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Welcome to Quirky Podcast, where I reconnect with inspiring individuals from my circle and beyond to explore their unique journeys. This podcast isn’t just about talking to the elite 1% but about connecting with relatable people who’ve found success on their own terms. Through these conversations, I hope to uncover insights and advice that can resonate with anyone navigating their own path. Whether you're seeking inspiration, guidance, or just an engaging story, you’ll find it here.
Join us as we explore the diverse paths to success, share a few laughs, and spark meaningful conversations. Don’t forget to subscribe, engage, and be part of the conversation!
speaker-0 (00:01.614)
There's always something new to be learned. There's always a different perspective on things and so by mentoring you're facilitating your own personal growth.
speaker-1 (00:10.536)
It's a job. Yeah, and there's not a lot of dialogue nowadays about it's okay to not feel passionate about what you do. Sure. It's a means to an end. Yeah, it doesn't mean that you were are in the wrong field.
speaker-0 (00:24.11)
Once you take that next step forward, you're in.
speaker-1 (00:27.446)
It's like the step before you're an adult, but like the full adulting process.
speaker-0 (00:34.638)
There's a reason why so many attorneys either have health problems early or they have addiction problems.
speaker-1 (00:43.032)
Welcome to another episode of Q's Quirky Podcast. I sat down with Andy Prochnow, one of my favorite people we met during law school and became fast friends. This interview is wide ranging and touches on many issues. You will understand how he is pragmatic and grounded and how he is a rock for everyone around him. Sit back and enjoy and see what makes Andy an amazing father, husband and superhuman. Long time.
speaker-0 (01:10.53)
you
speaker-1 (01:12.62)
Cheers to Nick.
speaker-0 (01:16.334)
Toneka.
speaker-1 (01:20.318)
So I've been wanting to interview for a while. Let me wipe off that scotch off my lip. And one of reasons that I started this little situation we're sitting here for is to reconnect with friends. Now I've made an impact on me in my life and to not only reconnect with them, but to distill some nuggets that
they have imparted on me and I hope they can impart on the two or three people that will tune into this. Hopefully it's more than that. But one of the things that drew me to you was you were always the person that was wise beyond your years. And I think some of that came from your father. And when I met your father, I instantly
speaker-0 (01:59.555)
you
speaker-0 (02:09.133)
you
speaker-1 (02:17.624)
connected with Nick and we'll get into that. But I wanna start from there. So give me a thumbnail sketch of your background. Does not be super long. And then we'll jump into some people that kind of formed who you are. So let's go from there.
speaker-0 (02:37.326)
Born and raised in Long Beach, California, although now I'm Seal Beach, just next door. Oldest of three kids. Mom and dad were married for quite a while until my dad passed away last year. I'm sorry, two years ago now.
So he went to St. Bosco High School, went to USC for my undergrad, went to law school with you. Went to law school with you at Santa Clara. Yeah. Kept the same letters. And yeah, I'm a commercial, commercial real estate and corporate attorney transactions. I've got three beautiful kids. I've got a lovely wife of almost 10 years and.
speaker-1 (03:06.44)
the other SC.
speaker-1 (03:25.55)
Man, flies. I think we were off camera and I was reminiscing about how we used to go to... What was that bar we used to go to in Santa Clara, the Hut? And what was the Thursday night bar? don't know. Yeah, time flies, man. Yeah, a long time ago. Now we're sitting here watching your kids bounce around the house and you're just kind of counting like where did time go?
speaker-0 (03:27.245)
speaker-0 (03:36.526)
Mm-hmm.
on
It was a long time ago.
speaker-0 (03:53.163)
Yeah, your priorities change, kids give you a chance to impart a little wisdom downstream.
speaker-1 (04:00.992)
Yeah, so tell me like a little bit about your background and what led you to go from SC. I know you were a letterman in SC. Your journey from SC to law school and then give us a thumbnail sketch into your time as an attorney. Sure.
speaker-0 (04:22.754)
Well, in school, was kind of a science nerd. thought I wanted to be a chemist until I realized what chemists do. Thought it was just mixing chemicals in the background. And then at SC, I was actually pre-med because I wanted to go into medicine. And I was pre-med for about two and a half years and then had a, we'll call it sort of a mid college crisis.
speaker-1 (04:32.654)
There's equations involved.
speaker-0 (04:47.446)
slash epiphany and decided that I didn't want to wait until I was in my 40s to actually start making a living. Yeah, still love science, still passionate about it, but made a pivot to law, took a couple of law, undergrad law classes at SC and thought, this is interesting. You still get to use your brain. You still get to
speaker-1 (04:54.305)
Yeah, you don't want to be a deaf forever.
speaker-0 (05:12.002)
You know, still get to argue a little bit and I always had a little argumentative streak in me. My high school chemistry teacher saw that quite a bit when I'd go and point out errors on his test forms.
speaker-1 (05:25.102)
They love when you point out errors on their own test forms, don't they?
speaker-0 (05:30.162)
And so, yeah, decided to go to law school. It took a gap year in between USC and Santa Clara.
speaker-1 (05:37.482)
How important was that for you to take that time off in between undergrad and law school? Not a lot of people do that. And I I've had conversations with people about that. Tell me about your time off in between undergrad and law school.
speaker-0 (05:53.678)
I just kind of took it as an opportunity to take a breath because once you hit law school, you're out of law school and you're running. And so I, you know, I moved back in with my folks, had a good relationship with my parents. We hung out quite a bit. And so I lived at home for a year. I tutored kids in math and science because that was always easy and fun for me growing up. And so I tutored
speaker-1 (06:03.308)
Fall in, right?
speaker-1 (06:11.918)
really well.
speaker-0 (06:23.52)
middle school students and high school students and that in the afternoons. I played racquetball twice a week. I gulked with my dad twice a week and really just kind of had fun. Yeah, enjoying myself and enjoying not having any ties knowing that once you take that next step forward, you're in it.
speaker-1 (06:32.744)
Sounds like a year,
speaker-1 (06:46.272)
It's like the step before you're an adult, but like the full adulting process. Have you ever sounds like you had a lot of fun? I know this is a loaded question, but have you ever reached that level of happiness as you had in that year?
speaker-0 (07:05.55)
no, I mean, that was one of the best years. It was one of the best string of 12 months that I've ever had. mean, I was I was real close with my dad. Yeah. And. Yeah, but it was it was just a time where he and I really got to bond, really have a good time. And, you know, at the same time, we both had similar interests. I picked up his interest in racquetball. I picked up his interest in golf. And so we really got to do a lot of a lot of fun things. Yeah, it was a great time.
speaker-1 (07:16.608)
I asked that knowing what the answer was.
speaker-1 (07:35.488)
And I've been saving these questions for later on, but you've kind of brought Nick to the forefront. And Nick to me, who's your dad? I didn't have a long relationship with him, but from the moment I met him, we're a kindred souls. And I felt like he had that with a lot of people. And I always ask people like, who are your role models? Obviously I know your dad and your mom are role models.
and I know your dad had passed and I'm probably gonna get teary-eyed because for me that was hard. It was hard to learn of that and know that the world had lost such a truly special person. hearing you talk about him and hearing me trying to choke through it, tell me what Nick meant to you and what he imparted on you and what you hope that Nick imparted on you that you get to impart on your son Max.
speaker-0 (08:29.614)
My dad was a very matter-of-fact guy.
when you were struggling with something, he didn't give you the answer until you went to him for it. And then he'd give it to you very plainly. He was a good voice of reason. He was a good counterbalance to whatever you were doing and very no nonsense approach. But he always knew how to he always knew how to point people in the direction that they already knew how to get to, but just needed that little extra nudge. Sure. He had a way. He had a way about that. Yeah. And
He never really got freaked out about anything. was always very composed, something I'm not quite as good at and hopefully will be one day. he just brought a level of stability to where he was and that's what was kind of neat about him. when he went into, the people that knew him, when he went into a place, he was a friendly face and people didn't screw around with him.
