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After a scan revealed lesions on the brain, the UFC career of Spencer Fisher would soon come to an end. But the instincts of the popular MMA fighter, once called 'The King' weren't to seek treatment, but to find a doctor who'd clear him to fight again. Spencer Fisher shares his story of denial, his loss of identity as a fighter, and his daily fight for resilience in the face of brain injury.
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What is Me, Myself & TBI: Facing Traumatic Brain Injury Head On ?
Me, Myself & TBI: Facing Traumatic Brain Injury Head On provides information and inspiration for people affected by brain injury. Each episode, journalist and TBI survivor Christina Brown Fisher speaks with people affected by brain injury. Listen to dive deep into their stories and lessons learned.
Christina Brown Fisher:
Hello and welcome to the program, “Me, Myself, and TBI.” I'm your host, Christina Brown Fisher. I am a journalist and writer, but I’m also a traumatic brain injury survivor. I suffered my TBI following a motor vehicle wreck. One moment, I was pulling out of the driveway, waving good-bye to my mother in Virginia, and a day or so later, I was waking up, slipping-in-and-out of consciousness --- in an emergency room in Maryland --- unable to remember my name. I spent more than a year in neurorehabilitation.
During my recovery I searched for answers, and stories of healing and resilience. It’s actually one of the many reasons why I created this podcast, “Me, Myself and TBI.” I wanted to hear from people who’d been affected by brain injury. More importantly I wanted to know how, or if, or whether life after T-B-I could be as good, or better than life prior to brain injury. I wasn’t so sure as I tried to reclaim what had been lost following my own TBI.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC, it’s estimated two-and-a-half million people suffer a TBI each year. A traumatic brain injury can happen after a forceful, or violent blow, or jolt to the head. In short, a TBI is brain dysfunction caused by an outside force. Not all jolts to the head result in a TBI. Some types of TBI, according to the National Institutes of Health, “can cause temporary or short-term problems with normal brain function, including problems with how the person thinks, understands, moves, communicates, and acts. More serious TBI can lead to severe and permanent disability, and even death.”
Every episode of “Me, Myself and TBI” you’ll hear from someone impacted by brain injury. They may be a researcher advancing what is known about TBI, a caregiver, clinician, or traumatic brain injury survivor.
Joining me from his home in North Carolina is retired mixed martial arts fighter Spencer Fisher. Spencer fought professionally for ten years from 2002 to 2012, racking up seventeen fights with the Ultimate Fighting Championship in the lightweight division. When the UFC, known for its octagon cage fights, was emerging as a serious sports competition, Spencer Fisher was dubbed "the King" during his 17-fight stretch with the UFC, winning “Fight of the Night” three-times.
By his side today is Emily Fisher, who is also a former mixed martial arts fighter and UFC competitor. Emily is Spencer's wife. Together, they own and operate Glory Martial Arts Fitness, a gym in the Great Smoky Mountains of Western North Carolina.
In 2012, Spencer's career as a professional fighter was forced to come to an end following a medical examination. Neurological tests, an electroencephalography, or EEG; it records electrical activity in the brain revealed lesions on Spencer's brain, and a spinal tap showed high levels of the tau protein. The discovery alarmed doctors.
They warned Spencer showed signs of developing chronic traumatic encephalopathy, also known as CTE. CTE is a degenerative brain disease linked to traumatic brain injuries, including concussions and repeated blows to the head. CTE is associated with the development of dementia. It can only be officially diagnosed after a person has died.
But in 2013, Spencer and Emily Fisher received the medical diagnosis and warning, Spencer should never fight again. Spencer, Emily, thank you so much for joining me today.
Spencer Fisher: Thanks for having me.
Christina Brown Fisher: Spencer, how are you feeling today?
Spencer Fisher: Sluggish, a little dizzy, you know, it's a regular thing for me. I have ups and downs a lot, but I feel okay, just a little tired.
Christina Fisher Brown: Walk me through your day. What does a typical day look like and feel like for you?
Spencer Fisher: I get up early in the morning. I go to the gym to teach classes from 9:00 to 10:00, 10:30 sometimes. And then I come back home. I've just started running again and then I go back at 4:30, and then teach classes again until 6:30, and then I come home. Eat, go to bed, get up about 1:00 religiously, every night, every morning and eat and then go back to bed. And I'm up usually two or three times after that and just try to stay (unintelligible).
Christina Brown Fisher: It sounds like routine is really important for you, important to you. Why is that?
Spencer Fisher: Just to keep me focused and balanced. Anything can throw me off, you know? If I have a bad day, not remember someone's name, it could offset me. I have to write down my lessons that I want to teach. I just got done writing down what I'm going to teach this week, and I do it every Sunday, and then on Monday and Wednesday nights, the nights before jujitsu, which is Tuesdays and Thursdays, my wife and I will go through my planner and go over the moves that I plan on doing Tuesdays and Thursdays, and then I kind of wing the basic fundamental classes.
Christina Brown Fisher: Yeah, it would seem to me that teaching fighting, teaching, mixed martial arts in some ways has got to be second nature to you, it's got to be ...
Spencer Fisher: Right.
Christina Brown Fisher: It would come very easily. But ... what you're describing...
Spencer Fisher: It's the only thing I know.
Christina Brown Fisher: I actually want to go back in time, Spencer, and tell me, how were you first introduced to mixed martial arts? Was it even called MMA back then?
Spencer Fisher: It was called No, No Holds Barred back in the day, and I lost my parents at an early age and my grandparents raised me and they wanted to put me in something that I can get this anger out. And they put me in martial arts and I saw the UFC when it first came on and was immediately hooked and I wanted to do that, and was told that I was too small to do it. They didn't have weight classes back then, and so I started karate, then boxing, and then I met a lot of the former champions throughout the years going to seminars, and I met Pat Miletich and Jens Pulver the day after Jens had won the title, and they had invited me out to Iowa, and I just packed up and moved out without a second thought, and the rest is history.
Christina Brown Fisher: Pat Miletich, the Miletich Fighting System produced a lot of, a lot of winners. We'll get to that in a moment. I definitely want to talk about that. I do want to stay a little bit in your childhood. How old were you when you lost your parents?
Spencer Fisher: Oh, 15, I think, 15 and 16, or 14, or 15. One of them, one or the other.
