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Paula Caligiuri, PhD, is CEO and, with Andy Palmer, co-founder of Skiilify, a public benefit corporation dedicated to helping people build professional success.
Caligiuri and Palmer co-authored the new bestselling career guide, Live for a Living.
We discuss:
- Career planning for a happier life. Where to start?
- Making happiness an integrated part of your career
- Personal values — using them for life and career
- How to identify ideal career
- Arthur C. Brooks, Harvard Kennedy School and Harvard Business School: Careers today are more unpredictable than ever before; the book shows how it should be a source of excitement, not dread
- In order to get results we haven’t gotten before, we have to do something we haven’t done before
- Practical advice for starting a new career path
Find Live for a Living on Amazon.
Links to resources mentioned in the episode:
About today’s guests
Paula Caligiuri, PhD, is a DMSB Distinguished Professor of International Business and Strategy at Northeastern University and has authored numerous award-winning articles and books on multicultural effectiveness, global careers, and fostering cultural ability. She is the CEO and, with Andy Palmer, co-founder of Skiilify, a public benefit corporation dedicated to helping people build professional success. Follow her on LinkedIn
About the host
Ross Romano is a co-founder of the Be Podcast Network and CEO of September Strategies, a coaching and consulting firm that helps organizations and high-performing leaders in the K-12 education industry communicate their vision and make strategic decisions that lead to long-term success. Connect on Twitter @RossBRomano or https://www.linkedin.com/in/rossromano
I also host Sideline Sessions, a podcast for coaches and parents of student-athletes. The show features conversations with coaches and performance experts in the NFL, NBA, NCAA, Olympics, and more. Listen here: https://bit.ly/3Rp0QGt
Creators & Guests
What is The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders?
Are you looking for proven ideas to increase your influence, hire and develop an excellent staff, build a stronger culture, lead meaningful change, and form a strong foundation for learning and leadership success? This is the podcast for you.
Whether you're a leader to seeks to refine your command of core educational strategies, learn new management techniques from those who have used them at some of the world's largest corporations, gain fresh perspectives on personal development or student success from practitioners across fields, or a little bit of everything, you'll find powerful content on The Authority.
Join leadership coach, storytelling strategist, and edtech advisor Ross Romano as he interviews the prominent education authors you already admire, up-and-coming voices, and experts from the worlds of business, personal development, and beyond — including Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and Amazon bestsellers — to take a deep dive into their wealth of practical insights.
Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in, everybody. You are listening to the Authority Podcast on the Be Podcast Network. It is our pleasure, as always, to have you here for the show, and what should be another really good conversation focused around a lot of topics that I am certain a lot of you are Thinking about, grappling with, trying to find answers around.
So I hope this is really valuable for you. My guest today is Paula Caligari, PhD. She is at DMSB. Distinguished Professor of International Business and Strategy at Northeastern University. Paula has authored a number of award winning articles and books on multicultural effectiveness, global careers, and fostering cultural agility.
She is the CEO and, along with Andy Palmer, the co founder of Skillify, a public benefit corporation. And they collaborated on the book that we're talking about today, which is called Live for a Living. So, Paula, welcome to the show.
Paula Caligiuri: Ross, thank you for having me.
Ross Romano: I'd love to start here with kind of a [00:01:00] big picture question, which is what's the big idea of this book?
Paula Caligiuri: Sure. The big idea is that we need to own our own careers. Too many people get really passive once they land in a job, and they kind of let either HR, their managers, or headhunters decide what their next opportunity will be, and we just can't do that anymore. Fulfillment is the goal.
Ross Romano: Have you noticed, are there any trends or factors associated, I guess, with people who are at a certain stage, who are certainly into their careers, right? Whether that's the first several years or mid career or so associated with whether or not People kind of have the feeling of more or less ownership over their career, or even like the expectation that they should have ownership.
Is there any factors that kind of seem to associate with that?
Paula Caligiuri: Yeah, I think staging is really an important way to phrase that because I think in universities, [00:02:00] You know, we do a good job helping students kind of navigate into their majors and helping them network with alums and networking career services and do all the things that they need to do to land the first job.
What we might not do particularly well is prepare them for what comes next. So what do you do when you're in that first job? What are you supposed to be trying? What are you supposed to be learning about yourself? What are you supposed to be doing to kind of prepare yourself for the next? That's the next phase.
So I think, you know, where I see kind of the entry level folks differentiate is around when they walk into that first job, whether they have kind of a career mindset or a job mindset. And when they have the job mindset, they tend to sort of just kind of spin their wheels around and around for a while in the same role until they get frustrated and then kind of look elsewhere.
When they move on to that next stage what I see, especially these are folks who have been out for, let's say, Five to 10 years. Again, there's a pivot point when [00:03:00] some who are at that point kind of let sort of wait passively for their manager or HR or headhunters to say, okay, we think you'd be good for the this role.
And at that point, people get kind of excited that they're getting, you know, called on, if you will, like, wow, they want me. Without remembering that, you know, career service or not career services, but HR and headhunters, they make their money. They make their chops off of putting the person who's best qualified into that role that may or may not be the thing that's next.
best for you for your next career move. And so what I see really where that group pivots is the group that's able to kind of say, you know what, no, this is what I want to be doing versus those who kind of just passively allow others to dictate what's coming next. (ad here)
Ross Romano: Yeah, that's and that touches on a point that I think is important, you know, a word [00:04:00] that certainly is going to. I believe come up a lot, probably, in my questions and thinking around this is creation, right, around creating the career that you want, creating the opportunities that you want. And a big part of that, as you said, you know, HR's job is to put the most qualified people in positions.
It's Being a really high level performer so that you will then create opportunities to come out of that and and hopefully navigating to the point now where through one, gaining a new perspective on the economy, the workforce, the job market, the different types of opportunities that are available and some trends in the way that's changing.
That can be more of a balanced, mutually beneficial dynamic, right? I think many people, you know, most people probably become accustomed to a dynamic that's associated with [00:05:00] what they experience in their early career. So at times when it's a tougher. economy, a tougher job market. It's more one sided toward the employer.
It's that buyer's market where it's harder to get a fulfilling and lucrative job. And then you feel like you just have to do a great work just to keep that job, right? And it's just to maintain the status quo. Sometimes when the economy is really booming or we saw Over the past few years especially with younger people entering the workforce that had more mobility and more opportunities that there's a successful way to do that and an unsuccessful way that you still have to.
Create great value for the place where you are, but also you can be planning ahead for the next steps. But hopefully get to that mutually beneficial place where, look, wherever you are in your career you're doing great work. You're becoming indispensable, but through doing that, right, [00:06:00] creating more opportunities for what your next move may be advancement within your organization, a move to a different type of career.
But where does that, I guess, planning began. The thing I love about this topic in addition to its timeliness with our audience, we're gonna, we have people who certainly are thinking about this as it applies to their own careers, but also who are Teaching and developing the next generation of those who are going to enter the workforce and maybe enter it with different thoughts around how they want to plan their careers and their lives.
And the book writes about career planning for a happier life. So I want to ask you where does that start, right? Are we starting with Defining what that happier life is. Are we starting with understanding career? What's the starting point?
Paula Caligiuri: Wow, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot in that, right? So I think for those who are in the, on the education side it's definitely beneficial to [00:07:00] encourage students to think of themselves as lifelong learners that this is, as you described, right, as we talk about in the book, it's a journey, it's not a job, it's not, you're not in it, and then therefore, you know, kind of you're done with.
with the lift on helping you unfold your career. You really do want to keep thinking about refreshing your skills. So I think there's kind of a mindset shift that we can begin at the university level, training students on how to almost reframe the relationship with their career as one that they constantly stay in control with.
And they stay in control kind of in a number of ways. The, so one way is what you described initially, right? It's that idea that. Even in the best job market, even if you could get a job tomorrow at another place, wherever you are, you want to be sure you are giving that organization the best of yourself, which is the not in the whole self kind of issue but like the best of your work, right?
So you want to make sure you're in a [00:08:00] critical role in a, in your skills are unique to that role. You want to make sure you're reliable. You want to make sure that you're providing value and the work that you do is excellent. So we talk about that in the book as we call it curve, right? Critical, unique, actually reliable, valuable, and excellent.
So everywhere you go, regardless of the market, you want to make sure that's what you're giving your employer. But in the process, you also want to make sure that while you're doing those things, you're also, you're giving yourself and asking for the opportunities so that you can gain the most from the experience that you're in.
So you become a sponge, you're gaining the skills that you want that fit with the path that you've set out for yourself, and then understanding when you've sort of reached The point when you're not really going to grow anymore in that role and when to, you know, tack over to another opportunity that will help you grow and move you [00:09:00] closer to your career journey.
So regardless of the market, you cannot go wrong remaining, you know, with those true to those five. Fundamentals of being employed while also sort of thinking about the next move and then kind of wrapped up in that is the understanding of other life priorities, whether it's you know, your family dynamic, whether you want to stay in a certain location whatever that might be.
Your, how you value work in your life, those are also really critical and also really critical for us to be instructing students when they're still in, in college to help them understand that these are things that, that might morph over the years the values and priorities.
Ross Romano: Yeah, it's One of those things that it's doable, right? It takes it's it is evolving and I think with any decision around A specific job opportunity or a career we each reserve the right to [00:10:00] change our minds over time as more information becomes available and certainly with respect to what are our goals personally in our lives with, you know, whether it's family or other endeavors or interests or whatever it may be that we may have a very different idea of what that is.
in our 20s versus our 40s versus our 60s, right? And that may lead to different ideas of what careers should look like over time. Are there certain specific areas that You look to have people investigate. I, you know, a good thing about it, it's, this kind of defines the why. It the end of the subtitle of the book is Work Happier, not Harder.
And a lot of people have obviously heard the work Smarter, not Harder, but it kind of defines the why. in that. Well, why are we looking to have more control over the way we work or be more efficient or, you know, adapt and adjust things? [00:11:00] Well, it's so that we can create happiness in that additional space.
But I, I almost think that there's probably some people who I would say, well, what does that mean almost? Or is this really one conversation because it's, it has in a lot of times seemed so antagonistic between work and life to say, actually, you know, you can set priorities and goals and then plan off of that.
Paula Caligiuri: right, right. Well, we honor in the book and we have some free resources that people can do self assessments on and I'm happy to offer those, but The reality is you have to honor wherever we are on the continuum on work centrality, work values, not everyone is career oriented, and that's totally cool.
That is absolutely fine that you don't want to sort of have your work life sort of dominate a big sphere in order for you to be happy, but what you do need to do is recognize that [00:12:00] so that you can put yourself into an income generating activity, right? That minimally is in a context that you enjoy. So, so part of it, part of the, you know, why we talked about working, you know, happier, not harder, is that you kind of need to understand your values before you can kind of move it forward.
But you also need to understand those. You need to understand your talents, how you like to work, how you, what you, how you don't want to work. So many people really don't do that. They never sort of stop to think about that. They kind of go from landing on a major to landing in a job. The job then moving them, kind of pushing them into other opportunities, and then, you know, they get a call or get frustrated and move to another opportunity without ever sort of stopping and taking the time saying, okay, what is it about myself that that puts me into a state of flow or gives me a sense of fulfillment or [00:13:00] gives me a source of pride or gives me, you know, joy, or what's the context that I want to work in, even if I just want the paycheck and I want it to be a minimal sphere of my life.
What's the context that, that. that I can make those hours of the day kind of the best they can be without having to dominate any other part of my life. So we really do honor the fact that idea of work life overlap or work centrality is different for everyone.
Ross Romano: Right. And likewise in really approaching this and looking at it head on and making intentional proactive decisions about it communicates the fact that it's okay for someone to make their decision anywhere along that spectrum. If somebody really encounters. Their career and their other life goals and says, you know what, my highest priority goals are around career and this is what I'm prioritizing, then that becomes an [00:14:00] intentional plan and can be, you can be more successful in your career when you've made that declaration and said, this is what's important to me and this is what I want to pursue at this point.
And it doesn't become, it's not just, You know, coincidental or to the point of having ownership of it. You know, in coaching around these things, one of the con rather the conflicts we look at is the owner versus victim piece and being, well, is, are things happening to me or am I making decisions and. Any decision is fine. And that's the thing. Sometimes it's hard for, you know, certain people who maybe are prioritizing something that they believe is not what the general consensus would say have a hard time saying that or so they may, in a sense, almost hold themselves back from certain career goals they have, because it's hard to say out loud that's their number one [00:15:00] priority because they think they're supposed to say something else.
But it's, you know, looking at all of it holistically. and seeing what are all my options here on opportunities and what one really matters to me. And on the other hand, somebody who says, look, What's really important to me is all this other stuff, and I know that there's certain financial Resources, you know required to make that happen, but I want to do that with you know, as little overlap as possible That's also fine
Paula Caligiuri: Yeah. Yeah. We have to honor every point on that continuum. I think where I sort of see the biggest heartbreak is when it's, there's a mismatch, like people who genuinely love their, the idea of what they're doing, but then find that themselves in sort of a soul sucking role but can't.
Don't realize they have the agency to move their skills and talents and reconfigure them and use them in a different context. That's heartbreaking. Likewise, it's the people who like ended up caught up in a big hairy [00:16:00] career when frankly, they just really do want a greater divide between their work life and their personal life.
And that too, you know, we just have to kind of help people understand themselves. And that's a skill we can be training students so that they bring that with them as they, if they get into those starter careers and those foundational roles. I think it's a skill we should be teaching.
Ross Romano: Yeah, and importantly None of what you're you know, where you write about in the book are you talking about? requires any deprioritization or compromise on financial goals, right? Again, like to perceptions that people may have coming into the conversation and thinking, well, if I, you know, if I want to prioritize other things, it means that I'm having less ambition in my career or less, or I'm not making money a priority.
And it's not necessarily so it's you may decide that is, or is not a [00:17:00] priority. You may decide that it is. People can come to this from there's folks who feel trapped in their career because they're making a lot of money and so they're afraid to step out of that because, okay, well, what that there's a lot of uncertainty.
And even though I don't really like what I'm doing, I'm not happy here. I can't walk away from this. And there's other people who don't feel like they're succeeding in their career. They way they want to. And feel that it's kind of impossible or hard to create a more successful or financially lucrative dynamic.
It applies to each of those people equally.
Paula Caligiuri: I think, you know, we keep going back to talking about what should we be training our students to set them up for these career journeys that are happy and successful and fulfilling, you know, financial literacy. Is critical because, you know, of course, what's natural, what happens when you start making money is you start living the lifestyle of somebody with, [00:18:00] you know, resources.
Well, that's great. But kind of the further out you go on that financial limb, the fewer opportunities you might have or freedom, degrees of freedom you might have to change roles or do something dramatically different. So the idea is kind of, Do it with intention and realize that you'll have the greatest amount of flexibility the more sort of financial freedom that you have.
So if you don't put yourself into crazy debt if you don't put yourself kind of living beyond your means and that like, and the like, you know, you do have. the ability to move rather than feeling kind of anxious about staying where you are. That's kind of the worst situation, however you want to manage your career, sort of the worst situation to be in because you have no, no flexibility.
So I think that's a critical one as well.
Ross Romano: How do you have a particular way in which you advise people to define what career means, for [00:19:00] example, a day job versus side hustles versus things that are hobbies and may, you know, may or may not be income generating, but that could, you know, could be there. It's kind of all part of the ecosystem.
Should people look at all of that kind of as career and try to capture it all together? Do we just look at one piece of that?
Paula Caligiuri: Yeah. So we definitely advocate something called, I mean, most people think of it as a portfolio career. We call them career acts, the idea that you have multiple income generating activities and, you know, so it could be, Like a side hustle, a gig, whatever. It could be a profitable hobby. It could be that, that you're just basically gaining another skill.
So the idea, for instance, could be that you work at, you know, you work a nine to five job and maybe a second career act is. returning to school to build up a [00:20:00] skill that you would need in order to take your career to a different level or take it to a next step. Another version of this could be where you, and let's keep going back to you, work a nine to five kind of traditional role.
But then, you know, the 5 to 9 opportunity, the evening or weekends thing is maybe it's a profitable hobby that you're trying to expand or trying to grow. We could look at things that people just do kind of on the side because it's really where they find their sense of flow. And They kind of use a different opportunity.
Maybe again, they're nine to five as they're income generating activity, but what they're trying to aim for is to do more of the thing that really puts them into that state of flow. So kind of building that. Likewise, with entrepreneurial ventures, the same thing. If someone has a great idea for A business and they start working on it while still doing something else.
All of these are examples of those multiple careers, but the idea is or multiple career acts [00:21:00] rather. But the idea is that you manage each act. In the way that it warrants, like you're still great at what you don't, you know, use resources from one to, you know, engage in the other, you do it ethically.
You manage each of those with intention so that you're building the skills that are needed in order to take it where you want it to go. And then ultimately you kind of think about it like you'd think about an investment portfolio. Some might be high risk, some might be sort of steady. But collectively they sort of put you in a good position something that you find.
Ross Romano: yeah, and that's another
way of looking at things, right, whether it's there's a lot more opportunity to do that now, and it's a lot more prominent than it was a decade or two ago with the percentage of people, I think, that are involved in something outside of their 9 to 5 whether it's people who really are You know, committed to an entrepreneurial endeavor or they're working on [00:22:00] some other project that they're interested in that.
Maybe 1 day, they might like to be a business, but I mean, I think it's good to define that perspective because that may be the thing that. We're really passionate about, but I feel like as long as there's that dichotomy between this is my day job. This is something else. It's harder to, you know, to really see what that could be and what's the potential of it.
Paula Caligiuri: They all intersect. They all intersect, especially if you're managing, you know, every facet with intention. It's, I don't, this could be interesting for you. The original book So Live for a Living was technically supposed to be the second edition of Get a Life, Not a Job. But, you know, that was over a decade ago.
