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Tired of being stuck in the trenches while watching others build empires? Welcome to the 50/50 Accelerator Podcast, where we're flipping the script on the traditional trade business model. I'm your host, Josh Patrick, and like you, I've spent countless nights wondering if there's a better way.
We bring you real conversations with business owners who've transformed their companies from time-sucking struggles into well-oiled machines. They'll share their exact blueprints—from finding reliable teams to creating systems that actually work. There is no theory, just battle-tested strategies that have helped them double their free time and cash flow.
Think of it as your weekly meetup with mentors who've cracked the code.
Josh Patrick Intro:
Since 1974, I've read a book a week searching for what it takes to achieve business success. After thousands of books, hundreds of client success stories and decades of hard-won business wisdom, here's what I know for sure Working yourself to death isn't a badge of honor. It's a failure of strategy. So thanks for joining us today. I'm Josh Patrick, and this is the 50-50 Accelerator, where we explore how real business owners are cutting their hours by 50% while growing their profits by 50%. No consultant BS here, no theoretical frameworks, just proven strategies from people who have actually done it. Because here's the truth If you're still working 65 or more hours a week, putting out fires and missing family dinners, it is what it is, but that's not how it has to stay.
So let's get started.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Hey, how are you today? This is Josh Patrick and you're at the 5050 Accelerator Podcast, and my guest today is Cynthia Kay from CK and Company, and she has a media production company, has been doing it for I don't know 40 years, has 11 people in the organization, and when we were doing our pre-interview, we had a fascinating conversation and I know she's going to be just an unbelievable guest and we're really lucky to have her here today. So let's bring Cynthia on. Hi Cynthia, how are you today?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I am well, and thank you so much for that kind introduction.
Josh Patrick (Host)
I was very impressed with our conversation we had a couple of weeks ago and I've been looking forward to today, so I'm very happy to have you.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Thank you.
Josh Patrick (Host)
So when we were talking a couple of weeks ago. You were telling me about your early partnership experience and how was a disaster. So can you tell us that story?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
You learn the most from the things that don't work. I've often said that, and when I started the business, I actually started it with a partner and I think I had this notion that I needed someone to complement the skills that I didn't have. So I had worked in broadcasting and had done a lot of production, investigative reporting, live talk shows. I wasn't as maybe techie as the business was, because you have people who do that. So when I started the media production company, I thought you know what I really need someone who's got more technical knowledge than I do. And it happened that I was working with someone and I thought what a perfect complement. I can do this part of it, he can do that part of it, and you put it together and it's great.
What I missed in all of that is that partnerships are I'm gonna say, even more critical sometimes than marriages, because, like a marriage, and you spend more time with that person than freakly you do with your family.
So we started the business out and I thought I had asked all the right questions and freakly I did it right on the legal side. Set the corporation up, had a partnership agreement, did all that checklist stuff that everybody tells you're supposed to do.
What I didn't consider were the soft skills, the personality differences, attitudes of people and frankly, a few years into the partnership, it started to be a problem because I wanted to move ahead and was thinking let's grow this business and he wanted to keep it really small, and it was one of those things that I think you don't think about asking those questions right. And so what I felt was that I really needed to refocus and so I came up with this concept as I was thinking back. By the way, I bought him out. It was somewhat painful, but actually we did it in about 75 days and we even went to business counseling before. We went to like a business counselor to help us work out our differences, and that didn't work. So when we decided that it was time, I went back later and thought about it and thought what are the questions I should have asked?
Josh Patrick (Host)
Can I interrupt you for a second, Cynthia?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Sure
Josh Patrick (Host)
So this sounds to me and this is a problem I see with even just hiring people. Is that, you two had a major values mismatch.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, we did.
Josh Patrick (Host)
And it likely would have served you well had you actually figured out what your values were and helped him figure out what his values were, and you would have likely seen the values mismatch. Which would have told you this partnership isn't gonna work.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah.
Josh Patrick (Host)
The complementary skill thing you have right to know, because if you're going to do a partnership they have to have complementary skills. Otherwise why do a partnership? But that's just the first three.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
You're 100%. I think maybe some of that is being the naive person as a younger person that you go. Oh we can work these things out and we couldn't work them out.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Well, there's two things there I think that were moving against you and making that mistake is perfectly rational, especially 30 or 40 years ago. And the reason very simply is number one you're a woman.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Oh, that's interesting.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Women more often than men ,way more often than men in my experience seek any partners.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
That's an interesting concept then I would tell you that maybe you're right. I don't know what the stats are on that but
Josh Patrick (Host)
It's a very big number.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Is it a big number? OkayI
Josh Patrick (Host)
It's a very big number and the other issue is you're young, and when you're young you're inexperienced. You say I need to get somebody with experience and the truth is sometimes that works out, but most of the time it doesn't. Because the way we choose that experience, you might get the experience but we don't get the culture right, which is what you just said.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, and the thing that I learned about all of this and in fact, I developed this concept I call it the business prenup, and I have a list of questions that I think you need to ask, and some of them may seem like simple things, but things like when you disagree. How does that person deal with conflict? Other things like when decisions need to be made. Is that person collaborative? Do they listen to you? Do they? And frankly, I one of the things I did really was I was the majority owner, so in the long run, I was able to get myself out of the situation.
Josh Patrick (Host)
So that's a relatively easy way to get out of that.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yes
Josh Patrick (Host)
50-50 partnerships often don't make sense.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I would agree with you. I think where we really need to think about partnerships, and I would agree with you it's a daunting task to start a business. I took out a home equity loan on my house and signed a personal guarantee and I was taking a lot of risk. And so you do want wanna yourself with good that good, but maybe you don't need to be a partner with those people. Maybe that's expertise you can buy.
Josh Patrick (Host)
You can buy.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
And that's what I came to.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yeah. Some people, partnerships I will with, make I can do without, and with most private business owners are actually better off being solos and hiring the people they need.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent and that's something that over the years. I was glad that I made the transition early enough in the career of the business, before I had gotten too far into it, because once you start doing things like buying buildings together and I mean making all of those investments. Then you've got more things to deal with. So I think but I do think I just recently had the experience where I went and visited two women business owners. And I will tell you they've got it right, but what they have is very unique. You don't find them a lot. They are great partners and have been great partners. But I think you really need to approach partnerships with a lot of skepticism, and that's what I say to people starting a business today. Do you really need that person? Are you better off to keep that as a contract relationship or an employee that you hire? Do you really need them on your staff?
Josh Patrick (Host)
Those are really good questions as I ask. You said something which is really cool, because I use that term all the time when I call they shareholder's agreement, the partnership prenup.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah
Josh Patrick (Host)
And the reason you want to do that while you're forming your business is because you're getting along.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yes
Josh Patrick (Host)
If you do a shareholder's agreement when you're not getting along? The chances of that being successful and the business not being blown up has just become way less than if you had you done at the beginning of the business.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
The other thing that I think about too is, people are excited when they want to start a business and they wanna make it work, and so sometimes people also say things to please the other person and so you have to. There's where you wanna believe the person and they probably are saying it in the best possible light, but long-term they really get stick to.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yeah
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I think the other side of it too that I see with partnerships is that if you have for example, at the time I was single, right, and this was a person who got married and started having children and I mean there are different needs there are and how you gonna managed. Those are questions you need to ask. How are you going to accommodate dealing with family issues? How are you gonna deal with when things don't go right and you might need to take a salary reduction? How are you going all? You have to think of all the bad things that will happen and think about how you would deal with them so that you don't have to do it when you find yourself in a tough spot. And the truth of it is, if you're in business for any length of time, you are gonna hit rough patches. It's just part of the job.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yep, it's really too bad. Attorneys have not really figured out how to help their clients form partnerships, because they have no clue what to ask. It's basically for them. This is my standard form and this is how we do it.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, hopefully people have a team of good people who will ask those questions and I guess I would tell you anybody who comes to you with a standard form is poliness somebody you want to work with, because they're not looking at you as a unique entity. Might be need define some new resources.
Josh Patrick (Host)
The challenge with an attorney that comes with their standard form is you don't know what's their standard form.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
That's probably true.
Josh Patrick (Host)
It's partnership agreement, and a partnership agreement has got a lot of standard stuff in it. But before you get to the partnership agreement, it would be really useful for the attorney and they don't do this because that's not what they're trained to do to ask the questions. Startups A have a couple of problems. One is they don't have any money.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
That's true
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yeah. So they can't afford and I'm talking about the vast majority of the startups, I'm not talking about the venture-funded ones in Silicon Valley or in Boston.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Absolutely.
Josh Patrick (Host)
They don't have any money. So, as a result, they can't afford to hire competent advice when they're starting. And on top of that, as Michael Gerber likes to say, most entrepreneurs or most business owners are entrepreneurs or business owners having an entrepreneurial cramp, or technicians having an entrepreneurial cramp which I find true and as a result they don't know where to go for advice.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
But I will tell you, I think the reason that I was able to successfully get out of the business and do it well is that I had a great attorney who actually took the time and then frankly, when negotiating the buyout, also was kind enough for that client and I will say my attorneys did a great job. We did a good job of dissolving the partnership and being able to move on. And unfortunately, that helped me to just move on. And I think at that point to your, you know, to your comment about thinking that you need someone. I thought I did need someone and what I discovered very soon after I bought my partner out is that I really didn't need them. So some of it's a mind thing.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Why some of it's a mind thing.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah,
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yes, It's not what we need, and what we think we need are often two different things.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely.
Josh Patrick (Host)
And in my experience, if one partner, this is especially true with a partner who 50's and 20 years old and have any partner. The junior and the senior partner likeit's time for retirement get into a war because the senior partner wants as much money as they possibly can, the junior partner is concerned about affording them to buy out.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, I feel like some of that is going away. It's really interesting. There are a number of organizations that I know that add shareholder partners who are becoming ESOPs, and that's fascinating because it puts everybody more on that, even platform.
Josh Patrick (Host)
My next recording is with an ESOP expert.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Really, that's great.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yeah, and the interesting thing about ESOPs this is where another challenge comes in. A they're complicated, B they're expensive and C They really don't work unless you have 25 or more employees.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely. I can tell you it would not have worked in my organization or not. Because I actually researched it. But we're not big enough.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yeah, not big enough. You really need 25 people.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah, there's some things, there's some unique challenges that smaller entities have but that doesn't mean we can't overcome them. We just have to be more creative. Frankly.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yap, Let's talk about hiring a little bit, because that's like your first cousin to partnerships, because you're essentially hiring a partner when you do a partner. What have you learned about hiring over the years?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I actually have. That is part art and part science. Here's what I have learned. I think it's really important that when you are hiring people, you have the opportunity to see them at work, and I will say that one of the things that we have done is we have actually paid people to come in and work with us for a week, because when you see someone actually working, what they say they can do and what they can do completely different.
Josh Patrick (Host)
So can I just stop you here for a second.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Because you hit a really important point which I don't want to gloss over.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Okay
Josh Patrick (Host)
And that is paying the people who you're putting on a test. Too many companies expect potential employees to give them one, two, three, maybe a whole week of time free. Even if you bring somebody in for four hours, you need to pay him for the four hours you bring him in for a day.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I do.
Josh Patrick (Host)
You need to pay him for a day. Number one, it's the law you have to, and number two, it's only the ethical thing to do. And if you don't do it, you're starting off on the wrong foot.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
We even pay interns. We have a wonderful partnership with a university here and we have brought in. Four of my employees have come from programs where they came and they worked with us for three months or six months, whatever their graduation requirement was, but we paid them while they were here and the work we asked them to do was not meaningless tasks, it was. When you think? Can you actually create something? I think, and I know that doesn't always work, because if you're asking someone to come from another job to your job, there's that period of time in there. But there's where, as one example, we hired someone on a Saturday we were actually doing an ESOP meeting and we hired him to come in and work with our crew and it was fascinating because it was immediately obvious that this person had tapped. But I think I've gotten burned a couple of times by people who have shown me work that I later discovered wasn't their work.
They worked on it, but they really didn't do it.
Josh Patrick (Host)
There's something else also Cynthia, which I think is really important is that what you're talking about are technical skills.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Sure
Josh Patrick (Host)
And technical skills for me are just the first screen before
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Oh yeah
Josh Patrick (Host)
I hire somebody. And after that, then I start looking are they willing to do the activities that will make them successful in the job? And, for example, I'm hiring a salesperson and they need a cold call? If they don't have the right personality, they aren't going to do cold calls, no matter how hard. I hit them with the baseball bat.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Sure
Josh Patrick (Host)
And the other thing, which is actually the most important thing is I believe that all companies need to be clear about their values and have clarifying statements around their values for what they mean.
And those last two things, in my experience, are much more indicative of the long-term success of a potential team member than their technical skills, because I can always teach technical.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
You know what I say? I say I can teach someone to punch the buttons, but I can't teach them to think. One way that I get around what you just talked about is when we're looking to hire. I generally don't meet the candidates right away. I have my team sit down with them, the people that they're going to work with and I have them do it, and it's great.
Josh Patrick (Host)
So have you trained your people how to interview effectively?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yes,
Josh Patrick (Host)
See, that's the key.
