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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
I am here with Cam Hart.
CAM is a children's ministry
advisor with YouthWorks and Cam.
You're here to talk about TMT.
What is TMT Training Ministry Teams
or TMT is an online platform for
children's youth ministers to access
training, content to use as you train
your leaders in your leadership teams.
TMT includes a range of modules from
ministry foundations, leading small
groups, running games, disability
inclusion, written particularly for you.
To use with your teams.
Uh, each module includes trainer
notes, leader handouts, PowerPoint
presentations, and we're about to
start recording some video content
to go along with each module.
There's been some developments in TMT?
Yes.
What's new in TMT?
Just in the last couple of
weeks, we have uploaded.
Three modules for Bible foundations to
help leaders understand the big story of
the Bible and how to teach that, uh, to
the children and youth in their ministry.
We've uploaded three brand new
youth ministry specific modules, and
there's a few more of those coming
out in the next few weeks as well.
And if you're a youth or a children's
leader, why would you care about this?
The idea behind TMT is that we want to
give children's and youth ministers access
to high quality training content that
they can use with their leadership team.
So that every time you wanna
run training, you don't need to
write the content from scratch.
And so you can have access to a
growing library of training content.
And if someone wanted to use TMT,
how would they find out more?
The easiest way?
Head to training ministry teams.com.
There you can see the available modules.
You can download a sample, uh,
and you can sign up to get access
to all of our training content.
Welcome back to the Effective Ministry
Podcast, the podcast that helps you
have an effective youth and children's
ministry in your local church.
Um, I'm Al James and, um, it's
a pleasure today to be able to
present to you our q and a episode.
In fact, the first of two q and a episodes
that we are going to be having in a row.
Uh, there were so many questions.
Had about 25 in total.
Uh, that we decided we needed
to split into two episodes.
So this episode and our next episodes
will both be focusing on answering
the questions that you've put to us.
Uh, it's been a pleasure to have, uh,
a part of the Youth Works Ministry
support team to answer those questions,
you're gonna hear from Chris Jones,
from Josh Ord, who are both youth
ministry advisors and also from
Di Lucas and Megan Gates, who are
both children's ministry advisors.
And all of those people also
operate in the special religious
education or SRE world as well.
Some of the questions that we tackle
are to do with parent partnership
to do with the optimal size of
youth ministry for discipleship.
And we even sort of touch on
the question of, is youth group?
Or Is Kids Church?
Church.
It was so good to be able to just
shoot the breeze together and
we're so glad to be able to share
this with all of you as well.
Al 1st PArt: Welcome everyone to
the Effective Ministry podcast.
Today's a really special episode.
We get a chance to kind of assemble
the Youth Works Ministry support
team, or at least part of the
Youth Works Ministry support team.
And we get to answer a whole bunch of
questions that you guys have put to us.
We have got so many questions.
I think as I look down the list here,
it's something like, uh, it's like 25.
We won't possibly be
able to answer all these.
We're gonna do our best to
answer as many as we can.
And, uh, we're just gonna see how it goes.
Run through the list and
see, and see what happens.
Um, some of them will give a little
bit of a, you know, a longer treatment.
Others, others, it'll just be, you
know, just a quick one word or, or
you know, a few sentence sentences.
We'll see how we go.
But I'm really privileged to have
the ministry support team with me.
Hey guys, how are ya?
May: Hey,
Josh: Hello?
Di: Hi.
We're
Chris: Al.
Great to be here.
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Al 1st PArt: me just run
through the list of names.
Uh, you know, on my screen
I've got, um, CJ Chris Jones,
he's a youth ministry advisor.
Uh, in the northern region of Sydney.
We've got Josh Order.
He's a youth ministry advisor
in the southwestern region.
Di Lucas hey Di, she's, uh,
children's Ministry advisor for
the Southwest and Megan Gates.
She's new.
Um, or all, actually Josh and Di and
Megan are all new in their role, but
Megan is a, uh, children's ministry
advisor in the Wollongong region.
It's so good to have you guys
how you are feeling about,
um, answering these questions.
Josh: Great.
Di: Oh, I'm feeling good actually.
I'm excited.
There's some excellent questions.
Um, it's really encouraging actually,
to see some of these questions and
what people are thinking about.
Al 1st PArt: Yeah, and these questions
are come from, um, Facebook and on
email, ver variety of different places.
We're not gonna shout out
names specifically, um,
but, uh, it's gonna be good.
So why don't we, are you guys ready?
We'll just dive in.
Di: Jump in.
Chris: Let's go for
Al 1st PArt: Okay, so the first question
we've got here is how do you onboard
parents, families, kids to come and
then bring friends to Friday groups?
Um, who wants to answer that one?
May: Yeah, I'd love to al.
Um, so we've just done this
recently at my church and it's
been really fun to think about.
Um, I think there's a few
key aspects to think through.
Like the first is to celebrate,
um, and sell the vision of
the actual ministry itself.
So why, why is it that, um, people
would even think about coming
along to your Friday groups?
What does that, what do your
Friday groups look like?
Um, yeah.
And how, how have people, how
have they impacted people?
Well, in the past, so particularly
if your church has a history of
running them, um, celebrate those
stories of people hearing the gospel.
Um, and then the other thing is
setting it up well to be consistent.
Um, and so you actually have a consistent
ministry running, um, where it's backed
by a strong team that are passionate about
what they're doing, um, and praying for
the ministry, um, and for people to come.
And then the third is to, um, really
pack the content of the ministry,
like just touching on that aspect
of, you know, wanting church families
to come and then bring friends.
Um, one of the things we did was to, uh,
actually have sessions on how to share the
gospel with your friends as part of, um,
our Friday group at the start of the year.
And then by term two, the kids were
naturally sharing the gospel in
the playground with their friends.
And inviting them along
Al 1st PArt: So you, you
kind of, you're model, you're
modeling it, Megan, like you're
showing them kind of how to do it.
May: Yeah.
Di: Yeah, me and we, um, at our church
we have a, um, kind of a season, a
mission season we call Share Life.
And so, um, our kids programs
are focused on that as well.
And so that's similar, what
you were just saying, similar.
And we see kids, um, and young
people inviting their friends.
You know, we say let's invite
them to these things particularly,
and it becomes part of a habit.
It's really great.
Um, but I think, I think what you're
saying is excellent sharing good
news stories, that kind of thing.
Um, we have an excellent example, I think
at our church of one mom who lives near
one of the local primary schools, which
is walking distance, um, from church.
Um, and.
She basically picks up a bunch of kids
who may not be able to come otherwise,
um, takes them, you know, walks them
home and they, um, have some opportunity
tea and then she walks them up in a
walking bus, basically up to church.
Um, and I've seen non-Christian
parents, um, non-church parents,
um, yeah, coming and joining in and
taking responsibility for the walking
bus as well and things like that.
It's been really great seeing lots of
people start in kind of kids program
and even move up into our youth program
from that as well, so it's really cool.
Yeah.
Josh: Hmm.
Al 1st PArt: That's good.
Any thoughts from the
youth perspective, guys?
Chris: Oh, look, I think in, in many
ways it, it's really similar to what,
what may, and I have just articulated.
I think, uh, really key is, uh, getting
the, the Christian parents to be
intentional in helping their kids to.
Uh, see it as a missional opportunity.
Um, what opportunities do they have to
invite Friday afternoon, for example,
after school, before going to kids' club
or youth group, uh, or even even parents.
Um, a number of churches I, I can think
of where, uh, parents of teenagers
have been equipped and, you know, maybe
once or twice or term amongst parents,
they organize to go out for dinner,
for example, while youth group is on.
And that just helps make
those connections, um, with
those unbelieving families.
Just helps them be missional,
uh, intentionally within
that youth ministry space.
Al 1st PArt: Yeah, it's, I
mean, it's good to think.
About like parents, I
guess specifically as well.
I mean, one of the questions that we've
got here as well, there's a bunch of
questions about parents, including the
one we've just answered, but you know, if
you hear, um, how have we seen fruitful
examples of partnering with parents?
Love to hear your thoughts on that.
How do we utilize parents better in
leading, supporting kids ministry
and for that matter, youth ministry,
while not also taking them out of.
Um, out of church services too often.
Uh, and then how can we walk alongside
families that aren't connected to the
church, but their kids come to kids club?
So that's sort of the,
the non-Christian parents.
Do anyone wanna offer
anything on any of those ones?
May: Yeah, I think one that you just
said about, um, walking alongside
families aren't connected to the
church, but the kids come to kids club.
Thinking through the parent
factor is really key.
Um, in that I.
That there is just a natural connection,
um, like a friendship relationship
that happens between parents.
And so having those Christian
families on board, super important
to make those connections.
Um, and really, yeah, having the
relational aspect connected in,
they'll help you to know what's
going on in those families lives.
Even down to simple things
like have they just had a baby?
You know, or are they moving?
Can you help them move?
Can you help supply
meals in times of need?
Um, simple ways to sort of
show that connection with your
leaders to the ministry itself.
But the parents of, I mean, with the
kids particularly, it's always gonna
be the parents that have that greatest
impact on the kids getting there.
Um, and so having the parents
connect is key for that.
Di: Hmm.
I, I wonder too if, uh, in terms
of partnering, this kind of
partnering and, and also connecting
with non-church parents, um, is.
What church can offer them in a way.
So we don't do it all the time, but
sometimes as part of our share life
season, we may do some kind of, in the
early part of the season, some kind of,
um, parenting based topic of a night,
you know, um, digi the digital age with
our youth, or you know, with, with some
kind of professionals who come along
who, uh, are clued up in that area
who are Christians to talk about it.
And it's the kind of thing that
a lot of parents at church feel
much more comfortable, I think, in
inviting the non-church parents too.
They feel safe kind of doing
that as a starting point.
Um, and I think often I've
seen the non-church parents
go, oh, this is, this is great.
These people aren't completely crazy.
You know, they're offering help.
Al 1st PArt: you know, like God's truth
has something to offer to, to, to think.
Things beyond the, the
purely spiritual as well.
You know,
Di: Yeah, absolutely.
Al 1st PArt: that there's something that,
that church has to offer, um, beyond that
just, oh, we'll pray for you or you'll
become a Christian, or that kind of thing.
Like it's common grace, I guess, isn't it?
Di: Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I've seen lots of
connections made in that way.
Al 1st PArt: Hey, um, uh, Diane,
Meghan in particular, I'd love to
hear your thoughts on that, that sort
of thorny issue of like, how, how
do you get parents involved without
taking them out of church too often?
I feel like I hear that issue a lot.
Um, have you got thoughts on that?
Di: yeah, it's, it's a tricky one
and I think it depends on, the
answer is almost dependent a bit on
your church size and your resources
and on lots of things like that.
I think a simple one, for example, might
be if you have, if you kind of have a,
a size church where you've got a decent.
Or a set up, I guess, structure of a kid's
church with leaders that are committed
to doing that each week that aren't
necessarily parents, say from night
church or youth or that kind of thing.
Then I think an easy way to try and
get parents on board to help is to
have like a holiday, keep running
the kids program during the holidays
and have holiday program those
so that the leaders have a break.
Um, but parents can step up and, you know,
um, take part in, in running the programs.
And it can be something that you,
you know, that as the kids minister
or whoever is in involved in that
staff can provide program for them.
So it's not, um, you know, that's not
feeling overwhelming, but I think yeah,
that kind of thing is a good way to do it.
May: Yeah.
I guess thinking through, um, like
what, what is it that's important
about the parents being in church?
Um, how do you and your, how
does your particular context
weigh that up against the kids?
Um, having kids specific teaching?
Um, yeah.
What, how, how is your belief
informing your practice?
I
guess, um, around that.
And so I think the kind of question
behind the question I see there,
or the, the value, um, and I could
be misreading it, is that it's
important for adults to be in church.
And so we don't wanna take them out.
Um, if we, if we take them out, then in
order for the kids to hear a talk, then
that means the adults are missing out.
Al 1st PArt: That's a, that's a
sacrifice the adults are making.
I feel like I read an article
by our good friend Tim Bihar.
Um, he'll forever be known as our.
Good friend of the podcast tibial hearts.
Um, just think about how do
you conceive of kids' church?
Like is a church, like is kids' church,
church and therefore when an adult
is not in the adult congregation or
the Sunday congregate or whatever,
whatever it is, and steps out, um,
do they think of that as not being in
church or is it that they're kind of,
you know, in church in some other way?
I mean, that's a really good
question to kind of answer.
I don't know if you've
got thoughts on that guys.
Di: good question.
Chris: and, and we, we often hold out
hearing the sermon as the, the pinnacle
of what it means to be at church.
So if you were there and you don't
hear the sermon, were you at church?
I think that's what we often lean towards.
Al 1st PArt: Yes.
I mean, so like, what are the,
I mean, look, we, we could go
down many rabbit holes, but what
Di: I was gonna say, do you
wanna go down the rabbit hole?
Al 1st PArt: like, let's go there.
Like what are some of the other important
aspects of church that we can then apply
to, to either kids or youth as well?
Like it's, it's not just, it, like
obviously the hearing of the word.
Um, is a huge and important aspect
of, of what makes something church.
But what else have we got?
I mean,
Di: But who's not hearing the word either?
Sorry.
I was gonna say, even in the kids
program or the youth program,
you're still hearing the word, like
Al 1st PArt: Even an adult
that goes into the kids, a kids
program is hearing the word.
Di: Yeah.
I mean, how many times have you heard
a parent or someone say, that was
a great family spot or kid spot, or
whatever it is that made more sense
to me than the sermon I've heard.
I've heard that I've sometimes, you know,
um, they've stolen the minister's thunder.
I may have sometimes said that.
Um,
Josh: Hmm.
Al 1st PArt: no shame,
Di: you know, I, you know, I think
it's good to remember that God's
word still being read and taught,
and we can still learn from that.
And I think, you know, mutual
encouragement and learning from each
other, like, we can learn from those
who are older than us, who are younger
than us, who, you know, in the same
stage, different stages of life.
So I think, um,
Al 1st PArt: The flip side of that die
is that we can, that different people
can both not just learn from, but the
flip side of that is that they can,
Contribute, you
Di: Hmm.
May: Mm.
Al 1st PArt: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I mean,
Di: Yeah.
And so that same goes into
the main, the main, you know,
church service, so to speak.
Um,
Al 1st PArt: Just for those listening,
die put, um, air quotes around Maine.
Josh: Hmm.
Di: I've gotta remember, I'm not actually
Yeah.
You're being seen.
Al 1st PArt: Cj, you
were gonna say something.
Chris: uh Oh yeah.
I was just gonna say, I
think sometimes we can
unintentionally, uh, create a
consumerist approach to church
when we, we actually say.
Sitting and passively
listening to the sermon is more
important than serving others.
Um, and so I think we need to,
we need to weigh those things up.
Uh, I don't wanna diminish the importance
of hearing God's word as we've just
said, but actually, uh, serving
in the kids' ministry or the youth
ministry space or other spaces that
are happening, as God's people gather,
uh, that that is good and valuable.
And so potentially more so than
being, uh, just a passive participant.
Al 1st PArt: Yeah, yeah,
Yeah.
May: I mean, how
Al 1st PArt: there's
something very essential.
There's something very kind of.
You know, quintessentially Christian to
serve and to be part of the gathering.
And be serving in the gathering as well.
May, I think I cut you off.
What were you gonna say?
May: No, all good.
I was just gonna say how often
have, um, you prepared a talk for
youth ministry or kids' ministry and
what you get out of it is so much
deeper than just ingesting a sermon,
um, because you're really getting in
the depths of the passage as well, so.
Di: Mm.
Al 1st PArt: Um, I, I wanna move us on.
I mean,
Di: Can I just,
Al 1st PArt: Oh, go die.
Yeah, yeah,
Di: gonna, I'm going to interrupt.
I just noticed that that question was
about in utilizing parents, but also
how they support the kids' ministry.
And I just think that is
a really important point.
It's not just about how to use them to
run the programs, but how can they support
the leaders and support the ministry.
So I think there are heaps of ways
that parents can do that and still
be in church, for example, on Sunday.
So it might be that.
Um,
Al 1st PArt: In the main church in,
Di: in the main in inverted
color commas in the service.
Um,
Al 1st PArt: yeah.
List some of the ways for us,
Di: yeah, so for example, I mean, in
my mind and things I've seen, um, I had
something like having a group of core
parents who might, um, be in charge of
helping to look after or support leaders
of their Y group, depending on the
size of your, you know, um, ministry.
Um, but at Christchurch where we go,
um, we, you know, we've got a big enough
youth ministry, for example, that we
are trying to have, you know, a couple
or a few different parents who are
like the year seven parents and, um.
They then try and gather the year
seven parents together at different
times in the year, or they find ways
to support and encourage the Year
seven leaders, that kind of thing.
Or we've had, you know, invite your
kids, your kids leader to dinner
this week, you know, kind of stuff.
Get to know the family, you
know, those kinds of things.
We've done bookmarks of leaders and,
you know, here's something about your
leader at the beginning of the year.
Put this on your fridge so that
you're only to pray for them,
you know, that kind of stuff.
Um, helping by parents, knowing
what's going on and how they can
support the leaders, I guess.
Um, and sharing the things that
the leaders are doing to train
and to, you know, care for.
And, you know, they put in a lot of effort
often, you know, to be well equipped.
To look after, not look after.
I can't believe I said that.
To teach and love and serve, uh,
Al 1st PArt: spiritual welfare
in partnership with the parents
is what you meant to say die.
Di: that's exactly what I meant to say.
Um, yeah.
Anyway, I'm now hogging it.
So does anyone else have any suggestions?
Josh: Yeah, I do.
Can I jump in?
Al 1st PArt: go Josh.
Yeah.
Josh: Look, I was just thinking,
we've talked a little bit
about partner with parents and
utilizing parents just now and I.
On the youth group side of things that
doesn't quite clash with church on Sunday.
Um, one, one experience I had for,
for anecdote's sake was we had a
fairly, uh, good sized youth group.
There were probably 50 kids.
We had to move to a combined event.
A bunch of our leaders didn't drive
still, um, you know, red peas.
And so we just didn't have enough
leads to drive all these kids.
I was looking at the prices of hiring
mini buses and stuff, and it was quite
dear, and then who's gonna drive it?
And so I just jumped on
the parents' WhatsApp
chat and said, you know, Hey guys,
we're trying to move all these kids.
Can anyone help us out?
And within like 30 minutes, I had like
five or six key carnivals in a row on
the church car park, just waiting to go.
Seven
Chris: The classic Christian family car
Josh: That's right.
That's right.
Al 1st PArt: or may not own
one of those classic Christian
Josh: Yeah.
But the thing is, none of
our, you know, early 20 youth
group leaders have those cars.
Right.
And like that's a, that's a small
Al 1st PArt: other.
Di: Hmm.
Josh: that's right.
It's a small, practical thing that
the parents can do to really bless
our group to make our, our, the ins
and outs of our programs run smoothly.
And, uh, that just, again, those
healthy partnerships where parents
know what's happening onboard,
there's a whole lot of ways they
can play And, contribute.
And that 10 minutes drive into
the other
church for the combined event means some
of those youth group kids get to know
another parent, that they'll see a church.
It helps
foster all the intergenerational things we
want.
Chris: and and so
Josh: a youth group anecdote.
Chris: Yeah, and, and so often parents
are very ready and willing to partner
in that way.
we we just need to be willing to
make the
ask.
Di: mm Yeah.
Suppers and afternoon tea
rosters and all kinds of things.
Even just, yeah.
Al 1st PArt: I'm gonna, I'm gonna
put a, um, a shout out for the idea
of just relational glue as well.
The idea of actually sometimes,
particularly if you've got young
leaders, um, and you've got parents,
sometimes parents and young people,
um, can be afraid of each other.
So actually to just facilitate.
You know, this is such and such and, you
know, tell the leaders, nod and smile.
Like, you know, smile is really important.
And, you know, let the parents
know that yes, the leaders do.
Uh, you know, they are keen to kind
of, but just sort of, I, I guess
having that relational, uh, oil in the
system, um, is a really, really helpful
thing for support, like, you know.
How do you feel supported as a leader?
Well, that's not gonna happen unless you
actually have some kind of interaction,
positive interaction with a parent.
Um, I do wanna move us on though.
We're gonna, we've, we've touched on
some fairly, you know, sorry, di um,
Di: no, no.
It's good.
Al 1st PArt: we've touched on some,
um, fairly high ministry philosophy.
But, um, a, a question for the
youth guys in particular here.
Um, happy to hear from the kids
guys as well, but is youth group.
For evangelism or discipleship or, and
the, the person asking the question is
kind of, you know, giving the game away a
little bit or is this a false dichotomy?
Josh, love to hear from you.
Josh: Hmm.
Yeah, I think Al you're right in that,
in the question it, it's given away,
um, some of what the, the asker has,
uh, have been thinking about this.
But I think they're right to say
it is a, a false dichotomy to
say it's one way or the other.
I think both are important.
Um, they're different
parts of the spectrum.
Uh, and I actually think if you
don't do both, you are robbing
your group of something as well.
Uh, because each group is naturally
gonna lean one way by the, you
know, the makeup of the people God
has entrusted to our care at this
particular moment in this season.
And if God has laid before us,
lots of evangelistic opportunities
and lots of unchurched people and
friends come in, in connections.
Well, of course we're gonna
have a more evangelistic flavor
and, uh, purpose to our group.
But the hope is that they become
Christians and then need discipleship,
in which case our group's gonna
have to have some discipleship.
And if we don't have discipleship
in those moments, well, we're not
discipling those kids who have just met
Jesus, those youth who have just met
Al 1st PArt: The flip
side being true as well.
If, if you're discipling a group
of young people and um, they're
not engaging in evangelism well,
are you actually discipling them?
You know, well, not to
the full extent at least.
Josh: Yeah, that's exactly right.
That's what I meant when I
was saying like both ways.
You kind of, if you go one way
without considering the other,
you, you robbed something.
'cause you should be discipling kids
to know or love Jesus and want to serve
in ministry and mission and, and be on
board with Jesus mission for the lost.
And so discipled, teenagers should
want to evangelize their friends and
yeah, so in that sense, I think, yeah,
the false dichotomy gives it away.
But is is quite true that, uh, yeah, our
different groups do lean different ways,
but, uh, both are important and critical
and it's probably harder work to do both
well, you know, in your youth group.
Uh, but when you work hard to
do both well, you get the, the
benefits of good robust ministry.
And so it's worth the, the hard work
to do them both well at the same time.
Al 1st PArt: part of, part of what the
question is sort of, um, getting at as
well is that there's, there's dangers at
either end and this, this is what you've
been talking about as well, but like.
You know, every now and then you hear
about a group that talks about, um,
you know, youth group is not for the
church kids, it's for their friends.
Um, and then at the other end of the
spectrum, you kind of, I mean, people
very don't very often say, well, this is
only for church kids, but, um, uh, but
you, you might kind of have a feeling
or a vibe that it's very insular.
And so trying to, trying to
avoid those, those ends of the
spectrum, um, might be worthwhile.
Has any, anyone got anything
to say about those things?
Di: I wonder if, um, in kids'
ministry particularly, it's.
Easier to have a sense that we are
particularly catering for church kids.
Um, because I think, I think it can
be easy to forget that kids, um, have
lots of guts and are happy to talk
to their friends about what they did
at church on Sunday, for example.
And also because kids are being brought
to church by their families often.
Like, so it's a bit more
prescriptive or this is of course
who your audience is going to be.
So I think it's good to
be really alert to that.
May: And I wonder
whether that's kind of where the
youth,
um, thought is coming from is like
kids have their thing for Christian
families while church is on on a Sunday,
and not all churches do a specific
thing for youth during that time.
And then kids have kids club
on a Friday as an invitational,
but youth just have that
Di: Mm-hmm.
May: So are they missing it?
I think that.
Possibly where people think, oh,
they've got this and they've got this
for kids, but maybe not for youth.
Um,
Chris: yeah.
but I, I think I'd want to
come back to what, to what
Josh said that actually, if
we're rightly understanding what
discipleship is of either kids or youth,
then we want to
be helping,
uh, young Christian people grow in
maturity and also be.
Missionally
minded, um, be thinking about evangelism,
you
act, uh, we actually need both of
those aspects if, if we're, um,
getting discipleship right?
And so, yeah, I, I, as Josh said, I,
I don't think we can separate them.
And so e
you know, even for,
uh, yeah, the, the Sunday morning Kids
ministry program that happens while
church is on, if we're discipling
kids in that space, we're growing
them into maturity and we're equipping
them age appropriately for evangelism.
Same, same for youth group on a
Friday night, if we are discipling
young people, we are growing them in
maturity and we are equipping them for
evangelism.
uh, uh, yeah.
And, you know, different, different
groups or even different, um, different
weeks of a particular youth group
from week to week might lean a bit
more towards one or the other, just
based on the nature of the teaching.
But when we look big picture,
uh, yeah, we need, we need
both of those
things for, for robust discipleship.
Al 1st PArt: Um, Mike Dicker, principal
Dicker, as I like to call him.
Um, he, he kind of says, um, I
was in a seminar with him once
and, and he said something like,
we don't need more provocatively.
He said, we don't need more evangelism.
I need more discipleship.
And, um, are you saying exactly
the same thing as what you're,
you're saying there, cj?
Um, uh, okay.
We're gonna move on to the next question
and we're gonna ask the question
how to effectively train leaders who
are all needing different things.
More than just running a training day.
The, the question asker asks specifically.
Um, and there's another
one, uh, a similar question.
How do you recruit, retain, or
train or slash train leaders?
Multifaceted there, but, um, yeah,
thoughts on particularly how to
effectively train leaders who
are all needing different things.
May: I think even just the way we were
talking about discipleship of kids
and youth is that, um, that process
of walking alongside and growth, um,
comes from that walking alongside each
other and learning from each other.
And so, um, yeah, training is way
more than just a training day.
Um, regardless of whether you're
intentional about it or not, um,
your leaders are learning from
you just by watching what you're
doing, hearing what you're saying.
Um, and they're learning
from each other as well.
So the culture in the team is gonna affect
what they're learning from each other
too, um, whether that be intentional or
Al 1st PArt: So like some, some stuff
is caught as well as what is taught is
what you're saying.
May: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Um, then another way I've seen this
done really well is actually, um,
for individual leaders to have goals.
So like for a term, um, different
leaders, whether they're junior
leaders or um, older leaders, just
even personalities will struggle with
different skills or, um, interests.
And so they're naturally growing a
particular, um, aspect, you know,
whether that be the relational side
of ministry, but they don't really
love being upfront or vice versa.
Um, and so recognizing that deficit in
them themselves and their own skills,
and then being able to say, for this
term, I want accountability on this.
This is what I wanna work on.
Um, and then the team leader or whoever's
overseeing that team can touch base with
them during the term and encourage them
that they've, you know, done a really
great job at growing in that, like,
recognizing that we are all different.
We are all individuals in that space.
Al 1st PArt: Yeah.
And there's something quite powerful about
someone articulating an intention, right?
So, you know, within this realm of a
particular aspect of, of, of ministry,
um, here's something I struggle with.
Here's something that I wanna grow in.
Whatever.
There's power in actually
saying that to someone.
And then whoever it is with, like, I,
I've seen it done both in terms of, um.
The, you know, the, the youth or kids
minister, keeping that person accountable.
But I've also seen it done where
they keep one another accountable
and so they sort of, they might
have, you know, um, two leaders might
keep one another accountable on a
particular goal and just sort of check
in with progress and that kind of thing.
Um, I mean, another thing I've seen as
well, like just, um, to put a bit, a bit
of, you know, like the same idea Megan,
which is excellent and put a little
bit of structure to it as, uh, I guess
additional structure to it as well.
Sometimes think of people think
about having, you know, say five
core competencies or how many core
competencies, and then kind of going,
well within this particular core
competency, maybe there's, you know,
three levels of, of competency there.
And again, that idea of kind of
like, well, I'm at level one.
Well what would it take for
me to move to level two?
What are some things that I could
kind of, and so it's the same
idea of that kind of, um, walking
alongside someone, um, having a goal.
But just, you know, maybe you've
predetermined that there are
some, um, particular competencies
to kind of, um, think through.
And that can happen at an,
at an individual level.
Maybe you'll have baseline training at
a training day, but then as you start
to level up and, and, and progress
in different areas, um, there's
sort of more options opening up.
Di: I wonder if you can utilize to, um,
you know, once a month or something,
you know, a 10 minute thing in your
leaders meeting before or after, um,
you know, your program, you've run
your program, you, you're doing kind
of a 10 minute short training thing,
which means you can, you kind of
cover, um, things that you're seeing
as issues.
It might not be for everyone, but you
know, it's, it's short, it's
sharp, it's covering it.
Uh, it's helpful
for everyone, but it's
addressing as you go.
It's addressing
the different needs that
you're seeing as you
go.
Um, yeah, I think in terms
of recruiting and even retaining,
Al 1st PArt: I was gonna
say, we've talked a lot about
training.
Well, do we wanna talk about retaining
and recruiting?
Go for a die.
Di: excellent.
I think things like having a
role description are really
important.
Um, So
I've seen the benefit of
that a lot when people have a
really clear idea of what it
is that's expected of
them, and even what's
expected of the people
who are looking after.
them or who they're, looking after.
Um, they're, and what's required
time-wise, all that kind of thing.
