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Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story f the what and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict people. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, educational programs and classes, all to do with high conflict. Today we're going to be talking about high conflict surprises, such as starting a new position and discovering only after you've begun that there's a high conflict person who's turning everyone against you or marrying into a family only to be unpleasantly surprised by high conflict person who isolates you and makes you feel unwelcome, targets your marriage, turns the rest of the family against you. We also talk about what group high conflict is, is there such a thing? The goal today is to discuss the can, the ensuing self-doubt and confusion. When you find yourself in a situation like this, it's debilitating. It can leave a person feeling alone, feeling isolated, attacked, and feeling very unsure and unsteady. We'll talk about what it feels like and what to do during or after such an occurrence or even how to protect yourself from this in advance if that's possible. So we'll find out.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Couple new things. I think we mentioned this in the last episode, but we have a new class for an online class for couples, new ways for couples and families, and it's for any couples who want to strengthen the relationship or you really struggling in that relationship. Then this class could teach you the four big skills that might help you hold it together. We also have conflict influencer.com about to launch in three weeks time, so very excited about that, that we'll have a lot more information in the coming weeks about that. But those lakes will be in the show notes and we hope you'll come stop by and take a look. We want you to also know we really appreciate all of our listeners, and it's so exciting to be on the road and hear from you and meet you and just get to know you.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So thank you for listening. We truly, truly do appreciate it. So Bill, one of the worst experiences in one's life can be when you're in unexpectedly thrown into a high conflict situation, you're going through life, going along through your day or your job or you're starting a new job and you have expectations that I think we have expectations that we're not going to run into high conflict. Sometimes we might know, but I think most often we aren't looking for it, aren't expecting it, and we probably should all the time, but I think our human nature wants us to not be looking for the negative and being so skeptical every day and we just want to have a nice time. But that's not reality, right? That's not realistic. So we really get taken by surprise sometimes, and you may be in a new job in a company, work really hard to get this new position.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It comes with a higher salary. You move across the country or even across the city in order because you bought a new house. Now you can afford this Mark Bessett house or whatever the case may be. And then after the shine wears off, high, conflict comes out, kind of wears its ugly head and all that public niceness in the beginning soon wears off and you find yourself in quite a dilemma. So I remember years and years ago you mentioning that sometimes when you'd have a client in a legal case, when you would walk away at the end of the day feeling maybe unsteady or unsure, I can't remember your exact words, but just like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this job anymore, that perhaps you were around. I remember that. Yeah. So tell us what was that experience?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I can tell you more specifically. I was driving home after about 10 years as a lawyer with 12 years as a therapist before that, and I was driving home thinking, no, I'm not very good at my job. I don't really know what I'm doing. And I said, wait a minute. Why am I being hard on myself? I've been doing this for 10 years. Oh, I must
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Have had a narcissist my caseload today, and I remember working back, yes, at 10 o'clock I had a new client to represent him in his divorce, very narcissistic, telling me how superior he was, implying that I probably didn't know a lot
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Because he knew so much. And I remember thinking to myself, wait a minute, that's what narcissists do. They put people down because they're trying to put themselves up and because I believe all humans are equal, we just have different strengths and weaknesses, but no human being is a superior human being. So to be a narcissist and see yourself as a superior human being means you have to put other people down to make it look like you're superior. And I remember feeling that way, and part of that person's impression of me was that I just couldn't know very much because they were so brilliant,
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Smartest person in the room covering the world.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
That's right, that's right. Well, some people talk about narcissists as sucking all the air out of the room that no one really else can exist for them except for them, and that they can't acknowledge the existence of other people. It's interesting because I was able to keep working with that client and figured out how to manage him, but I had to remind myself each time, bill, it's not about you. It's not about you. Just remember that. Just stick with the plan of how to manage him and get tasks done. But you're right, that can be quite a surprise. And if you're not looking for that, you don't know where it really comes from and you're questioning yourself. That's why I remember the end of that day, it took me really reflecting back and then it all clicked into place. Of course, he was implying, I don't know anything, and I'm driving home feeling like I don't know anything and wondering where did that come from?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So what did you feel like doing in those moments and in the meetings? I mean, I think our human nature wants to say, Hey, stop it. You're not smart.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I'm sure, because occasionally this happens, I'll be giving a presentation and someone will ask a challenging question and my first response is defensive. You're wrong. That's not true what you're saying. And then I've learned as quickly as I can to be able to say, yeah, that's a good question. And I even wondered about that when I started out with this business and it turned out that these are actually methods that work. So I appreciate your skepticism and that's fine, but I'm pretty confident this is what works after thousands of cases and consultations. But I think my first thought driving home that day was, well, I should just quit, but I didn't that I went back the next day and I think recouping and just that one phrase, my favorite phrase is it's not about me. And that's really true.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, it is true. What's interesting and funny, I guess, I dunno if funny is the right word, but what happens in our minds is it's hard to remember that in that moment. Now, if we say it in that moment that this is happening, it's tricky, first of all because it kind of comes in a progression. It's not like you immediately think, oh, I'm dealing with a narcissist. Unless you're doing this every day and you get used to it. But if you're not used to being around that narcissistic individual, I think you had unprepared for it. And so it takes a bit to catch on. So at first you're thinking, well, if I just explain myself a little bit more, if I just get into the concept with more detail or I show a little bit more research, or I just try to do my job better, all these, now I've taken that on me, which should be the first red flag. That should be the first tell that, Hey, I'm dealing with something different here. Now I know for myself, I'm one who will, I'm just going to try to do better instead of taking that cue, I'll get better at this. And then there's just kind of an incongruence there. It gets worse instead of getting better. The harder I try, the worse that you can,
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right? Because not about you, and that's the irony. You're trying to do better, but that's not the issue. The issue is their lens doesn't acknowledge your existence, so it doesn't matter how you do, they have to criticize you in order to stay up.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It makes it worse. If I'm trying to do better, that will incite the narcissism even further. So then I need to be put down even more, right?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
If you do do better and better, then they have to work harder to be superior to this person who's actually not very inferior after all.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Right? I guess the progression of realizing that, okay, I'm, I'm going to work really hard. I'm going to do better at this. I'm going to just try harder. They'll get it and they'll see I'm doing a great job and I have confidence and all of that, and then it gets worse, and then you start to doubt yourself, and then it just keeps progressing and marching along and you dread start to dread that next interaction, that next meeting, that next whenever it is, you have to deal with this person or percent. And it can be very demoralizing. And I think depending on your background, on your level of resilience, perhaps, perhaps this can impact people in different depths, meaning someone who's truly very confident and sees this coming and says, look, it's not about me, and is able to stick with it and maybe set some limits, right? Then it's probably not so bad. But if you're someone who's trying really hard and maybe you've dealt with people like this in the past and it's kind of hard on you to put up the good fight, so to speak, not that we're saying anyone needs to be fighting, but you're trying to survive a high conflict attack of some sort. It can be really, really hard to recover from.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And I think I talk about having in my back pocket a few of these sayings, it's not about me. I'm not responsible for their outcome. I can't change how they think. I talk about having them in my back pocket. So when I am caught by surprise, I can go, wait, wait, what was I trying to remember? Oh yeah, it's not about, so I mean, some might even want to write it down and put it in their back pocket, especially if you know you're facing a difficult situation. The thing I find helps me after my mind goes blank is to think of the cars method that we teach that are connecting, how can I connect with this person? And what I've found sometimes, I remember one seminar, someone raised their hand says, bill, this will never work with our clients. And I wanted to argue with them and said, I've worked with a lot of different clients and this has been helpful most cases.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And I think I remember starting to say that and said, wait a minute. I used to think that way too. I appreciate your question. I think you're really thinking about the right things. How can I make this work with my clients? I respect your thinking, and I used to feel that way too, but I learned this stuff does seem to work, so let me explain it in as much depth as I can. And then you decide what you want to do with it. But since we're here, why don't we just walk through some of what I have experienced would work? And so I think that helps calm the person because I was giving them respect. And by the way, with narcissists, they really like the word respect. So if you can think of something you can respect, I respect that question. I respect your concerns, I respect the work you do, those kinds of things. So that's the connecting. Then analyzing options, let's look at what we can do. I think I've learned partly as a mediator, having lawyers come to mediation saying that I'm not doing it right.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And you know what? This is my method and if you want to work with me, this is my method. So it's up to you, it's your choice, but if you want to work with me, this is my method. You're already here, but it's up to you. And they're kind of like, well, we'll see. And then they follow the method. So it helped me, I think, be more prepared when I do get attacked or criticized like this. And then the R responding to any misinformation, you may not be aware, but I've actually done this method with a thousand people, and most of them, maybe 90% have reached agreements. So I'd say give this a shot.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
And then the S setting limits, and we've been talking about this more lately, setting limits also needs to have imposing consequences, otherwise they don't take it seriously. So you have to say what the consequence is. You're going to need to make a decision. If you want to go through with working with me, listening to this seminar or whatever, then you're going to need to let me proceed. It's up to you. If you don't let me proceed, then I'll just have to stop and see what the group wants. And that's another thing. If I'm giving a seminar and one person, ah, this won't work, blah, blah, blah. Well tell you what, let me see if the group wants to hear what I have to say. And then that's
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Really good.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Two people raise their hands. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's really
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Good and proceed. So that's a setting where it's an imposing consequence
Speaker 1 (15:33):
That's so hard to think about in the moment, especially in a group when you're standing in front of a group. So because if it goes on long enough, the self-doubt can really creep in and it creeps in. It was kind of a slow creek, and you just keep going on and on. Guess you're used to working well with 95%, 99% of clients that you work with or groups or what coworkers, whatever the case may be. It kind of slips in there and sneaks in there. And by the time you think of kind of figure out what you're dealing with, then you have to figure out what to do. And we talk about this all the time, what do you do in these situations? And it's not always clear cut when you're on the spot. It's tough. For example, if you're doing a training bill, and I guess the question would be sometimes you have just one person who's really doubting you.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And I think about a trainer I saw many years ago, like 20 years ago, and she handled something so well where she had wines to center in the audience who was really giving her a hard time. And she finally stopped, pivoted, looked him in the eyes and said, sir, if you have a question for me, please just ask it and I'll do my best to answer it. If you don't have a question, I'm going to continue amplify a presentation. So that's one thing you can grab onto. But what happens if this spreads to the rest of the group? What would she have done if several people now are, and I remember even that particular training, there was a group toward the back who all had their newspapers up. This is back before the news is on your screen, and they had the newspapers up and they're reading as she's starting her training and doing a really fabulous job. She had an amazing training. Eventually the newspapers came down as they kind of listened and it grabbed their attention. But I've seen this happen where someone can really, there may be more than one narcissist in the room, number one,
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And then you have or in the office or in the office or in the family. And when that, it kind of spreads, number one. And I think it emboldened some who maybe are on the traits of narcissism. They like to be on that bandwagon or they just want to be a part of it. And then others who just want to be neutral, and then others who are intimidated by those who have the loud voices. So it can be altogether, if you bundle that, it can create a lot of self doubt in anyone. So I think of a person who recently started a brand new job and was so excited. It was the first time this company had had this particular department that he had been hired to run. They'd never had this department. He thought he was going to come in and he built other great programs and other companies and thought he could do the same here.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Had a ton of confidence, which is fantastic. He had all the skills and then gets in there. And there's one high conflict person who started just one by one turning people against him. So he was isolated, he was alone and feeling attacked even at company events. And so it's very infectious and you don't want to be that negative advocate, but so many people ultimately become that negative advocate. So the self-doubt then is there. And I guess that's the big question here is I think probably a common threat through all high conflict, whatever scenario layout situation you're in, self-doubt is a common threat.