After IV

Comparison is literally killing us. But the antidote is probably simpler than you think. Pastor and author Jay Kim joins this week to share about joy deeply rooted in God's goodness as the remedy our souls need for constant comparison in this digital age.

Jay Kim is the lead pastor of Westgate Church in Silicon Valley and the author of the IVP titles Analog Christian and Analog Church.

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Creators & Guests

Host
Jon Steele
Jon Steele, a 2011 InterVarsity alumnus from Minnesota State Mankato, lives in Mankato, MN with his wife Kaitlynn and their two daughters. He’s been on staff with InterVarsity since 2012 and has been hosting After IV since its debut in 2020. He is also the producer and primary editor for the podcast. Jon enjoys gaming, reading, and leading worship at his church.
Guest
Jay Kim
Jay Kim is the lead pastor of Westgate Church in Silicon Valley and the author of the IVP titles Analog Christian and Analog Church.
Editor
Stephen Albi
Stephen, his wife Ashley (a fellow IV'er), and their two daughters live in Central Illinois. Stephen is a pastor, avid rugby fan, and has his own line of homemade hot sauces!

What is After IV?

Hey, InterVarsity alumni! This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition you’re making and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks and months. We’re here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying "Yes!" to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

After IV
E91: Joy Instead of Comparison: Anchored in God’s Goodness with Jay Kim
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your InterVarsity chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

What's up! Welcome to After IV, the podcast for InterVarsity alumni. I'm Jon Steele, your host. Longtime listeners, great to have you back. And for all you first-timers out there, welcome to the show. So glad you made it. Take just a second to hit that subscribe button so that you can stay in the loop with future episodes tailor-made for you and this post-graduation season of life. Real quick, this is our second to last episode before we take a break for a few weeks. But don't worry. In the interim, you'll get some great unheard moments from a few of our recent conversations. And then we'll be back with some brand new episodes with brand new guests, and a few familiar voices as well. So stay tuned for that. All right, we all know that we live in an era of unprecedented and rapidly evolving technological advances, not the least of which is the tiny supercomputer that we all carry around in our pocket. And the possibilities that we hold in our hand when we use that device feel limitless. We literally have the knowledge of the world at our fingertips. And there are so many amazing things that we can do with that technology, like listening to your favorite alumni podcast, just one example. However, we're also learning that for all the good they're capable of these advances are equally capable of dismantling us the hours upon hours that we spend staring at a screen consuming content scrolling through the filtered versions of others lives. These things are rewiring and wreaking havoc on us mind, soul and body. Our guest this week and next is here to help us better understand some of these realities, yes to provide some sobering insights but to also provide encouragement and helpful formation for our souls. Our guest Jay Kim is a pastor and author of the IVP title analog Christian cultivating contentment, resilience and wisdom in the digital age. I loved this book so challenging, so encouraging and hopeful, and Jay and I are going to discuss some of the learning that comes out of it. Before we start, I just want to read you one paragraph that helps set up Jay’s perspective in this book. This moment comes from the introduction, Jay says, a life of increasing contentment, resilience, and wisdom is something we're all after. And in one way or another most of us know that the digital age has dangerously undone some of the necessary work of such a life. But there is an ancient and timeless remedy for this undoing a way to come up for analog air above the digital smoke. In his letter to the Galatians Paul writes, walked by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Galatians 5:16. He goes on to describe the results of this walking by the Spirit as the cultivation of what he identifies as the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control, Galatians, 5:22 and 23. Friends Jay has some great wisdom for us today. And I'm excited to share that with you over the next couple episodes. So here's Jay, and this one's for you alumni. 

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Hey Jay! Welcome to the podcast.

Jay Kim  3:46  
Yeah. Thanks for having me. Glad to be on.

Jon Steele  3:48  
I'm glad to have you. How's life in Silicon Valley?

Jay Kim  3:52  
Life in Silicon Valley is life in Silicon Valley. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know any other life. I've been here basically my whole life. So it's home. And I love it. Despite its challenges.

Jon Steele  4:04  
Yes, I have to imagine that it is quite a trip living in Silicon Valley that there's just like, nothing quite like it.

Jay Kim  4:11  
I agree. Yes, it's a unique place. It's a beautiful place with wonderful people. Obviously, it's sort of a hub for innovation and technology, to be sure. And it's got its own challenges. But you know, I think that's true of most places. You know, most places are unique and they have their own sort of culture and ethos and narrative and history and story and all of that.

Jon Steele  4:33  
Absolutely. Well we're gonna spend some time talking about your book analog Christian cultivating contentment, resilience and wisdom in the digital age. And the the book itself and its content, I think is especially interesting. I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this given where you live and the you know, the water that you're swimming in. It seems particularly interesting, pertinent. But before we dive in, Jay, would you just take a moment to introduce yourself. Help me and the rest of our audience get to know you a little bit.

Jay Kim  5:02  
Yeah, my name is Jay Kim. And like I said earlier, I have been here in the Silicon Valley for basically my entire life moved around a lot as a kid, but I've been here. And yeah, I'm a follower of Jesus, have been for why I grew up going to church, but had a sort of season of deconstruction, which, sadly, is quite common now. But at a season of deconstruction, my freshman, sophomore years of college, but thankfully, the Lord drew me back by his good grace, and since my early 20s, have at least tried, you know, stumbled and tried to faithfully follow Jesus. Yeah, and I've been a local church pastor since my early 20s, was a youth pastor, youth and college ministry pastor for about a decade and then help plant a church, and then spent some time as a teaching pastor, and now leading a community that I love, right here in Silicon Valley.

Jon Steele  6:01  
That's awesome. What a story and what a hopeful reminder for there's probably many, many of us that are experiencing some level of deconstruction, or are closely tied to people who are, and to know that there is there's hope to be held on to and in the midst of those stories of being drawn back into the arms of Jesus. And that, that's awesome. I love that. Jay, do you have like a history with InterVarsity as a college student? Or are these couple of titles that you've written with? IVP? Is that your was that your introduction to a relationship with InterVarsity?

Jay Kim  6:32  
Yeah, I mean, I've known of InterVarsity for a really long time. I remember, in high school, going to an urban admissions conference. And obviously, InterVarsity is very deeply, intricately tied there. And, and so yeah, I mean, throughout my life, there were these moments where IV had this beautiful, profound impact on me. And then for many years, once I became a pastor, I've benefited greatly from so many InterVarsity press books, you know, so, yeah, the Ministry has had a profound impact on my life, but there was no because I was deconstructing I was never a part of college campus ministry or anything like that. But yeah, the Ministry of InterVarsity on a number of levels has had a profound impact on my life. I've had friends in recent years who were doing a lot of work with IV. And then yeah, my first sort of real familial connection was the these last two books, you know that I had the privilege and joy of working on with the crew at InterVarsity. So yeah, it's been a joy.

Jon Steele  7:38  
That's really cool. I have no authority to do so. But I would say based on your Urbana experience, in your IVP experience, you are a legitimate InterVarsity alum. So you're part of the crowd.

Jay Kim  7:50  
I receive it. Thank you. I received that. That's great.

Jon Steele  7:53  
Hey, let's start to shift our focus towards analog Christian here. Can you give us just a brief overview of the book and what it was that prompted you to write it in the first place?

Jay Kim 8:05
Yeah, the book is it's a prayer. It's like a long 50,000 word prayer. And I wrote another book a few years ago, called Analog Church. Yes. Well, Christian is sort of a follow up. But analog church, I would say I wrote it with primarily church leaders and pastors in mind that this book, analog Christian, one, it's far more personal. It was a prayerful response to some things I was sort of seeing in my own life, in particular, the ways in which I was coming on done, because of my own digital addictions and my own sort of constant, incessant nonstop desire to reach from my back pocket at any moment of boredom. Yes. And I had a very strong sense, this is not the life God has for me, nor for anybody. And what I'm not saying is, you know, “cell phones are the devil,” you know, “smartphones are the great enemy of God.” That's not what I'm saying. It's actually not really primarily, I'm not critiquing digital technology, on the whole, really what it's about is the human condition, and the ways in which the addictive nature of various technological realities in our lives, if we are not thoughtful, if we are not intentional with our lives, we'll lose our lives. Yeah, we'll lose our real lives into the digital ether. Because these realities are so deeply addictive, and intentionally. So you know, that's sort of the bottom line for a lot of social media companies in particular, is to keep us scrolling and swiping and clicking. So I wrote the book, because I was thinking about and wrestling with in my own life, my own sort of journey, and I found a lot of hope in Paul's words in Galatians 5, you know the famous passage about the fruit of the Spirit. I've known that passage and they had that passage memorized for years. But it wasn't until I began looking at it again through the lens of my own struggle, that I realized, Oh, this is it. This is the antidote to so much that is coming undone in me because of my digital addictions.

Jon Steele  10:24  
Yes. And that's, that's something that I really love about analog Christian is, rather than just focusing on the problem, and giving, hey, here's three simple steps for being more analog, that you, you really do take what feels to me like in the world of positive psychology, that you're not just focusing on unhealth and rooting out bad things. And like, this is the problem, let's really demonize the problem and get rid of it, that you really spend time spotlighting the healthy pursuit instead. I love that about this book is that like you said, it doesn't feel like this is just like a witch hunt, sort of book that it feels like this is our unhealthy reality that we live in. But there is a healthy alternative and a healthy pursuit. And let's turn our eyes towards that sort of whatever is lovely, whatever is noble, think about these things that that feels like the encouragement that you're giving in this book. And as you already have explained that the the fruit of the Spirit, and fruit growing on a tree, to me is like what's more analog than fruit growing on a tree? Yeah, that's just like, so real life. I love that. That's the model that you used for outlining your book. So we're going to focus in on two chapters as best as we can. And we'll see what time allows for here over this episode, and the next. And that's joy instead of comparison, and self control instead of reckless indulgence. That's chapters two and eight, respectively. So let's jump into joy instead of comparison. As I already said, you don't live in the stats, you don't just dwell on the problems around these topics, but you also don't shy away from them. So before we get too far into this topic, can you just help ground us in reality a little bit? Can you share some information that helps us get a handle on the problems surrounding comparison and social media in particular?

Jay Kim  12:14  
Yeah, let's talk comparison. But I think the build up to that's really important, because I think we have to embrace our actual reality, and not our sort of preferred reality. So some of the data 84% of Americans admit these are the ones who admit it. Yeah, by the way. 84% admit that they could not go one full day without their smartphone. Wow. So I think the reality of those who actually can't go a full day is much higher than 84%. Because I think we often deceive ourselves. They've done some of the math social media users will spend if you average it out over the average lifespan, social media users will spend more than five years five full years on social media five full years of your life.

Jon Steele  13:05  
And you say this is the average, which means that there is significantly higher use.

Jay Kim  13:09  
Absolutely, the average smartphone user spends more than three hours a day on their phone. So you think about how many waking hours you have. Let's say you sleep eight hours a day, you're awake for 16. Three out of 16. That's like almost a fifth of your day. Yeah, on your phone. And you know, the average Apple actually released the stat. A couple of years ago, the average smartphone user or iPhone user unlocks their phone 150 times a day. You know, that's an addictive tech, the need to constantly swipe and open. So that's important to establish we are on our phones, more than we think we are for most people. Absolutely. So what is happening there? Well, primarily, especially for those listening. I think, you know, post-college generationally speaking, that generation, our generation, you know, we are on our phones more than most Yes, and what the research is showing, in particular, when it comes to social media and even parts of news media, it is having a significant adverse effect on our mental health and on our well being. Much of it fueled by unhealthy levels of comparison, that sort of bubbled up to the surface when you spend an inordinate amount of time on social media. For as an example, a few years ago, the University of Pennsylvania did a pretty significant study, where researchers were measuring levels of anxiety, depression, loneliness, and then FOMO, you know, the fear of missing out as well as a new sort of term that I think is fascinating, called flobo. Yeah, which is a fear of better options, you know, and they started studying all of this and they had all sorts of ways of studying how social media use was impacting and influencing level of and levels of anxiety, depression, loneliness, FOMO and FOMO. And unsurprisingly, they found that over a three week period, they had two groups and participants who intentionally limited their use of social media felt significantly reduced levels of all of those things, way less anxiety, way less depression, way less loneliness, way less FOMO and FOMO. And this was across the board with hundreds and hundreds of participants in each group. A university in Canada several years ago did actually a very famous, now well known study, where they asked 120 college women to sort of remove Facebook and Instagram. And then over the course of several weeks, measured their feelings about their own appearance. And long story short, what they discovered was that simply by reducing or eliminating use of Facebook and Instagram no longer scrolling their feeds, they began to feel increased levels of satisfaction with their own physical bodies, and nothing else had changed. It's not like they had exercised more or worn more makeup or dress like nothing else had changed. So I share some of that. And there's like countless examples like this, I share that data simply to say, comparison is often the albatross, it is the thing that weighs us down, it's not even reality, as we are living and experiencing it, it is that we so often view life through the lens of other people's feeds. And it's killing us. I mean, it is literally killing us when you think about some of the data on suicidal ideation that a lot of young people have, because not totally because but in large part due to the sort of comparison monster that is whispering these lies to us, that will never make it. We don't measure up, we're not good enough. Look at all of these other people. When in reality on the other side of that digital screen, all these other people whose feeds look perfect. They're wrestling with the same exact thing. Yes. And at some point, we need to remove those filters that are dividing us and be real with one another. Yeah, for me that I'm not 25. You know, I'm in my early 40s. But even for me, it's a reality. You know, freeing ourselves, allowing God by His Spirit to free us from the comparison game is a critically important sort of step toward living with joy in Jesus.

Jon Steele  17:42  
Yes, it reminds me a little bit of this thing that I remember studying when I was in the world of psychology. And that was the idea of the invisible audience, especially in your adolescent years, you have this idea that like everybody is looking at you. Yeah, sort of nitpicking everything that you do, and that everybody notices me. And honestly, I still have this feeling as a homeowner in my backyard, that all of my neighbors are watching me when I'm out there critiquing my every move, or the things that I'm doing or not doing. And now you have these devices that put that on a global scale of wondering, like, who's looking at me, who's not looking at me who's fill in the blank is better than mine. As you said, at the same time, those people are dealing with the exact same thing. They're wondering the same thing. But now rather than it just being people in my neighborhood, I see at face value their experiences, but I have no insight into their reality, or what they're putting out as their reality. Yeah. Now, because of these phones, we have access to all of that insider information, whether it's real or not, at a global scale in a way that we just didn't. And so it just the opportunity for comparison has skyrocketed so dramatically. It's insane the number of people that you can compare yourself to now and the data real or not that you have to back up your thoughts about that.

Jay Kim  19:03  
Yeah, that's right, you know, human beings as embodied creatures, to your point, we were not made to live as embodied creatures who are pulled into the ether of a disembodied reality. In that tension. It breaks us. Yeah, I'm sitting here in my office, but I can open my phone and begin to scroll Instagram and just see all of my friends and the wonderful time they're having on their European vacation and my other friend who's sitting on the beach, in the Maldives, you know, having a drink or whatever. And I'm here, I'm physically here in my little office. What I'm not saying is like, you should never look at a photo of your friend on their vacation every now and then that's fine. It's fair. If you're healthy, and you're in a position where you just celebrate like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that Bobby's getting a little good. always been working so hard, whatever. But it's the constant scrolling. It's the constancy of the feed. Yes, that is really destroying us. Because you do that long enough. And you just begin to believe that that is what life should look and sound and feel like all the time. And then you live in the sort of Embodied Reality of your actual life. And it's not that Yeah. And to your point, I just think we're not meant to live that way. It's destructive. And the fuel for all of that is comparison. And we need to stop, we need a way out.

Jon Steele  20:34  
Yes, well, then let's talk about the way out. The way out that you would suggest is living into joy. So help us, Jay, understand what is joy, just so we're on the same page? But then also, what is it not so that we know like what to not bring into the fold here when we're thinking about pursuing joy?

Jay Kim  20:54  
Yeah, you know, joy, it's interesting, I think most of us, we use the word joy and happiness or pleasure, all sort of synonymously. You know, and that's what happens in a field, good culture. And that's what we live in. We live in a culture that is all about feeling good. But you know, biblically speaking, the joy is not that right? In the Hebrew Scriptures. In the Old Testament, there are a variety of Hebrew words that are translated into the English word joy, and in various biblical translations, but the most common one is the Hebrew word Simha. It shows up almost 100 times in the Old Testament, wow. And Simha is not primarily about feeling good. It's primarily about in the Bible, at least, it's almost always used to describe a person or group of people, they're sort of state of being specifically when they are with or in the presence of God. So why that's important is that at least biblically speaking, it seems to indicate the joy is actually not contingent upon circumstances or situations. But the joy Simha is actually contingent, upon nearness to God. So a couple of examples like Psalm 16, the writer says, In your presence, there is fullness of Simha joy, in your presence and God's presence, there is the fullness of joy. There's that famous psalm, Psalm 30, were the psalmist writes, you know, God, you turn my wailing into dancing, you removed my sackcloth, which was emblematic of sadness and suffering. You remove that, and you instead close me with Simha with joy. Which if you think about it, that's like a confrontation to the cultural rendering of joy. That joy is like happiness: good times, feeling good, pleasure. Well, no, no, like, this verse is about wailing. Yeah, it's about a sackcloth, which is emblematic again, of sadness. And the writer says, no, like, because I am near you, because I am with you. You can take my wailing, my sadness, my brokenness, and turn it into dancing, you actually replace the cloth of my sadness, and you clothed me with joy. So the reason that's important is, if we believe that joy is always circumstantial, and situational, that joy is something I have to manufacture by making sure I feel good, I'm having a good time, then it is impossible for joy to be pervasive and constant. It's impossible. So joy, in that understanding, life will always be a roller coaster of joy and sadness and brokenness. What's hard about that is, life is a roller coaster. So there's no way around it life, by its nature brings good times and bad times, and long, steady plateaus of just the mundane and the boring, right. And if joy is dictated by the roller coaster, there is no way to live a life of joy. A life of joy means that your entire life is couched in and foundationally built upon joy. So if joy is happiness and pleasure and feeling good, which is circumstantial and situational, then you can't possibly live a life of joy. You just live a life where you are pursuing moments of joy, you know, yes. But what the Scriptures seem to indicate is that no other life of joy is possible. You think about the writer of Hebrews when they when they say that Jesus, for the joy set before Him, endured the cross. That literally makes no sense. If joy is circumstantial and situational. There's no way that you can achieve pleasure or good feelings when you are about to go die on a cross, right? It's not possible. And yet, the scriptures seem to indicate it is possible, because he did that for the joy set before him. So you know what is joy? I've talked a lot right now about what joy isn't. I love Dallas Willards thought he says in a book called The allure of gentleness, Dallas, Willard says, joy is not a passing sensation of pleasure, like we just talked about. But joy is a pervasive sense of well being, that's infused with hope, because of the goodness of God. And that's the key phrase. Joy, biblical joy, and a life of joy, comes about when we sense in our nearness to God, that He is good. And that that will never change, that his goodness, and his loving grace toward us, is unceasing, and it is constant. And it is consistent in the midst of life's ups and downs. So for me that definition and that sort of understanding joy, in that sense, has been tremendously helpful.

Jon Steele  26:04  
Yes, that recognition that that Jesus is our constant, that God our Creator is constant, and therefore as life has its ups and downs, that we have that homeostasis through all of it, that is God, that when my life takes a total downturn, and I crash, and burn and fill in the blank thing, I remember that this is not what defines my life. I remember that this too shall pass, just like the next great thing that I experienced that too shall pass, yes. But that through all of it, God is stable, his promises to be faithful, and to redeem us and to draw us to him and to bring all things under the authority of Jesus Christ, that that will happen. And that we're good because of that, like, obviously, we're still learning how to follow Jesus well, how to look more like him. And there's ebbs and flows with all of those things, but that he is constant and that our hope is secure in that reality, and not in my own health, my own the way that I look the way that I feel. And yes, that feels so totally different. 

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele
We are getting totally schooled in joy today, and it is so good. I love this line from Jay. biblically speaking, Joy is actually not contingent on circumstances or situations. But joy. Simha is actually contingent on nearness to God. And then Jay says this is what happens as we understand that nearness, biblical joy and a life of joy comes about when we sense in our nearness to God, that He is good. And that that will never change that His goodness and His loving grace toward us is unceasing and it is constant and it is consistent in the midst of life's ups and downs. This is the antidote alumni, as we feel tempted to compare our lives to the lives of others, as we feel tempted to compare our current situation to how we think it could or should be, as we feel tempted to believe that when things are going well, it means God is on my side, and that it means God is opposed to me when my life is a dumpster fire, we can be reminded that in the presence of God, there is fullness of joy, and we have access to that joy in The Good, the Bad and the boring, because we live daily in the presence of God. I hope that continues on with you today. And this week as you engage with this digital world. I'm excited to say that we still have more to come from Jay. Next week, Jay is going to give us some practical next steps for choosing joy instead of comparison. And then we'll spend some time discussing self control instead of reckless indulgence. What influences our seemingly insatiable desire to consume and what are some tools to counteract it? We'll talk more about that next week. Thanks for tuning in. And I will see you in the after, alumni.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai