam Yee
Podcast Host and Food Scientist

What is The Startup CPG Podcast?

The top CPG podcast in the world, highlighting stories from founders, buyer spotlights, highly practical industry insights - all to give you a better chance at success.

Esther Levy
Organic is definitely doable. It is, but it really depends on the category. Whether you can launch or become organic in the early days versus maybe something you could consider longer term. Right. Because there's just less supply of organic ingredients manufacturers. Right. So it's just an availability component. There's definitely a barrier of entry even just on the cost perspective. Right. So if you are going organic, you're going to pay more, you know that. But then even just finding someone that can make it can be called challenge on certain categories. So many times what we've done with the brands we've helped launch is we source organic, declare organic ingredients on the ingredient panel, but don't get certified just yet.

01:05
Adam Yee
Hey everyone, this is Adam Yee, food scientist and podcast host of startup CPGs R&D RADIO where we interview food scientists and product developers and what they do and how they can help you build your CPG business. Today I'm interviewing Esther Levy from Evolve Food Consultants on the decision to make your product third party certified gluten free, Non GMO, USC organic. Esther's team does it all and has seen everything. She is a seasoned expert in the natural and organic food and beverage industry and holds a Bachelor's of Science and Human Nutrition along with a Master's of Business Administration among numerous accredited certifications. Esther has over 15 years of experience in the industry specializing in manufacturing and product development, regulatory compliance, food labeling, quality and food safety.

01:53
Adam Yee
And she is passionate about her work focusing on driving operational efficiency and bottom line profitability to help businesses succeed. It's really important to know that Esther has 10 years of experience in the juice industry, specifically with USDA Organic. And in this episode you'll learn about the trade offs of choosing to be certified. How something as simple as certifying a potato chip can be really complex and a story you can tell your customers if you plan to go this route. Enjoy this episode of Esther. I'm sure you'll learn a lot. All right, we're back with R&D RADIO and today I have a special guest, Esther Levy from Evolve Foods. How are you today?

02:34
Esther Levy
Hi, I'm doing great, Adam. Thank you so much for inviting me. Super excited.

02:39
Adam Yee
I'm glad I'm able to talk to you when you're an accomplished food scientist and have a great consulting firm. But also, I think when we talked last, I was really interested in understanding certifications. But before we kind of go into some of the stuff you do, I'd love to learn about you. Specifically, how did you get started as a food scientist and in Product development and what you do now for sure.

03:01
Esther Levy
Thank you. Yes. So I am Esther, the founder of Evolve Food Consultants. And I got started, you know, early in my career I really was very interested in nutrition. So in university I discovered the world of food science and was just very drawn by it and food production and just really was very interested and it seemed like a really cool career path practically. Right. Like actually working in the field. So that's. I ended up specializing in food science and after graduation, I started working with a juice company. Organic, packed in glass, super high quality. And since then, that's all I do really. We specialize in the organic and natural channel. That's our thing. I absolutely love it and leave it. It's a belief that you can shape the food industry for the better.

03:55
Esther Levy
And that's really our mission, to work with brands that have a true purpose, that want to bring wholesome, nutritious, delicious, safe food to the market. So super excited to be here and to share a little bit about my journey and the past three years working my own firm, Evolve Food.

04:16
Adam Yee
Love it. So you mentioned organic and there's a lot of like discussions about organic, specifically certification. And I know you specialize in and you probably get a lot inbound about certifications. You know, I think this is a really interesting topic for a lot of like emerging brands. Right. Like do I get certified or not? Do I have to get certified to certified bring more sales. I'd love to hear just how people approach you and how you talk to people about essentially being certified, whether it be gluten free or non GMO or USDA organic.

04:48
Esther Levy
Okay. Yeah, I love that question because we do get that a lot and we do handle a lot of certifications or just claim substantiation. And there's so many certifications you can get nowadays. I would say the main ones at least requests we get. Organic is number one on GMO for sure.

05:13
Adam Yee
Mm.

05:14
Esther Levy
Gluten free, vegan, kosher. Sometimes we've gotten curiosity on the new ultra processed food. No one wanting to be certified yet, but definitely curiosity. Like, do I qualify? I do think it's important maybe today to take some time. I. I would like that to understand because I keep having the same conversations, I feel with founders. Right. I think organic is definitely doable. It is. But it really depends on the category whether you can launch or become organic in the early days versus maybe something you could consider longer term. Right. Because there's just less supply of organic ingredients manufacturers. Right. So it's just an availability component and there's Definitely a barrier of entry, even just on the cost perspective. Right. So if you are going organic, you're going to pay more, you know that.

06:12
Esther Levy
But then even just finding someone that can make it can be called challenge on certain categories. So many times what we've done with the brands we've helped launch is we source organic, declare organic ingredients on the ingredient panel, but don't get certified just yet. And that's something that's added, you know, and can be added at year two, year one later on. That's our approach. Just sometimes it's possible from the start, sometimes it might best just to move towards that.

06:50
Adam Yee
So one example is like, let's say dates, and you can source an organic date and then you put on the label made with organic date paste or something like that.

06:58
Esther Levy
Right, Exactly.

07:00
Adam Yee
Cool. So you imagine kind of these three problems, right? I would say supply chain costs and the manufacturer. So I'd love to break that down a little bit. So, for example, supply chain, do you have like an estimate about like how many people are growing, like an organic variety of something versus a conventional variety? I think that would help a lot of people understand, like the scale, how scarce this might be.

07:21
Esther Levy
Yeah, I mean, I don't know in percentage. That's such a hard one. I've never done that. But I have been quoting for a project, organic versus conventional, we call conventional non organics. And I can tell you know, there's a lot of maybe spices. We're quoting like a really cool fiber. I can't disclose too much, but the conventional, it's available year round in stock minimum order, one pallet. Right. Organic is about 30% more, four pallet minimum, made to order.

07:56
Adam Yee
Right.

07:57
Esther Levy
So you start to see the difference. And it's like that for every ingredient. Maybe not exactly like that, but definitely, you know, for some of them, the price was even like double from the same supplier. And definitely just higher minimums. Made to order just gets more complex. And launching a product is already complex as it is. So to go organic, can you do it 100%? Right. You just need the capital, the commitment, the volume. Like you want to commit to that quantity. And the answer ends up answering for itself. Once you get the facts, that's just the truth. And that's our approach. Right. Like once you put it side to side, it's like, this is how much organic it's going to be and the volume and what's going to take to get us there. This is conventional. It's like, okay, yeah.

08:42
Adam Yee
So it's essentially it's a trade off, right? Once you see it side by side.

08:45
Esther Levy
Yeah. Because anything is possible, right?

08:48
Adam Yee
That's true. That's what we like to say as food scientists, right?

08:51
Esther Levy
Anything is possible. You know, we can get anyone certified. I've done organic certification. Like I can get a manufacturer certified. But are you, like, do you have the money to do it?

09:00
Adam Yee
Right.

09:01
Esther Levy
Like, I feel like we can really make magic.

09:04
Adam Yee
That's true. There are definitely projects like that. I'd love to kind of unearth this because I do think a lot of people just don't know this. Right? Like have no idea. Like they say, oh, it says organic. That should be easy. You mentioned cost. I'd love to understand not only the ingredient cost that you mentioned, but also is there like fee or maintenance fee for getting certified?

09:22
Esther Levy
Yeah, specifically for organic certifications. But all certifications there's annual fee and just the complexity of maintaining the records and the paperwork required to get and keep the certification. So you pay the certifier a fee annually. If there's an inspection required, which for example, organic does require an inspection, you need to pay for the inspection as well. And then just keeping that right, like maintaining it every year, the internal resources required for record keeping and documentation and just making sure that the programs are properly implemented. So there is always an additional cost. And if we look at, for example, other types of certifications or claims, maybe like non gmo, many times what we advise brands is the FDA has a lot of voluntary approved claims like non gmo. So sometimes as you're starting, you can start with a non GMO claim properly substantiated.

10:32
Esther Levy
And that's something we make emphasis. You still have all the records, test results, you know, if you're doing a high risk ingredient, maybe like corn, make sure that all the documents and test results you're getting comply with the requirements of let's say non GMO project verified, but don't apply yet. You can make a non GMO claim and then eventually apply for the certification, pay for it, and you already built the foundation and gathered the documents which you need anyways to substantiate your claim or to pursue certification. Right. It's the same thing they're going to request for a month.

11:12
Adam Yee
So that's the difference between, let's say a claim is written language that says like made with non GMO ingredients versus like the butterfly. Is that right?

11:20
Esther Levy
Exactly.

11:21
Adam Yee
Got it, Got it.

11:22
Esther Levy
The butterfly logo is a trade mark. So if you want to use a butterfly logo, you need to pay for that certification and then the last one.

11:31
Adam Yee
You talked about is manufacturing, which I think a lot of people get tripped up about. Right. So to find a manufacturer who also has to go through organic certification is harder than finding a one who's not right or any type of certification for that matter.

11:43
Esther Levy
Yeah, I think it depends on the category for sure because we work with a lot of organic manufacturers, but they're definitely not as many. But if you do have a category that maybe hasn't like such a high volume barrier of entry or then it might be more possible, but they are more scarce. That's just the truth.

12:06
Adam Yee
So what one example is like juice. Right. Would sounds like at least like organic juice is more common because of the high moqs and the. It feels like there's an industry history with like juice and organic, right?

12:19
Esther Levy
Yeah, I think juice. I work 10 years in juice and organic. For me organic would be an easy one. I think that's a doable project as organic. Definitely more expensive.

12:30
Adam Yee
Right.

12:30
Esther Levy
Like we keep coming back, but definitely doable.

12:34
Adam Yee
I guess. When you talk to a lot of brands and they talk about these certifications, do they mention like when the trade off is worth it in a sense generally? Like I don't know whether it's like higher sales or it is just the right market to go to. I'd love to hear just because I do think once you show that data of like the prices and the volumes, they might just say, oh, I want to do this because it will generate higher sales.

12:58
Esther Levy
Yeah, I think that's a hard question and it's very idealistic and I feel like such a consultant because all my answer, it depends. And we've worked with founders that are very I want organic. This is my way of living. And then you see that company two, three years and now they're doing non organic, you know. So even if you start organic, I find it interesting that even if you start organic, you have the product out there, it's just more expensive and you want to grow as a company. So they might even come out with non organic. We had a company that wanted to do organic potato chips. So can you do organic potato chips? Yes. I think there's literally, I think one brand that does it.

13:43
Adam Yee
Okay.

13:43
Esther Levy
Finding organic potatoes for potato chips. Unless you're committed to buying like substantial volumes. And I'm talking like hundreds, you know,.

13:54
Adam Yee
Like more than truckloads.

13:55
Esther Levy
Yeah. Of like potatoes and the season of it, you know, organic. So the complexity of it. Like for example, in that case it was like a no brainer. Right. Like I can't do organic right now. But if you had a founder that was truly committed, doing non organic wasn't an option, had the capital, then you could do it. That's why I say it depends. It depends on like how much resources and capital do you have, how much patience do you have too? Because it's going to be longer path to launch, to even just plan the launch and the growth of it, just to make sure that we have a consistent supply.

14:33
Adam Yee
This is a good point about like specific organic potatoes. Right. Potato chips. And you think of it as such a simple product. Right. Like potatoes and oil. Right. But you know, when you think about kind of the supply chain, you imagine seasonality, which, you know, if you can only grow like a quarter of the year, that cuts your supply chain by three fourths. Right. So I think this is something that, you know, we kind of take for granted in our food system. Right. Like what is actually grown. The farmers also have their own kind of process of certifying that their raw material or their commodity crop is organic as well. And that's pretty tough from what I understand. So like, you know, there's just so many of these layering factors when it comes to these certifications. Right?

15:15
Esther Levy
Yeah. And you know, I feel like it's. It looks so easy because it's like, oh, but we can find a farmer that can plant organic potatoes for me, you know, and I'm like, sure. Are we gonna buy the output? You know, the harvest every week? Like, they want consistency, like, can we do that 100%. But they. You need to commit to the volume and to the recurrent harvest of it and so on when you're starting. That's hard.

15:41
Adam Yee
Yeah. And to put like kind of screws on both ends. The potatoes can rot, right?

15:46
Esther Levy
Yes.

15:47
Adam Yee
I assume organic potatoes rot faster than conventional potato. I'm not sure. But you know, if you're dealing with just so much volume, that one your raw Joe can spoil, but also your finished good can spoil too, from like oxidation or something. Right.

15:59
Esther Levy
100%.

16:00
Adam Yee
You just have so many factors that are just really interesting just from this like two or three ingredient product, Right?

16:06
Esther Levy
Exactly. Yeah. And no, I honestly think the simplest ingredient, like the projects that we think are going to be the simplest because they have like three ingredients are like the most complex. Like this one.

16:16
Adam Yee
Yeah.

16:17
Esther Levy
You know, there's just so many details that you need to look out for sure. So no project is simple like ever. And like now I'm very aware, I'm like, okay, this one looks really simple. This is going to be Challenging, like it's not going to be as easy as it seems.

16:34
Adam Yee
Yeah, I guess. How do you convey that? I know you mentioned a few things like trade offs or showing them the difference specifically in price, but also how do you generally bring that up to founders who you know, do have a dream and do have like a conviction for healthier food? I guess how, and this is some advice I need to be honest with you. How do you bring that tough conversation up?