speaker-1 (09:33.526)
You didn't fuck with Nick, but you always joked with Nick.
speaker-0 (09:37.014)
he was, he loved, he loved somebody who could, who could take ribbing and at the same time who could give him, who could give him some crap. And that would get, that would gain his respect right off the bat.
speaker-1 (09:49.164)
I remember, I think the first time I met him, I don't know if it was after, I met him during law school. But after law school, I came down and hung out with you here in Long Beach. And he was just his table, up the head of the table. gave me this deadpan stare and was like, what's up? I was like, hey, said some sarcastic ass response. And I was like.
speaker-0 (10:03.873)
and a spot.
speaker-1 (10:13.454)
You and I are going to get along really well. And I gave it right back to him. I saw a little recognition in his eyes. It's like, you and I are cool. And, know, it takes a spirit to recognize the spirit, but he and I had a similar sense of, of, of humor, but even beyond the people that have similar sense of humor, his, he transcended every other personality. When we were at his service, it was just so powerful to hear how many lives he impacted.
And it goes to show that you don't need to be this big name person to impact so many lives. And at a celebration of life, I think you guys had in mind X amount of people. And then that got overshot by two or three times. I don't know. So to me, it proves that being being humble, being being graceful.
and doing small things in life every day really impacts how you impact people going forward. And so that was really on display for Next Service's life. And I could go on for a lot of time, but I don't want to take up your thunder. I was super happy to have known your dad. And I still look at his picture over there and I miss him. So thank you for letting me have that moment. And I see a lot of his qualities in you.
and I know you're gonna pass them on to your kids. So with that in mind, before I get blubbery-eyed, what other people, aside from your father, kind of impacted how you have developed and how you approach life?
speaker-0 (11:55.79)
I mean, parents are obviously big influence because they're the people you're around the most. They're the people who really shape you and, and whatnot. But I, grew up with a, in a big family, not just immediate family, but a lot of extended family around. So I was always around different people, know, aunts, uncles, cousins, and, know, it's kind of a collective view. You see what to do. You see not what not to do. You know, I was the oldest cousin on my mom's side. I was one of the younger cousins on my dad's side.
speaker-1 (12:24.846)
I got the dichotomy of experiences.
speaker-0 (12:26.714)
And so that always kind of factors in and you know teachers that you run into both in grade school and high school, you run into some bad ones and the bad ones they still find a way to shape you because you start to recognize certain personality traits and the way people behave that you don't like. And then there's the ones that you do like, the ones who reward you, the ones who have that buy-in or have that...
supportive nature for you because every every kid's different every kid has their own path. Yeah, and some are great some are straight some are crooked but you know you need somebody that you need somebody that recognizes each person for you know what they are who they bring to the table and you know what if they've got if they've got something to work with those teachers help mold it and I was fortunate to have a lot of great teachers along the way that I really think I really think helped.
steer me in the direction I needed to go. Sure. Gave me the room for growth, gave me the encouragement when I needed it and the the pats on the back when I needed it and at the same time the discipline when I needed it. I mean having having good teachers and going to good schools I think is real important. Yeah.
speaker-1 (13:38.638)
I know there was something in there that I liked that you said that every kid has a different path and not every kid is going to be on the path that you expect and recognizing that each person has their own journey and learning to adapt to that is very, has very, um, involves a lot of self-awareness and not a lot of, cause a lot of people have expectations and if they don't fit those expectations on their field.
But knowing that not everyone's gonna run the path that you want and maybe take a divergent path, it takes a lot of humility and self-awareness to realize that. And I feel like there's a lot of Nick, but also Rose in there. We haven't talked about Rose, but Rose is your mom. I think Rose had a lot of influence on you guys. And I've had a lot of conversations with Rose. She was definitely different from Nick, but she...
You know, seeing where you guys came from strong two parent household, but definitely big personalities, loud, not loud, but you know, they, they definitely molded you guys very well. And it's, I think it's very, very endearing to hear that you can say that. it's very, it involves a lot of humility to say that it takes a, there's different paths for everyone.
speaker-0 (14:45.267)
yeah.
speaker-0 (15:03.982)
you
You know, I got a lot of the reason, logic, and level-headedness from my dad, but I got a lot of the fire and the passion from my mom. thank you. It's fire and ice type, but it balances each other out, and you've got to have a little of both. Yeah.
speaker-1 (15:14.605)
Use.
speaker-1 (15:22.262)
Rose is definitely got a little fire to her. Also, the first time I met her, she was in a booty with a roller chair backing me up the rug because someone had walked in with shoes on. He'd never walked in Rose's house and always got vacuumed. But I love them both. You know, the funny, I have a story about Rose actually.
speaker-0 (15:24.702)
I love that.
speaker-1 (15:47.95)
I was in Mammoth one time and the snow was so bad so I pulled out my fly fishing rod. I don't even know what part of Mammoth I was in. I just walked down to the creek. I was like, whatever. It's toward like Eagle Lodge. here's Logan. Logan? I'm like. I hooked the arm like who the? Oh shit, that's Andy's mom. Rose, what are you doing here? What are you doing here? So we have somehow reconnected on some like.
mammoth trip and we had a good conversation, but your mom was always adventurous and I know you guys love the mountains and your parents to me were something special. So thank you for sharing them with me. So we know each other from law school and I think you and I have had a lot of conversations off camera about law school and how it serves us, how we also feel that
speaker-0 (16:31.224)
you
speaker-1 (16:41.016)
There's a lot of people that law school and law is meant for and then at some point you and I might see a path off from law than us. Tell me about your journey with law.
speaker-0 (16:53.194)
with law or law school?
speaker-1 (16:55.448)
Let's talk about law, because law school is a different story that I think probably are best suited off camera. We got a lot of those stories, but I don't feel comfortable sharing.
speaker-0 (17:05.454)
Well, law is, I mean, it's a way to make a living. I've not, I wouldn't say I'm passionate about what I do, but I, what I do is interesting enough and I enjoy aspects of what I do. That's because not everything's routine. There's a lot of.
There's a lot of paper pushing and there's a lot of doing the same thing over and over again But every once in a while you get something and it makes you think creatively and I I've always enjoyed problem-solving. whatever it is even thinking back to the to the LSAT, you know the Games like to me I'd have picked up a know a logic game book at the airport on a long flight type of thing I I always enjoyed those so finding a problem and
speaker-1 (17:39.662)
Logic games. That was right up your alley.
speaker-0 (17:53.62)
and troubleshooting it or helping people see the obvious solution or the solution that's right in front of them. That's enjoyable to me. And so that's really a lot what I do. I work with people on business and real estate transactional deals where sometimes there is a solution out there and they're just not seeing it. And it's kind of fun and rewarding to be a
an adjunct, an adjunct part of their team, you know, for however limited the amount of time is. Yeah, and it's and that's interesting. But, you know, there's a lot of law, too, that, you know, I don't practice and I or at least I don't anymore. I a baby lawyer, I litigated for a few years and I hated it. Yeah, I hated dealing with angry people all the time. Sure. And going to court, it just wasn't for me. Yeah. Some people love it. Some people thrive on it.
speaker-1 (18:30.446)
Bring light to the blinders.
speaker-0 (18:53.398)
Not me. I don't regret the experience that I had. think it helped form me into the person that I am today, both in my practice and just in general life skills. But yeah, mean, there's different aspects of law that I think are continue to be interesting. And there's plenty that are just run of the mill. Yeah.
speaker-1 (18:54.481)
No, definitely not.
speaker-1 (19:18.606)
with you 100%. So I'm going to ask this question with some self-interest. When someone else asks you, are you doing what you find passionate and how do you respond to that?
speaker-0 (19:32.014)
I'm not sure I'm passionate about what I do. It's interesting enough to keep me engaged. I, you know, so, you know, to back up, deal in commercial real estate transactions. I help people buy and sell commercial and industrial real estate. And some of our clients buy, you know, large scale shopping centers or develop large scale shopping centers. Now I grew up in a
speaker-1 (19:39.426)
changed.
speaker-0 (19:59.47)
I grew up with a dad who was in the steel business. so I was always around development from a certain point of view. saw, you know, steel frames of buildings going up and was always on job sites. And yeah. And so, you know, being seeing things, seeing things get formulated out of nothing, you know, a raw piece of land that turns into a, you know, a shopping center or something like that as retailers and restaurants.
speaker-1 (20:11.896)
sets.
speaker-0 (20:26.818)
That's kind of neat to see and it's neat to be involved in. But it's one of those things that you get to experience or be part of the creative aspect of it in a certain way. And there's some reward there.
speaker-1 (20:43.352)
Sure.
Well, it's nice. It's kind of like seeing your baby come to from infancy to creation. You know, it's like you get to watch it grow. The reason I asked that and I'm meaning to put you on the spot is because I struggle with that question. Do you find passion in what you do? And I feel like the answer a lot of people give is of course I do. And a lot of people feel guilty or they feel obligated to say that.
because there's not a lot of truth telling because a lot of people I feel like aren't passionate about what they do or they might feel stuck or it's a job. And there's not a lot of dialogue nowadays about it's okay to not feel passionate about what you do. It's a means to an end. It doesn't mean that you are in the wrong field because when someone tells you find your passion, man, that's a hard endeavor.
speaker-0 (21:19.15)
.
speaker-0 (21:42.986)
If you do, you're one of the few lucky ones.
speaker-1 (21:44.926)
lucky ones right and I feel like a lot of people will say well it's not my passion I say hey man if you are if you're able to marry your passion with your career you're in the like two or three percent
speaker-0 (21:57.09)
Yeah, right. I agree. mean, I guess the way I look at it is as long as you don't hate what you do and if what you do allows you the time and the resources to pursue something else that you are passionate about, then that works. I love that. think you should at least you should have a passion and you should pursue it. Yeah. If it is what you do for a living, more power to you. You are again, you're blessed.
But if it's not, then...
speaker-1 (22:29.698)
Does your work allow you to obtain some...
speaker-0 (22:31.8)
So your passion... Pursue a passion. Everybody needs to have something they're passionate about. Everybody needs to have something that they develop, that they nurture, that they improve on. Sure. You know, self-improvement. It's all very important.
speaker-1 (22:46.83)
Yeah, I love the people like just find your passion. I'm like, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just go figure it out. And I feel like everyone has a nice little colloquialism, like just do what you love. Yeah. Because you will never work a day in your life. That's great. Yeah. I I love what do you want to do? I I want a snowboarder for a living, but I suck. I'm not good enough to be a professional snowboarder and I'm too old. I have bad knees.
speaker-0 (23:03.958)
Yeah, easier seven.
speaker-0 (23:14.094)
you know, I always wanted to be like the guy who picked the songs for movies, you know, paired like, not necessarily the scores, but like, you know, would go through the record catalog and say, oh, we're going to play the Beach Boys right here. We're going to play something out here. But, you know, that's...
speaker-1 (23:21.386)
The scores,
speaker-1 (23:32.11)
You can't pay the bills without to go too much. That's a very niche. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your answer. I feel like now with a lot of us, some people feel stuck and I feel stuck a lot of times and I come back to, I love what I do, but sometimes I want to do something different and it kind of feels like
speaker-0 (23:36.492)
Wrong path, man.
speaker-1 (23:59.808)
You go to school, you're stuck in a career. You pursue a career. But the world before us didn't give us like the, can do this career, but you can also branch out in other ways. It was like, you had one career and that's what you do. You retire. I didn't never really like that mold. And I always knew that I had something else in me. And I struggle with that inner dialogue of like, well, I'm a lawyer, but I.
I help out people, I make decent money, but if I go to this, I make less money and I feel like I have a golden handcuffs on sometimes. So it's a interesting dichotomy that we go through, you know, and I feel like other people go through that and they might feel paralyzed. That's just how I feel. Do you have any like insight into that?
speaker-0 (24:37.164)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (24:49.652)
I mean, I don't disagree that it's kind of hard to pivot, especially the longer you're established in something because you've got your safety net there with what you're making. And, you know, as we get older, we all have our liabilities and our obligations that further weigh us down and what we're doing. But, you know, if you're truly unhappy in something or you really want to pursue something that's going to that's going to help you grow as a person, I mean, I think today more than ever.
speaker-1 (25:18.754)
you have so much opportunity.
speaker-0 (25:20.046)
The resources that are available with, you know, just connectivity and networking and AI. Yeah, the advent of AI. I mean, there's a lot more opportunity now than there was, say, 10 years ago. So you kind of have to weigh everything. And, you know, if it's really something you need to do for yourself, for your growth, for your family or, you know, whatever your situation is. And yeah, I mean, it's something you really need to consider.
Yeah.
speaker-1 (25:50.194)
It's you don't want to be in a situation that makes you unhappy. But it's never easy. Like you can always counsel people like just leave. well, OK. Easier said than done, right?
speaker-0 (25:54.049)
No.
speaker-0 (26:03.278)
It's hard to leave an income. It's hard to leave a steady paycheck, that's the thing.
speaker-1 (26:09.39)
And especially when you have, like you said, liabilities and you get older, you have a wife, you have kids, you have a husband, you have dependents, you have bills, all this stuff.
speaker-0 (26:18.414)
Early on as a baby lawyer, you and I graduated during a really tough time with the market crash in 2008 and a lot of our classmates struggled to find jobs. I struggled to find a job right out of law school and I worked part-time for a lady who did construction defect for the better part of a year. And I didn't like it, but it was all that was there. What I wanted to do, what I clerked at as a law clerk, which is the firm I'm at now,
partner at now is there there was no real estate going on real estate transaction people are buying and selling in 2008. Yeah, and so I litigate and I I really didn't like it. I I look back and I'm fortunate for the experience that I had but there were I went through several Several thought processes where I
Decided well if I'm not going to do this I need to move now and what would I want to do? I thought about getting into financial advisement sure I thought about getting into consulting although you know it's kind of hard to be a consultant You have no experience and know And I was really I was kind of looked at getting you know getting a real estate license because I figured all well markets are cyclical They're going to turn again. Yeah, and so I reached out to a lot of different people that I knew that were in these other industries
speaker-1 (27:23.31)
experience.
speaker-0 (27:38.452)
And it was a really hard time. you know, fortunately enough, I kind of, I pushed through and got to a point where I'm at now. but it's, it's tough. It's really tough to have those, those internal conversations about what do I do with myself? How do I navigate this? How do you keep your sanity through everything? especially with what we do. I mean, I don't want to make it, make it have to sound like it's.
you know, superior to other professions with burnout and things like that. But burnout and law is very real. Yeah. And sure, there's the paycheck tied to it that a lot of people look at and say, well, you're getting compensated. Excellent. But it it really weighs down. There's a reason why so many attorneys either have health problems early or they have addiction problems. It's something that.
the profession itself really can weigh on you if you let it consume you. And so it's all, you can say that I'm sure about a lot of professions, but that goes back to, well, you need to make sure that you have something you're passionate about, something you're maintaining a good work-life balance. Healthy balance. Yeah, so that you're not a decompress. Yeah.
speaker-1 (28:55.508)
And I, that's really one of the reasons I come back to you. And one of the reasons I always speak so highly of Nick is like, we would commiserate at the table and he'd be like, yeah, that's cool. So, are you guys done complaining? Like he would just say, okay, he would put your life in perspective. Like we're complaining about, you know, it's not stupid, but like, okay, we're done. We're employed. We're fine. And
speaker-0 (29:21.964)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (29:25.236)
You said something about being brought up in a, you know, we, came out during 2008 it's hard and it was hard to find jobs. And I was very fortunate. I had a job with my brother and I know a lot of my, like you, a lot of our colleagues didn't and they had to persevere. And I feel that there's a lot of negativity surrounding new people, new admissions to
the bar or this new generation that's coming up and how they approach things and I I Hear both sides I hear the old man in the corner saying they're soft. They don't know how to work They don't even know it's like they need to persevere and then I hear the other side saying well the old guard doesn't understand what we were trying to go through We want more work-life balance Not putting you on the spot, but I for myself see both sides of the coin
One, you gotta cut your teeth. Because you're not gonna come out of very, shouldn't say not, very few people are gonna come out of their training, education, and land their dream job without having put in the experience to cut their teeth. But at the same time, it doesn't necessarily mean you should be in a position where you're being just beat down by these other people. Like the old style of law was like,
speaker-0 (30:49.9)
Amazing.
speaker-1 (30:52.61)
Yeah, the hazing, like you're going to build 2,500 hours, whatever, I don't know, it is 2,000 hours a month and we're going to cut it. that shit's a thought. Maybe it does. I don't know. I don't have any insight into the billboard world. But how do you land on that spectrum of the new guard versus old school mentality? Because we have to think about all this now that we're kind of in the middle. Where do you land on that?
speaker-0 (31:18.752)
I mean, it's a, I'll answer that in kind of a roundabout way because I, when I look at, I've dealt with that with people that have worked for me and at our firm and I've seen, you know, talked with other people that are in our, you know, our age group that are in hiring positions. And, you know, I think when you look at work ethic as a whole, I think of the younger generations right now.
as a whole, they don't have the same work ethic. That's an overgeneralization from the standpoint of it's not meant to mean that all of them are that way, but a lot of them are. And I think it really boils down to, at least my take on it, is I think a lot of it's parenting. And I think a lot of it's not necessarily the...
It has to do with the way that kids are being raised, accountability, having kids struggle. When you don't let kids struggle and you always give them the solution, they don't grow up to learn to find the solution themselves. And if they don't have a good work ethic growing up, they're not going to have a good work ethic in the office place.
you know, working for you isn't going to change that. So they're either going to have that ethic or they're not. Now, the ones that I've seen that do the ones that I've seen that don't, I it's very, it's very easily spotted. You know, there's people who are out the door right when, right when five 30 hits. Yeah. And then there's the people who get their work done. They don't save it till tomorrow. I'm not sure that's something you can train as, as
as an employer. And that's the difficult part about it. so, I I look for those things when I'm dealing with people that work for our firm that are working under me or that I'm supervising. you really want to, it's real hard to find people who are consistently engaged.
speaker-0 (33:36.818)
and want to put in that extra effort because you're right, you have to cut your teeth, you have to learn and learning our profession isn't easy. You can't pick up a practice guide and do what we do. A lot of it is learned from trial and error. And you just hope the person supervising your work catches your errors before the paper goes out the door. But you learn, you make mistakes and then you learn not to make that mistake again.
speaker-1 (34:03.894)
Yeah, I was talking to someone and they mentioned to me that they only wanted to learn something if there was a mentor involved. And I was like, a mentor is not always going to be there. Sometimes you're to have to learn this game by yourself. And if you don't want to learn it, then you're always going to be stuck in your bubble.
speaker-0 (34:24.462)
Yeah, there's the, you know, show me how to do it so I can do it in the future versus show me how I can learn to do it. Yeah. You know, I've had several people work under me. I enjoy mentoring and I enjoy supervising and working with younger attorneys. You know, one of the other things I did, I was for a long time after after graduating college, I stayed on and I
was a chapter advisor to my fraternity at USC. Sure. And I'd work with the presidents and I would mentor them and help them navigate their very small issues. But to them, it was, you know, Yeah. And it's the kind of thing where there's a lot of reward there. But you. You know, everybody's going to have their own methodology on that. I. I'm going to.
speaker-1 (35:06.766)
Thanks
speaker-0 (35:22.392)
get them most of the way there, but you have to let people fail too and let them figure out how to take that last step. You can't just always give them the answer because then they're not gonna grow.
speaker-1 (35:34.708)
I agree and part of owning my own business is dealing with the what my expectations are versus someone who's my age versus someone who might be five, 10 years, 15 years younger. And I'm not always going to be able to put myself in their shoes, but not imposing my expectations on them and learning.
Like as an employer, it's you know, you have your expectations and no one's gonna love your business as much as yourself and once you realize that You're gonna be more successful but Learning how to navigate personality is man. It's it's hard and you don't learn this stuff and like you said, it's trial and error and It can be challenging and you never it's a never-ending practice
speaker-0 (36:25.358)
Well, the personality thing is always interesting because everybody has their own way of processing information. Everybody has their own way of engaging with material and it may or may not mesh with the way that you were taught or the way that you understand and do things. And it's almost a different language.
speaker-1 (36:50.286)
But even like as someone who say it doesn't mesh with what I was learning, I can learn from that. And if you're unable to evolve and understand that there are multiple ways to do things, then you're not growing as a boss or a mentor because not everyone's geared to learn the way you do. And so it's incumbent on you.
to dial in directly if you want to really be a true mentor. But at the same time, there's also gonna be buy-in. The other person has to buy in and reciprocate. And once those two are harmonious, I think then there's synergy. But if those two are not aligned, there's always gonna be friction.
speaker-0 (37:22.094)
Thank
speaker-0 (37:26.049)
Mm-hmm.
speaker-0 (37:37.696)
Well, know, even mentors are learning. You never fully learned in your craft. You're always learning something new.
speaker-1 (37:44.086)
And the moment you stop, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if you say you've learned it all and you can't learn any more, then you need to...
speaker-0 (37:51.586)
Yeah, you're done. Yeah, step aside. Yeah, because you're never done. Yeah, there's always something new to be learned. There's always a different perspective on things. And so by mentoring, you're facilitating your own personal growth. Sure. And sometimes you may realize, maybe I could have been doing this differently. And it it's a it's a process.
speaker-1 (38:12.65)
I do that all the time. I'm a very, when I train, I don't train. I'm not a good teacher. And I always delegate that to someone on my staff. Because I don't know, I just, can't train. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's impatience. But when I hear feedback, I always like, my systems could be better. My onboarding could be better. What can I take away from this?
this lesson and improve going forward. So I try and incorporate that as much as possible. And that's something that in my thirties, I thought I, I think I was so egotistical that I knew everything like, I got this figured out. then towards the end of my thirties, was like, no, you don't. You really don't. It's time to take a piece of humble pie and you know, reengage and be, a little bit softer of a presence. So I
speaker-0 (39:00.567)
Bye.
speaker-1 (39:10.21)
there is a big learning curve for not only the people underneath, but the people on top.
speaker-0 (39:14.698)
Mm-hmm. I agree.
speaker-1 (39:16.802)
Yeah, yeah. So away from the mundane stuff of law, because no one likes to hear about law. You got three kids. What are some some nuggets that young parents can learn from you? How to balance out marriage? Three children, seven, five and three.
speaker-0 (39:25.39)
You
speaker-1 (39:46.008)
full-time career? What, cause that was part of my podcast, like bringing people together that aren't necessarily the upper echelon, but people that I find successful, be it personal, professional, financial, whatever, however you want to find it. what is something that you, just sitting here today, sorry, this is a long-winded question. Sitting here today with four hours with your family.