The original book was written talking pretty much about this specifically, the idea of managing your career like a portfolio. But we were told that the concept of get a life, telling someone to get life nowadays was seen as a little abrasive. [00:23:00] So it was renamed to Live for a Living, but the idea all along was You know, build up the careers to get to the point of you doing more of what you find the greatest level of fulfillment over that fits with your life and your other life priorities.
What's interesting is that was written at a time. I wrote it. Because it was, you know, right after the Great Recession and people were losing their jobs and these were people who had sort of dedicated themselves to a single company and they were high performing, they were getting great performance reviews, and they were losing their jobs.
The idea back then was, well, a lot of Americans in particular forget that we're in an at will country. You can be fired really for any reason. And people were. And so part of the original intent of the book was to say, Hey, you know, everyone, we've got to remember you're still in control of this.
You're, you have [00:24:00] power to own what you're doing and now bring it into a situation that's more fulfilling. Live for a Living, really, thank, thankfully with Andy joining in as. This partner in this writing adventure, we are, we've been able to kind of expand it out to if people have kind of entrepreneurial ventures and what do you do kind of throughout one's career to continually manage your career and build your career to the point of ultimately getting to an ideal career.
Ross Romano: If somebody is at the stage where they have made the determination that they're a. Are either certain or that whatever they're doing is not the right thing now, or they're not sure, but they're thinking, I don't know if I'm in the right spot or doing the right thing or on the right career path.
But they, you know, they haven't gotten as far as defining what they do want. They just know that I need to think about [00:25:00] this. What are some of the first practical steps you would advise that they should take to start investigating that and coming to some
Paula Caligiuri: Sure. Oh, that, that's, those are kind of the most, interesting conversations to have when people kind of say, you know what, it's not this. I know I'm in for something else, but it's not this and I don't know where to go to. So, so we can begin with questions like, well, when did this start? Like, when did you start to feel some people knew from the moment they began in that role in that job.
Well, what is it? So, so sometimes it's easier to help people identify what they don't like compared to what they. So, oh, it could have been the organization itself. It could be the work. It could be a work like, like, so we kind of keep running through the what was if I could remove something from this role, would that be better?
And so we kind of. to help use that job that they're in now to identify what they don't want. And then we kind of say, okay, well, is there anything any tasks [00:26:00] that you're doing within your current role that you actually do find yourself going into a state of flow with, that you find yourself just losing all sense of time and you get so engaged with what you're doing that you kind of lose yourself in it.
And usually there is, usually they, you know, they selected the job or they went into that. Field, or they found something they enjoy, and even if it's only a task that they do for 15 minutes a day, but it could be something that they really enjoy. And sometimes we have to look deep, but it can be something as crazy as, I really like it when I'm in, like, my team meetings and, you know, giving everybody, like, kind of an update on, like, they really enjoy sort of that training moment.
So anyhow, we dig through those and then we say, okay, so these are sort of forming some patterns. We know these are the things of your current situation. Here are some things you don't like. Here are some things that you do or you get into a state of flow. Let's go back a little bit. Let's go back to, so say this was their first big job out.
Let's go back to your [00:27:00] university days or your early, like if you had any part time jobs or your co ops or internships, let's do the same thing and identify those same two, like what did you like? What were those tasks that brought you into a state of flow? Then you start to see if there's any patterns forming.
And usually Ross, there are.
We're human, you know, we have these natural gifts and talents. We have natural things we gravitate toward. Usually there's something that starts to form a pattern. And then we kind of say, okay, well, let's start to get creative. What could be a logical next step, given the set of skills that you have currently?
That bring you closer to a situation where you're doing more of what's fulfilling or what you find yourself into a state of flow. And then it's like, okay, well, and then let's back it up. Who on the open market, what organization on the open market is looking for someone who has these skills and, you know, can find a state of flow doing these things.
It's really interesting how quickly with, you know, quickly, you know, [00:28:00] with a little bit of self awareness, right, you can get to, you can get to People realizing that they're totally in the wrong career, or that they actually are in the right career, but in the wrong place, or they're in the right field, but they should be doing it for themselves, or they're in the right right functional area, but frankly just need a different industry.
Like, like, it's amazing what will reveal with those activities. (ad here)
Ross Romano: Yeah, I always like to begin those conversations with no assumption of the end answer because sometimes somebody really will feel like, I think I have to leave where I am right now but there's, okay, what are the things that are In our control that we haven't done or haven't tried a lot of times.