Um,
I think they're much more
likely to be able to say
yes, um, because it's really
clear and they're confident or no.
And that's a good thing too, I think
if they know that
they can't actually, no, I can't do that.
That's better than
someone saying yes and it
just falling
apart.
So, um, I think yes, both is true.
Um,
and I actually think you're
more likely to retain leaders if
you stick to that role description.
And if you, you know, they're feeling
confident, oh, that's gone well.
I did what I expected to do.
I've been cared for, or taught
or trained as I've gone.
Et cetera, et cetera.
And we sometimes, as a, a role,
part of a role description, you
could have a bit like what you were
talking about al, you know, like a
crawl, walk, run kind of scenario.
This is what it looks like
when you're first starting out.
This is what it looks like as you're
starting to grow in your competencies
as you're walking and now you're
running, you know, that kind of thing.
Um,
Chris: Which, which is really just about
setting clear expectations, isn't it?
Help helping
Di: Yeah.
Chris: new leaders understand,
uh, what we're hoping from them.
I think when there's not clarity
there, uh, people will make up their
own version of what good leadership
looks like, and then will be frustrated
or they'll be frustrated because
there's often misalignment there.
So Yeah.
Role descriptions, conversations
on expectations, communication.
So
Di: Yeah.
Al 1st PArt: Someone once, um, said
to me, and you guys have heard me
say this before, and you know, I'm
better and worse at doing it myself,
but, um, the, you know, what does
someone need to flourish in a role?
They need to know what,
what is a good job?
They need to know how to do a
good job, and they need to know
when they've done a good job.
Um, and so there's all sorts of
things that sort of fit to fit in
that, like the role descriptions, um,
you know, do they have the resources
to be able to do those things?
Do they have the time with you
to be able to do those things?
And then the, the kind of.
When they've done it, know
when they've done a good job.
That's the feedback kind of piece as well.
And so it's satisfying when you
know that you've done a good job.
Um, and I think that that sort
of comes, um, to the retaining
question as well, doesn't it?
As well as the recruiting question.
Yeah.
Uh, any other thoughts on that guys?
Di: Because I think, sorry, I think it's
easy to, I was just say, I think it's easy
to forget to say thank you even if you're
really appreciative of people often.
So being purposeful about
that, say, you know, doing the
end of the year, thank you.
Or the end of
the term, or just even buying them all
an ice block at the end of the last,
you know, the last session of the term
or whatever it
is,
I think makes a massive difference.
And, and including, I think.
Upfront in church, for example, in
front of those that don't see what they
do saying, Hey, here are our leaders.
They're doing an awesome job.
You know, it's public, it's really clear.
Um, yeah, I just think people don't always
do it to be praised, but that's important.
Al 1st PArt: to throw out a
bit of a, something to chew on.
Um, I once
heard someone say, um, I, that
he, that he never thanked leaders.
Um,
and, and just to be pre, I can
see, see you guys are all going.
Oh my goodness, why not?
And um,
and part of me is like, Oh,
man, buddy, come on.
Um, but there's a little part of it,
there's a kernel of, of, uh, I think gold
in there is that he, he tries to express
appreciation and thankfulness to God for
them, but he doesn't want communicate
to them that he's, that, that they
are helping him out with his ministry.
Um, so there's, you know, like that's
a language thing really, isn't it?
But
it's an in interesting
kind of, um, way to put it.
Josh: Hmm.
Al 1st PArt: Um, alright, let's move on
and we will, we've got a, a, a really
a, like a, a fairly long question.
I'm just read it out and CJ's
gonna have a crack at answering it.
We'll all, you know, have some input.
Um, this question is, uh, is this, it
says in your experience is a larger.
Friday night youth group size, I'm
thinking a hundred to 200 teens
more positive for the discipleship
of young people compared to
a smaller youth group size?
Or is it more of a hindrance?
What changes in leadership
structures, programs and logistics
need to be considered to move
towards being a larger group?
I'm thinking a hundred plus teens
would duplication
or expansion into other models such as
multiple smaller Friday night youth groups
or something else, be better for mission
outreach and discipleship of teenagers.
So in some sense, it's a question of.
Is there an optimal size youth group
for the discipleship of, um, teenagers?
And cj, you're gonna tell us exactly
the number that you need to have.
Chris: Oh, no, no, no.
Not gonna give you
the exact number cause I
dunno what it is.
Uh, look, this, this is an excellent
question
and, um, uh, yeah, I mean,
I'm working with a number
of churches in
my patch at the moment,
thinking through these issues.
Um, uh, something I'm passionate about.
Uh, I think there's, there's lots of
things to consider as youth
ministries grow kind of from one
scale
to the
next,
right?
So, you know, if you're, if you're leading
a
youth group and you're experiencing
growth, there's actually a whole
bunch of
things that you need to be thinking
about.
Um, and there's some really
key kind of transition points
in scales of youth ministry,
um, that I've found
personally over the
years and working alongside other
churches.
You know, I, I think
kind of, you know, a, a
group of up to about 10 teenagers
in the room on a Friday
night has a certain
dynamic.
uh, 20 is the next
turning point, about 40, about
80, and then somewhere in the
sort of a
hundred to 120 to 140 is kind of
the next turning point.
And, and as you come to each of those
turning points, um, there's
some really key changes that need to be
made
in how
you think about youth ministry.
I think the the key things
you
need to be thinking about
as you're going from kind of
one size scale to the next, um,
there's the role of the youth
minister
within the ministry that
that actually necessarily
changes as you grow.
Um, the structure of the leadership team
needs to change as you get
bigger.
Uh, and the program for what you actually
do at youth group need
needs to change as well.
And I think in my
experience, so from my own experience as a
youth minister and also
working with with other
churches, we often get stuck
at these growth points, right?
So a lot of youth groups get
stuck at
about 40 teenagers
Or about
80 teenagers.
Or about 120 to 140 teenagers?
Um, And it's often because
we haven't identified
the growth barriers that are preventing
us from kind of going into that next
size the changes that need to be made,
um, or, or we haven't actually made
those changes.
