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The Healthy Wealth Experience - Where Financial Success Meets Personal Wellbeing
Host Chris Hall combines 30+ years in finance with wellness expertise to help entrepreneurs and professionals build wealth without sacrificing their health. From investment strategies to money management, we offer advice to make financial success more sustainable.
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If you juice a plant, if you juice those vegetables and you don't put in something sweet like fruit or just, you know, straight up sweeteners and sugars and things like that, it tastes awful. It is absolutely ghastly how bitter and awful it is. Why do we think that we have that natural instinct to abhor the taste of something that is good for us? Why would we be designed to hate the taste of something that's good for us? Now things can taste good because there are very clever scientists that have have have taken advantage of something called evolutionary traps, which we have this little signal of this thing that, oh, that's a good thing.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We want to eat that.
Chris Hall:Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I have a very special guest today. I'm excited to introduce you to Doctor. Anthony Chaffee, and he is a big proponent of the carnivore diet. As you know, I like to talk about wealth and health and wellness in general, and this just seemed like a really good fit because we live in a society that we've been living by the food pyramid for so long now, and our society has only gotten worse.
Chris Hall:Seems like a back to basics approach seems to be a good choice for that. So with no further ado, let me introduce you. Welcome to the show, Doctor. Chaffee.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Not a problem. Thank you for having me.
Chris Hall:Yeah. Of course. So I've obviously seen you on social media. Instagram was where I kind of found you, And I really, you know, started watching your stuff and I really enjoyed it. But tell the people that maybe haven't seen you before kind of how you got going on this and, you know, what your accolades are, etcetera.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Well, I'm I'm a medical doctor. I'm originally from The US, but I've lived in Europe and now Australia. And I've always been interested in medicine, but I've also played high level sports. I was an all American rugby player. I played professionally for years before medical school.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And, you know, as as as professional as it was in The US, but then I actually, you know, played overseas as well. Okay. I was always interested in nutrition. I always knew understood that that was a major part of health. I mean, goes back to Hippocrates, Let food be thy medicine, medicine thy food.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:If he actually said that, who knows? But that was something that I was always raised with. My parents were always very, very insistent that the food that you ate mattered and that certain foods could cause disease, things like that. So it was a concept that I was I was well familiar with. It's just that we were told sort of the wrong things.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And as I started studying this more and more and more, I started to realize that the the standard recommendations were just getting us to where we were. People were listening to this. People can say that, well, only nine percent of people follow the guidelines. Well, only nine percent of people in America follow the guidelines. Well, only nine percent of people in America are diabetic.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So there you go. And the thing is though, as you can see in your own life, people around you trying to eat more so called healthy towards food pyramid, less meat, less fat, more fruits and vegetables, more whole grains, all that sort of stuff, more fiber. It's not helping their health. It's hurting it. And the people are getting fatter and sicker, and we've become fatter and sicker than we've ever been in human history.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And we can see that very, very clearly over the last forty years, even though the consumption data shows just as clearly that we've been eating less meat, we've been eating less fat, we've been eating more fruits and vegetables with fiber and whole grains, and also more sugar and more seed oils, you know, over three times as much. So I fell into this sort of accidentally because I had a professor that was very clear that plants had toxins, naturally occurring toxins, and we know this as biologists that the plant kingdom makes about a million different defensive chemicals to stop animals and insects from eating them. We have classified them, categorized them, and quantified them. So this isn't a secret, this isn't a guess. These are known quantities, And we forget that because we've been told for decades that these things are just universally healthy.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:There's nothing wrong with them. Everything's better. The more fruits and vegetables you eat, more fruits and that's all we see here. We eat more fruits and vegetables. We need more which fruits and vegetables?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Because they're different and they have different toxins. People that eat the same thing over and over and over again, they can actually get a buildup in these toxins. Liam Hemsworth, the actor, actually put himself in the hospital with acute oxalate poisoning because he was eating spinach smoothies every morning for three weeks and he almost killed himself. So that's serious and we need to be able to understand that and respect that. So I had a professor who was very clear about this, he was a professor of cancer biology during my undergrad at the University of Washington.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And he said very clearly that these plants were toxic. They were designed to be toxic by nature and they could also be carcinogenic. It's a cancer biology class. So he started pointing out that these toxins could cause physiological distress and damage that could later precipitate cancer, so a carcinogen, And that brussels sprouts had over 136 identified carcinogens at that time, back in thousand And that mushrooms had over 100, that spinach, kale, lettuce, celery, cabbage, cucumber, broccoli, all the produce items that you've ever seen in your life. We were given lists of these things as a handout, that had a number.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It had sixty, eighty, over a hundred known carcinogens in So this was quite startling. In fact, knew they were quite abundant too, because work from Professor Bruce Ames at UC Berkeley back in the late 80s, early 90s, where he basically was defending the pesticide industry because people were blaming pesticides for a lot of people getting ill because we radically changed the way we ate in the eighties and people started getting sick. And so everyone says, ah, it must be these pesticides because the vegetables are so good, but there's these poisons that we put on them. Right? Well, actually Oh, yeah.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. And so well, yes. The pesticides we spray on them are poison. I mean, that's why we spray on them so it can kill animals and insects trying to eat our crop. And then we go and eat that same crop and what we think is gonna happen.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:But what we forget is that we don't have to spray spray pesticides on forests or fields or nature because the plants make their own pesticides. And so that's what Professor Ames found and showed, was that the natural toxins, natural pesticides and insecticides naturally occurring in the plants outweighed the pesticides we sprayed on them by a factor of 10,000. So as he said, 99.99% of the pesticides and insecticides are naturally occurring in the plant, And they were actually worse than the pesticides we were spraying on them. These were all in preclinical trials, so using animal models. And so he found that the toxins found in mushrooms were hundreds of times more likely to cause cancer than the pesticides that they were investigating at the time called ALAR.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so this is why we still have things like ALAR. Didn't ban all these sort of things because he showed that the plants themselves were far more toxic and had far higher prevalence of these toxins than the pesticides we were spraying on them. And so that's what the data showed. What he concluded was, well, since we know fruits and vegetables are so good for you, obviously the pesticides can't be all that bad. Right?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That is a value judgment that is not borne out by the data. He had no data in those studies to say that fruits and vegetables were good for you, posed a positive effect on people's health, or that these toxins were not toxic to us. What he showed was that there's 10,000 times more toxins naturally occurring in plants, and they're hundreds of times more carcinogenic than known poisons that we put on plants to knowingly kill animals and insects. So he had a lot of good science, but then he he finished it off with a bunch of assumptions, which is, you know, you know, the saying about assumptions. You make an assumption, make you ass out of you and me.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So this is what people are are focusing on, you know, when I when I speak about that trial. They'll say, oh, but, you know, he concluded that, you know, that they're still good. Like, yeah, he can conclude whatever the hell he wants. His data showed that the plants are way more toxic. And then we had glyphosate, and, you know, that that was after that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That was like in '93 that came in the food supply, and that that's, you know, 50 times, you know, worse. You know, if if you know, who knows how much the calcium is worse, but it's worse. And so that this wasn't compared against that. I mean, these toxins were compared against glyphosate, maybe it wouldn't stand up the same way, but certainly for the pesticides at the time, like Alar, it was far worse, far worse. And so that blew me away.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And, I remember him saying to us that he didn't eat vegetables or salad. He wouldn't let his kids eat vegetables or salad because in his words, plants are trying to kill you. Why would you go knowingly go along with this? They have known toxins that they are putting there in order to kill, injure, and disrupt animals trying to eat them. You don't just walk into something like that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You need to understand that and understand what's going on. So I just completely stopped eating plants at that point, and I defaulted into just eating eggs and meat. I didn't think about it as doing a specific diet. I just my my entire litmus test was like, is the plant? Not a chance.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That that was it. That was it. If it came from a plant, I was not gonna eat it. And, you know, mushrooms would be in that too. So plants are fungus.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And that was it. And I I've never felt better in my entire life. I had never performed better, played better, had better, you know, better results scholastically. It was, it was just an absolute night and day difference. When I was playing, professionally in England, I sort of slipped off of this because some of the meat was breaded, and I just sort of convinced myself, wow, dose makes the poison, so maybe it's not all that big of a deal.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And it's like, yeah, dose does make the poison, but the dose is really small. It is not much. And that was enough, just a little bit of breading on some of the chicken a few days a week, that was enough to really curtail my performance and how I felt. I had a lot more inflammation and joint pain, back sore. Was like, going on?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:What's wrong with my body? I'm just falling apart. I didn't have any of this stuff. You get injuries, things like that. But I wasn't just achy and sore all the time for years.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:I mean, for five years, as a high end athlete, that's unheard of that you're not just constantly achy and sore. And all of a sudden, was again, so I thought there was something wrong. I thought I was getting injured. I thought these these little pulled muscles in a pulled groin. I thought there was, like, some sort of injury that just wasn't going away and I might need surgery because this thing is just not resolving.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Was just a pulled groin. It was nothing, but it just had this sort of pain lingering on. And I didn't understand it because it hadn't been there for so many years. And, so I sort of slipped off at that point. That was the worst thing is this when you reintroduce something, you've convinced yourself that it's okay.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Now you convince yourself that other things are okay as well. And I sort of went back to how I was raised with a very meat focused omnivorous diet. Very clean, never ate processed food, junk fooding. That's the other thing. It's the only reason that people get benefits by going carnivores because they get rid of all the junk food.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:I never ate junk food, Never eaten junk food, more than, like, one meal every so often. I mean, I think I've had Kentucky Fried Chicken. I I could count on one hand how many times I've had Kentucky Fried Chicken. You know what I mean? So Popeyes, I'd have to count on two hands.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:But, you know, know, still not much. And so, you know, never never never was big into processed food. And and so many other people are coming from clean omnivorous diets, clean keto diets, clean vegetarian or vegan diets, massively improving when they do this. That's just a nonsense. And so eating very cleanly, mostly meat, but lean meat because you're supposed to eat lean meat, and just eating a salad because you're supposed to eat a stupid salad.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That was basically my diet for another twelve years after that until I sort of came across information that showed that, well, hold on a second. Well, humans actually are carnivores. Mean, because we're we're we've been apex predators for millions of years. Apex predators by definition eat a lot of meat. Right?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Because they're apex predators, you know, so you need to be a predator. You you don't get the you you don't you're not a predator of grass or cabbage. Right? It's we're talking about predating other animals. So, And that's just our biological history.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:If you look at any species, what they should be eating is what they've been eating the longest, and that's what should be the most beneficial for them. We know this for animals in the zoo. We've forgotten this with our pets, but we have definitely erased that for our own selves. But that made sense to me. I said, Hold on a second.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That's what I was doing for five years. I wasn't eating anything except meat and eggs. I even asked myself, was like, oh, should I be taking a multivitamin or eat a banana every now and then for the vitamins? But I remember thinking to myself, well, I feel good and my gums aren't bleeding, so let's just see what happens. Let's just ride this And
Chris Hall:I think that that kinda brings up the point. It's like, you were, like, not only eating this way, but you were performing at a high level of athletics too. Right? It's like, I think people, you know, they think like, I need this stuff because I need that energy. I need the I need the sugar.
Chris Hall:I need the carbohydrates. I need it to kinda perform. But, like, here you are in a carnivore diet performing at one of the highest levels. I mean, rugby Mhmm. I played football for nine years.
Chris Hall:Rugby is Yes. Way beyond football. It is so cardiovascular intense and so aerobically and aerobically Mhmm. Intense. And so the fact that you weren't eating any sort of carbohydrates during that time, you know, I think that kinda puts to rest that you need them.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Oh, yeah. Definitely not. No. Yes. It isn't I always sort of thought about it as endurance sprinting.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You know? You have to it's just it's a dead sprint the whole time, and you have to just keep going. You just have to keep sprinting the whole time, especially for my position. I played, like, open side flanker in number eight. So that was a especially then because now they've sort of changed changed how how things were played a little bit.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:But back then, if you were playing number seven or number eight, you had to just be up and down the field, back and forth, just hitting everything all the time. You know, I was I was making more tack literally more tackles than anybody else on the field by by a country mile. And I I didn't actually like other people making the tackles. I wanted to hit every single person every time. And so, you know, I'd just go smash someone, get up, and just go headhunting and just try to get the next guy and the next guy and the next guy.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So it was you know, I'd I'd dead sprint to smash somebody, pop up, dead sprint to the next guy, and smash them too. And that was that was it. I that was how I played for ninety minutes. And, yeah, you
Chris Hall:can't And for years. And for years too.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:For years. For years and years. Yeah. And so yeah. As a as a carnivore for for five years and, you know, playing at a very high level.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so all highest levels in in North America, I was playing just sort of internationally, played in The US and Canada and England and, you know, various tours in other countries as well. For sevens and fifteens, sevens is even more of a track meet because that's, like, the same size field, which is actually wider than a than a standard American football field. It's it can be 40 to 60 meters wide. Wow. And so it's actually can be be wide as hell, so depending on on the field.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And then a hundred meters long. So instead of a hundred yards, a bit longer. And in sevens, like normal rugby has 15 players. Sevens is as its name just, you know, sort of suggests, it's only seven players. So you have the players on the same size field.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So it's just wide open space. It changes the whole dynamic of the game. So you're not the same sort of tactics. And you just got you have one guy and you've got all this space. You've gotta really cover a lot of space, and they've got to cover you too.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So it's just a dead sprint the whole time. It's just like a track So if you needed carbs to do that, that wouldn't work. So I played it you know, all the highest levels, you know, know, select sides with The US is, you know, getting it looked at for, you know, selection to the US national team as well. And, you know, sort of just just on the cusp of that as well. So, you know, if you needed, you know, if you needed carbohydrates to do these sorts of things, it it would never have happened.
