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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Good morning, Tom.
Morning, Paul.
How you doing?
Doing well.
We have some sun today.
I know, it's beautiful.
In San Francisco.
Yes.
Oh!
It's funny you bring that up,
actually, because it's something I was
thinking about on my walk over here.
I was just thinking, checking
in with myself what had happened
over the past week that I would
want to bring up on the podcast.
And one tiny little detail that had
stood out to me this week was we've had
a string of really bad weather days here
in San Francisco for most of January.
Yeah.
And bad weather here just
means cloudy mostly and like
still 50 degrees or whatever.
Yeah.
And then there was one
really sunny day this week.
And everyone in our office was so happy
that day and it made me realize, I thought
of Marcus a little bit, because it feels
like a lesson in how we are at the mercy
of forces beyond our control and we are
less, Autonomous maybe that we think we're
more just like puny little beings Yeah
at the mercy of a much bigger universe
because Our moods are dictated much more
obviously by the weather and things that I
had appreciated maybe let clotho spin you.
Yeah That's yeah, exactly.
That's that's a quite poignant actually.
I wonder if Marcus, I feel like
that's not what Marcus believes.
Like he, he thinks that you should be
in control of your emotions despite
everything going, like it's the rock
in the ocean analogy that he uses.
But that's interesting.
Yeah I hear that for sure.
That he said he, yeah,
stoicism often like implies.
Emotions are always a thing that are
in your control, but I also think
like he would say too that you know We
respond to the beauty of nature or other
things because we were made to do that
and it's not wrong Just because it's
rainy be grumpy or because it's sunny
be happy that's a part of our nature.
Yeah But I think that's an
interesting tension That's a
tension in the book where I think it
might come down to interpretation.
Yeah.
Because it's, you're right, that, It
depends on how you interpret his statement
about be the rock in the ocean and
stuff, because I want to, let's give
him the generous interpretation that
he recognizes that emotions are just
Cause by externalities and that's just
part of it and I think that's right.
I think I prefer that
reading Yeah, for sure.
I think he being the Rock is
like Something you can do.
Yeah strategically, but it
doesn't mean no always be a rock.
Yeah, I feel like if you're a woman,
it's much more obvious that's the case.
Okay.
Sorry.
I'm going to get into gender things now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
But I think it's very, you have
a monthly cycle where it's like,
there are moods that happen at
different times in that month.
That's true.
Whereas like guys are, I think
we also probably have some kind
of cycle, but it's less obvious.
Yeah, for sure.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And I think.
There's a, I guess you're bringing
up some biological stuff, but I think
there's also cultural stuff that
is about our expectations of how we
perform our emotions and for better
or worse, I don't know if this is
Marcus winning exactly, but somehow
the culture we live in now I think has
adopted a certain amount of stoicism
and its expectations of men and how
they perform their emotions in general.
I think we do live in a culture where.
Men are expected to do that thing
where they are the rock and that has
advantages and it also has disadvantages
where I think it means bottling stuff
up and not really listening to it.
So I think.
Yeah.
So maybe if Marcus was a woman, the
philosophy would have been a bit
deeper or something like, cause I
guess we're probably on the same page
that it's better to acknowledge that.
That sometimes you're sad
and that's just how it is.
And that's okay.
Then it is to have to always be
stoic or have to always be stable.
Yeah.
I think it's maybe a little
more like situational than that.
I think this circles back to
conversations we've had earlier where
stoicism, I think has persisted.
In, in, human consciousness, in part
because in very specific situations,
it's a really useful philosophy
for warriors and other folks who,
for whom, You fell into a hole.
Yeah.
You can't get out.
People who just need to, Hole fallers.
Get into, who are in some kind of
situation where they just need to, Yeah.
Execute.
Persevere.
It's a really good philosophy
for those kinds of people.
But, yes, I think it, Yeah.
Is a mistake to think that
it's a good philosophy.
All the time or that it answers
everyone's questions forever.
Every situation.
Sure.
That's fair.
So speaking of mood swings
that happen biologically.
Okay.
Yeah.
Is.
Has a very open relationship
with her manager.
She tells her manager her
sort of stage of her cycle.
Yeah.
And she jokes, she, cause she half joked
that maybe she should put her on her
calendar and in fact, maybe she should
put it and invite all her teammates to
the events just so that they know, and
then the joke continued that maybe I
should put her schedule on my calendar.
But I think there's so jokes
aside, I think there might be some.
Value in that in the sense that it gives
someone else a little bit more empathy.
Yeah.
Like it helps me as a partner to know
which stage of her cycle she's in.
I'm not trying to throw her under
the bus for having like very big
mood swings but even knowing that a
small little reaction or whatever.
Oh, okay.
That she's, she is in that period.
Yeah, I wonder if that, do you
think in 50 years everyone's cycle
will be on their work calendar?
Oh I guess I'm taking it one step
further mentally and saying just
should we all just have some kind
of like mood indicator slack status?
Feeling meh today.
Here's my little emoji face that
describes what's going on with me.
And maybe you don't need to
explain why you feel that way.
Yeah.
Would that be good?
Would it be helpful for me to
know that my coworker feels
grouchy for unknown reason today?
Probably.
I'm a fan of this stuff.
Yeah.
In general, like bringing your
whole self to work or whatever.
Yeah.
But I have learned over time
that not everyone feels that way.
And a lot of people want there to
be a strong barrier between their
professional and personal lives.
Yeah, I think that's true.
And I try to push it as a founder and CEO.
I try to push it, but I
can only push it so far.
Yes.
I totally know what you mean.
Yeah.
Okay.
I guess to answer your question
based on that, I think 50 years
from now, we will still not have
everybody reporting publicly.
Some people will though.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
It's hard to imagine
that it'll be mandated.
That feels 1984.
Yes.
so It'll be optional, but acceptable.
Yeah.
That's a nice place to be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
All right Cool.
Okay, we're in book five.
We started book five and I have to
say, book four Took us a while to get
through and I was so relieved that we
had finally gotten to book five And then
in our first episode on book five, I
believe we were at four ball points Which
is a pace at which we will never ever.
This is a podcast that will
never Asymptotically approaches
the end of the meditations.
Yeah, it never actually reaches it.
That's right.
So I think alright, let's dive in
Let's do it book five and start.
I gotta say the first part of
book five was a banger Yes, we got
the whole getting out of bed Yes.
Saga.
Yep.
Which was great.
Yep.
I am gonna still order
those those, that signage.
What does it say?
But it's so comfy.
But it's nicer here.
Dot.
It's nicer here.
Yes.
Dot.
Dash Marcus Aurelius.
Yes.
That's right.
Okay.
I believe we're at entry number five here.
In book five.
Let's do it.
No one could ever accuse
you of being quick witted.
What?
I think he's talking to himself.
Oh.
Is he insulting me?
Okay, fine.
Yes.
It's, I think because this is a book
written to himself, I think he's
insulting He's saying to himself
Marcus, one of the things about
you is you're not quick with it.
whIch I, that's cancer.
Good for him.
Yeah, that's cancer.
Alright, but there are plenty
of other things you can't
claim you haven't got in you.
Practice the virtues you can show.
Honesty, gravity, endurance,
austerity, resignation, abstinence,
patience, sincerity, moderation,
seriousness, high mindedness.
Don't you see how much you have to
offer beyond excuses like can't?
And yet you still settle for less.
Wow.
Or is it some inborn condition that
makes you whiny and grasping and
obsequious, makes you complain about
your body and curry favor and show off
and leaves you so turbulent inside?
Wow.
No.
You could have broken
free a long way back.
And then you would have
been only a little slow.
Not so quick on the uptake.
And you need to work on
that as well, that slowness.
What?
Not something to be
ignored, let alone deprised.
Wow.
Okay, he's being really hard on himself.
He's being very mean to himself.
I wonder what is going on for Marcus.
Yeah.
Okay.
This is the perfect time to share a
fact that I learned by reading history.
Please.
So Marcus, this is somehow recorded, it's
2, 000 years ago, but we know about this.
He is in Rome, and it is one of the few
occasions traveling back to the capital.
And he goes to a a like a, I
don't know, musical, whatever.
And he's in the audience but
they're performing the same skit
that they would normally perform
on Tuesday nights or whatever.
Okay.
And the skit includes a, a pun on
Tritibus or something like that,
which is the name of, so they say
tibus in response to something.
And that sort of the joke is that's
essentially Tritibus, which is the
name of his wife's supposed lover.
Okay.
Like that she's cheating on Marcus with.
Got it.
Okay.
So this might not sit well with Marcus.
And he is known in history, at
least written down in history,
to have not reacted to that.
I see.
Wow.
And just, he just sits through it.
Okay.
He doesn't yeah, I don't think
he even punishes the actors.
I he just sits through it.
And apparently the Roman people
thought he was caw, for doing that.
I see.
Yeah.
Okay.
Interesting.
So here, so I think this is,
that's what I'm imagining he's
thinking about as he writes this.
He's I wish I had some funny quip.
Yeah, so you think that happened
to him and then he was like,
oh shit, what do I do now?
And he just froze and had no reaction.
He's trying to come back with,
he's trying to have a comeback.
Yeah.
And he couldn't think of anything, so he
just sits there and everyone looks at him.
And then the whole theater performance
goes on and he leaves and he still hasn't
thought of what he's going to do or say.
Two days later he thinks of a
comeback and he's ah, it's too late.
Interesting.
Yep.
That does, it's funny to hear,
he's doing one of another of his
famous list of virtues things
here, even longer one than useful.
But I have to say, all of these ones
They do sound like the Marcus I know.
Honestly, gravity.
I bet gravity is one of the things
he's capable of performing regularly.
Resignation.
Austerity.
Abstinence.
Yeah.
I think that list actually really
reveals, maybe more than usual,
a pretty clear understanding of
himself and what he's good at.
Because they certainly all
match what we seem to know about
him from reading this text.
Yeah.
But he's, it is interesting that he's
being so hard on himself about this.
Oh, so hard.
That he seems to, A, recognize that
he has a bunch of these virtues.
Not the most fun ones
necessarily, but they are virtues.
But then the rest of this entry is about
how don't, use them and don't just say,
oh, I can't be quick witted or whatever.
What really irks me is the last sentence.
And you need to work on
that as well, that slowness.
Ugh, that's so gross.
I wish he ended it at the part
where he's I have all these
other virtues and that's okay.
Yeah, the second, the whole second
half, this bit about, is it some
inborn condition that makes you
whiny and grasp at random secrets.
I know, it's horrible.
Wow, is very mean.
It's maybe the meanest we've
ever heard him be to himself.
Yeah, poor guy.
Yeah.
Poor little, he's getting made fun
of his wife apparently historians are
split on whether there was actually
any Anything going on where his wife
like it might all just have been
political, politically driven rumor.
And he just sits through it.
Like he's the emperor.
He could have everyone
in that theater killed.
Yeah.
Yep.
It's insane.
And he doesn't do it.
I don't know.
I think it might actually be wrong
politically not to have done something,
not to have there be some consequences.
Yeah.
But yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
We've talked about this before.
Yes, that the amount of power he
had available to him and the way he
chose to use it is still mystifying
to me, even when I understand
what this how this philosophy.
Let's try to explain that
moment using his philosophy.
Yeah.
You're in this theater.
Yeah, you're the emperor.
Yeah, the people need to have a good time.
Like it's appropriate for the people to
insert list of like whenever he insults.
Yes people call it an
idiot the common idiots.
Yeah, and he's like I'm above my people.
These are my people they need
that it's healthy or normal for
them or whatever to let them think
that I have problems in my life.
Yeah, and they're small minded or
whatever, but they can't help that.
They think that my wife was
cheating on me, that's cute, yeah.
Eh.
That would be very big of him,
but then this doesn't make
me think Yeah, that's true.
It's, yeah, it's hard to square
that high mindedness with And
you need to work on that as well.
Yeah, what's wrong with you, Marcus?
That slowness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I have had this internal
monologue, this internal conversation
around Whoa, quick wittedness
is not one of your talents.
It's actually something
I've had with myself.
Cause I'm, I do surround, whatever,
you don't need to say anything, but
I do surround myself with people
who are like, I think very funny.
And so I tend to, so the way I have
this conversation with myself, or I,
maybe I think about this less often
now as I'm more comfortable in my own
skin as I've gotten older, but it's my
I'm the laugher like boy would it be
what a boy would it suck not to have
a laugher in the group That's right.
Have everyone be the jokester.
Yeah, so I'm a pretty good laugher
and I've enjoyed I get to enjoy Yeah,
I think you're funny by the way, I
don't think you're selling yourself.
Yeah, but I need to work on that slowness
Tom Not so quick True have we ever, this
really feels like Marcus actually, it
feels more like a diary in some ways.
Yeah.
Marcus actually confessing his
substantial insecurity about himself.
That's true.
In a way that I feel like we have not
yet really encountered in the text.
That's true.
Yeah, no this sort of goes against what
we were saying last time that this.
He knew that this would get published
and this was just propaganda.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
This does not feel like
something that's cool.
That's intended for publication.
That's cool.
I wonder.
Yeah, we're probably oversimplifying
matters by saying it was all
intended for a publication.
Or it wasn't, it's probably he starts
writing some stuff down and some
of it's personal and some of it,
maybe it's gonna be a book later.
. And it's, and in the end he dies
and they all just, they squish it
all together and it just goes out.
Yeah.
And some of it, he meant that
to have it's probably him.
That's probably true.
Yeah.
Wow.
What a, that was cool.
Yeah.
Wow.
I'm feeling like he, intentionally
or otherwise, who knows, he's done
something with the structure of
this book where the first couple of
chapters are a warmup or something.
He's like easing into it and then, I don't
know, he finds his stride or he starts
writing a little more, creatively and
uniquely, a little bit later in the book.
Yeah, no, this is getting
better and better.
I agree.
Where are we headed?
Yes, wow, nowhere to go but up here.
Okay, entry number six.
Some people, when they do someone
a favor, are always looking
for a chance to call it in.
And some aren't, but they're still
aware of it, still regard it as a debt.
But others don't even do that.
They're like a vine that produces grapes
without looking for anything in return.
A horse at the end of the race,
a dog when the hunt is over, a
bee with its honey stored, and a
human being after helping others.
Awesome.
They don't make a fuss about it, they just
go on to something else as the vine looks
forward to bearing fruit again in season.
We should be like that,
acting almost unconsciously.
And then there's a dash here which I think
means he's responding to himself, yes.
Except conscious of it.
Because it's characteristic of social
beings that they see themselves
as acting socially and expect
their neighbors to see it, too.
That's true, but you're
misunderstanding me.
This is the original speaker.
It's a little hard to follow
the text, but I think he's yeah,
there's a dialogue going on here.
That's true, but you're
misunderstanding me.
You'll wind up like the people I mentioned
before, misled by plausible reasoning.
But if you make an effort to understand
what I'm saying, then you won't need to
worry about neglecting your social duties.
Whoa.
I love this debate with himself
thing that he's doing more of.
Yeah, he's doing that
sort of Socratic y thing.
Yeah.
I love it.
Yeah human beings are, yes, satisfied
and full of their purpose when
they've helped others, basically.
Cool perspective.
Cool perspective.
Yeah, like it.
Like it.
Two thumbs up, Marcus.
A bee when the honey is stored.
Yes.
A dog when the hunt is over.
A horse at the end of the race.
These are satisfied beings.
Yeah.
That have done the thing they
were supposed Yes, exactly.
That's cool.
Interesting little dialogue at the end,
though, about the question of to what
extent should we be conscious of the
help that we have offered to others.
One speaker says.
The best is to be complete, almost
completely unconscious of it.
And the other says, no, we're social.
We should be conscious
of it, but still act.
So the action is clear.
And it's a question of like, how
should we relate to our helpfulness?
I have to say, I'm sympathetic
to the second person who says,
don't put it out of your mind.
Don't Don't pretend you, Oh, I'm sorry.
I don't, I wasn't, I didn't even
realize I was helping you or whatever.
I think for me, there's a way that if you
can be of service to other people, you can
be grateful for that and mindful of it.
In a way that's satisfying, but he's
the first person to saying that's
dangerous because then you become a tally
keeper, whatever this guy owes me that.
Okay.
So I, so it's cool that
you took that side.
I'm going to take the other side.
Cause I, I think that tally
keeping, if you just think about
it, not as like a society, but
just on a personal level, yeah.
Tally keeping is is an emotionally
draining activity that is hard on the.
On the brain, like it just then you're
just waiting for something to happen.
You don't know what's going
on in the other person's life.
Maybe they have a crazy crisis
that's, causing them not to.
Not to be able to do something back
for you and it is yeah It's just
draining to have to do tally keeping.
Yes.
I agree with that.
And so and it's wrong to expect
fairness Yeah, like there's tally
keeping or the first kind of person
he's describing here Yeah has this like
notion that it will all be equaled out.
Yeah in the end.
Yeah, and I agree I think
that's a mistake, right?
But I think there is a way to just
hold hey, I did a nice thing for
this person Yeah, and no one's
gonna And then I didn't do it.
I didn't do it in any kind of expectation
that I was going to get paid back for it.
But it still is a part of who
I am that I do those things.
I shouldn't pretend that
it's not, yeah, that's true.
The part that I, yeah, that I agree
with about that is you might as well
feel good about what you're doing.
Totally.
It's weird a honey, a bee should
feel good about storing honey.
A horse should feel good
about finishing the race.
Yeah, the dog is allowed to be
happy at the end of the hunt.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Don't make a fuss about it.
I wonder, yeah, I wonder if this is
another interpretation thing that he's, in
either scenario, you can still be happy,
but as long as you don't make a fuss.
Yeah, don't.
Yes.
And I think we can, we could cut
that down however we want, but right.
But I think big picture, it's
hard not to agree with that.
Yeah.
Like we all can imagine the person
who does something nice for each
other or for another person and
then wants a bunch of attention
for the nice thing that they did.
Yeah.
And that sucks.
And we get why that sucks.
The grapes analogy is fantastic, right?
The grapes produce, the vines
produce grapes every year.
And every year they get taken away.
And it does it again.
So you're really getting
nothing in return.
Yeah, that is maybe too extreme in
the sense that we don't have a concept
that the vines are really feeling much.
And that's why it's a good metaphor,
because they're doing it without
needing any incentive to do it.
But it breaks down at the end,
I think, because It raises this
question of should we even be
conscious of the nice things we do?
And I think it's okay for us to be
conscious of the nice things we do,
even though the vine can't be, or
rethink the vine is not conscious
of the grapes that it's making
and giving, but it's interesting.
It's still nice.
Yeah.
I, interesting.
Like it, but I, it requires a kind of like
selfishness or obliviousness or something.
Yeah.
That I, I.
I want to push back against a little
bit, yeah, I think it's hard to design a
societal structure where, people behave
as that vine, and literally get nothing
in return for the things they do, and
have that still be a good society.
I could see, there's a small,
there are small scenarios where
I could see that happen, right?
In some ways being a parent
is a little bit like this.
You give it, you invest so much into
this thing, and then it goes off,
and, maybe it doesn't see you again.
Yeah.
And that's, and yeah, you
didn't get anything in return.
Yeah.
But it's still a good thing.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, I totally agree.
I think, to me, this is a description
of people who are functioning
at like the absolute top of the
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Yeah.
It's this is what a self actualized
person or whatever is capable of doing.
Yeah.
But you're totally right that in
societies and stuff need to account
for the fact that A lot of people are
not, do not have all their needs met
and therefore can't do this because
they, they need stuff in return for
the work they do or the favors they do.
Sure.
I guess it's a question of the time frame
in which you get something in return.
Technically the grape is planted.
And is care and, and the and the like
insects are kept off of it and, there
are things that in a very long timeframe
it gets in return for the grapes.
Yeah.
Yeah, we get metaphysical
there very fast because we
returning to your parent example.
Yeah.
It's not clear really in this.
Their kids never really fully pay
them back in this life and you
can ask questions about maybe.
In some future life or something,
they get the karma back, but yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's cool.
It's cool.
A analogy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like it too, for sure.
And it feels very universal, be like
a vine that produces grapes without
looking for anything in return.
If you told me that was in the Bible or
some, I'd be like, yep, that's right.
Yeah.
Marcus is the head of state religion.
Yeah, exactly.
So this feels just a nice little sort
of religious metaphor that almost
any religion could believably adopt.
Next time Oopie does the dishes,
I'll let her know that she's like
a vine producing grapes and she
should expect nothing in return.
Don't make a fuss about it.
I'm sure she'll appreciate that.
Yes, you will be receiving no gratitude.
Just go on with something else
as the vine looks forward to
bearing fruit again in season.
My love.
You're encouraging her
to self actualize it.
Yes.
I'm just saying, exactly.
Ascend the Maslow's hierarchy.
Pushing her up the pyramid.
Okay, number seven.
Prayer of the Athenians.
Zeus, rain down on the
land and fields of Athens.
Either no prayers at all, or
one as straightforward as that.
Okay.
So this prayer rules is it's cool.
It's specific.
Is that what he likes about it?
Yeah.
It's it's also, it's just
a straight up request.
There's no I'm just guessing
as to what he means.
Oh, there's no fluff.
There's no fluff.
Oh, great.
Zeus, you're the best.
Nope.
Hey, Zeus, give me some rain.
is what?
This is what this prayer says.
Okay.
It's and there's no self debasement.
There's no even though I don't
deserve humble, even though I don't
deserve it, give me some rain.
It's just I need rain
Okay.
He really jumps around in
these sections, my goodness.
It does seem we're maybe picking up on
the, he, it feels like he has religion,
or at least it's feeling more religion y.
Yeah.
He maybe has it on the mind or something.
Yeah.
But it's interesting, the last
sentence is a bit interesting.
He's saying, also it would
be fine not to pray at all.
Either no prayers or.
Straightforward.
As that.
It seems like he's anti
prayer a little bit.
But, he can tolerate it
if it's just very direct.
There's too many layers of abstraction.
I don't know what he's talking about.
But I think that's, that
is really interesting.
That's a good point
that you picked that up.
Either no prayers at all.
Huh.
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
The Marcus I know.
It's don't go overboard on him.
Not a big prayer guy.
Doesn't seem like prayer would really
factor into his worldview in particular.
Because, what is it's so obviously about
the stuff you can't control and this
whole thing is about the stuff you can.
Sure.
But he likes this one.
That's interesting.
Let's let's see if we come back
to prayers and we have some second
dot to connect the line with.
I feel like this will be interesting if
he talks about prayers in the future.
Yeah, I agree.
So yeah, tucking away for the future.
Not a big prayer guy, that makes sense.
But if you're gonna pray, be direct.
He has some opinions about
what a prayer should be like.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
Number eight.
Just as you overhear people saying
that, quote, the doctor prescribed such
and such for him, like riding or cold
baths or walking barefoot, say this.
Nature prescribed illness for him.
Or blindness.
Nice.
Or the loss of a limb or whatever.
Their prescribed means something like
ordered so as to further his recovery.
And so too here.
What happens to each of us is ordered.
It furthers our destiny.
So cool!
And when we describe things as taking
place, we're talking like builders, who
say that blocks in a wall or a pyramid
take their place in the structure and
fit together in a harmonious pattern.
For there is a single harmony.
Just as the world forms a single body
comprising all bodies, so fate forms a
single purpose comprising all purposes.
Even complete illiterates
acknowledge it when they say that
something brought on this or that.
Brought on, yes, or prescribed it,
and in that case, let's accept it, as
we accept what the doctor prescribes.
It may not always be pleasant, but we
embrace it, because we want to get well.
Look at the accomplishment of nature's
plans in that light, the way you look
at your own health, and accept what
happens, even if it seems hard to accept.
Accept it because of what it leads to.
The good health of the world.
And the well being and prosperity
of Zeus himself, who would not have
brought this on anyone unless it
brought benefit to the world as a whole.
No nature would do that, bring
something about that wasn't
beneficial to what it governed.
So there are two reasons
to embrace what happens.
One is that it's happening to you.
It was prescribed for you
and it pertains to you.
The thread was spun long ago
by the oldest cause of all.
The other reason is that what happens
to an individual is a cause of well
being in what directs the world of
its well being, its fulfillment,
and its very existence even.
Because the whole is damaged if you
cut away anything at all, from its
continuity and its coherence, not
only its parts, but its purposes.
And that's what you're doing when
you complain, hacking and destroying.
Book 5 is a banger!
Book 5 is amazing!
I agree, yes, I'm responding to that.
Oh my goodness!
More to this too.
I like the, the little bit at the
beginning about, just as doctors
prescribe, so too does nature.
Nature prescribed blindness
and now you're here.
Nature prescribed the
loss of a limb for you.
Yeah.
Okay, so it's very like Hindu, you
are one of, a part of everything else.
Yes.
Destiny, fate, all of that.
It's more opinionated, I feel like
he waffles back and forth on if
nature is good or nature is neutral.
Oh.
Yeah is this pyramid, do
we, are we into the pyramid?
I guess the pyramid is supposed to be a
cool thing that we're supposed to like.
Yeah, I think we're supposed
to, yeah, the pyramid is We
like being a brick in the wall.
Is the majesty of the design.
But this one is clearly on
the side of nature is good.
When you complain about nature,
you are violating the good pattern.
Hacking and destroying.
You are hacking and destroying.
Yeah.
Just by complaining.
Which, yeah.
Ah, yeah, you're right to point that out.
I guess personally, I just
think, I think nature is neutral.
Yeah, I think that's our
modern conception of it.
He's invoking Zeus specifically
more than he has historically.
Book 5 he's gained religion, yeah.
Yeah, Zeus has shown up.
Yeah, so now everything good.
Yeah, nature good more so than nature
neutral is what we're getting here.
Is he arguing that you shouldn't
do what the doctor prescribed?
That's interesting.
Cause that seems weird.
I don't think so.
Are you not hacking and destroying by
riding your horse and walking barefoot?
Those aren't complaints.
I think, to him, going to the
doctor when you're sick is natural.
You should, it's normal to
want to live and persist.
But it's not natural to complain.
Yeah, that's the funny thing, is that
everything's fine, everything's normal,
except when you complain, basically.
That's disrespectful.
Because, that's the thing that
you're really in control of.
To him, going to the doctor, you're in
control, of going to the doctor, too.
But it's actually right and good.
You should want to live, because
that's a normal part of being a human.
Basically.
But, there's no reason to complain.
Complaining is pointless, and all you're
doing is hacking and destroying the
beautiful pyramid that you're a part of.
Or whatever.
I think this can be interpreted either
way, but I agree with your interpretation.
About the about okay, just because
nature prescribed you a lost limb
doesn't mean you shouldn't try
to not take that prescription.
Yes.
With, by by, I don't know whatever
the antidote for a lost limb is.
Okay, bad example.
Getting a prosthetic.
yEah, I don't think he's just saying,
you're sick, be sick yeah, okay.
So he's just saying don't be sad about it.
Yeah, in some ways to me this is if
you want to boil down the whole thing
we've read in this whole book into
a single bullet point, this is it.
It's do what the world tells you
to do, but the only thing that's
like a waste of time is the stuff.
Where you just complain.
Agitation.
Yeah, there's no point in that.
All that matters is what you choose to do.
So just go along with the stuff
the world is telling you to do.
And quit complaining about it
because it doesn't do any good.
That's nice.
Yeah.
I think that is probably about as
clearly as he has stated like a
sort of thesis of the whole thing.
It's well written.
I can see, yeah this is
getting, yeah, it does.
He is getting a little
more lyrical or something.
Yeah.
There is a single harmony just
as the world forms a single
body compressing all bodies.
So yeah, it forms a single purpose.
Yeah.
All purposes.
Yeah.
He's getting very getting eloquent and
very it's not just on the personal level.
It's here's how the universe works.
Yeah.
That's true.
That's true.
Yeah, he jumps in between, here's
how the universe works, and
Marcus, be quicker on the uptake.
Number nine.
Not to feel exasperated, or defeated,
or despondent, because your days aren't
packed with wise and moral actions.
Here we go!
But to get back up when you fail.
To celebrate behaving like a human,
however imperfectly, and fully embrace
the pursuit that you've embarked on.
Marcus, I love this.
I love this, and it's completely tell
that to yourself two chapters ago.
I have a guy for you to talk to, Marcus.
This goes on.
And to not think of philosophy as
your instructor, but as the sponge and
egg white that relieves ophthalmia.
You're such a good reader.
I'm so glad you're
reading this, and not me.
That is a yes.
I don't know what ophthalmia is.
It seems like an eye disease.
It's the thing that you would,
yeah, sponge and egg white.
Yes, as the sponge and egg white
that relieve ophthalmia as a
soothing ointment, a warm lotion.
Not showing off your obedience
to the logos, but resting in it.
Remember, philosophy requires only
what your nature already demands.
What you've been after
is something else again.
Something unnatural.
Wow.
But what could be preferable?
That's exactly how pleasure
traps us, isn't it?
Wouldn't magnanimity be preferable?
Or freedom?
Honesty?
Prudence?
Piety?
And is there something
preferable to thought itself?
To logic?
To understanding?
Think of their sure footedness.
Their fluent stillness.
Wow!
This is getting This is awesome!
Okay.
Yes.
So first, first paragraph is
you're human, which is awesome.
And it's a great statement.
Yeah.
Very modern.
Yes.
Very modern.
And also I really celebrate that.
Like when you make mistakes, when
you don't adhere to your philosophy,
not only don't beat yourself up,
but actually be like, Hey, wow,
this is a part of being human.
Like revel in it.
I love that.
Did someone else write this?
Is this the same guy?
It does feel like, either he's
had a major breakthrough, or
somebody else has gotten to him.
I guess this is a book to, a testament
to that imperfection, because he goes
back and forth, and sometimes he forgets
this, and maybe that's part of the beauty.
Yeah, and then we get this guide on how
to use philosophy in your life, which
is something that he, this is like meta
commentary in a way that he doesn't,
he hasn't given us that much of, okay,
I'm writing all this philosophy, but
how do you square it with your actions?
Yeah, and I like this analogy of it's
not like It's not your instructor.
It's a ball.
It's like that is cool.
Yeah, it's something to Help yourself
when you need the comfort, but that's
not like You're wrong to think that it's
like some prescriptive set of actions.
You're supposed to take all the time Wow.
Yeah.
That's really interesting because
I think we have been reading this
through a lens of instructor.
Totally.
Yes.
He's seen so much of the time.
It's so prescriptive and
so about do this, not that.
And the Balm analogy is
interesting because you don't,
this was your comment earlier.
You don't use the Balm
when things are good.
Yeah.
If you're, if you don't have.
Ophthalmia, then there's no reason
to apply a sponge and egg white.
Oh, yeah, lovely.
So universal, and yet so also
dated as the same as sponge and
egg white derivative of ophthalmia.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And the idea that, sorry,
I'm just going to keep going.
No, go ahead.
The idea that philosophy is an
instructor is a pleasure trap?
That's what he's saying?
I think what he's saying So, so he
says, he has this bit at the end
of that paragraph about what you've
been after is something else again,
something unnatural, by contrast to
the idea that philosophy requires
only what your nature already demands.
So I think what he's telling himself
is hey, you've been beating yourself up
because you've been expecting too much.
You've been wanting something
in your life that is not how
the world works, basically.
And you've, and part of that has been
that you've been using philosophy.
Too much you think that your philosophy
is gonna unlock some whole new way of
living for you Yeah, it's the wrong
way of thinking about philosophy.
It's just a bomb.
It's not Yeah, it's not some
new set of prescriptions.
So you've been wishing for
something It's too much.
You've been in a pleasure trap.
Yes, and that's the
pleasure trap, basically.
It's you love philosophy, Marcus.
I know you love philosophy.
That's true.
And you think it's gonna solve all
your problems, but you're wrong.
Okay, so bookmark this, highlight it
three times, and just, let's see how
much he changes after writing this.
And also, how many entries would this
be a good response, like, how many
times would Marcus write something
could I say, yes, but what about book 5.
9, Marcus, where you made this good point?
How many chapters from this chapter how
soon is he going to start telling himself
that he needs to hurry and that he's
not good enough, I suspect that he will
do, write something that feels like a
contradiction that leads to our minds.
Within the next, like certainly within
this book and probably before we
reach bullet point 20 in this book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
Let's find out.
Yeah.
Let's do one more.
Let's do one more, yeah.
Number 10.
Things are wrapped in such a veil of
mystery that many good philosophers have
found it impossible to make sense of them.
Even the Stoics have trouble.
Okay.
Any assessment we make is subject to
alteration just as we are ourselves.
Look closely at them.
How impermanent they are.
How meaningless.
Things that a pervert can own.
A whore.
A thief.
What?
Wait.
I don't know what the
them in this sentence is.
Assessments?
Yes.
The assessments are subjective.
Okay, anyone can own them.
Anyone can have
assessments, even perverts.
Okay, all right, I'm not really following
you yet, Marcus, but he continues.
Then look at the way
people around you behave.
Even the best of them are hard
to put up with, not to mention
putting up with yourself.
Is it okay?
All right, Marcus.
Jeez, okay.
Pump the brakes.
In such deep darkness, such a sewer,
in the flux of material, of time, of
motion, and things moved, I don't know
what there is to value or to work for.
Quite the contrary.
We need to comfort ourselves
and wait for dissolution.
And not get impatient in the meantime.
Okay.
But take refuge in these two things.
One, nothing can happen
to me that isn't natural.
Two, I can keep from doing anything that
God and my own spirit don't approve.
No one can force me to.
Okay.
Wow, okay, this one, okay I gotta, yeah.
We need to, we need, I need, let's
work through this a little bit.
Alright.
Things are wrapped in a veil of mystery.
Yeah, I really like the first sentence
where he's like, Life's crazy, even
philosophers can't figure it out.
Yep.
Which is funny to me because, yeah duh.
But I guess it almost It's just
funny for the opposite reason.
Philosophers can't figure it out.
Yeah, we know.
Even the Stoics have trouble.
Yeah!
Yeah.
That is funny, yeah.
Yeah.
