After IV

We all want to live healthy, fulfilling lives. But how do you actually do that? This week, Dr. Louis Tay from Purdue University's Department of Psychological Sciences shares his expertise on well-being and how to live a life built on a foundation of loving God and having godly loves.

What’s Hindering My Well-Being?
  • Quick happiness/low satisfaction activities (e.g., social media, addictive behaviors)
  • Loneliness and superficial relationships
  • Over-reliance on convenience 
  • Focus on self
  • Excessive pursuit of wealth
How Can I Promote My Well-Being?
  • Maintaining a few close, meaningful relationships
  • Practice prosocial giving and contentment
  • Focus outside of self
  • Practice mindfulness/meditation (e.g., Lectio Divina)
  • Invest in experiences, not material purchases
  • Exercise regularly
  • Get the sleep you need
  • Improved nutrition
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Creators & Guests

Host
Jon Steele
Jon Steele, a 2011 InterVarsity alumnus from Minnesota State Mankato, lives in Mankato, MN with his wife Kaitlynn and their two daughters. He’s been on staff with InterVarsity since 2012 and has been hosting After IV since its debut in 2020. He is also the producer and primary editor for the podcast. Jon enjoys gaming, reading, and leading worship at his church.
Guest
Dr. Louis Tay
Dr. Louis Tay is a professor in Purdue University's Department of Psychological Sciences and an expert in the field of Well-Being and Optimal Functioning.

What is After IV?

Hey, InterVarsity alumni! This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition you’re making and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks and months. We’re here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying "Yes!" to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

After IV
Feeling Good/Doing Good: Expertise on Well-Being and Optimal Functioning
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your InterVarsity chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hey there, welcome to After IV, the podcast for InterVarsity alumni. I'm your host, Jon Steele. If this is your first time joining. Wow, I am super glad you made it today. Welcome to the show. Let's jump right in. Today's guest is going to help us answer one of those questions that everyone is asking and really has been asking since basically the beginning. And that's how do I live my life well and what does it mean to have a fulfilling life? Well, today we're joined by Dr. Louis Tay, a professor in the Department of psychological sciences at Purdue University. He's an expert in the area of well-being or optimal functioning. And this area of study seeks to answer those questions related to living well and finding fulfillment. And Dr. Tay is joining us for this episode to help us better understand and cultivate well-being in our own lives. And the ideas he's going to share with us have the potential to greatly benefit your day to day life and your relationship with Jesus and others if implemented consistently. So let's dive right in. Here's Dr. Tay. And this one's for you, alumni.

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Hello, Dr. Tay, welcome to the podcast.

Louis Tay  1:45  
Thank you. I appreciate you having me.

Jon Steele  1:47  
I'm really glad that you're here. I wonder for the sake of our conversation. May I call you Louis?

Louis Tay  1:52  
Yes, of course.

Jon Steele  1:54  
Thank you. Thank you. Louis, I have to know, how's Indiana? 

Louis Tay
It's great! 

Jon Steele
I'm from Indiana originally. 

Louis Tay
Oh, I didn’t know that.

Jon Steele
Yes, yes, I'm from Warsaw not too far from where you are. And it's always nice to get to connect with someone on the podcast who's from the area, it almost feels like a vicarious visit home in some way. That's awesome. Well, Louis, I'm really glad that you're here today. Before we jump into our conversation around well-being Would you just give us a really quick introduction?

Louis Tay  2:24  
Yeah, sure. So I grew up in Singapore, pursued a PhD in organizational psychology, ended up working a lot on the topic of well-being and somehow ended up here in the middle of Indiana, amidst the cornfields. God works in mysterious ways. So I've been a professor here at Purdue for 10 years now. I love my job, I get to teach about well-being, and also research well-being too.

Jon Steele  2:58  
So cool. I'm really looking forward to getting to, to dig into this wealth of knowledge, this many years of your own education and your own research and, and teaching others around the idea of well-being. So Louis, I think, when we hear the term well-being it feels like something that you think you know, or at least that I think I know what that is, but then I might have trouble actually putting it into words. And I do remember from my days of psych research, that it is always crucial to have an operational definition when you're trying to when you're trying to measure or explain something. So for all of our sakes, can you just help us continue to develop a working definition of what well-being is? What do you mean, when you talk about well-being?

Louis Tay  3:41  
Yeah, I think a lot of people think of well, being colloquially as you know, feeling good, okay. That's certainly a very important component. But I think that's also a perhaps a very narrow version of it. One broader way of thinking about well-being is really optimal functioning, okay? So think about it as two aspects, you know, one in a classical Aristotelian sense of virtue or excellence. So doing good if I were to kind of rephrase that, not only doing good, but also feeling good as well, in our day and age where we are more focused on emotions, you know, rightly so the sense of feeling good. So I think it may still be a little bit abstract. But you know, one way of anchoring it is to kind of think about the different life domains like health, relationships, family finances, are you able to flourish in terms of doing good and feeling good about each of these life domains? And of course, as a Christian too, I think there's a deeper and more profound sense of what well-being is. I personally believe that it's really about loving God, and having gotten the loves. We know the great commandment loving God and loving others. Yes. And so God often has, amazingly how humble our Lord is, has others on his mind. And I think that that is the posture that we would have to be thinking about others, and not merely ourselves, but at the same time be able to also take care of ourselves. It's not yes at the expense of ourselves or the neglect of ourselves, because we need to love others as we love ourselves. Yes. So I think I think there is a self care involved, but I think there is going to be a predominant focus on others, and how you can love others well, and how you can love the Lord well through through that. I mean, it is a perennial question for human beings, anybody who has lived for any amount of time asks the question, how do I live my life? Well? And what does it mean to have a fulfilling life? Right? So that's one of the core questions that we have. And of course, as Christians, you know, the Bible answers it in a specific way. But many people are pursuing many different ways of achieving that, whether they acknowledge it explicitly, or it's just implicit in what they do.

Jon Steele  6:14  
That's a really helpful kind of starting place for us as we then move into what I'm hoping will be even more practical tools and understanding for our alumni listeners. And so for the rest of our time, I'd really like to start digging into well-being from a few different perspectives. But I'm wondering, based on the research that you're familiar with, and that you're doing yourself, what are some of the biggest factors that you're seeing at play, that today are actually hindering people's well-being?

Louis Tay  6:45  
So I think that just from a prevalence standpoint, and also kind of what I see observe in the Christian church, I think one of the issues from the negative side is really kind of dealing with issues of perhaps addictions. Sometimes we think, Oh, addictions, it's you know, pornography, alcohol and gambling. But it can even be more subtle, like social media, yes, even more positive like work, I think they promise quick happiness. But the funny thing is that they rob us of ultimate satisfaction, because you spend so much of your energies efforts and time to, quote unquote, get the dopamine fix, but then that quickly fades. And so you kind of get back on a treadmill, and you keep doing the same thing, but you're in the same place. So I think that's perhaps one of the things that I personally, have observed. And I think, from the research standpoint, there's been a lot of work, looking at developing deep and meaningful relationships. Okay, I think one of the challenges now in society is that we often close superficial relationships. And we're not able to actually build and maintain these deeper relationships. In fact, it's been said that loneliness is now one of the big biggest epidemics and in the UK, they actually have a minister for loneliness, to address this issue. 

Jon Steele
Really? Wow.

Louis Tay
Yes. And a lot of that is occurring in young individuals. And so perhaps many of your listeners will relate to that. And so I think that's another challenging area. Because even if you think about, you know, psychological needs relationships is really poor. But I think one of the challenges that we have is that we're living in a culture that values convenience, and values, the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want. And relationships often hinder that. You and a good friend, you guys are deciding, you know, hey, what do we want to do? It's not always your way, you know, kind of figure out how do we kind of get along in order to do something that we both enjoy. And sometimes that might not actually happen. And so then you have to kind of give in or give way.

Jon Steele  9:08  
I think that that is fascinating. You talk about that even relationship can be a quote unquote hindrance to our Quick Fix culture that we live in. I experienced this just the other day, for the last few months. My five year old has wanted to go grocery shopping with me every Saturday, every Saturday, she wants to come with me. And we have a whole mix of experiences. When we do this together. It takes a lot longer. You are pausing to look and touch and investigate and explain all these different things and quiet down conversations that are wanting to be started about the people around you. All of these different things that make for a very different experience. Well, this this Saturday, she wanted to stay home when I went grocery shopping. And so I had this mix of emotions of like, this is going to be so simple, but who's going to help me scan my food items and so I have this really interesting juxtaposition of recent experiences of, I was able to go fast and be more efficient in my grocery shopping. But it was far less entertaining, far less interpersonal. But just as you're talking about these things, I'm like, I have had a very recent experience with that. And I can identify some of the tension that you experience in both of those those opportunities.

Louis Tay  10:25  
God loves throwing in additional degrees of freedom in your life, you have to give up comfort, convenience and control when you are in these types of relationships. Because, again, it's not about you, it's about building those relationships, it's about growing together. And it is challenging. At the same time, it is so fulfilling, and so deeply nourishing, we are made for these types of relationships. And research shows that it only takes a few close deep, meaningful relationships, who fulfill that you don't need 1000s of followers, it takes a prolonged period of time to get to know somebody well. And I think one practical question to ask ourselves is, if I were to be in an accident, are there two people you can call who you know, will drop everything and be with you? Do you have that support? And are you willing to do that for somebody else as well? So I think that's that's a question for us.

Jon Steele  11:28  
Yes. Are there places of overlap that you can see of like, wow, this is the stuff that well-being research says is good for us? And this is actually confirmed, and has been long standing in Ancient Faith practices in spiritual disciplines.

Louis Tay  11:43  
Yeah, you know, carrying along the line of relationships. There has been over the last five and years, a lot of more work on pro social giving this idea of spending money on yourselves on ourselves versus spending it on others. And this ties into kind of, you know, traditions of being generous, tithing, and all of that, right. Yes. And the research shows that when you spend money on others, you actually happier. And if you were to spend it on yourself, wow. And researchers are kind of digging into kind of why that's the case. I think one is, you know, when you spend on others, often you are, for instance, buying coffee for somebody, you are able to build and deepen a connection. And I think at at base as well, you are perhaps using that as a forcing function to not only think about yourself and your needs, but kind of go beyond yourself. And I think in some ways that allows us to free ourselves from the tyranny of our own fears, and our own desires to think about others. And you know, we talked about loving God and loving others, right? So I think that there's something about that, that frees us. And so it's, it's amazing to see kind of that overlap there. So I think that's, that's one, I think the other area of interest is in mindfulness meditation. It's really this idea of, you know, non judgmental attention to the present moment. Often the practice of it is, you know, focus on breath, and bodily sensations to really center oneself to be in a moment. I actually think that, you know, in the hustle and bustle of life, we often as Christians need to practice some version of that mindfulness meditation, because we need to even prepare our hearts to listen to the Lord. As the Bible says, Be still and know that I've got, and if you've even tried it for any amount of time, even one minute, you just realize how many intrusive thoughts we have, yes, when I'm going to eat for lunch, what do I want to do later, or I worry about this. And I think just being able to center ourselves to prepare ourselves to listen to God. I think that's important. I mean, what perhaps is more closely tied with kind of the Christian practice is Lectio. Divina, as you know, it's really about, you know, monastic practice, of meditating on scripture, and interacting with the Lord, through thinking about Scripture over and over again. And I think that, that is related to, you know, greater levels of well-being as well. Just being able to center ourselves on the truths of what God says. So, mindfulness meditation, there's work showing that it does help with improving well-being. I think that as Christians and if we do practice some Have these meditative practices, it does help center us. And it helps us to also experience greater joy and greater levels of wellness.

Jon Steele  15:11  
Maybe I'm just making this up in my own head. But I continue to see these threads from other parts of our conversation. And that's, you know, as we talk about the inconvenience of relationship, that it slows us down, that feels like a part of that, like our need for these meditative and reflective practices as we prepare for spending time with God. And that that can be very frustrating because of all of these intrusive thoughts that we have. And in part, it's because we are welcoming another person into the situation with us that is we sit down with God, we are forced to slow down and to move in step with him, just like we are when we call up our friend and say, Hey, what movie do you want to go see this weekend, and, and you're sitting there talking about like, oh, gosh, there's really this one that I want to see. And I'm thinking about how much it's going to cost if we can go to a matinee versus a late showing, and all of these sort of intrusive moments that could detract from your planning, but that are also part of slowing down to walk in step with your friend and to make plans. And that feels like that's part of why we can get so easily frustrated as when we sit down and try to spend time with God. And that we can just say, like, nothing happens, like all I do is just sit there. And I think about this. And I think about that, and I don't feel like I'm making any progress with God. And it almost feels like a place to normalize that and say, say like, yeah, that's that is part of like developing a relationship with anyone, including God, especially God, because we're trying to slow ourselves down and quiet our minds and walk in step and build a relationship, which takes time.

Louis Tay  16:49  
Yes, definitely. And I love that observation about, you know, stilling ourselves, as we are kind of in that relationship. There's also another thing that I have students do as well, in my science of well-being class, another practice, which is active listening. And being in a relationship requires that listening and not just listening, but listening. Well, in order to listen, well, it is often a posture of really tracking what somebody is saying, rather than, you know, at the back of our mind, sometimes this occurs, right. Okay, when is this person going to be done? I can't get my next meeting, or I want to do X, Y, and Z. And we all encounter that. But but the art of listening well, is to be able to say, No, I'm not going to be listening to these intrusive thoughts that I'm having. But I'm going to be fully present to you, Jon, because you're having a conversation, or I'm going to be fully present to you God, because you're present here. And I want to listen to you. So yeah, there's something about that, too, that all ties into this kind of relationship and relationship building.

Jon Steele  18:03  
Yes. It's just fascinating to me to slow down and to think through these relationships, in the end, the interplay, are there other places of overlap that you that you see as you continue to live in this world of well-being? And as we think about what it looks like to be growing disciples of Jesus?

Louis Tay  18:19  
Yeah. So you know, a few years back, we were also very curious about figuring out, you know, what are kind of levels of income that are needed for people to be happy, okay. And we are seeing that there is a level of income satiation, meaning that, beyond a certain point, income doesn't do much for happiness. Again, many of us work or we find jobs, because we want to have a certain standard of living, or we're pursuing, you know, income for not necessarily even for its own purpose, but for other reasons. But income can only buy happiness to a certain point. And of course, some people ask, you know, what, what is that level of income, right? And it ranges, you know, from, you know, 60 to $95,000. And depending on what aspect of well-being you're talking about, whether it's life satisfaction, or the motions, but certainly around that range, I think. So I think that if we are continually hankering for more and more money, I think that it is important as well to pause. Or, you know, the Bible does say, right, it's not money that is, you know, the root of all evil, but the love of money that is the root of all evil. And there's a lot out there, especially for young people these days, where it's like, hey, you know, earn more money, you implicitly you'll be happier. Right? Right. I think it's important to pause and to really kind of think about that, because the research also points to the fact that it doesn't actually, on average, make you happier. In fact, it could make you more miserable.

Jon Steele  19:57  
Which then ties into what you were talking about earlier, this pro social giving, that has a very positive impact on people's well-being. So that if you have this understanding of my financial development only has a certain benefits or certain amount of benefit to me and my well-being and my outlook on life. But anything above and beyond that, if that's also something that I consider as part of this pro social giving, of investing in others, alumni investing in their chapter account giving at church buying coffee for a friend that you could sort of bundle well-being in, in these different ways, your understanding of your finances could have a really significant impact on your thoughtfulness around giving, and the impact that then that that also has on your well-being.

Louis Tay  20:46  
Definitely, you know, Jesus came to give us life and to give us life abundantly. Obviously, that doesn't mean that we won't have any suffering or misery, or challenges in this life. But I think being thoughtful, like what you said about how we spend our resources, in kind of giving to others does actually fill us with with joy and kind of that's what the research points to. The other aspect about how we spend our money to is that research is pointing to the fact that material purchases don't buy us as much happiness as compared to buying experiences, interesting spending time with somebody or going on a vacation with a family. Those types of experiential purchases, as it were, are things that we can go back to continually we can savor it, you know, purchasing the latest iPhone? Well, unfortunately, sorry, it's going to be outdated, right? So yes, the amount of happiness you can derive from that is much lower. So I would say as well, if if you do have discretionary income, you know, think about ways of spending it on others, but also ways that you can spend it so that you can create joint experiences that you all can relish together.

Jon Steele  22:02  
Yes, you're investing in something that lasts a memory that you can return to it doesn't wear out like your iPhone will. But it's something that it gets cemented and stays with you and you keep going back to that for the rest of your life, these memories that I have going on vacation with my family as a kid, like, oh, gosh, I still cherish those today. But I have thrown away so many phones. But it also is an investment in relationship and has these these additional benefits. Louis, the next question that I have is related to pursuing well-being in our personal lives. Do you have other thoughts related to that?

Louis Tay  22:37  
Yeah, I would like to speak to that a little bit. I think, you know, we talked a little bit about this idea of self care early on in our conversation, I think that physical and spiritual health is really often at the core of having kind of the ability to even pursue well-being pursue happiness and serve others. So those as well have an important place in our lives. Okay, so being able to have the spiritual practice of really listening to the Lord each day, making time for others. So I mentioned and then also exercise and sleep. Yeah, those are things that we often neglect. But there is so much research, showing that you don't sleep well, if you don't eat well, if you don't exercise, you are not going to be as happy as you would be. And we often don't think about that. Or perhaps we kind of downplay that, because Oh, that's not spiritual. You know, I want to think about these other things that work with spiritual, but I think it's so vital to care for ourselves in those ways, and be very deliberate. And I think that you will actually experience a much higher levels of of well-being, just by being able to take care of your spiritual and physical health.

Jon Steele  23:53  
I mean, that makes so much sense to me, just simply because it seems like in every aspect of research, whether you're talking about mental health or physical health, or whatever it is that some of these things that you talk about those feel like some of the the pillars of health that come up again and again and again. Are you having issues in fill in the blank area? Well, how was your sleep? And how's your diet? And are you exercising? Like, those are three things that you can implement in almost any situation where things are just feeling a little off kilter, and that that might have a significant impact or more than likely, if you are deficient in one or more of those areas, that it will have a significant impact on fill in the blank issue that you're experiencing? And as I think about as I think about our young alumni listeners who are moving into new spaces and new experiences, it feels like this is sort of a linchpin opportunity for them of what are the practices that you're going to establish in this new place from the beginning, you might have this new job and so you, you know what your kind of nine to five is going to look like five days a week for others. People, your schedules will look different speaking generally. But then all of this other time, how are you going to start in this new place? What are the rhythms that you're going to establish getting enough sleep eating well, and incorporating exercise? And that's not to forget the practices that we've already talked about, of, of what does it look like to pursue relationship? What does it look like for continuing to pursue relationship not only with people but with God and to establish these things as part of healthy rhythms that will promote a healthy sense of well-being?

Louis Tay  25:32  
I couldn't agree more. 

Jon Steele  25:35  
Well, Louis, we've covered a number of fascinating topics that you can start applying these things right away. But I also want to give space for one final question here a question I asked all of our guests. And this can be specifically related to the content we've been talking about today. Or it can be related to your own life experience. But if you could connect with someone who's nearing or has just entered their new life after graduation context, what advice would you give them?

Louis Tay  26:02  
Yeah, kind of beyond what I've shared, I think it's having the right expectations. Most of life, you know, when you come out of, you know, college and university, you're like, oh, you know, I see like going this way or, you know, things have to move a certain way. And at this pace, most of life, I would say, is a repetition, and invisible increments. And so you might not see progress daily, you might not see immediate, quote, unquote, impact. As the saying goes, the days are long. But the years are short, yes, they'll be patient and wait on the Lord. And trust him to use this process. For some reason, God loves to use time to refine us think about Moses in the desert, there's something about repeating daily routines, whether it's okay, I'm gonna exercise again, because you can just say that I've exercised once this week, so I'm done for the month, right? It doesn't work that way. Right? You have to do it over and over and over and over again, some people describe it as the grind. Yes, I really, I just think of it as repetition. Invite the Lord to that. I think sometimes people get antsy, or sometimes people want to kind of break out of that. But God uses that. And so I think that often students coming out of college, they have a rude awakening, like, oh, wow, this is this is life. I'm doing this over and over and over again. Yes, but that's how the Lord works in our life. And that's going to be the majority of our lives, we'll have you know, ups and downs, and so forth. But a lot of it is repetition. So be prepared for that. It's not going to be, you know, just a constant carnival or roller coaster. It's going to be, you know, doing the same thing over again.

Jon Steele  27:57  
Yes, I love that piece of advice. Because we live in a world and in a culture where we have quick access to people's success stories, where, you know, you look up somebody on YouTube, and they show you their one second picture, or one second video, you know, one second a day of my physical transformation. And so you've watched like three minutes, three to four minutes, and somebody's transformed their whole body. And it's like that took way more than three or four minutes. That's just my experience with it. But we are inundated with what feels like quick transformation, quick success. And the reality is for most of us, I love that it is repetition. It is it is dedication to doing things again, and again and again and again, and seeing slow but steady progress with with Jesus and in relationships with others and in the work that we're doing. And there'll be plenty of backtracking that happens as well. Absolutely. But it's the repetition. It's the repetition that will serve us well, through all of that. Those are wise words, Louis, I appreciate them greatly. And those are good things for us to remember, especially as we step into a brand new context that now's the time to establish healthy repetition. Thank you so much, Louis, I know that you have plenty of things going on in life around you. And so I'm grateful for your investment here and investing in InterVarsity alumni. Thanks a lot for joining me today.

Louis Tay  29:21  
Not all. Thanks for inviting me and it's been a pleasure to be on the show.

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele  29:27  
Loving God and having godly loves. According to Dr. Tay This is foundational for our well-being. What's interesting to me is that it isn't only focused on self on me. Yes, there are very important self care elements. But our well-being is best cultivated when it also maintains an intentional outward focus. I mean, it's the greatest commandment Love God with your whole life. And the second is like it Love your neighbor as yourself. It's not about finding the exact right job. It's not about finding the exact right spouse or home. It's not even about finding the exact right Church. Modern well-being research is confirming that the things we've heard from Jesus from the beginning are in fact the way to live a better, more fulfilling life by turning our focus outward on our Creator, our Savior and the people that he's put around us. And that might feel a little abstract. So thankfully, Dr. Tay gave us some practical tools throughout the episode for pursuing well-being in this way. I've put them into a list for you. You can find them in the show notes or in the post that will be on Instagram for this episode, find that save it and keep coming back to it. Also, stay tuned for a short bonus episode with Dr. Tay in a few weeks where he shares more about cultivating well-being at work specifically. Dr. Tay, thanks so much for joining us today. You have been so helpful as we seek to outfit our lives with healthy godly practices in this new post graduation season. Alumni Be sure to come back next week for my conversation with Jay Kim, pastor and author of the book analog Christian cultivating contentment, resilience and wisdom in the digital age. Jay is gonna do two things for us. One, he's going to present us with some sobering realities. We'll talk about the unhealthy comparison and reckless indulgence that we're experiencing every day. And that is so heavily influenced by social media and digital content. Thankfully, the second thing he's going to do is provide a whole lot of hope and encouragement, he's going to introduce us to the framework found in his book that's built around the fruit of the spirit that's going to help us implement healthy life rhythms for navigating the digital age. If you haven't done it yet, now's a great time to subscribe to the podcast so that you can hear from Jay. It's going to be super helpful. All right. Thanks for joining. And I will see you in the after, alumni.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai