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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
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Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.814)
Hi Nancy, how are ya?
Nancy Harris (00:02.192)
I'm good, how are you Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.044)
Very good and excited to talk about this piece because I don't know about you, I'm gonna find out in a second, but I really loved it. And I've read Robin Wall Kimmerer, her name is hard for me to say, in the past. I read Braiding Sweetgrass, although I'll be honest, I didn't finish it. But I do love her writing style. So I'm really excited to chat about it. I'm curious what your like, just 2000 foot view, high level review of this piece was.
Nancy Harris (00:31.142)
really enjoyed it. It's interesting. I didn't realize that she was the same author because several people had recommended that book to me and I haven't read it yet. And I just, for me, the piece was really timely. The focus and connection around nature and how we interact with nature, but even more so profound.
how we disconnect from it and objectify it and how I have seen that parallel in terms of how we objectify people and humans.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:11.256)
which obviously right now, I mean, it's always been an issue, but I feel like it's top of mind for a lot of folks here in America at this point in time. So yeah, I mean, this was written eight years ago. Yeah, and it feels timeless though. It feels like it could just as easily be out today and be just as poignant and important now as then. So just for people to give like a really high level review of what this is about, it's...
Nancy Harris (01:20.806)
Yeah, yeah, it was like 2017 I think yeah
Nancy Harris (01:34.096)
I just for people to give like a really high level review of what it's about it's it's talking about using language as a tool for changing our relationship with the world around us specifically here talking about how we objectify living beings, creatures, living things so including like the wind and trees and also animals and insects and all of those things we call it and it is sort of a
Becky Mollenkamp (01:39.054)
talking about using language as a tool for changing our relationship with the world around us. Specifically here talking about how we objectify living beings, creatures, living things. So including like the wind and trees and also animals and insects and all of those things we call it. And it is sort of an object, right? The same way we would with a shovel or a
Nancy Harris (02:03.95)
object right the same way we would with a shovel or you know something man-made right and the Conversation is around pulling from indigenous roots on saying how what if we use language that made So maybe even a separate sort of language than he or she but that still let us treat them differently
Becky Mollenkamp (02:08.392)
know, something manmade, right? And the conversation is around pulling from Indigenous roots on saying, if we use language that made those things not people, so maybe even a separate sort of language than he or she, but that still let us treat them differently than these sort of manmade objects, right? so it's funny because that premise is sort of, to me, feels a little
Nancy Harris (02:31.826)
It's funny because that premise is sort of, to me, feels a little, maybe a little out there or a little like, sure, that sounds nice, sort of a thing, right? But then when you read this and the way she so clearly illustrates exactly what you said of how far does that leap from when you start to objectify.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:37.294)
Maybe a little out there or a little like, sure, that sounds nice sort of a thing, right? But then when you read this and the way she so clearly illustrates exactly what you said of how far is that leap from when we start to objectify one form of a living creature, you know, from the insect to the panda, before we start to do the same with humans, right? The way that we separate ourselves. And I thought that was so interesting.
Nancy Harris (02:53.33)
one form of a living creature, you know, from the insect to the panda before we start to do the same with humans, right? The way that we separate ourselves. And I thought that was so interesting. Yeah. And, you know, I also appreciated that, you know, she delved or, you know, delved into and really talked about
being separate, disconnected, but also the intentionality behind that, Bringing in and weaving in colonialism and stolen lands and capitalism and extraction. And I personally probably would have never made that connectively.
with nature, know, how she took this, you know, utilizing nature. I wouldn't have put all of that together. And that's why I think it was also so profound.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:59.832)
Well, and I think that's got to be owing to her Indigenous roots, because that's what she's pulling from here so much, talking about the Potawatomi people, is where she, her ancestry is, and talking about the loss of language and what that means as a, you know, as part of loss of identity. And it's not a big leap then to go from loss of language, right, because of colonialism, people coming in, these, you colonizers sort of, and even pointing to, you know, Christian colonizers specifically and saying,
Nancy Harris (04:01.137)
Yes.
Nancy Harris (04:09.702)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:27.79)
coming, these folks came and sort of not in not by accident, very much intentionally put people into these schools, force them to speak English. And then that erased language, which she's now desperately trying to relearn to teach other generations. And that's definitely a movement that's happening, but entire language being destroyed. And then from that becomes identity destroyed. Right. And so I think if that is your experience, if that lives in your DNA, then it doesn't feel like a big leap to be able to say,
Nancy Harris (04:38.418)
which she's now desperately trying to relearn to teach other generations and that's definitely a movement that's happening. But entire language being destroyed and then from that becomes identity destroyed. Right? And so I think if that is your experience, if that lives in your DNA, then it doesn't feel like a big leap to be able to say, I can see the importance of language even down to living creatures. And she talked about, I'm trying to remember, I think it was here where she said something about
Becky Mollenkamp (04:57.166)
I can see the importance of language even down to living creatures. And she talked about, I'm trying to remember, I think it was here where she says something about, in that language, the Potawatomi language, there is no it for nature. The living beings are referred to as subjects, never as objects, and personhood is extended to all who breathe and some who don't. Meaning, she says, even from the silent boulder people, meaning boulders are seen as people to chickadees that are talking.
Nancy Harris (05:06.662)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:27.042)
Yeah, I can see because she's she's also framing this as as a professor and with her students and trying to introduce them to this idea. And most of them are scientists and scientists are very like practical and there is resistance in that. And I can feel that a resistance in myself. Did you feel any of that too? Like you're saying like I would have never thought about it to the degree like down to the boulder being not in it. I can feel that resistance in myself. And also there's this like when I can let that go this beautiful opening that happens.
Nancy Harris (05:54.554)
I don't know that I felt any resistance to it. I felt also like a parallel. mean, if she was talking about, you know, her ancestry.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:57.17)
good.
Nancy Harris (06:03.916)
It made me think of my ancestry, African-American, stolen from, you don't know the language, you know, and all of that. So I didn't feel resistance to it because I know that other cultures embrace and interact with nature in a different way. And it was so interesting. I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I recently saw Sinners. And so again, I won't, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:31.045)
my gosh, this just came up on another show yesterday. Everybody's seeing this movie. I gotta go see it.
Nancy Harris (06:33.682)
I won't get into any spoilers, but there is this piece where they talk about the connection to, well, they don't talk about it, but after I've done some analysis of the movie, deeper analysis, right? There's this connection between nature and the blues, music and the slaves. And so all of that, I was like...
I don't know, I think it was probably more resonant to me than it was, know, any kind of dissonance in terms of what it was that she was talking about.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:11.32)
Well, and I am sure, well, I'm not sure, but I would imagine that it's not surprising given that we have different cultural backgrounds that it would that as somebody whose background is, although I don't know it that fully, I can assume I'm more along the lines of the colonizer folks. Right. And it's not terribly surprising then knowing that I have more European roots that like.
Nancy Harris (07:24.369)
Right. Right. For the verbs. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:33.078)
I do feel that resistance because my lineage is this, as she says, English language is made up primarily of nouns compared to the verb based Potawatomi language. And like, that's my, that's what's woven into my DNA, right? This idea of things being things, them being it's that I am allowed to then like conquer, take, own, possess. And so I'm not surprised I found it challenging, even though like, I don't love to admit that I did, but I love that when I could let that piece sort of go.
Nancy Harris (07:47.922)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (08:01.666)
and I was able to let it go and just be like, can I be with this idea? It feels so beautiful, right? Like it feels like expansive and like it makes you wanna go out and hug a tree and there's nothing wrong with that.
Nancy Harris (08:16.818)
Or like just put your I was talking to someone the other day and they were like or just take your feet and just you know go to the sand and Where if you have sand around or grass right or you know putting your feet in and just grass and just you know grounding from that perspective and I also found the article, you know, particularly Resonant with me because I
live and dwell in a city like surrounded by like concrete everywhere. And I have felt a strong pull to spend more time in nature, to be in nature.
and connect with nature in a different way. And so just, again, reading the article, again, I know she was looking at it through the lens of her roots and her lens, and I was looking at it also in terms of like contemporary or like, how does this apply to me now? How am I interacting or not interacting with nature? And how does that...
you know, show up for me. How does that impact not just me, but like, but all of us, right? A friend of mine mentioned something a couple of years ago when I was like, I'm craving nature. And she's like, you have nature deficit disorder.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:48.834)
I love that.
Nancy Harris (09:51.682)
And I was like, yeah. mean, yes. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:57.208)
Don't we all, mean, so many of us, not all, but so many of us, yeah. It feels like that thing that so many people experience in the winter time of the sort of seasonal affective disorder of not having enough just vitamin D, sunlight. But I feel like so many of us can relate to that in so many ways when, that we don't, even if we, like I'm looking outside, I see trees, I see green, it's lush right now. And yet how much am I actually engaging with that spending time in it?
Nancy Harris (10:06.994)
Yeah
And yet how much are they actually engaging with the clients? Exactly. Yeah. So that's the other thing too. It's like when we are around it, I was on a call with a client and they were, I could see in the background, you know, was all, you know, trees in their office, know, trees in the background. And I said, oh, that's, you've got a beautiful view. And she's like, well, it's actually a parking lot. But I thought, gosh, she's missing all these beautiful trees that, I mean, that's, that's all I saw were like the trees surrounding her. So.
To your point, it's like I do think sometimes we take nature for granted, which again, I think is really resonant with the article, with the post.
Because I think that's how we've been taught, raised. And again, not all of us, because I know some folks have a different relationship with nature. So I'm just saying in general, right? That objectification or taking it for granted or not paying attention to it. Or I'd like what she said too. It's like we're looking at it as changing the names and the nomenclature to natural resource, like natural resources.
And then I pulled from that having spent many years in human resources, I was like how that name was human resources. And I was like, huh, interesting, resources.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:38.658)
Right. it's I mean, I think because she's there's a line here that says bulldozers, buttons, berries and butterflies are all referred to as it as things, whether they are inanimate industrial products or living beings. And when it's just like that stark reminder that I know butterflies are living beings and I don't go out of my way to kill them or any of that. Right. But like just that, like, yeah, when I start to make a butterfly, the same in my mind as a button, right. By referring to them by these same things and thinking of them both as it's.
Nancy Harris (11:50.054)
And when it's just like that stark reminder that I know butterflies are living beings and I don't go out of my way to kill them or any that, right? But like, just that like, yeah, when I start to make a butterfly, the same in my mind as a button, right? By referring to them by these same things and thinking of them both as it's. And how far is that leap really, as you're talking about to go from natural resources, these products, these things, to human resources, and we know from history, that isn't a hard leap.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:08.846)
then how far is that leap really as you're talking about to go from natural resources, these products, these things, to human resources and products and things. And we know from history, that isn't a hard leap for some people to make.
Nancy Harris (12:20.434)
It's not a hard leap, right? It's not a hard leap at all. And I have appreciated as I've seen the profession that I worked in and have worked in for many years change and at least now calling it like people and culture or something other than that resource because now when I hear it, it it kind of grates me to hear that terminology.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:48.938)
funny how we take these things for granted though, or just like they go so unnoticed. I say HR, say human resources all the time. Do I really stop to think about what that's saying? No, but that is the way and that's why I think like as part of me is like, who cares what pronouns we're using on these things. But then again, how far is that link to talk about pronouns, which are very much a part of it, you know, the public debate right now where I would fight fiercely for people to have the pronouns that represent who they are, because I understand that importance of it. So like, it's funny how we can
Nancy Harris (12:50.83)
Yeah.
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:18.734)
how much this like capitalism and the colonial, I don't want to say experiment, because it's the thing that's happening, but this colonial journey we've all been on is like how much it has used language to numb us in a way, right? And to make us like willing participants in things that when you really stop to like analyze it, you think that's not like, because I don't think of a button on a butterfly as being the same.
Nancy Harris (13:20.402)
Yeah, Right now
Becky Mollenkamp (13:49.74)
And yet, do I? Because I'm, you know, and I certainly don't think of humans as resources. And yet, I use that language.
Nancy Harris (13:49.842)
I don't. Do I? Because I mean, and I certainly don't think of humans as resources. And yet, I use that language. Yeah, yeah. And some people do. And that's unfortunate and obvious. absolutely. Absolutely. As silly as it can seem in a way, like there's this part of you that's kind like, because I think one of our students is sort of like, you know, who cares? Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:00.972)
Well, right, obviously, right?
But this is also part of how that happens, I think. I think language is, as silly as it can seem in a way, like there's this part of it that's kind like, because I think one of our students is sort of like, you who cares? It's words, right? And there is that part of me that's like, yeah, I get it. And we know that words are so much more than words.
Nancy Harris (14:19.602)
I get it. we know that words are still in the system. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I recall that section in the article. think one of the students says, like you said, who cares? Like we were on a farm. We had relationships with the animals. We called them all its, who would want to name something before we were about to eat it? And she's kind of like, that's the point. Right. That's kind of the point. Right? So yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:43.118)
Thanks for proving my point.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:48.526)
But it is confrontational in that way too, because I'm thinking, like, there is that part of you reading it going like, so does this mean I have to be a vegan? And what does all of that mean? even that, because she's like, but I love the freedom that it gives you, because it's like, even the radish is a creature that would, that, you know, is a living organism that we could honor. And it becomes more about, and this is where it really got me, because it was like, at first I'm like, ugh, I've heard the vegan like things and I love people who vegan. I wish I could be, but I just can't, okay?
Nancy Harris (14:51.826)
Right
Becky Mollenkamp (15:17.184)
And so those sometimes get overwhelming because it just feels guilt inducing. And instead this felt like it's this call to say it's not about having to change all of your behaviors necessarily, but it's mindfulness, it's awareness, it's appreciation. Because how often do we just zip down that salad without thinking anything? And her point is like, can we take one moment to say, thank you, thank you for this, right? That you are now providing me this nourishment. And that is a very different way of existing.
Nancy Harris (15:19.426)
Yeah, yeah. It was.
you know, the antithesis of the way that we, you know, at least I can speak in the US, I can't speak for, you know, other countries, you know, kind of how we live and breathe, breathe in and operate, right? So, and just your point around like, you know, vegan, it's like we take these things and then we use them to like demonize people, right? You know, so it's like, well, you're not a vegan or you are, you're this or you're that. And again, it's that.
disconnection then from, know, kind of like the words or power. It's like, it's the labeling, it's the you're different, you're this, you're a carnivore, you're a vegan, you're a vegetarian, you're a pescatarian, you're this, you're that, like all of that, right? And it's like, no, everybody's a human.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:35.01)
Right. Or well, and in this case, every everything that's living is a living is living right until it's not. And can we just honor that? Because again, it's maybe you make the same choices, but when you stop to think about the choice you're making to give some honor to this, this living thing, right? I think even as we think about the times in history where humans have been
Nancy Harris (16:37.414)
everything that's living. Everything that's living,
Becky Mollenkamp (17:00.302)
treated as objects, right? Which is the, I think is the obvious, even though I don't know, it's not as explicitly laid out, but it's like, you can't read this and not think about that. And it's like, there was no, there's no stopping to appreciate, there's no stopping to think, there's no mindfulness, there's no care, and how much that could change things if we brought that energy to everything.
Nancy Harris (17:06.13)
not laid out, it's like you can't read it and not think it. And it's like, there was no, there's no stopping to appreciate, there's no stopping to think, there's no mindfulness, there's no care. And how much that could change things if we brought that energy to everything. Yeah, yeah. It was interesting. I wrote down like a few like words that came when I was reading it, I wrote down, you know, the disconnect and the disconnection and then the dehumanize, right?
and we then disconnect from the nature. Then we can dehumanize other people, the planet, the earth. And then so then it makes it so much easier for us to then objectify and then to destroy. And we see it happening now. It's like these words, someone's an immigrant, then it's illegal.
then it's thug, right, alien, thug gang member. Fill in the blank. It's like then, I remember having a conversation, this was several years ago with a friend and I live in Chicago and there was a killing and my friend said, the person was a gang member.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:05.3)
alien
Nancy Harris (18:33.884)
And I said, yeah, but there was still someone's son, maybe someone's father, uncle. So when we reduce people to this, then it's like, and then it was like the light bulb went off for her like, yeah, you're right. But you see it in the news. So when she said the words matter in nature, and I wrote, and they matter everywhere.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:44.247)
and
Becky Mollenkamp (19:03.82)
Right. I think she said something about like, I think it might've actually been from Kristin Trippett from On Being podcast, but who said like, words create culture or something like that. And yeah, mean, the language, it does matter so much. And that's exactly like the way you draw that line of it starts here. And then it's like those who are willing, because I think it's important to, she points out in the same way you did, some people are just going to be extractors. They're just takers, they're destroyers. That's the...
Nancy Harris (19:05.006)
about like I think
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:33.302)
it may be very difficult to change them. And she said, like, just changing the language isn't going to necessarily change that. But what I think it does address is someone like me, who would be like, human resources. Hmm, I use that language all the time. Have I stopped to really think about what that says, what that means? No, I just take a lot of things for granted, right? And having to confront it is something that helps someone who does want to show up differently, who does want to value all living creatures. like,
Nancy Harris (19:36.937)
Right. Exactly.
Nancy Harris (19:51.794)
and having to confront it is something that helps someone who does want to show up differently, who does want to value all living creatures and noticing it. And so I think it's important for that reason because it does create cultures. And those lines where it's like those who are willing and want to take, extract, destroy, they're the ones who keep pushing. They just push the language. And how far can we push this language out?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:02.31)
noticing it. So I think it's important for that reason because it does create cultures and those lines where it's like those who are willing and want to take, extract, destroy, they're the ones who keep pushing. They just push the language. And how far can we push this language out until now we have, and we saw this with Hitler, we're seeing it again, where it's like, can I just start here and then push it a little more and a little more until average people who with any amount of thought and care would think of themselves as people who love people.
Nancy Harris (20:17.714)
Until now we have been, you we saw this with Hitler. We're starting to see, we're seeing it again, right? Where it's like, I just start here and then push it a little more and a little more. Until average people who with any amount of thought and care would think of themselves as people who love people are suddenly taking an entire group of people and thinking of them no longer really even as people. yeah, throw them in that box over in that other country where we know they're going to be treated like animals because they're basically animals.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:32.556)
are suddenly taking an entire group of people and thinking them no longer really even as people, right? Like, yeah, throw them in that box over in that other country where we know they're gonna be treated like animals because they're basically animals. And how do we take, how does that happen? And I think you're right. It happens with that like little slide of the language. Language is that powerful.
Nancy Harris (20:56.142)
Yeah, it's, when you said that I just, thought of when you said treat people like animals. And I've heard people say this, like sometimes people treat their dogs now better than, but it's also like the, you the language now that we use around it when I was growing up, you know, it was like the dog.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:07.342)
you
Nancy Harris (21:14.488)
owner. Now it's like the pet parent, right? So it's like this, like you said, it's like this, and then you have this different relationship too. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:26.262)
And I that's important. I mean, right now, because my son is home from school today and he's sitting over there with our little pet dog and they we don't I mean, that is part of our family, right? She and we don't use it with our dog. I would never write and I think so many people would never use it with their animals, their pets, these family members. And then yet they're able to turn around. Please. love you, but you have to go. I'm working. But they will turn around and do that. This is he loves to look at himself.
Nancy Harris (21:34.578)
you
Right. Right.
Nancy Harris (21:52.412)
But I will turn around and do that.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:56.142)
They'll turn around and do that with humans after a certain amount of time, right? And it is, and I think what we do in one place is what we do in all places in a way, right? And so if we're willing to do that with our pets, then why, how hard of a leave is it to think that we would do that elsewhere?
Nancy Harris (21:57.266)
they'll turn around and do that with humans after a certain amount of time, right? And it is, and I think what we do in one place is what we do in all places in a way, right? And so if we're willing to do that with our pets, then why help art if it's thinking? Right, right. I think just there has to be a raised consciousness and awareness because like you said, there's words and there's things that we use, we don't think about it, we don't question it.
we just kind of go, you know, kind of rambling along and not necessarily thinking about the power that the words have. And that's why I would say, oh yeah, people should, you know, whether or not they read the post or they are, which would be fantastic, a portion of it. Even if there's the podcast that accompanied.
the article, which I actually read or listened to the podcast as well too. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was really good. mean, know, summarizing the, you know, obviously there was a question of an exchange, but it was a good primer to me before reading the article. But yeah, even if people just want to read that, or excuse me, listen to that podcast piece, I think that's also really important. But again, it also requires us, which when I think about nature as well too,
Becky Mollenkamp (22:57.838)
did good for you, I should. Was it good?
Nancy Harris (23:22.714)
It requires us to slow down. And that is, you know, the again, opposite of, know, we got to move faster, we got to do this, we got to produce more. Right. And so that slowing down that you do in nature is so profound. And last month, I went on a nature therapy walk.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:32.524)
Capitalism.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:45.845)
Mmm, I that was lovely.
Nancy Harris (23:47.908)
It was, and it was a mutual friend had connected me with someone who is getting her certification as a nature therapy guide. And it's grounded in, it was grounded and founded in Japan called Forest Bathing. And it was really interesting. She told us the story behind it, but.
gosh, that ability just to go on a Saturday morning, we were at the conservatory because it was still cold in Chicago. So we weren't gonna go to like a forest preserve quite yet. And just to be able to just, you know, there were different prompts, like you walk into one part of the conservatory, you know, the question's like, what do you smell? Right, so you just, you know, you're just taking it all in, you know, going to the other part, like, what are you seeing? Like what colors are standing out for you, right?
Because I'm sure oftentimes we're even going to the conservatory just looking, know, going through talking, somebody was getting, because there's a bunch of people there too. But even in the midst of all of the people around us, to be able to have those prompts and slow down and think about consciously, like we talked about in the very beginning, are we consciously like, I'm looking out at the trees, but am I really looking out at the trees? Am I slowing down to connect? So yeah, I mean, there's such a beauty in that.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:13.774)
Well, it's hard to have hate when you are that present and conscious, you know? Like when you're, right? But I mean, but how often do we not do that? Like, I just feel like we are wired not to do that thanks to capitalism, which needs us to be busy little bees that are, you know, contributing to the capitalist machine. And so it needs to keep us moving because I think like the system to protect itself can't have us being conscious.
Nancy Harris (25:19.12)
Why would hope so?
Nancy Harris (25:24.209)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:40.908)
being aware because that is where things begin to shift and we start to question like, am I, you know, like even the way we talk the rat race and things like that, right? Like we talk about these things and it's just like, why am I, I'm not a rat. And not that I think rats need to be racing either, like, why am I treating myself this way? And if we stop and actually be present and be aware.
Nancy Harris (25:42.034)
Because that is where things begin to shift and start to question. am I, you know, like, hmm, we talked about the race and things Yeah. Right, like, we talked about these things and it's like, why am I, I'm not a rat. I'm not that I think rats would be racing either. Right, exactly. Why did they get put into that?
Becky Mollenkamp (26:07.692)
We start to ask questions. start to think differently. We start to feel like love for ourselves. Because when you're spinning like that, it's easy. The machine wants you to not feel love for yourself or others because that's what keeps you going. And when you stop and have that, it's like, this doesn't feel good. And nature really, I find, and I think with so many of my coaching clients, I don't know if you experienced this too, where it's like, nature is that salve, that antidote to all of this. When people spend time in nature, they get reconnected to this reminder of like,
Nancy Harris (26:13.052)
Because when you're spinning like that, it's easy. The machine wants you to not feel love for yourself or others because that keeps you going.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:37.748)
Nature isn't rushing. Nature isn't panicked. Right? Nature isn't. And why am I, as part of nature, treating myself so differently? And it is this because, you know, she talks about how we use it to distance ourselves, to set others outside of our circle of moral consideration, creating hierarchies of difference that justify our actions so we don't feel. And it's these hierarchies. I've now elevated myself above nature, and yet nature seems to have it figured out more than me.
Nancy Harris (26:39.578)
Right. Right.
Nancy Harris (27:03.931)
I definitely think we need to be paying more attention to nature, to our animals, to like everything. like, you know, it's so, you know, powerful. Like, again, even if you said you're not out of nature, it's like if you have a dog, cat, gerbil, whatever, right? But I was thinking more because I also have a dog that's over there.
napping right now, hopefully for their hopefully no barking to interrupt us. And it's interesting, we go on a walk and there's a book I read years ago and it was called The Other End of the Leash or something like that. And essentially, it was talking about like, whatever it is that you're feeling on this side of the leash, if you're walking your dog, right? Your dog feels that they know it, they sense it, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (27:54.926)
Well, just the way dogs know when people like they have in cats too, and these nursing homes can like they'll know and go to people who are close to death. Like they have these sense because they're in tune with it in ways that we are just disconnected.
Nancy Harris (28:00.887)
It is something. Yes. Right. And we have disconnected ourselves from all of that. And to your point around like our clients and things that I coach, I mean, I coach a lot of women, I coach a lot of executives that are in executive director, nonprofit organizations. I mean, they're really giving, and I would say this for any leader, especially leading now, like,
you know, they're giving of so much of themselves. And, you know, if we're not careful, like,
I was going to use the word that's extract, like we're having, the organizations are extracting from us, like even if it's, has the best mission in mind. And so that, bringing together with nature and the slowing down, it was like the light bulb for me. was like, you know what, I want to incorporate this like nature therapy guide, like incorporate that into some of the coaching. And I was talking to another coach colleague of mine,
the other day who was saying how she, I can't remember the name of it. I'll try to remember the name. And if you want to put a link to it, she was, it was like biomimicry she was talking about where she, she utilizes nature and what's going on, you know, basically nature, biology, like as a connection point and a mimicry of, of, what's going on. And I was like, wow, like this is, this this is exciting me to think about.
Because again, Becky, like this is in taking this article that we read and it's making it real. Not that it's not real, but you know what I mean. It's like you can actually apply those things.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:48.014)
Nah.
Yeah, because this can feel a little esoteric of like, we're just talking about words and it feels big and what does it actually mean? But then, right, what does it look like? Because what she said to, I'm just going to read parts of this for people who don't actually read it. the one I recommend people read it. It says, our words can be an antidote to human exceptionalism, to unthinking exploitation, an antidote to loneliness, an opening to kinship. If words can make the world, can these two little sounds, the ones that she came up with, which were key and kin.
for singular and kin for a group of things that are not human but are also not like just in man-made objects. Can these two little sounds call back the grammar of animacy that was scrubbed from the mouths of the children at Carlisle? Again, those folks who had their language taken from them as children. And yeah, it's like how do we then say, okay, how do I use this in my life? Because I'm, I'm, I want to have that antidote to human exceptionalism. I want to unthink exploitation. And I do think
Nancy Harris (30:37.166)
And yeah, it's like, how do we then say, okay, how do I use this in my life? Because I wanted to have that antidote to human exceptionalism. I wanna un-think exploitation. I do think part of it is this connection to nature is huge. like, ways that we exploit nature and looking at those parallels to how we will, like how that translates to then eventually exploiting humans. Also looking at how nature behaves and like learning from that.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:49.358)
Part of it is this connection to nature is huge. the ways that we exploit nature and looking at those parallels to how that translates to then eventually exploiting humans, also looking at how nature behaves and learning from that. But then also thinking about our language. And what are the ways that we're participating in some of this just through the language that goes unnoticed, right? That we just sort of.
Nancy Harris (31:05.361)
then also thinking about our language and what are the ways that we're participating in some of this just through the language that goes unnoticed, right? And we just sort of take on without even thinking about it. think all of those things are really practical things that you can take from this. So leave your own mind. Yeah, yeah. There's so many applicable points. And again, particularly, you know, because I work with a lot of people who are in organizations.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:13.954)
take on without even thinking about it. think all of those things are really practical things that you can take from this to sort of bring into your own life.
Nancy Harris (31:33.628)
you know, in these systems, you know, for them to really think about, you know, what words am I using? What words are we using? How can we slow down? How might that show up for us? And how can we look at and utilize nature and what's going on in nature?
as a guide for how we want to lead and what that looks like.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:07.662)
Have you I mean, this is putting you on the spot. So if there's nothing, it's okay. Have you given thought to that for yourself yet? And what that what like what are the things I'll start just so you have time if you haven't thought about because one thing I think about too is just the seasonality of nature. And the way that and there's a book called wintering that talks about some of this is really great too. But the way nature blooms, right, and then it dies back and it goes into this like, almost like a
hibernation state, sorry, my brain's not great today, perimenopause. And then eventually, know, blossoms for, and it's just like this ebb and flow of nature, the way that nature protects itself by giving itself rest, because it recognizes like the tree, the flower can't stay in bloom 24 seven, right? It can't withstand the cold, it can't survive. So to survive, it knows it has to retreat into itself and rest.
Nancy Harris (32:35.442)
And then eventually, you know, it's just like the flow of nature, the way that nature protects itself by giving itself rest, because it recognizes like the tree, the flower can't stay in bloom 24 hours. It can't withstand the cold. can't survive. So to survive, knows it has to retreat into itself and rest and then come back.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:00.588)
and then come back when it's able. And that's something that I see and try really hard and I'm working with clients and myself to apply to our own version of leadership and of self leadership and of others, of honoring, our own, humans are no exception to that. We also have seasonality and we also have times when we can give more and when we need to rest more. And this idea of the nine to five work day and we all have to like clock in and suddenly have all the energy and clock off and like that's not.
Nancy Harris (33:01.628)
when it's able. And that's something that I see and try really hard and I'm working with clients and myself to apply to our own version of leadership and of self leadership and of others, of honoring, like our own. Humans are no exception to that. We also have seasonality and we also have times when we can give more and we need to rest more. And this idea of the nine to five work day, we all have to like clock in and suddenly have all the energy and clock up and like that's not.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:29.228)
really in tune with nature and not with human nature. So that for me is one. I don't know if there are any things that come to you. Yeah.
Nancy Harris (33:29.362)
really in tune with nature and not with human nature. So that's one. I don't know if there are any things that come to you. That definitely has been one. The other thing, and I use the term, know, the terminology around like slowing down and being in tune with and being in connection with like what's going on around me.
And then there's also something that I think about as well, too, when I think about nature. Like, is the tree worrying about, you know, where the water's coming from? No, right? And so for me, I think about that in terms of, know, like, why are to, like, worry about, like, what's coming next? You know, especially as an entrepreneur, like, what's coming next? Who's coming next?
all that worry and it's like if I can apply that and think about that, like, well, is the tree worrying? There's a phrase in the Bible and please somebody don't come after me because I don't remember the exact terminology, but it's like, essentially it was like, you know, but does, but do the birds worry, do the, you know, animals worry about like where the food is? It's like, no, like it's like, you know, that there's a greater and a higher power from, from which you'll be fed and sourced. And so I think
Becky Mollenkamp (34:37.238)
I think you'll be fine.
Nancy Harris (34:55.802)
you know, even having that like mindset or I think it's even beyond a mindset, it's a way of being in terms of how you lead and how you approach life, then it cuts down on that worry or these other, you know, terminologies that we've come up with like, we've got imposter syndrome and we've got this and it's like, no, like in the end, everything will be okay. And it will be the way
it's going to be without us trying to control everything. And so that's the other part that when you were talking about this, it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:33.038)
Yeah.
Nancy Harris (35:38.226)
doing what we can do, but then also this has been just clearer and clearer for me lately. Like that, you we don't control everything. you know, I... Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:50.306)
control very little. And yet we have this false idea that we control, have so much control over so much in our lives.
Nancy Harris (35:56.784)
Yeah. I think that that is a tool of capitalism, right? As a system, like, I'm a leader. I can control everything. I've got to make everything perfect. And then you're trying to do, like, it's like, no, like you can't.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:15.512)
Right, all you can do is the same way the tree tries to make sure its roots are deep into the soil and spread out far so that when the hurricane does come or the tornado does come, it has a better chance of surviving. spending all this time trying to control whether there's a tornado, that's fruitless, that's pointless, right? And you don't see that happening. It's just what are the things I can do? How do I root in so that I can be as prepared as I can be when something does happen? I love that. Something else you said though, just...
Nancy Harris (36:26.802)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:43.864)
really quickly because you said imposter syndrome and I immediately thought of does the dandelion wish it were a rose or is the dandelion happy to be a dandelion? And we many people see them as weeds and yet my child when he was three and four there was nothing he loved more than a dandelion and be able to pick it and blow those seeds and sprout more beautiful dandelions into the world and of course I'm sure people are looking at him going no I don't want more dandelions in my yard but like where did we decide that the dandelion was
Nancy Harris (36:45.924)
And you're like...
Becky Mollenkamp (37:13.184)
an ugly flower, so therefore a weed, and the rose is this beautiful flower, even though it has these thorns, and in many ways, it's far worse of a flower, right, to have around. And it's just so interesting, and they're not judging each other. And also, she mentions about children, her grandson calling the butterflies or whatever, she and he, and I remember my child doing that, and my child appreciated the dandelion and never thought twice about wanting a rose. And where is it that along the way we start to make these, this hierarchy of
Nancy Harris (37:15.122)
So therefore a weed and the rose is this beautiful flower even though it has these thorns and in many ways it's far worse than a flower right to have around and it's just so interesting and they're not judging each other and also she mentions about children her grandson calling the butterflies or whatever she and me and my child doing that and my child appreciated the dandelion and never thought twice about wanting a rose and where is it that along the way we start to make these this hierarchy of
Becky Mollenkamp (37:41.642)
Even like within plants, we as humans start to put these like assessments onto things. It's just so wild.
Nancy Harris (37:41.714)
Even like with implants, we as humans start to put these like assessments onto things. Yeah. And again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of like, then recognizing this. I've had a coach, I had a coach and have worked with her for many years. And I remember one of our sessions, I don't know what we were talking about or what I was sharing. And she made this comment. She's like, well, you know, it's all made up, right?
And I just kind of pause for a moment because I don't think I'd ever really thought about it. And it's just like you said, like some cultures, the dandelion might be the revered flower. Yeah, there's dandelion roots you can do with teas and all kinds of stuff. Absolutely. know, someplace, you know, in the city, like a pigeon's a menace and then a pigeon is like a delicacy someplace else. So, you know, when you think about it, it's like, oh,
Becky Mollenkamp (38:15.662)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:22.542)
Well, I believe you can make medicine out of dandelions if I'm not mistaken. I think they're... Yeah, cook with it.
Nancy Harris (38:41.432)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:43.214)
It's all of this stuff that we ascribe on to things. I think, again, to me, this doesn't feel like a lecturing. Like, I don't know if you felt the way I felt none of that. It just felt like this beautiful invitation to explore and rethink our relationship with everything, right? Starting with down to the pebble and the dandelion. then when you start, I just feel like, because she said somewhere in here, and now I don't have this in front of me, but I remember she said something about like,
Nancy Harris (38:54.566)
No.
Nancy Harris (39:01.904)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:12.984)
the why, why think about this when there are people that are like being treated so horribly in the world, right? Like let's focus our energy where it matters most and not on this. And there is that part of me that feels that come up, right? Like this feels like a silly exercise in some ways. But then I, when I really, again, when I invite myself to open up to this, I think if I bring that level of thought and care to the dandelion,
Nancy Harris (39:31.993)
I think if I bring that level of thought and care to the dandelion, how would I not then extend it outward, right? If we can do it for the, as they say, like the smallest or the least of us, we can do it for everyone, right? And I think that's like, so yeah, it can seem silly, but also I think I would challenge anyone that if you started to appreciate the beauty of the dandelion, you would be hard pressed to not be able to extend that love to.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:39.192)
How would I not then extend it outward, right? If we can do it for the, as they say, like the smallest or the least of us, we can do it for everyone, right? And I think that's like, so yeah, it can seem silly, but also I think I would challenge anyone that if you started to appreciate the beauty of a dandelion, you would be hard pressed to not be able to extend that love to humans, right? And to everything else. So like, I think there is something to that.
Nancy Harris (39:59.698)
Yeah. I think it'll cause me to rediscover my relationship because I'm somebody I don't like bugs, right? Like I'm scared of bugs. Yeah. So I was like, we'll have to continue to work on those things, looking at it differently, right? But you said something about rediscovering your relationship and the other thing that came to me, you reading it.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:12.396)
heat spiders.
Nancy Harris (40:28.944)
reading the article was I feel like I'm in a phase right now where I'm rediscovering my relationship to nature and wanting to be in nature and wanting to move someplace where there's more nature around me. And I had this vision of my dad who passed away about four years ago. Thank you.
And he was gardener. And remember I was like, in this watering can with the flowers in our backyard growing up. And I just remember as a kid or a teenager or even an adult, like, oh gosh, gardening, sounds like so horrible. But that was his place to reconnect after working, having been somebody that worked in times, well, well.
I was like, I don't know, the times are seemingly quite similar and parallel to maybe working in the 70s and 80s, sadly. But you know, that place to go back and reconnect. And then I thought about his mom and grandmother and I was like, she garden and she would can, you know, fruit and, and, you know, vegetables and things like that. It was like,
Becky Mollenkamp (41:32.142)
Sadly.
Nancy Harris (41:48.146)
Okay, so maybe I was like, maybe we're like coming for full circle and it's me saying I was like, I'd like an herb garden or I'd like to do this. So it is that that reconnection point. So I think it can be our own reconnection with whether it's our ancestors, with nature, with the people that are on our teams and in our organizations and, you know, the clients and all of that that we
that we ultimately serve, like how can we reconnect to that?
Becky Mollenkamp (42:20.31)
so interesting that you have because what it makes me think of is like, nature is the only thing that really can reconnect us to our ancestors. It's the only thing that's the same as when our distant ancestors were around, right? if you brought your great, great grandma back to life and said, Hey, look at this iPhone, her brain would melt, right? She'd be like, I don't get it. My grandma who was alive when some of this technology she didn't get it, you know, but the thing that does connect us is
Nancy Harris (42:29.23)
ancestors. It's the only thing that's the same as when our distant ancestors were around, right? Like, if you brought your great great grandma back to life and said, Hey, look at this iPhone, her brain would melt, right? She's like, I don't get it. My grandma who was alive when some of this technology, didn't get it, you know. But the thing that does connect us, connect us all, all the way back is that we have all been on this land. And so I mean, I'm not a gardener.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:50.082)
connect us all, all the way back is that we have all been on this land, right? That land is the thing that connects us. And so, I mean, I'm not a gardener either. My husband does a lot of that and he enjoys it. But more and more, there is this part of me too, that's like, even if I don't want to necessarily put my hands in the dirt yet, I do want to be out there more. And when I am, does, I guess that's what helps me feel connected to myself too. Because the thing that hasn't changed in my lifetime, let's hope it, you know, well, if it does, we're all gone, but is that this
Nancy Harris (43:00.134)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:19.822)
planet is the thing that has been here from the moment I was born into this earth and I leave it is like this is the thing everything else around me changes but like the trees have always been here these beautiful blue skies have always been here even the rain and the icky parts have always been here and they keep showing up for me and it does help me reconnect even to myself let alone my ancestors and that is such a gift and then we treat it so badly it's it's I mean
The piece we didn't talk about too was just like how we, know, environmentalism and the way we treat earth. And I think it's interesting that this piece that talks about like more around nature makes us think a little more actually about our human relationships and things. But it did also there is that part of like, God, if you are showing appreciation for the radish you're having on your salad, I think it becomes harder also then to continue to treat Mother Earth so poorly.
Nancy Harris (43:55.774)
I mean
makes us think a little more actually about our human relationships and things. But it did also, there is that part of like, if you are showing appreciation for the radish you're having on your salad, I think it becomes harder also then to continue to eat the earth. Yeah, yeah. Oh, climate change doesn't exist. So yeah, does make it that much harder. Yeah, and she mentioned some cultures that actually
Becky Mollenkamp (44:25.056)
And she mentioned some cultures that actually have done things like making Mother Nature basically a person. I, that stuff makes me sad in a way, because I think it feels so like it makes me happy for those places. It makes me sad for us as Americans of feeling like that feels so out of reach and so far fetched that that could ever happen here. I don't know. Do you feel like any hope in any of that where we start to think of like
Nancy Harris (44:28.156)
things like making Mother Nature basically a person.
in a way because we think it feels so like it makes me happy for those places. It makes me sad for us as Americans.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:54.604)
The Swiss now define animals as beings instead of objects. New Zealand, there was a river that was being threatened and the indigenous Maori leadership got protections calling that river a person. Like there was a few others examples, but it feels like, could ever happen here?
Becky Mollenkamp (45:16.654)
Yeah.
Nancy Harris (45:18.461)
I was also listening to someone who said, you know, we can have like doubts in one hand and we can also have a hope in the other.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:27.31)
you
Nancy Harris (45:28.23)
I think if I don't have hope that we can change and shift in some kind of way, it's like then, like, what's the point? So, if you asked me today, I'm like, wow, we seem like a far away from that. But just us having this conversation and people continue to have this dialogue, then I have hope that, then who...
who knows whose light bulb might go off over their head or sunlight will come and say, wait, or I never thought of that, or maybe there's something I can do. that's the hopeful part.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:08.11)
Yeah, of all the pieces that I've read so far for this, which is like, think you're the fourth or fifth interview. This is the one I most recommend people read, which surprises me in a way. As I started to read it, I was like, oh, gosh, why did I pick this one? I don't know if I'm going to like this. I picked it because I wanted something from Robin Wall Kimmerer because I know I love her and I hadn't read this. And then I was like, oh, gosh, maybe this isn't the right piece. And then as I read it, was like, oh, my gosh, this is exactly the right piece. It's what I needed today. It's what I need right now in this moment. It sounds like it was for you, too. Do you recommend other people read it?
Nancy Harris (46:32.444)
Yeah.
Nancy Harris (46:36.766)
100 % 100 % I think it will help people reframe
the way they think about and interact with nature and how that also applies, how we interact with and connect with each other.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:01.422)
You said you had taken some notes. I want to make sure. Was there anything else that came up for you as you're reading this that we didn't talk about or any parts that were particularly, you know, special to you?
Nancy Harris (47:02.578)
You said you had taken some notes. I want to make sure. there anything else that came to mind you were reading this that we didn't talk about?
Nancy Harris (47:11.41)
I think the only other thing I wanted to say that I drew from this and I had written this word down was privatization and objectification. I had recently listened to a video podcast. I cannot remember the name of the creator, but it was based on a book called, like, Everything is Privatized or something to that effect. I can get you the exact book title.
But it also made me think of that too. It's like, okay, gosh, as we objectify, then it's like, how can we extract? And then I thought, well, this is how we're like privatizing everything, right? So, you know, you won't own water or you won't, it's just, yeah. So that was the other thing that came to me. And then one other thing that I wrote down was like, grammar as a tool of revolution.
And I thought, wow, never thought of grammar as tool. Well, I mean, I never thought of it in that way. So I thought that that was also a really powerful statement that I pulled from that.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:20.514)
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have either. And it's one of those things where you think, hmm, but that is a tool in our arsenal. And honestly, as you look at current politics, it's like, yeah, the way messaging ends up playing a role in getting a person elected or allowing that person to do certain things, it's definitely something worth thinking about. So I'm glad that it got you thinking because it certainly did for me as well. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time and for reading this and talking about it with me. I loved this article.
Nancy Harris (48:29.138)
Yeah, the way messaging ends up playing a role in getting a person elected or allowing that person to do certain things, it's definitely something worth thinking about. I'm that it got you thinking. It certainly did for me as well. Thank you so much for your time and for reading this and talking about it with me. I loved this book. Yeah, this was, I'm going to share it. was fantastic. Definitely will be sharing it. Awesome. Thank you, Nia.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:50.286)
So I hope you did, I hope it felt like a good use of your time.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:56.716)
Yeah, awesome. Thank you, Nancy. I really appreciate your time.
Nancy Harris (48:59.804)
Thank you.