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So overcoming that is really the biggest deal. You and I hear about this all the time, so I know I've kind of got all over the place, but it's creeping in and you just don't see it coming. You don't catch it, but the self, at the same time, you're feeling that self doubt. So how do youer yourself? I know one thing that helps me and that I've helped a lot of people with this, and I've heard it back from them after they've tried it. It's just to remind yourself that you've done this before, make crimes, or you have lots of friends who you don't feel this way around. You don't feel like you have to explain yourself, defend yourself, or quit your job. So why is this one different? Has anything changed about me or the way I'm doing things? We should all have a moment of self-reflection. Did I do something to screw something up? Have I whatever? Right? That's okay. But when it's so different from all of the other occurrences in your life, similar occurrences, then it might not be about you and you have to remind yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think that's key when it's so different. And that's where I think about the 90% rule, which is I made it up, but what I've experienced, and you and others have reinforced this idea, is 90% of people would never do some of the things that this person's doing, personal attacks or undermining someone at work or stealing some of their materials or equipment or claiming credit for what someone else is saying or saying, I could do this so much better than he can. Dealing with someone like that. 90% of people don't go around talking like that. And so I find that also helps me is okay, this is a high conflict person, so I need, rather than being befuddled and confused, which happened for 20 or 30 years, is being able to go, this is unusual. This person, 90% of people wouldn't do this. Which to me says, I'm dealing with a high conflict person and I know how to deal with high conflict people. I'm going to go through finding a way to connect and give 'em a bunch of respect, analyze their options, respond and respond to misinformation and set limits and impose consequences. So I think it's getting quicker at making that shift, but it's still getting caught by surprise. I think you're right. That's when all your defenses aren't ready and it takes a few minutes or days to recover.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, and distance probably. And physical
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Distance.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Physical distance. So I mean, if you work remotely, you might have a little bit better go at it, but you have to walk into that office every day and face someone. It is pretty demoralizing and destabilizing and decompensating. There's lots of Ds here where you can feel like you are just not, I guess, able to go forward, I guess proceed a step forward with the confidence you had yesterday or a week ago or in your last job.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Where I think about this is when you're new on the job is when you're most vulnerable to this because you don't know the culture, the rules, et cetera. And I remember one of my first jobs as a social worker, I don't want to tell you how many decades ago it was,
Speaker 2 (23:18):
But I worked at a social work agency and my office was in this little tiny office with two desks, and my supervisor was next to me, and then there was my desk. She was absolutely a high conflict person. I actually outlasted her on the job, but she had few positive words to say, negative words, telling me negative things about of the organization, this, that, and the other thing. And she said, I am going to be probably an hour late tomorrow, but don't tell anybody. Just tell them you've already seen me and that I'm there and I just stepped out for a
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Or
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Something wanting me to lie for her. And I mean, I'm trying to establish myself and keep this job
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Day one.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Fortunately, I never lied for her, but I think she was gone about six months from when I started there. And it really taught me that my gut feeling that this is wrong was correct. And then learning the whole agency and social work agencies have a whole range of people. A lot of nonprofits seem to be more tolerant of some high conflict people, but they're mostly really good people committed to the community, committed to the task at hand and find those people and make friends with the good people because there's more good people than difficult people. But it can be confusing. And when you're going into a new job, have your antenna up for high conflict behavior, there's a good chance it isn't about you.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, I think any new situation, friend, group, relationship, family, job, you have a new client, clients, I mean anyone could be high conflict and there could be high conflict going on somewhere. Maybe a big situation that's been created by high conflict person that you walk into and just get smacked to the face with it and you become the target unwittingly. And I think we see this over and over. And so you're taking it on yourself thinking that it's me, I'm doing something wrong. And then you finally figure out that, okay, it's not me. I've walked into what I call a high conflict trap, right? We've walked in and there's a whole lot of things going on that have been going on for a while, and it wasn't about you, but maybe you were hired by someone who's the target blame in a high conflict situation. Now what do you do about that? It isn't about you at all, but yet you're now associated with the target.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Do you want to explain target of blame? Because we hadn't brought that up yet, and some people may not have heard of that and they may be in that position.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah. Well, good question, bill. Since you're the person in the world who came up with the terminology, I'll answer that. In every high conflict situation, there's a target of blame because the high conflict individual feels that something making them feel uncomfortable or something doesn't go the way is coming from an external source. And that's you. And you become the target of blame. And often they will pull other people in as their negative advocates. They are the victim of you, the target of blame, it's all your fault. That's the name of our podcast. And then often we'll see them take the group of negative advocates and try to convince a decision maker that it's all your fault in some way, whether it's law enforcement or a boss or a court or something like that. So being the target of blame is a horrible place to be for people.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And it's also not about you. It's like high conflict. People have to have that high conflict. People don't exist without targets of blame.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
It's not optional.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yes. And people say, can they have more than one target of blame? Say Absolutely. Because if you're working with them, you may become the next target of blame. This is how they operate. It's like you say, Megan, their operating system is different from most people, and it includes targets of blame and negative advocates. Like you said,
Speaker 1 (28:00):
It's hard enough when you are faced with one high conflict individual, when it becomes a larger group that turns against you. And look, I go back to fifth or sixth grade. I remember a girl in my class turns a whole class against me, which happens in middle school and junior high and high school that supposedly somebody found a note that I'd written about a boy that somebody else had a crush on. Ridiculous. And they isolated me for, I don't know, it seemed like a lifetime at age 12, but it was probably just maybe two or three days. But no one played with me at recess and no one slept with me in the Oh my
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Goodness.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, poor me. But I remember thinking to myself, there's got to be a solution to this, and it can't be that I just remain isolated the rest of my life. This is kind of miserable. And when you're young, it does seem like it's probably will last the rest of your life. So I said to the ringleader, it's like, look, I think I'll have my parents call all of your parents and the teacher and we'll have a meeting after school
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Already meetings.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I know, I know. Imagine age 12. I was doing that already. But I set a limit basically with doing that and imposed a consequence or threatened to impose a consequence. And they were all my friends within five minutes.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That's a great thing about being 12 years old before the internet.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
So that didn't spread around the universe and back again.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Oh, I can't imagine. I bet what it's like nowadays.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
But that was good. That was good. I think people aren't sure what to do and find a way to set a limit and have a consequence. The consequence of this is we're going to call all your parents and at 12, that gets people's attention.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, it does. It does. And then in adult life, you get a group that turns and it can become vicious. So those of you out there who are listening, who've been in a situation like this, whether it's one person or it's a group, it's tough. So do what Bill said and remind yourself, it's not about me. You'll get that. Just check yourself. If 90% of my other conversations, my other experiences, my other colleagues, my other clients, my whatevers are different than this must be investigated. This isn't about me. I'm not the problem here. So I have to figure out what to do. So anyway, fun times. But I hope this is, we both COVID, it's been helpful to you, our listeners. We know that these are tough situations and I mean, they're probably some of the worst and hardest on us, that we grow a lot from them. And the next time maybe we're a little bit better prepared and have a little bit thicker skin.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And just remember, if someone says it's all your fault, it's not.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It's not. Right. How could it be? How could it be?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
And that's the theme here. You'll say, what's the theme of that podcast we listened to? Oh, that's right. It's all your fault. And it's not.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Just don't let it get to you. Don't let the angry two up. Don't let it make you depressed. Don't let it be a huge gut punch that lasts forever. Talk to somebody. Get a second perspective or something and it should help. Anyway, thank you for listening today. We hope it has been helpful to you. We'll put some links in the show notes to some articles and some of the folks that Bill's written, keep learning or practicing the skills. Give us a hit that like button if you are watching on YouTube or leave a comment or review wherever you've listening to podcast, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and all while we try to keep the conference small and find the missing piece.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.