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Unashamed Unafraid is a show dedicated to being unashamed about sexual addiction recovery and unafraid of coming unto Christ for healing. Pornography and sexual addiction are not something you are stuck with to manage your whole life. We share real stories of recovery, the best resources, information from experts, and answer anonymous questions with those who know. All to help you on the path of being 100% healed from pornography and sexual addiction.
Speaker 17: Tryna walk the walk.
Truth on the mic, no shame
here, just real talk.
Came from the outside, never fit in.
Now we tell the story
and the healing begins.
No front, no mask, just telling the truth.
Keep it real, keep it raw,
speaking straight from the booth.
If you feeling like an
outsider, this one's for you.
Uh.
Yeah
Speaker 3: Welcome to another
episode of Unashamed, Not Afraid,
a show unashamed about sexual
addiction recovery and unafraid
of coming unto Christ for healing.
Speaker: Woo-hoo.
I
Speaker 3: Chris, is sex the problem?
Nope.
Speaker 2: All right,
thank you for listening.
Speaker 3: Peace out.
My job is done.
We're gonna talk about healthy,
non-compulsive sexuality today, which
I can speak from personal experience
that that is a really, really hard
concept for someone in addiction.
I thought my sexuality was
so disgusting growing up
Speaker: And you learned that by
Speaker 3: small messages I received and
some medium to large size once, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I've talked just a few
episodes ago about coming home
after my friend's older brother
told me how babies were made, right?
And my mom blew up, and I knew
something's wrong with whatever that was.
And so that piece of me that was
so curious and kind of enjoyed
learning about it Shut that down.
Speaker: Yeah.
' Speaker 3: Cause you will never
be safe talking about that.,
When I was a kid actually, super
young, super, super young with
like the neighbor boys, definitely
some sexual experimentation.
I think a ton more kids do that than would
ever admit it because- Totally ⦠there's
a ton of shame about that once you get
older, like- Yeah ⦠"You did what to
your neighbor boy when you were five?"
Kids are really curious about
bodies, and they will do all sorts
of things if they don't understand
healthy touch and boundaries
definitely experienced
that when I was a kid.
And so I just had all these
experiences over the course of my life.
And the reactions of other people and my
own, feelings about it just slowly started
to make me feel like that was a bad part
of me, and that word bad just sticks out.
Speaker: We grew up- So then
if you think about it, if you
th- do it, then you are bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I didn't have-
That's when shame come in, right?
⦠any parental guidance.
In fact, out of the six kids in
our family, I was the only one
who didn't even get the talk.
Like everyone else at least
got one formal sit-down- Mm
with mom.
I didn't even get that.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 3: And so it was
this extra layer of shame.
But inside of me, this kid part, even
the kid part of my brain at 10, 11
years old knew Mom and Dad should be
helping you understand this part of you.
And, if you're out there listening
right now, like raise your hand
if that was your experience.
I, I can't imagine- Yeah ⦠there's
gonna be very many of you who, who
don't say, "Yeah, I've also experienced
some similar version of that."
It sticks with you.
So, uh, open mic.
What do you guys think about that?
What have your experiences been?
Speaker 4: Are you telling me
that getting married doesn't
just solve all of the problems-
with unhealthy sexuality?
Wow.
My mind's been altered.
Weird.
This is crazy.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking
while you were talking that we
grew up in a, in a time, we're
the age of the internet, right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And we grew up- Yeah ⦠at
a time when there was nobody.
Speaker 3: Chris, you old fart.
Speaker 2: Hey, he was, he wasâ¦
He grew up during the-
Speaker 3: You were looking at porn mags.
I don't even know that's a
thing It, it came out when I was
Speaker: 17.
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 3: There you
Speaker 2: go.
But, but we grew up in a world that
did not know how to help someone who
was exposed to internet pornography.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And, and we actually, I feel
like we grew up in a time when peopleâ¦
I kinda wonder if shame is an
effective tool to keep people
from looking the first time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But if you can't help
avoid looking at it, shame never
helps once you've, once you've
done it, shame just makes it worse.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was just told
never to talk about it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember trying
to ask, I remember specifically
using the word masturbation.
Oh.
I heard that from my friends, and I
was like, "I don't know what that is."
And I was at home, and I was
playing, Jak and Daxter or
something on the PlayStation 2.
Oh.
And I was like-
Speaker 3: That's a good game
⦠Speaker 2: and I was like,
"What's masturbation?"
And my parents were like, they're
in the kitchen doing something.
All of a sudden, you know, the
stirring of the whisk stops.
Everyone's just looking at me.
I was like, "What the�"
And everyone was like, "Where
did you learn that word?"
And I was like, "I just
heard somebody say it once."
And they were like, "Never say that word."
And I was like, "Okay."
They're like, "It means
you play with yourself."
And
Speaker: I was like- Which, which
isn't that- ⦠"What does that mean?"
Isn't that crazy?
That's, that's the normal
word we should be saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's,
Speaker: yeah.
Instead of, like, jacking off or,
like- Yeah ⦠like- Right ⦠all
the, all the- I actually
Speaker 3: feel
Speaker: uncomfort-
some terms ⦠I
Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable now
when someone says jacking off.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker 3: Like, I, I'm like, "No, no, no.
Don't say that.
That's like-"
Speaker: That's not, that's not the word
⦠Speaker 3: like- Yeah ⦠that's not what
mast- Like, just, just say masturbation.
That's what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
But I think the timeâ¦
And we have to give grace to those
people because they didn't haveâ¦
When we grew up in a time where
we were screwed because- Well, I
Speaker 3: am one of those people, so
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
No, I mean, I mean we have to give grace
to our parents- Oh ⦠who didn't help us.
Yeah.
So, like, our parents didn't
give us what we needed, but also-
Yeah ⦠they had no idea how.
They were also the first generation to
raise kids during the age of the internet.
Yeah.
They had no way of knowing
how to help with this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And, and we need to be able to-
Speaker: Especially if
they're hiding themselves.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker: Like, that was huge for me-
Yeah ⦠to be able to be open about it.
Totally.
Totally.
It's totally
Speaker 2: generational sometimes.
Speaker: This is how it went
This is how it was in my family.
My kids knew all about my sexual
acting out, my, affairs, porn use.
We had numerous talks about being
open about that stuff, masturbation,
the whole talks, like, lots of them,
like, full conversations about it all.
And my son still believed in Santa
Claus until he was almost ⦠We
had to tell him, going into
eighth grade- We had to tell him.
Speaker 5: Nice.
But you- And- You flipped it.
Speaker: Right?
And, and like, like he was pissed.
He was like, "What?
What do you ⦠So does that
mean the Easter Bunny isn'tâ¦"
And we're like- You're like-
Yeah ⦠"No, the Easter Bunny's real."
He's not real.
Yeah.
The Easter Bunny- He's gonna be on
Speaker 3: some, he's gonna be on some
show, some podcast when he's, when
he's older, and he's gonna be like-
" Speaker 5: My parents never
told me the truth about Santa
until I was in eighth grade."
"All they
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about was sex."
Speaker: Right?
But that, that's, that's how it was.
We were, because I was so open about it,
and I was not living in shame anymore-
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
⦠Speaker: I was able to have those hard
conversations with my kids so that they
could have an understanding of what
that was about so that they could have a
healthy relationship with their sexuality.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: That is the biggest thing
and the biggest issue that we have
run i- that we're seeing all over the
place is that people don't know how,
how to have a sexual or a healthy
sexual relationship with themselves.
Sam: Yeah.
Um- And, and you know what, Chris?
Whether your kids realize it or
not, that is probably, , at least in
the top three maybe even the single
greatest gift that you gave them.
Like- Seriously, you think about
how many people don't get that
across cultures- Yeah ⦠across
the world, over time in history.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker 3: You can read ancient scripture
and you can see they had, they hadâ¦
Well, actually, uh, the Israelites
actually didn't have much shame about sex.
They, they were pretty-
Pretty open about it
they were pretty open about it, right?
But you read, history, and you just
start to see, this has always been a
hard thing for people to deal with.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like, how few people on
this planet have ever been raised
with healthy scripts around sex is,
it's astonishing to think about.
Well,
Speaker: I think there's, I think
there's a lot of people, the reason
why they feel, and I'm just throwing
this out there, maybe there's, maybe
I'm totally wrong, but I think there's
are, there are people that the reason
why they don't wanna share openly about
it is because they hold it so sacred-
Speaker 3: Mm
⦠Speaker: and that it can be so sacred-
Speaker 3: Yep
Speaker: that openly talking about
it takes away the, the beauty of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think talk about the
beauty of it because the, because
your kids need to understand that
sexuality is a beautiful thing.
It's a beautiful experience.
It's not this big, scary experience
and, and it, the, I mean, yeah, the,
it's gonna be scary, like, the first
time, but talk to them about what
it's gonna be like the first time.
Yeah.
"Hey, guess what?
It's not gonna be like it's in the
movies, that it's gonna be this beautiful,
glorious, and it's gonna take an hour."
Bullshit.
You're
Speaker 2: gonna be
like, "That was really-"
Speaker: It's, it's-
Speaker 2: Dude
⦠Speaker: for a while.
It's
Speaker 2: not gonna be
Speaker: like that.
Speaker 2: Can I read, something you
just said reminded me of a quote.
Can I read this quote really quick?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to
sex being a beautiful thing,
these are quotes from David A.
Bednar and Dallin H.
Oaks, so current prophet of the Elias
Church and of one of the 12 apostles.
"Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son
are creators and have entrusted each of us
with a portion of their creative power."
The power to create mortal
life is the most exalted power
God has given his children.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 2: So sex bad?
That, what they're talking about is sex.
Sex is what we, we use
to create mortal life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: So sex bad?
No, sex good.
Sex actually is uniquely capable of
helping us understand the creative power
of God than anything else in this world.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So our relationship
with God can develop in a way,
if we do it in a healthy way-
Speaker 3: Hmm
Speaker 2: than any other
practice in the world.
And also, if we believe in the law
of opposition, it's uniquely capable
of destroying your relationship-
Speaker 3: Totally.
Yeah
⦠Speaker 2: with God.
Speaker 3: Totally.
That's what's so interesting about it,
it is, because it is one of the most
powerful forces in the universe, and
maybe according to that quote, maybe
the most powerful force that we're
capable of wielding anyways, like-
Speaker 2: I don't think it's evenâ¦
I think it's absolutely-
Yeah ⦠certainly that.
Sam: Yeah.
It is the most- Yeah ⦠polarizing
force on the earth.
Speaker: Totally.
Sam (2): So it is imporant to talk about.
Don't have to talk about
the specifics, right?
Like, specific things are
gonna be very important.
We wanna treat it sacred.
Sacred is the word that's really,
that really comes, rightâ¦
I'm not gonna tell anyone else the
specifics of my sex life with Jasmine.
Yeah.
It's very, like, I'veâ¦
We have some very- Totally ⦠we've
talked very clearly about
what we will and won't share.
And really, that, for us, it's
like I won't ever say something to
someone about our sex life that I
wouldn't say in front of Jasmine.
That's, that's what we've agreed upon.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: But you don't have
to talk about the specifics to
talk about how wonderful it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: What a blessing it is.
Yeah.
Right?
Whenever someone is, like,
really sex positive around
me, my shoulders just relax.
I'm like, "Oh, wow."
And I have so much respect for
them for, for having the courage
to be like, "You know what?
My sexual relationship with my
spouse "is one of the most beautiful
parts of our relationship," right?
To have someone in church share
that in a, a young men, young
women's lesson, and, and to be funny
without being crass about it is,
is- Yeah ⦠is another gift, right?
You can, I think that's a
really helpful, is humor.
You can be humorous about sex.
It's a funny thing.
Speaker: I
Speaker 3: sh- Right?
If you're not-
Speaker: You don't have to be crass
if you're not having fun, if you're
not being silly in your relationship-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker: why are you so serious?
Right?
Why so serious?
That's exactlyâ¦
Every time I, every time I go
there, that's exactly what I think.
But, but it's like, why are
you being so serious about it?
Yeah.
Have fun.
Like, it- Yeah ⦠you gotta have
a healthy relationship with sex.
What happens is, is if you can create a
healthy relationship with sex and learning
more about it with each other, like
exploring, talking to each other about it.
There was a podcast that my wife and I
listened to, this is probably like, I
don't know, probably six years ago or
something like that, and we're listening
to this podcast and it's talking about
all sorts of things about sex, and Autumn
looks at me and she goes, "We shoulda
had this conversation 20 years ago."
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I'm like, "100%, we
totally should have," but we
didn't know we should have.
Yeah.
Because nobody told us
that we should have.
Yeah.
That's why we need to
Speaker 2: normalize
Speaker: this kind of conversation.
Yeah, we need to be like, "Hey, it's
okay to have these conversations
about sex," because then you
take away, the sexual shame
Like I know I have clients that even have
shame for having sex with their wife.
Speaker 5: Hmm.
Speaker: And they love being with
their wife, but they just feel shame
because they just feel like there's,
there's something inherently bad
with them- Yeah ⦠because sexuality
is bad and having sex is bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
They've correlated- Mm-hmm
sex with acting out
Speaker: and sexual addiction.
And, and man, if you can change that
and you can, change that relationship
with it, everything changes, and
it can become the most beautiful
and spiritual and connecting, just
absolutely, like, passionate and
amazing experience you've ever had.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Well-
Speaker: Go ahead.
Speaker 4: My question is is
like, you know, what, what does
that, what does that feel like?
What does it look like?
Like, what are the steps that can be taken
to have a healthy relationship with sex?
Where it's like me and my wife,
somehow I made it through all the way
up till marriage without having sex.
She also never had sex before marriage.
But like I was an addict to pornography
and sex, and she is dealing with trauma
from being abused as a kid, and like both
being virgins going into this marriage.
Like we're just two homeschooled kids
basically trying to figure this out.
Like we, we had no idea what was going on.
So what were your
Speaker: conversations around sex?
Speaker 4: We didn't
really have conversations.
That's the problem.
Oh, yeah.
Right?
Yeah,
Speaker: yeah.
Is we're, we're just not having
conversations around sex.
Sam: Yeah.
And you know what?
H- there's a huge fear of like,
"What if I say the wrong thing?
" It's like you're going to.
It is like anything Else in your life.
I'm gonna mess up at this
and say it imperfectly.
Since entering recovery, I've
given myself permission to do that.
I f- I feel that way.
Yeah.
It's okay to make mistakes because once
you find the sweet spot and you honor
your sexuality and you're given y- the,
the, the God-given, God-given, such an
important word, God-given passions inside
of you, you become a whole, person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I, I just think,
I, there's room for mistakes.
It's okay.
