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Whether you've realized it or not, Google is dead.
Speaker 2:Because they just think, oh, it's AI slap. Right? And that's an unfortunate term, but it's the reality when there's just so much AI content out there that gets sort of pushed out.
Speaker 3:Should you just go into development, or should you go into something else? Because it's just gonna be replaced in four years. Alright. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Make an Impact podcast.
Speaker 3:I'm your host, Makoto Kern, and I'm joined again by my fellow cohosts, Brinley and Joe.
Speaker 1:Hey, everyone.
Speaker 2:Good to
Speaker 3:meet Yeah. Definitely. So today we have an exciting topic, and we're gonna start off by our search engines dead by 02/1930. The Internet as we know it has only five years left. I think, Brinley, you wanna take it away?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Good bit of a a controversial topic. I think one that's got a lot of meat to it. I think we've all got thoughts on it as well. And I was kind of thinking, well, it's AI and the extinction of the Internet search because we sort of think about, well, what was it we had to say in a few years we're really gonna feel like dinosaurs by, you know, telling our grandkids, we used to go scraping around on this thing called the Internet.
Speaker 1:We used to use these search engines, and we'd scratch around and try and find some information that we needed. And there was this old interface that you typed in things, you got these 10 search results you pick from them, and you know what you're gonna get until you went in there. And it's just a joke when you actually think that there's been such a radical shift recently in how we access information, and that really
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Casts a light on how we have been for the past, probably, two decades kind of navigating around to sort of, you know, figure out what this thing called the the Internet was. There's a whole profession, I think, probably going to try and juggle the the order of that was set out. Like, you think of the SEO profession, which we're going to a bit as well. Like, a whole profession trying to get these little sites to where they need to be and trying one up on the other one. So today, I think we've all got some points, but I'm gonna be dropping a few absolute mind shifts.
Speaker 1:Maybe not to all of the listeners. Maybe some of our listeners would be like, well, that is that's quite a a fundamental shift in in my understanding. But, yeah, these are really everything that's come about since the advent of AI. So the first one is
Speaker 2:Sorry, Brent. Before you jump in, could you just tell me the three points that you have? Because I don't wanna jump ahead and start talking about something that you may have a point to come across.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a spoiler alert,
Speaker 2:Joe. Okay. Keep it as a
Speaker 1:But we'll we'll look at search engines, and then Yeah. I guess the search engine is the first one. The other one, let's see whether we go into I can always bring it up if we do.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:The third one is kinda around SEO.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Think the big questions will answer our websites even
Speaker 2:will
Speaker 3:they even matter in five years or so? Mhmm. And what happens to human curiosity when answers are immediately available? Are we witnessing a birth of a post search Internet? I think these are some questions I will answer with the topics today.
Speaker 1:Well, that's absolutely it. And, I mean, the first one that that I wanted to talk about is whether you've realized it or not, Google is dead. So, you know, if you think of you think of search interfaces like Google, Bing, Yahoo, I mean, think really think about them. They're old. They're clunky.
Speaker 1:They're, you know, really outdated. Or to be brutally honest, their legacy interfaces. So Yeah. If you're still using them for your primary function of locating information, then it's really time to look at breaking that habit because that's an age old habit.
Speaker 2:And just to add in a bit of my own thoughts there too, I think they've kind of shot themselves in the foot a bit too, especially Google, obviously the main one. Just in the last few years, it's kind of gone downhill. Forget about ChattyPT, forget about AI in general. Just, you know, if you try and do a Google search now, like, half the results are adverts. You're not too sure, like, how they even got there.
Speaker 2:So much of it is manipulated with SEO. It just feels like trash experience just using Google, never mind, like, a competitor that's come across now. It's so much better. So I think they really were in a really poor position. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're to, I guess, get it put back up by integrating Gemini directly into search. So when you search, like, Gemini tries to get the results. They're trying to make Google another search tool. That's what they're trying to do, but it's still just Unfortunately, I feel like their first attempt at it was so poor Gemini, in the beginning at least, that first initial model left such a poor impression. First impressions matter, and Gemini really wasn't good in the beginning.
Speaker 2:So many of those search results that Gemini would come back with were just wrong entirely or just completely incorrect and manipulated, and it's kind of just like they had a really poor user experience, and then when they tried to catch up, their first offering was just so poor that I think everyone's just, yeah, completely abandoned them now, unsurprisingly.
Speaker 3:Interesting point too and a good terminology is that zero click information where right now, according to the data, it looks like Google's AI, the overview that you first see is appearing in nearly 20% of searches, with some industries seeing over 33%. So that's a fundamental shift in how information is delivered because we know the first page was always golden top 10 to get onto. And then the second page drops off dramatically. So you're pretty much screwed if you're not on that first page. So this is an interesting refinement to now you're are you only seeing the first very first information from Google AI?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And and, I mean, it really it does bring into question there are almost two sides of it. There's information discovery, which, you know, if you're using any of the interfaces of the large language models that have powered assistance, that information search is going to be far more powerful than anything. And then there's almost validating, you know, what you're looking for is, you know, going and checking sources. That's where you still need to go to this legacy interface, find what you need.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's even sped up by things like OpenAI with references that it leaves. You can go click those, actually view the site. But you do wonder if you had to abstract the information from the websites, what is the future of this going to, you know, going to become? It kind of built into the second point, which I'm going to mention, because I think there's a lot more to discuss about both of these points. But it's that the web is becoming a database, not a destination.
Speaker 1:And I think, Joe, we've spoken about this quite a lot is looking ahead, it's really about how can you surface the information on your business or your service, whether it's a service or product, how are you surfacing that information to large language models? And, you know, as we look even further to what you're saying, Nikola, about, you know, what is the future of actual websites? And, you know, is it that everything actually becomes integrated into one universal chat interface? Because imagine if we had to say, all right, if we're looking at more database approach, could we say that we just have some sort of, like, an API endpoint that becomes our site, that shows any latest content, that maybe talks a bit about our brand voice and how it should be communicated, some imagery, some interactive applications, and these all get brought into the chat stream. If you're crossing over to an experience, that experience happens in the actual stream.
Speaker 1:It almost seems archaic to go, we're gonna shift away now to a completely different, independently designed site that is, you know, going to very much rely on how much, I guess, that company or even that person invested in developing that. That's one point. But then you start looking at the small business, and small business may not have the SEO knowledge, and they may have a good product or a service or a message. And now without this sort of manipulation of search results, they could be just as relevant as anything else because you could really target it based on just honing in on that information itself, which is quite exciting. And if there are guidelines there for, right, here's a boilerplate, almost like you get the boilerplate sites now, have a boilerplate set of information and voice and imagery that even ones that the AI puts in there.
Speaker 2:I do wonder, though, so thinking of that, so you're saying basically we'll get to a point where you go to chatgpt.com, and that basically becomes your portal to everything, right? You don't go to websites anymore. You'll go to that site instead, search what you want, and it'll grab the context out of all these, you know, APIs and quotes which are hosting the content instead. I can totally see that. I guess the one the one thing that I can see that might stop that completely just becoming the norm is, I guess, user novelty and experience.
Speaker 2:Like, going to chatgpt.com, even if they make it nice and more interesting, it's always gonna be like you know, people get bored. Right? They go to they wanna go to somewhere else, see something new, a new user experience, a new design. Like, people are always looking for, like, you know, something that's fresh and interesting, and I think that's the one counter to that is I still think there'll be value and want and desire to go to a different site to get that new experience. It's not just about pure information.
Speaker 2:It's also about being entertained, just sort of having new experiences, I guess, and you will never get that if everything is just going to to one sort of site. At least with Google, you would click into those
Speaker 1:sites. I mean, who knows where it's going? But
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:What I would think is that if you think about the fact that we have to navigate around at the moment to these unique sort of independent sites, and they're controlled by whoever owns them and their content, it's not an ideal experience to sort of start jumping between the different you know, there may be different requirements in terms of support. One may be, you know, pushing a high res video and maybe, you know, certain people can't see that. What I would think is if the Internet starts behaving more like a database, you're pushing a standard. Through that standard, you define the certain interactions you could have. So imagine you're talking to ChatGPT or to Claude or any of these different large language models that you choose.
Speaker 1:You know, there'll be a whole lot of different interfaces just like the different search engines. But the the amazing part is by having some sort of standard protocol for sharing information, the experience can change. So I could say, look, I'm handing you over to, say you're going to, like, an Amazon, and that experience changes completely. So you have a slightly different, you know, way that the the bot's talking, way that visuals are brought up, you know, and even sort of interactions that you know, whether it's, you know, interactive elements or but the whole interface could be changed in a standardized way to give you that different experience. Just like as if you stepped into a store, you're talking to a different salesperson or a different tech expert or
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You're gonna feel that change of experience that is going to be more an extension of the brand coming through. And then you're sort of drifting between, so you can say, okay. Well, I'm gonna I'm chatting to Amazon now, same interface. I'm gonna order these things or maybe change the quantity of that. Can you get it to me quicker?
Speaker 1:Great. Now I wanna go book some, I don't know, theater tickets or whatever.
Speaker 2:And I guess whole thing about that too is you can be very personalized with that experience. I can be a sort of person that's like, I like my experience as being minimalist, clean. I don't want extra fluff. Just give me, like, the pure simple interface. And so it gets to know you.
Speaker 2:And and every time you ask, you know, give me information about, you know, Amazon or something to buy on Amazon or something to buy on Bidderby, right, it's it's going to still get that data, but always present it in the way that I like it presented. I don't have to go to Amazon and, like, navigate through the extremely clunky sort of catalog when you're trying to actually search for things. Like, now I can have it in the way I want it, but I can have it in the same way if it's another site that I'm actually, like, trying to access and and sort of get that information far more from the sort of person who really likes, you know, lots of visuals. And if I'm looking for products, I wanna see adverts for those products as I'm scrolling and just, like, get a really rich user experience, then that could be tailored for me so the AIs can sort
Speaker 3:of
Speaker 2:tailor it for each person, which, yeah, which would be pretty amazing.