Christina Brown Fisher: And you started, you started martial arts shortly after that. What was it about martial arts that you loved and did for you?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, I wasn't good, I wasn't good at any other sports. And, you know, I was an angry child and like, I had a lot of anger issues and I felt that I was good at fighting, and I liked this contact and I just wanted to prove that I could do. Fight, fight at the highest level, and when I saw UFC, and I saw the Gracie’s do it.
Christina Brown Fisher: The Gracie’s are considered the first family of Brazilian jiu jitsu.
Spencer Fisher: I knew right then, you know, someone that small could do it, I could do it. And then, of course, then they started having weight classes, and I went from every weight class, like going from heavyweight all the way down to lightweight. And I was successful, in all of those weight classes, and then and I make my professional UFC debut at 170 which was the lightest. Well, they, they brought the, I think Sam Stout and I were the first fight back in the lightweight division when they brought it back.
Christina Brown Fisher: And of course, you and Sam Stout would have quite a few bouts.
Spencer Fisher: Yes, we had three of them, yeah.
Christina Brown Fisher: Do you recall when, where you were, what it was about the UFC that made you think, believe that you could make a career out of this?
Spencer Fisher: I did things the wrong way.
Christina Brown Fisher: How so?
Spencer Fisher: Like, I well, like I'd messaged somebody, and I don't know if it was Joe Silva or Joe (unintelligible) back in the day, wanting to know how I get into it, and they said I had to have actual fights. You know, I had to have some kind of background fighting. So, I would literally take a video camera to different dojos, and my friend and I, who was training with me at the time would basically dojo storm. We'd go in and ask if they wanted to spar, and by the end of the class they were telling us to get the hell out of there, you know...
Christina Brown Fisher: (laughter)
Spencer Fisher: You know, they don't, they don't, they didn't want no part of that. So, it kind of, kind of got a bad reputation because, you know, we didn't mean any harm by it, but it was the way it was, you know, it was like we wanted to fight and they were throwing karate kicks. We were throwing Thai kicks, they're like, "get the hell out of here," you know? So now, how much technique is there in kicking someone in the legs? You know, they just, there was just karate and we were doing kickboxing, and we were kind of ahead of our time. And then when I started boxing, my coach happened to be the referee, and a couple of times they were trying to build the Tough Man that, as they were called back then, back then. And then they said, "hey, you know, Spencer will do an Ultimate Fight challenge," you know, no rules. And I started doing them back here in North Carolina. After I won the Tough Man contest, I started doing Ultimate Fight challenges in the ring, you know, with a large audience, and I became a big fish in a little pond. And then I just started going around at different seminars and training, and eventually met Pat and Jens and moved out to Iowa.
Christina Brown Fisher: I do want to talk about that transition but before we get there, tell me about how you and Emily met.
Spencer Fisher: Met her at a party.
Emily Fisher: Hmm.
Spencer Fisher: I don't remember all the details. She has her side of the story. I have another, but...
Christina Brown Fisher: Well, let's hear your side. We'll hear your side first, then we'll compare.
Spencer Fisher: It was something simple, like we, ah, one of my roommates, we had a party one night. She showed up, and she was a country pumpkin, and she got me donuts one time, and we hit [it] off and she became interested in fighting and training. So, we started training and she was still in college at that time, and she just started supporting me, helping me train, training with me. And we would go to the West Carolina University, they had mats out there and we ended up getting our own team out at Western, you know. I don't remember, like, I just know, we just, we hit it off. Great, you know? She was very supportive, and she'd seen her first fight and was hooked.
Christina Brown Fisher: And you had a partner?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, and a partner.
Christina Brown Fisher: You mentioned Gracie jiu jitsu. Tell me about your idols.
Spencer Fisher: Rickson Gracie is my all-time favorite. And luckily, I, you know, I went to a seminar as a kid
where all my friends saw him just absolutely go through, I think it was like a hundred people, like one after another, and were just amazed that the guy could do it. And I actually, to back up something that I left out, I actually took the Gracie Challenge when I was eighteen. I drove from North Carolina, my girlfriend that I had at the time and I, drove from North Carolina to California to fight in the Gracie Challenge that they had out there. They used to have a challenge match, take on all-comers to show that Gracie jiu jitsu was number one. I was going out to meet Rickson and I was under the wrong impression. I thought I was going to go out there and prove myself and they would take me on as one of their team members or, but that wasn't the case. So, I had to learn the hard way, you know, that I needed to learn jujitsu.
Christina Brown Fisher: And, you know, just to edify the audience if you can Spencer, can you explain to me what distinguishes the Gracie's in the field? Not just jujitsu, but really MMA at large, You know, pretend you're talking to someone who has no knowledge of MMA.
Spencer Fisher: Well, the Gracie's are the first ones that that brought Brazilian Gracie jiu jitsu the way that they had learned it from Brazil and the fluidity of being on the ground. And, you know, we in the states had judo and wrestling, but they were fighting off their back. And it didn't matter how big or small you are, you can use leverage to your advantage and, a Royce, I don't think ... he really surprised the world. I mean, I was hooked right away, but when he won his UFC when he fought Dan Severn, when he choked him off his back. You know, and he gave up like 70 or 80-pounds and he triangle choked Dan Severn off his back, you know, and giving up that much weight and size,
Christina Brown Fisher: Dan Severn, the first world-class wrestler in the UFC, who was called “the Beast,” and weighed more than 250-pounds, gets choked out by Royce Gracie who weighs nearly 100-pounds less? And Royce chokes him out with Dan on top of him and Royce is on his back?
Spencer Fisher: No one knew what they were looking at, you know, like, "what is this guy doing?" And it just amazed me. And I was like, "holy smokes, this guy can win off his back." And I was hooked, you know, and the Gracie family for the longest time, I used to walk around, and I would talk with an accent sometimes, you know, like I was totally Gracie, you know, Gracie 100% all the way.
Christina Brown Fisher: And you know what, what's curious to me when you say that, is when you talk about the fact that you were considered, small to be a fighter. And that kind of fits perfectly with the Gracie style, which is that, essentially size doesn't matter. So if you could just speak a little bit more to that as to why that style in particular really resonated with you and then how that ultimately impacted your own fighting style.
Spencer Fisher: Well, I was a striker. I boxed, I boxed a lot and I had a mentor that, that …
Christina Brown Fisher: Take your time.
Spencer Fisher: I had a mentor that ah, that ah ...
Christina Brown Fisher: Take your time.
Spencer Fisher: But I had a boxing coach that I lost two years ago.
Christina Brown Fisher: Of course, of course, and boxing coach Reggie Holland was a two-time Golden Gloves boxing champion. He mentored up and coming, fighters and hundreds of youths. He died in 2020.
Spencer Fisher: Can I give Emily the headset?
Christina Brown Fisher: Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. Take your time. Hey, Emily.
Emily Fisher: Hi.
Christina Brown Fisher: You know what, Emily? I got to hear your side of the story of how you guys met.
Emily Fisher: I was DDing for some of my friends. I was a freshman in college at the time.
Christina Brown Fisher: What's DDing, what's that?
Emily Fisher: Designated Driver?
Christina Brown Fisher: Oh, I should know better.
Emily Fisher: And anyhow, we had gone to this, they took me to this one party. Anyhow, I ended up leaving because it was kind of chaotic and we ended up going to this house party that they knew. And it was Spencer's buddy. And anyhow, we get there and I see Spencer, and, you know, he had a reputation in town because he was the known fighter and had won all the Tough Men. And I remember seeing him and looking at him going, "this is the guy they're talking about, I thought he'd be bigger." And anyhow, we're all hanging out in the kitchen, and he would come up and start hitting on me and he was complimenting my eyes and things like that. So, I started kind of, you know, laughing at him. And anyhow, you know, he ended up passing out somewhere and we ended up leaving the party and I ran into him, I don't know, three or four days later, maybe out in town driving around. And I started heckling him about how he was acting. He's like, he got embarrassed, like, "Please don't tell me what I said." I'm like, "oh, no, you need to know this." So, I was teasing him, and anyhow, I ended up going I was running to the gas station to get some stuff and I asked everybody if anybody wanted anything and he pops up, he wants doughnuts, and I'm like, okay. So, I go in there and I find like a pack of Little Debbie donuts or something and brought it to him. And he's like, "these aren't the right ones, but these are still good." I'm like, he liked the chocolate Hostess I found out.
Christina Brown Fisher: It was love ever since, right?
Emily Fisher: Yeah, so, I won him with doughnuts. He's still a sucker for doughnuts. He's very particular about this doughnut.
Christina Brown Fisher: And then how did you get into MMA? Was it, I mean, did you have any interest in it before?
Emily Fisher: Oh, yeah. I was always interested in boxing. I didn't really, wasn't familiar with martial that, like the MMA fighting, but boxing and wrestling was something I was always interested in. And my senior year in high school, I decided to go out for the wrestling team, and I was the only girl that did it. So, I get out there, you know, did the brutal training to get onto the team spent was like two weeks or so. And I remember I made the team, and I was all stoked and excited about it and I went to my boss at the local department store I worked at and I showed him that I made the team and I was giving him my wrestling schedule and I also was the starting pitcher for our softball team. And he told me he goes, "well, I'm glad, congratulations on making the team. However, I cannot work around your wrestling calendar and your softball," And he's like, "and you don't have a future in wrestling, you have a future in softball." And of course, I graduated high school and never played softball since and got involved in the MMA. So, you know, so I had to quit the team because my dad was the kind of guy it's like, you know, I had to help pay for my car insurance, pay for my gas, you know, making me be financially responsible at a young age. So, still so regret that one.
Christina Brown Fisher: But then you meet Spencer and..
Emily Fisher: Um, hmm, I instantly wanted him to start showing me things. I was like, you know, teach me, you know, kickboxing, and then he started teaching me jiu jitsu and, you know, and I fell in love with it instantly. I love the competitiveness of it and liked the way it was more like human chess as well as explain it with jiu jitsu especially but being able to use leverage in my body and ankles to create the right (unintelligible) for striking the right amount of power. Make sure I was doing it correctly or with jiu jitsu, being able to control someone else on the ground that was bigger than me.
Christina Brown Fisher: I'm curious, though, Emily, how do you go from I really enjoy, fighting, I really enjoy the sport, to I want to compete at a professional level? How did that transition come for you?
Emily Fisher: I don't know, it just did. I remember I was when I turned nineteen is when I had my first amateur boxing match and I wasn't planning on competing. I had gone with Spencer to like a little local Tough Man in Maggie Valley that he had signed up for. And we were with his boxing coaches, Reggie and Walter. And I remember there were some I'd been boxing for maybe three months at this time, and so anyhow, there were some women in the crowd that were calling out, you know, someone to fight them because they were going to fight each other. They were related or friends, I can't remember. And Spencer was like, "well, you should do it." And I'm like, "I don't know." So I remember asking Reggie, I'm like, "well, what do you think?" And he told me, he goes, "now, Emily, he's like, it's up to you, what do you think?" He's like, "but what are you going to regret the next day?" And I was like, okay. So, I decided I was like, alright, I'll regret if I don't try this. So, you know, I signed up and ended up having my first amateur boxing match that night. And I knocked a girl out with a left hook, Spencer filmed it. It kind of looked like the Blair Witch Project with the camera going everywhere. But I think the hardest punch I took in the fight, I'd hit myself at one point because she had put me in a headlock and I was trying to hit her with hooks in the body, and I missed and punched myself in the side of the head. I was like..
Christina Brown Fisher: Ouch. Oh yeah.
Emily Fisher: Oh, yeah. I was like, yeah and after that I was just an adrenaline rush and excitement. I was like, "oh, I like this."
Christina Brown Fisher: So how’s Spencer doing now?
Emily Fisher: He's better. You ready?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah.
Christina Brown Fisher: Thank you. Thank you, Emily.
Spencer Fisher: Okay. Sorry about that. That's a really hard subject for me to talk about, Reggie. He was my mentor and was my best friend. We had a "Mickey" and "Rocky" relationship, so, but he is the one that told me that [if] I didn't get out of here and pursue my dream, that I'd live to regret it. And, you know, either I did it all the way and went for it, or I sat here and waste away, and it would be the only way other than the military to see the world. And that was very important to me, and for him to tell me that, and ever since I made a pro, I had him come out and he would always corner me on my fights, you know? And like, he was a big part of my life.
Christina Brown Fisher: At that stage, is there any discussion, any thought about the danger, the physicality of being a professional fighter?
Spencer Fisher: I didn't really, I really didn't think it would be anything other than superficial. You know, I always heard that term "punch drunk" quite like that mainly was related to boxing or to football, you know, in the later years that came out. But, but no it was like, I don't ever recall, and I'm sure I had maybe several throughout my career, but I don't recall ever being dizzy the day after or having any major headaches until my UFC fight with Hermes Franca. And we can get to that later on. But yeah, so I just picked up and followed Reggie's advice and moved out to Iowa and made a go at it, and I fought at the Tuesday night fights that they had out there and it was successful, won all those. And like I said, I went out there at 225 and they kept telling me, you're too big for this weight class drop weight class. And I happened to move in with Tim Sylvia, Jens Pulver was just moving out, as I moved in Kelly Wiseman, Jason Black, that were all known names, you know. Well, Tim hadn't been wasn't in the big show yet, but ....
Christina Brown Fisher: They’re certainly some of the most successful MMA fighters.
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, yeah, were my teammates, or were my roommates and so like we, I worked at a night club with the guys bouncing and it just worked out that it my schedule and I'd get up in the morning and Jeremy Horn would use me as a dummy, you know.
Christina Brown Fisher: Yeah and Jeremy Horn, a former King of the Cage champion. He fought in the heavyweight and light heavyweight divisions.
Spencer Fisher: I'd go to all the practices, and he would demonstrate the moves on me and eventually invited me to participate in the advanced classes, and I jumped in and it all worked out so.
Christina Brown Fisher: And when did you, you know, do you recall that that, that first bout that that first crack at that UFC cage?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was it was my dream. I had called my family, so, my family that were back here at home, they thought they could watch on TV cause I told them I was going to be on a fight night. So they got a house full of people to watch. But I didn't know there was preliminaries back then and the preliminaries didn't get shown on TV, and I called back home and told my aunt and my great aunt said, "we watched the entire show and you weren't on it." And I'm like, "yeah, I was. And of course, I had a family out there that witnessed it, but it was my dream come true, you know, everything that I ever and I won, you know, so, that was icing on the cake, you know. And they told me I didn't know anything about the guys fighting until like the week of. They just told me, my manager told me I was fighting a (unintelligible) Silva, and I knew who that was and, but I believed in my, my striking skills. My, my teammates were world champions and I was hanging with them. So I knew that anybody they put in front of me was not going to be as hard as my my teammates.
Christina Brown Fisher: And at this point are at Militech?
Spencer Fisher: Militech
Christina Brown Fisher: You are?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah.
Christina Brown Fisher: Yeah, so let's talk about that. The Militech Fighting System, the camp is considered one of the most successful in MMA history and has produced several world champions. Patrick Militech retired MMA fighter. He was a former sports commentator.
Spencer Fisher: Right.
Christina Brown Fisher: The Militech Fighting System, as I said, will produce or has produced a number of world champions. This was your group.
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, we were the number one team in the world. And when I when I went there, we had every belt in the UFC except for the 205 belt. And then Jeremy Horn owned that and the other organization, so King of the Cage, so 205.
Christina Brown Fisher: But let's talk about that, what did it mean to be training in this environment under that system?
Spencer Fisher: I was more nervous for Monday and Wednesday night than I was for any of my fights. You know, we had Rich Franklin in there, Jens Pulver and Jason Black, Pat Militech, Matt Hughes.
Christina Brown Fisher: Rich Franklin is a three-time MMA world champion, Pulver, also known as “Lil’ Evil” was an UFC Lightweight Champion, an undefeated kickboxer and boxer, in Pride, the Japanese MMA promotion company. Jason Black, affectionately known as “The Black Legion,” another veteran of Pride, UFC and King of the Cage and of course, Matt Hughes, who is a former two-time UFC welterweight champion. He’s been inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame and is considered one of the greatest MMA fighters. These were the fighters you came up with? All of you training under Militech?
Spencer Fisher: I mean, you name it, the top of the top was in that gym. And to go out there and spar with those guys and, and make it through a night, you know, like I had my nose pushed across my face, you know. I'd call Emily, you know, but the first week I was there and, like, "I don't belong here." And she'd say, "give it one more week," and then the second week would go by. And I'd say, still, you know, these guys would kick my ass.
Christina Brown Fisher: Why did you believe that you didn't belong there? Because at this point, you'd had a few fights.
Spencer Fisher: I had several fights by this time, but like the intensity of the training, you know, you know, five, five-minute rounds now, and it wasn't just hitting pads or lightly sparring. It was a fight. You know, we were taking each other down. And if you got put on the ground, you get put on your back you're getting beat up. I mean, it was no holding back. You know, if you had a fight coming up, you needed to show your, your worth there. And we had, you know, at Pat’s place, we had hundreds of people that would, you know, wanted to be part of the team and they had to get through us. You know, they had to get through a Monday, or Wednesday night to show that they were capable of sticking around. And after like the eighth week I was there, I remember Jens Pulver telling me, "so you're gonna stick it out?" And I'm like, "yeah, I'm here for good." So, then the beatings stopped as bad as they were, and eventually I started giving them, the beatings myself, you know, and I became one of Pat’s “doormen,” you know, so to speak. You know when you came in the door you had to go through me and Jens, you know, if you are a smaller guy. If you're a guy you had to get through Rory or some of the other guys, you know. But we were kind of gate holders for that, gatekeepers, for that gym.
Christina Brown Fisher: Are there any, you know, looking back now, Spencer, are there any concerns or regrets about that particular style of training?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, yeah, yes and no, like, we had a lot of people that now do it as train smarter, not harder, but, and, we didn't know about that other way. We didn't know there was any other way other than to fight. The only way you get good at fighting is fight. And so like a Monday and Wednesday night, you know, you, you were in for a fight, so.
Christina Brown Fisher: What, if anything, could be different? Because when you say train smarter, not harder, how, how are you training smarter? What changes about the training?
Spencer Fisher: Well, I wasn't familiar with the Dutch style of kickboxing, you know then, and to where they you can get nasty and beat each other up or you can hit each other's gloves as opposed to hit each other's head, you know. And you could hit them full out, you know the combinations, sometimes we preset the combinations, so you know what's coming. And you can hit each other’s gloves. Now you're getting wrecked with your leg kicks you know we wear chin pads and gloves, but as opposed to beating each other in the head we'd hit each other’s gloves, you know, and then fire back in combination as opposed to just rock 'em, sock 'em, in-and-out and just taking shots, getting continuously hit to the head so.
Christina Brown Fisher: The UFC at that time, and some might even argue still today, but definitely at that time, you know, it wasn't necessarily kind of the household name that it is today; it was a very wild, wild west, and I'm just curious if you can explain to me what that was like, if you can kind of paint the picture for what it was like to be a fighter trying to get on the ticket.
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, well, first you first of all, you had to make it onto the team. You know, it was like you had to be accepted as one of theirs, as one of Pat's guys. In order to do that, you had to, you had to fight, you know, you had to be able to fight, and, and just because you've got a broken nose or black eye or a cut lip, or you know, broke your hand, that didn't matter. You know, like you had to stick it out, you know, if you wanted to fight that in the UFC, you know, these guys are not going to go easy on you. They're going to come at you hard. So, our way of fighting was in your face and put the pressure, beat you up before you beat me up. And it was that way every Monday and Wednesday night, you know, so sometimes it was three, 12-minute rounds, you know, in groups of three, or three for like groups of three and three, five minute rounds, you know, So like, you're sorry, you do groups of three in like you do two 5-minute rounds, and then you'd set out and then you'd come back and do it again, so they alternate us out. But it was it was UFC rules, you know, except for elbows. Unless you had elbow pads on, then you could elbow a guy. But, but I recall times, that I don't know how many times I looked around and see guys get drug off the mat unconscious, you know, so only to try to bounce back up and get back in right after they were knocked out, to try to show how tough they were.
Christina Brown Fisher: And what about you, Spencer? I mean, you had a lot of injuries, and we're obviously here to talk about brain injury, but you had a lot of other physical injuries. Can you walk me through some of those other orthopedic injuries that you suffered?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, um, I, um, how many injuries? I've had several lacerations. I cracked my broke my leg in one of my fights. I broke my hand. Several cuts, lacerations. I have a cadaver bone in my neck. I got buckle in my right eye. I had detached retina, and they told me if I wanted to continue fighting that I would have to have a buckle put on my eye oh, and I had a hip replacement as well.
Christina Brown Fisher: Do you recall, Spencer, because we talked you spoke a little while ago about not necessarily feeling dizzy after a fight, but at least in the early stages of your career, do you recall which fight it was where you, you definitely got rocked, and you knew something was off?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, whenever I was in title contention to fight Sean Sherk, I had to fight Hermes Franca and whoever the winner of that, Sean Sherk at the time, who was the champion. I fought Hermes Franca and he TKO me and like, it was the first time that I knew that something was wrong. Like it was almost like a movie. The fact that I don't remember getting out of the ring, I don't remember showering. I don't remember any of that. I remember coming to, in the stands watching the main event, and I told my wife, "I have to fight, what am I doing?" She said, "you already fought?" And I'm like, "no, no, no, I got to fight," and arguing with her. And she was pulling my arm to sit down because I was so convinced that I had a fight. Nothing made sense. And, I, she said, “no, you were you were knocked out." And I'm like “what he knocked me out?" And she said, "you didn't go off your feet, but you were stopped." And I still didn't realize how bad it was until the next day when I had to fly home. I tried to walk a straight line and at the airport and I couldn't. So and I haven't been ever since then.
Christina Brown Fisher: What year was that?
Spencer Fisher: 2007
Christina Brown Fisher: 2007 did you notice other changes besides in the immediate aftermath of that fight? Did you notice other changes after 2007, after that fight?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, I had started having impulse controls, saying things, my temper, like I would explode over things, things. My attitude started changing. I started getting emotional, but other times I had the cold stone faced, but then certain things would upset me that shouldn't upset me. And I started becoming have an addictive personality, you know, that was not in me. And I just did a lot of stupid things that I normally wouldn't do.
Christina Brown Fisher: Like what?
Spencer Fisher: Like I got, I got hooked on pain pills at one point, like I had a rotator, I had a problem with
my shoulder and a teammate said, "hey, take, take two of these." And I, didn't even know what they were. And he just said, "it's like, it's like Tylenol, you know," and when I say that I'm not trying to say I was naive. I knew it was pain medication. But but when I took them it gave me energy and like, I didn't hurt and I'm like, holy shit, you know, I can, I can perform. I felt that I was running just as fast. And then it got to be bad that I was eating a lot of them. And I started I had the best fight of my career, and I was eating, taking those. I had a prescription for them and, but I was abusing them, you know?
Christina Brown Fisher: Did you notice how it was impacting your relationship with other people, or did this feel very internal?
Spencer Fisher: No, I realized that I was doing stupid things or, and I would say things that that were hurtful and not realize I was, you know, like if I did say something, I, I'd blow it off, you know, like they're in the wrong. And then after a while, Reggie, my boxing coach, made a trip to Iowa and I wouldn't, I wouldn't answer his phone calls. And he came up and sat me down and talked to me. It was like, "hey, we need to look at what this is doing to your pocketbook." And I'm like "what?" And when I realized the problem I had, that was, yeah, I stopped, you know, and that was just into that. But it took him driving from North Carolina to Iowa to to get me out, get me straight again.
Christina Brown Fisher: So what did he mean by how it was affecting your pocketbook?
Spencer Fisher: Oh, I was spending them. I was, I was getting a prescription for them. And then when my prescriptions were out I was buying them from friends, it not like I was actually buying them. And then but like, I never, never did. I only ate them, I never did anything else, you know, like, but I would eat a lot, you know, and I felt like it gave me energy, you know, to where a lot of people might fall out, pass out slobber or drool, like not me it hyped me up. And it had the opposite effect on me as it does a lot of people. But the biggest thing was I wasn't hurting, you know, like I had a torn shoulder, and I could work right through it. And I felt faster than I ever had been in the past, and I put on, like I said, the performance of my life, you know, while I was taking Vicodin.
Christina Brown Fisher: This is 2007, and this is when you first notice how a fight is affecting you cognitively. What happens next? Because you're still fighting?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, I'm still fighting. And then I started fighting for the wrong reasons, you know? You know, I was down to fight anybody. But then it became about fighting to provide for my family, you know, like, everything changed once Emily and I had our kids, you know, that, you know, like, if I don't fight, you know, I was the main breadwinner, you know, in our relationship. So I had to fight, so everything became different, you know, like I if I had a cracked hand, if I had to cut in my eye I had to fight through it, because that's the way I fed my family, you know. So, I just had to fight through it and that's what that's what it was.
Christina Brown Fisher: And explain to me, Spencer, and our audience, because I don't think a lot of people understand, you know, the pay scale, right, in the UFC. I think it's in the NBA, NFL, NHL --- and, MLB, they received about fifty-percent or more of the revenues, but MMA fighters, in contrast, get paid..
Spencer Fisher: No.
Christina Brown Fisher: Yeah, so...
Spencer Fisher: Nothing.