People make mistakes, right?
Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and I
think that- You don't have
Speaker 3: to do it
Speaker: perfectly, but- Especially if
you're new to this stuff, like, like
you're talking about it to your fiance
and being like, "Hey, I don't know how
to have this conversation around sex."
Speaker 3: Totally.
" Speaker: Maybe we should get some help."
Yeah.
Or, "Hey, I've, I've got some questions.
Like, what I know is
what I know from porn."
There's a
Speaker 2: lot of conversations
I had with my wife that's like,
"This might sound weird, butâ¦"
And then she's like-
Yeah ⦠"No, that's not weird."
Speaker: And just be like, "So,
so let's have these conversations
around it and talk about it."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, and if you don't know how
to talk about it, then get some help.
I would say, we've had Jennifer
Finlayson-Fife on here a couple of times.
Right.
Love her work, and if you want
to understand your sexuality,
she has incredible courses.
She has one for men, um, they're
called The Art of Loving.
Then she has one for couples, and then she
has one for women specifically as well.
Speaker 3: She also has- And I don'tâ¦
And lots of other stuff ⦠uh,
she's got, so she's got a Room For
Two podcast as well- Yep ⦠where,
where she coaches couples.
I actually have a couple friends who
have been on that, uh, on that podcast.
Yeah, it, it, it's a
Speaker: subscription
Speaker 3: for that, but- It's, it's
a subscription- ⦠it's well worth it
and you could- she coaches
couples through their sex life.
She actually doesn't talk about sex that
much for it being a, a sexuality, podcast.
But then she's also got her regular
Conversations With Jennifer,
podcast where she, she's, uh, isâ¦
From all the resources that
I'm aware of, I think Dr.
Jennifer is probably the
best at addressing sexuality.
So yeah, I would also
recommend her as a resource.
Mm.
She's really good at stripping the
shame out of it and just talking
about the keeping it holy while also
being very clear and frank about it.
And that's a, that's, I think, in a
community, in a culture where we have
so much shame about it, it's rare to
find someone who's good at ta- It's
not that, it's not that that skill
is a super hard skill to develop.
It's a super hard skill
to develop in our culture.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Right?
So-
Speaker: Mm, I think it's, it, I
think it's the majority of cul- like
Speaker 3: most cultures- You
Speaker: think so?
⦠I do.
Speaker 3: But do you think that if
we had- Because I think there might
be- ⦠if everybody had, if we
had a healthy culture around it and
many people had that skill, that we
would pick it up more, more easily?
Totally.
Absolutely.
'Cause that's my point.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I would also say to your point
that I think it m- there might be an added
measure- Sure ⦠of shame around this
subject- Sure ⦠in our specific culture.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.
I mean-
Speaker 2: If
Speaker 3: you- ⦠the original shame was
Adam and Eve were afraid of being naked.
Right.
So I think you're right about that.
Speaker 2: Like Utah subscribes
to OnlyFans five times more
than the average state.
Yeah, I totally
Speaker 3: believe that.
Speaker 2: Like, there's, there's
something about our culture that
really doesn't like to address this.
Speaker 3: Repressed sexuality.
Yeah.
Lots of repressed sexuality.
Austin, we keep cutting you off, dude.
Tell us what you wanna say.
Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to
make sure, too, that you, you got
your answer from your question.
Speaker 4: No, yeah.
Yeah, I did.
And I will admit, like, yeah, my OnlyFans
is popping right now thanks to Utah, so
thank you.
Uh, so I'm subscribed.
You did not just say that.
Wait, wait, you do?
I am alone?
No.
Speaker 3: Austin is not- Austin
does not have an OnlyFans account.
Oh,
Speaker 4: gosh.
Got a disclaimer there.
That's
Speaker: awesome.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my
question's been answered.
I will admit, like- So I would try and
have these conversations with my wife
where it's like, you know, I wannaâ¦
Whether it's like I wanna have sex more
or, you know, I wanna try different things
or, you know, like that where it's more,
it was coming more from addict land of
just like, "I n- I need more from you."
Um, but it took all the way to getting
to therapy where we sat down and I could
kind of say like, "Look," like when I was
in a healthier place, I could say to her,
"When I'm trying t- when I say I wanna
have sex with you, it's not saying I want
your body," 'cause that's what she hears.
She hears, "I just want your body.
I want you.
I just want sex."
What I'm trying to say
is, like, "I want you.
I want the intimacy."
Yeah.
That's, like, what I'm craving
is intimacy, is connection, is
love, is this compassion with you.
That is what I'm needing.
Sex is the most powerful avenue
to get to that, and that's,
that's why I'm asking for it.
But I had said that to her multiple times
before, and she wouldn't hear it, but
for whatever reason, being in therapy,
having that third party, really just
allowed her to hear it for the first
time, and things really started to change.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 4: But I will say, too-
Love that ⦠i've talked about it
before, I had a crazy hard relapse.
This is almost a year ago now.
But we didn't have sex for about
five months, and that's because
she needed time to heal, and I
needed time to figure my stuff out.
But- And you didn't die.
I didn't die.
Yeah.
Which is insane.
But also, it ended up being the best
thing ever, you know, looking back on it.
During it, it sucked.
It was really hard.
I went through a lot of emotions
of pain and anger and a lot of
resentment all the emotions.
But we look back on it now, and it
just, it really showed us, allowed us to
look at our sexuality and say, "Okay."
Mm-hmm.
" We thought we were healthy.
We were not healthy," because we went into
this marriage as, with me as an addict and
with her dealing with trauma from being
abused, so we never once had even a solid
foundation to build our sexuality on.
And that, those five months, weâ¦
She worked on her stuff, I worked on my
stuff, and we were able to come together
and finally find a solid foundation to
actually start building sexuality on.
Mm.
And that's, that's, like, one of the
things is, you know, as a listener,
may- you might not even know that
your sexual life is unhealthy.
And that, that's something to look at.
You know, don't invent anything, but
it is possible that your sexuality
is not as healthy as you think it is.
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 4: And you would never know
that, you know, unless you talked to a,
your partner and had these conversations
that we're trying to get people to have.
Speaker 3: So I, I love
what you're saying.
Was it hard, Austin, in the beginning
when you had to have the courage to
open your mouth and start having those
type of conversations with her- Mm-hmm
'cause I don't imagine a, a, a
life full of sexual trauma, you
guys just, like breezed into that.
Speaker 4: No.
No, no, no.
I still get anxious, honestly.
It's still something I'm working through,
is, um, uh, coming to my wife and saying,
"Hey, I wanna have sex tonight," or,
"Are you open to have sex tonight?"
That's a scary thing to ask.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And that's because I've carried
so much shame about sexuality in my life,
and, you know, her trauma responses.
But we had that conversation where I
say, like, "I carried a lot of shame
about this, and I'm working through this.
But when I come to you and ask
you that, I just need you to
be aware that that's the space.
I'm coming to you vulnerable, and
I'm coming to you with courage.
You don't have to say yes, but I
just need you to be aware that this
is the state I'm in when I'm coming
to you, that I'm, you know, I'm
being vulnerable in this moment."
Mm.
And so, you know, there's been
times where she's said no, and I
would pout and do all the things.
But after this like five-month
span of taking this break,
I st- I'll never forget it.
We were laying on the bed and I asked
her if we could, if she'd be open to
having sex that night, and she told me,
you know, she's like, "No, not tonight."
Like, I'm, you know,
"I'm not feeling well.
It's late.
I'm exhausted."
And she looked at me and she
said, "Are you gonna be okay?"
I said, "Yeah.
Like, I'm gonna be fine.
Like, you know, we'll have,
we'll have sex again eventually.
Like, I'm fine."
And she started sobbing, bawling, and I
was like, "Whoa, what, what is happening?"
And she just looked at me and she's
like I, I know you're telling the truth.
She's like, "I can feel that
you are okay- Mm ⦠right now."
Wow.
Wow.
And she's like, "This is the first time
ever where you've said that you're fine,
and I know that you are actually fine."
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker 4: Um,
Speaker 3: and that was huge.
So you're not doing it from a pouting-
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah ⦠stance.
And- And I was.
I was completely fine.
I was just so okay with it.
Speaker 3: And how close did
you guys feel in that moment?
Speaker 4: That moment was more
intimate than the sex we would've had-
Yeah ⦠in that moment, for sure.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: For sure.
It was beautiful.
It was beautiful.
Speaker 2: When I try to instigate
some sort of sexual experience with my
wife and she doesn't want to, finding
intimacy in other ways fulfills the
need that you have inside of you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It also fulfills it to have
sex- Yeah ⦠especially for men, I think.
Well,
Speaker: did you know that there's
actually six different types of intimacy?
Speaker 2: Tell me.
I- And I- ⦠I don't know this
⦠Speaker: I didn't know that.
I f- for the longest time, I thought it
was just sexual intimacy, and that was it.
Didn't know there was so much more.
But-
Speaker 2: List them off ⦠but-
I wanna hear them all
⦠Speaker: you have emotional intimacy,
you have intellectual intimacy.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You have, um, experiential,
experiential, experiential intimacy.
Um, then you have spiritual,
and then you have physical.
And a lot of people will actually
put physical and sexual together.
Speaker 2: I was just
Speaker: gonna ask you-
But I, I separate it
if they're separate.
Yeah.
I separate it because I
think they're different.
Speaker 3: I
Speaker: agree.
And I've had numerous conversations
with, like, Steven and James, and like,
uh, Olive accepted when I was here.
Um, and I'm like, "No, I think
they're separate," because-
Speaker 3: Oh, for
Speaker: sure they're separate.
You and I- ⦠there, there's
physical intimacy that- Chris, you and
Speaker 3: I have a lot
of physical intimacy
Speaker: right ⦠like I-
And there's physical intimacy
that is not sexually related.
Speaker 3: For sure.
Speaker: Right?
Yeah.
That's hugging.
Um, like even the, with your spouse,
it's like hugging, holding hands, sitting
next to each other, just feeling the
closeness of, of your bodies together.
Yeah.
Me and Autumn will have, have, we'll
have intimacy in the restaurant
because I'm sitting right next to her.
Right.
I don't sit across from her.
I sit next to her.
That's a funny thing to say.
Right?
Totally.
What are you guys doing?
We're being intimate in the restaurant.
Nice.
What's it to you?
Hey,
Speaker 2: wait.
You only got to five.
Right?
Speaker: What's the sixth one?
Is that sex?
Sixth, sexual intimacy.
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
And, and so, so like there, there's
those different types of intimacy, and
what I found, and it's, uh, one I do
when I'm working with clients is, like
I'll actually sit the, the couples down
together and we're like, "We're gonna go
through each one of these so you guys can
experience and know what each of these
intimacies and the details are, and then
I want you to rate yourself on, like
where you think your relationship's at."
Mm.
And it's really interesting to
watch where if they are saying that
their sexual, sexual intimacy is
low- Most of their intimacies is,
like, also low, around two or three.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Mm.
Speaker: And as those other intimacies
come up, because I'm like, "Hey, this
is- let's get a ground, uh, like, find
the, the level where you guys are at
right now," so we can be like, "What
type of intimacy do we need to work on
to improve intimacy in our relationship?"
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: So that they can look at
that and be like, "Hey, where do
we wanna be in six months from now?
How are we gonna do that?"
Well, you gotta first know where
you're at and be like, "You know what?
We have no experiential intimacy at all.
We don't go out and do fun things."
Yeah.
"We're not doing spur of
the moment kind of stuff.
There's no real excitement to our dates.
There's no experiential intimacy."
Speaker 3: Mm.
" Speaker: We don't talk
about God very much.
We may share a cool experience
every once in a while."
Like me and Autumn, we had no spiritual
intimacy for many, many years, and
I was,, the president of the Young
Men's in , my church congregation.
I was having crazy spiritual experiences.
In the meantime, I was still
actually having ⦠I was acting
out with women and everything.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker: But I was not having any kind of
conversation with my wife about any of the
spiritual experiences that I was having.
Speaker 3: So I've heard this before,
we don't have emotion, or we don't
Sorry.
I'm gonna phrase that.
We don't have sexual needs, we have
emotional needs that get sexualized.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 3: You've said many times
before, Chris, that sex is not
a need, but it is a way to meet
many of the needs that we have.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker 3: And understanding that
way really helps, like, like, oh,
wow, okay, if that's the case,
then , sex is awesome and I don't need
Speaker: it.
So I'm, I'm gonna name those 10 le- needs,
'cause I think this would be a really
good place to, to really understand that,
Speaker 3: especially- And, and I
think it can meet every need, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
And so it, it, it truly can.
And so that's why people are
like, "Well, I've got needs."
And especially men are, are all
about ⦠They're like, "I have
this need, this sexual need."
Well, you have ⦠So I'm
gonna go through the needs.
We have connection, belonging, right?
Being part of something
bigger than yourself.
Purpose, being part of something
that makes you come alive.
Trust, safety, autonomy,
self-expression, respect, play, and
rest, which is peace and calmness.
And if you look at sex, we can name how
sex can meet almost every single one of
those- Even rest ⦠if not all of it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think all of them.
Yeah.
Speaker: Right?
And so it's like, oh, well I'm
gonna go, um, if, if I'm not getting
those things from my wife, then I'm
gonna go to porn- Yeah ⦠because
it'll meet those needs- Totally
in a quick way.
Speaker 3: Totally.
Speaker: But it doesn't
truly meet the need.
That's why we still have to ⦠That's
why we have this desire to keep
coming back to it, because we're
never getting our needs met.
So if we are in a place where we aren't
meeting our own needs, and then we're
going to our spouse to meet those
needs and she's not meeting those
needs for us, then we're gonna go to
porn to meet those needs, and they
falsely meet the need.
Then that desire gets, keeps coming back
because it never actually meets the need.
Yeah.
So the desire's still there, but once
you get really good at meeting your own
needs, that desire to act out goes away.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Mm.
Speaker: Because you get really
good at meeting your needs.
Temptation comes in.
Now, it doesn't mean that the
temptations totally go away.
I still have temptations, but I'm
damn good at meeting my needs.
Speaker 3: Do you know what's really
interesting about that, too, is
we would say that we go to porn
to meet unmet needs, but, uh, I go
to sex when all my needs are met.
Mm.
When I feel fully connected, when
I feel fully, like I fully- Sex
Speaker 2: means a lot more- Yes ⦠when
you and your wife have been ma-
making all the other connections
to those other six into- Totally.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
It's because you're not
going to it to numb out.
Speaker: And
Speaker 3: I, , I'm coming to
this person in my full strength.
Yeah.
That's the best sex I've
ever had with, with my wife.
Speaker: 100%.
Yeah.