Chris Hall:Right. Well and I wanna mention I wanna go back to, like, you had mentioned with Liam Hemsworth. Mhmm. Like, how did they ultimately find out that it was the smoothie that was causing the problems?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:I I believe the main well, you know, you have different sorts of thing. I mean, we do know about oxalate poisoning. It's it it isn't it's been actually been in the medical literature for hundreds of years. You you actually see this going back quite a way. I mean, there's nutritionists like Adele Davis a hundred years ago who said you never eat raw spinach.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:In fact, there's a lot of people for for hundreds of years saying you never eat raw produce at all whatsoever because you have to cook it, denature it, you know, cook it, ferment it, mix it with different chemicals like lye, and all these other sorts of things to denature and and and, lower the toxic load of these of these plants and make their nutrients more bioavailable. That's another way plants defend themselves. They just lock up their nutrients and vitamins in ways that we don't have the enzymes to break down, which is how you know we're not designed to eat them because we don't have the machinery to to actually extract these nutrients without fermentation or cooking or all these other sorts of things. You can eat raw meat and get absolutely everything out of it. So this was this has been known for a very long time.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It's only very recently said, oh, yeah. Raw food, this, that, and the other. We've never done that. We've never done that. And it's not good to do that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:If you are gonna eat plants, you need to cook them. You need to ferment them. You need to denature them. Do the things that we've these traditional recipes that go back thousands of years. There's a reason they exist is because they can lower the toxic load of these plants, and that's why we prepared them in that way.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So spinach, for example, was never eaten raw, ever. Right? Well, it was recommended never to eat it raw anyway. You would poach it in milk and the calcium would leach out the oxalates because oxalates bind to calcium, they bind to other minerals as well. People may know that if you have like rust on the side of your house, get rust stains on your clothes or something like that, you put a little bit of oxalic acid, oxalates in the water and spinach has oxalates in the form of oxalic acid.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so put oxalic acid in water, then you scrub or wash the rust area with that, just strips it right off, just comes right off. That's because the oxalic acid binds to the iron and just goes away. It does that in your body too, so it strips out iron from your bloodstream, it strips out iron from your food so you can't absorb it. It also does this with calcium. There was a study in, I think it was 1950s, they gave people and this is the thing, you put these things through a mass spectrometer, can see, wow, spinach has a lot of calcium, good source of calcium.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Or is it? So they gave a bunch of spinach to people and checked their calcium levels. In fact, calcium levels went down even though there's a lot of calcium in spinach. That's because the calcium is not bioavailable. It's bound up in ways that we don't have the enzymes to break down, so we can't access those nutrients.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It doesn't matter if they're in there, they're not going to get in here, and that's the important thing. And it's also very high in oxalates, oxalic acid. And so that gets into your bloodstream, causes a lot of damage, can crystallize in these little sharp needle like projections, which actually damage tissue and like your kidneys and binds to calcium, and it can strip it out. So now your calcium levels are going down, and then you have to leach calcium off your bones in order to keep your serum levels of calcium up because if your calcium levels goes too far down, your heart stops and you die. So it's better to sacrifice your bones than your heart.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so this is well known, well described. I learned this, I mean, my second year as a doctor, I was doing an ER rotation and a young woman came in with kidney stones. And was talking to the attending about this, and it was just that Ask her She eats a lot of spinach. Spinach are really high in oxalates, seventy five percent of kidney stones are calcium oxalate stones. And so a lot of people eat a ton of spinach because they think it's healthy, they get these kidney stones.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so that's a very common thing. So with Liam, I think he had massive, massive kidney stones that ended up having to get surgically resected. So yeah. Wow. But people have just flat out died from from acute oxalate poisoning.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That's in the So
Chris Hall:I'm assuming kale is in the same category as spinach. Like, that's another, like, real standard for the smoothies and the juicers and stuff like that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the funny thing about kale is there's all sorts of different toxins in kale, tongs, and oxalates are one of them, but there's so many more. I mean, plants just don't use one toxin at a time. They can use dozens or hundreds or thousands.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So there's a lot for them to choose from. Some of them are gonna be much more prevalent than others. So you have the nightshade family, potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, peppers. They're called solanaceous plants, so they have solanine and lectins, which are another category of plant toxins. There's thousands of different kinds of lectins, that's a category.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They can cause a lot of damage. Mean this is belladonna, deadly nightshade, tobacco, these are examples of the nightshade family. But potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, these are nightshades, but they're new world nightshades. You know, you go back to Roman times, they're like, never eat nightshades. These are bad.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You don't eat nightshades. Nightshades are toxic. And then when the European colonists and explorers came to America, they found there was agriculture in certain areas. It wasn't completely widespread over both continents. That's a myth.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:People say like, oh, well people were eating potatoes in very select areas. That was not that was not broadly broadcast over the entire entirety of both continents. So in those areas like Mesoamerica, which is where this was thought to originate, they did eat these things. And and they noticed them, they were like, woah, they're eating nightshades. What the hell is that?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And they brought those back as curiosities as just like, look at this weird ass plant. I mean, think about it. A tomato is a weird ass looking plant. Like, that's not that's not a normal plant. So it wasn't a very normal European plant.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They brought that back as a curiosity. Look at this strange plant. And we, you know, we keep, you know, rhododendrons and other sort of highly toxic plants because we think they're pretty, but you don't eat them. They're they're a decoration. Right?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And then they started noticing, well, these people are eating these things actually. You know, it's usually out of necessity. You know, the the wealthy would could afford meat, so they would eat meat. But, you know, other peoples that, you know, maybe not could not afford this, but but they did in very specific ways. You know?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Did you notice that up until, like, the two thousands, no one ate potatoes unless they were peeled? You got a baked potato, people gut out the inside of it and usually leave the skin. And then all of a sudden, you know, TGI Fridays came out with potato skins, and that became like a, you know, like a thing you could order. And it was, like, loaded up with, like, cheese and sour cream and bacon. They're like, oh, potato skins aren't that bad.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Those are throwaway items. They usually toss those out because they were no good because that's barrier protection. That's where majority of these lectins and toxins and solanine is. From the beginning, we would peel these things because that's what the natives did. You peel them off.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It would only be ripe. If they got green, you wouldn't touch them because they were exposed to sunlight, so all of a sudden it was hitting that. So they'd get green because they'd start making chlorophyll, but that triggered the plant to say, Hey, we're exposed. Something can eat us. We need to be more poisonous or start upping up the toxicity of the tomato, or sorry, the potato.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Or if the root starts growing through, I'm sure your mom told told you, my mom did anyway, you have to cut out the eye. You can't just cut off the root. You have to cut out the whole eye or just throw the whole thing out. Right. Because it's it's much more toxic at that level.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Right? And so we learned this from the natives. We used this up until literally, you know, twenty years ago. I remember this. TGI Friday came out with potato skins.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They're like, no one had potato skins. That was a thing that that, like, in the back of the restaurant, when they would have these potato skins, they were, like, sort of just throwing them away. So so people, like, worked in the restaurant, in the kitchen, they just sort of they'd cook prepare them for themselves because it was just they were gonna throw it away otherwise. And they started saying, well, these are actually pretty good, so why don't we sell these to people? And and and then
Chris Hall:My grandparents my grandparents went to a restaurant, and we did twice baked potatoes, which was basically where you take the potato out, and then you kinda mixture it with cheese and sour cream and stuff like that, put it back in the potato skin. So but, I mean, I think still people really, in general, didn't eat the skins. Like, some people did because they eat everything, but Mhmm. Even then, it was more of, like, it was just sort of a display item than it was a Yep. An actual food item.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. And and that there's a reason for that is because there are more toxins in the skin. And so and and this is this is why, you know, I mean, in the navy, I mean, if you had if you've gotten in trouble, you're you're two weeks peeling potatoes. You know? That's the thing.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:True. And so the then potatoes. You know, we made tomato sauce. Oh, we've been using that for for centuries. Well, really, it only came it's a new world plant.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So you're talking about how this is a traditional food of, you know, Italy and Spain. It's it's not, actually. It's only a couple hundred years old because that's they've only had tomatoes for a couple hundred years in Europe. And but they did it in a very specific way. And the traditional way of making it right now is you only take vine ripened tomatoes because when they're picked green, they have much higher toxicity.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Even when they're ripened in the box, studies have shown that that toxicity doesn't go anywhere. It's a closed system. It can't go anywhere. The plant has to pull it out. They don't just dissolve into just harmless you know, materials.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Those toxins stay there. And this is why in my lifetime, it was it was said that you don't eat green tomatoes. Green tomatoes are poisonous. Right? And then, you know, the movie fried green tomatoes came out.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It's just an old wives' tale, you know, and it's not that big a deal. Right?
Chris Hall:Right.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And but that was for hundreds of years. Don't eat green tomatoes. They're they're harmful. So they vine ripen them. They blanch them in water to take the skin off, then they take the seeds out, and then they boil the living hell out of the pulp that's left.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That's what you do. That's that's that's tomato sauce, and that's how they would eat tomato. They weren't just eating tomatoes like apples or chopping up and putting it in a fresh salad. It was done that way to make a sauce. The skin had more toxins, it's barrier protection, and the seeds, most importantly, are the plant's baby.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And everything protects babies more than anything. So it's seeds, beans, legumes, grains, nuts, all these things are the plant's baby. This is where you typically find the highest concentration of toxins, and so they had to take that stuff out. And they had the pulp that was left over, it was fine ripened, so it at least had some reduction in the toxin, and you boil the living hell out of it. Lectins can be heat sensitive and you can get a lot of them out, not necessarily all of them, but a lot of them out through heat exposure.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So these are the things that we did to lower these toxic load. So I went on about 30 tangents there, but you're talking about kale. So kale, the interesting thing about kale is that this only showed up on the scene in about 2015. And that's because there was a lady she owned a, I don't know if she, yeah. Anyway, she's the East Coast.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:She owned a marketing firm, and she just decided one day, I'm gonna make Kale a thing. And so she got Beyonce to to wear a t shirt or a sweatshirt in one of her videos that said Kale with, like, the letters, like, from Yale. You You know, they went to, like, kale university and things like that. You see peep you'll see rejects wearing this thing every now and then, you know, with that stupid shirt. But doing that and then getting people to talk about it and, like, getting it in, you know, high end fancy restaurants in Manhattan and elsewhere.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It's like, oh, kale. Kale. Kale. And they had this ad campaign, so, like, different, you know, little talk shows and morning shows. Oh, kale.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It's kale's a new thing. They're being paid to do this. This is this is a marketing effort. Right? And then it sort of grew on its own.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And but it was, like, 02/2015. I hadn't even heard of a plant called kale before 02/2015, and that's what it is. Very interestingly, the number one purchaser and buyer of kale prior to this was actually Pizza Hut. And it was not to use in for any food substance. It was used to line the outside of the salad bar, not for the salad.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. Just to line the salad bar to make it look all green and fresh and things like that. You don't eat that crap. It's just like yard yard with that. Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. So they were the they were the major purchasers. And the thing was that we tried actually feeding kale to livestock, but they had to stop because it was so toxic. So they used to give kale to sheep, and it started causing stillbirths, birth defects, birth deformities, they'll get very sick. They get goiters.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Goiter is an enlarged thyroid because it's dysfunctional and it's trying, your brain's sending a lot of thyroid stimulating hormone down to your thyroid. It's like, you need to make more thyroid, but it can't produce it. So it's growing big, big, big, big, big because it's trying really hard, but it's not actually able to produce any thyroid hormone because of these, they're called goitrogens. They cause goiters and kale is full of So there's an entire category of plant toxins called goitrogens and kale is full of them. So this was causing massive goiters.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It was killing the babies. They were getting congenital hypothyroidism, which can be very serious deformities, mental retardation in humans and animals, and death. And I've seen pictures of these poor little things, these lambs being born dead with a goiter the size of their head. It's just this big thing sticking out. And people can look up a goiter, g o I t r e, on the Internet, look for for pictures of that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It's it's quite confronting this big this big lump there. And and so I said, okay. Well, we can't do that because the thing is is, you know, livestock, that's money. Right? You start killing animals, you know, that doesn't work.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Okay. That stops. And but you give it to people, people are basically worthless. And so it doesn't have to just give it to them all they want. We're selling it to them.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:The end product doesn't matter if they if they grew up well, but you have specific end points. Like if the those animals don't get healthy into weight and they're not having kids, you're losing money. The whole enterprise is losing money, so that has to stop. So they look at this very closely, and you can have actually very, very clear randomized controlled trials with thousands and thousands and thousands of individuals that are closely related and separate them and do one thing differently and see the results. Human nutritional sciences are a joke.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Animal nutritional sciences are extremely robust. So we gave kale to sheep, disaster. So we stopped doing that, started giving kale to dairy cows because they they require a ton of feed to to make the amount of milk that I mean, sometimes sometimes you do like upwards of a hundred gallons of milk in a day per cow. Right? So it's a lot of milk that they're producing, so you need a lot of feed.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And they started giving that to dairy cows, and the milk from the dairy cows were giving the people who drank it goiters. So they had to stop that too. So goitrogenic. And so they just said, well, okay. We can't give it to sheep.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We can't give it to cows because you know, we can't give it to sheep because it kills the sheep. We can't give it to cows because the, you know, the milk causes goiters in people. So screw it. Just give it to people. You know?
Chris Hall:Let's let let Beyonce sell it to people.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Well, that's it. You know? Because the thing is is, like, that that's why no one ate kale, wasn't fed to animals, and the major purchaser of it was Pizza Hut. Right? And then this this lady, you know, had this sort of vegan bent and just just wanted to push kale.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:She just wanted to make it a thing. Yeah. Whether she was being paid to her or not, I don't know, but but that was where that came from. But it it's a it's a highly toxic plant. It's not something you actually wanna eat.
Chris Hall:So what about like, we talked about a little bit about smoothies, right, and oxalates and stuff like that. So what about, like, places, like, where you go and you get your cold pressed juice or like Mhmm. I don't know much about juice, but I just know, like, there's juice, and now there's cold pressed juice, and it's but I mean, typically, the major categories are, like, kale, spinach, things like that. And then they use fruit like, make it taste so you can actually drink it, which is one of reasons I've always sort of stayed away from it. But anyway, tell me what you think about juice.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Well, you think about it. If you if you juice a plant, if you juice those vegetables and you don't put in something sweet like fruit or just, you know, straight up sweeteners and sugars and things like that, It tastes awful, and it's absolutely ghastly how bitter and awful it is. Why do we think that we have that natural instinct to abhor the taste of something that is good for us. Why would we be designed to hate the taste of something that's good for us? Now things can taste good because there are very clever scientists that have taken advantage of something called evolutionary traps, which we have this little signal of this thing that, oh, that's a good thing.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We wanna eat that. They take that. They magnify it. They change that. You ever seen these things as natural flavorings?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:There's nothing natural about They're mimicking natural flavors. So it's this litany of chemicals that taste kinda like orange. That's what they mean by natural flavors, is it is it tastes natural, tastes like something you would find in nature as opposed to Wow. Like a Coke or something like that. It's just its own thing.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It doesn't mean there's anything natural in there. And so that that's something that really pulls people. Oh, it's natural flavor, so it's it's gotta be natural. Well, first of all, arsenic's natural. Those goiter gins and kale are natural.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So natural is not, you know, the the the bar you wanna you wanna set this by, but there's nothing natural about them. So, I mean, there you can even see it. It was on sixty minutes, a while ago. And they were interviewing these food scientists, and they say, yeah. What we do is we isolate these these little chemical compounds that give this, you know, good this tastes good signal, and then we change it and modify it so it gives it even bigger taste response, and it goes away really quickly.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So you want the next chip, the next bite, the next drink. Right? So it causes compulsion. You compulsively eat. So we have very clever food scientists that are making things taste good that shouldn't, but if something tastes bad, that's a pretty good indication that your body's trying to warn you against eating it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Deer don't go around eating the shitty tasting leaves. The wallets aren't sitting there going like, oh, I hate this. I just don't wanna eat this anymore. They love it. They enjoy it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Have you ever seen a cow come out on like really fresh green grass? Their eyes are bugging out of their head. They're just chomping away at it. They're really, really happy that they're eating this stuff. Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so it doesn't taste bitter to them. If it did, they wouldn't eat it because that would be an indication that that could kill them. Even cows. I mean, cows eat eat grass and plants their entire lives, and they're very healthy doing that, but they only eat very specific plants because other plants will kill them too. And there's an entire field of veterinary medicine that talks about this sort of stuff.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:All these different diseases like big head, big tongue, limp neck, crazy cow syndrome, those are all names of diseases that these livestock animals can get. But it's well known and described that this is actually caused by eating the wrong plant and becoming toxic from that plant. And so the treatment is getting the hell away from that plant. You have certain plants that are in there, you take them out, you pick them, you get them the hell out of there. Normally they won't really eat them, but it's like a younger cat doesn't really know, Oh, what's this?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It's new. Take a bite of of it, and that's enough. They get very sick or they die. You know? And so, you know, that's that's that's well known, and yet we we forget that or we've we've had that forgotten for us that these plants have toxins, and those toxins can cause a problem.
Chris Hall:So is there, like I mean, I feel like I'm loading the question up. But is there, like, any, like, juices that people should be drinking?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Well, yeah. I mean, meat juice, you know, must I drink blood? That works really well for them. They're healthy as hell. You know, average six foot three, six foot four adult male height, that's a hell of lot taller than anybody else around.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Post agriculture, pre agriculture, that's par for the course. You know? Yeah. And you there's a there's a well, in some area, if you go back far enough, you know, especially when they're, like, hunting, you know, mammoths and things like that, they were, like, six two, six three, six four average. And there's a study that was published in 02/2001 called Tallest in the World, and they looked at original source material of actually a study that was done in the late eighteen hundreds with the Native Americans in the Great Plains.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They found that people in the Great Plains who traditionally were eating a bunch of bison in wild game, because they could eat bison the entire year, the bison herds would come through. They'd scare a portion of those over a cliff. They'd all crash and burn. They'd have food for the year. They'd dry it up and make pemmican, and it was it was a high fat mixture.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They'd take all the fat that they had, and sometimes, you know, you you they they would waste the lean, but they wouldn't wouldn't waste the or not waste, but, know, they wouldn't use the lean, but they would always use the fat. And so they mix up this this dried powdered meat, and they'd mix it up with rendered fat, And that would make it two grams of fat to one gram of protein. So it's actually 80% calories from fat, and they would eat this the entire year. And so they were very, very healthy with this. They didn't get any of the chronic diseases that Europeans got, and they were way taller.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So in the late eighteen hundreds, they looked at this and they looked at the people in the Great Plains. They found that as a whole, the people in the Great Plains were the tallest human beings alive on earth. And in fact, in some places like the Cheyenne, they were even taller than that. And so they were on average five foot ten adult male height, whereas the European stock were down at five five, five four, you know, or less. And now it's five eight in America.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Average adult male height is five eight. You have like Netherlands, they might be like five ten, five eleven, depending on what you look at. But the really interesting thing is that they eat a lot of meat in in in Denmark. But the really interesting thing about that study is that in that original source data, it said that the older generations of the Cheyenne and Plains Indians that they that they were measuring their height up to make the average, that, like, the grandfathers and great grandfathers, they were way taller than the fathers and the sons. And so they said if they'd done this study fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, that average would be way higher than five ten.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And that's because when they did that study, that was already after the bison had been wiped out and they were put on reservations. So they said this was you're looking at the transition point, the inflection point from pre agricultural society to a post agricultural society, and they shrank immediately, and they've continued to shrink since then, and started getting all these chronic diseases that we get in Western countries, and they're actually much more prevalent because they're genetically predisposed to them because they haven't had 10,000 of agriculture in their past. Mesoamerica, sure, not in the great plains of North America. And so our European ancestors and other places around the world, agriculture came up independently in about seven points around the world at different times. But if you're not descended from one of those people, then you're not gonna have genetic adaptation, at least partially dealing with these toxins for the last several thousand years.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So they're getting hit with this right in the face. And I mean, was told this, I mean, was on the news when I was a kid. I remember hearing this and it really confused me because it said when eating a Western diet, native Americans are four times as likely to get all the chronic diseases we get, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, autoimmunity, all the rest. I remember thinking to myself, I was like, well, doesn't that mean the food is causing the disease?
Chris Hall:Because we
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:eat the food and we eat we get the disease. We just get it at a lower rate. And if they don't eat the food, they don't get the disease. You know? We get it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We get this too. So, you know, what were they eating that we we weren't vice versa? It's a Western diet. What the hell did that mean? Well, no one said it at the time, but they were carnivores.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They were just eating meat. They weren't eating a lot of plants, if any. And so this is well described in current anthropological textbooks and papers that pre agricultural societies alive right now do not get any chronic diseases or any problems like that, and they absolutely live as long or longer than we do in the West if they die of old age, if they get past infancy really, because there's a high infant mortality rate. So they say, Oh, well people die in their sixties. Well people are getting heart attacks in their twenties and thirties now.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That's not saving anybody. And so if it was meat that was causing this, we should be seeing them getting heart attacks. Them too, they don't. They don't get any of these chronic disease. Oh, we're just living so long that we get these chronic diseases.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:No, 10 year olds are getting type two diabetes, seventeen year olds are having heart attacks, twenty six year olds are having strokes. Right. No. This is this is not the case. Well, and then, I mean, you kinda I'm sorry.
Chris Hall:You kinda mentioned, like, you know, like, they're trying to always feed the cows and the sheep, and they're starting to feed this stuff. I've noted like, one of the things that I kinda dawned on me a while ago was like, you know, this like lends itself to the grass fed industry, you know, the pasture raised chickens and stuff like that. Was like, well, if it's not good for me to eat soy, and corn, and flour, and all the things, rice, Like, why are you giving it to the animal that I'm gonna eat? It's not good for them either. We now know that that's not good for them either.
Chris Hall:Mhmm. But, like, you know, people's, oh, it's so expensive for grass fed.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And it's like, well, it
Chris Hall:is if you go to, like, the most expensive market and try to get out of your butcher, but like if you find the local guy who's growing, you know, cattle or whatever, they're they're usually pretty reasonable. You just might have to order a half a cow or something. So I mean, what do you think about that?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Oh, absolutely. And that's the thing, know, when when any animal eats what it's not designed to eat, it can have problems, either not getting the the requisite nutrition or it's gonna be exposed to these these toxins. You know, we put cows in feedlot because it it it causes, you know, insulin resistance and diabetes and fat deposition, because as you eat carbohydrates, your insulin goes up and insulin is the fat storage hormone. So the higher your insulin goes, the more fat you store in your muscles, subcutaneous tissue around your organs. In your organs, we wonder about non alcoholic fatty liver disease that just sort of showed up since the nineties.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And we're like, oh, what's going on here? There's always alcoholics before this. And it's just like, okay, well, how do you get it in a duck? How do you make foie gras? You stick
Chris Hall:a
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:tube down their throat and you pour in grains, right? So people are pouring grains down their own throat. They don't even need a feeding tube. And we wonder, we wonder what's going on. Well, have high insulin, you're gonna get fat deposition throughout your body.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You get myosteotosis, which is fatty deposition inside the muscles. I mean, a bodybuilder say, Yo, you need carbs to bulk up. No, you're eating carbs. And yes, you can put glycogen and pull water into your muscle as well, but that's not muscle. But you're also depositing fat.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You're getting myosteotosis. And That's why it has a name, myosteotosis. And myosteotosis is strongly associated with severe metabolic dysfunction and chronic disease, and all sorts of other problems. Pain, if you have myosteotosis down the paraspinal muscles, we see that on a spinal MRI, that's a much higher association with back pain. And I saw at a conference of spinal surgery, they discussed that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And they said, if you're evaluating a patient for fixation, fusing the spine because they're in a whole bunch of pain, all sorts of stuff, if they have myosediotosis, a lot of myosediotosis in those muscles, they have very, very, very poor outcomes as far as pain is concerned. Almost never cures their pain. So there's something else, metabolic issues there, that's myosteatosis, that comes from carbohydrates. And in cows, we call that marbling. How do we get marbling?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We give them a whole bunch of grains and that raises their insulin and you get fat deposition in the muscles. Like this is not new. We know this, we do this, we utilize this to our advantage from a culinary perspective. But it's you know, what we're doing it to ourselves, and we have no idea. Oh, we don't know why someone has myosteatosis.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We see this association with people who are metabolically sick. Yeah. Because carbs make you metabolically sick, and it also causes you to deposit fat. But yeah. So know, And Wagyu.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah.
Chris Hall:Supposed to be like it's supposed to be the pre premium cut of meat, but it's because they give it beer and grain, like, nonstop.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That's it. And and we're eating pizza and beer, and and we wonder why we're fat. You know? But it's vegetarian. And, obviously, you know, it's low fat.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Everything's fine. You know? So it we've just been we've just been completely, fooled by the food and drug companies who have just been telling us for decades that fat is the enemy, meat is the enemy because it protects their products, because their processed food products are what were destroying people's health. And they're like, well, can't have that. And so they they paid off a bunch of people to make people look in the other direction.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And this is not a guess, this is not a conspiracy theory, this is a published fact. The Journal of the American Medical Association, JAMA, one of the top medical journals in the world, They published actual internal memos in 2016, actual internal memos from the sugar companies back in the 60s and beyond, detailing how they were paying off professors from Harvard and elsewhere to falsify data and publish fraudulent studies to make it appear as if cholesterol caused heart disease, when it's much more likely to be sugar. There's a big debate going on for decades about whether it was cholesterol or sugar. And one of those professors from Harvard was named head of the USDA, and he was the one who authored and published the USDA declaration in the late seventies saying that cholesterol causes heart disease, end of story. And that changed everything.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So we stopped eating fatty meat, which we'd been seeking and searching for and going after since humans have been humans, because now it was causing a disease that had never existed prior to that century in any real numbers. Do you know the first confirmed death from a heart attack in America proven on autopsy was in 1912? Wow. And did you know that in 1920s, it became the number one killer in America, and we were eating less meat in the nineteen twenties than we were in 1912. And we were eating the and in fact, in the nineteen twenties and thirties, we're eating the least amount of meat in two hundred years of American history.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So prior to that, we were eating far more meat, far more fat, butter and lard. Sea oils didn't exist. Crisco didn't exist before, and that came on the market in 1911. That was a machine lubricant that was developed by the German military to lubricate their U boats and tanks. And then Procter and Gamble bought the technology of of of hydrogenating vegetable oils and seed oils and just said, yeah, we can just feed this to people, you know, and they'll just eat it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You And it was absolutely mad. It's just, you know, they it's the funniest thing. Know? I mean, you even have it now. You have this thing called grass, generally recognized as safe.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And So the FDA doesn't even look at it. Well, it's GRAS, so don't worry about it. They don't decide what's generally recognized as safe or not. The industry gets to put their own label on it and they say, Yeah, well this is generally recognized as safe, so don't worry about it FDA. No problem, guys.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You're so good saving us work. That's insane. You know, this is a regulatory body that is in in theory there to protect people, but no. They're they're actually protecting corporate interest because they get 66% of their budget from those corporations. And people don't know that, but that's actually the case.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And then there's this revolving door. People that are high up in the FDA do all these little deals for drug companies, food and drug companies. As soon as they finish at the FDA, bam, they're on some executive board somewhere getting paid millions by that company that they were making billions for. It's an absolute con game. And the fact that these industries are allowed to say what's generally recognized as safe or not is absurd.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so they basically get to put anything into our food supply, any additive, any of this, you know, beauvair, all that sort of nonsense. We just said, nah. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Right.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:How do you know that? Did we test it at all? We didn't test Crisco. We never we never that was never shown to be safe. You know?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:But well, but is heart healthy? And the American Heart Association supports it and says it's heart healthy. So obviously they wouldn't just say that, would they? Except that the American Heart Association is a private organization. It's just like, I think I believe it was like five cardiologists.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Now heart disease is just becoming so prevalent. They're like, oh, we should probably have a society for this one disease that never existed before. And so they made the American Heart Association. It's a very obscure little group, a couple of guys playing D and D in their basement or something like that. I mean, it was just like, it was not, it was a very obscure sort of group, but they were the first ones to do it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And all of a sudden, they blew up to national prominence because they got this huge influx of of money, of cash. Right. And that was because Procter and Gamble paid them the equivalent of $20,000,000 in today's currency to just make a blanket statement saying that Crisco and vegetable oils, polyunsaturated fats were heart healthy good for your heart, and that butter and lard and animal fats, bad for your heart. Based on no evidence, there was no study, there was no science, there was no data, there wasn't even like a survey. It was nothing.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It was purely their just a statement. And that launched them to national prominence. They were able to to to do whatever they wanted. So they they have their origins in fraud and being bribed. And that it didn't stop there.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Okay. Well, now now we got it, so we'll we'll do it right this time. No. They don't. They don't do that.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Right. They they are known to have been paid off by the sugar companies and the processed food companies multiple times after that. They misrepresented the Framingham study, which I was taught in medical school. Almost every medical professional was taught in I was a pharmaceutical rep
Chris Hall:for ten years. Was huge for us too.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So the the the Framingham study, which is which is an epidemiological study, It's a prospective cohort study, not an interventional trial, not a prospective interventional trial. You're just following a bunch of people and seeing what happens and trying to make some correlations with things. And what I was taught, I'm sure what you were taught and then taught people was that increased cholesterol was associated with higher cardiovascular disease mortality rate, and vice versa, lower was lower. But that's actually not what it found. The actual original Framingham study actually showed the opposite, that as you lowered total cholesterol, cardiovascular disease mortality rates went up.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And that was what was the original data. And then the American Heart Association misrepresented that and came out and said, oh, look at the Framingham study. It showed cholesterol going up is associated with cardiovascular disease. Now correlation is not causation, but there isn't even a correlation. And so they lied.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Two years later, they published that. And that's what got into the textbooks and that's what got into to our classrooms. That has since been published since by think it by Ravenscopf et al. They actually showed that the original data did not show that. That that and that's been published in the last ten years, that that was completely misrepresented.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So,
Chris Hall:I'm aware of this too, because, again, I, like, lived I sold Lipitor, which was a, you know, the number one prescribed statin at the time. And we had a little cube that showed, like, as your blood pressure went up and your cholesterol went up, your heart disease went up with this little, you know, cue that we had to hand people. And I mean, we know it's not true now. You know what I mean? We know it's not And yet, I still go to my doctor, and he still says, your cholesterol is too high, you need to be on a statin.
Chris Hall:And I think, like, how do we how do this information still not make it to them? Well, tell them, like, hey, there's a study or there's a guy or whatever, they look at you like, oh, well, you're just getting Internet. You're you're going to an Internet doctor. You know? It's like, don't take it serious.
Chris Hall:But I'm like, well, it's still studies.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. Well, tell them to yeah. Just what's going on there? Tell them what happened there. Can you hear me alright?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. Yeah. You dropped for a second. So That was weird. Okay.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So, yeah. Well, you know, that's the funny thing is that, you know, our our education system in in medicine and otherwise are is is completely controlled by the food and drug companies completely. And and so after post graduation, is as well. So when you're going to a residency, this is dictated by the drug companies and things like that. And that's how we're taught.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Here's a problem, here's a pill. And it's just a matching game, you know? Yeah, you have this problem, or you have this problem, ramipril, it's just like, that's all there is, you know? And you have, okay, you start with an ACE inhibitor and then you go to this and this and this, and you go down the list on all these different sorts of things to try to fix the problem with a drug. Well, problems didn't come about because they had a deficiency.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Like Cholesterol is not a statin deficiency. High blood pressure is not a ramipril deficiency. Diabetes is not a metformin deficiency. These are not caused by a deficiency in something. Some things are.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Hypothyroidism, you get your thyroid removed, you just need to take thyroid. You have type one diabetes, if you destroyed your beta cells, your beta islet cells, will need to use an appropriate amount of insulin. There are issues that are like that, but we've been fooled into thinking they're all like that. That we have these problems, and oh now there's a new problem, now there's that problem. Why is it a new problem?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Why why didn't this problem ever come before? Well, it's just one of those things. Let's try to find a drug. These smart people have figured out a drug for it. It didn't exist twenty years ago.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:So why don't we instead of looking for a drug to fix this problem that never existed before, why don't we try to figure out what changed to cause the problem in the first place? Wouldn't that be smarter? And so but the problem is we don't get taught like that. We don't get taught to think like that. My great grandfather was still to date the youngest ever graduate from Columbia Medical School.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:He was 20 years old. And that was in the late 1800s. He was the second class at Columbia ever taught sterile practice. This was five years after anesthesia came on market. So he was on the ground floor of modern surgery, where you could actually ethically open up the thorax and the abdomen, and without killing them and just being a torturous event and killing them with almost guaranteed sepsis.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And that's how they approach things then. Okay, happened? How do we figure out what's going on? And then we have this complete change in how we know, we had things started becoming corporatized and pharmaceuticals, and then you just started getting drugs that were just you know, they figured out that know, who knows exactly when this happened? But there was a point where the drug companies figured out that, you know, just make a drug that just fixes something and alleviates pain or whatever.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:If you get something that like the birth control pill, for example, you can give this to them and then they just take it. They just keep taking it and keep taking and keep taking and keep taking and keep taking it. You make a lot more money. And if you now are just treating things from a chronic point of view, you're not trying to cure anything. You're not trying to get rid of anything.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You're just trying to treat a symptom and you treat those symptoms for the rest of their life. Then you have a customer for life. It's it's it's, you know, drug dealer one zero one. You have to cook them early and then you you keep them forever. And so, you know, there was a there was a leaked set of missives from Goldman Sachs and they said, is curing someone of a disease a viable business model?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And the answer was of course no, because you don't wanna cure anybody of a disease, you wanna treat the disease so that they can live with that disease for the rest of their life. And that's a very, very lucrative situation. So you're just treating people like chattel. You're just something you can enslave and just make money on for the rest of their life, which is which is a sick sort of, you know, slave master sort of mentality. And I
Chris Hall:love that analogy. I think that's a very, very right on analogy. We are beholden to our corporate overlords.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Mhmm.
Chris Hall:You know, we're paying a third of our money to a half of our money in taxes, and the rest goes to the corporations, and maybe we have a little bit left over.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. And paying for all these drugs and things like that. I mean, you know, you know, people go into bankruptcy for their medical expenses and things like that. And and and a lot of these things you don't need. You know, this is your lifestyle issues.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Do you change your lifestyle? You change your diet and your lifestyle. Not in the ways that they suggest because the way that they suggest keeps you fat, sick, and unhealthy and on their medications.
Chris Hall:Right. And I and I and I we are at an hour, so I wanna be respectful of your time. But I think a great way to end this would be and I could talk to you for hours. I mean, especially this this topic is so good to me, so interesting to me as well. But a great way to end it would be like, what are like some, like like, maybe three or four things that someone could do, like, today that would sort of ultimately change the way that their trajectory of health goes?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Well, you eat just more closely to our biological design. You know, we have a biological design. I mean, there there's a reason that there are signs at the at the park saying, you know, don't feed bread to ducks because it gives them diabetes. If it gives a duck diabetes, what do think it's doing to you? Signs of the zoo say don't feed the animals because if they don't eat their natural diet, they get very sick.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:What do they get sick with? They get obesity, heart disease, liver disease, diabetes, cancer, autoimmunity, arthritis, and osteoporosis. So we know that for animals and yet we have been blinded to that fact for ourselves. And so just go back to that, think about, okay, what have humans been eating for as long as humans have been humans? It's meat.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:You know, we've had an agricultural revolution, and that revolutionized the way we ate. If we were eating a bunch of plants before that, it wouldn't be much of a revolution, would it? And right after that, the height, health, and brain size of people dropped dramatically. Dropped on average five inches of height, 11% brain size for men, 17% average brain capacity for women, and teeth got crooked and rotten. We had signs of poor wound healing and chronic disease.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We do not see that in pre agricultural societies. Even post agriculture in pre agricultural societies, we don't see that. It's the food, it wasn't like some sort of cataclysm, just God came down and went, you're sick now. It was just those populations that started eating plants, and we saw this in real time with the Native Americans, the Australian Aboriginals, and other, the Maasai and others, and Inuit. In the last century, we saw this, the height of these three generations in the tallest in the world study showed that the older generations were taller, and then the grandfathers were the tallest, the fathers were next, and the children were shortest.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We were seeing that right there. Have Weston A. Price did a whole book on this, went to all these different native populations, saw it in real time. People in the same families were getting smaller jaws, crooked teeth, shorter stature, more health issues, And he reversed it by giving them a bunch of animal fat and meat and raw milk, because there were all these nutrients that we need for facial development that only come in animal fat. They only exist in vitamin K2, D3, those sorts of things.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They only come in animal fat, and you have to have those calcium as well and other sorts of things. But those are the main ones that we're missing, and he found you could give them that and reverse it in real time. And you had your grandfather, the biggest, strongest, healthiest, biggest jaw. The father was a bit smaller and weaker jaw. The grandson was way weaker, right?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:But you could breed back, would start doing successive generations, things like that. You start feeding them properly, the jaws start growing, the body start growing. Just look at that. I mean, it is black and white staring us in the face. As I said with anthropologists, we see pre agricultural populations, they don't get any of these chronic diseases.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We know that they live as long or longer than we do. They get none of these chronic diseases until and unless they start eating a Western diet, and then they start getting all these chronic diseases. And they go back, and the problems go away. Why are we confused about what's happening here? The only reason we're confused is because we're being made to be confused.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:We're getting a lot of people being paid influencers, and I don't get paid by any industry. You know? I just you know, I have a couple sponsors that's clearly telegraphed, you know, and and that's it. And I'm very I don't I don't accept sponsors that I don't that don't fit with my message, I generally don't do much anyway because I just don't like a bunch of ads. That's not why I'm doing this.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:But it's very clear that these people are being paid to say these things. We have multi trillion dollar companies and the food and drug companies that are spending billions of dollars. Mean, just Pepsi alone has a $2,000,000,000 marketing budget. That's why every single conference, medical conference and residency and hospital is sponsored by these people, right? Because they can pay for it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And that's why your doctor has no idea that the research has moved on with statins, because drug reps aren't coming in to say, Hey, you know all that shit that I said about statins? Just forget it, but I'd still really like it if you prescribed it because it makes me money. They're never telling that stuff. They're telling them the studies that fit their narrative. It's all cherry pick nonsense.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And get lazy. You just get so sick of studying and taking tests, you just don't wanna do it anymore, and a lot of people don't. But a lot of people do. A lot of people, if you're a responsible clinician, you stay on top of the literature in your field. So there's a lot of people that are coming around to this.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so hopefully more and more do as well. But just real quickly, what I meant to say earlier, when we were talking about how people aren't trying to cure diseases and Goldman Sachs made that clear, There was a letter from Goldman Sachs to a company called Gilead that Gilead actually came up with something when I was an intern, I was really impressed by them because they came up with a cure for hepatitis C, they actually cured it. This is a chronic disease, people had to just take drugs for the rest of their life. They cured this, right? That's amazing.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:That's what they're supposed to be doing. That's what we get told and thought that this is what these drug companies are trying to do, all these really nice scientists are trying to save the world and cure these diseases. They're not trying to do that. In fact Goldman Sachs pulled them off and said, You really messed up by curing hep c. You should never cure a disease because you give them a dose once, that's it.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:There's no more hep c. Now we can't treat hep c. Now we don't have fifty years of hep c treatments, and we lose money. So never do that again. And they basically, you suggested that if you don't make these people happy, they're not gonna invest in you.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:They're not gonna give money to you so that you can do more research and things like that. And so they're like, oh, okay. So they changed their angles. But this is not gonna come from them. We have to figure this out ourselves.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:The easiest way to do that is just look at what people would be eating. How do we know what lions should eat in the zoo? Because you see what a damn lion lion eats in the wild. Okay. How do we know what a human should eat?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:What does a human eat in the wild? What does an Inuit eat? What does a Maasai eat? What do the Nanette eat? What do the Native Americans eat before we slaughtered all the bison?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Why did we slaughter all the bison? Because it was knocking out their food supply. And in any war, you cut off the food system. You cut off the food supply and your supply lines, and the army goes away and dies. Why there over a thousand why were there over a thousand chicken farms that burned to the ground from arson a couple years ago?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Why is it that meat processing plants have been getting torched and and attacked with arson? Why are we saying that they're that cows that have always been in nature and we've had hundreds of millions of buffalo in the Great Plains Of America making it the most fertile and fecund land on earth, that that's somehow now bad for the environment. That's destroying the environment, it's destroying the ecosystem, it's destroying our natural world when it is the natural world. The natural world is plants and animals living in symbiosis. So why is that?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Because they're attacking our food systems as well. So we have this massive psyop that, and there's a guy who's a professor of psychology, and he said that he works with CIA, all these sorts of things. He said, There's all these different points. You know if something's a SIOP and being screwed up, but the one thing that is 100%, in medicine we call it pathognomonic, if you see this sign, it is that disease, there's no exceptions. That if you see this, it is a SIOP, and that's if you are not allowed to dissent or to argue with it if you say it's something else.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And so, you know, we say like, okay, well, you know, cows destroy the environment. Well, actually, if you look at it, you are a science denier. You're this, that, and the other deniers. Like, that that's a SIOP. You're being people are being silenced.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:This is not a this is not a scientific discussion. This is not trying to find what's best for people. This is a manipulation tactic. And when you want to take over an area, you cut off the food supply. That's what we did with the native Americans.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:It worked really well. Now they're on reservations, and and the land has been taken over and the bison are all dead. And it's an absolute shame that that happened. They're doing it still. You know?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:And They're good. And we need to watch out for it.
Chris Hall:Yeah. How can people get ahold of you or follow more about I'll link to your Instagram and your social medias and this podcast and stuff, but what's a good place to get ahold of you and learn more about you, Doctor. Chaffee?
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Yeah. Well, just yeah. I have my my social media. I have a YouTube channel. It's just my name, anthonychaffeemd.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:My Instagram is the same thing. And then I have a podcast, which is the Plant Free MD podcast. I do have a website, just sort of got it going. And it's just, at the moment, it's called thecarnivorelife.com. And so people can check that out.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:I'll probably have it also linked in with my name as well. But for now it's just thecarnivorelife.com and you can sort of find everything on there. I have resources there. I have papers and studies and links to other lectures and other sorts of resources as well if people want to go and take a look at this stuff as well.
Chris Hall:Perfect. And I will link that in the description for you guys, but it's the car car thecarnivorelife.com. So That's correct. I really appreciate you. This has been awesome for me, and I hope that my guests get a lot out of it as well.
Chris Hall:And I hope we, you know, ultimately, I hope we made people healthier,
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:you
Chris Hall:know, because everything that's coming at us is is, you know, pretty wrong. It's nice to hear it's nice to hear the other side. And it really just I mean, when you listen to it, it makes perfect sense. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you.
Chris Hall:And and hopefully, we'll have you back on.
Dr. Anthony Chaffee:Not a problem. Thank you very much for having me. A pleasure. Thank you.