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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Welcome to Sisters in Sobriety, and we are so glad you're here [00:01:00] today. We have a really special guest on our show today, Charles Labore, who is not only the host of The Way Out, a sobriety and recovery podcast, but also an amazing person who has inspired so many in the recovery community. He's been on his own sobriety journey and shared countless stories of hope and growth through his podcast.
[00:01:20] Kathleen: Today we are going to talk about some of the most challenging aspects of sobriety, social pressures, emotional hurdles, and psychological struggles. From navigating social situations where alcohol is present, to dealing with some of the emotional ups and downs of early sobriety, and also addressing the psychological impact of long term recovery.
[00:01:42] Kathleen: We are going to cover it all.
[00:01:44] Sonia: We are, but first let's take a few minutes to get to know Charlie a little better and hear more about his amazing story. Hey Charlie, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
[00:01:55] Charlie: to be here. Thank you both for having me.
[00:01:57] Sonia: so can you tell us a little bit about your [00:02:00] background and what led you to start your podcast, The Way
[00:02:02] Charlie: I can, yeah. So it's interesting.
[00:02:05] Sonia: yeah, yeah.
[00:02:12] Charlie: at recovery for me were marked by me doing a lot of power shares in 12 step meetings, waxing poetic. About recovery principles that I had no intention and was not actively working
[00:02:33] Kathleen: Uh huh.
[00:02:34] Charlie: And we all know that guy we all that guy if we've been in recovery from how was that guy like
[00:02:41] Sonia: It's a
[00:02:41] Sonia: likable guy.
[00:02:42] Kathleen: I might have been married to that guy, actually. I might have been married to him.
[00:02:47] Sonia: loved that AA version of my brother who would like wax poetic about like, God, those amends were fun. They lasted like, I don't know.
[00:02:56] Sonia: three years, but they were amazing. [00:03:00] I
[00:03:05] Charlie: initial stints for a variety of reasons. And coming into sobriety this last time, uh, almost 10 years ago, I really surrendered this time. I wasn't planning on it. Going to treatment this last time was not my idea. I'm getting sober this last time.
[00:03:26] Charlie: didn't start out as my idea. I was just trying not to get divorced for the third time. Okay, that's it. I just was trying not to get divorced and something happened in that treatment counselor's office that I still have a hard time really reckoning with but I surrendered and I don't know why but I completely And totally surrendered in that treatment counselor's office.
[00:03:57] Charlie: I got completely honest about [00:04:00] the full scale and scope of my addiction and alcoholism with another human being for the first time in my entire life. I was just done. I just didn't ever want to feel like I had been feeling right before coming in. Right. And. Um, she asked what I wanted to get out of this thing, and I said, I just want to know why I am the way I am.
[00:04:27] Charlie: And she laughed at me. And she said, okay, let's say we figure it out. Let's say it's because your mom died when you were 11 years old. Or, let's say it's because you had big addict and alcoholic buttons from birth, or a combination. Do you think if you Find out why you are the way you are. You'll ever be able to drink normally again.
[00:04:49] Charlie: No. Do you ever think you'll be able to use safely again? No. Cool. So we figure out how we get better instead of why you are the way you are. [00:05:00] And that was that first light bulb moment for me. And I just started to really surrender into whatever suggestions seem to make sense coming from the people that had what I wanted.
[00:05:12] Charlie: There was people that were in. treatment and then in the rooms of recovery that had what I wanted. They had serenity. They had peace. They had joy. They had lost the desire on a daily basis to consume their drug or drugs of a choice. I wanted that. So I did what they did and the podcast sprouted out of that.
[00:05:36] Charlie: I wanted to share these stories for the first time. I was really listening. To the stories that people were sharing in these rooms and These stories need to get out of this church basement and Other people need to hear these stories because if they're changing me They can change other people [00:06:00] and So it was a combination of wanting to elevate these stories and make them more accessible for people That Don't find themselves in a recovery meeting for any number of reasons.
[00:06:13] Charlie: And also an amend of sorts. Let me elevate other people's stories. Let me try to shut my yapper enough so that somebody else can share their story and it can help people.
[00:06:27] Kathleen: How has hosting your podcast, Charlie, impacted your own recovery
[00:06:32] Charlie: It's been one of the greatest journeys and one of the greatest gifts. in my recovery and in my life, really, the um, the people that I've met as a result of this podcast and what I've learned as a result of this podcast, it never ceases to amaze me. Never. I always think to myself, I think I might be benefiting more than anybody else from this podcast, from the Way [00:07:00] Out podcast, just because I have, an opportunity to interview such fascinating people in recovery and learn from them and I always learn something from somebody that comes on the podcast and I don't expect it.
[00:07:18] Charlie: Doing the podcast now for 8 years and so kind of get a little like what am I going to learn from this person sometimes and always I'm like. This was the best interview ever afterwards, right? Like coming in. I'm like, yeah, Looking forward to this. This will be good or whatever and then at this is so good You know, so I mean I just got off of a an interview and the guy does thought field therapy And he legit performed it on me in the interview and I did not know he was gonna do that my mind it blew my mind And how I felt before, you think about a specific experience that has a lot of negative [00:08:00] energy, you think about it, you go through this process and then you think about it.
[00:08:03] Charlie: It changed how I felt about that experience significantly. I was not expecting that. So that only happens as a result of doing a podcast like I do. So yeah, it's, it's amazing.
[00:08:14] Sonia: was so funny. I, right before we started, I was editing our podcast that we did with a IFS therapist, that internal family systems, the one who like helps you break
[00:08:24] Charlie: of that.
[00:08:25] Sonia: yeah, into parts. And so I was just editing it and she was like, you know, there's the protector and the firefighter. And I was like, this was a
[00:08:34] Sonia: good episode.
[00:08:35] Sonia: I need to talk to my therapist about
[00:08:38] Sonia: this. Like let's talk about the inner child. but it's true. I learned so much from, From doing the podcast. I learned so much from Kathleen too, every time we do it.
[00:08:49] Kathleen: Oh, that's amazing. Thank you. So Charlie, can you, can you share, we're going to switch gears a little bit, but can you share some of the most [00:09:00] common social challenges you faced when you began your sobriety journey?
[00:09:04] Charlie: for sure. I think for me, the biggest thing was professionally, right? Like, I leaned in to my recovery identity pretty early, and that was an active choice for me. I recovered out loud, and that was very liberating for me, to recover out loud. And begin to integrate recovery as a part of my identity.
[00:09:28] Charlie: And it brought accountability that told everybody that I was in recovery. I didn't scream my program at the top of my lungs and I still don't, but I recovered out loud, but professionally it was different because it was a much different vibe from a professional perspective to let somebody know that you're in recovery because it only comes up really.
[00:09:53] Charlie: In a situation where there's drinking a professional event where there's drinking, uh, a [00:10:00] Something of that nature an after hours work event, right where there's drinking So I think that was the hardest piece. How do I tell people? In that context That I don't drink and how do I get through? Situations Like that not drinking Helped at the time that I had a boss that was in recovery.
[00:10:23] Charlie: So that helped quite a bit. It was really fortunate for that reason, but we weren't always together. In fact, often we weren't when, when it came to these things, we'd be dividing and conquering around things like that, honestly. And it sounds silly maybe to some people, but I would always have a drink in hand.
[00:10:41] Charlie: I would always have a club soda. In my hand constantly because then nobody would ask if I wanted a drink
[00:10:50] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:10:51] Charlie: And that's the one piece where you know, that's where it's going to come out. Hey, you want a drink? Can I get you a drink? If I already have a drink in my hand [00:11:00] actively, you're not going to ask me And so that became really early in Professional functions.
[00:11:07] Charlie: I always have a club soda in my hand So nobody's gonna ask me if i'm drinking or not. And if it comes up, then you know, I just ended up spitting it out like I don't drink. I quit, and that's a pretty, that's a pretty, short conversation. So I think then social situations that was probably the worst.
[00:11:24] Charlie: And most people that I knew that were close to me when I got into recovery for this third time weren't like, what? You know, I mean, they got it. They were like, Yeah, that makes sense. So from a personal perspective, it was a little easier and I really associated only with people in the beginning that were in recovery.
[00:11:45] Charlie: I made a pretty clean break from that perspective, right? I like dove right into the recovery community. So everybody around me was doing what I was doing, right? So from a [00:12:00] personal social perspective, folks in recovery became my social circle for sure.
[00:12:06] Sonia: I really like the idea of talking about that recovering out loud. I didn't for the first five years. And so it was tough,to just Order a mocktail, but not really explain why and my spouse was not comfortable with me saying that I was sober, so, and was not comfortable with me going to AA meetings, so I couldn't really,lean into, the
[00:12:29] Sonia: social aspects of recovery, so do you have any advice for people like me the first five years when I couldn't really recover out loud for fear it would damage my relationship and damage like some of my, social interactions and friendships.
[00:12:47] Charlie: Have a number of people that are in recovery or at least what I would call recovery friendly recovery supportive allies that you can reach out to no matter what in [00:13:00] any situation that you know they got your back and that you can connect with, right? Having people that A recovery friend circle so that you can tap into at any time, whether it's a text, a call, whatever it is, when you're feeling your feelings and they could just be there with you while you're feeling your feelings.
[00:13:23] Charlie: Because we always say when we get sober, good news and bad news, the good news is you're going to feel again. The bad news is you're going to feel again. Having somebody that you can work through your feelings with that is either in recovery or is an ally can be a tremendous help when you're in a situation where it's not as supportive around you in other contexts.
[00:13:46] Sonia: Yeah, I do want to encourage people to recover out loud because I think that there's a lot less stigma now than there was even like five, 10 years
[00:13:58] Charlie: 100%.
[00:13:59] Sonia: So I [00:14:00] think, that the sober curious movement makes
[00:14:02] Charlie: I love that. I love that movement. I love that recovery has gotten sexy. And I think there's, I think there's still some signal, but I, but it's a lot less today. And it's because people made choices to recover out loud 10 years ago. It was not as common. And honestly, I just started doing it and I didn't even, I didn't even think about it.
[00:14:30] Charlie: I didn't even think about the stigma, like, until like maybe somebody mentioned it. I think maybe six months in, I'm like, you're right. There is stigma.
[00:14:39] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Charlie: And it was, like, too late. So And I'd already experienced the benefit of recovering out loud. So I was all in already. But I did have that sort of like, I didn't even think about that.
[00:14:57] Charlie: What am I doing? Ah, I'm good. I'm gonna [00:15:00] keep doing it.
[00:15:05] Sonia: but I'm not sure if you ended up getting the third divorce, but, I am trying to date sober for the first time in Ever in my entire life. And I was so nervous to tell people if I'm on a date, the first date I was like, oh, I don't drink.
[00:15:27] Sonia: And then the second one it was like, oh, I'm so sober. And then the third one, it was like, actually, and this is also what I do for a living. By the way, and so do you have any advice on how to explain sobriety to new acquaintances?
[00:15:43] Charlie: You know what's interesting? Yes. So I am divorced. So, so it's a great story. It's a great. No,
[00:15:52] Kathleen: mean to laugh, I'm sorry. I'm apologizing on her
[00:15:55] Sonia: my story's amazing too. My story is, it's so [00:16:00] shocking, it's funny.
[00:16:01] Charlie: Yes.
[00:16:02] Sonia: so bad, it's good.
[00:16:04] Charlie: we look gallows. Humor is a real thing here in recovery, right? So, uh, I got home after treatment. I think I was like three days in. And I had recognized, like, all the things that I did in our marriage at that point that I didn't tell her about that were wrong and I was feeling really bad about it.
[00:16:27] Charlie: And so I told her all of them. Just all of them in a big list. Like, I drove drunk with your kids in the car. I did all these things, right? Yeah, we're not married anymore because I think that was the straw that broke the old camel's back at that point. And so, the steps are in order for a reason. I'm a 12 step guy, you know, that's like step nine and I hadn't really proper done step one yet.
[00:16:50] Charlie: And so, um, I'm eternally grateful for her. She was the person that I needed in my life [00:17:00] at that time. And She was a part of my journey in a way that was really instrumental from a recovery perspective. And she also stayed married to me for six months or so and let me be on her Cadillac insurance so I could go to treatment and get well.
[00:17:23] Charlie: And so she loved me enough even though she didn't like me very much at that time. To keep me on her insurance so I could get well and launch my recovery. And I'll be eternally grateful to her for that. And yeah, dating and recovery is, I'm all out about that too. So I think for me, it's like, I'm sober, you know, cause you're going to know that right away.
[00:17:49] Charlie: So I'm really upfront about that. And so the people that I end up meeting, dating. They know that right off the bat. Like, it's [00:18:00] very clear. Because, it's a core part of who I am and what I continue to need to be in order to live substance free. And so, it's never gonna really be a backseat thing for me. It's gonna always be a pretty important, not pretty, it's always gonna be a major part of who I am.
[00:18:22] Sonia: Yeah, I get that. I, Kathleen, do you remember the guy? Okay, this is a good one. Do you remember the guy that I dated that acted like he didn't drink? he's like, oh, I only have one drink max.
[00:18:31] Sonia: then we went away for the weekend and he drank martinis. That's more than one drink.
[00:18:35] Sonia: And if you have multiple martinis, but anyway, so that also, I actually agree with Charlie, the more upfront you are, I think the more likely you're going to get a, honest response from the other person, but not always.
[00:18:49] Kathleen: Not always.
[00:18:51] Sonia: Sometimes I think I'm so awesome that people lie and say
[00:18:55] Charlie: Yes, like I could like or maybe they're like, I could do that. Yeah, I could be
[00:18:59] Sonia: [00:19:00] Yes. I think that's what Kathleen said that she's like, that's who
[00:19:03] Sonia: he maybe wants to be.
[00:19:04] Kathleen: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[00:19:08] Sonia: Sorry about that.
[00:19:09] Charlie: No, don't ever
[00:19:10] Kathleen: No, no. The digression is good. And so, so Charlie, you, you mentioned that you really surrounded yourself like within the sober community with others who were in recovery when you got sober. Um, what, what advice would you give to someone who's maybe struggling to maintain friendships, like past friendships because of their sobriety?
[00:19:35] Charlie: I always think about my cohost, Jason, who had a much harder time with that piece because I became pretty isolated. By the end, so I didn't have a lot of close relationships at the end with people that were drinking because again, I got pretty darn [00:20:00] isolated. Jason had a harder time with that and he would always say that that's a lot of what would end up triggering relapse for him.
[00:20:08] Charlie: He would try to get sober and then he would feel bad for Ditching out on his quote unquote really good friends and then he'd start hanging out with these friends like hey You don't hang out with me anymore. What what are you not like me anymore that kind of stuff, right? And he'd end up hanging out with them again, and then they'd end up using again, of course, right?
[00:20:28] Charlie: Because it's just what happens, you know, we I love the mirror neurons bit, right? We have mirror neurons there's a biological reason why we and they tend to do what the other people around us do.
[00:20:45] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.
[00:20:46] Charlie: And he just decided, look, I gotta love you from afar. I gotta love you from a distance. And that's possible. To love you from a distance.
[00:20:56] Charlie: And I learned that from him. And I've used that in my recovery [00:21:00] since. If a relationship isn't healthy for me, for whatever reason, you relapse, that happens to, man, does that happen, right? we get close and Uh, a friend relapses, I gotta love you from afar right now. Like, I can't be in the middle of that. It's not healthy for me.
[00:21:18] Charlie: But know that I love you. Know that I'm here for you. And also know that I can't hang out with you. Because I can't risk my own sobriety as a result of it. So, you know, it's prioritizing the sobriety and again also knowing that I can love you from afar.