It's like when a kid says the
opposite I didn't eat any chocolate.
Yeah.
It almost indicates that
he thought the opposite.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
What were the, as what were the
assumptions you came into this
book with that people, everyone
does have life figured out.
Marcus.
I love anytime Marcus
does a list, it's funny.
Yeah.
A pervert, a whore and a thief.
Yes.
can have an assessment.
Those at least are more like modern.
Yeah, that list makes sense
to modern ears whatever.
It's not that they aren't really
terms we use as much anymore.
But sometimes those lists
involve groups of objects where
I don't even understand what the
similarity between the objects is.
At least with this one, I'm like,
okay, he means bad people, or people
he perceives as being bad people.
I wish whore wasn't on
the list, but that's fine.
Yeah, so that is an example of the
one we wouldn't do as much anymore.
Okay.
Then look at the way
people around you behave.
Even the best of them
are hard to put up with.
I love that.
It's really dark, really fast.
Yeah.
Not to mention putting up with yourself.
Okay.
So what is the segue
between life is confusing?
Assessments are subject to alteration.
The world is just a confusing
place and hard to put up with and
all your judgments of the world.
are like kinda just like shit.
Basically, like whatever you came
up with, it's probably wrong.
And it's gonna change.
The world is more complicated
than you think it is.
And everybody your assessments are trash.
And, by the way, so everybody else
is dealing with this problem, too.
I think there's a way of looking
at this is actually like We
should be sympathetic to people.
Because everybody is dealing
with a set of assessments Sure.
that is totally inadequate to the
challenge that life presents them with.
Yeah.
And, not only do we have to put up
with all these other shitty people who
have no idea what's going on, also, we
don't know what's going on it's hard.
And why even bother?
Why even make an effort to do anything in
this crazy, overwhelming place we live?
Yeah.
Yep.
But, there are these two truths that
seem to be like Close to his axiomatic
fundamental truth of the universe.
Yeah.
Number one is probably
like his catchphrase.
Alma mater.
Yeah, exactly.
And then number two is interesting,
but it also seems very, yeah,
quintessential to his perspective that
no one can force you to do anything
that violates your moral compass.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
This section reminds me of
the existentialism, the sort
of outcome of existential.
Okay.
Oh my gosh, nothing matters.
Oh no.
Yeah.
And then the outcome is yes, that's true.
You have to do both.
You have to accept that nothing matters.
Yeah.
And you have to still do stuff.
Yeah.
As despite, as if it matters, as if it
matters, despite the fact that you have
to yeah, that's the answer to life.
Hold this dissonance.
Yes.
Which is effectively
what he's saying here.
Yeah.
Although, not quite.
He's saying quite the contrary.
He's saying so the whole first
section is everything sucks, and
then he's quite the contrary.
We need to comfort ourselves
and wait for dissolution.
Wait for dissolution.
I think that sentence, we need
to comfort ourselves and wait for
dissolution, is a, seems like it's a
pretty crucial part of this entry, and
I don't know that I totally follow it.
What is dissolution?
Dissolution, to be dissolved.
I assume that means to die and
rejoin the world, that, yeah, that.
Okay.
Maybe this is just a weird translation,
but I think he really is saying what
we should do is, even though we're
humans and life is crazy, we should just
Take a breath try to be as comfortable
as we can yeah during life Yeah, and
do our thing and just like when our
time comes great nice now You don't
have to deal with that makes sense.
Yeah, just solution such a weird
way to talk about death, okay?
I think that's what he means Also,
that's a bleak perspective on life.
The point of life is to try to
be comfortable to the extent that
you can with the crazy world until
it's finally time for you to die.
That's in line with what
he said in the past.
But to enter the last entry, he
was saying there's stuff worth
celebrating about being human.
And this sounds very much like being human
is something that you tolerate the best
you can until it's finally blessedly over.
I guess a comfort ourselves.
Is a way, is it celebration maybe
is a proxy for comfort ourselves?
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah, that's fair.
Comfort is, yeah, you can interpret it.
I think there's a moderate
interpretation of comfort, which
is just about not feeling bad.
Yeah.
But there's maybe a broader reading
of comfort that's more about
all the stuff we enjoy of life.
We can look at as the comforts of life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think that's a good point.
In such deep darkness, such a
sewer, in the flux of material, of
time, of motion, of things moved.
He's getting very emo for a minute there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I Still Yeah, and I mean, the Yeah, there
is something about Cognitive dissonance
that's really coming to mind here for me.
At the point you bring up with
existentialism, it feels like we hold
that, a similar kind of dissonance
with Marcus from entry to entry.
I guess that's the big meta point.
Okay my perspective is
Marcus is on a roll.
Marcus is on a roll!
He's spittin hot fire.
He really is.
He's unstoppable.
Yeah, he has something in his life,
possibly an embarrassment at a
theater, has really inspired him.
Just to get you audience members excited
about the next reading, it starts
with What am I doing with my soul?
Question mark.
Okay, cool.
Let's leave it there and we'll
pick that back up next episode.
Bye bye!
Bye.