Speaker 3:So Yeah. Yeah. So, essentially, what you're saying, it becomes a a giant chatbot, the internet, and you go from hunting to basically harvesting. You know, search is going to fragment into specialized AI tools. So like you're saying, Brittany, like shopping, research, or entertainment.
Speaker 3:And, you know, with the search, you're going from like a keyword based conversational system to more of like a you're understanding what the actual context and intent are for your search. So there definitely seems to be that shift into going from a, is your website, you're just going to throw as much information up there so then it could be pulled in by an AI chatbot? Or are you still developing this pretty looking marketing type of website where you have to worry about the user experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it. I think it could be a more standardized approach where if you have a platform, you're not having to develop. Like now, let's say you're doing a mobile first or you're building websites and they have to be on a phone and a tablet on maybe a VR headset. Are lots of different things that you need to factor in. It's almost be good if it could, in some ways, be a more standard approach that can work across all of those, and it really just harnesses the technology.
Speaker 1:So if it's on mobile, it will limit maybe some of the visuals that come across. You've got certain sort of platform specific assets you can feed it. But to be able to do that and have the standard sort of really clean experience, I guess, and also potentially a safer experience. Like, you think we want to say, well, my kids or my kid can use this, and I'm happy that as long as they stay on the platform, everything's vetted and they're not going to get anything. Maybe there's a different section that they can go off the rails and you can start getting more radical opinions or things like that, but there's a more set of approved sites that, you know, you can sort of move through.
Speaker 1:And you know that the experience is going to be, you know, safe, secure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I also wonder just sort of thinking forward, A lot of this will depend on just society's impression of AI going forward because I'm already seeing it with things like art. Art's become a very contentious topic with AI, like kind of a big the art community in general and understandably, not just, you know, art from a hobbyist point of view, but from a, you know, business point of view, generating assets, generating content. Anything that's getting AI generated now is getting quite a stigma to it. And, you know, if something gets posted, like, the first comment size is AI generated.
Speaker 2:And even if it looks good or not, people, if they see it as AI generated, they immediately want to disregard it because they just think, oh, it's AI slut. Right? And that's an unfortunate term, but it's a reality when there's just so much AI content out there that gets sort of pushed out. Taking a step back from that and just looking at what's happening with art in general and with, you know, as movies and and video is is starting to become more popular now with sort of those AI models, I do wonder if it's gonna get to a point where AI is so stigmatized that sort of, you know, your homegrown, organic, user made, human made websites are going to become more kind of people are going to prefer those even if there's a faster, better AI alternative just because I feel like this is a more human centric sort of thing that I'm witnessing. I'm going to this is someone built a site, and this is, like, you know, a human experience.
Speaker 2:Just because of the complete flood of AI content that's going out there, people just kinda wanna disregard it entirely. And so, again, with website design, is it gonna get to a point where, sure, AI could generate you a hundred websites that look amazing and work amazingly, and probably most people couldn't tell a difference. But there will be a stigma to it anyway. When they go to the site, people are going to demand, you know, you have to put in your site if this was an AI generated site or not because people will be like, oh, well, we don't wanna go to those sites. We wanna go to, like, real human sites.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing that. I'm not too sure that's gonna become a reality. Again, economy talks. And if it's just Yeah. You know, if the experience is just better and smoother, people always go with that sort of experience by default.
Speaker 2:But interested to see if that's gonna
Speaker 1:come about.
Speaker 3:I like your term AI slop, Joe. Yeah. We might have to we might have to make a t shirt from that one. But it's funny. It's interesting too because I actually talked to my son, you know, he's about to turn 17.
Speaker 3:So he, you know, he's a younger generation and as soon as they see anything that's AI generated, they immediately disregard it as garbage. Doesn't matter if it's art or video or whatever, they just see it as, this is AI generated. I see that with comments too. Online. If you see a comment or whatever, a posting and they're, oh, this AI generated, you know, they won't get past the first two sentences if you recognize, oh, this is Chad GBT.
Speaker 3:But it and it is interesting because there is a retro feeling where my son is actually looking at they love the, you know, the old record players, the tape, like video tape, recorders. They love that retro feel because there's buttons, there's something physical that you click and press. And that becomes like the cool thing to have. I mean, I think the old flip phones now are are pretty much in style and same with the Sony Walkmans. They love having that kind of, like, thing versus having because I'm like, why do you want a camera that actually, you know, you have to take a picture.
Speaker 3:Your cat your phone does that. And they're like, no. No. This is really cool. This is what we we like playing with this.
Speaker 3:I'm like, it doesn't make
Speaker 2:sense, though. So you're saying we should invest in Kodak again quickly.
Speaker 3:I think so. Investigate.
Speaker 2:But I
Speaker 1:think there there's there's probably a line there that we can draw between content creation and AI tools for increased efficiency and experience. And I think that's where AI strong I don't think people want AI necessarily to create art or music or even design, even what I'm talking about, this platform, that could still be all human generated content. So instead of designing a site, you're just working in that framework, but it just makes a lot of the things that we want to be easy, really, a lot easier. And, you know, if you can think of someone let's even look at something like, you know, teaching kids about history. Imagine that your site has a lot of good human written content, but you can package it in, you know, a way of someone from, you know, the the eighteen hundreds delivering a talk about American history or anything like that, and it feels more authentic and it changes the experience.
