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Church and Main is a podcast at the intersection of faith and modern life. Join Pastor Dennis Sanders as he shares the stories of faith interacting with the ever-changing world of the 21st century.
Music.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Church and Main, the podcast at the intersection
of faith and modern life.
Happy spring. I'm actually recording this on the first day of spring here in Minnesota.
But of course, that means that there will be snow. We're actually supposed to
be getting snow later this weekend on this coming weekend.
So, you know, it's Minnesota. So, of course, we are going to get a spring snowstorm.
But anyway, I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
Church and Main is a podcast that is always looking for God in the midst of
the issues that are affecting the church, but also the wider society.
Learn more about the podcast or listen to past episodes,
and even if you want, donate by checking us out at churchandmain.org or at churchandmain.substack.com.
And especially on the Substack site, you will see some articles that I've written.
I hope that wherever you listen, you will consider subscribing to the podcast
and your favorite podcast app.
And I hope that you will consider leaving a review. That helps others find the podcast.
So this podcast, for pretty much as long as it has been around,
and unfortunately it's had several names, but this is the permanent name. It's not changing.
Don't worry. Um, this podcast for the longest time since it's been here has
been one that is focuses on, for the most part, um, what's going on,
um, in the mainline Protestant church because I am a mainline Protestant pastor.
Now, it doesn't mean that I don't care or have no interest in,
um, evangelical, what's going on in the evangelical church world.
Um, I actually claim that as part of my heritage along with the black church.
Um, but I've also been part of the mainline church for over 30 years now,
and it's basically my spiritual home. Um,
I care a lot about this tradition, and I worry about its continued decline,
especially in my own denomination, the Christian Church Disciples of Christ.
I want to see this tradition survive, and my reasoning for that is personal,
because it's really the only place where I, as a gay man, can fully participate
in the whole life of the church.
This is also the place where my husband, who is a music director,
can be at a congregation, and not worrying about being drummed out because he's gay.
So because of that, I want to see this tradition survive.
I want it to steer away of some dangerous ditches that it might find itself in.
And I'm always on the lookout by pastors and congregations that are not just
trying to manage decline, but are actually doing something different,
providing a different way of being church and trying to uphold the tradition.
Now, I've interviewed a number of people, a number of these people in the past on this podcast.
And today you're going to hear one more. And that person is David Emery.
David is the lead pastor of Harvard Avenue Christian Church,
Disciples of Christ in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
He has served there since 2020.
Probably not the best time to start at a new church, but that is when he started.
He has a reputation for growing churches, for reaching new people and transforming lives.
And he's done that in pretty much every church that he has served throughout
his ministry. He has served in congregations in Arkansas, Texas, and Kentucky.
And if you wanted to ask kind of a trivia question about what his favorite scripture
passage is, by the way, mine is Romans 5.8, he would tell you basically whatever
I'm preaching on this week.
He is an avid runner and a multiple marathoner, and he enjoys spending time
with his wife, Teresa, and their children and grandchildren. children.
And I really enjoyed chatting with David. And as he said off mic,
we are newfound friends.
So let's hear this conversation with David Emery here on Church and Main.
Music.
Well, thank you, Dave, for showing up. And I'm looking forward to this interview.
Yeah, thank you for inviting me to be a part of this, Dennis.
I'm really looking forward to talking with you, too. Yeah, cool.
So I think starting out, I kind of wanted to talk about knowing a little bit
about where you're a pastor at your church in Tulsa and kind of how you got
there, kind of your journey to getting to that church.
So I grew up, Dennis, in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and got my call to ministry
when I was in high school and went to Texas Christian University and then off
to Vanderbilt for my master's. Thank you.
And I spent the last 17 years in Louisville, Kentucky at Middletown Christian Church.
And after 17 years, I got a call to come here to Harvard Avenue Christian Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
And I started in March of 2020. So it's exactly.
Yeah, I moved. As our conversation today, three years ago today,
we moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma.
And and when we
moved here uh it was at the beginning of the pandemic um
the church had had a really good 10-year run uh
mark briley had a very successful ministry here was very well loved and appreciated
was a young pastor and uh he moved back to his hometown in columbia missouri
where he became the pastor broadway christian church and then um about a year
and a half before forthcoming here,
I began to discern that maybe God was calling me to a new journey, to something new.
And got a call to come here, and they reached out to me, and we started.
And it's been a really, it was a difficult beginning, but it's been a great four years.
It was not what I expected when I got here, obviously, because I walked into
a building when there was no one in the room.
And so 2020 as you know was kind of a tumultuous year for a lot of things in
the world the election and all the things happening in our culture and so I
was getting to know a new town new place it was really difficult for my wife
because we left behind family and friends and and moved here.
But it's been a good it's been a good four years and actually,
The pandemic, it was tragic and terrible in so many respects.
However, in the end, it kind of ended up working in our favor because the church
was in a place when it needed to make some changes.
And they called me to help the church enter a new season, a new decade of ministry,
and to lead with vision and helping to clear about their values and direction
and what was next for the church to discern the future. future.
And so that's something that's been a part of my skillset in the places that I've served.
And so the pandemic allowed us to just after, after,
you know, six, eight months, nine months a year into this thing,
allowed us to come back and let go of some things that we needed to let go of
that we probably would have had a hard time letting go of.
Uh, and some of the things that we let go in some of the changes we made,
it wasn't easy, but it's produced some really good, healthy, healthy growth for us.
So that's how I got here, yeah. So what were some of the things that you had to learn to let go?
That those are things that can be really hard for churches to do.
Yeah, so the temptation was, the church was, it's a healthy congregation.
It's been relatively conflict-free.
And, uh, fairly good size congregation. Uh, however, the congregation had been
more, uh, uh, uh, more of a programmatic church activity oriented.
I really committed to serving the community. Uh, but we were moving more to
a transformational model.
That's the term I would use a discipleship model, uh, to being very intentional
about how we're growing and developing people. And so that meant not being a
church that's trying to do a hundred things, but doing a few things really well.
And probably the two biggest changes we made was we changed the service times and compressed them.
They used to have a nine o'clock worship time, modern service,
followed by Sunday school hour and followed with the traditional worship.
And that Sunday school had been sort of the heart of the church for a long time.
But after the pandemic, we brought the two services together,
9, 30, and 11, in order to be able to welcome more young families,
because young families don't want to come at 11, but they don't want to come at 9.
So if the church is going to welcome young families to the church.
9, 30 is a really good time to do that.
At the same time, we let go of our traditional Sunday school program,
because we have six or seven classrooms,
and we had some classes after after the pandemic that were just exhausted from
leading and didn't have the will or desire to continue.
And so we moved to a life, a very intentional life group model.
And we still have some, two really strong older adult Sunday school classes
that still meet, that are heart and life of the soul of the church.
But now we've gone from having six classes to
now we have uh 19 life groups plus these two classes and and those 19 life groups
have over 200 people involved in them and then we got another hundred a hundred
or more people involved in the two sundays so we've got our worship but we've got uh uh,
Probably 75% of our average worship attendance involved in some sort of small group or class.
And it's really been life-giving. They had tried for years, Dennis,
to create a traditional Sunday school class for young families.
And it was really hard for me to grasp the idea that young families weren't
going to be here every week.
And if you're trying to build a class for people that could be here every week, it just doesn't work.
And so we went to this every other week model.
Now we've got three small groups with seven to ten young couples or young adults
or young families from 30 to 40 in three groups that meet at different times
and whatever works for them.
So that was the biggest change, the biggest change, one of the biggest changes for the church.
And some of it was the transition from a different, a very beloved pastor to
another pastor with a different style of preaching and leadership and emphasis.
And so with the life group, it's basically a small group. Yes.
And what made you kind of think that that was kind of the way to go?
Was it because it was more flexible for younger families?
Because we knew there was more flexibility involved in it.
And it was going to be because i knew that
the church was going to was going we have a really great music program and i
knew that the church would grow and that we would be adding people and the problem
was a traditional sunday school program is they can be very un mostly or fairly
unwelcoming to to new people because what happens is if you have it if it's at 10 o'clock,
people arrive late and they leave early and then new people show up on time.
And they're the first people in the room. And then these people have had relationships
going on for 15 or 20 years, and it's hard to fit in.
When you walk into a Sunday school room and you have pictures of people on the
wall who were a part of the class, you immediately go, I don't think that works
for me. And it's been a wonderful part of the heritage.
And most of those people who were in those classes have now filtered into groups. groups.
But what it does is it creates a greater level of community,
greater opportunity for inclusivity, more flexibility for people and for their work schedule.
This is the first time my wife and I, in 30 plus years of ministry,
have been able to be in a group together.
And we meet with our group every other week, and we've become very close to
this group of about 13 or 14 people. But by the way, my wife and I started a group with 14 people.
We then led that group for eight weeks.
And then everybody went off and started new life groups out of that that we trained.
And then we started another group and we split that group in half.
And that's one of the ways that these groups have kind of taken off and have moved forward.
We've also sort of let go. We don't really have a traditional committee system anymore.
We want people involved in greeting, serving in the community,
and not busying people with busy church activities.
Young families, people don't want to be involved in just meeting for committee's sake.
And so we have really focused on the things that are really important to us
and what we do. And so we're not just occupying people's energy with busy work, committee work.
One thing I think I remember hearing from maybe from another podcast that you
were on was about kind of how you deal with staffing.
Music.
Yeah. And when is it, how does the staffing kind of flow with your mission and vision?
And what happens when there are people who aren't kind of, they may have been
there for a long time, but they may not be where the church should be heading,
or at least where the vision is.
How have you kind of dealt with all of that? And what made you kind of come
to some of those conclusions about how you deal with staffing?
Well, one of the things I'd say about Harvard. Harvard has been really fortunate
to have great people serve over the last decade.
Mark had recruited a really great team.
And the church is really good to its staff.
They really, it's a great place to serve. And that culture makes it easier to
recruit people to the staff.
What we did was we, you know, with a new leader, new leadership style,
Um, and I, I walked into a really good, highly functioning team,
but over the four years, uh, the staff has begun to transition and people have
been called to other places of ministry and are doing very well in those places.
Um, but what happened was, uh, we went through a visioning process.
We worked with an outside firm, two outside firms to do two things.
The first thing we worked with was a firm to help us get clear about vision,
about direction. direction, where are we? What stage are we in our life cycle?
And what are we going to be doing over the next 36 months as a church to reach
people in our community and to exercise, to use the gifts that God has given
us through ministry in this community? So we got really, really clear about that.
Part of that process also meant taking a look at our staffing and how we were
staffing staffing, so that we got a clarity.
