Revenue Brothers

Despite having around 1,000 employees and 11 offices, Julius Koehler, a co-founder of sennder, still spends most of his time on the road, meeting customers face-to-face.

It may not be the typical play from a founder, but he discusses with Raul and Toni why it works for him and his team, as well as the challenges it brings.

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (00:55) - Meet Julius and sennder
  • (03:59) - Everytime you double the business, you need to rebuild the company
  • (05:52) - Still meeting face-to-face as a founder
  • (14:34) - Saving hopeless deals
  • (19:38) - The difficulties of face-to-face
  • (22:33) - What I would have done differently

Creators & Guests

Host
Raul Porojan
Director of Sales & Customer Success at Project A Ventures
Host
Toni Hohlbein
CEO of Growblocks
Guest
Julius Koehler
Co-Founder & Managing Director at sennder

What is Revenue Brothers?

What happens when a VC and a CEO come together?

– They nerd out about all things revenue. And they don’t always agree.

Raul Porojan of Project A Ventures and Toni Hohlbein of Growblocks are the Super Revenue Brothers. In every episode they dissect and debate current issues in B2B SaaS, and offer solutions on how to solve them

No matter if you’re an early-stage startup or a scaling unicorn – you’ll always learn something new.

Introduction
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​[00:00:00]

Toni: People shouldn't be feeling that they need to shy away from that, they should be feeling that, there's this one mold, there's one role of a CEO, founder, and they have to fill that.

Toni: I think it's a great example that, that simply doesn't need to be the case

Raul: Welcome everyone to a new episode and a premiere episode for the Revenue Brothers. As you might have recalled, we changed the name, but we didn't only change the name. We didn't just leave out the super. We're introducing a new format and we're very happy to have with us today. Julius Köhler, uh, or Julius, uh, as I've known him for a while now, from, uh, Zenda, one of my, at least for my last job, most beloved, founders and most beloved ventures.

Raul: Today for the first actual threesome that we have at Zenda. So far, it's only been me and, and Toni just chatting away. So Julius, you are the first one to actually join us. Before we get into that, can you just introduce yourself? I think Toni and me, we're, we're old.

Raul: People here, but like, who are you and, and what's Sennder?

Meet Julius and sennder
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Julius: Absolutely. First of all, what an honor, uh, to be your, uh, your first guest, [00:01:00] uh, in this threesome. And it's a pleasure to be here today. A couple of words, about myself. I come from Stuttgart, , originally in Southern Germany. , I spent part of my youth growing up in the U. S. , and then almost 10 years ago, I actually ended up in, , in Berlin.

Julius: , during my undergraduate studies, , in Scotland, I got to know my two co founders during a summer internship, , David, , as well as Nico, , with whom I founded a logistics company back in 2016. Um, that, uh, we've step by step, uh, sort of scaled and grown, , throughout, , Europe now, where on the one side, we connect large enterprise companies, the likes of Coca Cola, , et cetera, , with on the other side, , small, , mostly family owned, , trucking companies, , and we act, as a tech marketplace, , connecting, , the two sides.

Julius: And, uh, yeah, that in a nutshell, uh, very, very briefly, um, is Sennder.

Toni: To add maybe a little bit of, , interest here from everyone listening and who doesn't fully know, you know, the size of Sennder. Can you talk a little bit about [00:02:00] like a size? It doesn't need to be a revenue necessarily, but just for people to have an understanding, you know, how, how big you have grown this to so far, Julius?

Julius: Yeah. , absolutely. So to give you sort of two dimensions where roughly a thousand employees in total size, , spread out, , across 11 offices, , And, , yeah, have grown quite significantly on the organic side. And I'll get to that in a second. , as well as, , on the inorganic side, , through a couple of M&A transactions that, we've conducted over the last years.

Toni: Pretty impressive. Pretty impressive, Julius. Congrats. Congrats to all of that progress.

Julius: you. Thank you.

Raul: And also from at least a little bit, , the inside, but mostly from the outside looking in, , in the last six years that I was at Project A, by far one of the biggest growth stories. And, , I could see a little bit of what, what made that so special. And also, I think that's the main reason that we really wanted to have you here, Julius, today.

Raul: I think a very unique approach, , that I think a lot of founders could learn from. , to what it means to be a commercial founder in a company like this. And I think that's really , what interests me today and what we want to learn about today, [00:03:00] but, , maybe just, just to catch up, cause I've been out of the picture for a while now.