Too many companies. I see they do exactly what you said, but they don't give the people any training. So what happens is the interview turns out that the potential job holder is actually listening to a monologue about how great that person is.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah
Josh Patrick (Host)
It happens more often than you might think.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I think the other side and this may be an advantage is because of what we do as a communications company. We talk a lot about asking questions, about listening, about hearing the meaning behind the words. So, I think maybe that's a benefit, but I think where some, if someone doesn't know how to do this, one of the things that they could start to do which I have done is when I was doing interviews is bringing them in and then modeling behavior and then afterwards saying, okay, what did you hear? Why did I ask that question? What when I asked that, were you paying attention to the body language of the person? So it's like you constantly have to be teaching.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yeah, there's no question about that. It sounds like you've learned the lessons and you're doing it well.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Well, I hope so, but that doesn't mean that I always get it right, because you can still get fooled.
Josh Patrick (Host)
I tell people, if you have a good hiring system and there's a few out there which I like a lot, we happen to have one that works really well and your hiring success is less than 85% you need to look at your system. 15% of the time, I don't care how good you are, you're going to make hiring errors.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah,
Josh Patrick (Host)
And when you make a hiring error.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
What do you do? You do, you rectify it quickly.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Yes, absolutely. If you find a person's not working, you hold up your hand, say I really apologize, this is my fault, I didn't do the right job screening you, but you're not a good fit here and you know it and I know it and it's probably best for us to separate.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
And when you do that you know it's interesting.
It's. Everybody breathes a sigh of relief because everyone knows when you've got someone in that isn't quite fitting. It's very obvious to everyone.
Josh Patrick (Host)
And then you have the brilliant jerks, which are people you've hired who are unbelievably competent at what they do. They're often salespeople, but they're impossible to get along with and by the time you get around to firing them after you're done, you're going to have a line outside your door with people saying what took you so long?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
I know.
Josh Patrick (Host)
My answer to them always was chin there's something below your nose that goes up and down.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Hahaha. And as much as you quote give people the freedom to come in your door and ask. Why are you doing this? A lot of times, people don't have the confidence to do it.
Josh Patrick (Host)
No, they want to tell you what you want to hear, not what they think.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Yeah.
Josh Patrick (Host)
That's the truth. Unfortunately, Cynthia, we are out of time.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
Well, It was a great conversation.
I enjoyed it. I hope you did.
Josh Patrick (Host)
I did too. I hope our listeners got some great value. I'm sure they did, because there's some nuggets in here. I hope they take a heart. So Cynthia, if somebody wanted to talk to you or find out more about your company, what would they do and how would they do it?
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
There's a couple of ways. Probably the easiest way is to go to CynthiaKayBiz.com and they can just reach out. And I'm really good about answering people or Cynthia@thinkck.com, but love to talk with people and share ideas and hopefully help some people along the way because I know I had a lot of help as well.
Josh Patrick (Host)
Cool, I've got two things I'd like you to do. The first is go to wherever you're listening to this podcast and give us an honest review, if you love us, you can give us five stars.
If you hate us, you can give a one star and i just cry a little bit I promise I'll cry a lot.
Cynthia Kay (Guest)
No.
Josh Patrick (Host)
And the second thing is if you own a business and if you have some great lessons to share like Cynthia does, which I'm by the way. She was very brave to talk about things that went wrong in her business. Many people are not willing to do that. All you have to do is send me an email at jpatrick@stage2solution.com. That's the number two in solution is singular, so it's jpatrick@stage2solution.com. Tell me you're listening to this podcast or watching on YouTube or LinkedIn or Facebook and you also would love to be a guest on this show and we can have a conversation to see if it's right for both of us. So this is Josh Patrick. We're with Cynthia Kay. You're at the 50-50 Accelerator podcast. Thanks a lot for stopping by. I hope to see you back here really soon.
Josh Patrick Outro:
Look, I spent enough mornings thinking and writing about what it takes for business success. Here's an important final thought. The old ways work for a reason, but the best legacy isn't just about what you build. It's about building something that outlasts you without burning you out in the process. If you found value in today's podcast, do me a favor. Take 30 seconds to rate and review the show, and yes, I mean honest reviews. I'd rather have the hard truth than empty praise. Your feedback helps other business owners find these conversations. Hey, I'm Josh Patrick and this has been the 50-50 Accelerator. If you're ready to work less and profit more, make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and remember you've built something incredible. Now let's make sure you're actually around to enjoy it. See you next time.