One of the things that I observed when I first got here was there was a lot
of overlapping roles and a lack of clarity about some of the roles that different people played.
And so now as we begin to develop a mission for where we're going into the future,
we needed to put together a staffing structure and align our staff to the vision,
values, and direction of the church.
So what often happens, the reason churches can't get momentum momentum is because
first of all, when they do a set aside, um, determine vision values,
direction and strategy, they just keep doing the same stuff they were doing
before. And it's an add on.
When you do that, you have to realign your mission, your values,
your, the, the, the organization, how you spend your energy resources and your staffing. Okay.
So the thing that this group did was they helped us put together a staffing plan that helped.
It's our target staffing plan for how we're going to move to the next level
in terms of how we're going to effectively do mission in our community with
the resources that God has given us.
And so we put that together and it's
been tremendous because it's given us clarity and
a greater sense of unity and a greater sense
of direction and um so we've
had some people who uh have gone on to other things and uh uh and so it's been
a it's it's been uh it's been at times painful because people love the people
they love on their on their team and and some Some would say, gosh,
it's been a big change of staff since you became the pastor.
But however, it's been over a four-year period that we've had that change.
Grateful for all the people that have served here.
And we're now, I think we're really functioning well because everybody has a
clear sense of purpose and direction for what we're doing.
Is that what you're looking for? Is that helpful? It is. Exactly. Thank you.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So one of the things and the reasons I wanted to talk to you
is I think overall looking at especially mainline Protestantism these days,
especially post-COVID,
you have a lot of congregations that are...
For lack of a better word, are struggling. Some have closed,
and some are still trying to kind of figure things out in, I think,
a very changed environment.
And I think one of the things is to, and I'm fascinated in, is finding out those churches that are,
seeming to do things and seeming to show vibrancy, and to figure out what's
happening, Kind of what's going on within mainline Protestantism.
We're both in the same denomination, the Christian Church of the Sacrament of
Christ, which, to be blunt, has shown a lot of steep decline over the last few decades. decades.
And Venice, I was thinking about this. So I was ordained in 1987.
And when I look around at the church that we now serve, that you and I serve
together, it doesn't look anything like the church that I was ordained to serve
in 1987 in terms of leadership,
size of congregations, the work that we're doing.
Some of that's good. Some of it's not good. But the church has dramatically changed, as you noted.
Yeah. It's a lot of change.
What do you think has brought on that change? And like you said,
some of it can be good, but some of it hasn't been.
I think, you know, I would not be presumptuous.
I don't want to be presumptuous to speak for the whole church.
I have some opinions and some viewpoints on that.
I think it has a lot to do with the, we have this great, we have this great
theology in the Christian church, Disciples of Christ.
There's an openness to it, an appreciation for diversity of thought and opinion
and giving the people the ability to read, to read scripture and to interpret it on their own.
And that is rich and vibrant. It's, and you can't find that everywhere.
And we and the disciples consider consider that to be a strength, not a liability.
And the problem is, well, and I think it's very attractive.
We've been attracting people to Harvard for that reason.
The people who are choosing Harvard are choosing it because of a couple things.
One is because we value theological humility or theological diversity.
And the second is because of radical hospitality. totality.
Welcome to all. Those are really powerful things and engaging and people are
looking for that in a faith community.
But I think that one of the issues
is that we have put that theology in a structural coffin and buried it.
I'm trying to use evocative language because we have the structure. We love the structure.
We love our way of doing church. We love our personal preferences more than
we love the good news of Jesus Christ that I described in our way of being church.
And so our inability and our lack of flexibility in terms of how we organize
ourselves has brought about the decline.
Holding on to old ways of doing church and forgetting what the essence of us
are. And I think also, I think part of the decline also is that we have forgotten
that we are a church that values diversity.
And I think I'm concerned about, first of all, let me say, we are a church that
practices radical hospitality for everyone.
And that's true of our church and true of the last church I served.
However, I am concerned that our churches, the disciples have lost their sense
of theological humility. that it's a hard place to be if you're more theologically
conservative or you have a more evangelical orientation.
And if you don't line up behind the social positions of...
Behind the social positions, social position positions of some some in our church.
It's just it's just an uncomfortable place to be.
And so I think as we I just think personal viewpoint is that I think we've lost
our sense of appreciation for diversity of thought and opinion.
And that we we have fallen into the same trap as what we see happening in the
evangelical church and going this way.
And we've forgotten that the disciples, some of our strength is being a purple
church, that Ronald Reagan and LBJ were both members of our church.
It doesn't mean that we don't stand for anything. It just means that we want
to be a church that's for people, that welcomes people.
But it's really easy in the world we live in to become a church that's defined
by what we're against and not what we're for. So I think that there's a,
I do think it's structural.
I do think some of it is theological and humility, lack of humility.
And then I also think that we've just sort of given up on the local church and
that a lot of our work is that it's a leadership issue.
Oh, I forgot to mention this. I'm thinking out loud here.
I forgot to mention this one, is that I think we're very suspicious of other
ways of leading the church outside our theological tradition.
And so I think we have a lot we can learn from other faith traditions that may
not see the world the way that we always do.
And I think that that has done harm to us. I think there's some things that
we can learn from others.
And we've been very inwardly focused.
Yeah, because I think that that is a thing going on throughout much of our society
today, is that a lot of our institutions were built as big tent institutions,
or to borrow kind of a phrase from, I think, the Episcopalians, a broad church.
Yeah. And we don't have that anymore. It seems like we have...