Raul: What have you been up to, Yunus? How's it going? How's it going at sennder? And how are you?

Julius: What have I been up to? I've been traveling a lot, , and, , super, super exciting times. , must be said that, I mean, the logistics market, it's a gigantic market. If you take a look around, no matter where you are, everything that you see came there by truck. And it hasn't only been on a truck once, but on average somewhat four to six times.

Julius: So if you take a wooden table, the wood was brought out of the woods on a truck. It was brought to the sawing mill and then sort of moved on to the final destination of, I don't know, your living room. and, , the segment that we're, , focusing on, , is the full truck load segment. So basically one customer, one truck, , and, , mostly operating or working with large enterprise customers, I tend to travel quite a lot.

Julius: So I'm actually, , in Amsterdam, , just now as a lot of the. Large scale players have their European headquarters in the Netherlands or in Switzerland. So yeah,

Everytime you double the business, you need to rebuild the company
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Raul: and [00:04:00] business wise, so very interesting. You're still, you're still with it, but I guess you're quite advanced already. , is there already something that you've changed about your product offering or have you, I don't know, taught your team about it and now they're better at selling it or how does that manifest itself?

Julius: Absolutely. It's a transitioning process. , and, , Niko, my co founder at one point said, every time that you doubled a business, you basically need to rebuild the entire company. , and I think that very much, , has applied or still applies, , , to sennder. , now, In these years, a lot has happened.

Julius: On the one side, I mentioned earlier that organic growth, onboarding new customers like Coca Cola, Volkswagen, etc., which always require a , new integrations, , API connections, EDI connections, et cetera, , to sort of streamline, , the entire process when it comes to receiving, , a load contract, , or when it comes to the billing, for example, , On the other [00:05:00] side, , we grew quite significantly, , in organically, , through acquiring, other companies.

Julius: I think the most significant was Uber Freight, , back in, , I think it was 2020, , that we, , that we bought the European division, , which then needed to be integrated. we found a couple of joint ventures, Post Italiana, like the joint venture with Post Italiana in Italy. Um, yeah, which, uh, makes up over 200 million, , in, annual revenues itself, , and of course, like an entire tech infrastructure.

Julius: For that needed to be built. , and then a couple other things, on the side, like the most recent, , joint venture, , Juna that we founded with Scania, , to basically make electric trucking, , accessible, uh, to, to the wider audience. So, um, yeah, something new pops up, , every month, , that we have to adjust to.

Julius: Uh, but, uh, those are just some noteworthy things.

Still meeting face-to-face as a founder
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Toni: And I think the whole inorganic story, I think this is also super interesting. , what we wanted to, you know, talk about today a little bit more is [00:06:00] actually kind of what your role is at sennder has been and still is to a large degree. And you just mentioned in the intro, you're currently in Amsterdam, I'm guessing meeting some of the, , the bigger players in the industry, right.

Toni: , and I'm guessing that happens face to face, otherwise you wouldn't be in Amsterdam. So tell us maybe a little bit more. Why are you meeting them face to face? Why is it you, why is it not some super highly paid, you know, enterprise account executive that does all of that stuff for you? , , why are you there?

Toni: you,

Julius: , and honestly, it's probably the thing that I enjoy most about, , about my job. I love being, on the road. , engaging with the primarily shippers, in our business.

Since day one, , it has been a very personal and relationship driven, , kind of business. , so I've always been involved and engaged , in the entire process. , now sort of turning back, , time a couple of years when we, , kicked off. , I was working together [00:07:00] with two interns and we basically took on all sorts of business.

Julius: Whatever brought in revenue, , we basically transported it, whether it was a finished car, , or whether it was sort of a career service of transporting a laptop that somebody else, somebody had forgotten. So. Yeah, whatever generated revenue. We did it. , and, , this is something that primarily the two interns focused on at, , at the time.

Julius: , and then I was starting to get engaged, , with the large enterprise, , customers where we tend to have sales cycles of. 6 to 12 months. It's a tender driven kind of business. So we basically price individual lanes, for example, from Berlin to Amsterdam. And we quote a price for that lane, depending on the equipment type that is needed, and a couple of other factors.

Julius: What happens then , is depending on your rate, , we engage in a , personal discussion and in a , personal meeting. , and this is where I am [00:08:00] still very involved and engaged, to date. , so we go out and schedule an in-person meeting. We introduce the company, we introduce our service, how we differentiate, , from another business.

Julius: . And, , with it being such an old school and old fashioned industry, , it is very common for the Geschäftsführer or for the Managing Director to be involved in the entire process, because in the end, the final decision making, , lays, , lays with him. Whenever it comes to these large scale customers, , , , that we primarily serve today, , I, , , handle a lot , of the relationships, , along with the sales team, , of course, and, , have probably positioned, , myself today as an executive sponsor, , slash joker, , that doesn't take anything from the incentives.

Julius: , but, , that's sort of just, , , just tags along. , and, , yeah, helps and assists in pushing, , things across the finishing line. , so that is sort of, , yeah, , my position, , today within the company.

Raul: So your [00:09:00] sales team must love you being involved then actually, right? You help them close, but you don't take any money from them.

Julius: Well, I'd like to think so. I, I think for, for the people that I'm on the road with quite often, , it's not only sort of a business relationship that we have, but it's also a friendship that, , that has evolved and like you, you sort of understand their background and they sort of, yeah, know my family constellation with wife and kids , and so on.

Julius: , And so that builds over time. I think , for the, for some of them, when I joined for the first time, they tend to be a bit frightened, , or not frightened, but, , maybe a bit nervous. , but in the end, , we're in the same team, , and we're both there to win. , so I think, , that settles quite, uh,, quite quickly.

Julius: , and, uh, yeah, uh, it's, as I said, it's what I, what I really enjoy most.

Toni: I can see this working. Um, I can see this being extremely good fit, right? Kind of the boss of the one company with the boss of the other [00:10:00] company. I can see that this is how in logistics, especially the big deals, how that in the end is being kind of done. , do you think it was , it was a thing that you adjusted to because it was called for, right?

Toni: Kind of, you basically kind of, as a founder, you looked at this, it's almost, you can look at this as a go to market fit lens and realize like, Hey, one of the three of us, I think it was three founders, I think, , one of the three of us needs to actually be there. , and do that work. , and you were just like, you had the skillset already and then you jumped in and it was wonderful.

Toni: Or was it more of a realization that needed to happen? , and, you know, someone had to develop those skills, right? Because I can also imagine other founders listening, realizing that's what the situation is. And then they look around the room, it's like, well, no one actually has that specific skill, right?

Toni: And, , and in your case, was it like luck that you had it, or did you develop it? Did you grow into that? Tell us a little bit more about that.

First of all, I'm, I'm super thankful to, to Nico as well as David, , that I can be in this position today and that I have the freedom,, to sort of travel and [00:11:00] realize all these, all these customer meetings. , going back a couple of years, , when I was sort of building the sales team, , I was doing all the forecasting.

Julius: I was doing the pricing, , and so on. And then sort of step by step. Transition out of that process as we, , had the capital to hire talent, , that could do all of these things much better than I could, um, and, , then I could focus more, , on really the traveling and, , and meeting the customers.

Julius: Now, I think that, would say that I've always been a salesperson. Love to sort of lead in negotiations and, and sort of find, find an agreement, , that everybody, , is happy with. I would say that it's, it comes somewhat naturally, , with me as, for example, with.

Julius: Mikkel, um, I, I think, um, his strengths are definitely, , somewhere else. For example, leads our M&A, , initiatives where of course, like it always requires, , negotiation as well. , but there are certain parts where like it's much more analytical, et cetera. [00:12:00] And when I go into, the shipper and negotiate negotiations and shipper meetings today, I go along with the team, we've prepared everything, a presentation, we've prepared the pricing, the calculations, , et cetera.

Julius: And then it's all about sort of, , yeah, bringing the most business, , across the finishing line. For me, , I would say it's very, very natural, , and something that I've probably inherited, , from my dad, , who's always been on the purchasing side. So on the other side of the table, and I always said, , I'd love to negotiate with everybody but my dad, um, but, uh, yeah, that's , where I probably got it from.

Raul: This is so interesting to me and I think also to people who might listen to this. And I think to you, this comes so natural Julius. , but, , a lot of founders are quite the opposite and a lot of commercial founders. And they're looking , to pass on that responsibility as soon as possible. It doesn't matter if it's to an intern or an SDR or a bunch of people.

Raul: \, But I do think there is a lot that, that, that comes with it. Can you maybe give like two or three [00:13:00] arguments? Like what is it that you can bring that is, that is even an account executive who maybe has more experience than you just can't bring that easily. Like, what is it that makes it so a founder in sales has a special position.

Julius: Good question. I mean, to a certain degree, of course, , my position comes with credibility, , and the role that I hold , within the company. Whenever I go out and meet one of our shippers, , I have sort of a different standing, , than one other person from the sales team, et cetera, , , , might have.

Julius: , Second thing is I'm relentless to a certain extent, , and whenever there's a no from A customer or from whomever. , this is really where I start hustling. , and, , , Nico always said, and, and a good deal needs to die three times. , I think this is something that we've continuously sort of followed, , at sennder.

Julius: , and whenever there's sort of like one piece of advice, [00:14:00] um, that, uh, that people ask me for, it's persistence. And I think there's no, No word that's, or no German word that can translate, persistence. , but, , this is something that, , yeah, we've always sort of followed and pursued, , at, , at sennder and yeah, driving home these large scale, , large scale deals, , in an industry, , that has been super old school, , and backwards, , to, to a certain extent.

Julius: , so yeah, I think. , that is sort of like the key element, , that I would, that I would give us advice.

Saving hopeless deals
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Toni: So when, when I learned about this the first time, right? So I think Raul was, , setting up kind of a round table for CROs and commercial leaders, and , I was part of that. , and I heard you saying, I think you said something like I'm on the road three out of five times, , days a week. I'm not sure if this is still the case.

Toni: You're nodding. Yes, that's the case. , and then you kind of started talking also about one of those stories where, , Okay, this customer is basically churned. I guess this [00:15:00] is one of the three deaths that deal needed to die. , and you go there and you come back with an upsell. Kind of, that was a little bit, when you told me this story and we're talking significant amount of, you know, this is big deals, right?

Toni: , and, , when you told me the story, I was just looking and it's like, you know what, okay, I actually see it. I get it. I, I get why you're doing this. , but do you have like a story, one or two of those where you're like, , for example, like this, I'm not sure how much you can talk about the details, but you're being dispatched as the CEO's.

Toni: Like, you know what, that's a, that's a hopeless deal. We are basically churn and it's basically gone. Um, and you come back with an upsell.

Julius: Yeah. So of these, um, these kinds of stories or cases, , over, over the last couple of years. , and. It's been fun, and in the end, like, we operate in a B2B environment, , despite, um, us sort of transporting goods for the end consumer, , it doesn't have a direct B2C kind of impact, , for example, if , I don't know, a load, , is [00:16:00] transported with a delay.

Julius: , you as an end customer aren't directly impacted. So I think that plays quite, , quite a large, , quite a large role. Second, , We're all humans, and we all make mistakes, , and then thirdly, I think it's all about sort of like open, , open communication, , that is super vital and super important, , in our industry.

Julius: Now, I think the first point is clear, , coming sort of to, to the second point that we all make mistakes, it's actually one of our values. We make mistakes, we learn from them. , and, , as we, uh, entered , the industry a couple of years, , ago, we had no clue. And, there were certain, , certain lanes or certain business, , which we, Mispriced, , that, , we, , for example, at one point, , and this was a large scale, seven digit, , deal.

Julius: , we, , I was in a customer meeting, , and, , I, , understood that a pallet exchange, , was not required, which is something that is common for [00:17:00] some sorts of business, , and for others it isn't, but it makes quite a significant, , difference in the pricing. And, , Fact was that a pallet exchange was required, and I misunderstood.

Julius: , in sort of the final discussion and the final negotiation, and this was like before, we had a legal team that would review all the contracts, , that, we had a pricing and a tender team that would go through all of these documents, , and review. This was, , like back in the day when. And we basically had an Excel table and manually did the pricing based on kilometer rates and so on.

Julius: , and we started a business and, , we suddenly built up, , this, , like a huge value of outstanding pallets because we were simply showing up with an empty truck. Getting all pallets on board and we weren't providing any empty ones, , in exchange. , and we basically then said to the customer a couple of weeks into the business, we have to adjust the prices or we simply cannot drive anymore going forward.

Julius: , [00:18:00] And, , this then led to a long discussion and we found a way in the end where we basically said, look, we're going to adjust our prices and repay with every single load, , for the outstanding , , pallets. And we closed a long term contract that where it's basically in the end, , all balanced out.

Julius: , so not only , the pallet exchange cost, but also the price increase, , and found a couple other measures, , where we could tweak like the payment terms, , and so on. , this was sort of like a negotiation or a deal, , where. We almost lost a customer, but in the end, , found a way to basically, , to basically make it work.

Julius: , and it's one of our longest standing shippers to date, , that we're, , yeah, have sort of the deepest, or one of the deepest relationships with, , so I'm very thankful , for their trust, , since, , since day one. And then coming to my third point, , it's all about the communication. , and that's something that, , is often lacking, in our industry.

Julius: And we're not [00:19:00] perfect at it. , but we're step by step sort of trying, um, to, to, um, yeah, become, uh, better and better at it, , that, , whenever , something goes wrong, , that we sort of actively, , approach the customer and discuss it openly, , because in the end, it's a collaboration, , and It needs to work for both sides.

Julius: And, uh, yeah, I think those are sort of the things that we, or I for myself, uh, very much focus on. That, , , we built long lasting relationships where, , sometimes we win, sometimes our shipper wins, but bottom line, it just needs to be, , needs to be equaled out.

The difficulties of face-to-face
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Raul: This is all obviously, Very inspiring. I hope to, to a lot of people, at least I think to, to Toni and me, that's why we wanted to have you here today.

Raul: , just , to understand though, obviously there's a lot of upsides. , is there also some downsides to this approach? So you're on the road a lot, obviously, , you're very involved in a lot of deals. Like what have you seen that maybe is a bit difficult from that position and how have you handled that , or maybe hired someone [00:20:00] else to do other things?

Raul: , what is it that you see , where you have to now try and compensate?

Julius: think the thing that is most difficult is just being away , from your family. , and I have a daughter now, she just turned two on Saturday. , and yeah, I mean, a lot of times, , yeah, , I simply don't see her for like three, four consecutive days. , one of the things I've actually started, two years ago when she was born is that whenever I'm on travel, , I send home a postcard, , and I basically write down, , or write out why , I'm currently not at home.

Julius: It's a huge stack of postcards. , we have a physical mailbox of the Deutsche Post , inside the apartment, , where my wife then drops, , the postcard, , and then one day I think , she'll understand why I've sacrificed so much time, , and sort of building, building this company.

Julius: And I consider it more of, more of an investment, uh, rather than a cost, , because, the deal, um, that I've made with my wife, um, is that, um, yeah, maybe this can sort of free up, um, [00:21:00] more time in the, in the future. So I'm very, very grateful. Uh, for, yeah, her sort of handling things, uh, at, at home. Then coming back to your, coming back to your question is, I think when it's your, your own business and when you have, , so much skin in the game, , you will always run the extra mile.

Julius: you have expectations. towards your employees and towards your sales team, , to do the same. , and for me, it's often the case, and, , Toni, we've spoken about this before, that I tend to drive quite a lot. , whenever it makes sense, I take the train, I sometimes also take the car, especially when I have dinners, , in the evening.

Julius: They'll still allow me after the dinner to sort of continue my travels and drive for four or five hours, , where I sometimes also, also drive home to then wake up , in my own bed. Um, but, um, this is something that, um, You, you cannot push your sales team to sort of continuously do. , and, , and to sort of continuously ask for them to, to always be [00:22:00] on the run and to, to have dinners, et cetera.

Julius: We try to split up, , these things and, , make sure that, , , sort of everybody has a stable, , work life balance, , and. , yeah, , these expectations, , of course sort of need to be aligned, , with yourself and sort of the interests of the, of the company.

Toni: I think this makes sense. And I think the work life balance issue, I think this is on the mind of many, many, many founders that also have a family, right? I think it's sometimes a little bit easier when you are, , when you don't have that component yet and can just like a hundred percent focus on work.

What I would have done differently
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Raul: , But what I wonder is like there was, I think it's quite, it's been quite the intense ride for you. Is there anything where you say, okay, I would have probably do this differently now if I could do it again? Uh, maybe, maybe you say, actually, I would be even more on the road or I would, uh, I would be, I would do it less or would you do anything differently if you would do it all over again?

