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Continues the interview with Dr. Moojan Momen on the contributions of the early Persian Baha'is to the rise of Iran's first democratic institutions.
Explores the application of Baha'i principles towards society building.
Society builders pave the way to
a better world, to a better day
A united to building a new society.
Join conversation.
For Social Transformation. Society Builders
Society Builders with
your host, Duane Varan.
Welcome to Society Builders and
thanks for joining the conversation
for social transformation.
Our last episode was the first part
of a two-part series exploring how
Abdul-Baha interacted with social
discourses of His day around the
topic of governance reform in Iran.
For these two episodes,
we've been listening to Dr.
Dr. Moojan Momen, one of the world's
leading authorities on the history
of the early Persian Baha'i community.
In part one, Dr. Momen
provided us with the background
and context to a series of books
written by Abdul-Baha, specifically
engaging with this governance discourse.
He explained how corruption was
rife and how Iran was in desperate
need for governance reform, largely
responding to the challenges and
opportunities associated with modernity.
Specifically, we explored two books
written anonymously by Abdul-Baha.
The first, the 'Secret of Divine
Civilization' explores the need for a wide
range of reforms, but frames this within
the context of this idea of governance
with integrity, that without a moral
and ethical framework, even the best
intended reforms will ultimately fail.
His second book, a 'Treatise on Politics',
which hasn't yet been transited into
English, was written in response to
the specific circumstances surrounding
the Tobacco Rebellion of 1891.
And here, Abdul-Baha provides warnings
of the dangers of clerical rule
in Iran, calling for a separation
of church and state, so to speak.
Now I'm not doing this last
episode justice in providing
you with this short summary.
So if you haven't heard it, I would
encourage you to listen to it before
you start today's episode because it
provides the background and context you
need to understand today's discussion.
So today we're going to listen to
part two of my interview with Dr.Momen
exploring the response from the
Baha'i community to the Guidance which
Abdul-Baha provided around governance
reform, how these early Persian Baha'i
believers responded and engaged in
society building in their time, and
what impact this ultimately had on the
society around it, including in the rise
of Iran's first democratic institutions.
But we'll also explore a key shift, a
key pivot for the community following
Abdul-Baha's advice to disengage in what
had become a highly divisive political
and contentious debate, how the early
Persian believers then shifted their focus
away from this kind of political reform
to social reform through the emergence
of the Baha'i schools and health clinics.
It's an incredibly exciting chapter,
so you're in for a real treat!
Now, Moojan jan.
In our last episode, you gave us the
background and context to the second
book of Abdul-Baha, which we've been
discussing. His 'Treatise on Politics'.
Now, I guess Abdul-Baha's Treatise
really speaks to two different
eras in this reform process.
Certainly there's the time
immediately after the Tobacco
Rebellion, from that period around
1891 to the turn of the century.
But then there's also that period
approaching the emergence of Iran's
first democratic institutions,
in that window between 1906 and 1908.
And a lot changes between those two
time periods. And the Baha'i community's
engagement with these issues changes
during those two time periods.
How did Baha'i interaction with this
discourse change over that period?
Momen: Well, during the 1890s and the early
1900s, there was a great amount of
debate going on within Iranian society
about this issue of reform, about what
to do, about the problems that Iran
faced, and the issues that were being
debated by the reformers matched many
of the Baha'i teachings. For example, the
importance of education, the advancement
of women, democracy, and so forth.
So there was a match between what
the reformers were saying and
what the Baha'i teaching said.
And in some places in Iran, Baha'is
actually became leaders of this debate.
The, the discussion that was going on.
And, and, and in some cases,
some of the leaders of the reform
debate actually became Baha'is.
So there was a, a lot of
intermingling going on there.
And throughout the whole of
Iran, there was a swelling
of, of this call for reform and it was
uniting all elements of Iranian society.
So everyone was calling for reform and
the momentum built up until there was
this, what was called the Constitutional
Revolution in 1906 to 07, during
which the Shah caved into the demands
for reform and a agreed to there
being a, a Constitution, creating a
a, a democratic form of government.
During this time, Abdul-Baha became
increasingly concerned about
the direction that events were
taking, particularly after the
Constitution was put in place in 1907.
And there were several reasons for this.
The most important, I think, was
the fact that before the granting
of the Constitution, as I say, the
whole country was united, the reform
movement was a bringing together
of all elements of, of society.
But once the Constitution was
granted, this unity fell apart
and conflicting factions
arose, and particularly some of
the religious leaders began to call
for a sharia-based Constitution.
In other words, a sharia based laws.
In other words, the, this new constitution
and, and the laws that will
be created under the Constitution
should be based on the sharia.
So there was that faction.
Then just at the time when the
Constitution was granted, the old
Shah passed away and a new Shah came
to power and he wanted to seize back
some of the power that had been taken
from the Shah in the Constitution.
So there was him.
And he gathered a faction around
himself and he actually joined
up with the clerics so that they
became, in effect, one faction.
Although there was obviously
a fundamental contradiction
between the Shah wanting to get
powers back to himself and the clerics who
wanted a Sharia based constitutional law.
And in effect, they, they became
the sort of determiners of governance.
And even among the
reformers, there was some
disagreements with someone sort of
pushing to the extreme and some saying,
'no, we, we have to keep moderate.
We want to keep everyone with us.
If we push to the extremes, we will
lose the backing of the population.'
So the whole of the, the unity
of, of the movement fell apart.
So that was one factor.
The second factor was that Abdul-Baha
became concerned that if the reforms
were seen as Baha'i inspired, if the
Baha'is became too prominent in the
Reform movement, people would attack the
Reform movement as being Baha'i inspired.
And this would be used to
discredit the Reform movement.
And so he was
concerned about this and, and, and
wanted the Baha'is to just hold back
a little bit on, on their advocacy.
Later
He also, because once the unity of
the reform movement started to fall apart,
He could see that the Baha'is were going to
be used as sort of pawns in the middle.
Each side was accusing the other
side of being Baha'is and Baha'i
inspired. So the reformers were saying that
the royalists, the, the supporters of
the Shah, were Baha'is and Baha'i inspired,
and that Shah and his supporters were
saying that the reformers were Baha'is.
Baha'i inspired and, and the whole
Reform movement was actually a
promulgation of Baha'i teachings.
So the Baha'is was going to get caught
in the middle of all of this and, and
would be persecuted by both sides.
So that was another concern of Abdul-Baha's.
And the third concern of Abdul-Baha
was the involvement of the, as Azalis
in the whole process of reform.
The Azalis were followers of Azal
who, as you know, was the
was the half brother of Baha'u'llah who
claimed leadership of the Babi
movement after the Bab, and who had
refused to acknowledge Baha'u'llah's claim
to be He who God shall make Manifest,
the, the figure that the Bab had
foretold, would, would appear.
And so these as Azalis were opposed, were,
were very much enemies of the Baha'is
and were were plotting always to try
and do some harm to the Baha'is and they
played a very important part in the.
Constitutional revolution
in, in the Reform movement.
They, they were, some of the leaders
of the Reform movement were either
themselves Azalis or had been
strongly influenced by the Azalis.
So there was this element also in
the reform movement that was causing
problems for the Baha'is and Abdul-Baha
became increasingly concerned about this
matter and once the unity of the movement
had fractured in 1907, very early in 1907,
Abdul-Baha began to advise the Baha'is to
withdraw from the whole political process;
to to disengage from this and to focus on
the social reforms. In other words, to withdraw
from the political process, but to
remain engaged with social reform.
So the Baha'is focused increasingly
on education, on building up
schools, on the advancement of
women, on building health facilities.
They that this time started to
build health clinics and, and try
to bring modern medicine to Iran.
They built modern baths to replace the
stinking unhygienic public baths that
were available in Iran at that time,
and replaced them with modern public
baths, with showers and, and cleanliness.
And they began to
elect their governing bodies, the
administrative councils that eventually
became the, the local assemblies.
They began to elect these,
and so therefore push
forward the idea of democracy.
So they, they were still engaged in the
reform process, but not in the political
aspects of the reform process, which was
becoming increasingly fractious and, and
the source of huge conflict in society.
Varan: That must have been a huge challenge
for the Baha'i community of the day.
I mean, navigating that transition
from being engaged with the political
reform process, you know, and then
when Abdul-Baha, of course, sees
that that process is derailing and
and advises the community
to disengage with it.
I mean, it's remarkable how
well the community did do that.
I mean, you have really very few
exceptions of seeing the Baha'i community
really shift, you know, in obedience to
this, this guidance from Abdul-Baha.
But it must have been
a difficult challenge.
I mean, they must have been very
excited by seeing the changes
that were starting to occur.
And then of course, they, they
had to navigate that transition
away from what was this disunifying
process that was in motion.
Momen: Yes, I think it was
very confusing initially, at any rate,
both for the Baha'is and also for the
reformers because they had seen the
Baha'is promulgating the same ideas that
they were promulgating and they couldn't
understand why now the Baha'is were
sort of withdrawing from the process.
So it was confusing for them as well.
And we have instances in, in Shiraz
and, and other places where that these
the leading reformers in the city
who sort of come to the Baha'is and
say, you know, 'what are you doing?
Why, why, why are you doing this?'
And so forth.
And there, there were undoubtedly a
few Baha'is who, well put it this way,
it was difficult to get this message
out across the whole community.
You have to understand, you know,
The means of communication
were very poor in those days.
So there were individual Baha'is
who, who continued to be engaged
in the political process and
who, you know, were unhappy to
to withdraw completely, but
they were a very small minority.
You could probably count less than
five people who continued to be
prominent in the reform process.
After Abdul-Baha had issued these
instructions, most of the Baha'is did
comply and did withdrawal from politics.
And although it was very hard initially in
retrospect, one can see that it was necessary.
Some writers have claimed that the
Baha'is, by withdrawing from politics,
missed out on the chance of leading the
pro political process of being an
influential factor in Iranian society.
But in retrospect, we can see that it
was the right thing to have done because
to have become engaged in this fractious
political process, it would've been
to endorse and become immersed in the.
In that process, which was so competitive,
so divisive, so fractious, that process
was becoming increasingly fractious in
Iran as indeed it is in many parts of
the world, and it would've meant buying
into and helping to perpetrate the
sort of hierarchical social structures
that we see today are
demonstrably falling apart.
Neither the political process nor
the social structure that that Baha'is
would've been endorsing, if they
had entered the political process,
was the sort of thing that Baha'ullah
and Abdul-Bahar had had in mind.
It wasn't the mission of Bahaa
and Abdul Baha to be reinforcing
that failing system and
Abdul-Baha rightly perceived that
the right thing to do was to withdraw
from that in order to build an
alternative that Baha'is needed to
disengage from the political process.
Otherwise, it would've sucked them in
and subverted them, and they needed to
disengage from that in order to build
a new type of society in which
leadership wasn't with individuals.
Whether you're talking about
religious leadership or political
leadership, it wasn't with individuals.
It was through consultative
processes, collective decision making,
collaboration rather than competition.
All of these things that we
now realize are part of the
community building process could
not have occurred if the Baha'is had
remained within that highly fractious,
highly competitive political process.
The Baha'is needed to disengage from the
political process in order to advance
their true aims, which was to build a
radically different type of society.
Varan: You can see this modern parallel,
I think with the struggles of what
some of the Baha'i believers must have
felt at that time, you know, seeing
the influence of the Faith in this
reform process, but then seeing its,
its, its limitations and, and,
and, and being caught in that struggle.
And you can see some modern
parallels with Baha'is who may feel
like, you know, the, the society around
us needs us and there are ways that we
can contribute. But by the same token,
the political processes are just so
wrong, and you can see how that same
kind of problem exists even today.
So there, there is a lesson there in
the example which Abdul-Baha provides,
which I think has a very modern
parallel for Baha'i communities today.
Momen: Yes.
I think that's the, the big lesson
that you can draw from all of
the discussion we've been having.
That, that, first of all, Abdul-Baha's
treatise, the, the Secret of Divine
Civilization is just as relevant today as
it was when it was first written in 1875.
We're still struggling
with this issue of, of the
values and, and what should be the
sort of fundamental values of our
society and, and from where are
we going to draw those values and
the role of religion in society.
All of these discourses that Abdul
Baha enters on in that treaties
are still relevant today, are
still very much needed today.
And we can draw a lot of inspiration
from what Abdul-Baha wrote about in
that book of, of you can't just have.
Political
or even social reforms.
You've also got to have the individuals
transformed in order for those
reforms to, to work, in order to
have real social progress, in order
to have communities, united
communities that are progressing.
So all of those sort of issues
that He talks about are important.
We can see today the importance,
particularly in Iran of His call
for religious leaders not to get
involved in the political process and
how disasterous it it is for a country
if religious leaders start to involve
themselves in politics. And we can see
the importance of his call for the Baha'is
to disengage from politics because it's
so divisive because it's so
competitive, because it's the very
antithesis of the sort of society
that Baha'is are trying to build, which
should be based on consultation and
collaboration and unity rather than the
divisiveness, which a present day
political system in every part of
the world creates. This increasing
polarization of the community, the, the,
fractious and, and heated nature
of the debates that go on and the way
they degenerate into just name calling
and, and personal attacks and so on.
All of these things
we're going on in Iran at the time
that Abdul-Baha called for the Baha'is to
disengage from the political process.
And they're going on today.
And for exactly the same reasons, Baha'is
need to keep outta that political process
and concentrate on community building,
society building, and the sort of
general Plans that, that the Universal
House of Justice is setting before us
as a way of creating an alternative that
people can turn to as they increasingly
see that the answers are not gonna come
outta the political processes that are
going on in their, in their societies.
Varan: So just, wrapping up today,
what impact do you think
these, these various forms of
guidance that Abdul-Baha provided across
the Secret of Divine Civilization,
you know, this Treatise on Politics
and and and His other Council.
What impact do you think that
ultimately had on Iranian society?
Well, it's, it's very difficult to
say because, as I said, Abdul-Baha
published, both treatises were
published anonymously, so the impact
was not to advance knowledge of the
Baha'i Faith directly and indirectly.
We know people who read these
treatises, but we don't know what.
Impact it had on them.
They were published, they
were circulated there
and because they'd been published
anonymously, they could be freely
circulated among individuals in society.
So the Baha'is were handing them out to
influential people, particularly
those people who were engaged in the
debate on social and political reform.
So all of that was going
on, but, but we, we have.
Very specific examples of ways in which
it may be that the, that the Baha'i
teachings were influencing the reformers.
For example, in the early stages of the
Constitutional revolution, one of
the demands of the reformers was that
in every town and village, an
Edelat Khaneh should be established.
Now Edelat Khaneh literally translated means
House of Justice. The Baha'is
use the Arabic term Beyt-ol-Ahd, but
it's just the Persian for Beyt-ol-Ahd.
So these reformers were calling
for each village and town to have
a house of justice, to be the
place where every individual
could go to for justice.
Now, you know, where had
they got that idea from?
It was, you know, it hadn't
come out of thin air.
They had obviously been talking to Baha'is,
they'd been reading the Baha'i Writings.
They had seen this concept
that Baha'u'llah had introduced
in that and in others of His
Writings and they had thought, 'well,
this is a good idea'. And they put it, and
they were putting it forward as part of
their program, as part of their agenda.
Varan: you can't have a lot
of debate about House of
Justice being Baha'i terminology.
That's clearly, clearly
Baha'i terminology for sure.
Momen: Yeah, yeah.
So, so, you know, we've got
evidence, but, but, but you know,
how extensive it was and so on.
It's, it's impossible to say.
I think we can continue to collect
evidence and get, get, gain a better and
better understanding as time goes by.
But at this stage of any rate of
our research is, I don't think
anyone can say, definitively, how
widespread the influence of these?
Well, we know the influence of the
ideas was widespread, but you know
what it effect it actually had
on what was being said and done.
I don't know.
I don't think we can say specifically,
Varan: Of course the influence of the
community - of the Baha'i community,
you know, there are, there are some
really very particular dimensions
to that, particularly I think
two areas which, which stand out.
One is the inclusion of women
in the national discourse, which
really was a very unique kind of
Baha'i contribution, if you will.
And the other is the participation
of the regional areas in Iran.
I mean, a lot of the reformers, of
course, would've been having these
debates in Tehran, but it was the Baha'i
community that really helped make that
a national discourse rather than, you
know, the discourse of a community.
Could you, could you talk about
those two particular strands
of, of the reform movement?
Momen: Yes.
I, I think the Feform movement was
really a very small number of individuals
who were talking mainly in Tehran, but
also there were, there were groups of
reformers here in all of the major cities,
but, but only the larger cities and.
As I've said, they, they, they
were talking to the Baha'is.
The Baha'is were part of the movement.
The conversations were going on.
For example, we know in Esfahan, the
reformers were actually meeting in the
home of the leading Baha'i of Esfahan.
So his home was the
center of the reform debate.
In Sari, all of the leaders
of the - that's the capital
of the province of Mazandaran -
all of the leaders of the
reform movement, but almost all of the
leaders of the reform movement were Baha'is
and, and they were, they opened up a, a
library in the town where people
could go and read the reformed newspapers
that were being published and, and
discuss the issues that were being raised.
So, The Baha'is were very active. But
what the Baha'is were doing, which the
reformers had no ability to do, was to
also take this debate down to the level
of the small towns and the villages
of Iran, because the same teachings
of the advancement of women, the
importance of education and so on,
were being also promulgated by the Baha'is
and the small towns in, in the villages.
And these reformers, they were
intellectuals who were in the large
towns, but they had no, they, they
couldn't reach to the smaller towns and
villages and promulgate these teachings
across such a, a wide area of Iran.
So it was the Baha'is who were
taking that debate to the small
towns and villages in, in Iran.
And among the teachings
that they they were
promulgating, as you've mentioned,
is, is the advancement of women.
This was something that, it was
certainly mentioned in the, in the
writings of some of the reformers.
Not so much in the early phase in
the sort of 1860s and 70s and
80s, but as we come closer to the
time of the Constitutional Revolution
and, you do start to see this hit.
In the debate among the
reformers, but again, it was the Baha'is
who were sort of at the forefront of
this and, and were leading the debate
in respect to the, the advancement
of women in, in society, that there
were some prominent women among these
people who were debating this matter
who were Baha'is. Tahereh khanoom, in
Tehran for example, was writing
articles in the reform newspapers
and journals and, and she was very
prominent in, in the discourse
that was going on in, in Tehran.
So, so there were individual women
who were taking this forward and there
are lots of other ways in which the.
Baha'is were taking this forward, for
example, by building schools for girls.
And the example of of some of
the American Baha'i women who actually
came to Iran, settled in Iran and helped
the Baha'is both to build schools and
to build medical facilities in Tehran.
They're, they're very
presence in Iran
was was a model for Iranians
to look at and see that yes,
it was possible for women to
play an active role in society, to
be educated, to mix freely with
men without corrupting the morals
of, of, of society and so on.
So, the, the Baha'is were sort
of, as it were, exemplifying the
sort of thing that the rest of
Iranian society could, could achieve.
Varan: That's fantastic.
Just as, as, as we're saying this, Moojan,
I think it has such an interesting,
has such interesting implications for
today, you know, and the
discourse, the national discourse in Iran
today around the role of women. And, you
know, you see this influence that the
community had really in, in the origins
of this debate in Iranian society.
Momen: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's something that, that Iranians
themselves are increasingly recognizing
that the Baha'is have been written out
of Persian's history to a large extent.
They've been sort of completely ignored,
but just in the last 10 years or so,
people have started to look
back and say, 'yes, the Baha'is
were actually quite important.
They did play a role, they were
contributing to society' and,
starting to look at these histories
and reassess the role of,
of Baha'is in Iranian history.
So I think that that
is starting to happen.
There's a long way to
go still, but it is starting.
Varan: Thanks again for joining us
today, Moojan Jon, it was such
an enlightening experience.
Momen: Well, thank you for inviting me.
Tt's been a pleasure.