You guys navigate this very well. So enlighten me on if I was a person considering having kids and having my partner and I work full time, what are some nuggets that you can instill on people?
speaker-0 (40:29.206)
had a few know if any, me know. It's organized chaos around here. It's I mean, we're doing the best we can. Yeah. Trying to be good parents, trying to juggle everything. We don't get it right all the time. And I think knowing that and just continuing to try and just do as best you can and teach good values and make sure that you're
speaker-1 (40:45.696)
I think.
speaker-0 (40:59.584)
you're spending enough time with your spouse and not getting caught up in what everybody else is doing and really just focus on what's important for you and your family and their growth. I think if you're just doing that, you're I think you're ahead. You're ahead of the curve. Yeah. Outside of that, I mean.
shoot there are plenty of days where I you know my wife and I'll look back and think boy today was a tough day and I really feel bad about how I did x y or z yeah and there's that self-reflection there and and just well how do I how do I be better
And then you might have the same slip up the next day. You know, you might find yourself in a spiral and it just, I think as long as you have the ability to reflect and to try to improve.
That that's really the most important thing. Yeah, there's no perfect parenting. There's no perfect relationship advice, at least in my opinion. Maintain a goal of continued personal growth. Maintain a goal of. Of always checking in and making sure that you're doing what you can for your partner that you are. You are.
keeping your kids on the path that you big picture want them to be on. And the small little detours that you take along the way, that's just part of the ride.
speaker-1 (42:32.814)
That was very eloquent, I can't even add anything to that. think what I can say is that it's always a practice. It's always a journey and there's never a perfection and it's always progress beats perfection any day.
speaker-0 (42:35.374)
You
speaker-0 (42:49.134)
There's no blueprint. you know, with three kids, my oldest may take path A and my middle kid may...
be completely different. And what worked for one doesn't work for the other. And what worked for the other two may be completely backwards for the third. It is a constant learning experience. And if you tackle it with too much, you try to instill too much control or too much rigidity in anything, you're gonna get swallowed up. You're gonna go fast, right?
speaker-1 (43:24.67)
Yeah, they'll eat you alive. And there's always a moment where you're feel overwhelmed and it's okay because it's life. Life is hard.
speaker-0 (43:37.492)
Yeah, it's about the ride though. you've got to look back and think, well, I learned something today. Or today was a good day.
speaker-1 (43:48.174)
I learned a new joke from your son. He said, what's this? Nose. What's your name? Logan. What's in my hand? Nothing. Logan knows nothing. That ate on my soul. Get away. Man, I'm going to incorporate that every day in my life. I don't even know how long we've been going, but talk about your role of father.
speaker-0 (44:05.496)
Kindergarten humor.
speaker-1 (44:18.356)
And you kind of touch on this a little bit being a spouse, but can you reinforce how important it is to make sure that you are fully invested in your relationship and taking the time? Because I know you guys have no time and but in order to be in tune with your partner.
I find it in my relationship beliefs. got, and I don't have nearly the, I don't have kids obviously. How important is it for people to take time as partners and rededicate themselves or just spend time with each other because relationships over a period of years, you know, it's like a practice. So can you touch on that?
speaker-0 (45:12.11)
through.
I mean it.
The few trips away from kids that Keefe and I'll take, it's a completely, I mean, I'm meeting a completely different person. But you know, you just have to kind of commit to decompressing and finding moments. It might be brief moments. It might be a dinner. It might be a night away. But when you do, have to, you got to toss everything else aside and just focus on who you're there with.
speaker-1 (45:25.934)
Thank
speaker-0 (45:45.923)
in the present.
speaker-1 (45:46.99)
I love that moment in the present because I've talked to a lot of people and they're always talking about being in the present. And sometimes when I feel overwhelmed, go to a place I can control my place. Sometimes it's work because I know I can control an email and control a response and then I finally get myself centered and present. And sometimes I find the hardest thing for me is to be present in my personal life.
Cause those are things outside my control. And that's the hardest for me is being present in something that you have no control on. And so that's kind of learning curve for me is just learning to let life come to you instead of forcing it. So for people that are like me, that have need to have control over everything, sometimes the best thing is just to let it go.
speaker-0 (46:42.632)
And it's easier said than done, but you know, you make a point. Yeah, and I'm guilty of this too. I'll be in an event that I've been looking forward to for a long time. It could be a concert or it could be an event with the kids. And then you get to that event and you're already thinking about what you have to do tomorrow. Yeah. And or what your, know, what your schedule looks like when you get home from. And you don't really enjoy what you had been looking forward to that whole time.
speaker-1 (47:04.768)
Or you're on your phone like...
speaker-1 (47:12.11)
and you ruined it for your partner. Because you're not present or you're on your phone. They're like, what are you looking at? Like, just my calendar for tomorrow. You're just a complete asshole.
speaker-0 (47:22.124)
You gotta learn to shut it down sometimes. It is, especially today. mean, everybody... They get an answer right away.
speaker-1 (47:23.648)
Yeah, and that's easier said than done.
Everyone expects
But you know what? I never lost a client because I didn't. Well, I can't say I've never lost a but in my recollection, I haven't lost a client because I didn't respond within the hour or the two hours or four or whatever. Name the time. Now, I mean, not saying don't go three, four days, but.
speaker-0 (47:44.992)
for us.
speaker-1 (47:51.338)
at least have a mechanism in place that if you're unable to respond, someone in your place will. That way you can free yourself up to be present with your people. All right. Some fun stuff. Man, finally. No, wait. Fight on. Why is Yusele better in SC? No, kidding. Why is SC better in Yusele?
speaker-0 (48:01.326)
Thank
speaker-0 (48:16.306)
It depends on the sport, depends on the year. It's a fun rivalry. The games are always fun. Doesn't matter the sport. But, you know, there's just something about it.
speaker-1 (48:29.038)
It is fun rivalry. You know, I went to Santa Barbara, so I didn't really have a college football team. So I adopted SC because my roommate knew someone that played on SC's team. And I always joke that my team was undefeated since whenever they disbanded in 94. But then UCLA got good at soccer and our college, Santa Barbara, was good at soccer. And I was like, fuck UCLA. And they beat us course. Of course, in Santa Barbara party like rock stars.
I always was like, SC, I love SC. So I'm always going to be on the Trojan side of that. I to ask you what's wrong with SC football right now.
speaker-0 (49:12.312)
think they need a new football coach.
speaker-1 (49:13.966)
Really? Man, they can't get it right, can they?
speaker-0 (49:19.32)
They've sure been struggling ever since Pete Carroll left. It's been one thing.
speaker-1 (49:23.586)
I don't know who typed that up, but that's in there.
speaker-1 (49:31.088)
What?