Really opted for siloing ourselves um so that everyone thinks the same and obviously
that's going throughout all
of our institutions throughout society it's so it's not just the church.
But you know that brings up kind of a and there are a few questions that all
this brings up but you know about theological humility is why do you think that
it's so important for mainline Protestantism,
and especially for the disciples of Christ?
That's a great question. Let me add one little thing I want to say.
In terms of practicing humility, I also realize that the context you're serving
in is different from the context I'm serving in.
And the context, I have some dear friends that are serving in a church in San
Diego go in California, and they're all different contexts.
And so I would not be presumptuous to assume that the way that I see things
and the way that I do ministry is going to work in different contexts.
I think you have to understand your community and how you work there.
But I do think that there is a vital place for a church that wants to truly welcome all people.
And by all, I mean all people, not just those who agree the way that we agree.
Because a lot of times when we say all are welcome, what we really,
when we say all means all, what that really means is all who think the way that
we think. And it's disingenuous.
So why do I think, the question is, why do I think that theological humility
is important? Because it's so lacking in our culture.
We are in a very polarized and divisive time. time.
And we're facing what may be one of the more hate-filled, toxic election seasons
in the history of our country,
where everything is being, this is going to be an election that's going to end democracy.
This is going to be an election that's going to end, you know,
it's about saving Christianity and the American way of life.
You know, you got these two poles.
And I'm afraid afraid and concerned that the church itself is falling into that same trap.
And when you look at the ministry of Jesus, when he talks about love,
love of your enemies, what good does it do to love those that love you back?
Um, that whole, the whole Sermon on the Mount and the way you look at Jesus,
the way he loved people, uh, he loved unconditionally.
And, um, I think that what the world sorely needs is humility.
And I think that theological humility really is the heart of who we are as disciples.
And I just believe that the church has a powerful role to play, not just for justice.
Justice and for, you know, a justice,
but also embodying the teaching of Jesus, which is ultimately about humility
and that we can learn something from people who feel differently from us.
I know this, that there's a bad way to make an enemy and there's a good way to make an enemy.
Enemy the bad way to make an enemy is hate
exclusion injustice hostility but
the good way to make an enemy is to love the way that jesus loved and
the bad way of making an enemy there's no hope of that enemy ever ever becoming
something someone different to you but the hope the other way is loving the
way that jesus loved gives us the capacity to not only change our heart but
changed the heart of another person.
And I think that the church could not play a more important role in our world
today than being a place where people come together from widely different backgrounds.
And learn to talk to one another and learn to love one another.
And I just think that brings glory to God and embodies the teaching of Jesus
to be a place of real conversations. Not so easy.
But I'm super passionate about that.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting kind of going just for a moment to the political realm.
Yeah. And actually, even yesterday, I shared this on a comment page on a website,
which probably was dangerous,
of trying to listen to people that we don't agree with. And in this case was Trump supporters.
And so many people were immediately or like
well this is pointless and this is stupid um and just no one wanted to listen
no one wanted to there was just no sense of humility and it wasn't you know
i wasn't saying that you have to agree with them or that you have to give up what what you believe,
but it was just to have some, to be willing to kind of listen to what someone
is saying, and maybe try to connect with them in a way.
And it's just fascinating how that is, not just in the political realm,
that's one place, but we just don't want to listen to one another anymore, and that there is a fear,
really a fear of the other, that they are dangerous,
or they're stupid, or what have you.
And we don't think that...it almost feels like a dehumanization,
in that we don't see someone as a child of God.
Right. And I especially see that among Christians these days.
And it's not just the people we would think would look at things that way,
but throughout the political spectrum, it's a sense that we dehumanize each other.
We had a, in my former congregation, we had a welcome statement and I can't
remember it exactly, but it was something like, Middletown Christian Church
welcomes all people. I think they still use it.
And by welcoming all people, we mean Republicans and Democrats,
regardless of your political orientation, your sexual orientation,
race, economic level, all this sort of thing.
And it was really a beautiful statement.
And we had a member of the congregation who just had some progressive colleagues
who were really frustrated by the social media posting of this particular individual
who did not share their theological or political point of view. too.
I'm trying not to reveal anybody's point of view here, but, and they would get,
sometimes they'd come to staff meeting, and I would hear them talking about
this particular individual.
You know, I can't believe he thinks that way. How can he think that way?
How does he, how does he feel as comfortable here at the church, and this sort of thing?
The conversation went on a few times. Well, we shared on social media our welcome
statement, so I went to the staff meeting the next week, and I said,
hey, do you remember so-and-so So we've been talking about, I said,
I noticed that he shared our welcome statement.
So obviously he thinks it means him too.
It means him too. And so I just think that the way to kill the church is to
push out people who have different political views than we do.
I'm not saying it means we condone things, condone everything,
but there's a reason why people believe the things that they believe.
And some of it's because they feel marginalized themselves.
And listening doesn't mean that we agree.
Listening means that we're loving and we're trying to be good humans.
Some people will never be convinced. Some people will never be on board.
But Jesus says love them anyway.
It doesn't matter whether we're to love them anyway, without any expectation
of return. Boy, it's really challenging, isn't it? It is.
There was, and maybe you remember this, it was several years ago before General
Assembly for the denomination, when Sharon Watkins was general minister and president.
And this was basically dealing on issues regarding sexuality.
And she talked about the, and she used the language of the communion table and
about the importance of trying to stay at the table.
And it was a beautiful, I think, and challenging word that she brought.
But it was interesting how people responded to it.
Because they wanted to have people stay at the table as long as they agreed with them.
If they didn't have the same viewpoint, especially on sexuality issues,
they couldn't be at the table.
And I kind of thought, I don't think it works that way.
But that's kind of where we are at. And, um, I'm concerned, go ahead.
I'm concerned. I'm concerned. We, we are fencing off our table again.
Ah, yes. I'm concerned. We fenced off our table again.
And, uh, we are pushing out, we are pushing out people who want to be a part
of an inclusive church, but are, can't agree with everything that we believe.
Mm-hmm. And I think that that's sad to me and it's unfortunate.
I don't think it reflects the DNA of who we are as disciples.
I think it betrays our core value.
Why do you think, though, that they want to fence off the table?
Can't answer that for them. I don't know. I don't know why they do that.
I don't know why someone would want to do that. But I do know that it happens.
And I'm trying not to do it, too. So let me confess something here. Okay?
So we're in our best information class. We do it every month.
Newcomers come. And we sit and we talk about our core values.
And I went on about theological humility and how important it is.
Talked about our inclusion and radical hospitality all these core values and
we went through this whole thing and then this woman says in the group she says
oh i just love this this is such a wonderful church and she said she said you
know who i really i would admire and listen to and still give money to uh to charles stanley.
And uh and i said yeah i know charles stanley different theology from mine,
and i immediately caught myself look at
the pride in that and i had to
back and i confessed it to my staff member later on i said look at that here
i'm talking about theological humility and then i just pushed somebody i completely
disagree with in so many ways about his treatment about women and the lgbt community
and just push him to the side and just reflected such a lack of humility,
and didn't think, I should have asked him, why do you like Charles so much?
Instead of saying, yeah, a different theology, trying to push him away.
It's really hard to do that. It's hard to resist it, particularly for me.
No, I can agree with that.
It's easy to be kind of part of the group and where we all agree,
because I think that's human nature, and that's hard to fight against.
And I really think it's only...
In Christ that we can kind of bridge that, but that's hard.
The, uh, the church has to be a safe place for people who are gay and lesbian.
And so, and who have been hurt and wounded by the church.
And so we have to make sure that it is in the language and the way that we talk
and speak around the table.
Um, and so I don't want to, I don't want to dismiss that as being a reality
that it hasn't been a safe place for people.
And, um, you know, the churches, the church that I serve here is inclusive and
the church I left was, um, and that hasn't always been easy.
Um, not so much here, but decisions that we made in the church I served,
uh, it was a difficult transition at times. Um.
But I saw the church become more inclusive and saw it welcoming more young adults
to the church and it continues to do so, but it doesn't mean we have to push away others. No, no.
So one of the things also that I've been fascinated about over the last few
years is, and I see this encountered over and over again and in leadership,
sometimes maybe even among pastors or people is almost not an interest in the
local church, in seeing the church as a gathered community.
And i i guess i'm trying to figure out for you why does the local church matter,
and why should it i mean why should it matter because i feel like sometimes we don't,
the way that sometimes we operate is as if it doesn't um that i don't know how
they think that people think the church works but that it doesn't need a local
gathered community of people um,
And so I guess I'm asking the question to you, why do you think that local churches
matter and that we should make those churches matter?
Let me ask you a question back first. Do you think that certainly is,
that that is, I mean, what makes you think that there are folks who feel the
local church does not matter?
And what does matter from that point
of view for some? Um, what gives you reason to think that to be true?
I think how, um, I've seen,
um, whether it's middle judicatories or larger bodies and how they invest or
try to help to resource local congregations or don't resource them.
And how some people, when they talk about church,
it seems like it's more important to have the right positions on certain issues
more than it is people gathering on a Sunday morning or whenever they gather together.
So it's those things that I kind of pick up. So it's not something that's stated.
It's not something that people say, but it's in the action sometimes that I
see that makes me wonder.
I see that too, and it really does represent the death of our church.
If the church just becomes a speaking body speaking to social issues in our
culture, there's no reason to have a gathered community. community.
And as long as there are endowments and resources to live on,
there'll be a handful of people able to do that work and feel good about the
work they're doing. I know that it brings some value, but ultimately,
without the local community, there is no church.
Without the gathered community, without a worshiping body in a local place, there is no church.
The Christian Church Disciples of Christ is a congregationally based church.
And to move away from that is to move away from the heart of the church.
And so Christianity essentially is a communal faith.
Jesus called disciples to live in community with him.
They were a gathered community. And we in a world that's isolated with depression
and anxiety and fear, people need each other more than more than ever.
And so this is an opportunity for the church to create real community for people.
And so where else in the world can people of different ages gather together
in a community together, except in the church? church.
I think that where else can you see an intergenerational gathering of people.
Or people with different ideas in one space together?
It's not happening because people are living in tribes.
And so the church itself,
the body of Christ is the Holy Spirit, God's presence and goodness and glory
lives in the gathered people, that we can't hear from God if we're hearing from
God only in and of ourselves.
We hear from God in the midst of community.
And so for me, I think one of the challenges that occurred during the pandemic
is that all I heard from our church leadership,
all I heard, and I don't want to be too harsh about this, all I heard from our
church leadership was over the social stuff that was happening in our culture.
And I heard very little words given to an encouragement given to pastors who
were trying to lead congregations.
Because it's not just the people who are in our communities over there,
over there, over there that need God's love and concern.
It's also the people in our congregation. We've got families trying to raise their kids.
Kids that are struggling with, you know,
the social media depression anxiety fear
they're trying to put their kids through school they're trying to raise their
families or individuals or widow widows who are living on their own you know
and the gospel is not just for people out there but it's for people who live
here it's for our community and when we do life together and so um.
Um, I see such great beauty where people gather together around the table of
the Lord and share a meal together.
And I don't know how you do that without gathering. Let me give you an example.
So I shared with you before that, I'd show you an example. This is my latest example of this.
So we have a guest information class and this is the same class was referring to earlier.
And we had, uh, we had, uh, some older people and some younger people in there in this class.
Class and there was uh an older
woman in her 80s who was at the class who
lost her husband three years ago and she's just
started attending our church and after the class is over we walk around i give
them a tour of the building and my favorite part of the tour is we go to the
youth space and so we have a pretty vibrant and active youth ministry and we've
got like 25 junior high boys And they're just like,
you know, it's lucky somebody's not bleeding or whatever. Very, very active.
So we're walking around and I'm introducing these to the folks.
And so Miss Gloria is about to leave and go out of the parking lot.
And I said, Gloria, I'd rather you not walk to your car by yourself.
I said, she was at the other end of the parking lot. It's dark.
And I said, would one of you boys be glad to walk with Miss,
escort Miss Gloria to her car?
And this sixth grade boy walks over, just like you're going to a wedding,
puts his arm through her arm like this, like this, and escorts her out of the building.
And another boy got on the other arm, and they start walking.
And 10 junior high boys, arm in arm, walked her out to her car.
And you should have seen the look on Gloria's face. She was like.
That's probably the first time she'd been touched all day by another person.
But probably the first time in weeks she'd been embraced by a middle school boy,
and i walked out thinking that's the
gospel right there that's what it means to be in christian community and those
boys the you know i'm sure that maybe they have grandparents that are close
to them i said what a beautiful thing and so one of the things that we're doing
here is is we're We're really trying to focus on what it means to build an intergenerational community.
And it changes, you know, because youth have been, another example,
youth have been siloed off here and there.
One of the strengths of disciples that we have to offer smaller congregations
is this intergenerational thing.
And so we want to mimic what larger churches are doing.
And it's a mistake is to find a way to make, you know, instead of having a youth
choir, have a youth in the choir.
Instead of having a youth Sunday, have youth participate in worship.
Instead of having the elders, you know, take communion or a meal to one of our
homebound, let the elders and the youth go do that. Let families do that.
So I do think that people are searching for belonging.
People are searching for connection. And
I think the church has something counterculture to offer that right now.
That's the best example I can think of right now I think it's a wonderful example
yeah and a great example of kind of what I think you know going back to thinking
about some of the early church and how it was different from the,
church of the society of the Roman Empire and that just reminds me of that of its value mm-hmm.
So, again, there's something that I heard you saying in another podcast that
is that, especially in mainline churches, sometimes we're good at managing decline.
And, of course, we are going through decline.
And in some cases, you have to try to deal with that, manage that.
But what do you think can change that mentality that we just don't become so
comfortable with being smaller and not necessarily growing for the sake of growth,
but that we're not just simply managing our decline?
Well, one thing, I've got a little pet peeve about something.
I see all these social media posts about people posting about how hard it is to be a pastor.
And I go to these workshops and things where it talks about pastors leaving
the ministry and because of frustration with the work and all that kind of stuff.
And I realize my situation is different from other people. And I have opportunities
that other people don't have here at Harvard, resources that others don't have. out.
But I think that we got to stop thinking that our job is worse than anybody else's job.
You know, I think that we do a lot of complaining and a lot of whining. We just need to stop it.
And because, um, and I don't want to dismiss somebody else's experience.
Um, but the reality is there's a lot of people in the world that have things pretty hard too.
We got not, uh, nurses, uh, anybody want to be a school superintendent right now?
Anybody want to be a chief of police right now, anybody want to be, you know, uh,
you know, uh, an emergency room physician or, you know, a social worker or who,
what about a CNA paid, you know, $15 an hour to care for a person's physical needs.
So I, I think that, that, uh,
I would like to see us have a lure, a little more empathy for other people and a little more, um,
let's get up and do something, you know
and um and and find
ways to encourage each other uh we don't have any worse
than anybody else there's a there's there's a
great resignation happening everywhere so it's not just ministers um so i do
i do think that we are more interested in we are we've just sort of given up
on the idea that we can grow congregations and that we can that code congregate
we just kind of accepted accepted decline.
And I don't think we have to, because I think we have something that people want.
And, um, I, I think that, that, uh, a lot of regional work, I mean,
in some ways and church work in some ways that we're doing more hospice work than we're doing.
We're doing, we're doing kingdom work.
And so if we're going to, if the church is going to die, let's go out in a big
bang. Let's do something worth dying for.
You know, let's, let's die for the right reasons.
Because we're trying to reach our community connect let's be brave let's be
bold um let's let's live let's live on purpose instead of dying without purpose,
and in a church without purpose uh is a dying church and so i think the key
to revitalization of any congregation is casting a clear vision for your congregation
about what God wants to do in your midst and in your community.
And believing that the gospel, the good news of Jesus' love for all people is
the hope that the world needs, that our lives are better because Christ is a part of our lives.
There's more to the churches than just being a nonprofit.
So I don't know if I answered your question or not. I think you did.
I think you did. But that leads me to a related question, because you've talked
a lot about people leaving ministry.
And there's a lot of people that have left ministry, and I'm always kind of
scratching my head of why.
And like you, I understand it can be challenging to be a pastor.
But I'm curious because, you know, you've been in the ministry now for quite some time.
What keeps you going? What keeps you remaining as a pastor? What has been helpful for you?
Well, I can tell you there have been times that I've wanted to walk out.
There have been times when I've dreamed about doing other things.
And maybe the only reason I didn't was I have no other discernible skills.
I remember my dad, my parents, neither one of them. I'm the first person in
my family to earn a college degree.
My parents didn't graduate from high school. They were wonderful.
My dad's passed away. My mom's still living. Wonderful. They were both faith-filled
people. My dad was a milkman, drove a commercial milk route his entire life,
died early because he broke his body.
But, you know, I've said over and over again that, man, I just wish I could be a milkman like my dad.
Just get up and, you know, my dad had a great ministry driving a milk truck
and he didn't have to deal with all the stuff I got to deal with,
you know, that sort of thing.
A lot of times I wanted to do it. But, you know, I have just hung in there year
after year after year because I love the work and I love seeing people's lives
changed and transformed by the good news of Jesus.
And I believe in it. And it's a part of my core thing. And I think part of it,
my longevity has something to do with physical health and well-being.
And that in my 40s, I made some decisions about my physical health.
I was an overweight person in my 40s and began a physical discipline of exercise
and running that changed the direction of my life.
It's given me energy and vitality later in my life. And then I think continuing
to practice spiritual practices and reaching out and having good friends in
ministry that support and love me.
And that I can call and talk to. Um, I've got some great friends in ministry
doing, doing ministry that we do live together that have been so encouraging and helpful to me.
And, uh, I don't, I can't speak to anybody else's experience,
but, um, I'm so happy that I have stuck this out over the years.
And at the end of, you know, I'm 62 and, uh, I think I got a good,
You know, maybe I get a good seven years, maybe 10 years of good ministry left.
And I kind of see it as a marathon, 26.2.
And I want to finish well. But I do think it has to do with physical health,
spiritual health, surrounding yourself by good people.
And if you're gonna do the work
do the hard work and if
you're in a place that people don't want to do the work with you
go someplace else it does no good to beat your head you know beat your head
up against the wall uh uh in some place that where people don't want to do anything
just let them die and move on but there are a lot of churches out there that
are looking for somebody that want to do something, that want to lead them somewhere.
It's not easy work, but boy, when stuff begins to turn around,
it is really gratifying and exciting.
And, you know, seeing that little boy walk with that older woman out there,
I can, I can, that's worth it, right?
It is. It is.
So, you know, we've talked about kind of theological humility and learning from
people who we may not always see with eye-to-eye.
So I'm kind of curious, coming from a mainline standpoint,
what things do you think we can learn from our more conservative sisters and brothers?
Is there anything that is worthwhile? I mean, we know there are things that
aren't, but what is worthwhile that we can learn and vice versa?
What can they learn from us? Okay.
Hey, can I add one more thought to what I just said? Go right ahead.
Key to long-term ministry is continuing to reinvent yourself and not just repeating
yourself over and over again.
So you got to continue to reinvent yourself over and over again. Okay.
To suit the needs of your situation and not just keep repeating yourself.
And sometimes you need to hang in where you are and become the new pastor the church is looking for.
Or you need to move to a new situation. And you've got to discern the difference between the two.
Okay, so your question is, repeat the question again. I couldn't get that out
of my head. So repeat it one more time.
Give me a hint. Give me a hint. What can we learn from those who are different
from us, especially theologically?
Yeah. Well, one of the things that I think that we got to do is we do need to
make friends with people who are different from us.
And we'll find that maybe they're not as different from us as we think they
are. Other pastors and I relate.
I have connections with people of all theological stripes and types here in Tulsa.
And I benefit a lot from those relationships. relationships and
um i think that i think
that one of the things that we can learn from
uh there's some leadership stuff that
we can learn on how to lead out of
how to be better leaders and uh some you know um i learned a whole lot now this
is going to get me chilled probably i learned a a whole lot in the early days
about leadership from the Willow Creek Community Church.
Now, we know how that situation turned out with sexual misconduct and all that.
But I learned a lot from working with them about how to build community,
about my role as the lead pastor, how to empower others for leadership, how to cast vision,
how to to align resources to accomplish vision. So.
You know, and I think a lot of it is leadership, and a lot of it is we don't
have the full essence of the gospel either.
We need to listen to other people to get a fuller picture of the gospel.
And so I have some friends here in town. uh um one who is southern baptist,
and one who uh retired from a church that disaffiliated okay and um i have learned
a lot from them because they serve much larger churches than the church that
i serve particularly around staffing.
And during the pandemic, we had no technology to do what we needed to do.
And I reached out to them and they helped me and were generous with their time
to talk to me about how to do some of the things that we needed to do.
And theologically, I don't agree with everything, but we don't even talk about
the things we disagree with.
We talk about the things that we care about. And I've been very intentional
about building relationships,
building relationships with them really don't see them that much different
um for me but as
long as we cloister together we can't with the people that we
mostly agree with we'll never um never never really fully understand who we
are i don't know if i've got it got really got the answer i'd have to think
about that a little bit longer no i think you did i think you did you gotta
get over our suspicion We're very suspicious of people,
and we are very, very, mainliners are very judgmental of others, very judgmental.
We, you know, we, you know, for instance, here in this community,
Life Church, Craig Groeschel, pastor is one of the largest churches in the world, actually.
He's based out of here in Oklahoma. homa and uh
most people who are you know
from a more liberal theological perspective wouldn't wouldn't
necessarily think that we can learn anything from him but we can and you know
they reach a lot of people in the community and they do a lot of good stuff
in the communities where they serve in fact they probably have more people in
attendance on a weekend than we have in our whole denomination on the weekend
can we learn something from them and just because they're They're more evangelical.
Evangelical doesn't mean we can't learn something from them.
Wherever their churches are located, they serve people who are under-resourced.
And do a lot of good to a lot of communities. Now, my statistic may not be right,
but I think it's pretty close.
You know, one of the things that I am fascinated by is sometimes that we,
and I think we've talked about this before, that we are, especially in mainline
churches, very much socially engaged, and that's important.
Important, but that we're not always looking at the families that are either
in our pews or in our communities that are dealing with a whole mess of problems.
Absolutely, yeah. Some of them are social, but some of them are just within the family.
And, you know, one of the things that I, growing up in my background,
is hearing kind of the concept of a heart for people in our communities.
Have our churches lost that? I mean, are we more geared into kind of social
issues than we are for actual people?
Or is that, am I a little off by thinking that? Or is that something that I observe? serve?
You know, I don't, I don't know.
I don't know that I, I don't really know where other people are on that.
It does, it does seem that way to me, but what I know is that the church is
also, the good news of Jesus is also for the people that sit in our congregations.
And, you You know, our teenagers are looking for meaning and for purpose.
And the idea that God loves you, that God has a purpose for you and for your
life, and that Jesus came not just for the marginalized person,
but also came for you too.
And I think that the sense of personal faith,
of inviting Jesus into your life, life, welcome into your life and repentance
and baptism and personal transformation is the key to change in the whole world.
Because otherwise, we don't need the church to do that. You might as well just join a nonprofit.
Jesus put a thermometer in front of the church and call it the United Way.
I mean, that's not an original statement. But I think that I think.
There's so many beautiful things about our mainline Protestant tradition.
Willingness to embrace curiosity and doubt, the inclusion,
looking at Scripture, theological education,
the ability to look at Scripture with all its richness and depth,
Not as a unified theological document,
but a variety of conversations coming together, painting this picture of what God is like.
And those are all beautiful things that we have to offer.
Tie that together with some of the things that you grew up in your evangelical
tradition with and that I grew up with, where, you know, Jesus,
I welcome Jesus into my heart.
And the reason I'm a minister today, because I believe that he loved me and
saved me from my sins, that I'm a sinner and saved me from my sins.
And I was baptized in the name of Jesus and died to my old life to be born again into a new life.
I don't think we should shy away from that conversation just because we may
think others have a, because we see other examples that are not healthy.
I think that those two things together, that sense that sort of,
for lack of better terms, evangelical heart with concern for the world we live
in and justice issues and inclusion,
when those two things come together, it's a powerful force in people's lives.
And if you want to recruit young people to transform the world and the church,
they have no reason to have anything to do with the church without this part.
Why would you want to be a part of the church?
What does the church have to say to their anxiety? What does the church have
to say to their fear of death?
What does the church have to say to their loneliness? What does the church have
to say to the things, to their life?
And so I get concerned sometimes when, you know, for the work we're doing with young people,
if all it is is social justice concerns and the Christian faith is about what
we're doing and not about who we're, and not all about what we're becoming.
Because of who Christ is in us, I'm not sure what, you know,
we're going to have just a very small group of people to do this work.
But if people want to learn more,
talk to you more about some of these issues, where can they find you?
On our website, for one thing. um uh h-a-c-c-h-a-c-c-tulsa.org is our website
and you can reach me at david at,
h-a-c-c-tulsa.org that's my email and then um also i would say you could you
can also find me on on facebook i don't use it a whole lot but i do i don't
if i wasn't a pastor i wouldn't be using Facebook.
The reason I use it is because it's a way of communicating stuff that we're
doing. So, hey, I've really enjoyed talking to you today.
And yes, likewise, forgive me for my pride. And,
I get excited when I'm talking about, and I don't want to betray my core value
of theological humility.
And I walk the edge all the time. okay I understand that and you know that's
the whole point of theological humility is to know that sometimes that we're
always walking the edge yep,
alright well thank you so much Dave and we will talk again soon I'd be glad
to talk to anybody that wants to engage further let me know thank you and thank
you Dennis you're welcome.
Music.
Well, as usual, I hope that you enjoyed listening to this conversation with David Emery.
I really enjoyed it. It's kind of funny.
We actually had a kind of pre-chat before we had our interview about a week prior.
And that was also a really good, good chat, a good talk.
He is someone that I enjoy to chat with.
And I am very thankful for him and for his congregation and that I hope that
that can help kind of continue the this tradition of mainline Protestantism.
You know, I agree that it's probably just one tradition, but it's an important
one. And I think it's something that's worth keeping. keeping.
And I'm thankful for people such as David that are trying to be church in a
different way in a new day.
So that is it for this episode of Church and Main.
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I'm Dennis Sanders, your host.
Take care, Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.
Music.