Speaker 1:And I think, you know, it's things like that. And then also, if you can do your grocery shopping and just say, I want this brand and this, this, without having to go and actually manually search and click it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I totally agree.
Speaker 1:So much better.
Speaker 2:Day to day tasks. Right? Task orientated stuff like shopping, like, just buying stuff. Just like tasks you don't really you know, you don't wanna really be emotionally connected to, like arts or, like, content. You just wanna get the job done.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's, yeah, that's open doors for AI because no one really cares.
Speaker 1:But then then you think even even things like, oh, there's no reason that you couldn't use you couldn't, you know, be representing and and showing real art on the sort of feeds field to discuss it and build people's appreciation of it. It should be, you know, anything that is AI. You know, keep AI where it's really useful. You know, still appreciate and foster humans actually generating all the cultural things that we want. But, you know, I wouldn't mind looking at, you know, if I could go through again and look at any of the famous art galleries and be able to actually see an artwork pulled up on my screen and be able to talk about it, maybe understand the paint techniques.
Speaker 1:That's really for learning, that's invaluable. Or even critiquing a movie that is I just think that there's got to be boundaries of, like, right, we don't necessarily want AI just rehashing things that are done already. And I think people will find that balance and realize that, okay, well, you know, it's not necessarily what people want. So you know? But it still has a place.
Speaker 3:I think the if we you know, we touched upon the people who create this you know, create videos or create websites or create things to drive traffic to them, they gotta adapt to being almost, I mean, basically they're being cited versus being visited. So your traditional revenue generating models of ads and things like that are gonna have to change. And like if you're an authoritative person on that content, I think those are probably obviously surface more through the AI, which hopefully it raises that kind of bar for creators who are developing the content. But then again, that's like the whole shift where you may not get the actual experts, you just get somebody who's very good at talking about it versus somebody who actually knows about it. Just like the top 10 in SEO, if you're, you may not be the best or the most popular, it's just that you know how to optimize your website.
Speaker 3:So you automatically become, you know, the most visited site. So there's definitely gonna be shifts in how and who like it surfaced.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was interesting. An article I was reading recently was saying that Google is obviously in trouble because search is going to change. But they're saying that they were calling it their side hustle, which is YouTube, because it's always been sort of kept already branded to Google, anything like that, is actually going to be their saving grace because people will want that video content. And those can be pulled into streams, these sort of conversation streams really easily and say, I'm looking for this. I mean, really, you see OpenAI, you know, kind of plugging, YouTube videos if something's relevant.
Speaker 1:And, you know, that's how it should be. Things should just come in and out of your stream based on your conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I guess from a a technical perspective, it's not like Google's actually gone away. It's not like search engines have gone away. We just don't go to them ourselves. The AIs are still using them.
Speaker 2:Like, you know, ChatGPT or whatever will still search the web for you. So I think just from a technical perspective, that act of, you know, indexing content that's on the web and accessing it and all that infrastructure isn't going anywhere. Google will still have all their data centers. But, again, as you said, Brent, it's we have to think of it more as like a database of information now rather than, you know, individual places that people visit. The whole infrastructure is not going anywhere, for sure.
Speaker 2:It's just sort of changing how it's accessed now, and now it's AI access and sort of human access for the most part.
Speaker 1:And you could think if it does sort of change formats, you know, if there's a different endpoint that you'd have your site, maybe the internet could be that whole sort of search function could also be fundamentally changed if instead they're just these endpoints surfacing certain information. Yeah,
Speaker 2:mean, do you think does AI even need that? I mean, all you really have to do is just throw content at it. It can put it into the format that it needs, even if it's HTML. It doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be some new special format.
Speaker 2:Like, AIs just will work it out for you. You just have to provide the content. That's it. Pictures, text, in any format, text files, PDFs, whatever. You just throw it into some folder, it'll just yeah.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's all you need to do, and it'll take it from there. And when people access it, it'll all look amazing and well structured in their, yeah, generated AI content. But from your perspective, you just bring in content too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think I think you touched on the the one point about personalization, but there's there's probably a personalization kind of paradox where most people do expect that, but then it creates these like filter bubbles. So you're limiting the discovery. So when you do go down those rabbit holes or if you do find things because you're not finding it at first, you're kind of limited now to this constraints of what the AI filters. So, may are you limiting that kind of curiosity or are you limiting that just because the user is now satisfied with whatever answer they're given, but that's what most people are satisfied with.
Speaker 3:So you never get to discover new things or new views on something because that's what most people are presented by when it comes to that personalization.
Speaker 1:It could be. I wonder, though, if there's not a human bias that. You you may be someone that is either looking for for sure, in the amount of time that I've maybe opened Facebook and I've spent ten, fifteen minutes scrolling, doomscrolling, and just realized I could be actually applying myself and learning a lot more, but I'm just going to keep going. It's something satisfying about it. And you kind of think, you know, could it be a similar thing where if you're interested in kind of asking more questions about dogs or cats or something like something completely irrelevant to the deeper, more meaningful things in life, you know, you can you can do them there.
Speaker 1:But if maybe if you're, you know, you're motivated to do it, you'll you'll step out of that that sort of comfort zone. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's a funny thing because I I don't know if you've played with Grok recently. So, you know, with Grok, they have different types of personalities. They have everything from, like, sexy to something else. I mean, it's pretty funny, the different personalities because it wants I want to engage just to see how they respond to something. It's almost having a conversation with your smart ass friend, your friend that's super, you know, intelligent or the one that just, you know, is rough around the edges and they'll tell you like it is, you know, there's definitely a sense of that doom scrolling or dopamine where I want to play with the responses and see what I get.
Speaker 3:You know, that's one way to handle it where, you know, even if you're introverted, still want to text and still interact with something that is artificial, but does have a personality, which is interesting.
Speaker 1:But also the way that I don't know whether you saw, complete tangent, the latest Boston Dynamics robots.
Speaker 3:Oh, Yep.
Speaker 1:Now you just think Yeah, put
Speaker 2:AI in that.
Speaker 1:I know. Now you just think there's a very, very kind of We're close to those being merged together where you can just say, Hey, buddy, just order me this and go pick up this for me.
Speaker 2:Definitely. Yeah. Because I think it's something it's, like, technically possible right now. They just there just isn't, the infrastructure for it, but I don't see why it couldn't be.
Speaker 3:I'm just thinking when you instead of instead of a human robbing you or mugging you, you send a couple of these after, you're like, how can I fight that thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The applications of yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we've been talking about virtually right now how AI is gonna change the virtual world, yeah, physical world, again, as you say with robots like that, so, like, every aspect of the world, like, you know, construction, home security Mhmm. You know, dangerous jobs, jobs people don't wanna do with those robots. Like, that's what's gonna take over all of that. Yeah. It's gonna be crazy where where that goes.
Speaker 2:That's a whole next stage of
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:AI impact, I think, we're gonna see.
Speaker 1:And then looking at those personas, I mean, I'm sure Elon must have thought, okay. Well, let's these personas so they can go into, you know, the bots he's developing, and, you know, you can pick those. The more comedic, the serious, the you know, it's just Mhmm. It's a great feature for what would you like your robot to be. And it'd be quite funny if they had that in factories.
Speaker 1:I don't know, just a mix. Just have the joker and the serious philosophical guy, and they're quite amusing. The next point I had was SEO is the new fax machine. So the more that people start using large language models and break away from the search, the less and less relevant SEO is going to be. Because at the moment, there's nothing that I'm aware of that's tying website ranking to the fact that these large language models have scraped everything.
Speaker 1:So if it's Well,
Speaker 2:just to add in there, I just want to ask you this question because you're talking about it. When I ask ChattyPT something like, how do I use ConceptX and I ask it to use a search, and it is using search, I can see it searching through websites and it returns results, I do wonder how it's getting those rankings, like, what search engine is it using? I presume it's using Bing because they have such a close partnership with Microsoft. I presume the back end is Bing. It's still going out in the web in the web, but still searching for results.
Speaker 2:There must be some ranking as determining, okay, when I ask this question and it's getting the context from these three sites, how did it choose that? I think there must still be some sort of SEO going. Is it just going by Bing's top results? Is it really just doing the same thing?
Speaker 1:It could be, but then it depends. Like, I would think if you look at large language model, we think it scraped everything that's accessible. Therefore, it's made its own sort of links there. So if you're asking a question and it's falling back on that, it's going to pull something that could be thousand buried, you know, thousands deep in search results, but it's pulling that out. Now you ask it to search on that, it's going to be specifically searching on that specific item, which may bring back more relevant searches for that.
Speaker 1:So definitely search is tied in. But I wonder if it's not surfacing things that wouldn't have been there originally in generating these sort of new search queries based on those. So it'll be interesting to see. It
Speaker 3:goes into if you want to check out our last podcast about the AI arms race, it kind of touches upon some of that where we're the new kind of gatekeepers. And, you know, like you said, how deep that information goes, what are they using to curate that information? Can we trust that information? Is it a hallucination? Is it an actual citation?
Speaker 3:That's where we have to understand that gap, where it's coming from, who's the gatekeeper, and whoever is that gatekeeper now, you know, what is their intent? Thank goodness there are multiple competitors now in this space and you're seeing differences and, oh yeah, for now, for a price, you see everything from the pricing differences to, you know, how the information is brought up. And there's known biases. It was actually on X where they showed which AIs have been taught to be, whether you're political or not, to be more woke, less woke, to have like DEI, to whatever, no, controversial topic there is, to be more biased towards those things and to present it as, oh, this is okay versus something that maybe is more objective isn't that way. So it's interesting to see how that is going to play out.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, people, when they ask questions, generally want to get, like, you know, the answer that they want to hear back. Mhmm. And if they ask one AI model that question, they get an answer that they want back, they ask another one, and it does give them the answer back that they want to hear, just sort of, confirming their bias. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:They'll just go with that. And you're gonna have, without question, I think, leaning models just because that's user behavior, and users will gravitate to something that they feel mirrors their own beliefs more than something else, just human nature, I guess. So,
Speaker 1:yeah, I like to
Speaker 2:not consider going that way.
Speaker 1:When it changes from SEO to really become AIO, you know, AI optimization, what is that? I I remember we had the black hat and and white hat techniques Mhmm. You know, for SEO where, you know, what are the the black hat techniques gonna be for AIO? Because if you're releasing a lot of false information, is that just being scraped up and taken into the mix? You know, can you start making your content more prominent by sort of covering more points of view?
Speaker 1:Or, you know, how are you going to get it to really group your content in a multitude of different sort of subject nodes in the model to to try and, you know, get more hits that way.
Speaker 3:So no more same color font as the background as you keyword load Yeah. You'll just embed it into an image, you know, a happy image. You'll embed all this, you know, copy in there.
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 2:remember those It is one interesting angle there. Like, can you trick AI into sort of indexing content that it wasn't expecting? Because, you know, there's still a human deciding which content gets included in these models. And if that human makes a mistake or sees a site that looks completely harmless and they go, oh, this site has good content. What is there what?
Speaker 1:It is there that I didn't even think there was that form of gatekeeping just from the sheer volume of content that it's got to digest.
Speaker 2:It's got to. There's still someone who decides what data is trained by the model. It's like human team that decides that, right? Not just going out the internet.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't that be a huge sign? I mean, you think of the amount that it's ingested would take probably teams years and years and years to kind of work through. I stand to be corrected. That was my understanding.
Speaker 2:There's no what's the alternative? There's no real other way it can be done. There's still it has to be a human deciding what data I mean, I'm sure they got huge servers that they just sort of add in all this data to petabytes and then just sort of train the model on that. But still is, you know, traditionally, at least, maybe in the future, obviously, AI AIs will go and decide what they want to grab from the Internet. But at least these initial models are definitely all human connected.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And I'm sure they have to be, in a way, at least like a list of everything that was it was trained on. There's a whole copyright thing going on right now too with it's OpenAI, I see I see his name again.
Speaker 1:Someone Old
Speaker 2:man. I don't why. Yeah. Sam Old man. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sam Old man. Yeah. That's yeah. So he's he's having a huge thing at the moment legally trying to say, like, copyright material needs to be completely open to AI models to get trained on. There should be no sort of legislation around that because if that's not the case, then they lose.
Speaker 2:Like, you know, if that's the legislation, America will lose their AI arms race because competitors out there in other countries will just turn it all up and and use anything that's out there. And so yeah. Just going back to my point, right now, there's definitely a human collated sort of database of that. But in the future, if it's AIs just going out and grabbing it all, there has to be some way, like, if it came back with a wrong answer, like a really bad answer, like how to build a bomb, how did that information get into this AI model? Like, where did it come from?
Speaker 2:And there has to be some sort of audit trail. So So that's why I think at the moment, they definitely have that. If AIs are just going out in the future and just deciding on their own what's relevant, then, yeah, that'll be interesting to try and work out. But whole other mess does
Speaker 1:work through. Though. There's such radical changes happening, And it's just it's interesting to think five years, and then it probably will be you know, that's probably the time that we'll see search engines completely changing, and it's gonna be interesting to be a part of that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't even know if it's gonna be five years.
Speaker 3:I know. I think some interesting kind of future views. You discussed that kind of your three topics you wanted to bring up, right, Brinley?
Speaker 1:I have, yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool. I think some things to think about for our future is how is AI and humans developing a complementary role in information processing? Like just something to think about, like how's that gonna evolve? You know, obviously we have AI agents. Do you have one always running in the background for you?
Speaker 3:You know, is that something that's the only way that it could be complementary? Is there anything else that you could think of?
Speaker 1:Well, besides Neuralink. What's happening? Because Neuralink, that's the step that's gonna be ideal.
Speaker 3:That's a good point.
Speaker 1:Being able to just tap into that and just an extension of your own intelligence is
Speaker 3:We all become Morpheus and Neo.
Speaker 1:It's actually trinity. It's probably not that far off. I always think back to that, it was like, wow, that's really great. But now what is the difference here? I remember that one scene where I think they're pulling the specs on the military helicopter, like how to fly it.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Probably not that If you think If you had a Neuralink or something, you could probably even have the muscle memory kind of baked into a download to be able to pilot something like that.
Speaker 3:It's Can't be too hard. You're just monitoring pulses from your spine to your joints and your So that's easy stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the easy part. But I think one thing that'll definitely, I guess, just outside of asking for knowledge and requesting knowledge is just having something that has a huge memory that's just constantly running, listening to you the whole day, everything that you say, everything that you type in your computer, every human interaction that you have, everything that you're looking at, if you think of, like, you know, Google Glass and and things like that, that'll sort of monitoring what you're looking at. That's just basically recording your every single day, every single interaction that you have. You'll be able to literally ask, like, three years ago on this day, you know, what was that during that day? Instantly, you get the answer.
Speaker 2:And just sort of having that augmented memory to sort of sitting there outside of just asking it to do things to you, just having all that knowledge of your whole life just permanently available Mhmm. Is gonna be a very different sort of paradigm too just because it's just so easy to look back and ask it what's going on, and it knows everything about you, and you can literally build a model of you, I guess. If you had it running your whole life, I mean, it knows you so well. Yeah. It'll be an interesting to see.
Speaker 1:And you sort of say, give me an honest how am I doing in this thing called life? Are you about 45%? Real total. You're way below. Oh.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I mean, if you think about it, if it's managing your whole life as you go through life, I mean, can share can spot you going down certain, you know, paths you shouldn't go down. It can see you going down a mental hole that you shouldn't be, and they can start, you know, counseling you and saying, know, hi. Look. You know, it's a day that you spent extra three hours just browsing TikTok normally, and you do longer.
Speaker 2:Is everything okay? How are feeling? And then it can start to try and, like, you know, get get you out of bad habits. Or if it's more of your food intake, you've been eating a lot of ice cream recently, like, what's going on there? And it can I don't know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, it can really sort of help people just, you know, learning wise to, hey. Look. I know you've spent the whole day playing computer games today, but, you know, you gotta study for your exams. And then let's sit down and go through it together, and it's sort of, like, trying to help you through life a bit more than just us thinking of it as some entity that we're just using, just for knowledge and information that can actually guide you through life and pick up on patterns just because it's looked at models of people who haven't worked out in life and have, you know, ended up on the streets, and now it knows, okay.
Speaker 2:What were the decisions to get to that point? How can I make sure that my human doesn't make sort of similar bad mistakes? Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting, especially when it says, like, you keep complaining about the the robot army outside your door. Don't worry about them. It's not a Really, don't keep asking me.
Speaker 1:They're there for your own benefit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a good thing. I
Speaker 3:think this next point, it's interesting where, you know, what skills will become more valuable as AI handles these routine information tasks and how does this reshape how education work and just human development overall? I think this is interesting because I have, again, I have, you know, kids are at that cusp. It's almost the same as when the dot com boom happened. That's when, you know, I was kind of already into my engineering profession at that time, but growing up into that and just as my kids are growing up with AI versus, you know, their kids will have it just there, just like mobile devices and the internet's just there for them and that's what they're used to. They're now at the cusp of like, I'm trying to get my kids to say, Hey, just leverage it.
Speaker 3:Leverage the AI, use it all the time to help you accelerate what you need to learn. But to understand what should they study in school, that's a hard thing to figure out. Like, should you just go into development or should you go into something else because it's just going to be replaced in four years.
Speaker 2:Definitely. My immediate thoughts on that are, and this is kind of going out quite far further into future though, but I do think as AI takes over like the mundane tasks that people do right now until, you know, we can get AI into robotics, anything that has to, you know, have a human physical interaction. Right? So forget about anything that just requires, you know, like, coding or driving a vehicle or anything that's mundane that can just be automated. But anything that can be done in the physical world that needs a human actual approach, like looking after children, looking after, you know, old people or, you know, building buildings right now, at least, you know, again, that might change in the future.
Speaker 2:But anything that requires, like, a physical human presence to actually get it done, I mean, that's, at least for now, pretty safe. But, yeah, as, I mean, as robotics take off and it integrates with that, that could change too, in which case, it's gonna fall back. Okay. So you can't use your brain to create anything interesting because, at least from a pure technical task focused perspective, you can't use your body anymore to do stuff because there's robots out there that do it better and faster and never need sleep. So I think it's gonna fall back to creative side of things Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because that's one thing AI can't do is be creative. It can look at everything else that's been done before, at least for now, right, until, you know, AGI comes along, but at least for now. As we look at the landscape, it can't come up with new topics. It can't think of new things or create new art or do anything like novel that's human. I think any industry that sort of requires creativity in that way, that would be my best sort of approach to go with because, again, that just can't be really replicated properly by AI.
Speaker 2:It can make you think it can, but when you dig deeper and you sort of look into it, you can you know, obviously, it's generated that from existing human content. It hasn't actually created Yeah. Exactly. Even though it may be not that obvious.
Speaker 1:So you could say, kids, you got ten years until AGI comes along. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Pick wisely.
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's very it's also I I wonder to look at the psychological difference with it. I'd just be very curious. Like, I would imagine we're using it, you know, very much to, you know, to prove concepts we're thinking about, to provide us with more information. But if you haven't developed maybe those more analytical thinking skills or even conceptual thinking skills, do you rely on it more to try and make decisions for you like that?
Speaker 1:We've come from a time where you had nothing to reference and you had to make decisions by yourself. You couldn't lean on anything apart from maybe getting advice from someone. And that helps maybe structure the way you think, where you make decisions. But for a younger generation where they have access to this all the time, I'm curious how their decision making has changed. Do do they have less confidence in their own decisions without running it by an AI, let's say, oh, should I take that course at university?
Speaker 1:Or I don't know. Let me ask. Like, what does the AI think about it?
Speaker 3:It's almost like if you could try to match it up with, you know, when we were using abacuses back in the day, I wasn't, that was before my time, but when we jumped to calculators and then from calculators to spreadsheets, that transition or from libraries to Google search. What was the mindset at that time when you're thinking, my god, we're gonna get replaced, you know, and accountants are gonna be replaced because of the spreadsheets, which they didn't. Now they might be, but before they weren't.
Speaker 2:Still impacted that whole industry because you'd have jobs with people whose job it was, like, build out their spreadsheets menu with a calculator. And while accountants weren't replaced entirely, I'm sure a lot of, you know, that work went away. Mhmm. And it was just left with some more sort of nuanced high level accountants.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean
Speaker 2:Overall sort of figures.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I guess you could because you're able to gather large data sets and do it faster, maybe that's the onset of, you know, obviously, like the quant trading with stocks and everything, can do it so fast rapidly. And now it's really just all these kind of bots are helping you trade and you're just developing the algorithms and detecting patterns. That's what came into fruition from that. And maybe what's, you know, that's how something is going to with AI, it's going to evolve some other industries into a much faster, bigger data sets.
Speaker 3:Maybe, like you said, maybe just a mundane task goes away. And now it's something far more complex that we didn't even think of because it's outside the box. Whether it's space exploration, finding other asteroids or planets that have minerals or something like that, that's very hard to do and it takes so much computation power. But now with AI, we can all kind of like it's almost like panning for gold or something like that. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, it's it's again, like, throughout human history, this has just constantly come up where there's an established way of doing something and then some new technology comes along totally appease that entire sort of industry. And as humans, we always bounce back and find sort of new ways of doing things. You know?
Speaker 2:Previously, fob would need a thousand workers on it, and now you can have, like, you know, 10 machines and 10 workers. Mhmm. I mean, we're still here. We're still you know? K.
Speaker 2:Not the whole world is doing okay, but we're not worse shape than we were. Quality of life generally is improving even though all these things have happened and changed and people have lost their jobs over the centuries because of it all, and human quality of life is getting better. We're all smarter and eating better and healthier. And so, you know, if you look at that trajectory, you know, although it can seem scary now long term, I still think it'll work out. Humans do find a way of just sort of finding other things to do and focusing on that instead and innovating.
Speaker 1:It may be through things like universal income as well. Like, there may Mhmm. There may be a a completely different economic landscape that that countries need to follow to actually keep it balanced. Definitely.
Speaker 2:The problem is that right now, we're moving very slowly. AI is moving so fast, but humanity is moving slowly. Like, a lot of the time, like, you know, when I talked about the sort of, you know, changes in the industry and and changes the way things have happened, there's a slow process. Right? So farmers, you know, farm work is getting replaced by machines.
Speaker 2:That wasn't done in two or three years. That was done, you know, for two or three centuries probably over time. Mhmm. So Mhmm. Very slow adjustment that, you know, people could find other things to do.
Speaker 2:Whereas with AI, it's happening so fast, and I think our legislation is so far behind our way of thinking about life. Like you just say, universal income. I mean, that's gonna have to happen, but we're so far behind that. I mean, as you mentioned earlier, I was just thinking about the education system now too. Our education system is so antiquated.
Speaker 2:We're still making kids memorize lists and memorize, you know, information. It's like that's the most that should've been out, like, twenty years ago with computers and storage. Everyone's carrying around phones with the world's knowledge at their fingertips. Why make people memorize, like, just pages and pages of how to do things? It's pointless.
Speaker 2:So just, yeah, just from looking at our overall society, we're moved slow. Like, we're still teaching kids now that we taught them, like, fifty years ago almost in many ways, same fundamental least fundamental sort of way of teaching, and it's just, like, we're so slow in that regard, never mind legislation to sort of keep up with how AI is gonna change things. So there might be a bit of a dip, think, when, you know, things get taken over by AI and by robotics, we're just a bit slow to catch up with it. And then, you know, there'll be drama, and people have to, oh, we have gotta make these big decisions. And I think, you know, big legislation will get pushed through then, and society will change.
Speaker 2:But I think it's gonna happen pretty quick, and there's gonna be a bit of turmoil probably before everyone bounces back after that. I don't know. We'll have to see.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think I think it's a good cause for us to become more space faring civilization at that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. We'll have to expand. Otherwise, we'll be all over each other and there'll be AI actual wars fighting with all these robots from Boston Dynamic and I, Robot movie.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So cool. I think I think that's a good good place to end for this podcast. A lot of great topics we discussed for sure. Yeah. I think maybe one question to leave the audience is what's, you know, what's the one thing you'd miss about today's Internet if it were to drastically change?
Speaker 3:Be a good thing, good thought thing there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good question.
Speaker 3:Tell yourself. Yeah, thanks again for tuning in. Like and subscribe to our channel and talk to you next time. Thanks everybody.
Speaker 2:Thanks Bye.