Christina Brown Fisher: So, please explain, explain to me what it meant to be a UFC fighter and --- how do you get paid?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, so back then when I was fighting, you get, you get, so it's the same as it is today. You get your show money and then you get that same equal amount if you win. So, it doubles if you win. And then we made a lot of our money off of sponsorships, you know, and this is when the UFC still had sponsorships and I made more money off my sponsorships than I was making off the actual fight. So that was that was a huge deal, you know, like to fight and to win. And once I started realizing I was having some difficulties, you know, it was I was also getting older and I had to, you know, what else was I going to do? Because, like, this is the only thing I've ever done, really. You know, I've had small jobs but nothing significant, but like, I don't have any real skills to do something else, you know, again, now with my head injury, like, I can't tell you what I did yesterday, you know, so it's my long term memory is good. Like I have, no, I can remember my very first phone number. What's crazy is I can remember the Unsolved Mysteries phone number, and I don't know why that stuck with me all this time, but I can remember that. But I have to ask her or somebody else sometimes, like what is my phone number, but some of these suddenly sthese things started coming up, and then you get to the point that you're like, "do I really want to fight anymore?" You know, these things were happening to me, but it's all I knew and it's all I know. And so, the fighting was like I had to fight, you know? But the love for it wasn't like it was when it first started, you know?
Christina Brown Fisher: So, by 2012, you know, five years now after that, that bout where you don't even remember the fight, 2012, you're at a routine medical examination, correct? A routine pre-fight medical examination. Tell me what happens.
Spencer Fisher: I don't remember exactly. I just remember I started missing, like, dates and stuff. Like what day it was, what floor we were on, like simple things, you know, like things I never paid attention to.
Christina Brown Fisher: Do you remember which fight this was for?
Spencer Fisher: No, I don't. --- whatever my last one on contract was. Oh, Yves Edwards --- Yves Edwards was who I supposed to fight.
Christina Brown Fisher: And so, you're supposed to fight Edwards, but as part of a routine pre-fight medical examination, you go see UFC medical doctors, correct?
Spencer Fisher: I seen a neurologist.
Christina Brown Fisher: What prompted seeing the neurologist? Because was this, was this normal that you would see a neurologist before every fight?
Spencer Fisher: No, no, but when you get to be a certain, we call it the "old man's test," you know, like when you hit a certain age.
Spencer Fisher: I was 36 and had to do the "old man test" and because of the EEG test that came out false positive or false negative or whatever it was, so, I had to see a neurologist. I just started missing too many of these questions, you know, simple questions that I, that I never, ever thought that I'd have a problem with remembering, you know, like, but I, I had no clue what day it was, what the date was. What floor we were on, I didn't know the doctor's name, like silly, like just simple things that we take for granted every day, like, I just had no clue.
Christina Brown Fisher: Do you remember what that felt like for you?
Spencer Fisher: Embarrassed, I was embarrassed, and I didn't know what dementia was. I didn't know what any of these terms were. You know, I thought, I thought dementia was Parkinson's when you shake. Now, I'm aware of these things, but I wasn't then and I was like, "I don't, I don't do any of that stuff that you're talking about." You know, I was trying to argue because I had to support my family. You know, like I told my wife, I said, "if I don't fight, how are we going to survive?" You know, and even told her, like, because they were going to send me to a different neurologist. I don't remember how many I saw. I saw quite a few. And I told her, I said, "if you don't help me pass this test, you know, then we don't eat. You know, we can't survive." And she was on board at first, and then I started missing too many of them and she wouldn't help me out anymore. And (unintelligible) at the doctor's office. And the doctor kind of tricked me and tried to tell me to walk down the highway and hop on one leg back. But I swerved or stumbled or something. I don't remember what exactly it was, but he told me that my balance was shotty, just couldn't pass me. So that led to me dealing with the fact that I had possibly CTE, you know, so.
Christina Brown Fisher: So I just want to I just, I guess, I just want to get a little understanding here. You're seen by a neurologist, and you don't pass the neurology exam, this "old man test" that you have to take prior to a fight once you turn thirty-six, and when you receive the news, your instinct is to find a neurologist that will pass you?
Spencer Fisher: Right, right, and I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but like I was asked by somebody like, "do you want to fucking fight or not?" And I said, "of course, you know, of course I do." And like, all right, "well, we're going to send you to this neurologist and they're going to pass you." And, and I had every expectation of passing, you know, and but that was whenever Emily, she was helping me, and then I was just missing too many that she wouldn't help me anymore. And then, like, she had been documenting stuff that I was doing at home, you know, like put stuff up there in the wrong place. Not paying attention to where I was putting things and it all came out. You know, she couldn't, she couldn't deal with the damages, the damage that was done already and wasn't going to hide it, you know, looking out for my well-being.
Christina Brown Fisher: How do you feel about your 36-year-old self being told that your brain is damaged, and you still want to fight, you still want to get in that cage?
Spencer Fisher: Well, it was coming off like a loss to Sam Stout, which was a very close fight and I was going to retire after that, and then I got the bonus for Fight of the Night, for that fight again, and they offered me a fight with Yves, and like I said it's going to be a great stand up war, and that's what I was looking for, and I started training really hard. I brought in training partners from out of town, (unintelligible) brought old training partners back in and I was hungry again, you know, because no one wants to go out on a loss, you know.
Christina Brown Fisher: I see.
Spencer Fisher: And I was training, I was training just as hard as I ever trained for a fight, got my weight down, you know, like way lower than it normally was, you know, for the past, other in the past couple of fights, I was hungry, again, motivated, and it was devastating to have someone tell me that I, that was it. That it wasn't just like I couldn't fight anymore, that, that I wasn't, the same person that I used to be before fighting.
Christina Brown Fisher: I think that that's probably one of the most powerful takeaways Spencer is, and it's the reason why I do this, this show, to be honest with you, is that when our identity is so closely tied to what it is that we do whatever it is, and then that's stripped from you how do you define who you are? How do you take the next step? You're saying that, you know, when they tell you that you're not fit to fight for you, you're also hearing that you're not fit to be you. You're not fit to be Spencer, because Spencer is a fighter, and if you're not a fighter, then who or what are you?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, who are you, exactly. And a lot of people say that they're like, "you know, you're still more than that, you know, you're you're this person, or this person, you're a father." But that didn't mean anything to me. You know, my identification was, you know, the ultimate fighter, you know the guy, Dana said one time in an interview that, yeah, it hurts me to watch, but he said, "whenever I think of the word 'fighter,' I think it's Spencer Fisher." And that will stay with me for rest my life, because to have the president of the UFC say that about you, you know, there's nothing better than that in my opinion. You know like because I really think highly of Dana, like, he really put me in spots, you know. I did it myself. But he, you know, he's the one that ultimately had the final say. I get this fight, make sense, let's do this fight. And like, he was nothing but good to me the whole time that I was part of the organization. But that's who I was, you know, I was the ultimate fighter. And I was a small-town guy that that made it, you know, that lived my dream and now you're telling me that not only can I not, not fight anymore, but you're taking away that identity altogether. And like, I still, I still wasn't accepting the fact that I had long term damage. And then I took my daughter for a checkup one time, and I got her to the front counter because Emily usually does this stuff. But I took her to the front desk and they said, "baby's name and date of birth." And I looked right at her, and I started crying because I couldn't tell you her name or her date of birth or anything. And I just start calling my wife and like, "hey," and then it came back to me like, November 7 (unintelligible) and it came back to me. But like, I'm like, holy shit, I really have some issues and it just start building from there and like, I stumble, you know, when I walk up like now over the years I can really tell the difference, and the person that I am now to the person I was like, not only is my physical ability changing, my of my overall overall way of life is is completely different. You know, like things like I watch cartoons with my kids and I'll cry over that, you know, and then like I'm supposed to take mood stabilizers and memory medicine and all these things, but it makes me feel like I have no empathy when I do take them and I then when I don't take them, I'm over erratic, you know? So, like, I feel medicated all the time. I feel like I have to be medicated in order to function and I hate it. I absolutely hate it and I have the absolute lows of lows before. And like, I can't, I can't remember my students’ names, and now, I know it's bad. Like, you know, you don't think much of it until you're in the spot or trying to have to do a presentation or talk or show something. And I completely go blank, you know, and I have to go over to my sheet and look at my sheet. And I thank God all my students are aware now, but here recently I've been having these episodes that I have been get very sick or cold sweats or break out in cold sweats almost pass out, but I projectile puke, you know, and the doctors, they thought it was liver related. And now they're ruling all that out and telling they're trying to start lean more towards my brain injury that it's all related to the brain injury, which yeah, I'm forty-six now, and like, but I can only imagine five more years from now. You know, the quality of life I want to have, and for my, my daughter is five years old, you know, like I want to be around mentally and physically to be around for her when she graduates high school, and these things are scary because my way of life is is like shit so...
Christina Brown Fisher: You mentioned you mentioned Dana White, president of the UFC, and you say that you feel as though he's done right by you. Do you feel like he's doing right by fighters in general?
Spencer Fisher: No, no, I, I can't blame that on him, like they were paying, they were paying me money to do appearances whenever I first found this out.
Christina Brown Fisher: So, this is after, so this is after 2012, 2013?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, whenever, when I was diagnosed, they kept me on the, on the UFC to do appearances and stuff and we wrote to them because I only get a couple of them and I was worried about it because I always want to earn my worth, you know, like I want to work for what I'm getting. And we sent several emails out, you know, saying, "hey, you know, put me to work, let me do something, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I know fighting, you know, that's the one thing." I don't care how injured I am I can look at you anywhere across the room and tell you your left heel needs to be off the floor. I mean, when it comes to that, I know that's, that's who I am, that's what I know. And I feel like I could, I could be useful in some sense of that if that if at all possible. But they, when they sold the company, that was that was the end of the covering, anything, you know medical payments or anything, and I haven't heard a word from Dana since so.
Christina Brown Fisher: When you look back on that period of time, because you're saying roughly 2012, 2013, that's when you're going through these series of medical evaluations and, a definitive determination that fighting is no longer an option for you, and then from 2013 to roughly 2017, you remain on the UFC payroll, and, and you're basically an ambassador, right, for the UFC? The idea is that you're to promote the sport.
Spencer Fisher: Right.
Christina Brown Fisher: Looking back on that --- do you see that support, that financial support as doing right by you? Do you see that financial support as a wink and a nod to please don't discuss what the sport has done to you?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, I, you know that, yeah, I think now, looking back on it, unfortunately, it was kind of, you know, just keep your mouth shut you know in a way. Let's not make this a big deal. And then we had talked to the lawyer one night on our actual anniversary, and we were out in Vegas for the fights, and we discussed it would work because I had one of my teammates that was under same contract kind of stipulations I was. I'm not going to name any names, but he told me to check my walking papers that they're selling the company. And we specifically brought that up in the meeting that we had. And they were like, "no, that's just hearsay." And I believe I don't remember how short-lived time after that they sold the company and we're like, "what now?" And they said, "we're going to honor your contract and ‘til it runs out and then you're on your own." You know, and that was the most disheartening thing to me because I felt that I'd been one of their top guys, you know, like I, I was a UFC guy, you know, I felt that I'd done more than enough, you know, like blood, sweat and tears, you know, and I mean that in every sense.
Christina Brown Fisher: You helped to build UFC to what it is today.
Spencer Fisher: Right, right, I put on some great fights, and I always strive to put the best fights on in a win, lose or draw. I try to give my all, you know, and, and I and I knew the type of fighter I was. I always wanted to go out with my shield. I didn't want to lose by decision. I wanted to know if you're going to beat me, beat me. You know, that was the type of fighter I was. And I think a lot of the fans enjoyed my fights because of that reason, you know, because I left it all out there. And I want honestly now know that I left a piece of myself there, you know, a lot of a lot of myself there, and now it doesn't just affect me, but affects my entire family.
Christina Brown Fisher: What sort of therapy support, what sort of things have you been doing to try to kind of just stem the inevitability, I guess, of this?
Spencer Fisher: Well, I have a bunch, I have a couple of students --- I always call them my hippie friends, but my students, they're, are, always mushrooms, like. --- The mind --- what is it called.
Christina Brown Fisher: Psychedelics?
Spencer Fisher: But I have one of my old friends --- he's was sending me a psilocybin gummies that I felt that were actually helping me quite a bit, but like, I haven't taken those in a while, but everybody around me said that I seem more upbeat and more positive while I was taking them, so I need to take those more, but I just try to live every day, but like I try to take all of the vitamins I can now.
Christina Brown Fisher: So it's nutrition and exercise?
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, well, yeah, well, the exercise is something I'm getting back to because I've been very slack on that for the past two years and put on a lot of weight, especially after my hip replacement. And so I had that, but now I've been, I just ran three miles the other day, so I'm getting back on track, trying to get back to it and rolling again. And then one of my former instructors, genius guy, he made this game and it's called Play Attention. And you play it with your brain. So like, I will I try it, if he ever watches or listens to this show, "he needs to be doing more," but it reads my brainwaves. And so I put this wristband on, I look at the screen and if my attention if I can focus on that thing, I'll collect, stop, or I'll build stuff with just my brain. And, and it shows my test results at the end of the game. And I can go back and look through all my tests and see how far I've gone. But my tests are lower, higher, and I can see how it's helped me in the way that I've also been able to add more classes to my, to my gym, to my work. You know, like, I can just tell, like when I do well in this test and and stay active with them that I'm able to take more on at my gym you know which is which is overall is really good, just I don't stay consistent anymore as much as I should on the game you know so but like I think I need something more to stimulate me but I think one thing that's helped me out is playing guitar. So I'm not great at it, but I really enjoy it.
Christina Brown Fisher: And what about the gym? Do you find yourself warning, cautioning some of the people at your gym who maybe are looking at you and your career and hoping that they too might see UFC glory? What do you say to the next generation of potential fighters?
Spencer Fisher: I've had a horrible experience with that like of course being, you know, I was very, I wasn't very open minded to open this gym back up. You know, we're a small town, but I, it's basically basically nine to five people, and of course, you're gonna get the guys who want to fight, and I try to push them away from it and they see what I go through.
Christina Brown Fisher: What do you tell them?
Spencer Fisher: I tell them, you know, well they see what I go through, they see me vomiting, they see me, like having to fall, like, sometimes I have to lay down. They see me break out in cold sweats. They see dizziness, backing into things and not being aware of my surroundings. And like, I tell them, like, this is all from fighting every day. Every bit of this is from getting hit in the head. And I had one student that was doing well and yeah, I have a three of them that are no matter what I say, they're going to pursue the fighting. Just like if I was younger and someone told me this, "well, you're one in a million." Like what's the chance of that happening to me? So, I went to a fight and he goy me to corner him, and he got knocked out worse than I've seen in years. And he ended up just he just lost bowel control. They he couldn't remember, he's had three brain bleeds, vomited everywhere, could not keep it together, was telling wild stories. And now they have this boxing event coming up and hee told me he's going to do it again. "I'm like, I can't, I can't support you in that" And he's like, "well, then I'll quit," I'm like, "well you have to do what you have to do, but I can't I can't support you with that." And he keeps telling me, "one more coach, just one more, you know, I'll do it for you," and I'm like, "no don't do it for me, because that's selfish and I don't want you doing it." And then I have another student who does have promise and this and this career, but I told him that I could not take him there. I can't consciously take him to the next level, and I sent him to another gym because I just don't want to be, I don't want to be responsible for him.
Christina Brown Fisher: Well, that's really that's really a powerful thing to, say and do, to say no to a fighter, to an aspiring fighter. Do you wish in some way that you had someone in your corner telling you no, to stop?
Spencer Fisher: I did, I did, I did, but I didn't listen, also, you know, my boxing coach Reggie told me "it's time, you know, it's time to walk away." And now, in my last fight, he said before he walked out, he said, "this is your last fight. Go out and fight like it's your last fight." And I, like I lost but I felt that it was my better performance I had two years prior to that and he told me it was time to move on to the next chapter in my life, and I had planned on doing that, and then I got the call from the UFC saying, "hey, we got this fight for you. We know it's going to be a stand-up fight, you know, or, you know, this will be a great fight for you." And I was 100-percent down for doing it and I was motivated because you know Yves scared me. You know, like, those type of fights really got me motivated and really pushed me to train and started eating better and running and doing everything I was supposed to do like I was when I first started.
Christina Brown Fisher: I saw a video with you and Rickson Gracie.
Spencer Fisher: Yeah. Yeah.
Christina Brown Fisher: Tell me about how did that how did that come? I mean, that had to be amazing for you.
Spencer Fisher: Yeah, like, I don't know all the answers to that. My wife kept telling me, "you need to get in shape, you know, you need to get in shape," and, and I was like, "what is she talking about?" And like, I had a hip replacement, and then I needed to get COVID tests, and I'm fine. What are you talking about? And she wouldn't tell me what this was about. And then, like, I was going to go out to California with one my students and I because he's a big jiu jitsu player and he's pretty good, and she's like, "well, while you're out there, just to let you know, you're going to train with Rickson." and now was like, what? You know, I'm like, I can't believe it, and that was my dream come true. You know, like he, in my opinion, is what a martial artist should be in every sense of the way, like the way he lives his life. I mean, I don't know the guy on a personal level, but from everything I've ever watched him, I've never heard anybody speak of negative and he's never been beat. And I could like (unintelligible) or something like, and I tell people all the time, if someone would dispute that record that they would come for it and no one's ever came forward. So, like, he is like the greatest of all time, in my opinion, and it was a dream come true.
Spencer Fisher: I just got I just got a message from him the other day.
Christina Brown Fisher: You went from being a teen who idolized this man to 20, 30 years later, you're rolling on the mats with him?
Spencer Fisher: It was amazing, yeah, and he showed me just how little I know, you know? But the great thing about him is not only does he teach you, yeah, about fighting, but he also gives you inspirational quotes about life. And, and it doesn't matter my disability or whatever you want to call this, you know that there's ways to work around it and still live, lead a meaningful life you know? And like, the man is just amazing. Like, I'm a little schoolgirl when it comes to Rickson. So my daughter always jokes with me, "you're just mad because he's not your dad."
Christina Brown Fisher: Well, Spencer, thank you. Thank you so much for your time and and just sharing your story.
Spencer Fisher: I apologize for earlier, like there's certain things like as I've gotten older, I'm a really
emotional person now and like, good or bad, I don't know which one it is but like I, I'm just if I had to tell anybody that's going to continue to fight or that's your dream to make sure that they have a supportive family and have a background and to know when it's time to quit and walk away. So, and I hope that my message gets out to somebody that maybe they might be on the fence about doing this or going back to school or doing something else. I would say definitely do something, do something else. I mean, I don't know if I would change anything because of the circumstances. I got to see the world and meet people I'd never meet and made relationships that otherwise I never would have been able to have, and I wouldn't change that for the world. So just hopeful, that they know what it said to walk away.
Christina Brown Fisher: Thank you, Spencer.
Spencer Fisher: Thank you.