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The Home of Self Build, Custom Build & Renovation
• 67,000 sq. ft. year-round resource centre with 200+ stands
• Independent advice on everything from planning to plastering
• Self Build courses, exhibitions and Architect consultation days
• Free entry, plenty of parking and easy access just off the M4
These episodes will investigate various subjects in more detail, with expert guests, and previewing upcoming shows and events to help you with your potential or current self build and renovation projects.
Good afternoon.
Welcome to episode two of
Self Build and Renovation Live.
This time we're doing a Meet
the Experts and I've got
two of the experts here and
we're doing something a
little bit different this time,
circumstances,
is that we're doing a
hybrid show because we're
also going to have somebody
joining us remotely as well.
First of all,
if I bring out the cameras
because I want to introduce
who is here with us,
we are addressing funding a project,
finding a plot and planning permission.
That's three areas that we're touching on.
So, of course,
I had to get the managing
director of NSBRC, Harvey Fremlin.
Hi, Harvey.
Hi, Chris.
Congratulations on the recent wedding,
by the way.
Thank you.
Yep.
Ten days.
Ten days married, I think, today.
So just whistle-stop tour
back from honeymoon,
but excited to be here.
Congratulations.
Absolutely.
Wonderful to see you back as well.
And then, of course,
one of the big guests that
we've got here is Mark Dudes, an RTPI.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Because you're an
independent planning consultant.
And of course,
you're a presenter here at NSVRC.
I am.
Yes, I am.
Well, it's getting on for ten years now.
Yeah, I think it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Fair shout.
So we're going to be picking
your brains about all of that.
So welcome, Mark.
And I'm then going to bring
in remotely up in Scotland.
Let's bring him straight in.
We've got Tom McSherry from Bill Store.
Hi, Tom.
Hi there.
How are you?
Good afternoon.
Good to speak to you, my friend.
Now,
you're the National Business
Development Manager at BuildStore,
who I think it's safe to
say the market leader in
self-build finance.
Is that okay for me to say that?
No,
I think that's a fair reflection of
what we do, absolutely.
Yeah, and congratulations, Harvey, as well,
formally.
Thanks, Tom.
There we go.
You knew you weren't going
to get away with that.
No, absolutely.
I was pleased I could bring
a can back with me as well
from the honeymoon.
Absolutely.
It had to be done.
First things first, Harvey,
I want to turn to you
because it kind of segues
in the beginning and end.
One of the big things that
we're building up with
these episodes to is
October the eleventh.
It's your big national
self-fed and renovation show.
Twenty three days to go.
So it's when it gets exciting now.
So two or three weeks out,
the bookings start to come in.
So I think we've got
approaching five hundred
people booked already to
attend the two days, which is brilliant.
So, yes, when the activity really ramps up,
we've got a brilliant
timetable of talks and
masterclasses and demos and
experts to talk to and mark
and tom who have been
associated with the center
for a long time tom since
the very inception actually
back in and as mark was
saying mark's been involved
with us for over ten years
so we've got and then just
a small sample of some
amazing experts that we've
got who are here to
help people understand the
various stages that they're
going to be going through
in a project whether that's
a new build a renovation a
retrofit because it can be
intimidating it can be it's
it is a we've said this
before because it's this
really steep learning curve
that that people are going
to be going through and so
to be able to have that
reassurance of talking to
people who really know
their stuff they do it day
in day out I think that's
really valuable and I think
mark you just made the
comment about it being daunting
I've kind of identified the
people that come to the show.
The link is just here below
us at the moment and it's free tickets.
If you order,
you go and put your tickets
in advance is that either you're already,
I'm definitely doing it and
it's daunting or I've got a
block on one particular
subject or I want to look further.
But there's also,
there are people that are kind of going,
I've quite fancy that,
but I have no idea what's involved.
And also,
to come along to these shows
aren't they yeah that's
right I mean some it's a
quite a journey I think
journey is the best way to
think of it and sometimes
you have to realize you
want to embark on that
before you do um and in
terms of the planning input
I mean the raw ingredient
for a house is the lab
isn't it it's a plot and
what we always say to
people is without that plot
it's just a dream
And in many ways,
all the interesting stalls
and exhibitors that are
behind me in the rest of the show,
those are the retail end.
But actually,
the fundamental ingredient is the land.
If you don't have a bot,
if you don't have planning,
you are just having a dream.
So you need to engage with
that part of the process as
early on as possible.
And the retail bit's fun.
And that's great.
And it has its role and its place.
There's some really great
products out there,
but the raw ingredient,
the most fundamental one, is that plot.
So what we always say is focus on that.
Absolutely.
And before I turn to Tom,
what does MRTPI stand for?
So it means it's a
designation to say I'm a
member of the Royal Town
Planning Institute.
So I'm a chartered, qualified,
insured person.
professional and one of the
things we've said lots of
times haven't we is to make
sure that if you are taking
advice to the person that
you are dealing with
actually does have the
qualification because
there's a lot of people in
legitimate sister related
fields but not they may not
necessarily be charter planners and
um you know that that could
be a surveyor or an
architect or um or some
other field but having a
chance to town planner on
board the on means you're
going to get um good
quality advice that's in
your interests you know not
it might have some other
vested interest in selling
you something later on um a
town planner should be
acting in your interests
perfect and we'll certainly
have that um I'm going to
turn it to you tom at the
moment by the way anybody
that's watching if you've got questions
comments please type them in
the comments of wherever
you're watching whether
that's on the NSP RC
Facebook YouTube or
LinkedIn channels type them
in because we can put them
up on screen and the guys
can actually answer them
live for you but Tom turn
into you first sort of big
deep question I guess in
reality it might be a very
generic question here but
then forgive me on this one
but how did people
How typically can people
fund such a project,
a self-build or a renovation project?
It's a good question and
it's part of that daunting
journey that Mark just
touched on where the centre
demystifies much of it
actually and provides that
independent advice.
When the centre
was originally formed in its design.
When you entered it,
it was the finance section
before moving into the land section.
And that was in a particular,
the design of that was for good reason,
is you need to know your budget
before you go searching for land,
or a barn for conversion,
or a renovation house,
or before you're even going
to design the house.
But from a pure finance perspective,
there's a number of ways.
The TV programs do little to
dispel the myth.
People still think they have
to sell their house and
move into a caravan on site.
But the reality is that the
stage payment mortgage
market is a very mature
market supported
predominantly by building societies.
I'm always quick to say the
clues in the name is why
they were formed and they
can provide finance for
to mortgage an uninhabitable property,
which again,
many people think you can't
get a mortgage if it
doesn't have a functioning
kitchen and bathroom.
So there's a do or upper.
Barn conversions, self-build, custom build,
which we may touch on.
So there is a real depth of
building societies who
provide bespoke finance for
projects just like this.
And there's also a suite of products for
a marketplace that I'm
stepping all too close to,
which is when you get too
old to borrow in terms of a
mortgage term.