If your kids told you they wanted to go to UCLA, what's your reaction?
speaker-1 (49:42.648)
Okay. So you're not, you're not a homer. Like my kids are SC just, I mean, obviously you would prefer, you're I appreciate that. we talked about your folks. there any other influences you can out crediting you to get you to where you're at? Finally enjoying your life.
speaker-0 (49:52.355)
The dress should be nicer.
speaker-1 (50:08.118)
I know your dad was a big one and Nick's influence can't be understated. We talked about Rose and her influence on you. Are there any other influences aside from your parents? I know you and I were talking off camera about one of your business influences. So are there any other people that you can credit to finding some success where you're
speaker-0 (50:28.334)
I mean, influence in terms of learning what I like, you know, in what helped get me to where I'm at and also just with life skills. I mean, the people that I've worked for have always have all influenced me and I've seen what they've done right and I've paid attention what they've done wrong. So at least what I would have done differently. I think there's some real value in learning from the people that you work for.
because you can see what kind of life they're leading. And you can know, if I'm just like that person, that's what my life's gonna look like.
speaker-1 (51:03.352)
I'll be like that, but if I don't do that, have the opportunity to not be that.
speaker-0 (51:06.926)
But, you know, lot of the, you know, I played racquetball with my dad. A lot of the guys that I played racquetball with were more closer to my dad's age than they were mine. Sure. A lot of them were successful business people on their own companies or, you know, a couple were attorneys and things like that. And, you know, just just observing and seeing how different people got to where they're at and what makes people tick. Yeah. And so I'm not sure I'd credit anyone.
individual, but just being exposed to different successful people has helped shape me in knowing, okay, well, I know so-and-so took this type of path, or they had this kind of mentality with respect to a particular skill or a particular thing. And I think all of that collectively, just the general experience of being around other people that have
have been successful and have seen success and people who have not seen success and failed. I think that's all valuable experience. Just listening to other people's stories, I guess, would be the way to sum that up.
speaker-1 (52:13.332)
I like that because not only are you talking about exposure, but you're talking about being a sponge. And I know part of the inhibitions to my path was thinking I knew everything. And then once I got out of my own way and open my ears and listening to people, I absorbed a lot more. So if people can learn those two skills, one, getting exposed to people, which you've done, and two, getting out of your own ego.
and just listening, you're gonna learn a lot. And not, I think number three is what you're saying is not being afraid to fail. People are gonna fail, you're gonna fail. It happens, and you know, in our country, failure is, it's not the end all be all. You have the opportunity to bounce back.
speaker-0 (52:44.173)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (52:54.552)
Happens all the time.
speaker-0 (53:03.938)
When you listen to people that are far more successful than I'll ever be, in how they got to where they're at, they'll tell you how many times they failed before they got it right.
speaker-1 (53:11.79)
times the whole thing.
And a lot of times in order to get to that degree of success, you have to step outside your comfort level of success. Like you and I have this level, but if we want to get to the next level, well, I might fail and I'm out to build myself back up. Those guys did it repeatedly. That's a special person.
speaker-0 (53:35.662)
for the right person, failure fuels growth.
speaker-1 (53:39.278)
You said it more eloquently than me. Thank you. I remember at your last house and you, you show me your closet. It must have been, I don't even know how big it was. 47 wide, Scotch bourbon whiskey. If you could recommend one bottle of bourbon or one bottle of Scotch or whatever it is within a reasonable price point that you're drinking right now.
What are you recommending?
speaker-0 (54:11.454)
Bourbon wise, think dollar for dollar, Eagle Rare is still some of the best stuff on the market. It's a Eagle Rare is a Buffalo Trace whiskey. It's a 10 year. Still flies under the radar for a lot of people, although more recently it's become allocated just because the secret's out. But it's you can still find it a decent amount of places. It's a great whiskey. Scotch, I mean.
I really like Glenn Dronach. Glenn Dronach's a good Scotch. I recently got turned on to
Glenn Scotia which is a Campbelltown Scotch. Yeah I'd say probably those two. Okay.
speaker-1 (54:58.744)
I appreciate that. I'm taking notes in my, my AI over there. You and I off camera were talking about some ways where we were, as we got older, we were making some realizations about some affirmations or some things that maybe in our younger years, we thought was hocus pocus or whatever you want to say it to. But what are some things that as you age, you're
you're relying upon or some resources you're relying upon, not only for like education, but reinforcement. I think you know where I'm going. I don't want to say self-improvement, because I think that's a loaded question, but just practicing to be a better human. What are some resources or some books, podcasts that you find helpful for you?
speaker-0 (55:54.062)
You know, it's funny, I've become a lot more interested in AI as kind of a source for starting to give you more ideas on places to look. Especially with the integration on Google, it helps kind of give you more search results, more targeted search results.
You know, there's some books out there that I've bought here and there, parenting books, books on individual self-improvement, books on relationships and self-discovery. I don't always get through them all because I'm not the...
speaker-1 (56:35.758)
That's a lot of real.
speaker-0 (56:36.878)
But, uh, you know, those, those have been helpful podcasts. Um, there's a couple of relationship and intimacy, intimacy podcasts out there that are, that are good and just, you know, pointing out it, it's funny. I, you know, we were talking earlier off camera about, you know, relationship struggles and it's common in every relationship. You're going to have ups and downs and you know, when you have the downs, it's how to, it's how to navigate through that and figure how to get yourself to the.
you know, from there to where you need to get to. And, know, lot of that is, just, you, you come to find that you're not the only one with the same problem. Yeah. There's a lot of people out there that have the same problems and people talk about them. You just have to kind of go to the right resources. And the solutions aren't very cryptic either. They're very common, no nonsense solutions, but really what it takes is it takes commitment.
takes buy-in and a little bit of courage to just take that step and acknowledge that, all right, well, I need to do this or I need to do that. And with parenting, same thing. Everybody says, I don't wanna be like my parents were. I wanna be better than my parents. Well, then it takes the courage to know when you are falling into a certain trap or a certain routine, a pattern, and how do you...
How do you pivot out of there?
speaker-1 (58:06.542)
I like the word courage because that you can always say you don't want to do this, but it takes courage to actively confront your default mechanisms and try not necessarily change them, but just be aware of them because a lot of people I think the awareness is the most important step and then once you're aware of them, you're never going to change them. They're always going to be there. They're default and that's
Maybe I'm wrong. don't know. But as long as you're aware, then you can actively try and take steps to make them better. But I think at your core, they're always going to be there. But if you're aware of them and you know, oh, I feel myself getting this way. But if you have that awareness, you're like, then it clicks. Like, I don't want to respond. I know for me, I have a default to anger and reactiveness. And sometimes that awareness clicks. And then other times it just
It's not even there. So I think it's just a constant practice. And being a good person is just a constant practice. So I love that word about it takes courage because a lot of people don't, I don't want say don't want to, but it's hard. It's hard to confront the things that you've, that are antithetical to who you are.
speaker-0 (59:06.51)
Hmm
speaker-0 (59:30.99)
Growth is not easy.
speaker-1 (59:33.186)
Yeah, no, never is and it's scary. Yeah. Cause that's how you are.
All right. Who's a better golfer? You or me? Next question. I know you're big into some sports, golf, racquetball. These. So I would say those are passion for you. Right.
speaker-0 (59:45.806)
Next question.
speaker-0 (01:00:01.673)
They're my release valves.
speaker-1 (01:00:03.982)
How did you get into, because I know you were a D1 water polo player, you were into sports, but it seems like you adopted the former because of your father. Is that a true statement?
speaker-0 (01:00:18.758)
Both of them. when I, so I played water polo at SC for two years again was, it wasn't, wasn't really going to go anywhere for me. And I'm fortunate for the experience and the, you know, being a part of the team. But, you know, when I got, when I, when I hung that up, I needed something to do. My dad was an avid racquetball player. It's quite good club, you know, club A player and
speaker-1 (01:00:45.022)
name on the plaque right?
speaker-0 (01:00:48.11)
And I wanted to give that a try and spend some time with him. And so I took it up. He bought me a racket and I went down there and started hitting around. He taught me the ropes and I started playing with him and picked up the game pretty fast and got to be a decent club level player. And so it was a...
It's a fun sport for giving. gave me the mental release that I needed because you're playing against somebody else. It's not like running or swimming where you're just exercising and yeah, your thoughts are there when you're, when you're playing a sport like that, you know, anything where you're going up against somebody else. For me, it's racquetball. Your mind.
speaker-1 (01:01:19.179)
and
speaker-0 (01:01:31.822)
turns everything else off. I could be having the worst day. I could be stressed out about anything, but I get on the court and I'm focused on just one thing and that's beating my opponent. And so it was a real positive thing for me because I mean, my brain will run around everything and I can't shut it down sometimes. Racquetball let me do that.
speaker-1 (01:01:50.382)
answerable.
speaker-1 (01:01:57.16)
So how do you square that with golf? Because golf isn't completely antithetical to that. You're in your own head all the time. do you golf? And you're a good golfer. So how do you manage to blank that mind out and golf?
speaker-0 (01:02:11.47)
Don't really blank it out, but golf was more of a social thing I did with my dad. Okay. You know, I started, I started playing with him at a younger age, not really seriously, but he would go out and play because he was really into it because that's what he did with his dad. Yeah. In his dad's latter years. That's how he and his dad kind of later in life. And so I would go out with him and, you know, hit around and drive the golf cart and stuff like that. And then in college around the racquetball time, he
He and I started playing a lot. And so for me, golf was more of a way to just spend time with him. And at the same time, there's still the competition there when you're playing against somebody else. And, it was just, it was a bonding thing and a good, a good life skill to learn because out on a golf course, you meet lots of different people. There can be competition, there can be business and it's just,
You know, one of those things where it's a you're walking in the park with some friends, maybe by yourself. You got nature around you. You're you're struggling with a game that is not easy.
speaker-1 (01:03:21.614)
You how many golf clubs I've wrapped around a trip? And I've walked off the golf course numerous times because I have such a temper.
speaker-0 (01:03:23.994)
the tree.
speaker-0 (01:03:29.494)
Yeah, it's not for everybody, but I love it. It's nice to be out there.
speaker-1 (01:03:35.647)
When you hit a golf shot that's clean, there's not too many feelings that can compare to that sound. It's like, I got a hold of that one.
speaker-0 (01:03:43.586)
Well, and that's the neat thing about golf too. mean, you could be a, you could be a 30 handicap player or a scratch golfer and everybody's going to hit a flush shot here and there. when you do hit that, you're, you feel it. It's, it's pretty cool. And there's not a lot of sports where you have that, odds of,
speaker-1 (01:04:06.35)
Not, it's not so democratic. I couldn't go out and hit a tennis shot flush anywhere. Golf, there's every so often that the guy with the 30 handicap might hit this.
speaker-0 (01:04:08.643)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:04:17.422)
Or he might drain a 30 foot pot or a 50 foot pot and that's that You know, they might not do it every time. That's why they're a 30 plus handicap. it's It brings you back and it's it's fun. Yeah, it makes you appreciate the nuances of the game. Yeah
speaker-1 (01:04:35.694)
So we're kind of rounding the corner. I wanted to ask you some specific questions. I already asked you why UCLA is better than SCA. Of course I got pushed back. You recently just got back from a golf trip with our mutual friend. If you could golf three courses, previously golf, not yet golf or want to golf, name
speaker-0 (01:05:03.086)
courses that are available to the public or courses that are private courses?
speaker-1 (01:05:07.978)
Okay, let's, good question. Let's treat up three, three each. Private, private and not available and then public and available.
speaker-0 (01:05:16.686)
I'll start with the public and available. I'd like to play Royal Port Rush, which is in Northern Ireland. I'd like to play Pebble Beach because I've not played there before.
speaker-0 (01:05:31.961)
I'd like to play Bethpage, Bethpage Black. That's a public course in New York. Private courses, mean, you'd have to, yeah, you've got to put a guest out in there. Cypress Point would be the other one that's right next to Pebble. Probably one of the hardest courses to get on.
speaker-1 (01:05:35.84)
Okay. I never even heard of that one.
speaker-1 (01:05:41.198)
right?
speaker-1 (01:05:50.894)
How long has it waited? Three, four, five years?
speaker-0 (01:05:53.582)
Oh, I have no idea. And then another one, I don't know, maybe Shennecock Hills. That's in New York. A lot of good courses back East. Yeah.
speaker-1 (01:06:02.208)
Why all the golf courses in New York? It seems that way. It's where golf was born, right? Well, not born, but born in the US, I suppose. We kind of talked about law not being maybe in our wheelhouse and coming term. You know, it's a good and it's an interesting thing to think about. It's kind of scary, but it's also nice to think about, like, there are some opportunities if you.
could pick up today, not be a lawyer, where would your lateral transition be to?
speaker-0 (01:06:39.31)
I mean, given everything that I've accumulated knowledge wise, I probably want to stay in real estate. Real estate's interesting to me. Development's interesting to me. Being on the actual development side would be an interesting and fun pivot. I mean, be doing different things, but also overlapping with a lot of what I already do. Yeah. It's just not so much in the weeds with the documents, but more with the scouting and with the...
negotiating and planning, looking for those diamonds on the rough, so to speak. What could be done with this area here? How could it be improved?
speaker-1 (01:07:23.502)
kind of just always imagining what can I do to create a very creative process. So we kind of touched on this. We talked about the negatives of, you know, our industry's hard. Sometimes people don't love it. But let's talk about the flexibility. Having a law degree, if you chose to not be a lawyer or attorney anymore, turned in like, hey, stay bar.
speaker-0 (01:07:28.878)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:07:43.086)
Mm-hmm.
speaker-1 (01:07:53.578)
I'm done. I'm inactive. We have so much flexibility to transition. I don't think we talk about that enough. you know, we naturally are human. You complain too much. I'm not saying you, but me. We always sit there and bitch about like, this, this and that. But we are very fortunate because we have this degree that we could turn into so many different avenues. Talk to me about what you think.
a law degree can help out someone who doesn't necessarily want to become an attorney.
speaker-0 (01:08:27.79)
I think it's a way of thinking. mean, law school doesn't really teach you anything substantive, I think. I mean, sure, you get some bits and pieces here with, you know, certain areas of law. And yeah, we might remember a couple of cases back. Things that we were reading, but I think more importantly is it taught you how to be resourceful. It taught you how to take a position and extrapolate on it.
speaker-1 (01:08:42.439)
ship of case.
speaker-0 (01:08:58.196)
and defend it. And I think those very basic skills, advocacy, research, writing, I think those are really the core elements that law school teaches you. A good law school does. And by doing that, I you can translate that into a lot of different professions where you have to advocate for yourself or somebody else.
where you have to be well written, where you have to know how to effectively write and present your case, your position, whatever it is that you're doing. You have to be able to find the answers to things. I was explaining this to somebody else how, if you remember our first year of law school,
So for researching precedent on cases and if it's good precedent or bad precedent. We had shepherdizing, which was LexisNexis' trademarked. I forget what Westlaw's was, I always, shepherdizing is kind of like...
speaker-1 (01:10:01.838)
way of marketing.
speaker-0 (01:10:11.054)
You know, it's it's the polo shirt even though you know polo was Ralph Lauren. Yeah, anybody calls a collared shirt polo shirt Yeah, you call it shepherdizing You know that was just recently online when we were starting out, but we still had to learn to do it with the books We're probably the last law school class to have to do that. Yeah and But at the same time, I mean, it's a skill. It's a skill to Get in the weeds and dig up the answer
speaker-1 (01:10:19.083)
if you are.
speaker-0 (01:10:41.056)
And I think that that's something that people might take for granted or might overlook in what law school teaches you how to do. You've got to find the answer to a lot of things and it might be right in front of you, might not be.
speaker-1 (01:10:53.09)
Yeah, one thing I liked about law school that people will say, well, like with going back to research, now we have AI and now we everything at our fingertips. That's true. But you still have to go to fact check. That is true. The one thing I liked about it is the things you can't research that you have to spontaneously and in the moment come up with and problem solve and react and respond to.
speaker-0 (01:11:11.982)
you
speaker-1 (01:11:18.988)
That's a human thing. Like you can't sit there and be like, me five seconds, you know, you're going to have to be able to think on your feet. And that's not just a law school thing. That's an everyday life thing. You're going to have to be over, have to overcome things. And it's not law school. It's not the only platform that teaches you that, but it helps you become comfortable in the uncomfortable and like, I don't know the answer. Okay.