[00:21:34] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:21:35] Sonia: so, Charlie, it's summer and I have some triggers around summer. I have triggers around a lot of stuff. I have triggers around holidays. I have triggers, I have triggers walking down the street. and there's like outdoor there. I live, Kathleen, did you know, like, did you know there's two breweries across the street from my apartment?
[00:21:56] Kathleen: I did.
[00:21:57] Charlie: that
[00:21:59] Kathleen: [00:22:00] But not like, I just, you're not, you're not going to go in and drink beer. Like I knew that.
[00:22:05] Sonia: just saying, like, I'm walking the dog and I'm watching people
[00:22:08] Sonia: drink beer flight. that's all I'm saying.
[00:22:39] Sonia: So Charlie, what strategies can help someone stay committed to sobriety during those triggering times? So July 4th, and you have all these memories of July 4th of past.
[00:22:53] Sonia: And what can help people during those? big
[00:22:55] Charlie: I'm big advocate of sober events, right? [00:23:00] And recovery events. And there's a ton of them around all holidays because we know better than anybody what a trigger. Holidays and special events can be for us. So I would really encourage folks to reach out to your recovery community. I identify as there's some sober recovery events that you can participate in, and you know, for me that rewrites it, right?
[00:23:30] Charlie: I get to rewrite 4th of July, and I've been able to do that in recovery. I no longer think about it as a drinking event. Uh, because I've been able to rewrite it with positive, positive, sober activities. If you're a meeting person and you go to whatever recovery meetings, 12 step or otherwise, get to a meeting.
[00:23:52] Charlie: There's always meetings. Like we're the only people that meet on Christmas Day, right? Like because we need it. Right, [00:24:00] so, uh, those are my two big keys. Find a recovery event around that day. Or, if you're a meeting person, again, 12 step or otherwise, find a meeting. Yes.
[00:24:14] Sonia: Yeah, and you can jump on one online and to be honest, I'm not a 12 step person, but I will occasionally
[00:24:23] Sonia: Go to a 12 step meeting, when I'm going through a tough time and I just want that sort of that structure, which I don't typically, but there are moments where, so I wouldn't even be, nervous if you're not a 12 step person and it's Christmas Day and you're having a hard time,
[00:24:38] Sonia: like jump on a meeting online.
[00:24:39] Sonia: It's not, it's
[00:24:40] Sonia: not
[00:24:41] Charlie: not in the great thing about 12 step programs is the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop. That's it.
[00:24:49] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Charlie: It's the only requirement. So, how great is that? You don't have to go every day. You don't have to. You can pop in and pop out when you need it. And as [00:25:00] long as you have a desire to stop, you are more than welcome to come in.
[00:25:02] Charlie: And guess what? In open meetings, that's not even a requirement.
[00:25:07] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It's true.
[00:25:09] Sonia: and also I think people, are nervous about this like God higher power thing. that's not what all the meetings aren't just about that, right? you just go and you're sharing and you're listening to other people, which to me is the best part is
[00:25:22] Sonia: listening
[00:25:24] Charlie: I think the biggest benefit for years for me in the beginning was that mutual aid. That peer support. You know. Spirituality. A lot of the principles that I work today resulted as, as a part of that and has really made a impact on me in ways I could not have predicted in any way, shape, or form, but that basic level of peer support and mutual aid is a critical component of.
[00:25:57] Charlie: 12 step and other recovery meetings. There's, you [00:26:00] know, there's recovery Dharma, there's smart recovery. There's, there's a lot out there.
[00:26:06] Kathleen: Yeah. Does counseling or therapy play a role in your, in you maintaining your sobriety, Charlie?
[00:26:13] Charlie: absolutely. It was instrumental in my early recovery. I always say it took working the 12 steps in order with a sponsor along with EMDR therapy and that unlocked.
[00:26:28] Sonia: I'm doing EMDR.
[00:26:30] Charlie: It unlocked my recovery, Sonia, Kathleen. I'm telling you telling you it unlocked my recovery. It was transformational.
[00:26:38] Sonia: That is very interesting because I'm doing EMDR and it's quite a process.
[00:26:42] Charlie: It is and you know the stop field therapy builds on that and it's less of a process. It's interesting to me that the the practitioner really did it on me impromptu in the interview. So that's fascinating because it really [00:27:00] centers the same principle, EMDR therapy and thought field therapy, which is allowing my body and my mind to understand that I'm here, not there.
[00:27:13] Charlie: When I am thinking about the traumatic experience. And prior to EMDR, every time I thought about my mom dying, I was instantly transported back. To that moment, when I was on the couch, and my dad was breaking the news, and I felt like I was ten again. And I felt stuck in it. And I never knew when the memory would come up.
[00:27:39] Charlie: I never knew when it was gonna paralyze me. And I never knew what those emotions would trigger me to do. Mostly yous. But also other things that were not healthy. Um, and EMDR allowed [00:28:00] me to go through that experience again, and my body and my mind knew that I was here in this moment. And so now when I think about that, it's still a very powerful memory, but I know I'm here and my body knows I'm here.
[00:28:19] Charlie: And That's the difference.
[00:28:22] Sonia: when we talk about memories, I know all of us have these shame and guilt ridden memories related to past behaviors when we were using. How do you think people can deal with that, especially in early sobriety? we were talking right before we started recording about, having to tell somebody that you care about, look, I did all these things to damage our relationship.