16:57
Esther Levy
Yeah, it's tough, but I think I've gotten better. And founders and marketing teams, they, you know, we can talk for hours on what we want and theoretical. So what I've learned and with my team, you know, Andrea, my partner is at some point we're like, we just do the research, present the data, show you the costs, the availability and the decision becomes so easy. Like we don't need to talk about it for hours and strategize and theorize and put together made up scenarios of the cost. Like we go out there, you have.

17:33
Adam Yee
To go out there.

17:33
Esther Levy
Yeah, yeah, we get the actual quotes. This is how much it's going to get us. It color cost us one pilot, four pilot. And the answer becomes easy because you have the. It's not theoretical anymore. So try not to spend too much time convincing in theoretical. I present the data and that's what we do and then we discuss the data and then we reach out a decision, you know, an informed decision. And that's just the best way.

17:59
Adam Yee
So yeah, I would say, you know, as scientists we're good at that, we're good at presenting the data. Do we need some finessing? Explain the data. I do think some scientists are better than that than others. But in general I do think that the data really counts. And you know, we use data to make informed decisions that won't be costly later down the line.

18:16
Esther Levy
Right, exactly. And then you refine it. Right. It's like, can you get another quote? I'm like, yes, I can, but it's very unlikely. It's going to be half. We understand it might be 20% better, like for sure. But like this is directionally how this is going to look like. Like, are you okay? So you can definitely make a pretty informed decision at that point with that.

18:37
Adam Yee
Yeah, as you mentioned, like early in the call, you can evolve your product. Right. Essentially like you can do the certification at a later stage in your business cycle.

18:46
Esther Levy
Yeah, we do that a lot. I think no brand that it's in retail right now started the way you're looking at it and we again, like, we show the data to some of our founders. I think we did it once we had a beverage, like a plant based beverage project and were looking at milk and we found pictures of like how milk started. And I swear, like it was like this farmer's market. Nothing, like absolutely nothing. So once they see that, they're like, oh, you know, because I feel like everyone right now, they just want to launch with this perfect product. Super cost competitive. You know, we're doing like one palette and then. But it has to be a dollar, it has to be in a custom bottle.

19:34
Esther Levy
So what we really try to do is to explain and show that nobody started like that unless we're doing truckloads of it, which, you know, I don't want to be involved for a new product.

19:45
Adam Yee
Bit risky. Yeah, yeah, right.

19:47
Esther Levy
I don't support crazy decisions. No, no. But you know what I'm saying.

19:52
Adam Yee
I know, I definitely know what you're saying for sure.

19:54
Esther Levy
I do support crazy decisions sometimes, unfortunately, by the way, you know, feel like a person enough. No, but that's usually true. This is an evolving process. It really is. It has to be. And that's why we chose Evolve Food as a core, like our name. Because wood manufacturing, like you're constantly evolving. Even trends and consumer taste test is changing. So like even your formulation will change over time. You know, you will refine it. It takes time.

20:29
Adam Yee
Yeah. It could take years. Right. And it's an ever growing process. And I also think your consumers like it when you grow. At least that's what I tell a lot of people.

20:37
Esther Levy
Yeah, I agree. They do, they do. And they appreciate sometimes, like a lot of the pivoting is for the better. So. Plus nowadays you can use all of that in social media. Right. Which is super cool. Like people can really connect with you and your brand.

20:53
Adam Yee
Yeah. Love it. Let's shift over to kind of food trends that you see that you love.

20:58
Esther Levy
To talk about food trends. I mean, I don't know. I think it's. Everyone wants fiber now, so it's. To me, it's a little boring. It's cool, but boring. Because I've been a fiber advocate since like 15 years ago. And I really thought the fiber trend. I remember I was in Juice and we had a project about a prebiotic juice and I was like, this is the year that fiber is going to trend. And I'm telling you, this was like 10 years ago. And then it just never did. So I don't know if it's me that Now I'm like, over it, you know, I'm like, why? Why now? I've been waiting for this for so long, and. But definitely. And we're seeing a lot of really cool ideas and, like, upcycled fruit or vegetable fibers, so not the traditional inulin, which is cool.

21:49
Esther Levy
Like, I think people maybe are a little. Inulin is easy. Right. So now we're looking into other really cool fibers, for sure. So that's exciting and interesting. And I am learning a lot more about just more customized fibers and the story, the way they're done. Sustainability, I would say another trend, just in general. And a lot of these fibers are very sustainable and upcycled because they're made from byproducts of the juice processing or, I don't know, peels of fruits or vegetables, even, like, super cool.

22:25
Adam Yee
Yeah, yeah. I've been noticing there's some companies that are trying to premiumize their fiber. Right. So they're trying to trademark it, they're trying to register it, they're trying to add more health studies to it. Right. Like clinicals, which I think is a really interesting shift. So it's like they're trying to shift the commodity fiber into like, a supplement, essentially, or some type of, like, unique ingredient that they can add to a food.

22:47
Esther Levy
I agree. And then also the prebiotic, too, I feel like. Because I've been getting in conversations too, about, like, have you conducted studies? Is this. Can we make a prebiotic claim? So I agree. I've seen companies, like, they're doing more internal research, too, on the different types of fibers and the types of claims you can make. Because not. And this is good advice for founders, like, not because you have fiber, you can make a prebiotic claim. Right. Like, it has to be properly substantiated. Another trend, probably transparency, I would say, just even on how consumers want ingredients declared. I feel like vanilla extract is not enough nowadays. It's like, it has to be something else. Like, it's pure sub ingredients. So that transparency component, definitely trending as well, I would say.

23:38
Adam Yee
Yeah. You mentioned about the claims for prebiotics. I recall reading a headline that Poppy got essentially sued for not hitting their prebiotic. Kind of what they're saying, right? You have to drink, like, five poppies, which is like, what, $40, to get the actual fiber claim for what they have.

23:56
Esther Levy
Yeah, I think I read that. Like, that was maybe a few years ago, but I saw that as well. I think also because they had even, like, very little fiber per serving.

24:04
Adam Yee
Yes.

24:06
Esther Levy
Like, I believe it wasn't even. I Don't know. I don't want to say something like.

24:09
Adam Yee
2 Grams or yeah, something like that.

24:10
Esther Levy
But yeah, we're recording accurate. Sure. They did get sued and like it wasn't, it was misleading. Yeah. So very careful with claims in general. For sure. We try to make sure they're properly substantiated. And just because a brand is small doesn't mean anything. It actually makes you an easier target sometimes.

24:32
Adam Yee
Oh, really?

24:33
Esther Levy
Yeah.

24:34
Adam Yee
Okay. Yeah, I mean, I do think there are some people who do pick up products, ship them to a lab and send you a lawsuit. Right.

24:42
Esther Levy
Yeah, there's a lot of like malicious plaintiff attorneys, unfortunately. And you don't see it on the news. Like I see it because we're working with companies, but these are things that are settled internally so it's never even made public.

24:56
Adam Yee
That's true. Yeah.

24:57
Esther Levy
Yeah. So unfortunately, like it's pretty common even like for small brands. So you gotta be careful, make sure it's substantiated, make sure you're doing your research and keeping everything pretty organized and on file.

25:10
Adam Yee
Yeah, it's definitely true. Unfortunately, I'm not a super organized person. It's not one of my skills, but that's why I don't do the work you do. But I agree that the certification stuff is really a testament of being organized.

25:23
Esther Levy
Right.

25:23
Adam Yee
And this goes throughout everything from not only certification, but also food safety and manufacturing, all things like that. Right?

25:31
Esther Levy
Yeah. Organization is key in all of this for sure. Like even just operations in general. So if you want to be efficient, you want to be organized and that's something we try to teach when we work with companies too. Like at least how we organize ourselves and we create like we share a lot of Google Drives, clients and everything's in folder like super easy to find. We don't waste time finding stuff on emails, even like on my Gemini. That can search it on my email right now. Right.

26:04
Adam Yee
For sure. We're going to wrap up here but just love to hear how we can find you for advice or your website and the work you do.

26:13
Esther Levy
Yeah, so My website is evolvefoodconsultants.com and you can find me. I am on LinkedIn. I took a break but now I'm back so follow me. And my email is esthervolvedfoodconsultants.com or just contact Adam and yeah, for sure he can point you to me. But excited. You know I have been part of the startup CPG community for a while and I think what you guys are doing nice, pretty great and lots of opportunities for starting brands and connections. And this industry is truly all about relationships. So do nurture those and make sure you have proper intentions and then you'll do great. Because I feel like we're such a great community, just, you know, the CBG.

27:00
Adam Yee
In general, I always say it's an interconnected business, right? Like you talk to people in tech and they're generally siloed, but food, you have to essentially depend one another to succeed as a business 100%.

27:13
Esther Levy
And then you meet someone at a company and then they move to another. So you just never know. Everything's interconnected. And we're nice people overall.

27:22
Adam Yee
I agree. I agree. Thank you for listening to startup CPG's R&D RADIO. I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation. We've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast. I'm proud to be part of this team that's part of the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. As you may know, we're not just a podcast. We're a community of brands and experts and you should join. You can sign up @startupcpg.com and you'll then get invited to our online Slack community and be informed on great guests and amazing networking opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands and more. Thank you for listening and have a great day.