I don't have twenty-five years to borrow.
The reality is I probably
don't have twenty-five years,
but we may be in a position
where many of the customers
will be asset rich,
but perhaps income poor.
There is a suite of products, again,
to meet the demand for
those who are wanting to downsize,
looking to design a house
that's more suited to their
family or their personal
requirements at that stage of life.
And perhaps want to, quite importantly,
reduce the carbon impact
that their family home has,
therefore reduce the running costs.
And if we reduce the running
costs in retirement, of course,
it makes life a wee bit more manageable.
So there's a great depth of
products and lenders out
there of which Buildstore
manage and distribute many of them.
That's a good point, actually,
because you've touched on a good point.
I think one of the drivers
that we come across as a
practice for people to
build their own home is to
have a lower cost, lower carbon,
lower cost feature.
So they might be in an older property,
which they might be
spending hundreds and
hundreds of pounds a month
on electricity or gas.
A new build property,
particularly one that has
renewable energy,
could be photovoltaics on the roof.
we'll have a significantly
lower monthly cost and a
carbon footprint attendant to that.
So that's a really good
point you make there, Tom.
Yeah.
There's motivations.
Yeah,
just more suits to retirement as well,
doesn't it?
Yeah, so I mean, on the motivation,
so at the centre we run our
annual survey.
So we're asking our visitors, you know,
why are you doing this project?
What are the things that are
motivating you?
What are the challenges?
And the three reasons why
people are doing it,
whether it's a self-build
or a significant renovation,
pretty much always stay the same.
So number one,
it's designing and building
something that's great quality,
much higher quality than
the kind of mass market the
volume house builders can
provide in the UK.
We all hear the horror
stories of the big boxes
being delivered on the edge
of communities and no one
wants that really.
So quality is number one.
Number two, as Mark just said,
it's about energy
efficiency and building
something that's really airtight,
great insulation.
You're designing out your
energy consumption, really.
And then thirdly, it's, as Tom mentioned,
it's about building
something that fits around
your lifestyle and your family.
now whether that's that
you're expanding your
family and you need uh you
know more room for the kids
growing up or home office
or you actually might be
thinking about downsizing
as tom mentioned uh perhaps
even having a granny annex
on the side and you know
they are the three reasons
why people are doing it and
are walking through our doors
is there not and I don't
know who I would aim this
question and I do apologize
if it's a naive question
from from myself um is
there not a fourth one of
investment that people
doing this where they're
building it they're long
So those wouldn't fall under
the definition of a
self-builder as far as the
government is concerned.
So a self-builder is someone
who is by subdividing a
plot or creating a plot and
then going to erect their
dwelling and then live in
it for at least three years.
You have to live in it for
at least three years in
order to be exempt from SIL payments,
Community Infrastructure Levy payments,
which can be pretty significant.
They could be anything from
twenty to sixty thousand pounds.
which you're exempt from as
a self-builder.
But if you were to move out
or sell within the three-year period,
then you would have to
repay a proportion of that back.
So that's a really important
point to make.
Because I guess you're not a self-builder.
I guess the clue from the target,
you're a builder.
Yeah, you're a developer.
Even if, you know,
because I've heard people that they've...
many different ways that
they come into land.
And they're kind of like, okay, well,
I'm going to build this or
these and until I'm off on happy days,
that's more than the land
was on its own if I sold that.
But that's a different gravy altogether.
Do you guys get involved
with people that have close?
Yeah,
I think we should probably put that
to Tom because that ability
to have instant equity is
absolutely viable, but Tom's the expert,
he should probably tell us.
Yeah,
it's interesting because there's
effectively...
self-building or custom
building your own home
you're taking out that
developer profit and that's
often retained by the
customers doing it
themselves so there is an
element of profit there
which is retained in equity
and we will have many
customers over the years
who have repeated the
journey either to improve
the property they're living
in doing it more than once
or to erode their mortgage facility,
and two or three down the line,
they may be mortgage-free
as they've used up the
equity on the previous project.
But we do have a significant
department within the
business that looks after
developers who are either
building to sell or building to let,
and that could be one office at a time,
SME builders doing three or four,
and it probably dovetails in now to
we're starting to see a lot of,
as custom builds evolved,
developers who may have
built houses to sell are
now creating service plots
with roads and services in,
which then marries in for
individuals coming in to
take on their own plot and
perhaps even have a design
and build process with the contractor.
So there is a crossover with custom build.
And I think, you know,
The sector probably moves
between ten and fourteen
thousand self-builds every year,
depending on where you take
the information from.
But there's legislation now
in England that should help
grow the sector and the mortgage products,
I think,
will also do that with smaller deposits,
lenders up to ninety five
percent now is really important.
But I think custom builds
the opportunity where it
will be volumized.
And even those volume house
builders that Harvey mentioned,
many of the local
authorities now have
percentage policies within their planning,
probably could expand on it, where, yes,
we'll give you planning
permission for three hundred units.
But as part of this,
you need to allocate ten
plots for self-build or custom build.
So there's actually a
marriage to the new build market now.
So you're right,
some local authorities have had,
some have had for years,
but some of the more recent
ones going through a local
plan cycle are in adopting
policies which mandate a
certain number of plots to
be made available to the
self-build market as part
of a much bigger consent.
And that is a double-edged sword.
It is great to see local
authorities trying to meet
the needs of different
groups within the overall marketplace.
But equally, self-builders generally
not all self builders want
to buy a plot on a much
larger housing estate.
And that also causes
problems if you then come
in for a particularly bold design,
might be a glass and steel house,
and you're surrounded by
other houses built by a
national house builder, which might be,
you know,
red brick and concrete tile
roof or whatever,
you would then be coming in
with something pretty
discordant to how the street looks.
That's something to factor in.
But the point that you made, Tom,
earlier was really interesting.
We've dealt with quite a few
small sites for threes, fours, fives,
where our client wants to
build one of those houses
But they want to then
finance the building of
that house and make a
profit off of selling off two, three,
four serviced plots to
other self-builders.
And that's quite a popular
and pretty lucrative option
because it means that you
can sell the plots as plots
and get a premium for that.
You're having to build the
road anyway for your own house,
but of course it adds value
to the overall sale,
having all the roads provided,
utilities provided, etc.
So that can be a pretty good option.
And of course,
I'm sure that would also be
favourably looked upon by
mortgage lenders, I'm guessing,
because the plots you're
selling are selling at a
premium at the peak of their value.
Yeah,
there's a real planning process for
custom build because what
you have is a number of
plots and for the
developers and custom build enablers,
house builders that we've worked with,
we effectively put a plan
in place from the outset
where we go to the lenders
and create a lender panel.
for the development.
So there's no doubt that the
mortgage solutions are there.
So there's a pre-planned
panel put in place and
sharing with them real
detail around the planning stage,
how the plots will be delivered,
at what point is it outlined, planning,
detailed, golden brick,
and who the professionals will be,
the materials being used,
the superstructure.
So we're removing all of the
doubt and getting the
support from the lenders
right from the outset.
And I think that's really
important so that you
create a real certainty and
remove bumps in the road
for both the house built,
the developer themselves,
but the plot buyer.
there's that new build
market that unfortunately
in the UK we're pretty
embarrassingly sitting
about I think Harvey you
probably do the surveys
there's about ten percent
of the UK housing is
through self and custom
build where Norway,
Germany you know etc are
put between forty and
eighty percent we're
definitely lagging behind
yeah it's pretty poor but I
think custom build is the
one that will bring us
along because we have I suppose been
educated in a certain way
that new builds how our
housing market's delivered.
But that right move type
customer who probably wants
more choice and the things
that Harvey mentioned, better quality,
lower energy bills are not
being provided that at the
moment through there,
but they perhaps think that
the real end of self-build
is a bit too scary for them.
There's that middle ground
where the roads are in,
the services are in,
there's perhaps house types
you can choose from,
there's a better quality.
That middle ground might
attract many of the right
traditional right move
customers rather than the
entrepreneurial self-builder.
And there are lots of
providers that offer a sort
of turnkey solution, don't they, Tom,
where a self-builder can
often say the heaviest
thing you might have to
lift would be a pen to
write the check out.
Because the word
self-builder can actually
have a huge spectrum, can't it,
of people who, you know,
in the one instance just
want to lift a pen to write
a check and on the other
end want to do every single
part themselves.
Which is a valid point
because I've always thought, oh,
this isn't an area that I'm
likely to be able to get in.
involved in because I think
of some of my old school
friends and stuff that have
gone into the trades and you think, well,
they're able to do a chunk
of it themselves and then
work out what else.
But actually we're saying
that there is that opportunity that goes,
no,
it's not self as in Chris Dawes
building it.
So that survey that I mentioned earlier,
so the barriers,
interesting funding and financing,
that does not appear in one
of the top kind of challenges for people.
It's planning, number one, frustratingly.
It's finding the plot that we've mentioned,
and then it's time.
And so it might be that if
you come to the show,
you will see the
demographic of our visitors
coming to the show will be typically,
not always, but typically couples,
people in their mid-fifties plus.
Now,
that's partly because they're probably
financially in a position
to be able to take on projects.
But crucially,
they probably got a bit more
time actually to dedicate it.
Because as we said right at the beginning,
they're going through this
steep learning curve.
and internally and I'm aware
we've got you know
potential visitors watching
this now so but internally
we would kind of broadly
group our vistas into three
categories so one end
you've got what we would
class as a trader so they
might actually have a set
of uh skills a profession
they're in the trade
themselves groundsmen
Yeah, electrician, carpenter,
any of those skills.
Now, ironically,
what typically happens is
they kind of put their own
projects to the back of paying customers.
So they might save some
money on their project,
but it might take longer to
actually get to the end result.
The other end of the spectrum,
as Tom mentioned,
you've got what we would
classify as kind of executives.
So
Cash rich, time poor.
They've got the finance ready.
They've got the will and the
desire to do it.
And then why do they do it?
But they're full time employees.
They haven't got the time.
So that's where your package companies,
those providers really come
into their own.
But actually somewhere in the middle,
which is probably the most
people that come to the centre,
we would regard as project managers.
So to a greater or lesser extent,
they're involved in some of
the decisions.
They'll certainly be
negotiating some of the contracts,
either with the package
company or with the contractors,
builders on site.
They'll be dealing with some
of the trades.
They'll be deciding what
materials they want to buy,
what materials are better
for the builders to buy as well.
But they will have some
involvement in that project
management process.
So we offer a one-day
project management course.
So they're not going to be
able to go out and offer
their services as a project manager.
But if you've planned a wedding,
in my case,
or a big party or some kind of event,
you can project manage a self-build.
But people want to really
throw themselves into it
and understand those different processes.
It's a big investment financially, time,
your future, everything.
So I'd get that.
um that's a good way of
thinking of it though
you're right yeah that's my
experience as well I have a
lot of people um you either
have the kind of time-rich
asset or you know typically
that might be a retiree who
has kind of got lots of
time but is on a fixed
income yeah and then there
might be um exactly like
you say the project
managers who are in the
messy middle it's cool
isn't it I've heard that
phrase recently where
you've got you're being
pulled in all directions
with your career and
children and then having to
have another pretty major
project of finding a plot as
you know assessing it
buying it whatever and then
going through the pretty
long it can be a very long
planning process um and
then go out to build it um
can be different I mean one
of the things that tom
mentioned um about service
plots of course if you buy
a service plot you are uh
making a major shortcut in
your uh overall end-to-end
timelines so um you are
buying something where you
know a lot of the headache
has been taken out of the
plan you're reducing some of the risk
risk as well,
because a lot of the risk in
a project can, as Tom will know,
lie in the groundworks and
putting the utilities and
foundations in place.
So if that enabling
developer has already done
that work for you,
you might be paying a
premium for that plot.
But a lot of the risk and
the time is already being
dealt with on your behalf.
We dealt with a client in
Buckinghamshire recently
who bought a plot,
bought some land with a
view to getting planning permission.
We did get the planning
permission after a bit of a fight,
but we got planning permission.
And then one of the
conditions of a mortgage
lender was to have a ground
contamination report.
which which didn't come up
in the planning system
actually but it turned out
that there was trace
elements of hydrocarbon so
there might be oil or some
might have been a garage
use or something in there
and that that just then
that one piece of news
meant that you had to remove
think it was about a metre
to a metre and a half of
soil throughout the whole site.
And you can imagine that not
only are you dealing with
low-level contaminated land,
you can't just go and dump
it somewhere or take it to
your local refuse centre,
you're talking about skips
and skips and skips worth
of lightly contaminated
soil,
which you then need to buy new soil
and bring it in.
So actually that was a huge
piece of bad news for the client.
And that's going to have a
direct impact on their budgeting as well.
I mean,
that actually does and sort of like
slightly off the structure
that we were going to go with.
But Tom really hit a point
that I wasn't aware of there that
I'd always envisage if I
want to do a self-built
renovation I would have to
be staying in that mobile
home or whatever on the
site and it's interesting
to see that but to take it
further then to open it up
tom is that how and it
might be as much to you
mark is that how much of
the sort of investigative
work is done up front so in
other words when we're
talking about finding the
the plot is this assistance
there to kind of go right I
think I've got a plot of land
But would this be suitable?
Then if it is suitable,
is the price of that land reasonable?
What would it cost me to build on it?
What do I need to borrow?
I mean, for me, Tom, I'll start with you.
That feels like a lot of...
unknown before I even have
the confidence to start
finding out even more
detail about a plot of land.
Chris,
it's a really good point and I
touched on earlier where
the budget is so critical
to the start of the whole journey.
