095 | Chris Maffeo | Scaling the Unscalable: The Bottom-Up Approach to Brand Building by MAFFEO DRINKS

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

Join this episode with Shawn Soole from the Post Shift Podcast In this episode, Chris shares invaluable insights on how small brands, such as bars, restaurants, distilleries, and breweries, can effectively build their brand.

From understanding the importance of local success before expanding to managing relationships with importers and distributors, Chris breaks down the fundamentals of brand building.

They also discuss the challenges and strategies for maintaining authenticity while scaling, the role of passion versus business in the drinks industry, and navigating the complexities of the B2B2B2C market.

Whether you’re a newcomer or an established player in the beverage world, this episode is filled with actionable advice to help you succeed.

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:31 Guest Introduction: Chris Maffeo

02:04 Chris Maffeo's Background and Career Journey

04:58 Brand-Building Fundamentals

10:58 Challenges and Strategies in the Craft Spirits Industry

16:49 Scaling and Distribution Insights

19:11 Balancing Passion and Business

25:06 Entrepreneurial Advice and Future Plans

32:02 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Shawn Soole

Host | Post Shift Podcast

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia drinks
podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Mafeo.
Today we reach listeners in more

than 100 countries and I.
Want to thank you.

For being one of them.
Before we dive into today's

episode as more reminder to hit,
subscribe and leave a review to

get more drinks Builder
discovered the show.

The podcast is free, but if you
want extras like downloadable

transcripts and exclusive
insights from each episode,

visit mafiadrinks.com.
So of course, we're talking to

Chris Maffio from he's the
Bottoms Up drink builder and

host of the podcast Mafia
Drinks.

If you are a small brand,
whether you're a bar or

restaurant, a small craft
distillery, a brewery, a winery,

anything, this man's going to be
able to give you some really

good in depth knowledge on how
to build your brand up.

I've been following for a long
time and LinkedIn, we don't

actually have a prior
relationship before this.

I just love how inspirational
his LinkedIn and his PO posts

are at all times.
Really breaking down how to

build a brand properly and being
quite raw and honest.

Yes, you got that one sale, but
how do you make the second one?

So I'm really looking at having
this conversation with Chris.

Welcome, Chris.
Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.
Thank you for having me, Sean.

Pleasure.
We've been following each other

for a while and now finally we
are speaking to each other.

Well, funnily enough, back in
the pandemic days, I don't think

I'm, it's a app that sort of
came and went and I don't think

money on us to use it.
But like during the pandemic, we

had nothing to do.
We connected through Clubhouse

exactly.
And, and we were listening to

some rooms and we sort of put
out two senses.

Anyone who doesn't know what
Clubhouse is, it's still around.

It was a chat room that was
verbal and kind of fun at the

time.
We had like a good three to six

months of clubhouse relationship
there.

So that's where we suspect
because when I messaged you on

LinkedIn, the last message was
the clubhouse days.

Exactly.
I thought we had spoken more

recently and I was like, what
was it, 2021?

I said.
Well, it was 2021.

Thanks for accepting my
connection, Sean 2021.

So if everybody listening, give
me your two cents on where did

you get your start?
How did we get to the stage of

Bottoms Up, Drink Builder and
Mafia Drinks podcast and stuff

like that?
Where did you get your start?

I mean, it comes from from this
actually, I show you like this

is my great, great grandfather
and grandfather shop.

It was a wholesaler in in the
South of Italy.

The business was open for 100
years and then when he died, I

was six years old, the shop
closed.

That has left me with this
thing.

I thought about it out in in
hindsight, all that knowledge of

100 years of knowledge got lost
because nobody in the family

wanted to continue the business.
And then I wasn't.

I was a sales guy in Rome
selling to entree on premise and

bars and restaurants.
And then I started my career

agencies and then SAB Miller,
for those familiar with that it

doesn't exist anymore, was
swallowed by AB InBev and then

was purchased, You know, the
European business was purchased

by Asahi Breweries.
So I stayed in the beer world,

Then I went into Kasberg.
Throughout my career in the

corporate world, I've never
really felt a corporate type of

guy, especially because I was
always working for the export

departments of these big giants.
I was always the small guy in

the big room launching brands
with very small money in

countries where nobody knew
them.

And that has changed my
perspective.

So in a nutshell, my thinking is
driven by starting in beer.

That is very much a velocity
game.

You don't just put a bottle in
the back bar, you're putting

kegs.
And if you open that keg and if

that keg doesn't rotate, the
product goes off and then the

bar owner shouts at you and
deletes you.

So I've always thought grow
rotation before distribution.

This is my first thing.
The other thing was that I was

working with exports.
So it's always like working with

wholesalers, third parties.
And I've always been thinking

all these beautiful messages
that the marketing department,

global teams are making and
doing, it doesn't resonate.

You know, that game like the
phone game that you know, you

pass the, you know, you whisper
the, the word in the year of

the, of the next one, It gets
lost throughout these third

parties.
So you have to keep it really

simple because otherwise
everything gets lost.

All the message gets lost.
These two things are the biggest

things that brought me where I
am.

And funny enough, the global,
you know, the, the clubhouse

thing was the way I entered into
the spirits world because, you

know, I, I still remember Paul
Letko from few Spirits asking me

a question one day and I was
like, oh, there's nobody else

called Chris, so it must be me.
And then I answer and I was

like, do you mean me?
Yeah.

And then he started pulling me
in these questions and he was

all these spirits and North
American driven scrap spirits

producers.
And, and that was the Eureka

moment for me.
I was like, I really love the

spirits world and I want to
start working with it.

And that's where I am.
So when it does come to brand

building and like few spirits is
a amazing crop distillery still

like it's very well known and
still very well distributed, but

it's still small in comparison
to the big guys.

When it comes to brand building
in the crop spirit movement.

What do you think the key
pillars that the brand owners

should be focusing on?
The main thing is fixing the

fundamentals.
The whole thing about brands are

build bottom up.
That I'm always talking about is

the fact that you should focus
first on the unscalable things

so that then you can scale.
If you don't master how to sell

the first bottle, how to to
empty that first bottle, how to

sell the second bottle, how to
sell the first case.

If you don't master all the
dynamics of rejection from bar

owners, from bar staff, people
that don't know you and don't

want to list your brand, people
that deny themselves and they

say I'm not the owner, I'm the
I'm staff.

I will talk to the owner.
If you don't understand those

dynamics, in my opinion, you
will never succeed.

There's too much thinking about
raising funds.

You know, I want to raise a
million, I want to raise alpha

million.
And then you will just burn that

money because you will start
hiring people without knowing

what to tell them where to focus
on.

You will start to buy some
influencers.

You start to do some Instagram
advertising.

You will start with, you know,
looking for distributor that

just sign a contract and then
doesn't, you know, reorder and

you will get stuck if you don't
understand the fundamentals, the

boring stuff before the sexy
stuff, choosing the packaging,

choosing the design of the
bottle, the cork.

Those are the sexy things.
Those are the things that wake

you up and you know, and makes
you excited.

I was a marketeer.
I started in branding agencies.

I started like that, you know,
But then in the end it's just

like the rubber hits the road
and what happens next?

Do you think that's like because
I work with a lot of craft

distilleries.
I've helped develop a lot of

spirits like just the juice in
the bottle.

I've had my two cents and a
bottle design and a few other

things sometimes get listened
to, sometimes don't.

Do you find that a lot of the
well, I think any section like

it's very passion versus
business and they're very

passionate about and this goes
down to restaurants comes down

to bars comes down to everything
or I really love making wine or

I really love wine country or
something like that.

How do you sort of broach this
with ownership when it comes to

being?
You can see they're so passion

driven, but the business side of
their brain is sort of like

empty.
That's funny because a couple of

days ago I had an exchange with
someone on LinkedIn.

I had written one of my posts
that I repurposed because I like

them.
I say 99% of drinks builders

that I speak to, brand owners I
speak to, they don't like to

sell, they don't want to sell.
And this guy replied to me and I

said I'm a creator.
So of course I don't like to

sell and I don't want to sell.
And I said, yeah, but then you

should have someone in your
ownership, you know, partner,

investor or whoever that goes
out there so you can stay at

home while this person is going
to go out because you cannot

just create in a kind of like
alchemy based in Prague.

So, you know, type of way with
alchemist in the castle without

going down into the city and
selling your potions.

So this is the biggest challenge
because it's a passion industry.

You enter to make money, but
most people enter because they

love their, you know, they
either work in a big companies

or they're passionate about Jane
or whiskey or tequila or

whatever that is now.
So it's natural to be pulled

into this craft and creativity,
but then you have to understand

that nobody's waiting for your
product.

Nobody's waiting for that.
So either you just go and really

understand and build these
relationships, or you don't

succeed.
And the other thing, just to

close the loop, is that
relationships are overrated in

this industry, in my opinion.
Everybody thinks that.

I've got a lot of contacts and
I've seen it myself.

I had the thousands of
connections on LinkedIn when I

started my own consulting and
the phone was not ringing.

Despite the fact that everybody
said that they were loving

working with me.
Nobody called me.

So nobody's waiting for that.
You may have a lot of bartenders

on your Instagram, but nobody's
waiting for the product unless

you solve a problem for them.
Yeah, I've had a lot of friends

get from the bar side of things
and become reps for distribution

companies and they're like, oh,
it's going to be easy because

I've got tons of contacts.
I'm like, yeah, you've got tons

of contacts.
You're going to call on those

contacts.
Are they going to buy anything

from you or are they just going
to do you a favor and buy

something from you once Now I'm
curious if the person that

called you out on LinkedIn go
oh, that makes sense and

actually take your advice or he
was or they were like, no, I'm

just going to be the creator and
that's it.

I.
Know I mean like he put a hand

clapping sign under that so I
guess he got it but I mean like

it's also sometimes, you know,
especially because I don't own a

brand.
Let's say my brand, you know my

fair drinks.
That's my brand and it's funny

how similar building a podcast
and a consulting business is to

building a product because of
the dynamics are the same. 1 So

when I'm shouting out there, I'm
shouting to the mirror, I'm

shouting to myself, you know,
when I say get out there, dear

brand owner, I'm actually saying
it to myself, you know, so I

don't want to be perceived as
the smart guy in the room that

knows it all.
It's just that I'm pushing

myself and I hate that wall all
the time.

And that's how I know there's no
right or wrong, first of all,

and no silver bullets.
Otherwise we would all be

millionaires by now.
They're all going on 400

episodes of the podcast.
So you've seen the since you've

started focusing on cross
spirits, you've seen the tail

end of their increase and now
we're starting to see levelling

out.
I'm seeing this very big time in

Canada, especially in BC where
at one stage we had 87

distilleries in BC.
We've seen a lot of those

clothes and shutter over the
last couple of years.

What do you think this craft
spirit movement in North

America, in your area, in Europe
is going to look like in 2025?

That's an interesting 1.
I don't tell the crystal ball.

I'm always skeptic in giving
this kind of views.

But from what I see and who I'm
interacting with, the brands

that are succeeding are the ones
that managed to create demand.

Those are the ones.
I see them all the time.

I go to Barkham Vent, I'm a
speaker there for the last three

years in Berlin.
I walk around the aisles and I

see the stands.
I wrote a guide, right, about

how to do Bar Convent because,
you know, it's very simple to

say, OK, I've got some money, I
buy a booth and people will pass

by and I will talk to them.
No, doesn't happen like this.

You know, I've seen so many
people on their phone, empty

booths, you know, drinking glass
of water and reordering the

bottles for the 700th time
because nobody's going there.

So.
If you look, Bar Convent, just

for everybody who's listening,
is an absolute beast of a show.

Like it's not like a lot of
little shows that you can sort

of go to and sort of make a
little bit of penetration by

having a booth.
Like Bug Combat is a massive

show.
So as you were saying, the booth

might be small and in the
corner, but you really need to

do something special to make it
pop.

Absolutely, and and what I, what
I see and, and thanks for, for

clarifying that the what, what I
see is that, you know, people

that have built demand before
going there, They are the one

that succeed.
They are, they are the ones with

the full stand.
When you see a crowd of 20-30

people around the that bar,
those are the people that I know

them from Instagram.
I know them from LinkedIn.

I know them already because I've
seen them repeatedly.

Now.
It's not a matter of Instagram

or LinkedIn, but it's a matter
of building that demand before

capturing that demand.
You cannot capture it if you

haven't created it before,
because nobody knows you.

Before.
So let's bring up that point I

think and you've brought up
before, like as an entrepreneur,

dealing with the ask I find is
always the tough thing.

I promote myself a lot.
Like I've got Instagram

followers and all that sort of
stuff, but when it comes to

sealing the deal and dealing
with the ask, I find it the

hardest thing to do.
I'm not, I'm not really a talker

person.
I've got a podcast.

I'm not really a talker, but I'm
not really a talker per SE when

it comes to what I'm consulting.
It's more of like, wind me up

and let me go and I'll show you
what I do.

I can show you what I can do
instead.

I'm not going to sweet talk.
You find brand owners, they want

to take a bottle into a bar, do
a tasting.

But it's that last step.
Let's talk about a cocktail.

Let's talk about a listing.
Let's talk about how we can move

more of this product.
I think it's twofold on this one

because you need to master this
unscalable thing that I

discussed before, but then you
have to scale it, you know, and,

and this is where it's tricky
because it's important to do

this one, two things.
You know, I, I, I say it all the

time on my podcast, you know, I,
I sit in bars and I say all the

time I have a podcast and I
literally, I think half of the

followers, I mean the ones that
I've interacted in Prague or

wherever I was travelling, I
clicked follow on Spotify.

Can you spell it for me?
Yes, sure.

You know, so you have to do
these things.

And that night I gained 2
followers, 2, you know, on the

thousands.
So should I say, oh whatever, 2

followers, I don't even bother.
I need thousands.

People rush into the thousands
without doing the 123.

And this is the biggest problem.
They think that they can just

pass the ball to the next tier
in the value chain.

So whether it's an importer, a
distributor, a wholesaler,

however we want to call them.
I created the product.

I give it to Sean.
He will buy pallets and he will

sell in Canada.
It doesn't work like that

either.
I have my man or woman in Canada

to help you sell and deplete
that pallet or it will just sit

next to your other zillions of
pallets in your warehouse.

The misunderstanding in these
industries that it's not AB to C

industry, It's AB to B to B to B
to C industry.

You know, so people talk about
building the brand with

consumers, but then they get
lost into the the details of

there is an importer.
This importer have got

salespeople, they will sell to
wholesalers.

These wholesalers are got sales
people.

And then in the meantime, maybe
I have a person there like a

brand ambassador or a sales guy
myself.

So there's all these little
pieces and if they don't own

them, the narrative, it gets
lost because even if the

consumer have seen that
Instagram advert, you know they

will never find the product.
If I haven't signed a deal with

the wholesaler, the wholesaler
doesn't bring them the bottle.

That person doesn't create that
demand to do the transfer order

so that that my brand ambassador
passed that knowledge and they

actually ordered through the
wholesaler, you know, so there's

so many moving parts and This is
why it gets lost.

A lot of people just think that
if they can sit at the bar and

just sit at Sean's bar and
navigate you through that

cocktails and get you
interested, but then in your bar

you have 10 people working for
you.

So even if you bought that
bottle, is that in the cashier

system?
Can you actually sell it?

Is it in the warehouse?
Is it in the seller?

Is it in the back bar on the
third line?

You know that nobody sees and
when you're not there, nobody

knows that it's there.
There's so many of these parts

that you need to master and you
don't have to study 1500 bars

and you can study 15 bars and
you will understand the dynamics

of what happens and then you can
start to have a conversation

with importer distributors and
scale that brand.

What's your biggest piece of
advice when it comes to brands

that are scaling and they're
looking for distributors?

I've seen a lot of smaller craft
distilleries here in BC and in

Canada sort of partner up with
the three tier system that most

of the US has.
And it has been good to a

degree, but also bad to a degree
because sometimes you completely

are disconnected.
Like it's not like you're doing

trips to California or trips to
New York on a regular basis to

be able to check in with
distributors.

What's your biggest piece of
advice for when small craft

brands are trying to find
distribution?

First of all, win in your home
turf.

That's the first thing, because
if you're a Canadian spirit or

wine or whatever, you have to be
known where you're from.

Because otherwise if I sell an
Italian gin and nobody knows it

in Italy, you know it's a
gimmick.

The second thing is that when
you open markets, open them one

by one, focus on the first one.
You've got your home surf and

the first export, then you've
got the first export and the

second export.
But a lot of people, they want

to open many export market just
to put it on the PowerPoint deck

for investors present in 15
markets, present in 25 markets

across 5 continents.
It doesn't work because if you

don't have the money to actually
do advertising and promotion

budget and fuel that growth, you
cannot do it.

So either you fly there or you
have that person there doing it.

And if you don't have, you know,
a lot of people say, ah, but

it's expensive.
I cannot go to bars and, and

ordering drinks at the bar, I
mean, wherever it's legal and

you know, caveats that, you
know, depending on the States

and so on.
But you can order a drink for

yourself.
I mean, that's legal.

And they say, yeah, but I cannot
do that.

I cannot spend money like this.
But you can spend money on a

booth in a conference, right?
Or you can spend zillions

creating your fantastic
packaging.

So is this kind of dichotomy of
where do you put, if I give you

$50,000, where do you put them?
That's ultimately the, you know,

the litmus test.
And then from that you

understand where, where to go
and how to grow there.

Because if you cannot go to
California, don't look for an

importer into California because
it would just sit.

So there's always.
This sort of tension between

staying small and independent
and then also scaling, like I'm

sure you've seen the
conversation.

It's always like, oh, they used
to be small and independent and

then they sold to XYZ big
company and now they're not the

same and so on and so forth.
How do you get your clients to

balance their authenticity while
also seeing that growth in the

brand?
Because it goes back to passion

versus business.
If they do have a good business

acronym, they sort of go, OK,
well, my goal is to sell.

That's what you should be
building your brand to

eventually do so you can retire.
You don't want to be doing this

till you're 105 years old.
How do you get your clients to

balance wealth and destiny and
growth in the brand when it

comes to that next big step?
That's the $1,000,000 question,

Sean.
The first thing for me is it's

like in life, it's about walking
the talk.

If I build my brand and I'm
always talking about the legacy

of my family and my great
grandfather, my grandfather,

then if I were to sell Mafia
drinks and people would say what

the hell is this guy talking
about?

He was talking about his family
all the time.

He sold it to a conglomerate
now.

So that's the first thing.
The second thing is about the

brands that are succeeding for
me when they do that shift.

Is first of all is the one that
get the stay involved into the

business.
So if the the new owner is wise

enough to actually keep them in
the business as the face of the

business.
First of all, most of the

consumers, they won't even
notice that that brand was

bought by someone.
And then if they keep that

consistency of liquid product,
the narrative messaging, then it

stays consistent.
It doesn't matter who's put the

money behind it.
If that helps me grow my scale,

it means that I will bring this
product to a lot more people.

I'm actually doing something
nice for everyone, not only for

myself.
You know, it just like disappear

because it disappear in a
portfolio of one of the big top

10 users.
Then all of a sudden it's just

like, OK, yeah, you know,
whatever, they change the recipe

or it's not as it used to be.
And then all this kind of like

conspiracy theory about, you
know, kicking.

And it's like, no, they removed
the botanicals and, you know,

like they removed 10 of the
Botanic, you know, like all

these kind of stories that
sometimes that's true, sometimes

that just BS.
So that's what I would say.

I think we talked about in the
Green Room, like the last

episode I did in 2024 was
forwards with Simon Ford.

And then I think he's a perfect
example of that scalability

while still having very, very
strong grasp on his brand.

Absolutely.
I mean, I see many brands that,

you know, I don't even notice or
maybe when I tell someone I know

it's owned by this company.
Now really, is it people don't

care in the end, Do I want to
have that bottle and that liquid

and do a gin and Sonic or
Boulevardier or whatever?

If it tastes the same, I don't
care who sold it to me.

If there's economies of scale,
and maybe it's even a better

deal for me because the
production is getting cheaper or

I can get it in a more effective
way, so be it.

So with there being so much
competition, we've talked about

the bar and brand owner and that
sort of thing, How do these

small brands carve out a niche,
especially in the US market?

I'm not sure about the European
market when it comes to

kickbacks and stuff, but in the
US, big brands go.

I'll give you money back or I'll
give you 13, like 13 on 12, that

sort of thing.
I was in Singapore for six

months and everything's a deal
in Singapore.

Like everything can have a deal.
How do the smaller brands

compete against that?
That's a challenge, first of all

because I've been working for
more than 30 markets in the

world, on beer 1st and then now
on spirits.

Ultimately, there's always this
dichotomy of big and small

brands.
In many cases these big brands

when they are global giants, you
know, they actually strong in a

handful of markets.
The handful of market like 345

markets make 90% of their sales,
you know, which means that all

in the other, in the all other
markets, they're actually small

brands.
So now they've got money more

than you as a small producer,
but if you are well funded, I

wouldn't bet my money that they
are better off in terms of money

than you are.
If you are in Belgium or Germany

or whatever that is, you know
that small brand that maybe

you're challenging.
It could.

Be like a 2000 cases brand that
market and you are ready at 3000

or 1500 and probably you have
funded and if you use that money

wisely, you can challenge that
brand.

I see this all the time, I mean
in my market here in Czech

Republic, but you know,
elsewhere as well.

And this is a mindset shift
people should have because they

always this kind of like, Oh
yeah, you know, I'm small and

poor and these guys are big.
It's not always like this, I'm

not denying that, but it's not
always like this.

You have to carve that place on
that shelf by solving a problem

for that bar owner.
And that problem should be a

problem that you know, other
brands cannot solve.

You know, and if, if that's the
thing, then it's easier because

you're not challenging 1 to one.
You bring them on a different

kind of path.
I'm always saying like, if you

are, you are, you are on a
motorbike and you're the small

guy, you know, and the big brand
is on a truck and the truck is

chasing the bike.
So where do you go?

You go into a small alley, you
know, where the truck cannot

get.
You don't go on the highway

where the track can sidetrack
you.

It's also like going places
where you can have that kind of

conversation with the bar owner
and you get off that playoff

kickbacks and rebates and things
because you are different enough

and differentiated enough and
distinctive enough to actually

play that card.
What's one piece of advice for

someone saying a craft brand in
2025 that you would give them?

And what do you see as the
common mistake that most brands

make when they start up?
I'm trying to think of something

I haven't said yet.
You've covered a lot.

The main thing is take ownership
of that journey.

You know that game like it.
We used to call it hot potato,

OK.
Yeah, yeah.

You know, like.
You just like passing in not to

get burned in your hands.
No.

So very often it feels like
these bottles are like that.

You know, I want to give it to
the importer.

It's yours now.
No, no, it's not mine anymore.

Now it's up to you to do it.
So take accountability for them.

If you send that e-mail, if you
ship that pallet, if you ship

that case, don't think that the
invisible hand will sort it out.

The invisible hand doesn't sort
anything.

You have to take that hand and
show them where to go.

This is the biggest mistake I
see all the time.

That is like, oh, I thought
that, you know, like the Romans

used to say school to master
Biche Reputabam.

You know, it's stupid to say.
I thought, you know, it's a 2000

years old saying.
So I guess it has some traction

there.
Now it's like you just go and

follow up what you're doing,
then you will understand so many

things that you're taking for
granted.

In North America we say when you
assume you make an ass out of

you and me.
That's fantastic.

So on a.
Personal entrepreneurial level?

What's your big plan for 2025
for yourself?

My big plan is I'm working on
digital courses.

So.
I want, I want to really offer

solution because I've until now
I've been mainly talking about

generating content, but then I
really want to create solutions

for people like how to get on a
cocktail menu, how to sell the

first bottle to the first bar.
You know, these kind of things

that I can package and then
people in 40 minutes of me

talking and going through some
slides, actually click and buy

without having to read many
newsletters or listen to many

podcasts.
And this will go in tandem with

what I'm going to keep on doing,
which is the podcasts and all

the other things that I'm
working on.

Nice.
At the end of every episode I

always do 5 deep questions for
every entrepreneur and every

guest that I have.
What is one lesson or experience

that shapes your perspective the
most, and how do you carry that

forward in your life?
I would say the big learning in

the last few years is really
this focus on the trajectory

rather than big dreams.
Go step by step and focus on the

trajectory and then make the
first step and then grow step by

step.
In the past I've been too much

of A dreamer, often dreaming
about things, changing my mind,

going through things, getting
stuck and then restarting.

The big learning was doesn't
matter if I go a little bit left

and right as long as the actual
trajectory is correct.

I I love the book Atomic Habits.
Fix the system and the output

will fix itself if you fix the
inputs.

If you could leave one lasting
message or piece of wisdom for

the world, what would it be and
why?

That's a big one.
I would say never take things

for granted and always check.
Even if you blindly believe it.

Always check and you don't make
it seem if you're checking just

to be sure.
Looking back on your journey,

what is something you wish you
understood earlier in life?

It would be about keeping things
simple.

Sometimes I'm overthinking all
the stuff that I'm discussing

here and and then I go back to
my computer and then I found the

document from five years ago and
that's exactly what I had as an

intuition today, you know, and
I'm like, what the hell have I

been doing for the last five
years?

I knew it all.
Sometimes it's like, don't

second guess yourself.
Trust your gut.

And if it's simple enough, just
go for it and then fix it as you

go rather than waiting for
perfection and not starting.

How do you find success and has
that definition of it changed

over time when I was at?
University, I think he was

making a lot of money.
Now success is really doing

stuff you're obsessed with and
passionate about and and

focusing on the lifestyle,
bridging that passion with a

lifestyle and scaling that
rather than scaling money.

If you can make enough money to
live but doing what you love

with, which I guess it's what I
do and what you are also doing,

otherwise we wouldn't be talking
to each other tonight, then it's

fine.
I see so many people craving

money and doing a job they hate
just because it brings them

money.
And this is one of the decision

that I've done to live corporate
life because it wasn't making me

happy.
And then I decided, let me jump

off the rail now that at a good
level, but not at a crazy level

where I need to fuel that
machine and I've got already

like 2 villas and five cars and
one boat, and then cannot leave

this job because I have to
maintain all those fixed costs.

What do you hope your legacy
will be and what steps are you

taking to build it?
My legacy is really about

keeping things simple and
building brands from the bottom

up.
I love when people stop me and

say, hey, brands are build
bottom up.

I know that I'm going the right
direction and it's about making

people, you know, I wouldn't
call it like, and it's not only

like the solving issues for
people, but it's really like

when when I get a message on
Instagram or LinkedIn by someone

and say, man, you know, a lot of
the stuff I know about this

industry has thanks to you.
Thank your podcast, you're doing

great.
Often that person hasn't paid me

anything.
They haven't bought it a

subscription.
They haven't bought a course,

they haven't bought a
consultancy.

But those are the people that
give me feedback and tell me

that I'm going the right
direction, that I'm changing the

the life of someone in a in a
small sense, but I'm actually

doing something.
The steps that I'm taking is

basically keeping on sharing my
knowledge so that knowledge

doesn't get lost and I don't end
up like I was when I started,

when I lost 100 years of
knowledge of my great

grandfather and my grandfather
and I had to rebuild it.

Look at that.
We literally started with that

comment and we've gone all the
way around back to the exact

same common.
That's the perfect way to end

the podcast.
Chris, it's been fantastic

talking to you.
As I said in my introduction, I

watch you on LinkedIn and the
stuff you say just I do agree

that you put that stuff out in
the world and and it for free.

The people aren't necessarily
paying you for it or anything

like that.
And people are actually taking a

ton of value away from that and
hopefully put it into play for

their brand themselves.
Fantastic, it was a great chat

and a pleasure to finally get to
spend a little time together.

Let's like.
In 2025, let's try and meet up

face to face and have a coffee.
I'll be looking.

Well thank you for your time.
Cheers, I appreciate it.

Thank you, Sean.
Thanks for listening.

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that brands are built bottom up.