[00:28:47] Sonia: And how do you do that without it dragging you back down into that
[00:28:52] Sonia: place?
[00:28:53] Charlie: question. For me, the 12 steps were instrumental in that process because working step [00:29:00] four and five allowed me to do an inventory of myself and some self examination, which allowed me to understand Patterns of behavior that were driving my actions, right? And we're perpetuating these cycles.
[00:29:19] Charlie: And I also understood that these were natural instincts that had gone awry. And that I was doing the best that I could with what I had at the time, which was not very much okay.
[00:29:32] Sonia: Charlie,
[00:29:41] Charlie: And just like in therapy, when I went through that experience and I got to be there for myself in a time that I wasn't able to originally, I think about that in the same context in terms of the way that I behaved prior to getting into recovery.
[00:29:58] Charlie: I did the best that I could with what I had at [00:30:00] the time. And I feel bad for that guy. That guy didn't have any tools. That guy was Lost. The guy was in a lot of pain. And he was hurting himself and he hurt other people too.
[00:30:15] Kathleen: Mm
[00:30:16] Charlie: And that self forgiveness and that understanding that I really wasn't trying to hurt people I was hurting.
[00:30:25] Charlie: And then going through the ninth step. And just owning my peace. I didn't, when I did my amends, I didn't get really like nitty gritty. Like, I'm sorry for this and this and this and this. They know they already know. Right. And so it was more about a process of, I'm sorry. I hurt you. I'm healing now. I'm getting better now.
[00:30:56] Charlie: And I want you to know that. I own what [00:31:00] I did. And if there's anything that I can do to make it right, let me know. Open book, like whatever. If there's anything I can do to make it right, you let me know. But just know that I understand that I hurt you and that I am changing today. And that was the message that I brought to the people that I made amends to and They were received, uh, they were hard amends.
[00:31:27] Charlie: Some of them were really hard. Uh, invariably, those amends transformed those relationships. So, it doesn't mean that we still have a relationship today. Like, with my last ex wife, I made the amend, you know? My sponsor's great, because it was like, you listed them in terms of the, it's, everybody's on your four step, you list all the people that are on your four step, and those are the people that you gotta make amends to.
[00:31:53] Charlie: Okay. And then you list, like, here's the people I'm totally cool with making amends to right now, no problem. [00:32:00] Here's the people like, eh, I'm not sure. And then here's the people I want no part of making amends, want no part of it. And she was on the, I want no part of it, right? He's like, you're doing that one first.
[00:32:14] Charlie: But he knew what he was doing, and I went and I made that amend, and I owned it, and I, it's she. So I really appreciate that. And, you know, I don't think there's anything I need to apologize for. And we kind of got, and I was like, What? Nothing? You can't think of anything?
[00:32:31] Charlie: Really? Because you banished me to the boiler room for two weeks and then, kicked me out with, like, Four days to find a place with my two kids and threw all my crap out on to the lawn and it all got ruined nothing Nothing. Okay, and I called my sponsor like you and she and he's like you did What you were supposed to do and you can walk away knowing that you did your [00:33:00] part, right?
[00:33:00] Charlie: I was like this isn't helping but I understand and he's like also you probably need to pray for her And I had to do that going in. I had to pray, pray, pray, pray, pray to get ready because I resented. I had a big resentment and I had to pray for that resentment. I was praying and praying and praying to a God that I really didn't understand at that time, but I was praying and it worked like I got ready.
[00:33:24] Charlie: I don't know how I got ready, but I understand today that spiritual actions have a physical result. There is a physics. to my spiritual actions. I don't have to believe in them. I don't have to like doing it even, but spiritual actions have a physical result. There's physics involved in that. And that's been my experience.
[00:33:51] Charlie: And then I'm praying afterwards to relieve myself of the resentment. And I get an email, I think three [00:34:00] weeks later, and she's like, you know, I was thinking about it when you made the amends and you said you had to pray to get ready. So you had a resentment and she went into this long, like, I'm sorry for this and I'm sorry for this.
[00:34:13] Kathleen: Oh, wow!
[00:34:15] Charlie: That was, of course, right when I had let it all go, and I didn't really care anymore. It
[00:34:19] Kathleen: Yes! Ha
[00:34:21] Charlie: this email from her saying, so, you know, the spiritual actions for me have a physical reaction. That's
[00:34:37] Sonia: this is sometimes what I've thought about amends is that you take a hundred percent responsibility. for everything that happened in that relationship. So I remember when my brother was doing amends, and I remember when he was doing it to my parents, and I was like, Don't do it! Don't let them off the hook! And I remember just being like, Dude, no! They're gonna think they were good [00:35:00] parents! And it was all you and then as by default me and so I remember being so like, come on, man, not them,
[00:35:12] Sonia: and Kathleen, by the way, my amends, I'm really sorry I showed up hungover at your baby shower 10 years ago, but
[00:35:17] Sonia: I
[00:35:21] Charlie: good.
[00:35:23] Sonia: take 100 percent responsibility.
[00:35:25] Kathleen: You've never done an immense to me, Sonia.
[00:35:29] Sonia: Really sorry about that. I
[00:35:31] Kathleen: Wait, what about you didn't come to my wedding either.
[00:35:33] Sonia: That wasn't cause I was drunk!
[00:35:35] Kathleen: Oh.
[00:35:36] Sonia: Part, I mean, yes. Okay, so back to the So, is, is amends, that's so interesting that you said the prayer part and the resentment part. So, those, those pieces are still there. So, is it taking 100 percent responsibility for everything that's happened in a relationship and letting somebody,
[00:35:54] Charlie: Absolutely not.
[00:35:55] Sonia: is this just the wrong way of
[00:35:56] Charlie: for me, absolutely not. No. It's [00:36:00] about owning my side of the street and my behavior. It's taking accountability for my behavior. I'm not worried about what you did. I let that go. It doesn't make it right. Doesn't mean I I doesn't mean that what you did was acceptable. It doesn't mean any of that.
[00:36:17] Charlie: I don't even talk about that in the amend. That's you. That's on you. Your behavior is on you. Right? I'm owning my side of the street. I'm not owning the fa I'm fully aware, and still, Uh, that's the resentment piece. Like, if you hurt me, And that, that's real, Then I need to do some work around that. If it's still, if it's still taking up energy, that's me.
[00:36:44] Charlie: That's some, that's work I have to do to get through how you hurt me, right? Because if it's taking up emotional and spiritual energy, that's my problem. [00:37:00] I don't have to like it, but it is my problem. I don't even want it to be my problem, but it is my problem. And nobody can fix that. Only I can. Right? And so, praying for that person and understanding that they're sick too.
[00:37:18] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:37:19] Charlie: They're sick too. They're imperfect too. They're flawed too. And I have to entertain the possibility that they also were doing the best that they could. With what they had at the time, and that they were hurting, and they hurt me. And that's what allows me to forgive.
[00:37:42] Kathleen: So, Charlie, you talked about, Good. Isolation, uh, a little bit in terms of your friendships. You said you were quite isolated by the time you got sober. what would you say to people if they're experiencing [00:38:00] loneliness or isolation during the recovery process? How does someone
[00:38:03] Charlie: so hard, and I feel for you if you're in that place of isolation and loneliness, because I've been there, and I feel for you, and I know what that feels like, and it's not a good feeling. And yet It's comfortable in a weird way, right? Because we get used to it and we get accustomed to this isolation.
[00:38:27] Charlie: I would recommend finding a group of people, whether it's a recovery meeting, whether it's an online space. Find a community of people that are like minded, that you relate with, that are on the same path as you, that understand what it's like. To feel like we feel. Isolation is a very common experience for those of us who find ourselves in [00:39:00] recovery.
[00:39:00] Charlie: And it doesn't magically stop the minute we decide to put down the substances. And I would suggest that you do uncomfortable things that are hard. that feel really foreign, and pick up that phone,
[00:39:17] Sonia: yeah.
[00:39:17] Charlie: and text people, and just say, how you doing? Just checking in. I do that every day, not because I want to a lot of the time, because I need to.
[00:39:30] Charlie: Because I need to practice that, and I need to get, get Increasingly better at that. And I look at a lot of what I'm doing in recovery is practices. I'm not good at it. That's why I have to practice it. And I continue to practice my spirituality. I continue to practice reaching out to people, even though still my instinct is to isolate.
[00:39:55] Charlie: Almost 10 years sober and my instinct is still to [00:40:00] isolate. So I've been doing that a lot longer still. So, these actions that I talk about that have a physical response, that have a physics to them. That's one of them. When I reach out to you, I'm building that connection. And as a lot of us know, Through the work of amazing people like Dr.
[00:40:25] Charlie: Gabor Mate, Connection is vital for us in recovery.
[00:40:32] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:40:33] Charlie: Vital. And I have to do it intentionally. Even though sometimes it feels really mechanical, you know, but it but it doesn't matter that it feels that way.
[00:40:43] Kathleen: Yeah. So you're saying sometimes it might not feel like it's your natural instinct to do it, but you push yourself to do it because you know how important it is for recovery. And It's not just recovery, like honestly, as humans, we need to connect for mental well [00:41:00] being, um, and so you'll just, you'll do it even though it might not be your natural
[00:41:05] Charlie: that's right.
[00:41:06] Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:18] Charlie: feel good in the moment. Right. Um, but I can slide into good habits too. so making a habit out of reaching out to people, making a habit out of doing spiritual prayer meditation, a habit out of physical activity daily, those are good habits.
[00:41:35] Charlie: And so. Cultivating those good habits. Yields returns and I'll go and to a recovery meeting and somebody, but thanks for reaching out to me X, Y, Z day that really made my day that really mattered or they'll reach out to me spontaneously. Cause I've been, you know, so, so that snowball effect, that I really believe that those kinds of things make a [00:42:00] huge difference in our lives.
[00:42:01] Sonia: Yeah, I think Kathleen sees me do it pretty mechanically sometimes when I'm having a really bad week. I'm going to a salsa class. And I'll say it just like that. I'm going to a salsa I don't want to go. but I'm gonna
[00:42:15] Charlie: Correct.
[00:42:16] Sonia: yeah,
[00:42:17] Kathleen: really good at that, Sonia. You're really, really good. No, she's good because like, Sonia also does not cancel on things, really. it's not always like a social thing, but you, you don't cancel on things.
[00:42:28] Sonia: No, yeah, I can be pretty low and, and
[00:42:30] Kathleen: Still do it.
[00:42:32] Sonia: do it, but I think what I hope for people is that it. took me so many years to figure it out and I would rather people just figure it out at the beginning that those yeah. the habits, the routine, the getting out and not isolating is so big.
[00:42:48] Sonia: I think for some reason I almost thought the isolating was like. Not like healthy, but
[00:42:53] Charlie: I know.
[00:42:54] Sonia: needed, right? So now i've turned the isolating into like journaling, right? So it's like let's [00:43:00] accomplish something When we're isolating, like let's be honest.
[00:43:03] Sonia: Yes. I watch a lot of netflix, but but I just it's the one thing I I preach so much to people because I struggled so much And if I had just known that It would have been A lot
[00:43:15] Charlie: 100%. It's a process and it's an evolution and there's going to be times where we know we should not be isolating and we do it anyway.
[00:43:24] Sonia: Yeah, it's so funny just talking today. I was like, you know what I don't have anything really social like today And i'm you know what? I think i'm actually gonna go to a meeting tonight Yeah, I think i'm just gonna go and I haven't ever been to a meeting in toronto and i'm in toronto right now, and I think i'm gonna
[00:43:41] Sonia: go to a meeting
[00:43:41] Charlie: gotta be amazing meetings in Toronto. Yes. Ha
[00:43:46] Sonia: i'm gonna
[00:43:46] Kathleen: If you need any recommendations, um, I've, I've been around the block in some of those
[00:43:51] Sonia: really? Okay. Is there one at the, is there one at that place you got married at that church where you guys had your photos taken?
[00:43:58] Kathleen: No. Oh, [00:44:00] yes. At that
[00:44:00] Sonia: Yeah. Okay. I'll go to that one. I'll go to that. Speaking of, that's a really big part of my self care and in my recovery is like just getting out and doing things.
[00:44:11] Sonia: So what other types, I know you mentioned like briefly,
[00:44:14] Sonia: like moving your body every are there any other things you can, or what if what, today, right? Like I've convinced myself that my leg hurts and I don't want to go to the gym. And so what are you going to say to me
[00:44:27] Charlie: I'm a big person that Find something that you like to do that's also physically active. It doesn't have to If you're a gym rat, great. And that's, your jam. Great. I ideal state, we find something that we actually really like to do. And that is also, I don't care if it's pickleball.
[00:44:50] Charlie: I don't care if it's basketball. I don't care if it's hiking or walking for me. I love to walk, love to walk. And so I walk my [00:45:00] dog Louie every day and I just love to do it. It's my jam, right? And so, I'm gonna do it pretty much hook or crook. Unless my leg hurts, then maybe not. Actually, I'll still probably do it even though my leg hurts.
[00:45:13] Charlie: Sonja and Kathleen, I'll probably still do it.
[00:45:16] Sonia: my leg doesn't actually hurt. It's just like a slight,
[00:45:19] Sonia: like,
[00:45:20] Charlie: ha.
[00:45:20] Kathleen: what I would say to you, Sonia, is we passed by a new yoga studio that we had not done the other day or seen. And I wonder if they have a restorative class because maybe you need to listen to your body, but still move your body.
[00:45:33] Sonia: know what? Right before we got on here, that is what I thought. I was like, you know what? I, I don't feel like doing weights. That's what it
[00:45:39] Kathleen: so there you go.
[00:45:40] Sonia: okay, but I can still do 30 minutes of Pilates. I just don't. And I can take Ellie, my dog, for a walk
[00:45:46] Kathleen: There you go. Then you're moving your body. It doesn't have to be like the gym check.
[00:45:50] Charlie: Right? Ha ha
[00:45:51] Kathleen: so that's when I worked out. it's,
[00:45:54] Sonia: Does anyone else feel like this podcast has been therapy
[00:45:56] Sonia: for me today? Like,
[00:45:58] Charlie: I didn't want to say anything. [00:46:00] Ha
[00:46:01] Sonia: yeah,
[00:46:02] Charlie: ha.
[00:46:03] Kathleen: First zone, it's, yeah. Um,
[00:46:07] Charlie: Every time I'm on a podcast, every time I do a podcast, it's therapy.
[00:46:11] Sonia: God, we've covered dating. We covered like my parents, like, I don't feel like working out today.
[00:46:19] Kathleen: I wanted to ask you, What, how can someone, how can you help someone or how, how can someone help someone? uh, identify and manage the triggers that might lead them to a relapse. So you, you said you had attempted your own sobriety, right? A few times, the last one has stuck for 10 years.
[00:46:37] Charlie: Almost 10 years. Uh, no, they say something in the, in one of the 12 step programs that roughly translates into, you can't celebrate it early. Like you gotta, yeah, right.
[00:46:50] Kathleen: no, no, no, it's not guaranteed, right? Like it's not, this is the thing, and we've talked about it on, on previous podcasts, like sobriety, whether you're [00:47:00] 10 years, 20 years, like it's not guaranteed. Sonia's brother, my ex husband, was sober, well physically sober, not emotionally sober, but sober for 10 years, maybe a bit over, and he relapsed.
[00:47:11] Charlie: you go. That's it. The longer I'm sober, the more I realize that for me, it's a one day at a time thing.
[00:47:19] Kathleen: yeah,
[00:47:19] Sonia: he had a major trigger, right? And I then a
[00:47:22] Sonia: couple of years later had the same trigger and almost relapsed as well. So I, yeah.
[00:47:28] Charlie: You know, it's a great question because I still get them and people still get them. And if I'm able to reach out to somebody and tell somebody about it, man, does that make a world of difference? Sitting in my trigger by myself. Not a really great plan for me. But if I can reach out to somebody and just say it out loud, I'm triggered right now.
[00:47:57] Charlie: Here's why. It [00:48:00] really takes a lot of the power away from it. And I'm connecting again. Right? And that active connection is very much Like an antidote for me. It's like antidote serum right in to the trigger when I'm actively connecting. I can be honest about what I'm going through. That's not easy. The hardest thing for me in recovery is to be really honest about what I'm going through and how I'm feeling.
[00:48:33] Charlie: If it's a rough moment or a rough patch, that's the hardest thing. There's vulnerability in that and there's a lot in that. That's hard for me. But, I do it because I want my sobriety more than I am scared to be vulnerable and honest, right? So, yeah.
[00:48:53] Kathleen: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I like that. you want your sobriety more than your fear [00:49:00] of being vulnerable and honest. That's a great, that's a really great way to put it.
[00:49:06] Sonia: Yeah, Charlie, can you share a time where you really felt challenged in your sobriety and how you overcame it?
[00:49:15] Charlie: Absolutely, yeah. There's a number of times where it was really challenging, but, uh, I would say that most recently, uh, a long term girlfriend, uh, Of mine and I, we were together for five years and we broke up. And it was hard, really hard. And yet I walked away from that relationship feeling like I had demonstrated real growth because I didn't leave claw marks on that relationship.
[00:49:56] Kathleen: Hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:49:59] Charlie: [00:50:00] And I know that although we weren't meant to be together for the rest of our lives, I didn't have to hurt her in the process. And I could come to terms with the fact that the relationship was ending and not hurt her in that process. And I allowed myself to experience that loss without reverting back to the really comfortable counterproductive thought and behavior patterns that I had demonstrated my life.
[00:50:45] Charlie: And I really leaned into my Home group in a way that I had never before. I got really vulnerable and I got really honest about what I was going through. Might have [00:51:00] cried. And they just loved me. And they just supported me. And what sprouted out of that period of loss and Grief and vulnerability was something really beautiful.
[00:51:18] Charlie: And the relationships that I had prior to that experience were good and coming out of that experience were amazing because I had the willingness to really lean in and I had a choice and it's only because of recovery. I knew I had that choice. I had a choice. Do I be vulnerable and do I lean into the people that I know are there?
[00:51:45] Charlie: Or do I revert back to those counterproductive thought and behavior patterns? Drinking, using, isolating. All of those things that I would use in order to anesthetize the icky feelings. [00:52:00] And so, that would be the experience that comes to mind. And it was hard, and I did think about using, for sure. And that makes sense.
[00:52:11] Charlie: That makes sense that I did because it was a lot of overwhelming and uncomfortable feelings.
[00:52:18] Kathleen: yeah. What advice, Charlie, would you give to someone who, who's considering sobriety but is afraid of how hard it will be, afraid of the changes it might bring? Just
[00:52:32] Charlie: It's a great question. Run the experiment, just run the experiment.
[00:52:40] Kathleen: Mm
[00:52:41] Charlie: the worst that could happen if you run this sobriety experiment? What's the absolute worst that could happen?
[00:52:52] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:52:53] Charlie: about that and then think about What could happen on the plus side Just run [00:53:00] the experiment run the experiment. I remember really early in recovery I listened to a lot of joe and charlie and for those who don't know who joe and charlie are I always say it took bill and bob to write the big book and joe and charlie to explain it And they kept saying that Run the experiment.
[00:53:19] Charlie: Just run the experiment. If at the end, you don't like the results, we'll happily refund your misery. Right? And it made sense to me. Like, what do I have to lose? Literally nothing! I have everything to gain and nothing to
[00:53:34] Kathleen: Mm
[00:53:35] Charlie: lose. Just run the experiment. Get Into whatever makes sense for you from a recovery perspective.
[00:53:45] Charlie: There's so much out there and that's so beautiful. I love elevating and celebrating all pathways to recovery. So find one that speaks to you. Try a couple out and then just run the experiment. Don't judge the [00:54:00] process. Don't judge what you're doing. Just identify if it's helping you judge the results.
[00:54:09] Sonia: I cannot echo that enough. It's a great way to put it. It's from the experiment. And it's gonna be hard.
[00:54:16] Charlie: Yes. Yes. If, if you're anything like me, it's going to be amazing in the beginning. The pink cloud effect. It's just going to be so great in the beginning. Like,
[00:54:25] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:54:26] Charlie: you know, mostly because I'm not drowning my body in massive amounts of ethyl alcohol or whatever substance is literally, literally poisoning my body.
[00:54:36] Charlie: So just. As a result of not doing that on a daily basis, I'm going to, I'm going to feel better from that perspective. But as we progress and that initial pink cloud wears off, it gets lifey, it gets real and continuing to trust the process, run the experiment and do those [00:55:00] actions that have a very, Physical, consequence reaching out to people daily, physical activity, those kinds of things will yield tremendous, uh, rewards for you on a daily basis.
[00:55:13] Kathleen: thank you so much, Charlie. It was, a pleasure to meet you, and, and hear from you, and I think your story and this episode is gonna be an inspiration for many. I know it was for me. So thank
[00:55:26] Charlie: Sonia Kathleen, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for allowing me to come on and recover out loud with you all. It's been a blast. [00:56:00]