There's frustration with, you know, because I haven't been promoted in a certain amount of time. [00:29:00] Well, is there clarity around what it takes to get that promotion? Have you had those conversations? There
Paula Caligiuri: And do you want the promotion? Really? Do you want the,
Ross Romano: What would you prefer that? Or this? Sometimes people think that, right, that they're in the wrong career when it turns out they really just are at the wrong company.
And when we'll have a conversation about, okay, what are the things that you don't like about what you're doing, every answer relates to cultural factors and things specific to that company or the leadership. And it's, well, you know. That doesn't necessarily it. Maybe you are or not in the wrong career, but you're definitely in the wrong organization because you've given a long list of things you don't like about that.
And but it's, you know, but to your point, it is not that. Achieving all of the outcomes associated with those insights is quick and easy, [00:30:00] but getting a much better understanding of it can happen quickly when you look at things holistically you're able to kind of Honestly and authentically articulate what matters to you and what are you thinking and what are you feeling and start to see, okay, oh, you know what, you know, that thing that was just kind of totally blocking me or I couldn't wrap my head around it.
Now I do see clearly that this is definitely how I feel or I really, if I never had to do that type of project again. Great.
Paula Caligiuri: Right. Yeah. There's some exercises. I don't know if you've ever done this with your clients, but the, there's two that I love. One is the reflected best self. Have you ever, I don't know if you've ever done that one, but that's the one where you say, okay, Ask 15 people who know you well, and it needs to be random, like random in the sense that it could be your grandmother, it could be your partner, it could be [00:31:00] your best friend from college, your high school coach, your, like, just people who know you well, who care about you.
And you all, ask them all the exact same question. Describe the situation when you saw me at my best. and what was I displaying at the time? So it's not an evaluation, it's not a review, it's not strengths and weaknesses, it's just describe a time when you saw me at my best and what was I exhibiting, what was I exhibiting.
Whenever I have people do that exercise, I mean, I've watched executives almost in tears as they're reading them because they start to see things about themselves. That everybody sees, but they never saw it in them, in themselves. If you think about it, it's the time when you're at your best. If you can get to that true north, like where those core features are things you can display regularly, you know, at the role that you're in.
That's such a beautiful exercise. I love that one. And the other one I like that you might use is the one that, the [00:32:00] source of pride. Like, Describe seven things in your life that you can honestly say, bring you like, just thinking about them sort of gives you that like, emotional reaction of that sense of pride, and then we okay, well, let's talk about each of those.
And then you look for patterns with those as well. And it can go back to, you know, oh, I had my I had a poem published when I was, you know, in eighth grade, something like that up to, you know, I gave this big report to the board and it could be lots of things but like, then you kind of dissect, okay, what was it about it?
Oh, it was because of my creativity or because of my ability to articulate something challenging or it was Whatever, whatever. I comforted others or something. Those two exercises when people are totally like frozen, like they really just can't kind of get out of their own heads in terms of, well, this is what I do and I don't like it.
Those are two exercises that are useful.[00:33:00]
Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And you never know which of those insights is really going to resonate. And it could come from a surprising source. But hearing, well, this is what I perceived in you, or this is what I noticed sometimes can, I mean, it can definitely lead you to look at things that you hadn't thought about or looked at before.
Or maybe that would interest me, or if that's the way that somebody else perceives what I can do or when I'm really thriving then I don't know, maybe I should, and maybe not but it is, they're definitely good exercises and, you know, and along those same lines, right, opening up the spectrum of opportunities is like something that that comes up and in one of the.
The quotes in the book from Arthur C. Brooks, who's a professor at the Arthur K. Harvard Kennedy School and the Harvard Business School. He said not, there's not a direct quote, but in [00:34:00] essence, you know, careers today are more unpredictable than ever before. And the book shows how we can make that a source of excitement, not a source of dread.
And this is something that stood out to me because the, that sentiment has. A lot. In particular, in, in the process of reorienting perspectives for people who maybe were laid off, right? Or who, for whatever reason, what they were doing, didn't go the way they wanted to be. And, you know, as you said, when you wrote your first book, right, that was during a recession when there was mass layoffs going on.
Past couple of years, there's been a lot of layoffs in the tech industry. So there, you know, this goes around and, but those. And they're painful at the time and, you know, so there's no sense in saying that it doesn't, it's not, it doesn't stink to go through that, but then eventually it's time to plan for the [00:35:00] next step.
It's a good opportunity to say, okay, what do I want to do next? You know, I was on my default trajectory. I was headed toward my default future, right? And it was predictable and there's good things. about predictability, but also I maybe could have written what the rest of my career would have looked like and there never would have been anything new or any surprises or new experiences and am I okay with that?
If I can get, if I'm standing now next to the train tracks and I could get back and I had the chance to get back on the train that I was on, would I? Or would I look for a different one? Right. And, you know, so those. Points at which, as frustrating and difficult and consequential as it can be, where the unpredictability comes to the door [00:36:00] and shakes things up for us, it also means that now, all these Alternate futures are available, all these things that we might do that we never would have done, that maybe was something we were super interested in way back, we got started working in this field and then we continued and never re explored it or, you know, anything, but can you speak to that a little bit around, around people I think for whom this, might cause more dread. You know, this idea and why it's, there's, you know, we can realistically kind of reshape our perspective on that.
Paula Caligiuri: yeah, you know, you know, this is really interesting because it gets to the core. I'm a psychologist and it gets to the core of what I do as a psychologist. So my career actually began helping people live and work in different countries. So with this, like, ultimate kind of, Gulp of ambiguity that they [00:37:00] have to move into and thrive and actually get into situations that are new and different and unknown and help them thrive.
And this, the reason I became interested in this careers piece for exactly the reason you just described is it's the same thing. You're asking people to essentially go from stability to ambiguity. And whenever our brains go from a situation of comfort to a situation of novelty or ambiguity. We don't like it.
Our brains don't like it. We very quickly kind of seek comfort. So, you know, you use the example of the train. You're going to jump on the train just because the train is the one you know, right? Versus five other trains that could be way better and get you to far better places. So it's the idea of sort of helping people get comfortable in that state of ambiguity and everybody kind of gets there a little bit differently.
Some people are totally kind of cool with, you know, lingering longer in uncertainty and they're going to be okay because they're going to give themselves the time [00:38:00] to kind of think through what could potentially be. I worry a bit more about those who are just. Who are just jumping on the next opportunity because that's where their security is.
And I wish I could say I have some, like, amazing, you know, oh yeah. Do these three things and you you'll sort of pause . I don't, except to say that if you are, you're less likely to make the wrong move. If you're in a kind of a. Less risky financial position, so if you have a little bit of a cushion where you're not kind of jumping on something because it's available, you're going to give yourself obviously more time to think it through.
Self knowledge is also a really big, because your brain, once it kind of locks in on wanting to go into a different direction, we as humans will start to solve our own problems. So the more kind of opportunity we give ourselves to think through that experience. I think through what could potentially be, the better kind of prepared [00:39:00] we will be to not jump on that first train but actually kind of sit with that ambiguity a little longer and realize that it's normal and natural.
This isn't comfortable. Humans were not designed To be in novelty, we're designed to be in situations that are predictable and comfortable. So realize that anxiety is a hundred percent normal. Just don't react to it in a way that moves you to comfort in a way that's not the most fulfilling for you.
So, so I think normalizing it giving yourself sort of that cushion financially, so you don't have to jump and realizing that, you know, Hey, this is going to happen, but you with a little self knowledge, man, you're going to redirect your brain to think about what you could do differently,
Ross Romano: Yeah. And then, right. Controlling for finances is important and certainly everybody. Everybody needs to make choices and decisions that are best for them, and you have to make a choice you can [00:40:00] live with. And it is about live, live for a living. So, I mean, you have to, you can't take a chance or do something that you can't, that you know you're going to regret.
Paula Caligiuri: But when you tell, yeah, but you tolerate, so, so we as humans, you know, again we think about this tolerance of ambiguity, if you give yourself the chance to think about what could be, so something totally different, or even slightly different from what you were doing before you were laid off, or before, you know, you opted to leave that organization, if you give yourself the freedom to go there, like to really mentally Transcribed Put yourself into a different future, and then start to think about the steps it would take in order to get there.
Again, once our brain starts locking in on almost like the next step, it, we, it relaxes the rest of us in order to make the move. I just, I can't emphasize enough that I think too many people become very reactive in [00:41:00] times when, of course, they're anxious, but that's natural. And if they can slow it down, lock in on maybe what could be a different future, and then think about those steps along the way, focusing really on that very first step that will move them closer to that more better situation that can really help.
Ross Romano: Yeah, and that's, I think, speaks to why it's so valuable to hear from those who have done it because sometimes it really is the case that these, the time when we are exploring these things is forced upon us, right, not through our choice, and then a lot of times people in those situations find that it's not worth it.
White as frightening as they thought it would be, or it's, you know, amazing again, kind of, you know, controlling for urgent financial need, but the number of people who were part of a round of layoffs and they're [00:42:00] struggling to figure out what their next opportunity is, but you ask them the question directly.
If you got offered back your old job tomorrow, would you take it? And the answer is no. Right. Okay. Well, good. That means we can basically need to Put that away. And that's something to not dwell on. If the answer is yes, then that, then there's one answer. It's let's look for jobs that are like that job. If the answer is no, okay, then there's, then we just have to see this as nothing but opportunity and figure out what you do want to do.
So, but a lot of people who are not if their hand isn't forced, but they're in maybe a position, a career, something that is contrasting or conflicting with their life goals, right, where they feel like they're compromising on other things they want to do because of work, or for whatever reason, unfulfilled, but that have that fear and anxiety. I'm stepping out of the status quo because of what [00:43:00] it might bring to know that a lot of people have been there, have found it to not be as bad as they thought it would be, and then have. succeeded in getting to that. There's multiple ways to get to where you want to be, whether that's financially or otherwise.
Again, not easy, right, but doable when we have a plan and we, you know, answer the right question.
Paula Caligiuri: Or at least the first step. So have an ideal goal, that first step that, that one needs to take. Once that's solid, it kind of, it almost like frees up mental bandwidth for us to like calm ourselves down a bit and go for it. Move into a different direction. It's a really important aspect of psychology.
To kind of trick your brain that's forever trying to seek comfort and looks for familiar and looks to like do what it's always been doing. It's our brains are a bit lazy and that's what we do, especially under stress. You know, I was joking. I said, there's a reason why, you know, there's [00:44:00] something called comfort food in every culture around the world that when we're bodies are under stress, we move to comfort.
We wrote, we move to what seems and feels familiar. And so that's kind of exactly what we're trying to push against. And, but at the same time, giving ourselves that calming effect of just saying, yep, we cannot, we can sort of identify something else and identify the first step that seems doable.
Ross Romano: yeah. Paula, it's been so great to have you here. I'm wondering, do you have sort of a final take away, let's say for the listener who has maybe felt as though that they have, right, they've been compromising on what they want in their life because of whatever their career has been, and they haven't.
They really want to get into this idea for a living. They really want to reorient their relationship to their career and how they contextualize that within their broader life. But, you know, they're a [00:45:00] little frozen. What's the, do you have kind of a takeaway to say? I would say, kind of, start here either, think about this, ask yourself this, do this, whatever you would say to that person who's a little frozen in that, in space.
Paula Caligiuri: Yeah. I would say, you know, first it's natural, it's normal. We all feel that to some extent it's completely natural to feel frozen. That's where we have to first kind of recognize that. The second thing I would say is it's worth it if you want to have some kind of income generating activity that also gives you a sense of fulfillment and purpose and, you know, happiness and engagement.
You know, it's worth it to take the time to kind of do that. that self awareness work to identify where that journey should take you. And then I think there's a resource I'm happy to offer. It's free. Like you don't need even to buy the book to get the resource for this that goes along with the book, but your [00:46:00] listeners might enjoy.
It's a site called myjourney. com and journey is spelled with two I's. So it's M Y J O U R N I dot com. Anyone can go on it. It's. It's free, you don't have to log in or anything, but you can go on and do a readiness check sort of that. If you're in the frozen state, kind of just see how frozen you are and it'll give you a bit of a dashboard around kind of whether there's some things you need to work on before you begin the journey.
And that should, I think be helpful to your listener who's in that mode.
Ross Romano: Awesome. Well, listeners, so the book Live for a Living, you can find it on Amazon. You can learn more about all his work at Skillify. com. We'll put those links below, so you can just click on them, go straight there. No travails. Anything else that yeah, you mentioned the My Journey site. We could link to that too.
Anything else that listeners should check out, learn more about?
Paula Caligiuri: No, other than to say, you know, I wish everybody a really tremendous success and enjoy with their careers. Life is way too short, my friend. [00:47:00] You do not love what you're doing along the way. So, so enjoy.
Ross Romano: Excellent. So, yeah, everybody, I hope this was valuable to you. I hope that at the very least, you know, spend some time thinking about what happiness is to you and what would make you happy. And. try something new, whatever it may be. You don't have to do everything different but try something that'll make you just a little bit happier today or tomorrow, and that's a great place to start in work, in life, at home, whatever it may be.
So, thanks everybody for joining us for this episode. If you're not subscribed already, please do subscribe to The Authority for more author interviews like this one, or visit bpodcast. network to learn about more of our shows. Thanks, everybody, and thank you, Paula.
Paula Caligiuri: Thanks Ross.