Julius: So first of all, I mean, looking back at all these years, , I'm Super, super proud and what we, it's not about I, [00:23:00] it's about we, what we have accomplished , and what we, have built. , conducting thousands of monthly transports, , is quite exciting that, if you go to a store, , where you specifically know that, , the Coca Cola bottles, , in the store have been transported , on one of your trucks, um, is, uh, it's pretty cool.

Julius: , that makes me extremely proud. , and I'm very much looking forward, , to sort of the next years, , to come. Now. Is there something that I would have done differently? , of course, I mean, looking back and reflecting, , there's probably two things worth highlighting. , the one, , is to hire more quickly

Raul: and

Julius: that the pain needs to be so big that you literally have days without sleep. And only then you basically sacrifice the time to go into the recruiting process and to find the right talent , for the right position.

Julius: , and it's definitely something where we at times have been [00:24:00] ahead of the curve and at times have been, have been behind the curve. , our latest additions to , our C level, , with, , our CTO coming from CH Robinson, which is a large, , logistics company, , based out of the US, , or our chief product officer, David.

Julius: , being former chief product officer, , at booking. com, , yeah, are really sort of people that, , will make a change, for the company, , and the industry, , as a whole. This is something I would probably do differently, , and then second, And that is partially, I would say, our, , our fault, but also the sort of industry drive to a certain extent, , is our green offering.

Julius: I would say we kicked that off quite early, , four or five years ago that we started, , offering, , advanced fuels, , which allows us to reduce carbon emissions by over 90%. , and then the most latest addition, the joint venture Juna that I mentioned earlier, , with electric trucks. , where there's a ton of stuff, , that we can do, , and, , I mean, we are in an industry which is [00:25:00] primarily diesel driven, , today and with a, , a large 40 ton truck consuming 25 to 28 liters of diesel per 100 kilometers.

Julius: It's quite, , A large consumption. Of course, if you boil it down to sort of like , the weight, , and to the individual product, um, uh, yeah, it's, it's puts things into, into perspective, but nonetheless, , our green offering today is state of the art, , and it's something, , that I would have loved to, to kick off earlier, but , the adoption, , as well as the infrastructure when it comes to refueling, recharging stations, et cetera, , wasn't given. So step by step we're trying to close the gap. , so those are probably the two, , most noteworthy things.

Raul: So even when you get to the size of sennder, there's still like huge chunks where you, where you think you, you might've do it differently. And I think this is also a good learning for all founders listening to this. Like there's so much to do. , and then I really hope that, , people come out of this a bit inspired and be like, man, I should really.

Raul: I should really get out there. I should really, , see that customer. I should [00:26:00] really hunt that deal. I should really get a third no from, , from that forecast meeting before we really close it up. Cause I think this is really the essence of what you talked about here today. And that's, what's so interesting about your story, right?

Toni: And I also think , from a founder's perspective, also not being too proud. you know, or, you know, to, to not do these things, even at a large scale. And then also having the, you know, having the conviction that, Hey, this might sound odd, but this is the way I can contribute the most to this business.

Toni: , despite what other people might kind of think from the outside, it's like, no, wait a minute, kind of, you're the CEO of a thousand people. You need to think about all these other things all the time. You couldn't be possibly doing those, , those other things that you're doing right now. And kind of having the.

Toni: , the conviction that no, this is actually not true. I, yes, I need to do some of the other pieces. culture and so forth and building the company and equity story. And there's so many other things that you still need to do, but there are also so many pieces you can outsource through hiring, for example, and then focus your attention really where you think [00:27:00] you can, have the highest impact and I think, , people shouldn't be feeling that they need to shy away from that, they should be feeling that, there's this one mold, there's one role of a CEO, founder, and they have to fill that.

Toni: I think it's a great example that, that simply doesn't need to be the case. So Julius, wonderful to have you.

Julius: absolutely. , and sort of like a closing, closing note, um, I think this would've never been, never been possible without sort of having Nico as well as David. Um, on the side, David, uh, today acts as our single CEO. , and then step by step, we've sort of created, , that field, , for each of us to sort of excel in what we, , yeah, what we do best.

Julius: Um, so yeah, it was sort of in evolving process, , over, over the years. And I think everybody has found, , their spot in the company, , where we can have the most and the most long term impact. , over, overall, so I'm very happy.

Toni: Wonderful Julius. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. I think it [00:28:00] was really inspiring. I think Raoul thinks the same. And have a good one. Bye bye.

Julius: Thank you. You too. Ciao, ciao.