Calm down, think about it. And you might not have the best answer, but learning to think on your feet, being uncomfortable and knowing that you don't know every answer, but as long as you have some knowledge about it, you can make an informed argument.
speaker-0 (01:11:50.03)
response.
speaker-0 (01:12:02.606)
Sure. Well, takes you to be prepared. Yep. Because if you're not prepared in law school, you get called out for it.
speaker-1 (01:12:09.358)
That's true. I definitely was not prepared a little bit. I think most people will agree with that. So one question I always ask people, if you could see one person sit down with me, and this is obviously an infancy of my podcasting, who knows where it goes. Is there anyone that you would like me to see? But caveat is you have to get, help me get them on this podcast with.
speaker-0 (01:12:32.652)
me. Boy, that's a tough one.
speaker-1 (01:12:39.342)
And I can't take care of it for that, stole it from another podcast called All the Smoke.
speaker-0 (01:12:43.36)
I'd have to think about that.
speaker-1 (01:12:45.63)
We'll put in a gap and then you come back to it. Okay Last few questions and I also stole these from some people Five dinner guests past present future who you haven't at your dinner table
speaker-0 (01:13:00.974)
Steve Jobs, always, he always had a new way of looking at things. obviously, while he may not have invented a lot of the things that are commonly known Apple products of past, present, future.
He wasn't the first to invent the computer, wasn't the first to invent a phone, but he found a way to take what was there and turn it into something that everybody wanted. There's something neat about his vision on that.
In that light, I'd probably team that up with Elon Musk. I think he'd be a very interesting guy to just listen to. Yeah, but he is, he kind of has that same visionary trait about him. Sure. You know, and be on the forefront of both electric cars, space travel.
speaker-1 (01:13:51.488)
I don't think you'd be talking much.
speaker-1 (01:14:06.926)
Thanks.
speaker-0 (01:14:09.344)
as well. There's a lot going on there and he's a forward thinker. that's kind of interesting. It'd be fun to hear the two of them talk on a level playing field.
speaker-1 (01:14:15.406)
percent.
speaker-1 (01:14:21.207)
You
Would you be able to follow them though if they were talking?
speaker-0 (01:14:27.736)
Maybe, maybe not, but I mean, just to be a fly on the wall, if we're gonna play make believe, that'd be awesome. And then that gets me thinking, all right, well, visionary people are people who are really methodical in what they thought about and planning and that sort of thing. I think back to like founding fathers.
And a lot of people might be going, Washington or Jefferson. To be honest, I actually like James Madison. And the reason being is this guy, not sole credit by any means, but he was a driving force behind our Constitution, which if you
speaker-1 (01:15:01.194)
architect.
speaker-1 (01:15:12.886)
You call him the architect of the Constitution.
speaker-0 (01:15:15.32)
father. And if you read through it, mean, it's a, you take the obvious, you know, slavery references and everything else aside, it's a pretty ingenious document in how it lays things out both in its, its vagueness in purposeful parts and specificity and others. And it's just, it would be someone that had that kind of insight to think of things
that we're going to happen years later. It'd be interesting to hear his take on where we're at now and is that what they were envisioning?
speaker-1 (01:15:57.998)
My counterpart to him was I don't want to talk to Hamilton.
speaker-0 (01:16:01.77)
Hamilton would be interesting too. I mean, he was one of the he was one of the three Federalist paper papers authors the other being John Jay. Yeah. But yeah, him too. He was very pivotal in that time. And it'd be very interesting to hear their take on where we're at now, because they're the ones who really crafted or helped steer the crafting of the document that you know, lot of people say we've got various crises on these days. So but yeah, so that'd be
speaker-1 (01:16:04.47)
use the other.
speaker-0 (01:16:31.436)
That'd three. I'd want to lighten it up. One of my favorite comedians is Jerry Seinfeld. He's kind of a no-nonsense, everyday stuff. He'd be fun for a little, lighten it up a little bit. then, I've always liked music. I've always liked movie scores. Somebody who I think is just brilliant.
brilliant mind composer of our day and just to kind of pick his brain on how do you come up with these ideas of Hans Zimmer? Wow. I really like, you know, he's written so many scores that have really impactful memories for people just in movies that they've seen.
speaker-1 (01:17:07.726)
because
speaker-1 (01:17:13.198)
Probably the most unknown name that's so famous. You know what mean?
speaker-0 (01:17:18.67)
So, I mean, it would be fun to just hear his process.
speaker-1 (01:17:22.482)
I don't think Hans Zimmer will ever be answering that question again, but I think that's truly a good because like music is so So pivotal and the score is so pivotal and yeah, I mean they get credit but they don't get the credit They are all the other people. Yeah, so I think that's a really awesome answer I was walking around your house earlier. No, I was a travel a lot places I'm gonna know you still Well, you'll get back I won't say best but top
speaker-0 (01:17:47.79)
you
speaker-1 (01:17:51.928)
top two places you've traveled to.
speaker-0 (01:17:54.734)
Boy, I'd go back to the Amalfi Coast in a heartbeat. That's a special place.
I really enjoyed the south of Spain too. know you and I were talking about that earlier off camera. There's just something special about the food, the culture, the architecture. You've got moreish influence in the buildings and the tiles and a mosque that was there for hundreds of years that has a Catholic church right in the middle of it.
speaker-1 (01:18:30.464)
Yeah, it's number one.
speaker-0 (01:18:31.79)
It's a neat, it's just a neat place.
speaker-1 (01:18:35.086)
Yeah, it's like the confluence of so many cultures that, you know, can't speak to the history of it, but it's there.
speaker-0 (01:18:42.286)
And it's beautiful. But yeah, I've always been a big fan of Europe. You know, I spent, I've had the good fortune of having been over there several times through, you know, throughout my life so far. And I'd love to go back. It's really neat just to see the culture over there. And, you know, obviously, a lot of that culture is too tied to where my ancestry comes from. Yeah, it's most predominantly over there.
speaker-1 (01:19:09.934)
It's neat to kind of It still goes with the middle name. I forgot the middle name.
speaker-0 (01:19:13.294)
That's a little south of there, but yeah.
speaker-1 (01:19:17.71)
So as we wrap up, if there's one message you could let people know that either has impacted you or that you live by that you could broadcast to people, what is that one piece of advice that you want to impart on your children, other people, and just make sure that it gets out?
speaker-0 (01:19:45.836)
I would say don't be afraid to fail and don't be afraid of growing and improving.
I'll quit.
speaker-1 (01:19:57.804)
Always be, always learn. Well, you know, man, I can't think of a better way to wrap this up. I want to thank you. I think your father's legacy is in excellent hands and I am grateful for you taking the opportunity to talk to me. This was excellent and hopefully we get to do this again soon.
speaker-0 (01:19:59.619)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (01:20:19.202)
Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
speaker-1 (01:20:23.16)
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Quirky Podcast. I hope you enjoyed diving into another inspiring journey and found some nuggets of wisdom to take with you. If you love this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss a conversation. You can find all our episodes on your favorite podcast platforms and on YouTube. Until next time, stay curious, be inspired, and keep carving your own unique path. Catch you on the next episode of Quirky Podcast.