And especially like when you're,
when other types of intimacies are,
are up, dude, talk about sexual
intimacy being like crazy awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely, because you are
connecting in a way that you
probably have never connected before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because you are firing off on all
these different types of intimacies,
they're interconnected with each
other, and you're like, "This is the
best sex I've ever had in my life."
Speaker 2: Can I ask Austin a
question real quick before we move on?
Go ahead.
So, you said that when you were
trying to, meet these needs and
you weren't in a healthy place.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: You mentioned something about,
having sexual intimacy and trying to,
like, address your personal needs- Mm-hmm
through it.
Would you say that that's changed
as you've found more healthy
sexuality with your relationship and
Speaker 4: your, with your wife?
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, 'cause my intentions
are, are a lot different now.
And so I've still had, I've
had conversations with my wife
where instead of saying, 'Hey,
my needs aren't being met.
I need, you know, I need you
to wear lingerie or do this
or do that, or do this.'"
Um, you know, the last time we had
this conversation, I just said, "Hey,
like, I just want you to know I've, you
know, I've been working on myself, and
I've kind of gotten to a place where
I'm ready to maybe have sex more "But
it's okay if you're not there yet.
I'm just letting you know where I'm
at, where I'm ready for this, and
whenever you're ready for it, we can,
you know, we can revit- this, revisit
this conversation and, and see, you
know, kind of how we're feeling."
Um, because when I'm trying to, I guess,
address my needs within sex, I'm realizing
now that it's not about me all the time.
Mm.
Like, her needs also matter
when it comes to sex.
Yeah.
And so I can speak to mine and just
say, "Hey, this is kind of where I'm
at, but we don't have to approach
this right now until you're in a place
where, where maybe it's feasible."
And maybe it never will be, you know?
Like, that's, that's okay.
That's a place where I've needed
to get where it's okay where every
sexual fantasy that I've ever had in
my life as a porn addict isn't going
to get addressed, and that's okay.
Mm.
Because at the end of the day, I have
gotten myself to a place where, sex
is not a need anymore, that it is
an avenue in which I can have this
beautiful experience of intimacy and
connection and love with my wife, and
that, and that's what I want it to be.
And so it's always fun to add new things
or, spice things up or change it, but,
not at the expense of, of your partner.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I had a conversation with
somebody not too long ago where she was
saying that her husband was constantly
being like, "Well, I wanna try this
and I wanna try that and I wanna
try this position," and, you know.
Um, and she would try it.
You know, she'd give it her best
shot, but she's like, "I can't do
half the things that he's wanting,"
and then he gets super upset.
And so then, you know, all this shame
gets put in, and now she's feeling
like she's the reason why he's unhappy.
Speaker: So then now- Yeah ⦠there's
a lack of safety in the bedroom, right?
Speaker 4: Right, exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
So having that conversation
and being like, "Hey, we're w-
I'm willing to try whatever.
Try, let's try different things," right?
But, like, I know that even from
conversations with, open conversation
with Autumn, she's like, "No,
certain, these thi- certain things
are never okay in the bedroom."
Mm.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And so I'm like, "Awesome.
I know that, and I know in order for me to
create safety," I'm like, "You know what?"
I'm gonna let her know, "Autumn, you
have said that this is off limits
for you, I will never try that."
Hmm.
Even if she knows that I've done those
things with my affair partners and stuff,
'cause she's asked me about that, right?
Different things.
And she's like, "Just you
know that's not gonna happen."
And I'm like, "I get it."
And I w- and I've come back to her
and been like, "Just so you know, I
will never try to push that because
I know that that's not okay for you."
And what that does is that creates a
whole nother level of intimacy- Mm-hmm
⦠because she's able to just let herself go-
Speaker 3: Totally
⦠Speaker: so that she can be present
while we're there, not going- Not
worried if something happening ⦠tight,
tightened up going, "Is, is- Right,
yeah ⦠today the day that he's-
Mm-hmm ⦠gonna try to do this to me?
Is, is today gonna happen?
Is thatâ¦"
A- and then she's, like, totally up
in her head, and then she totally,
like, is not connected to the sex.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker: And, and so it's like, no, I
just wanna make sure that that's how itâ¦
I mean, want people to know that's
how you create safety in the bedroom.
Yeah.
You can try things and be like,
"Hey, that was uncomfortable.
That was weird, and I'm okay if
we don't ever try that again."
Speaker 5: Hmm.
Speaker: And don't push the issue.
Be like, "All right.
Let's go.
W- w- try, let's try other things."
And, and ex- you can experiment things.
You can try different things.
That's part of what healthy sexuality
is, to know what you're okay with
and what you're not okay with, and
being honest about that and be like,
"Hey, I wasn't comfortable with that
and I didn't like the way I felt."
Great, then we don't
have to try that again.
Right.
And honor that.
That's a boundary that- Absolutely
⦠is set in the bedroom, and be
like, "Yep, I'm gonna honor that."
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Some- the reason I asked is
because I feel like as I've found more
healthy sexuality with my wife is I, I
was trying, in the moment of intimacy,
I was trying to please myself even
though I was having sex with my wife.
And now when I go in to have an intimate
sexual experience with my wife, I'm
focused entirely on pleasing her.
And the best, most intimately
powerful moments we've had sexually
are when I'm 100% focused on her
and she's 100% focused on me.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Instead of, "I want you to wear this.
I want you to do this.
I want you to try this, this
position, this position."
And it, it'sâ¦
if my focus is totally on her
and hers is totally on me.
, it creates this, like, crazy vulnerability
and trust and such a powerful moment
that, You can share with no one else.
Speaker 3: There's an opposite
side of that corn too, uh-
Speaker 2: Corn?
The opposite side of that corn.
Speaker 3: On the opposite
side of that corn.
Yeah.
On the opposite side of that coin
is, and Jennifer Fin- Finlayson-Fife
actually talks about this, for many
people, and I would actually put
myself in this category, there's a
hard time allowing yourself to be
pleased or to be loved by someone else
there's almost like this, like, um- I'm
not worthy of this ⦠I'm over-focusing
on that person's experience and not a- Mm
⦠not allowing myself to accept pleasure and
the goodness and generosity of my partner-
Speaker: Mm-hmm
⦠Speaker 3: in this sexual experience.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so, there may be, a
lot of couples who, if they don't lean
towards the indulgent, but they're
actually, uh, more, like- Giving
yeah, more giving, uh, that they have
to scale back and be like, "No, I am
gonna ask for the things that I want."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
" Sam: And I am going to allow myself
to- To experience The pleasure ⦠to
experience the pleasure of being loved by
my wife or husband, because it's good for
me and it's good for our relationship.
Speaker 2: yep.
Speaker 3: What's really cool is sex, in
a relationship, it reveals the things
about your relationship that need fixing.
Hmm.
I'm finding the, the things that
I have a hard time with in sex are
the same things that I have a hard
time with in our relationship.
I can't ask for the things that I need.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 3: She's afraid to say no.
I'm afraid to say no, it is not
this separate part of our lives.
And I think, maybe we can close on
this note, when you start to understand
sex in the context I think that God
intended us to understand it in, you
start to realize this is something that
he gave us to build our relationship.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Because of the power it
holds, It stands alone in its ability to
reveal the things that need healing so
if you're out there wondering, am I bad?
Am I dirty?"
The answer's no.
God gave us sex, and Satan took
it and twisted it, and he turned
it into pornography and, and,
Many other things ⦠many other
Speaker 2: things And God wants you
to experience it because He can grow
closer to you in a unique way - I
Speaker 3: would also
Speaker 2: say that's true
in a way- Totally ⦠that is healthy,
and also He's trying to protect you
from destroying that relationship-
Speaker 3: Yeah
⦠Speaker 2: by misusing it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
So Chris, is sex the problem?
Speaker: No.
My job is done.
Speaker 3: Sex isn't the problem.
Speaker: No.
Shame is the problem.
Speaker 3: you know what?
I wanna challenge
Speaker: everybody out there.
Like, speaking of challenges- Yes.
That's what I want ⦠right?
I
Speaker 2: want these every,
every episode, we need to
have Chris issue a challenge.
Another challenge
Speaker 3: from Chris.
Speaker: New challenger.
Love it.
So Go to your spouse and say, "Hey,
when I tell you that I wanna have
sex with you, what do you hear?"
Speaker 3: Hmm.
' , Speaker: I wanted to address
that because you brought that up-
Mm-hmm ⦠Austin, is because that
was kinda where you guys went.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: And-
Speaker 4: Love that
⦠Speaker: find out where that goes, because
I think that's gonna reveal your level of
intimacy that you have in maybe all six
Speaker 3: of those different
types of intimacies.
I would issue a similar challenge
to, uh, anyone who's not in a
committed relationship and doesn't
have an active sexual relationship.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you
thought to mention that.
Sam: I would just say this,
again, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife
talks a ton about meaning.
What does it mean?
What does sex mean to you?
When you think about sexual urges or when
you notice beauty what comes up for you?
What does it mean?
To Josh's point, you don't have to
turn to sex to meet those needs.
But if you ever wanna get to the
point where you're okay regardless of
whether or not you have sex, I just
know this from personal experience,
I've had to do a lot of digging to
figure out what it looks like for me to
have a healthy relationship with sex,
. It is still, under
construction, to say the least.
Uh, but I, I started- Dude,
Speaker: I've been married to
Autumn for almost 30 years, and
it's still under construction.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say people- And it should
be ⦠work on that till the end
of your, un- And it should be
until the end of their lives.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's like the
gift that keeps on giving.
Knowing the answer to that
question can reveal a whole
lot of healing and recovery-
Speaker: Yeah
⦠Sam: that needs to take
place in your life.
I would issue that challenge.
Go figure out what sex means to you.
You're welcome to email us, talk
to your spouse, whatever you need.
Speaker 2: amen.
Speaker 3: Thanks for watching.
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