The amount of times that
we'll have clients turning
up with detailed planning
consent and drawings for a
three hundred square metre house,
who can afford to build a
two hundred square metre
house that yet haven't got
to their budget position
really firmed up.
The centre with the advisors,
the ability to set that
early on is really helpful.
But the product design with
the building societies equally help it.
The lenders allow you to
purchase the land with
outline planning permission.
I think Mark was indicating
that client may have taken
the gamble in some form.
to buy it before it had planning.
And there are huge gains to
be made there because
obviously they're buying
for considerably less.
But the lenders will require
it to have minimum outline
planning permission with
the subsequent stage
releases being triggered
with the detailed consent
once that's there.
But it's really important that
And I think what the centre
does is does this naturally.
There are industry experts
that this is what they do every day.
They're not general practitioners.
And within BuildStore, yeah, absolutely,
absolutely.
Within BuildStore,
we've built a number of
safety nets into our
processes that help
customers who go into this
with confidence
Without true building
experience or knowledge of
many of these things,
so setting the budgets,
that starting point,
but when someone then finds
a plot of land and provides
perhaps an indicative set
of build costs initially,
We have a team of
professional build
specialists who take those
plans and drawings to
ensure that the customer's
build costs that they're
provided with are sensible
and will complete the build,
including contingency.
So even at the early stage,
there is an additional
layer of professional
support that ensures that
the build costs are
sensible to start with
because if they set off
with that irresponsible to start with,
That's an interesting TV programme,
but it won't get the project finished.
This is about starting the
journey with the end in
mind and putting the processes in place.
To give an illustration on that,
it's quite often in the
planning process you end up
compromising in some way.
So you would either have a
slightly different design
or you'd have to have some
off-site works or junction improvements.
It might be a poor
visibility splay on your site.
And every sort of compromise
step you make often
and dramatically change what
you actually end up,
how you end up building what you're doing,
the building system that you're using.
You might have in mind an ICF,
so a concrete system,
but due to the compromises made,
you end up having to have a
different system, which could be,
you know,
I'm just going to pluck numbers
out of thin air, but it could be ten,
twenty,
thirty percent more expensive to build,
or the local authority,
the last minute committee, let's say,
and this is a real life example,
slipped in a particular wood
for a client that the
counsellors felt was
particularly appropriate.
But it turned out that wood
was imported from Siberia.
It was a particular type of
larch and you can imagine
the cost of that was simply
three times the price of
something more locally
sourced in the area.
So you do need to dive into
the detail and check everything.
But Tom's mentioned earlier
about the planning is
probably a good point to
talk about the different
types of consents out there.
So you can have a hybrid
consent is one that people
don't often realize you can
get the full plan
permission on one plot and
get outline permission for two,
three or four other plots.
So that's the style of
permission which we
submitted where the client
was selling off those
service plots so that way
somebody has a product they
can sell the outline
permission for the plot but
they also have the full
details sorted out for
their plot that's called a
hybrid application they're
relatively unusual but if
someone's self-building a
barn conversion then you
wouldn't necessarily need a
full-time permission at all
you might go for a class
queue application
And really that depends,
which is a type of prior
notification application,
which is still a planning application,
but it's a different type of one.
Or if the local authority
has a particularly
favourable full planning
permission policy,
we often wouldn't go down
the class key route and go
for that instead.
So notably,
In this area,
Cotswold District Council
have a very good conversion
policy for barns,
so we don't tend to do class Qs at all.
Obviously,
a lot of the Cotswold District
Council is an area of
outstanding natural beauty,
so you're not eligible for class Q,
but by no means all of it is.
Unless you're Jeremy Clarkson.
Unless you're Jeremy Clarkson.
Or then there's the Veil of White Horse.
They have a really positive policy,
which would mean we don't
often do class queues
within Veil of White Horse.
The interesting thing with
Jeremy Clarkson was it
showed everyone the
frustrations of that local
planning process, didn't it?
Some of the small-minded
decisions or short-sighted
decisions that are made
without being able to see
the greater impact of that project.
And I think kind of
listening to Mark and Tom,
and this is when we were
kind of creating this episode,
it's already coming across
loud and clear.
Something I must remember to
say is that what Tom
mentioned is so important
about the first thing you do, actually,
if you're embarking on one
of these projects,
is you build a team of
people around you that are
going to support and help
you through the process.
Yeah.
And the reason you do that
is you cannot be expected
to have all the knowledge
that these genuine experts have yourself.
So build that team of people
around you who are experts
and also interested in what you're doing,
interested in your
particular unique project.
Now,
those experts are going to charge a fee.
They have to pay their own
mortgages and feed their
kids and they will charge a fee.
But the value,
and you can hear it from the
information that Mark and
Tom have just given us in
the last twenty minutes,
it is so valuable and it
will save you so much more
money than you're spending on those fees.
So when you're working out
with Tom and the guys from
Buildstore what your budget is,
you do need to not be
surprised by some
professional fees and make
sure you're building that
into your budget.
because that payment,
that money will reap the
benefits many times over.
A good example of that is,
and I agree with you,
I think to go from sort of
field to having building
control approved plans,
you need to budget for in
the order of six to ten
percent of the build cost
that you've got in mind.
So if you have a budget of
three hundred thousand
pounds or four hundred thousand pounds,
then you're looking at
thirty to forty thousand to go from
um you know no planning
permission through to
getting a permission
discharging the conditions
getting building control
approval um and all of the
relevant certification
around that um a good
example is um exactly like
you say is often with
building control drawings I
mean I'm a chat I'm a town
planner so we don't we we
work with architects to
produce building control um
construction drawings um
but a good example is if
investing in great drawings
early on can actually save
you quite a lot of money
because an architect can
value engineer a build.
And then if you go to tender,
if you don't specify all of
the details necessary,
you'll find if you go to
tender with three or four
construction companies,
they're all going to work
on the worst case scenario.
But if it turns out you have
specified something that
isn't the worst case scenario,
actually you'll get a more
competitive price because
often people won't climb
down from those prices when
they realize oh we didn't
go for that type of pile we
budgeted the pile
foundation rather than a
slab foundation say and so
investing in building
control drawings um you
know construction drawings
once you have plan
permission is a really is
often something that pays
for itself several times
over because they are
costly you know they are a
costly chunk um of money to
spend but actually often it
saves you the money in the medium term
I think it's really
worthwhile because these
are really important parts
of that whole budgeting
journey because whether it's engineers,
planning, architects, site insurance,
lawyers, baliers,
there are professional
costs that don't physically
go into the building of the
house that come out of your savings,
you pay for them and it
sounds like a bit of a disadvantage
However, it's exempt,
potentially exempt from VAT.
So your contractor shouldn't charge that.
And if you buy materials,
there's a VAT reclaim
process at the end of the build.
But even more significantly,
the stamp duty is only
applicable in the purchase
price of the plot of the land.
And I mean, as an example,
just now one of the custom
build sites were funding the stamp duties,
seven and a half thousand
pounds for the plot.
if it was based on the end
value of the house,
it would be eight to one
and a half thousand pounds.
So, you know,
please don't be caught by the fact that,
oh, this is expensive to do,
which is often the perception.
Some of the benefits far
outweigh in terms of stamp duty,
VAT reclaim,
the ability to design your
own home and long-term
reduce the running cost of
the house against what you
would have buying off a
volume and often tom I know
it's not a town planning
point but when people talk
about things being costly
they often make false
comparisons so they'll say
well that's expensive and
then but compared to what
my alternative is what is
it buy a house that
probably isn't going to be
particularly energy efficient
I will need to retrofit
solar to or better
insulation or cladding or whatever it is,
or make a modification
because it doesn't have the
annex that I wanted or the
downstairs kitchen diners I wanted.
Whereas when you're building a new house,
you are building what you
want to your design,
to your specification.
So it's important to compare
like the like.
when when making those calls
and individual self
builders can actually have
an advantage when they're
looking at buying a plot
against a local developer
because that developer is
going to be building to
turn a profit whereas a
self builder is building to
probably live in there for
many years to come so they
don't need to build in that
profit he's also got to pay
sill yeah exactly yeah so
self builders will have a
competitive edge on some plots
Yeah, you're right.
And that SIL point is important as well,
because small builders have
experienced real pressure
in the last ten to twenty years.
And one of the reasons is
that the planning system
has become more complicated
and costly to interact with.
And so the cost typically of preparing,
say, a scheme of three, four,
five houses is pretty
comparable to a scheme of
fifteen to twenty houses.
You still need a highways report.
You still need your ecology reports.
You still need drainage or
percolation or heritage
report or archaeology.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter completely,
but they're very comparable costs,
whether you're building a
couple of houses or ten to fifteen.
So that small to medium
sized builder has become
particularly pinched in the middle.
And I think one of the key
things to emphasise here is
that this episode is not
going to be giving you all
the answers right now.
It is sort of letting you be
aware that this is more
doable than you might think.
There are a whole load of
experts available and what
the National Self-Burn and
Renovation Centre does here
is brings everybody and
everything together under the one roof.
I mean you will hear noise
in the background of our
episode here and we make no
apologies for it because um
you've got a big event
going on here at the nsbrc
you know you're going to be
you guys are going to be
giving lectures at the
event on the left of
october they constantly is
all sorts of things plus if
you need to rent it by the
way you can rent it for
your own events here as well
And then they're coming out
for lunch in a second,
but I've noticed the first
thing they're doing is
wandering around everything that is here,
people to speak, people to look at.
And I think that was, Harvey, you and I,
when we spoke about this,
is this episode was meet the experts,
get the conversations going,
And know that you can come
on those two days,
or one of those two days,
and listen to more detailed
conversations.
Create the connection to go
and follow up on those bits and pieces.
And I wanted to just, again, make sure,
don't feel overwhelmed,
even with what we're touching on now,
and maybe not going as deep
as you would like.
These guys can take you as
deep as you need to,
and the show is a good place to start.
And the show is, obviously,
that's coming up in a few weeks' time.
But of course,
the beauty of the centre is
it's here all year round.
So we're open to the public
Tuesday to Sunday,
and we've got a calendar of workshops,
courses, other shows.
Different market days.
Yeah, all the time.
So every month there's kind of two, three,
four things happening.
And it isn't unusual for visitors,
if they find us at the
early stage of a project, to come back,
well, fifteen, twenty times,
because there is so much to see here,
so many people to engage with.
And that's what's lovely about the centre.
It's just this kind of hub.
It's the hub of the sector, really.
And it just brings people together.
And it's just so lovely
being able to kind of facilitate that,
make introductions,
and then see people who
have arrived with a few
sketches a couple of years
ago are now coming in
showing us photos on their ride paths.
That's the best bit, I think.
of what they've achieved and
what they're now living in.
It's just amazing.
That part of it I really enjoy.
So it's really great to see
people coming back.
And you'll see someone at a
show and you might
recognise them and call
them over or they'll come over to me.
And I would have helped them
two or three or four years ago.
And they're at the point now
where they're choosing
their roof tiles or they're
choosing their home
entertainment system and
they've come back
And it's really nice, actually, you know,
the number of people you
see coming past my desk.
So rewarding.
Oh, it's brilliant.
And you kind of do.
We get quite close to a lot
of our visitors as well.
So a couple of shows back in
January this year, actually,
there was a couple who I'd recognised.
They've been to the centre a few times.
I know they've been on some
of our online workshops that we've run.
and the lady was in tears so
I um sat down at our coffee
shop so I walked over and
said is everything okay yep
look we've just had the
email through we've got
planning permission today
so whilst they were at our
show they had their
planning consent approved
and it I think it was
partly tears of frustration
because planning had not
been easy but also relief
that that's it they got
past that stage they'd been
resilient and persevered
with it and now they could
go on and build their home and it is it's
it's it's a really exciting
thing to be able to share
that journey as you said it
is a journey with people
and and as tom says it is
frustrating that in this
country it is only kind of
ten percent of all new
homes as they're built but
that's still a significant
number and then if you add
on the renovation projects
and we see some you know
really exciting uh
significant renovations as
well uh through the center
that is obviously much
bigger as a market as well
so it's a it's it is always
a kind of hive of activity
Absolutely.
And that's why we loved the
shot that we were going to get here.
I mean, I'm conscious of the time,
so I'm going to go through
some of these points a little bit quicker,
just to give people a
little bit of a tidbit of
information on it.
You mentioned, Tom, about budgets.
Now,
how do people really come up with a
budget if they're not fully
understanding the entirety of a project?
How do they make sure they
understand it properly and
how do they avoid going over budget?
Yeah, great question.
And the latter part of it, of course,
makes, as I said, for a good TV program,
I mentioned those processes
that we put in place.
We have a team who
specifically look after
that early engagement to
help the client calculate the budget.
That's a free service.
Please, those of you listening,
don't pay anyone for that.
We have a team who will
specifically look at your income,
your affordability,
which will allow us to work
out how much they can borrow.
That, along with their savings,
gives us the big pot.
That's the total budget to
deliver either the purchase.
So for those that already own a project,
there's two pots.
which is your professional
fees that Mark touched on
and the construction costs.
For those looking to buy a site,
whether it be a barn or a
renovation or a plot, it's the purchase,
the professional fees and
the build costs.
So let's get the big pot
worked out to start with.
The second stage is ensuring
the build costs are responsible.
It's unfortunately still the
case where people think
that they can build a house
because they've got mates
in the trade at twelve
hundred and fifty pounds a square metre.
The reality is we went
through a pretty difficult
period over the last two
years with an increase in
material costs and a
shortfall in materials,
which just pushed costs up.
So starting with a
responsible set of build
costs and the professionals
and suppliers that are in
the centre permanently can
help the customer with that.
But then building in contingency.
No one sets out to do one of
these projects with
problems in mind or getting it wrong.
We've already touched on
difficult ground conditions.
It was going to go wrong royally.
It's problematic ground
conditions is likely what it is.
But beyond that,
it tends to be a gradual creep.
this is a,
I'm currently sitting in the
house that I built a number of years.
I say I built that spectrum
that Mark spoke about.
I'm a completely,
I can change a light bulb.
So I'm still classed as a self-builder.
I'm probably, I'm at the end where I'm
brought a team of people in
who were really good at it.
And so I didn't make a
complete mess of it.
But I'm classed as a self-builder.
But depending where you are
on that spectrum of DIY to
turnkey fixed price,
it will change the price
and it will change the contingency.
And don't be scared to build
in twenty percent contingency,
because if you don't spend it,
It's not drawn down from the land.
They never pay for it.
It's simply a facility.
So build in contingency.
And what we probably haven't
done justice to the centre,
and what I think is just
the piece de resistance,
is the renovation house.
People go into renovations
and barns because they think, you know,
it's a new kitchen and
bathroom and lucky paint.
And until you unravel the building,
you don't discover it's
hanging together with
cobwebs until you put the
floors up and the walls out.
Definitely you want a bigger
contingency at that end of it.
So the renovation part of
the centre is significant, I think,
and really letting people understand that
build in healthy build costs.
We have a team there that
will guide the customers
through this self-build
journey to ensure that the
costs that they've got are responsible.
And it might just be
signposting things where the builders,
perhaps using PC sums that
might not even be responsible.
If I'm building a three
hundred square meter house,
you're not putting a seven
and a half thousand pound kitchen in it.
So don't put silly numbers in it.
So getting the numbers right
to start with.
And by getting the
professionals to guide them
early in the journey,
then we're often setting
them off with a greater
opportunity to bring it in
the budget and without
major bumps in the road.
There's always going to be challenges.
You know, it's a construction project,
but we can take the big
bumps in the road out by
planning and working with
the right individuals.
And I think setting the budget initially,
you mentioned value engineering.
If the budget's there,
and the architects working
or the package supplier
that might be working within that budget,
there may not be a need to
value engineer.
They may be, you know,
the reason the house
builders build boxes is
it's cheaper to build than
something that's shaped
like an H. So don't let the
design get too complicated
where it's been designed on
the budget to begin with.
Yeah, that's good advice.
And you, I mean,
it comes back to the report.
that's caught up and the
depth that you'll go into
that removes the worst case scenario,
it's like, no, that is the case scenario.
And people then know.
So I mean, people,
I suppose it's part of the
human condition that you're
very optimistic, isn't it?
And that's understandable,
but you do need to be realistic.
I think town planners can
add a lot of value there
because the town planner might know, well,
we know there's bats in
that area or that part of the village,
or we know that there's a
clay substrata soil and so
that we're going to have
percolation problems and so
we need to plan for a sub-scheme.
Or you might, as a town planner,
you might visit the site and say, well,
hold on, there's a problem here.
This tree is obstructing our...
visibility display getting
into the site and that tree
we could drop it now or if
it's owned by a third party
we need to treat it
essentially as if it's
protected and then try and
plan around that and so
planners can give a really
nice overview about a
common issue that I think
happens is where someone
falls in love with building
a house in a particular
part of the site probably
because it has the best
views but that part of the
site may actually be could
for argument's sake be the
best place to put a drainage pump
um but if you don't do that
work beforehand you won't
find that out and if you've
submitted the scheme on um
or got an approval with the
house being in a particular
place and find out you then
have to move it you've got
to go back right through
the planning system to get
that changed and make
amendments so taking the
right advice at the
beginning is where I think
where planners have the
most value and planners are
very good at managing
planning projects you know
we have at any given time
twenty to thirty schemes on
the go simultaneously and
we we have a good feel for
where we think the issues
are going to be and we can
advise accordingly at the
outset we don't always get
it right of course it's a
lot more control
Make no apologies that we've
got vibrant noise outside.
It's brilliant because it's, again,
showing the vibrancy of this place.
They're being fed after the
big conference that they've
got on the go at the moment.
It's brilliant.
I just love this hive of activity.
So if you're wondering if
there's noise in the background,
if you can,
Don't panic.
It's legitimate.
It's supposed to be there.
Conscious of the time again,
but I'm going to go and
don't disappear down a
rabbit hole on me on this one, Mark.
But what is planning
permissions number one
challenge at the moment for
self-builders and what are
the governments doing about this?
Well,
Well, in a nutshell,
I can answer that succinctly, I promise.
So we haven't had a
particularly favourable
couple of years of policy circumstances,
notably since twenty seventeen,
when the government diluted
some of the strong
presumption in favour of
development in the national
planning policy framework.
I won't go into the detail.
but that changed in twenty
seventeen but we've had a
change of government and
this government are very
committed to driving up
housing delivery so they've
set a pretty ambitious
target of about three
hundred thousand a year
nationally it's a we've
seen all most authorities
have about a twenty percent
uh increase in their
housing numbers but
importantly those housing
targets are now fixed
whereas the government the
previous government around
christmas time removed
those targets to make them um
optional, to make them discretionary,
which wasn't at all
politically motivated.
But we all know what
happened with the election.
So the Labour government
have finally drawn the dot
between a stagnant economy
and a housing crisis and
realised that you can solve
two problems at the same
time by just loosening some
of the housing constraint
policies which have really become
a problem when you are
making as many planning
applications as most
planning consultants do,
because often you could
throw a dart into a map of
England and there will be
one or two constraints on there.
What I hope the government
don't do is focus on their
new idea of grey belt,
which is this kind of mediocre
green belt which you might
have heard about in the
press yes that's part of
the solution but that green
belt only covers thirteen
percent of the country so
eighty seven percent of the
country is not in the green
belt so I hope they don't
just myopically focus on
that as being a solution of
panacea for everyone and
instead realize that we
need to have re-engaged
that strong positive
presumption in favor which was in
for those planning nerds out
there that was in paragraph
of the I was going to say
something that's more
family-worthy around that
and they're obviously out
at consultation now so you
can you can view as bedtime
reading the the mppf um as
it stands but I don't need
to read paragraph now
because I know it's paragraph now but
But if you get the point,
the government are aware,
and it's great to hear
politicians at a really
high level talking about
the need to drive up housing numbers,
because for a couple of decades now,
we have simply
underdelivered in this country.
And we've also fundamentally
are about to change the way
we calculate housing needs in an area.
So that's a major shift in
the planning world.
So it used to be based on a kind of
the rate at which houses
were formed the formation
of households and taking a
percentage of that but
instead it's being taken
now on a percentage of the
housing stock and then
adding about one percent a
year onto that which is a
much better way of doing it
and the reason why as we
all know you know house the
formation of a household
has been suppressed by high
housing prices
So if you can't buy a house,
you aren't forming a household,
and therefore it's a
self-perpetuating cycle of
under-delivery of housing
due to the poor numbers
going into the calculation
at the beginning.
So it's great to see that
government are aware of
that and are changing that.
fingers crossed that sounds
promising I know that
harvey and I are really
appreciative of you two uh
joining us as experts and I
hope everybody watching
equally feels the same um
tom coming to you first to
sort of get towards the
wrap-up stage you're
obviously going to be here
um presenting at the show
october eleventh and
twelfth yeah a where can
they find you and b why
should someone come and
listen to your talk what
they're going to gain
Well,
the probably benefits where you're
sitting at the moment,
but directly behind you,
you'll see the build store stand.
And as you enter the,
as you enter the center,
we're just at the right hand side.
I'll be talking each day in
the building theater.
Um,
and I think probably the main benefits
is one understanding the journey.
they'll realize that this
isn't just for the
well-heeled third and
fourth time house mover.
You know,
we build store partner with a
number of lenders
exclusively and have access
to every self-built lender
in the UK as an independent
mortgage broker.
But we've been developing
products now for twenty
five years and we're funded
over thirty thousand projects in the UK.
There's a large build store
town somewhere kicking about.
The key on product design is
to mitigate risk.
You know, it's complicated enough.
And we have now,
all of our lending partners
are now providing us with
guaranteed stage payments.
So either before the stage begins,
you can get the funds in
your bank account for that
appropriate stage,
or if you get perhaps a wee
bit more money to put into the pot,
you can fund the stage,
but you need to make sure
you're getting the money
back after the stage is completed.
then we've got guaranteed
stage payments in arrears.
That's probably one of the
biggest fears that people have.
You know, we've all heard the TV program,
the lender's not giving
them any more money.
It's not that there's not
more money to get,
but we had a lending system
called valuation-based
lending in arrears where
the client funds the stage
and only got money back if
the value of the site increases.
Now,
that's only decided by the Chartered
Institute value when they go on site.
So in many ways,
would I work with a
building contractor who
would only tell me my build
cost when I got to that stage?
No, I wouldn't.
But we had a lending system
that would only tell you
how much money you've got
once you've got to that stage.
You know,
that for many people was too risky.
And for me, certainly,
I would prefer to know what
I got at each stage.
The seminar and the talk
will take them through that
particular model and open
it up to ensuring that it's
not just for the third and
fourth time house mover.
Because with ninety five percent lending,
people with a five percent
deposit could be designing
and building their own home.
We can change the
demographic of who's
actually designing and
building their own home.
they shouldn't be railroaded
into a new build scheme
because they think it's
their only solution.
So the talk will open it up
to more people being able
to do this and having a
better understanding of how
they control the risk in
their budget through the
self-development office
process that Buildstore has in place.
Fabulous.
That sums it up brilliantly.
And Mark,
I'm going to turn and say exactly
the same to you,
is that where can people find you?
What are you up to during
the two days of the show?
And what is someone going to
gain from listening to your talk?
So people should definitely
attend the show.
It's a really good first step.
You've got a critical mass
of all the lenders, of planning experts,
architects, designers,
building system experts.
And you can ask them any questions.
You book slots so you can talk
for twenty minutes about any subject,
any questions you have.
And you can also walk around
and meet all the different
suppliers as well.
So you can spend the entire day here,
attend a couple of different shows.
There's one on the
fascinating subject of town planning.
There's one on town planning.
But there's other ones, isn't there?
Finding plots and building systems, etc.
So I think as a first step,
I can't think of a better
first step for someone even
contemplating and bear in
mind here it's not a quick
process to go from sort of
attending a show to turning
a key that could be a
couple of years you need to
be thinking if you are even
even faintly thinking about
it you should come along to
the show and talk to people
and you'll meet people that
have already done it you'll
inevitably rub shoulders
with people that have done
it or different steps to
you and I've often found
that some clients have got a
been talking to people so an
old client you know might
be someone from a former
client from two or three
years ago is talking to
somebody else from six
months ago to exchange tips
um for further down the
line and you're just not
going to get that um
anywhere else so I think
it's a really good thing to
do for people to come down
and it's family friendly
there's some you know
there's a cafe here as well
um so yeah you should
definitely come down
think I think that's it
chris so in this digital
age so people are watching
this right now it is this
is so valuable to be able
to be online and engage you
know quickly with people
but there is something
really special um and
important about engaging
people face to face you
know physically and having
those conversations and hearing those
little bits of information
from someone that's that's
done it before is so
invaluable and also the
thing in the in the trade
village behind us where
we've got kind of over two
hundred exhibitors with all
the products that you would
need you know from floors
uh doors solar panels heat pumps
You can do all your research online,
but it is so important to come and touch,
feel it, see them working,
check the colours.
I mean, we're in the Scott Frame House.
I mean, Tom mentioned the Renovation House,
which is this amazing
exhibit that we have here.
We're in the Scott Frame House,
which is an example of a
timber frame home.
It's great to be able to
come and get some inspiration,
even if you think, actually,
that's not what we want,
but that's given us an idea
that we want this instead.
We're surrounded by
different door examples up here,
ironmongery.
There's no substitute for
touching and cleaning materials,
particularly this.
particularly if they're
cladding and things like that.
Yeah,
it's very different just looking at
pictures on a website.
I think actually being able
to see it live is quite special.
But I think one of the other
things that is important to
me for this facility is
that there are ideas out
there you haven't had yet.
You know,
you said about it's all very well
doing your research on the internet,
but you can wander around going,
I've seen several things.
I was like, I did not know that that was.
Yeah.
I mean, I bought a few different products,
which I would never have
heard about if it wasn't coming down.
It's priceless for that,
which is why I'm looking
forward to it because we're live.
through the first day as well.
We'll be over in the, what do you call it,
the Dale House.
The Dale House, yeah,
next door to my office.
It will be, yes.
Keep the noise down.
I'll find myself just down
behind us in the main square area.
Well, you'll get clobbered at some point.
Maybe up for an interview,
because we'll be running a
number of interviews through the day,
but we're also roaming.
We're going to go wandering
with a portable camera and
catching up with some of
the exhibitors and the
attendees and everything.
That will be on the Friday
and hopefully that means
that there will be people
back home that will know I
really need to be at this
and you've still got the
ability to get tickets for
the Saturday as well.
I think it's worthwhile
Harvey also highlighting
those at the very early
stage that we've touched about in
various questions,
is the fact that plot
search is based within the centre.
So those who are at that
point of actually looking for land,
there's a permanent plot
search centre with live plots there.
They might find their dream
project if I was in the centre.
Right, I need to pick up on that then,
and I will.
I know I was attempting to wrap up there,
but I didn't know that that was here.
And we were supposed to
touch on that a bit more,
but we kind of ran out of time.
And I wanted to leave you
guys with enough to talk
about on the days anyway.
So what's this?
So within the build store space,
there is a, as Thomas says,
there's a plot search.
So it's a free online
service that builds store office.
You could offer, you can subscribe to it,
but a bit like if you
imagine an estate agent's window,
you can actually come to
the center and browse live
plots that are available.
You know, today, the day of the show with,
with, with outline.
Yeah.
Everything has permission.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It won't be on the site if
it doesn't have planning permission.
So,
There's plots, barns for conversion,
houses for renovation, custom build.
There's something for
everyone right across the UK.
wow and I think that's tom
mentioned this right at the
beginning actually so a
plot doesn't necessarily
need to be this perfect
little parcel of field it
could be an existing
property you know because
with a large side garden or
a small house on a big plot
yeah exactly so um I say we
run a whole one day course
on finding land and then
appraising whether it is a
plot or not as we touched
on earlier so um yeah
there's there'll be plenty
of people here during both
days of the show that will
be able to kind of guide you through that
and help you understand what
your options are.
Yeah.
And another thing,
just to really quickly mention,
I find it really
frustrating when you go to
shows at some of the big
arenas and you get charged
like twelve pounds,
eighteen pounds to park your car.
It is free parking at the same time.
We get so much feedback saying,
please keep your parking
free because otherwise it's kind of, oh,
it's free tickets,
but it's going to cost you
eighteen quid to park your
car for the day.
free parking and we've got
eight ev charging points
here in the center as well
it's good to know yeah
fabulous no I mean it is
good so remember that's the
eleventh and twelfth of
october we'll be live from
here on the eleventh friday
saturday yeah yeah yeah
we'll be here on the friday
not suddenly giving you
everything that means you
don't need to come here I
can assure you it's not
that we're just going to
catch up with a few more
interviews uh during the
course of today like after
someone's given a talk for
example just the catch-up of how it went
chat around the place so you
can get a feel for the vibe
that's here which is really
exciting I can't wait for
that but before that we've
got episode three coming up
and that's on tuesday the
first of october uh and our
subject there that we're
focusing on is heat and energy yeah
So one of the most popular topics, really,
so probably every other
question that we get asked
at our help desk is about heating options,
renewable technologies,
how to improve the energy
efficiency of a home.
So we've got Clarissa from
Total Home Environment.
She's going to be talking
about ventilation and
getting the air quality and
control in a home exactly right,
because that can have a big
impact in terms of
your your energy consumption
and also the comfort uh of
living being a kind of hay
fever sufferer in in the
spring summer time totally
you know get the benefit of
clarissa's system
clarissa's um business have
been an exhibitor at the center since
the day we opened, so she knows the centre,
she knows the type of
people that come in and the
problems that they're faced with,
so she's going to be really great.
And then we've got Rob Bone coming back,
who was here for the first
episode for everyone that watched that.
So Rob is an independent
heat and energy consultant
working for a project management company,
but he also, like Mark,
presents some of our
courses that we run here
and spends some of his time
on our help desk as well.
And he's an MC for some of
the a bit wider events as well.
He is, yeah.
So he's got a really great
expanse of knowledge that
he's here to share with everyone.
That's brilliant.
Plus we'll have,
I think we've got Katie and
Nick that will be joining
us that one as well.
Just having a little look at
the timetable.
So you're talking where you
two guys are chatting there
or presenting there, I should say,
is we'll have a look
through some of the
highlights of the timetable
and really get people.
So if you are,
either you're getting
excited about covering the
show or you're still unsure,
tune in on Tuesday the first,
two weeks time yesterday.
We're on Wednesday today, aren't we?
Yeah.
Two weeks yesterday.
Tune in.
We'll be looking at some of
the highlights about it and
getting really excited
about the live show.
Before we go then, Tom,
any final words from you, my friend?
No, I think...
We've touched on some really
key parts today,
but I think the biggest
thing is just to encourage
people to come along to the centre,
take advantage of the
wealth of independent
expertise that's in there.
No matter what stage you're at,
even if you've started your
project at that early stage,
Come along and don't be put
off by the doubters.
People will think that,
try and put you off,
that this is a stretch too far.
Trust me, if I can do this,
then any of you can do this.
And the centre's the perfect
place to gather the
knowledge and the support
that you require.
Yeah, I second that, Tom.
I think it's a really good
day because you're meeting
all the right people.
And you can't do that online
in the same way.
And that comment about don't
listen to the doubters,
sometimes that's your own voice as well.
And it's good to get those
answers put to bed, isn't it?
Yeah.
And you are not going to get sold to.
That is not the environment
or the ethos of the centre here.
So we touched on in the first episode,
we're an employee-owned team.
The guys and girls that run
the centre love what we do.
We love meeting people.
And it is not a kind of hard
sell environment at all.
It's the complete opposite.
You will just find people who are friendly,
willing to offer their experience,
their advice, their knowledge.
And they hear it all the time.
People saying, actually,
I'm not going to be able to help you.
Let me go and introduce you
to this person.
Yeah.
We often get asked questions about,
you know,
there might be mechanical heat
ventilation recovery
systems and we always send
them over to Clarissa and
she often gets asked,
do I need permission on a
listed building for this type of thing?
So there's a lot of
interaction actually
between the different companies.
But it really would help
people get the most out of
the day with a little bit of preparation,
thinking about what they
want to get out of it,
who they want to meet,
and what systems or
services they're looking for.
That can be really helpful.
And bring any,
if you've even sketched some things down,
even if you're embarrassed by them.
If you own land and bring along a plan,
that's really helpful.
Now,
and if you don't make sure you get to
build store and find the
plots that are available.
I'm really excited about
that one to be honest with you.
Just a bit of preparation to
get the most out of the day.
Love it.
And don't panic if you're pre that stage,
it's still a great place to
come to start getting
yourself into some of that planning.
There's going to be people
at all sorts of stages.
Gentlemen,
Harvey, Mark, Tom,
thank you so much for joining us, guys.
I appreciate your time.
Hope the viewers have as well.
Thank you for those that
have been watching.
I've been seeing that we've
had some good numbers of
you tuning in across the
different platforms.
It's available to watch back, of course.
We've just done this live.
This is a visual PR production,
which is my company,
and I host these things.
And the ethos is that this
has been a free flowing conversation.
There's no script.
There's nothing's been edited or censored.
This is these guys using their expertise,
much to Mark's target.
And he was a bit stressed
before we started because I
was putting the pressure on you.
You had to remember everything.
But it's off of everybody's
the top of their head.
So you know this is
legitimate assistance that
we're providing to you.
Tune in two weeks time, Tuesday,
the first of October, midday.
We'll be back.
And as I said,
it is this time about heat and energy.
And we'll see you then.
Cheers all.
Bye.
Thank you, everyone.