Varan: Before closing today, I think it
would be good for us to reflect a
bit on the amazing history that Dr. Momen
has shared with us across these
two episodes, because there's so
many things we can learn from it that
have direct implications for today.
First, of course, is the whole
idea of governance with integrity.
I think people worldwide feel
this need now more than ever.
It's what is most lacking in our
political institutions of the day.
Second is the history of the rise of
Iran's first democratic institutions
and the influence that the early
Baha'i community had in this evolution.
This is clear in the vocabulary of the
movement, referring to representative
bodies, for example, as Houses of Justice.
It's clear in the reform agenda.
And it was the Baha'i community that truly
made this a national discourse reaching
even small towns and villages rather than
limiting it to the capitol and to a few
major cities where these intellectual
reformers were debating their ideas.
So it's Baha'is who take it from
being an intellectual discourse
to a national discourse.
So here too, we see that
in their society building initiatives
around governance reform, the
early Persian believers had
impact, even if we can't map the
exact extent of this influence.
Third, we see the integration of
a discourse on the advancement
of women weaving its way into the
reform process, primarily as a
direct result of the engagement of
the early Persian Baha'i community.
This takes on a particular significance,
I think, today where the question of
the rights of women has taken center
stage in Iran, so it's remarkable,
particularly in this context, to understand
that the genesis of this discourse around
the rights of women in Iran can be traced
back to the effort of these early Baha'is
in their society building initiatives.
Fourth, we can see Abdul-Baha's
warnings about the consequences to the
progress of the nation if governance
is facilitated by Iran's clerics.
This, I think, is truly prophetic.
Now, the Iranian Revolution gives
us the opportunity to test
Abdul-Baha's assertion here today.
The clerics do rule Iran.
They have
for over 40 years, and I'll leave
it to you to weigh its consequences
for the progress of the nation, the
effect this has had on the human
rights of its citizens, on its material
progress, on the state of its natural
resources, on the rights of women, on
Iran's global standing and reputation.
I mean, I'll leave it to you to draw your
own conclusions, but it does allow us
to clearly test Abdul-Baha's assertion.
So here too, we see how incredibly
relevant this warning from
Abdul-Baha was even a hundred years later.
And finally, and perhaps most important,
I think this pivot of the community
in disengaging with the political
reforms once these movements became
so divisive, has important lessons
for the Baha'i communities of today.
It's hard being a Baha'i and seeing
so much injustice all around you.
It's always tempting to want to
join in the protests of the day,
working to bring justice by seeking
to punish the aggressor, removing
governments engaging in such injustice.
But as hard as it is, it's
important for us to understand
that this is not our role.
We uphold principles, but we're not in
the business of opposing governments,
even those that persecute us, and this
is often a difficult path for us to walk.
We'll discuss this more
in future episodes.
But for now, just put yourself in the
position of these early believers.
They're seeing the ideas they've
been advocating for, suddenly finding
widespread acceptance, and they must
have been incredibly eager to engage
with the social action of the day.
But Abdul-Baha advised against this.
He asked the believers to disengage as
the process had become too divisive.
And the community, in obedience, shifted its
focus from political to social reforms.
There's a lesson for us in
this example, and it's a lesson
that's incredibly timely.
We'll all be challenged trying to
figure out how to navigate through
the social issues of the day without
being consumed by them and by still
maintaining our unifying framework.
Again, this is a topic we're gonna
explore much more fully in future
episodes, but for now, let's just look
to and admire the historical example we
see in these early Persian believers.
So we've learned a great deal across
the course of these two episodes.
In our next episodes, we're going
to continue our dialogue with
Dr. Moojan Momen, but this time we'll be
focusing on the social reforms in Iran.
That followed primarily focusing on
the evolution of Baha'i schools in Iran.
It's a remarkable story, perhaps
our best example of society building
yet in the history of our Faith.
So I'm sure that it's a history
that will truly inspire you.
So thanks again to Dr. Momen
and thank you for joining us today.
Don't miss our next exciting
episode of Society Builders.
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The Baha'i Faith has a lot to say.
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Now the time has come to lift our game and apply the teachings of the Greatest Name and rise to meet the glory of our destiny.
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