Um, sometimes we are the
actual barrier ourself.
You know, we don't know what the next
step needs to look like, or we are still
clinging to want to actively be on the
front line when actually we need to step
back and empower, um, groups under us
to, to lead the ministry really well.
, so sometimes, uh, they're the
reasons that we get stuck, um.
A big question.
I'm being asked a lot at the moment.
I'm working with a number of churches that
are kind of just hit the a hundred mark
a hundred teenagers on a Friday night.
And the question I keep getting
asked is, is there a point at which
it's best to split into two groups?
Which, which is really what this question
is asking, you know, is is it better to
be one large youth group of, you know,
150 plus teenagers or is it better to
split, you know, we have a junior high
youth group and a senior high youth
group.
Uh, there's, yeah, look, there's lots
of factors to consider and I think
the, the more that I, the longer I've
been in the youth ministry game and
the more that I work with a variety of
churches, I, I'm more convinced that
there's actually not a gold standard
of, you know, here is exactly what
the perfect model of youth ministry
looks like because it's so contextual.
Um, so I, I don't, I think there's,
I think you need to do some hard
work to analyze your own context.
Now, there might be genuine barriers.
That mean you have no option
but to split into two groups a
junior high and a senior high.
Right?
You might not have a building that
can physically take 120 teenagers
plus a team of, you know, that's gonna
be a team of 30 plus leaders, right?
You, you just might not be able
to, so you might have no option.
Personally, and, and I wanna
say this is personally, I
think where the barriers don't exist
and where it's possible, there are more
benefits to staying and growing as one
larger youth group than splitting two.
Um, there is definitely pros
and cons both ways, right?
So it's not as though that's
always better, that there are
absolutely pros and cons both ways.
But I think the pros of being one group
outweigh
the.
Cons of, of staying as one group now,
uh, like genuinely I could record a
10 series podcast on this, so, uh, I'm
not gonna, not gonna go on and on and
AL 2nd Part: it in the diary.
CJ.
Chris: Um, uh, but I think one of
the things we, uh, look in summary,
one of the things we wanna be really
careful and can happen when we,
when we start splitting groups
into smaller and smaller sizes,
like, so let's say we split junior
and senior high, right?
That grows again, maybe then we
need to split into three or four.
You know, do we get to a point where
you've got a youth group for every grade?
What we And gender?
Yeah.
Right.
Like you, we actually end up
with highly siloed ministries.
Uh, and I think, um, actually
we wanna try and work the other
direction, rather, rather than
smaller and smaller demographics with
bigger numbers.
We actually want to help young
people be more integrated into a
broader age range, broader body of
Christ.
Um, and, and it can be done, right?
You can run a youth group
of 150 teenagers as one
group, uh, very well.
It can be done.
There's just certain things you
need to think about and maybe
adjust.
AL 2nd Part: Let me.
press you a little bit, a
little bit further on that, cj,
because 'cause siloed is the
negative way of saying tailored, right?
So, so talk to me about like what's
wrong with siloed, like what's wrong
with kind of separating out the groups?
Um, you know.
Chris: And, and again, I think
there are pros and cons, right?
So, so the
pros of, of kind of going down to
that smaller size, like, you know,
maybe you've got, you know, you've got
a year seven and eight youth group.
'cause you've got, I dunno, maybe you've
got 80 teenagers in year seven and eight.
Um, you know, the pros there are, you can
really tailor your teaching to, to that
age, to, to what they're thinking about.
Those leaders can really, um,
hone in on, on where, you know,
that kind of demographic is at.
I think the pros though of, of staying
as one larger youth group, um, is
you actually help young people, uh,
see and understand what it means
to be a, a Christian teenager,
a across a broader age range.
And I think that's really beneficial for
those coming in at the younger end, right?
Whether your youth ministry starts
at year six or year seven, uh, for
them as they become part of the youth
ministry space to see what senior high.
Teenagers are doing and living and the
culture they're setting, you actually
lose something massive if, you know,
they're only seeing a grade or two above
them from, from that kind of silo down.
Now, now that being said, when you're
in a church where you've got this kind
of large scale youth ministry, right?
A hundred plus teenagers, uh, almost
always, you, you've, you've got
at some other point in the week,
youth bible study groups, right?
And, and I would say that can be
the great space where you actually
get the really focused for their,
you know, maybe for their grade or,
you know, that's the year nine boys.
Um, so I think, uh, I'm not, I'm not
advocating for never having a space
where you have that really focused.
Uh,
I think ideally you actually,
you actually want both at some
space throughout the week.
AL 2nd Part: Um, I'm a, let's
just say, I'm a 17-year-old
boy and I'm, I'm not actually, but.
um, I once was, um,
Chris: Yeah.
AL 2nd Part: Yeah.
yeah.
Di: not hard to imagine
is what I was gonna
say, but.
Josh: Yeah.
AL 2nd Part: Yeah.
Well, I think you knew
me then Dave, so, or,
or pretty close too.
Um, but, you know, uh, mate, like when I
turn up to youth group, there's all these
year sixes and, sevens running around.
Like, what are you gonna say to me, cj,
if you're gonna advocate for staying
together as long as possible, um,
what do you, what do you say to me?
I'm a, let's just say I'm a, I'm,
I'm a, I'm a, a mature, mature
ish, you know, 17-year-old.
Um, you know, my pre-frontal
cortex is still forming, but,
um, what are you gonna say
to
Chris: Yeah, and, and this is where,
as I mentioned earlier, when we get
to that size, one of the things that
I said we need to think about is
the program for your youth group.
Right?
So the program of what a night
of youth group looks like
when you're a youth group
of 120 plus teenagers.
Should necessarily be reasonably
different to what the program
looked like when you were half that
size, when you were 60 teenagers.
Uh, and I think one of the, one of the key
things, um, as you get big, certainly as
you get into that a hundred plus mark, is
you want to create space within a youth
ministry program, uh, where you
do things all together, right?
So there's some element of your
night where it's everyone together.
Um, you want some element of the night
where it's kind of much smaller.
So maybe, you know, that's your grade
discussion group or your year
nine boys discussion group.
You know, you might have 12
different discussion groups.
But I think what's really
key when you're in that a
hundred plus youth group
size is actually creating the
middle space as well.
Um, I think a lot of our youth
groups do large and small, right?
So, you know, maybe we're
all together for a game.
And the torque.
And then we go to discussion groups.
So that's large.
Then small.
Uh, what we need to do, I'm convinced as
particularly as you get to a hundred
plus, is you need large, you need small,
' but you also need the medium size as well.
Um, and, and I'm working with a
number of churches on this at the
moment, and what we've kind of
realized is that, uh, the medium size,
you know, that might be two grades, right?
So maybe there's a time within
your youth group program where year
seven and eight are doing something
together and at the same
time, year nine and 10 are
doing something together at the
same time.
Year 11 and 12 are doing
something together.
And that helps.
Your example
al of, you know, the
17-year-old
boy who come, comes along and is like, I
don't wanna run round and play dodgeball
with, you know, the year seven boys.
Um, I don't know, maybe
they do, uh, right.
But you can actually cater, uh.
A space within the youth ministry for
those kind of different demographics.
And, and what we've come to realize as,
as an, I've been, you know, trialing
a bunch of these things with some
churches is that, that medium size
works best as the first
thing in your program.
Because it means when a new
person arrives, the first thing
they're hit with is not
150 people in the room.
Um, because for a lot
of people, not everyone, but for a
lot of people, that's overwhelming.
And that's gonna be an instant,
uh, turnoff for, for them to want
to come back, right?
So starting with the medium size is
actually, uh, really helpful.
Then maybe you go to all
in for, you know, for talk, for some
singing, for, you know, whatever,
whatever a weekly item is and
then maybe you're
finish with the small.
Um, but I think the key
' when you get a hundred
plus if you want to be one group a hundred
plus, is creating those different
experiences at small, medium, and large.
I'll leave it at that.
I could talk a lot more, but yeah.
Di: As the 17-year-old
boy as well, though.
Uh, sorry, I totally love
everything you're saying,
cg.
Um, I I have seen it be a wonderful
opportunity to encourage what we
see of the discipleship that's been
happening coming to fruition.
So, um, you know, it's
actually an opportunity for a
year
12, you know, year 11, year 12
leader to say to their guys,
Hey, this is the time of
the night where.
We are going to remind, you know, we're
gonna be good examples or we are going
to, we are going to do
what we do with you guys.
Go
and check in on, you
know, such and such in
year eight or whatev,
you know, whatever it
is.
Chris: That's right.
And, and that's, that is one of the
benefits of
being one larger youth group.
um, you know, one
of the things I've seen over the years,
well, in a number of churches, is when
you stay as one large youth group,
you know, if you're a group that size,
you've probably got a junior leader
program up and running.
As younger kids come in
at year six or year seven.
They actually know a whole lot of the
senior high youth because
they've been their junior leaders
over the last couple of years,
and there's something beautiful
in that It helps them plug into
the youth
group community
Di: absolutely.
AL 2nd Part: And it's, and it's precious
for those, those young guys coming,
um, coming, in to be known, right?
Like, there's that question
of belonging for them
coming in.
And I, I think, I mean, the, off the back
of what you were saying there, diet, like,
I, I think I'd also wanna say to me as
the 17-year-old boy, um, youth group is
about you, but it's not just about you.
You know, there's a, there's
an element of, you know.
Like, we're here to contribute.
We're not just pa passive
recipients of, um, of the ministry
of the leaders, but we're also
contributing to this group as well.
And one of the ways I can contribute
is by, you know, some of the
things that you've both outlined.
Um, you know, having an eye to those,
those younger crew, um, to, to love and
to care for them, um, and to welcome
them into the family of, of believers
that are here and, you know, and
also, you know, those, those that are
on the fringes being welcomed in and
having a sense of belonging as well.
Um, uh, really, uh, like, you know,
a bit of a tour to force there.
Cj, you've obviously thought about
this a lot, and I, I, I have, I have
learned from you a lot in that space.
I really appreciate that.
And that brings us to the end
of our first q and a episode.
We had so many questions that we
decided we'd actually do two episodes.
So this episode you're listening to
now, we've just come to the end of
and, uh, the next episode as well.
Uh, but I did wanna just leave you
with a taster of the very first issue
that we'll tackle, in our next episode.
And that is the issue of phones.
We'll be tackling that first up and then
a whole bunch of other issues as well.
So looking forward to that.
AL 2nd Part: We're gonna move on now
to the topic of phones, which is,
um, a perennial kind of, um, issue.
And we've got, we've got
some categories here.
Like we've got, we've got, um, we
actually have some questions that, um,
our answers to them have the potential to
kind of unravel and undermine each other.
So we'll just, I, I was thinking,
which, which order do I put this in?
I'm not really sure.
So we're just gonna, we're gonna go with,
um, uh, the question of, um, yeah, there's
two, there's two questions at play.
One is, um, there's new legislation in
Australia that's coming in in December
where, um, access to social media, um, is,
uh, gonna be restricted to those under 16.
And so, you know, obviously for the
youth ministry space, but potentially
also in the, in the children's ministry
space that has the potential to
kind of change the way we do things.
Um, and so we're gonna talk about that.
But then there's also, you know,
the other question is what are
some creative ways we can use.
Social media as a tool, not just
not to undermine your ministry.
And so we're gonna hit the, uh,
the legislation question first.
Uh, and you know, a couple here,
you know, how to, how do or should
the new laws against social media
for those under 16 impact our youth
ministries and phone policies?
And then, uh, a similar
and related question.
Considering the new legislation with
social media and young people in the
coming years, is it still worth investing?
Well, in good social media advertising
and promotion biblically and ethically,
this is like, adds a twist to this.
Um, particular
question, biblical biblically and
ethically should we be posting if most of
our kids won't be legally able to use it.
Um, Josh, what are your thoughts on this,