Ep. 128: From Hunting Criminals to Hunting Elk

Join us as we welcome back the indomitable Mark Horsley to the Silvercore Podcast. In this eye-opening episode, Travis Bader and Mark delve into the gripping world of undercover operations where Mark spent over three decades of his illustrious career. From mastering the art of disguise to pulling off high-stakes operations, Mark shares his unique insights and hair-raising stories from the field. Discover the nuanced tactics of going undercover, the psychological toll it takes, and how Mark used his skills to blend into various roles, sometimes with life-threatening consequences. Whether you're a law enforcement enthusiast or a fan of thrilling real-life stories, this episode will leave you on the edge of your seat.

Mark wraps up this episode with a captivating story of his recent Montana Elk Hunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clNDUoxzSIc

 

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

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All right.

You might remember him from such
podcasts as the Silvercore podcast,

episode six and episode 13.

Welcoming back my friend, Mark Horsley.

Mark, it's really good to have
you back here in the studio.

Mark Horsley: Thank you very
much for the invitation.

Uh, the only thing I have to say is
I've got only about five minutes.

I can hold my gut in since
you've got this on camera.

Now, last time we did
this, it was audio only.

That's right.

So, uh, five minutes and counting.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

You, you emailed me.

You said, okay, I got to brush my tooth.

So it was like, As long as you don't
talk for more than five minutes.

I'll be good.

Okay, good.

We'll switch back and forth.

So in the past, we talked
about a bunch of things.

You talked about, uh, the training
that you've done and you did training

with a large, uh, municipal police
force for a number of years, helped

set up their range program, the
international shooting you've done,

uh, training you've done with the FBI.

Um, one of the things that we didn't
really get to into, which I found

really interesting was the undercover
work and for about 30 of the 35 years.

Of your work, you were working
undercover and that always kind

of stuck in the back of my head.

Like, how does this guy who's clean cut,
who's straight laced, who's, uh, you

come across as extremely direct, how do
you get selected for undercover work?

How does that work?

Mark Horsley: Well, I'd
love to talk about it.

But if I do, I have to kill you.

So, uh, okay.

Um, there's some interesting
stories here for sure.

Um, the, there's two
kind of technical parts.

There's covert work, which is where,
um, Um, you're just hiding the

fact that you're a police officer.

And then there's undercover work
where you're representing yourself

to be anything but a police officer.

So I'm going to kind of cross
between the two of them because

probably most of your listeners
could care less about the difference.

So, uh, so I joined the police
department in 1985, I was.

Interested in, um, undercover work,
did my basic training in the academy,

uh, went out and, uh, was in the
process of learning, uh, patrol work,

uh, you know, entry level, starting
from the bottom, working my way up.

And, uh, I expressed an interest
to, uh, the undercover program and

got laughed out of their office.

Uh, they said, uh, you're too big,
you're too tall, your teeth are too

straight, uh, you don't fit the mold.

And this was my first introduction
to, um, stereotyping and prejudging

and from the police side.

Okay.

So it's a big part of life
that I've always detested.

I detested it in high school, uh,
when there was the, the music group,

the theater group, the jock group.

And I didn't like that.

I like to move between different
social circles, uh, here.

And We're all impacted by this and
a lot of, uh, understanding of this

comes from the undercover experience.

So, what I wanted to establish, uh, with
the selectors was how about you evaluate

results and not, You're prejudging,
and you're what you conceive, uh, a

criminal to be like, uh, because I can
guarantee you if the police officer

doing the selecting for the undercover
program thinks that, uh, every, uh, crook

is a pencil neck, hinged tooth geek,
uh, uh, the, uh, the people Criminal

probably doesn't see themselves that way.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Horsley: Right.

So, um, so we, we kind of work
through that and I'm going to give

you an example right here, right now.

Um, there's a, a, a
uniform to do a Silvercore

Travis Bader: podcast.

Mark Horsley: Okay.

So I re I did my research.

I always do my research.

Uh, I would normally be
wearing a Hawaiian shirt.

Uh, but if one of your listeners was
to sweep by without putting the audio

on, they'd think it was some kind of
a ukulele podcast or something, and

they might not be that interested.

Or if I wore a business suit, they'd think
it was a financial podcast or, you know,

so I looked it up and I wore the, the,
uh, Travis Bader, uh, Silvercore uniform,

the ball cap, which is the universal,
uh, compensation for hair loss, right?

Right.

And a t shirt or, you know,
the hoodie or whatever.

So, uh, you know, so we're,
we're understanding, uh, those

kinds of prejudging and, and,
and we're tapering it to that.

So I asked for an opportunity.

Travis Bader: So you
established a baseline.

You took a look as an outsider
perspective, looking at what it is that

you're entering into, you establish
a baseline as to what kind of the

look and feel would be ball caps.

Yes.

They do stop the reflection of the light
up top, which we have here, which is.

Especially the

Mark Horsley: reflection of the
light off the top of my head.

That's right.

Very little hair left.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, uh, and.

So you, you research first and then you
come in and you try and match that one

Mark Horsley: Well here within limits.

Okay.

Okay.

And this will, this will apply to our
discussion about undercover work a

little bit without trying too hard.

Mm-Hmm.

Okay.

So, uh, the 70-year-old man, uh,
who is a Harley Davidson enthusiast

and has giant Harley Davidson
earrings, he's trying too hard.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Horsley: Um, the 70-year-old
man who uses 50 F-bombs a

minute to try and show how.

In tuning is with the younger generation,
the younger generation is actually

disappointed by that because they're
going, Hey, that guy should be a role

model, you know, and so without trying too
hard, but, uh, going back to the entry.

So when we talk about undercover work,
this is in and out of, uh, undercover

work and covert assignments over a 30
year, uh, period, not always full time,

but sometimes full time and sometimes
bigger, more complex investigations.

Anyway, I asked for an opportunity.

And, um, I got an opportunity
and I performed really well

and, uh, things went well.

So here I was there, uh, you know,
expanding their view of what an

undercover operator could look like.

Um, and one of the early successes
I had, uh, was, uh, buying heroin.

Um, uh, in the Columbia
Hotel in downtown Vancouver.

And at that time, the heroin
users were a very small knit group

of people who knew each other.

I was assigned to go in
and buy caps of heroin.

It was, uh, um, uh, packaged
in gel caps at that time.

And this was an entry level point
to an investigation where we would

uh, climb up in amounts and climb up
in players, uh, within the, uh, the

group, uh, distributing the heroin.

Uh, I walked in, uh, to the Columbia Hotel
and one of the important things, uh, is

to feel comfortable in your environment.

Well, you have to be
extremely, uh, comfortable.

Confident, have an extremely high self
esteem and an extremely low ego, which

is the negative side of self esteem.

That's what you have to be.

So I have to walk into a place
like that and feel comfortable.

Um, Um, and I walked in the door, this
guy waved to me, I walked over and,

uh, you know, scored the gel caps at
heroin and boom, I was a rock star, uh,

in the eyes of the undercover program.

And it was strictly a
case of mistaken identity.

He thought I was someone else.

Well, why am I capitalizing?

Job done.

Why not capitalize on that?

So it went from there, uh, to a lot
of different, uh, assignments in a

lot of different investigative areas,
uh, stolen property, uh, it went, uh,

you know, certainly drug work, lots
of drug work, uh, but also, uh, major

assaults, homicides, uh, you know,
different type of investigations.

And, uh, during my career, I was
assigned full time to covert.

teams, uh, drug unit twice, uh, uh,
once in the 80s, uh, once again in,

in the early 2000s, uh, and also,
uh, gang crime, which was a three and

a half year, uh, covert assignment.

Also, one of my most fun assignments
were, uh, property, uh, assignments,

one in which I was tasked with,
uh, doing, uh, Commercial break and

enters for a three month period.

And, um, it was, uh, an
interesting assignment, uh, where

I learned a tremendous amount.

Uh, uh, I can go into that a
little bit if you're interested.

So, so

Travis Bader: what do you mean
you were tasked with doing

commercial break and enters?

Yes.

Okay.

Well, that's kind of interesting.

Yes.

It was a, it was a

Mark Horsley: lot

Travis Bader: of fun.

So, and they

Mark Horsley: paid me to do that.

Travis Bader: So you got to, um, I
try and find it's essentially like,

I think they call it like a red team
analysis of a, um, uh, of a place.

You're the movie sneakers would
probably be an example of that.

If you remember that one with, uh,
uh, I think it was river Phoenix

and, uh, Robert Redford and, and the.

Dan Aykroyd, I think was in there anyways.

They, they, they go and they break into
banks and places and they turn around

and find all the weak spots at the bank.

Yeah.

So that kind of exactly

Mark Horsley: what I did.

Yeah, but I didn't get a movie out
of it, but other than that, so yeah,

what it was is, In a particular
area, there was a real, uh, increase

in commercial break and enters.

Uh, there was a theory that they
were lock pick break and enters.

And, um, my task, uh, was to
reduce the break and enters

by entering these premises.

And leaving a note on desk saying,
uh, we breached your security, got

to here at such and such a time.

Could you please call our crime
prevention office, uh, and, uh, and get

some, uh, target hardening, uh, tips.

So that, that's basically what it was.

And it was what we found out.

So the rules were that I
couldn't break anything.

So no broken glass, no broken locks, uh,
but I could, uh, if I could defeat a lock,

I could do it and I'm not talking at the
lock pick level, but if I could defeat

a lock, I could do that, but it was to
gain entry in any other way possible.

And, uh, so a lot of it was unlocked
doors, uh, uh, but then it was, uh, doing

things like, uh, somebody's exiting and
you look like you belong and I hold the

door for you, I forgot my keys, I got to
leave a message on your boss's desk, could

you open the door for me, the janitors,
uh, but one of the really interesting

things I learned from this is is that when
people look at things, they will see what

they expect to see, but they won't see
what they don't expect to see at times.

So I was in a, in a mall that was locked
and secured and there was a security

guard there and I just stood still.

He looked directly at
me and didn't see me.

I sat on one of the chairs
in the, uh, in the mall.

And he didn't expect to
see anybody sitting there.

I didn't look like I didn't belong
there and he didn't even see me.

So there was a lot of really,
it's, it's, it's telling, uh, uh,

we, uh, we bought a house one time
that had a major structural defect.

And we brought in the
engineer for the inspection.

And when he pointed it out to me, I
go, I can't believe I didn't see that.

But it's one of the really
interesting things about people.

They will see what they expect to see.

And if it's not within their realm
of expectation, they won't see it.

And we got to watch for that in ourselves.

Right.

Travis Bader: So you exploit
that as an undercover operator?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what do they call it?

Human hacking or basically looking
at the, the human variable tends to

be the, the The weakest point of any
security system, because you can have

the sharks with laser beams on their
head and a moat, but if you're able to

give the, uh, the drawbridge guy a nod
to lower that drawbridge, you're in.

Mark Horsley: Yeah, it
was, it was interesting.

Um, uh, It went a little
farther than that.

And I ended up getting myself into
a pile of trouble with this one.

Um, I'm a results guy and I, I look at
how can I achieve a result, you know,

whether, um, you know, I'm trying to
shoot a perfect target in marksmanship,

uh, sports, uh, you know, in, in target
sports, or in this case, I was trying to

lower the commercial break and enters.

And, uh, so.

It seemed very logical to me, uh,
to figure out who was doing them and

then take away opportunity from them.

And so I had kind of a liberal, uh,
interpretation of Breach of the Peace.

And I was removing them from the
area where they were doing their

commercial B& Es prior to the B& Es.

I thought it was good.

And, and, you know, Horsby, you're
a rock star, way to go until they

found out I was kind of violating
their rights a little bit.

So there's a sex.

There's a section in the, in that
particular police department's procedure

manual that's attributed to me as
far as the, the use of breach of the

peace and the interpretation of it.

I thought really because there has
to be a violent, uh, you know, sort

of aspect to that, uh, use of that.

Uh, law, I thought, well, sooner or
later, someone's going to get pissed

off with these guys and punch them out.

And, uh, but that was
maybe too big a stretch.

Yeah.

The presupposition of violence.

Yeah.

But I did get a 70 percent
reduction in commercial B and E.

So, but, so what went from a potential
commendation went to discipline.

So, but I learned, you know,
you learn from experiences and

Travis Bader: I was young.

You know, if you're not pushing your
boundaries and making those mistakes

and you're really not learning.

I mean, I, that's what I tell
everyone I work with, I don't

care if you make mistakes, right.

We just hopefully don't make the
same ones over and over again.

If you're pushing yourself and it happens,
that means, it means you're trying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that would be a lot of fun.

That'd be like a giant puzzle box.

Like how do I, there's so many
different ways that you can attack it.

Okay.

Let's see, banks, banks
getting broken into.

We can take a look at alarm
systems, locks and cameras.

We can take a look at the people on
it, what they look like on the job.

Okay.

You can start befriending
people outside of work.

And then,

Mark Horsley: um.

Well, here's, here's one of the things,
cause I know you're probably going to

ask me a few things about, uh, fitting
in with appearance and undercover.

So in that job, uh, actually being
completely non threatening, uh, having

a clean cut, experience, uh, you know,
appearance, uh, made quite a difference.

So, you know, um, uh, how many times do
you Do people hold the door open for a

pretty woman or a guy in a business suit
or a guy that's just sort of dressed, uh,

upper casual and, and he looks clean cut.

And uh, so, you know, you, you,
you got to fit, uh, what's the most

effective appearance for the assignment.

Right.

Travis Bader: So to some degree,
I guess you'd have to be a little

bit of a chameleon cause you want
to be able to, uh, match your body

language, match your attire, match
their, uh, speech patterns, cadence

in ways where it's not super obvious.

And so they're not just, you're
just mimicking me, right.

But like you're saying before,
you don't want to go overboard.

Like what, what percentage of self do
you retain when you're going undercover?

Mark Horsley: Yeah, I've got to
be really careful here because

I, I, uh, respectfully, I've got
to make sure that I'm not, uh,

betraying my, um, trade secrets.

Fair enough.

Uh, but, I mean, uh, it comes down
to how comfortable do you feel and

why would you not feel comfortable?

In a certain environment, that's where
I talk about massive self esteem, uh,

and very little ego or excellent ego
control, um, where, you know, that,

that kind of comes into it, but when
you look at it, um, I mean, the one

thing I can say is, as a, as a Canadian,
Where do I not have a right to be?

Like, um, uh, uh, for example, if the
investigation takes us into a gay club,

regardless of my sexual preferences,
I have the right to be in there.

It's a, a public place.

place.

So why would I feel
uncomfortable in there?

So that that's what a lot of it has to
do with because I mean, I got a comment

on fictional works because they just
drive me nuts and so disappointing.

They so misrepresent Uh, uh, covert
work, undercover work, all police work.

And, and maybe it doesn't matter,
uh, to people watching it for

entertainment, but it's brutal.

Like I can't even watch it because,
you know, this, when they're deep

undercover, they walk in the bar
and the first thing they do is, you

know, look everywhere like this.

When you walk into a
bar, you look for what?

If a seat, how it works, do
you go up to the counter for

a beer or is there a server?

I mean, those are the things you do.

So why would you do anything different?

Yeah.

If you're entering a bar
and then why would you feel

uncomfortable about being in there?

Right.

So

Travis Bader: is there any fictional work
out there that you think kind of gets it?

Uh,

Mark Horsley: Lawrence Fishburne
did one movie called Deep Cover.

I thought that was pretty close.

I mean, there was some artistic
license, but it was pretty close.

Uh, but a lot of them, like
one of the worst ones, uh, is

it, and I can't even watch it.

I've watched a few of them
is a TV show called FBI.

I mean, I have great
respect for that agency.

I've trained with them.

Uh, I, I took courses with them.

I, I trained at Quantico Virginia
and, uh, they're professional.

They're highly disciplined and
it's the, just the lack of it.

Like it's just everything that
they're not is portrayed in that show.

So I, I just, I struggle with it.

Right.

And then.

There's this thing that I'm so opposed
to, is the best stories in policing

don't all involve murder and violence.

They don't.

So, it's, it's the entertainment
industry's obsession with,

with, With murder and violence.

Like, I just want to see a show that
doesn't have murder and violence

and murder can be part of a, uh,
of a story, but it doesn't have

to be like it's, it's gratuitous.

And even books, try and find a good
book written recently that isn't about

murder and violence and some weirdo
perversion, you know, cause some of the

best stories don't involve any of that.

Travis Bader: I mean, they're just
going off a template since the

very first book was ever printed.

Right.

It's a, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, Humans seem to be negatively biased.

They're looking for things that are
going to be inflammatory or dangerous.

And maybe that's the fastest way
to hack a person's attention.

Mark Horsley: Yeah.

I don't know.

It's a, I mean, I've there,
I've aired my pet peeve.

I'm done.

Travis Bader: Well, you say about
ego, uh, minimal ego or ego control.

Um, so having a healthy ego is
important for, in some respects,

having an out of control ego
is completely, um, problematic.

Um, I've never known you to have an ego.

Do you practice ego control or is it just
something that you've, uh, been able to,

Mark Horsley: I took a, I took a course
years and years ago, and, um, the, the

instructor said it to me the perfect
way, uh, that self esteem is positive.

You need to have great self esteem
to succeed in life because you A

lot of life tries to crush you.

And, uh, as parents, we try to build
our children's self esteem, uh, because

a lot of the world's going to crush
them, but ego, as he described, it

was the negative side of self esteem.

So consider self esteem, uh, what
you want and ego, the negative side.

So yes, it has to be controlled.

And, and it's very, very common
for undercover operators Get out

of control egos because they get
built up by their teams, by their

handlers, and it goes to their head.

And pretty soon they can't
fit their ball cap on, they

can't get through the doorway.

And it was really well described by
one operator to me where he got to the

Dressed down by his boss about this.

And he said, I needed that.

And, uh, because you have to have this
confidence to go into very tenuous

situations, but it can't be ego based.

Uh, like I can't believe that, you
know, there's a number of factors that

will play into whether I'm going to be
successful in the objective or not, right.

And it can't just be ego based.

Um, uh, so I, I don't know if I'm
explaining it properly, but, um,

uh, Anything that tries to stomp on
another person, that's going to be ego.

Anything that tries to bring
the best out of yourself,

that's going to be self esteem.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

So like that old adage, you can
have the tallest tower in the city

by building the tallest tower or
by tearing everyone else's down.

I think

Mark Horsley: that's a good analogy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if you feel threatened by
others who are good at what they do.

That's an indication of leading
to what you're talking about

because you'd rather destroy their
success than build yourself better.

Why not?

Why not learn from them?

Why not become better from them?

Travis Bader: A hundred percent.

Yeah.

So, um, when you're looking at different
people, you're establishing a baseline,

what are some of the things that you use?

To profile, let's say in day to day
life, whether policing, if you can talk

about it without giving away tradecraft,
day to day life, how you'd, uh, apply

what you've learned and what do you do
so that others are reading the profile

that you want to have them read on you?

Mark Horsley: Right.

Okay.

Um, so you try to, uh, uh,
think about I want to separate

professional from personal.

Um, uh, I mean, professionally, if,
if you're working undercover or a

covert capacity, you want to fit in
without standing out, you want to be

unmemorable, um, and non threatening.

And, uh, and then if you take that to
the personal side, my, my wife says

that I, um, uh, don't look friendly.

And, uh, I have a kind of a reptilian
forehead and I'm losing my hair.

And , I, I shouldn't
say I'm losing my hair.

I lost my hair . Okay.

And, uh, battle's over.

So, so she says, uh, you
should have a friendly haircut.

And I go, well, how do I get a, like,
I'm going to have to comb over from

mid back to get a friendly haircut.

So, so, you know, uh, but I, I know that
that's the appearance that I have and I

can see the reaction sometimes in people.

So I work really hard to be outgoing and
friendly and, and put people at ease.

And, uh, so that's how I would apply
it in, uh, in your personal life to

be sort of, sort of aware of what you
look like, how you come across and,

uh, um, you know, I, I've got a really
good friend, um, he, if he was, um,

uh, an actor, they would cast him as
an axe murderer cause he's just like

a frightening looking dude, right?

And, uh, so he's the same thing.

He has to work hard at that to put
people at ease and be non threatening.

And then.

One of the challenges, uh, in different
undercover roles is that, um, sometimes

you have to take on this different
persona and you have to satisfy sort

of, uh, requirements of your appearance
that you can't change on your days

off and, and looking like a French
Canadian bank robber on your days

off becomes real tired real quick.

And uh, uh, so there were definitely a lot
of challenges with that and it's not like

every undercover assignment involved that.

But I certainly experienced that.

Travis Bader: How do you look like
a French Canadian bank robber?

You a little thin mustache and
black and white striped shirt.

And

Mark Horsley: well, it's what you think
a French Canadian bank robber looks like.

But, uh, so there were times in my
career where I, uh, played long term

undercover operations, uh, with a certain
appearance, um, that really conflicted

with, uh, family life, uh, um, for sure.

That was challenging.

Travis Bader: Do you have.

You strike me as a type of person who
has a high level of compartmentalization

and can compartmentalize different
things into different areas

without having a bleed over.

Did you find that, is that true?

Am I, am I correct in that
assumption or was there challenges

in that, uh, in that bleed over?

Mark Horsley: Um, yeah.

So, my, my wife and I married really young
and, uh, we've been married over 40 years.

Um, and, uh, we grew up
together in a certain sense.

She's a registered nurse and, uh, pretty
soon we had to come to an agreement on

what was and what wasn't dinner, uh,
table conversation, uh, conversation.

Cause nurses, like they can
gross out a policeman easily,

easily, and, and vice versa.

So there was some over enthusiasm early
in my policing career and probably early

in her nursing career, uh, for sure.

But then it became very balanced.

So later on, uh, we came down to,
um, we had a rule, five minute rule.

You're allowed to talk
about work for five minutes.

So think about.

You have to think about it a little
bit, you have to be really concise,

and you only have five minutes.

And the theory behind that is, um, it's
my burden in providing for our family,

and we were a dual career couple, uh,
and it's not her burden, and vice versa.

So, you can summarize in, in five minutes.

And that, that's what we came to.

So, yeah, there was a huge difference.

Separation between my work life
and my family life and where it was

challenging was where my appearance
was such that, uh, you know, I

couldn't change it on my days off that.

So that was, that was a little bit
difficult, but there's a really, really

important thing in training undercover
operators because initially we were

self trained, uh, Uh, there was a, a
federal agency course that some people

took, uh, but it was just basically
trial by fire, figure it out on your

own, get a little coaching and guidance.

Now it's very formal, but, uh,
people are tested by psychologists.

But there's one really, really important
thing that has always been in place.

As soon as you start using undercover
techniques in your personal life, you have

to be removed from the undercover program.

You can't do it.

Travis Bader: And that's going
to, do you have a buddy system for

people or is that all self reporting?

Mark Horsley: No, it's
a supervisory system.

So as soon as that's detected or
reported and, and looked into, a person

needs to be suspended until that's
resolved, uh, because the person is

more important than the operation.

And, and, uh, you know, I have lots
and lots of examples, uh, where

people, uh, forgot who they were.

Uh, in, in one case, uh, uh, an
undercover operator, uh, met a woman

while he was, uh, in a long term under,
uh, undercover operation, uh, at a,

as a high level drug trafficker with a
fancy, uh, apartment, uh, fancy cars, uh,

jewelry, money, all that kind of stuff.

So she fell in love with a drug dealer.

Drug

Travis Bader: trafficker,

Mark Horsley: they, she knew eventually
that he wasn't and was a police

officer, but you can imagine how
disastrous that clash of values was

when she found out that he was a police
officer on a police officer's salary.

Right?

Sure.

And, um.

And there was another case where
an undercover operator used their

undercover ID to, uh, access, uh, um,
a hotel for an extramarital affair.

And, uh, you know, those are,
so, uh, eventually I became

a supervisor of these people.

programs and these people, and these
were things that we would watch for.

So in my own life, yes, I was
absolutely, um, uh, compartmentalizing,

uh, the authorized legal technique
of deception for police work, but

never exercised in my personal life.

So they're absolutely, you have to,
you're playing a role and you have

to be able to, to separate that.

Uh, uh, for example, um, I try not
to use words that would embarrass

my mom, God rest her soul, right?

Like, uh, in my personal life,
but I, I've been known to use

bad words in other situations.

Uh, roles that I'm in, you know, and I'm
no saint, but I, I try, you know, right.

So

Travis Bader: is it like a switch you can
flip in your head when you're going or

Mark Horsley: you're playing a part,
then you're not playing a part.

And, uh, there's always a
transition from work to home.

There is, uh, especially when you're
in, uh, involved in high adrenaline,

um, experiences, there is a, you know,
A, um, uh, a period post adrenaline

period, but there, there has to be that
separation that turn it on, turn it off.

There ha absolutely has to be that.

Travis Bader: I mean, you're not going
in and doing undercover work at people

when they're at the best points in
their life, living their best life.

You're, you tend to go in and find
people in some of the worst areas of

society and worst times in their life.

You, you'll see the worst in
people essentially for 35 years.

Uh, is there, you know, they talk
about that thin blue line, right?

And you're, you're walking that line
between being lawful and protecting

others, and you're right there on that
edge, having to interact with all those

who are on the other side of that.

Does that get difficult?

I mean, I would think for an undercover
operator, that would be that thin

blue guy gets really, really thin.

Mark Horsley: Um, I, I didn't find
it so, uh, I mean, there is a rule

book, right, that we have to follow
that they don't have to follow.

And you know, I, I already
discussed my first crossing the

line, um, which was a good lesson.

Yeah.

But there is a rule book and, uh,
uh, but there's an awful lot you

can do to, to catch the bad guy.

And, and you do see the ugliest
side of humanity, um, actually

on both sides of the line.

And, uh, uh, so it, it, it's, uh,
you know, like 35 years of policing

helped me really understand people,
but to keep it in perspective.

I had to remember that, uh, I was
constantly looking at the worst

few of them, and that that wasn't
representative of all people.

Uh, I did a lot of motorcycle travel
with, uh, my brother John, and one of

the greatest things of that, because
it was during a lot of, uh, period

where I was working covert assignments
and undercover work, was, um, I We,

we would travel everywhere, uh, and
meet all these wonderful people.

And it was just a reminder that most
people in the world are really good, but

yes, we're using deception, um, and not
representing who we actually are as an

investigative technique with an end goal.

That's what it was.

So no, I, I didn't find
a big struggle with it.

I didn't, I didn't lose track
of who I was, um, uh, ever.

I played a role and, uh, uh, mind you,
um, others did, but it was something

that we, we really had to watch for.

So, no, I, I, uh, you got to be
really, really careful, um, that

you're, you're using the techniques.

In the appropriate area.

It's very much like, um, I was a very
skilled interviewer, uh, interrogator,

uh, you don't use those skills on
other police officers, you don't use

them on your friends, you sure as shit
don't use, excuse my French, you sure

as Lee, don't use those on your wife.

You knew it, you knew it was coming.

Oh yes.

You know, it

Travis Bader: was coming.

No, no, that's a, that's
a recipe for disaster.

No, if you care about your wife and
you'd want a long term relationship,

leave that at home or leave that at work.

Mark Horsley: Yeah.

There's a time and a place, right?

Yeah.

So,

Travis Bader: um, you know.

You can't be the only person
whose results oriented.

I mean, a type personality is a
lot of them on the police force and

getting into, uh, undercover work.

Is it a difficult thing to balance when
you know, someone is a criminal and

they know you've done unlawful things?

Is that ever.

Maybe not for you, but have you
noticed that in others where that

ambition gets ahead of people
to, uh, and see the end result?

Mark Horsley: That's, uh, that's
the, um, uh, the imbalance, uh,

between self esteem and ego.

Yes, I'm sure I've seen that.

And it's, um, uh, you know, it's
something that it's dangerous.

I mean, you got to remember policing
is imperfect people serving people.

people.

But, held to the highest
standard of anyone in society.

And as it should be.

Um, I mean arguably, uh, politicians
should be held to a much higher standard.

Arguably, uh, A prime minister, for
example, should probably go through a

background check that a police constable
would go to, go through, arguably.

But I have no beef with us being held to
that standard, but, uh, it is imperfect

people serving imperfect people.

So sure, there, there's, there,
there's temptation, there's,

there's challenges for sure.

Uh, but, but the, the, the, the amount
of latitude you have in undercover

work is really, really broad.

Like you're representing, uh, yourself
to be anything but a police officer.

And so that, uh, uh, allows for
crimes to take place or to learn

about them or get, gather evidence.

Uh, and there is also, um, Uh,
exceptional and, and, uh, you know,

unintended things that come out and you
learn, have you watched the, the, uh,

the video, uh, Operation Wheelchair?

That was, that was my 2015, uh, undercover
assignment, uh, in the downtown Eastside.

And it's the most, uh, attention
I ever got for the biggest failure

of an investigation, right?

Cause I was unsuccessful in getting
assaulted or robbed in that investigation.

Right.

Why don't

Travis Bader: you tell the
listeners about that one?

I'll put a link to it as well,
if they want to watch it.

Mark Horsley: Really, really quickly.

We had a whole bunch of, um, uh,
crimes against people who were

handicapped, uh, in wheelchair.

They were robberies and assaults.

Uh, but there was no pattern, there
was different times a day, different

days a week, all this kind of thing.

So, uh, I, uh, uh, went undercover and
it, it, it sounds simpler than it was.

First of all, I went to GF Strong and
I spoke to a peer counselor, uh, named

Walt, uh, who, he was a full time
counselor for people who were new, newly

paralyzed, and Walt's a quadriplegic.

And I had to understand what it was like
from him to be a person in a wheelchair.

I had to learn how to drive a power
wheelchair, which was frightening.

And then, um, you know,
how I would play this role.

So I think I did a good
job playing the role.

But the unintended, uh,
result here was no crimes.

Uh, but all this kindness that I was
shown by people in the downtown East side.

And it was phenomenal.

So remember, I was like
2015, I was a 30 year cop.

And, uh, I, Uh, you never think you've
seen it all, but you think you've seen

enough that nothing would surprise you.

Well, I was surprised.

And, uh, so, and it was,
I mean, watch the video.

I don't want to get too into it, but the
bottom line is, is that the people were

very compassionate and they looked out
for me and there was a real community

down there, uh, when people drive through
and they're horrified by what they see.

I understand that.

But what I think a lot of people don't
understand is that we, as a society, have

an obligation to protect those people that
are down there, and they're not all bad.

Circumstances, in many
cases, took them there.

There's an awful lot of, for example,
people who are addicted to painkillers who

came out of, uh, you know, industry, like,
uh, construction, logging, and so forth.

And, uh, Uh, I think we have to
remember, uh, they're human beings

and they have wonderful traits.

They're imperfect, but so are we, right.

You know?

So I don't want to get like,
it's a three minute video.

Yeah.

Spend the time.

Travis Bader: Yeah, it's a good video.

I enjoy that one.

And when you say a massive failure,
it's probably like you, Most successful

failure that they, you have out there.

Well, I thought,

Mark Horsley: I thought about it and I
thought, gee, was I ever successful in

getting robbed or mugged in my undercover?

And I was, and I've got a couple
where I was, um, but not that time.

And I really, really wanted it.

And I really wanted it because, uh,
you know, I mean, it, it, it was a

certain amount of danger involved
that there was one point in the

video where I was sure the guy was
going to rob me and no, no, no, no.

What's that

Travis Bader: got to feel like, all
hungered up waiting to get robbed,

maybe hurt, maybe stabbed, maybe.

Mark Horsley: Okay.

So I'm in that circumstances for
a number of hours over a number

of weeks versus someone who lives
that every day, uh, I can do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I don't think I, I
telegraphed my anxiousness.

I think I was ready to take the hits.

I was ready to take the hits.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: I'm just thinking about the,
uh, things that you can talk about and

things that you can't talk about without
putting you into a bit of an awkward spot.

When you're doing interview and
interrogation, when you're talking

with individuals, uh, I remember
years ago, I did a few courses

on interview and interrogation.

The read courses, one of them did their
basic and their advanced course with VPD.

And, um, you know, there's a lot of,
uh, theme development and there's a.

Uh, it's very different than what people
show in, in the TV shows where they're

hitting them with a book in there.

You did it.

Didn't you?

It's a very, very different, uh, process.

And a lot of it's trying to be
compassionate to the person that you

are interviewing and trying to, uh,
uh, maybe minimize some of the things

that they've been doing so that you can
elicit a proper, um, a legal confession.

Um, Did you ever find yourself when
doing cover work or doing interviewing

and interrogation where you're just with
absolutely repulsive people that, you

know, are absolutely repulsive people, but
you have to sit there and play the game.

And, and how, if so,
how'd you deal with that?

Mark Horsley: Yes, is the answer.

I think you want more than that.

Uh, yes, I've been with, uh,
reprehensible, repulsive people and,

uh, you know, uh, not telegraphing
how I felt was, uh, critical.

Um, uh, yes, it's a, it's a very, uh,
challenging and difficult thing to do.

Um, one of the things that, um, Comes
to mind, and it's not exactly where

you want it to go, I don't think, is
the whole issue with false confession.

And, uh, I ran into that quite a few
times, and this is where that imbalance

between self esteem and ego happens
again, because the, um, the investigator

wants the confession, they get the
confession and they go, yeah, I got

the confession, but hang on a second.

You've just put a person in a
room who's never done anything

noteworthy in their entire life.

Um, they have no attention because
of achievement in their entire life.

And then they're going to take
credit for something that there's

going to be consequences for, but
for a brief period of time, they

feel like they're a somebody.

And you got to so watch for that.

And that's where, you know, that, um,
uh, self esteem has to dominate the ego.

And, and make sure that you recognize that
and, and, uh, look at it very carefully.

There's, with, um, uh, DNA evidence,
uh, we get, uh, people who have, uh,

been imprisoned for things that they
didn't do, but in many cases, their

conviction was based on a confession.

And, uh, so, you know, there,
now we have more tools.

I say we, I'm a retired policeman,
but we have more, more tools

to verify, uh, uh, stories.

But, yes, um, uh, the ability to, uh,
not, uh, Show how, how you truly feel

about someone is, is very important.

Um, some of those skills are built
from 40 years of marriage, where

you are really good at pretending
you care about something that maybe

you don't, but like which color.

Do you like this color?

That looks exactly like that color.

Oh, whichever one you love, dear.

You're real good at
reading the person, right?

Yeah.

It's not in the course,
but perhaps it should be.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Okay.

Is there anything that you had
takeaways from that line of work

that you think would be applicable
to people in their everyday life?

Like, certainly I think from a public
safety standpoint for an individual,

establishing a baseline and not acting
outside of that would be just a, a

basic personal safety, uh, aspect.

Mark Horsley: I think there's an awful
lot of people that go through life,

nothing to do with policing who are
playing a part, like, That's not them,

and they're, they're being somebody
that's not, you know, they're betraying

their core values, uh, they're, they're,
they're not listening to their moral

compass, and it's like they're, they're
playing a part in, in a bad movie that

they feel they're assigned, so I don't
think that applies necessarily just to

policing, but it, it applies to many other
aspects of life, like, um, uh, and then

the whole bit about, uh, Uh, you know, a
lot of people feel that something didn't

happen if nobody knows that it happened.

Travis Bader: But

Mark Horsley: if, if you're answering
to yourself and you know, it happened,

uh, you know, then it happened.

That's it.

So, but, but watch people.

I mean, you know, uh, they betray
themselves in their own life because

they're not following who they really are.

They're playing a part.

You know, a bad part in a bad movie
in their, in their lives, right?

So I, I don't think that's, I
mean, it's, it's human nature.

It's part of understanding, uh, uh,
humanity, the imperfection in people.

Uh, but I think it's really
important to understand.

Travis Bader: Did you take the time
to create a, um, A checklist of

your value system and everything.

So you knew that you're, or is it
just square to where you got it?

You know where it's at.

Mark Horsley: No, I, I think
I review that regularly.

And then, and then, um, you know,
uh, the same thing in a, in a, in

a marriage long term partnership of
like, what's the most important thing.

You know, list of priorities,
that, that kind of thing.

And it always has to do with that, but,
but it was always very, I mean, it's

clear to me, um, the more complicated
people make decisions, the less likely

they are to follow a path, right?

So the, the simpler and clearer
it is, uh, the easier it is.

I mean, I gotta, I gotta, I don't know
if you have time, you'll probably edit

this out cause it's a bit racy, but,
um, I taught a course down the end.

Uh, location in the United States, and,
uh, um, there was a student on the course

who was having, uh, difficulty with her
gun, and, um, I assisted her with that,

colleague to colleague, uh, got it fixed,
and, um, Uh, she was very appreciative,

uh, and would come and sit with me.

It was a week long course.

At lunchtime, I introduced her to other
instructors, my friends, and you know,

I'm just a kind of friendly, outgoing guy.

Well, the Friday comes around, she
shows up at my door, and, um, she had,

uh, a bottle of wine and two glasses.

And I, and I said, Oh yeah, come on in.

We're just cleaning guns.

Uh, I don't drink wine, but, uh, my buddy
Dale will have a glass of your wine.

Right.

He, she didn't know he was in there.

And so she, you know, she says, well,
you know, um, uh, I'm going to back

up just a little bit cause I missed a
really important part, this, you can tell

this isn't rehearsed cause I missed it.

The Thursday was a banquet and she
said to me, uh, that, uh, there's

limited parking at this banquet.

So we should probably drive together.

I said, Hey guys, there's
limited parking at this banquet.

I had a minivan rented and I, I cleared
everything out, put the seats up,

you know, all my equipment out of it.

And like nine of us
pack into this minivan.

We get to the.

Place for the banquet and it looks like
an empty Costco parking lot, but I didn't

think anything of it So then the next
day she shows up with a glass wine.

Well, she says we should go out
to dinner So it's a good idea.

Hey, I'll call some of
my buddies and Dale.

Hey Dale, you want to go?

You know, so we go there's like 12
of us out for dinner And then, uh,

I get back and I've taught all week.

I've been up for a run every
morning, um, uh, uh, you know, try

to maintain my fitness schedule.

And, um, I'm, I'm heading to bed.

I am bagged.

She knocks on the door.

Yeah.

And, uh, I forgot my, my phone.

Wine glasses.

Oh, come on in, grab them and I'm
like hoping she'll grab them and

leave, but I'm being polite and I
go, uh, she's I hope she doesn't.

You know, I don't want to draw attention
to the fact that a couple of her buttons

are undone, you know, and embarrass her.

So I'm I'm I'm politely
averting my eyes and then.

She, she leans over and, and I, I, I'm
thinking to myself, her back must be sore.

You know, she's kind of leaning
over and, and then she gets on

the bed and I thought, well, she,
I guess she's kind of stretching.

No, I didn't clue in at all.

Right.

I I've been married, I've
been married forever.

I didn't clue in at all.

And, and then finally it was like this
light bulb went on and I, I thought, oh

my God, I knew she was, she was married.

She was from a, uh, another agency and
all this kind of, but the funniest part

was when I suddenly realized, because
I'm not, I don't fix someone's gun

because I want to get them into bed.

I don't, I'm not polite to a person.

And you don't not looking for.

Yeah.

Don't see what you're not looking for.

Anyway.

Okay.

My wife flew in to, uh, uh, the,
the, the next day, and the first

thing I did is tell her this story,
and she laughed and laughed, and

she says, you're so oblivious.

I said, well, you know, I'm not
looking for it, but yeah, so my,

I guess my point in a long winded
way is, my life is very simple.

Because I have this
code and I am who I am.

And I don't, I don't spend there all
that time with the devil on this shoulder

and the angel on this shoulder, you
know, trying to talk me into things.

It's life is very straightforward.

My priorities are straightforward.

I

Travis Bader: found
that, and I do it myself.

I'll sit down and I'll create goal
lists, you know, personally within, for

the family, for work and, and then when
things come up, you I'll take a look.

Where does it fall on this list?

Is it on this side of this side?

Is it a yes or is it no?

And it makes, it makes
my decisions really easy.

And every once in a while, something
might come up like a business

opportunity that sounds really good.

And it's like, okay, do I
have to reevaluate my list?

And I can take a look.

Um, Nope, sorry.

I'm going to turn it down.

Cause it's going to take my eyes off
of what I'm trying to get at over here.

Um, but I will, I will do a
sort of an iterative approach to

looking at where the, um, uh, the
direction like for the businesses.

But the North star never changes.

It's always the same.

So if it doesn't lead me to the
North star, the decision is simple.

I just don't do it.

Mark Horsley: I think, uh, uh, people do
two things that like, I mean, I supporting

a hundred percent what you're saying,
but they do two things that, uh, they

spend a whole bunch of time worrying
about things that haven't happened.

And that just clutters their whole mind.

And then the flip side of that
is they don't have a direction.

And if you don't, you know, if you
don't have a goal, how do you know

that you're going to, you know,
how do you achieve getting there?

It's like, it's like you don't
have a map, but you're hoping

to get somewhere, you know?

And, uh, so it's very straightforward.

And I'm not saying that life doesn't
present difficult decisions, but

most, most of them are not that
difficult if you know who you are.

And, and if you're in a relationship
where your goals are, are written

down and they're set and, uh, you
know, like, I mean, one, one really

important one is, is finances.

Like, uh, you know, if you look at it, is
that, is this consistent with my goals?

Is this within my
discretionary range or not?

Right?

So, yeah, it's, life is more
simple than most people make it.

And then most of the things that cause
the biggest disruption are things

that people regret later, most often.

And I, and I take this from, Like in
my, in my policing career, uh, you know,

24 years as a supervisor manager, uh,
I learned a lot of things about people.

And a lot of the time I felt like I was
an anthropologist looking at a completely

different species because really smart
people sometimes do really stupid things.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: You

Mark Horsley: know.

And they could have been avoided
and their life would have been

a lot better without that.

And it doesn't mean, you know, being
afraid to confront things that need to be

confronted to standing up to things you
believe that has nothing to do with it.

It just has to do with, you know, making
decisions that are consistent with

your values, with your moral compass.

That's, that's why they
call it a moral compass.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, that's why it's called that.

It's pretty descriptive.

Travis Bader: That's right.

It's not like, uh, you Who
was a politician talking

about situational ethics?

Mark Horsley: And he says, Oh,

Travis Bader: you know, you just,
uh, depending on what the situation

is, and then you can see what
ethics that I'm going to have.

No, no, you have your ethics and
you apply it to the situation.

It doesn't work that way.

Come on.

Yeah.

So, you know, uh, three and a half
work, three and a half years, you're

working a drug case as looking
through some of the stuff here.

I think you're probably, uh, in
a biker role at that, that point.

Mark Horsley: Uh, yes, there was a couple
of assignments where I, I played a long

term assignments where I played a biker,
um, necessary for the investigation.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

So on shift, off shift, you're going
to have to look like a biker, just like

the French, French bank robber, right?

Or the, Cool Quad Bank, Robert.

Mark Horsley: Yeah.

Uh, yeah, that was
difficult at times for sure.

And, and there, I, I certainly, uh,
appreciated assignments that didn't

require, uh, being that extreme.

And I, and I gotta say that during
these timeframes, that was more

important than it is right now.

Like, I like the fact that, uh, as a
society, we're not as judgmental about

a nose ring, multiple piercings, a
beard, uh, you know, we don't have as.

Uh, like there was a long period of
time, especially difficult for women

where only a certain body type was,
uh, considered to be fit and healthy.

And now we have, uh, uh, much greater
range, but a lot of this took place

during timeframes that were far
more judgmental than they are now.

So as a society, that's one area
we've advanced in, but yes, that was a

problem, uh, during a, uh, a few times.

Travis Bader: Did you ever get made?

Well, did you ever get, uh, called out?

Like, were you after an extended
period of being undercover?

Did anybody ever say, wait a minute, I saw
the outline of his badge and his wallet.

The challenge?

Mark Horsley: Oh yeah.

Obviously nothing that bad.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the challenge did, but here's the
beautiful thing is, um, the criminal

element of, Gets really jerked around by
people who did the work that I did, and

I have no remorse or no apology for it
because after being investigated using

techniques that were authorized and
approved and are legal and convicted and

all kinds of things, or even just the
threat of, uh, arrest and conviction,

all of a sudden that 90 year old lady
using the walker going by their house,

that's Horsley, that master of disguise,
you know, there he is, you know, yeah.

And then, so they'd see cops everywhere,
but, uh, I mean, I got a, I got

a good story about getting made.

Yeah.

Okay.

So this is years and years ago,
uh, I was buying, uh, cocaine in a

restaurant and, um, and I had made
five or six buys from the same people.

And, uh, then I went back in and
they said, yeah, uh, but, um,

we'll meet you in the rear lane.

I said, okay, yeah, no problem.

So we go out the rear lane and they came
out with baseball bats, two of them.

Whoops.

And, um, this seemed odd to me cause
they didn't have gloves or balls, right?

And, uh, it wasn't
really baseball weather.

It was raining and, you know, down in
Vancouver and, and, uh, so I looked

at this and I thought, okay, um, You
know, and this thought process I'm

explaining takes place in a nanosecond.

Of course.

As a police officer, what do you do
if you're, you know, you're cornered

by a couple guys with baseball bats?

Um, you know, it's a use of force
situation and, and commands and,

uh, and escalating, you know,
use of force, uh, whatever.

But as a bad guy, what do you do?

That's exactly what I did.

So I, I ran away and, uh, uh, which
made sense, let a couple hours pass,

went and changed my clothes, went
back into the restaurant and said,

what the F were you guys doing?

I actually, Shit myself, and I had to
change my pants, like why were you guys,

well, we thought you were a cop, and
then they sold to me, and, and we built

her, we built her case, and away we went,
so yeah, yes, was I challenged, uh, in

many, many, um, circumstances, yeah.

Okay.

No.

Um, I did, uh, hope I'm not
treading too close to the line here.

I did, uh, uh, uh, on one particular, uh,
case get searched and I was armed and,

uh, now I beat the search and, uh, I'm
not going to get into how I did that.

Fair enough.

But, um, but, uh, I will say that,
um, uh, people sometimes don't sense

something they don't expect to find.

Um, uh, and so, you know, it, it has,
certainly there is, we're back to

that high level of confidence, you
know, I heard, I heard it said there's

a college basketball player that
everybody's talking about right now.

And, uh, they say, oh, he's awful cocky.

And I just said, he has to be.

You know, so, you know, you do
need that high level of confidence.

Right.

So, but, uh, uh, you know, if you
want to expand a little bit on

the appearance thing, did you want
to talk a little bit about that?

Yeah.

Okay.

So, there was a time where,
um, I had an old car.

Uh, the transmission went, young family,
money was tight, you know, we got the

big mortgage, we got all that going on.

I needed a car and I needed it now.

And I went into the Toyota dealership in
Port Moody and they would not talk to me.

They would not.

And I was there with my family,
very respectable looking wife

and all the rest of that.

But I did have, uh, you know, an
appearance that was, you know, particular

to a character that I was playing.

And, uh, went to another
Toyota dealership, walked in,

bought a car, but they had 0.

9 percent financing, and I took
their financing, so I had to,

you know, give my employment.

Stuff.

Right.

And, uh, and I just said to
the guy, I really appreciate

that you didn't judge me.

And he just looked at me and
said, well, you never know.

Right.

And, and it was true, but there was
another, uh, case where my wife and

I had, we were both shift workers.

We had days off, uh, in the
week we went out to Fort Langley

for lunch and it was snowy.

And there was an elderly
man helping his wife who was

wheelchair bound into their car.

And me being me, I went over and
offered to help scared the bejesus

out of them because, you know, it
was an intimidating, uh, appearance.

Sure.

And, uh, but I do also enjoy toying
with people during, during that time.

So I, we bought a house and we moved in
and And we couldn't tell my neighbors

who I was or what I was doing.

And, uh, so you've got this
very pretty, respectable

looking nurse coming and going.

And it was in the day where
they used to wear their nurse's

uniform, coming and going.

And this dirtbag, uh, who was vague about
what he did for a living and left, you

know, three o'clock in the afternoon,
came home three or four in the morning.

And, uh, And, uh, and, and I did kind
of, uh, enjoy toying with them and I'd

have friends and brothers, you know,
you knew the neighbor was listening

over the fence and they'd talk about
my prison time and, you know, it was,

we kind of toying with them a little
bit, but I think one of my favorites

was I was a volunteer youth coach and
I was doing a, uh, an investigation

that involved a biker persona.

And, uh, so I rode the, uh, uh, the The,
uh, motorcycle, uh, up to the community

policing station, uh, made lots of noise.

They knew I was coming and I went in,
uh, and they said you had to fill this

thing out for a criminal records check.

So I wasn't going to tell them who
I was, what I did for a living.

Fill this out, you know, date of
birth, name, all that kind of stuff.

And the lady behind the counter,
she says to me, uh, do you have,

uh, any criminal convictions?

And I went, uh, convictions?

No.

No.

I was toying with her.

That's funny.

You gotta have fun with life, right?

They do.

You do.

So, yeah, I mean, there
was, there were funny parts.

My wife got really tired of,
uh, like air travel where

they'd look at me, search her.

Uh, yeah.

Of course.

She got really tired of that,
but she saw the humor in it.

I mean, you know, yeah.

And fortunately there wasn't, you know,
there were a few long, long term ones.

And then.

My kids got to the age where, um, I
was very selective in my assignments.

I didn't ever want to give them
the impression that I was ashamed

of what I did for a living.

And unfortunately, your value as an
undercover operator, especially as a, as

a man, because the criminal world is quite
sexist, uh, increases the older you are.

And the challenge is, you know, the
older you get, the less you want to

be intrusive to your personal life.

Right.

So yeah, that was part of it.

Well,

Travis Bader: you mentioned that, you
know, it's been what, three and a half

years since you've retired and you really
haven't thought about the 35 years of.

Of policing until kind of,
you know, putting thoughts

together for the podcast here.

So many people will define
themselves by their career.

You seem to have had a fairly successful
transition from long service in

policing over into civilian life.

How did you find that transition?

And, uh, what did you
do to prepare for that?

Mark Horsley: Uh, well, I think
if you go back to all the way

back to entering policing, for
me, it was a consolation career.

Um, I, I, I wasn't one of these
people that wanted to be a

police officer from a young age.

I pondered it a little bit in high school,
um, but I went off and did other things.

I joined the police department
when I was 25, but I was already

married, already owned a house.

Uh, I was already, uh, going with my life.

I already had a life outside of work.

Um, always maintained a life outside
of work and, uh, uh, uh, I would

often see colleagues and I mean, if
you're really a person that tries

to be honest with yourself, you see
people who are deceiving themselves.

You see examples of that.

It's not to be smug.

It's just to go, okay,
I don't want to do that.

But they'd say, you know, I'm a
real family man and they would

use that as, uh, an excuse for
a mediocre career as opposed to.

It really being true, but for me,
it was, I had work weeks that were

very demanding, but I was also a
good enough planner to plan things.

Uh, I I've said to my kids, don't tell
me you didn't have a good childhood

cause I've got the photos, right?

You know, of all the things, the
camping trips, the, the, the canoeing,

all the outdoor stuff we did together.

And, uh, uh, then when it came to
retiring, um, Uh, I was, um, I, I think

the best way to describe it is I loved
going to work, I enjoyed, uh, my career,

the ups and downs, uh, the, the victories,
the defeats, the, I enjoyed all the

living, everything I learned, and as I
approached the end of it, I kind of felt

like, I had been in high school for 10
years and it was just time to leave now.

And so I felt good about leaving.

I didn't, right to my last
day, I never had trouble going.

I never, I never hated it.

It was a very interesting thing
as I kind of, uh, reviewed my

career and purged documents and
files as I got closer to retiring.

It was, uh, Uh, probably a good example
of the, uh, compartmentalization that

I did is when I looked at files, I
looked at really graphic, violent

incidents that I hadn't thought
of at all in some cases 20 years.

And I thought that was maybe a good sign.

And um, uh, so when I, I left,
I, I left feeling like I was

turning this over to others.

And that I was entering
a new phase of my life.

And, uh, so yeah, it's not
that there's anything bad.

It's just that, um, well,
I'll give you an example.

I did a tremendous amount of work.

I had a side business where I did a
lot of technical writing and, uh, you

know, I'm a pretty good writer, uh,
pretty, and I, I always had people

saying, you know, you need to write
all your stories when you retire.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Horsley: I, I'm not
finished making them.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Mark Horsley: I don't want
to sit and live in the past.

I want to make the stories.

I don't, and, and so a lot
of them are going to be lost.

Um, and, and I don't spend a tremendous
amount of time focused on that.

I'm more focused on the
present and the future.

So, yeah, the last thing.

Three and a half years, uh, as a
retired person have been fantastic.

We staggered our retirements.

My wife and I, uh, she retired two and
a half years before I did, and that

was, I think, a really good decision.

Uh, she found all her own activities
and her things to do and, and

that worked out really well.

Um, But, um, the last two weeks, uh, since
you invited me to the podcast have been

sort of, uh, lots of memories, nothing,
nothing negative, just lots of things

that I don't generally fill my mind with.

So.

Travis Bader: You know, I
was thinking about negative

memories and negative thoughts.

And a lot of people
will go through events.

You're talking about some horrific things
that you're looking at, that you're

able to compartmentalize other people
have a more difficult time with that.

And that resiliency is,
um, different in everybody.

When people talk about PTSD, I
was, uh, talking with Anthony

Staziker, he goes by Staz and he's
ex British special boat service.

He's got a company called ThruDark
with his, uh, uh, his friend,

Louie, who's also special forces.

And he was talking about PTSD.

He's like, you know, everyone
talks about, you know, the

flashbacks, I get the flashbacks.

So it's more like.

It's really exciting.

And I wish I could do that again.

And it was, I thought it was interesting
looking at different, um, mindsets and

perspectives to stressful or traumatic
events and how an individual can frame it

for themselves to where it's either going
to be detrimental to them or something

that was an exciting, an event for them.

So.

I don't know if you.

Okay.

You opened a can of worms here.

Sure I did.

Mark Horsley: And that's a good thing.

I have very, very strong
feelings about this.

Um, uh, because I've seen
an industry exploit, um, uh,

first responders, uh, military.

And, and, um, there's been an
exponential increase in PTSD cases.

Um, PTSD is real.

There's no question about it.

But, um, our cases have gone way up,
and my question is, how much of that

is impacted by improper selection?

Are we selecting the wrong people?

What are we doing for resiliency training?

Because there's no doubt that a
person is far better off not having

PTSD than being treated for PTSD.

Yeah.

Um, Uh, and then, uh, we've got what I
view as a change in how we handle, uh,

people post traumatic, uh, incidents,
um, and I think that what we should be

measuring is what is the impact of that.

Because remember, I, I come from, you
know, as a, as a collegiate athlete

running track, it was a ball game.

It's all about doing what I needed to do
to run a faster time at a given distance

as a, as a, uh, you know, precision
pistol shooter is a rifle shooter.

It's all about what can I do to
put every hole in the X ring.

And then you look at this.

If you accept that it's better to, um,
have people not have PTSD than treat it

for them, what can we do to prevent it?

Then, um, I, I went, uh, um, One for
five in dealing with psychologists,

good experiences to bad experiences.

So I had one outstanding experience
related to, uh, uh, uh, an employment

provided psychologist and the other
ones were horrific and, um, In one

case, uh, I referred to, because,
uh, in an incident, I suffered a

brain injury, traumatic brain injury.

Part of the healing of a brain
that's been damaged and torn is that

you get these very vivid dreams.

Um, and the psychologist, And I
explained this, and I didn't want to

go to a psychologist, but the doctor
who was handling my case said that,

you know, to do everything you can to
fully recover physically, emotionally,

mentally, you should do this.

So I went.

Sure.

And I'm explaining this, and she
kept referring to it as nightmares.

I said, wait a second,
I never said nightmares.

I'm talking about.

Complex involved dreams, which
is all part of getting that

brain working together again.

So, um, you know, I, I look at it, uh,
and, um, uh, I don't have, uh, PTSD.

I'm very thankful.

Uh, but.

In my career, I face the things that
I expected I would have to face.

And when I signed up, I knew that
somebody might try to kill me.

And yes, they did be different.

People tried to, to kill me and,
and these different things happened.

And, uh, we've got to go
back to, uh, fictional works.

Uh, I'll tell you, man, uh, when it
comes to use of force, uh, And, uh,

people trying to hurt you or kill
you, um, the trauma comes out of the

fear of what could have been lost.

Right.

Not being a father there to my child,
not being a husband there to my wife.

It does not come at all from what
somebody got that they deserved.

Mm.

And, uh, and so I look at it and go, okay.

I knew what I signed up for, I
got what I signed up for, um, PTSD

to me would be something where
somebody got something they were

completely, um, uh, unprepared for.

Like there was a case in Toronto, uh,
Metro Toronto area where a fellow was in

his front yard and, um, uh, A vehicle,
uh, sped through his neighborhood,

came up on his front lawn and killed
two kids, two, two little kids.

That's a PTSD case.

Like, how, um, you know, somebody
gets, uh, cancer, uh, that could

be a PTSD case, um, My grandfather,
uh, fought in World War I.

He was shot and returned to battle.

Uh, he was hit by a
grenade, shrapnel, returned.

He was a teenager.

That's a different type of,
he saw what he saw in trench

warfare in the First World War.

Sure.

I can't go into the
afterlife and say to him.

If I am honored to meet him,
that, uh, something that I did

in policing has caused this.

So, but having said everything I said,
and I'm, I'm quite passionate about it.

If I had PTSD, I would be addressing
it, but I'd really rather just not.

Travis Bader: You know,

Mark Horsley: I,

Travis Bader: I agree with
that a hundred percent.

I think when you say that an
industry has been made around PTSD.

It's despicable.

Mark Horsley: It really is
because it's predatory and it's,

uh, it's, uh, exploiting people.

And, uh, um, you know, like, I, I gotta,
sorry, cause I'm, I'm so passionate

about this when I went to see this
psychologist and his name is Mike Webster.

The first thing he said to me is
my goal is to make my services

unnecessary as soon as possible.

Perfect.

Dude, you're my guy.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, exactly.

I had one session with him.

It lasted, you know, hour and a half.

Now it was it.

And, uh, and it was, it was awesome.

As opposed to other ones.

Once a

Travis Bader: week, every
week, the rest of your life.

Mark Horsley: Well, I mean, there
should be enough business without

having to drum up business, you know?

So.

Travis Bader: Well, I'm, you know, uh,
I have a, of the mindset that a lot of

times the treatment is the poison and
people who are, you know, Suffering

from an event and they might not be able
to put their finger on why that was.

And they go see a professional and
the professional says, well, you

know, could be PTSD, it could be this.

And they say, Oh, there it is.

I am my PTSD.

Got it.

That's me.

I'm, I'm Bob with the
PTSD, whatever it is.

Um, When the reality is it's like
getting a cut or a broken bone.

It's like, oh, you had an incident.

It was, it looks like you
have a broken bone there.

Okay.

Well, path forward is pretty simple here.

We'll put it in the cast.

We'll get you going forward and, and
we'll have you out of here in no time.

In a month, we can check back and see
where you're at, but you'll probably have

full mobility and you were good to go.

And I think if people start taking
that approach to, uh, their, their

Emotional and mental injuries in the
same way that they would approach a

physical injury, I think would probably
be, it would normalize it for people

who are afraid of talking about it.

And all of a sudden it's not
this big monster out there.

It's like, oh yeah, no, I had this thing.

I'll just, I'll deal with it.

And on we go.

That's my two bits.

I might have some people out there
who hate that, that view, but,

Mark Horsley: uh, that.

Well, I mean, ultimately
it should be the goal.

So, uh, I mentioned this
traumatic brain injury.

I suffered, I dealt with a
phenomenal, uh, doctor, uh, Dr.

Rebye.

He, um, he was just fantastic.

And he said, you have to move forward,
um, feeling like you had a brain injury.

Not you have a brain injury.

This is a key distinction.

He said, did you ever pull your hamstring?

When, when you, your hamstring, when
you were running track, I said, yeah.

He said, then, then in grade eight,
you had a hamstring pull, but

you don't have a hamstring pull.

Now, uh, that being said, uh, we, If we
focus on what we can do versus what we

can't do, that's, uh, uh, a better way.

One of the really key things he said,
he said, I, he said, you can return

to work with this brain injury.

You can do better than you ever did
before, outperform anything you ever did

at work before, if you follow a few rules.

And one of them, was doing your job.

Do your job.

Don't do everyone else's job.

And, and, and it was like there was some
kind of guidelines to how to succeed.

And I listened to, you know,
what he said about that and,

uh, but you're absolutely right.

You can have, um, psychological troubles
with something, uh, look at it in

athletic performances where sometimes
people will have trouble overcoming

something, but then they do overcome
it and they become a world champion or,

or, you know, they, they exceed their,
their, their Previous performances.

So absolutely.

It's something that people can overcome.

Uh, I gotta, you can edit this
out, but it's a real quick story.

Um, I, Andrea and I were, uh, you
know, at a really busy stage of life.

Two professionals, uh, I
felt we'd become distant.

We had kids.

I was coaching.

I had a side business.

I was working a demanding profession.

Um, you know, I'm an energetic person.

I had a lot on the go, but I felt
like we were just growing apart.

And so there was, uh, uh, marriage
counseling, uh, available, uh,

through our, uh, human resources
at the police department.

And I went and saw a psychologist.

Initially, Andrea wouldn't go.

And then she, uh, uh, agreed to go and,
you know, I'm working on this cause I

want to be successful in this partnership.

I love her dearly.

I want this to, to work out.

And, uh, um, she joined me and of course
this was all supposed to be confidential.

And, uh, the, um, uh, one of my
former partners, uh, Uh, uh, came to

talk to me and he says, how, how's
things going with your marriage?

And I said, well, like
what's driving this?

I hadn't said anything
to anybody but Andrea.

Yeah.

So the confidentiality had been breached.

Yes.

Well, Andrea hit the roof.

And, uh, uh, when she found out and,
um, she refused to go to any more.

And of course I felt betrayed.

I didn't go to any more of these
sessions, but we realized something.

We didn't need the psychologist.

We needed the date.

That accompanied every visit to the
psychologist where we'd usually, you

know, daycare arrangements and we'd go
out to lunch and we spent time together.

So what we realized is we
didn't need the psychologist.

We just needed to schedule dates where
we, where we'd spend time together and

we'd go for a walk or go for a meal or,
or do something and, and have that chance.

I mean, people who don't have
shift work, um, Uh, challenges.

I don't think they understand how
difficult it is to stay connected with

a partner who's on shifts and you, and
then you're juggling daycare as well.

I don't think they understand it.

And more importantly, I don't think they
appreciate it and take best advantage

of it, you know, uh, because that.

Little bit of time you have for
each other every day to just, you

know, communicate is huge, but
that was a lesson out of that.

We didn't need the psychologist.

Travis Bader: That's a good lesson.

You know, it, it reminds me, and
I've said this one before, but a

crocodile Dundee where He, I think
he was at a party in New York.

This person is a psychologist
or a psychiatrist.

What's that?

Oh, you don't have
those in Wackabow Creek.

You go in, you pay him a bunch of money.

You talk about your troubles
and you see him every week.

And he's like, you don't have that.

He said, well, we've got
Bruce, the bartender.

Right.

You tell him, tell him your problems.

He tells everybody
else, no, we're problem.

Right.

So.

Sometimes that breach of confidentiality
could be as terrible as it is in the

time, the impetus or something that
just kind of sheds light on something.

And it's, huh, you know what, the
solution is pretty obvious now.

Mark Horsley: Well, yeah, we, I mean, and
we learned something from that, right.

But as far as the, uh, uh, you
were, I think I took you off topic.

Cause you were talking about
transitioning from being a police

officer to being an old retired.

Old retired guy.

No purpose in life.

Travis Bader: Who's
shooting all over the world.

Who's got a beautiful Elk in Montana.

And, um, I'd love to hear that story too.

I've seen the pictures, but I'd love
to hear the, uh, the elk story as well.

Mark Horsley: Okay.

Uh, so.

So, uh, have a, a friend, uh,
Gary Crane, he's retired from,

uh, Portland Police Department.

He called me up and said, uh, would
you like to do an elk hunt in Montana?

I said, yeah.

And, and a lot of time people say
I'd like to do something someday.

Yes.

And, uh, this is one of the lessons
learned from me is you, you, some day is

actually today, my wife would say, when
I retire, I want to, I want to do this.

I want to play the ukulele.

I want to travel to here.

And I go, no, no, no, book
it now and, and buy it now.

And cause you don't have time.

And what Gary says is I have to do it now.

Cause he says, I'm going
to be 77 years old.

On this hunt.

So we had to do it well anyway, we,
uh, went through the process, put in,

uh, bought our, uh, hunting licenses
in Montana, uh, put in the draw,

and we both drew, uh, wow bull tags.

So, um, now we're, we're off on
this trip and, um, uh, it was,

uh, very interesting because we've
had all kinds of gun law changes,

different things that have been done.

And, uh, uh, so the process before
was I needed an ATF 6, uh, to

cross the border, uh, with two
hunting rifles, both 30 odd sixes.

I got that in 24 hours.

I submitted electronically.

It's returned to me.

Uh, then the next thing I had to
find out was, uh, could I bring.

Uh, if I couldn't, it wasn't going
to stop me from doing the trip.

There's actually ways you can donate
it to food banks or I could have

given it to Gary and his family.

Uh, uh, but I went from government
agency to government agency,

spent hours and hours and hours.

And then I finally, uh, Found,
uh, and I can't even remember

the names of all these agencies.

I finally found somebody that, uh, said
I could bring it back and directed me

to the, the rule book that said I could.

Travis Bader: Just had to be boned?

Was that the rules?

Uh, no,

Mark Horsley: you can actually
bring the carcass back.

But what I did is I had it,
uh, uh, cut, wrapped and frozen

before I, before I came back.

But, uh, then there was the process of
trying to get, uh, permits from Canada.

And, uh, so previously your, um,
uh, ATT, uh, would allow you to

take the, your rifles to the border.

You needed nothing.

Travis Bader: So your, your PAO.

Mark Horsley: Yes.

I'm sorry.

Just your PAL.

Yeah.

Because ATD would be for your handguns.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

I'm getting my, uh, my, uh, uh,
categories mixed up, but you're right.

It was just your, um, uh, your PAL.

Got a guy from the Canadian Firearms
Center, talked to him and he says,

that's all you need to get to the border.

I said, would you send me an email?

And he did, that was awesome.

And I'm compiling all of this in a
tabbed binder as I, as I'm doing this,

now I'm dealing with global affairs and
we had a little bit of history trying

to get my permits to go to Sweden last
year for the world precision pistol

championships, which ultimately I got.

And they said, kept referring me to this
section about exporting military weapons.

Um, uh, calibers, right?

Like I'm a 30 odd six shooter.

Uh, and we went around
and around in circles.

Anyway, eventually, um, uh, a
friend who's a lawyer got involved

and educated them and there was
a bit of face saving involved.

And they made me get a general
export permit, which the lawyer

said was absolutely unnecessary.

I'm going to, like, I just call people
up and say, what do I need to do this?

And I will jump through
whatever hoops you got.

Anyway, lots and lots of hours,
which I'm very resentful of.

If that happened during work
time, I could accept that.

But this is my time.

I'm retired, right?

This could be nap time or time
for me to wear a cardigan or

get new slippers or whatever,

Travis Bader: you

Mark Horsley: know, so anyway,
I had all my stuff in order.

I arrived at the border, uh, going,
uh, south, so I was driving, pick up my

buddy in Washington State, uh, and then
we were driving to Montana, and great

reception because I was well organized.

They, uh, checked the serial numbers,
through I go, no delays at all.

Got down to Montana.

Wow.

Yeah.

What a place.

I've been through Montana
on, uh, camping trips with my

family on, uh, motorcycle trips.

It's so beautiful.

And, uh, they have the most
wonderful attitude about hunters.

Hunters are, uh, uh, you know,
multi billion dollar industry

bringing tourists and money, and
they're so wonderful to deal with.

I had a little trouble
getting my everything online.

I got on the phone with this nice lady.

And it's like, they actually wanted
me to come and we're encouraging.

That's refreshing.

Oh, it was awesome.

Anyway, we got down there,
totally different type of hunting.

Okay.

Because we stayed in a motel.

Okay.

And, uh, we had an outfitter, uh, and
we had a guide and we had one guide for,

for two hunters and, uh, but the, they,
they said, okay, um, when you come out to

the truck every morning, uh, you have a
chamber drowned in the rifle safety on.

So, you know, you're in a different
country, different rules, nothing

unsafe about it, but you're
walking out of the hotel lobby.

With your rifle slung over your
shoulder, your backpack, your

food and all that, all that stuff.

And you walk right by police officers
and they don't even blink an eye.

Yeah.

It's Montana, right?

How cool.

So beautiful.

Anyway, day one, we get out and, uh,
only see one elk, um, and it's, uh, at

about 1200 meters, uh, but the mule deer.

The big horns that like, Oh, and the,
the scenery and it was spectacular.

So the, um, the outfitter I had said, I'd
really like to try and get my bull early.

I said, any legal bull, um, Uh,
I'm not after a trophy bowl.

I'd never shot an elk before.

So I was after any legal bowl.

My buddy was after more of a trophy bowl.

And, uh, so he says, well,
we got to go where they are.

There's, this was October.

He said, there's no real snow pack yet.

Uh, in the high country had
about 12 to 18 inches of snow.

So we get up at five in the morning on day
two, we, uh, drive way up this mountain

and we started our hunt at 7, 000 feet.

Travis Bader: Uh,

Mark Horsley: we had a young guide
who was 20 years old, uh, and

inexperienced and not very familiar
with his, uh, his navigation equipment.

So right away.

Uh, we got lost and I'll
backtrack again, cause I forgot

an important part of the story.

I have always hunted with a varmint gun.

I shoot Tikka varmint.

Yeah.

I have what I believe and what
I've been told is the only Tikka

varmint 30 odd six in North America
cause I got it out of Finland.

So it's a 14 pound rifle.

Yeah.

And I've always said, If, um, you were
worried about a few ounces on your

rifle, maybe take the 30 pounds that
are around your waist off first, right?

Like, and I've always ridiculed guys and
poked fun and all in, all in good fun.

Day one of that hunt, I'm
going, I can't carry this rifle.

You want to light a rifle.

I became an old man and it's
like I instantly aged anyway.

So my backup rifle, uh, Tikka T3 light
with a three by nine Bushnell, it's really

what my version of a scout rifle, right?

That's really what it is.

So that's what I carried day
two, cause I was dying day one.

Uh, and, uh, uh, anyway, we're climbing,
he gets lost and we spent a lot of

time trying to find the trail head.

And then we're, um, uh, a whole day.

Of climbing and we didn't stop for
more than five minutes at any time.

We got a foot, foot and a half of snow.

Uh, uh, I didn't count how many times
I fell because I want to be positive

and talk about how many times I got up.

Fair enough.

In the two days, it was 30.

So, uh, uh, it was slippery.

It was, oh, it was, uh, minus 17.

Uh, it was cold.

Um, probably underestimated
the water that I needed.

Definitely underestimated the
food that I needed to carry.

Um, and my, my buddy, what a tough guy.

Uh, he, but he knew.

77.

77 years old, but he knew that
he couldn't do the entire hunt.

So he partway through, uh, we agreed to
meet at a certain point in the afternoon.

Anyway, I climbed with this 20 year old.

We didn't see anything, nothing.

And comes to four o'clock in the afternoon
and I am bagged like I am so bagged, but

we got a long trek, uh, to get back to
where we're going to meet the outfitter.

Outfitter dropped us at one spot,
picking us up at another spot.

Um, so.

I'm eating my final Clif Bar,
I'm drinking like the last of my

water, and he says, I got bowls.

Okay.

Nice.

And, uh, there's a, a snow covered rock
that I proned on and this unbelievable

tangle of forest, and then a rise.

And he says they're over
there in the tree line.

And, uh, uh, I get, I get a look at
one that's head on, but it's got to

have a certain amount of brow time.

So I need confirmation
that it's a legal bull.

My opportunity misses on that one.

I got a second bull.

Who's only got a head
sticking out from the tree.

Now, from my view, it looks like the
tree is right here, but the tree could

be a hundred meters in front of it.

Right, right.

So, uh, the, the guy gets on
that one, says, yep, he's a legal

bull, but it's only the head.

I said, uh, can you arrange it?

He gives me a range, but
I learned a long time ago.

Don't

Travis Bader: trust it.

Mark Horsley: Trust my range.

Yes.

Right.

So I arranged it, uh, and
it was, uh, 472 yards.

Travis Bader: Was it similar
to what his range was?

Mark Horsley: His was closer.

It would have been off.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Horsley: Yeah, it
would have been off.

So what he did is bounced
off a tree closer.

Mm.

And what you can do is bounce off
a rock farther or a tree closer.

So I want to do my own range.

Anyway, bull comes, gives me a shoulder.

And I'm saying, I'm going to take
him if I get a shot, we're talking

back and forth and I'm really
solid and I got to qualify this.

This is my light rifle, but I have
trained to 600 meters with it.

I knew what it was I'm watching, you know,
all of these things, uh, Uh, you don't

have a kestrel, you don't, you know, all
this fancy stuff that guys do, this is

experience and sense and reading the wind.

Of course, you only have the wind where
you are, not the wind three quarters the

way to target all these other challenges.

Bull steps forward a little
farther and, and I press the

trigger and the bull disappears.

And, uh, the guide says,
I think you missed.

And I said, I did not miss.

I mean, a bull's a big target.

If you're used to shooting four inches
at 800 meters, a bull's a big target.

And, um, so I said,
there's no way I missed.

And, and Gary said, he's just
not used to a shooter like you.

Right.

Like, cause, and the kid was fantastic.

His name's Jason.

He had some horror stories
about, you know, some of the ill

preparedness of people getting there.

Sure.

Well, we got to ethically go,
whether I missed or I didn't miss.

You gotta go check it.

You gotta go check it.

Well, this was, uh, as tired as
I was, the worst CrossFit race.

Exercise workout you've ever seen
under logs, over logs, slip and fall,

get up, you know, uh, and down we go.

It took 45 minutes to cover this 472
yards to where the bull was shot.

Get there, there's blood and, um, go up
over the next rise and there he is bedded.

And, uh, so, uh, he, this is my
respect for this prehistoric beast.

Um, they're amazing.

He got up out of his bed.

Now, later when we field
dress, he was lung shot, he

was fatally, fatally wounded.

It was a perfect hit.

It's just an absolute perfect through
the, through the, uh, rib cage lung shot.

He got up and he started climbing the
next ridge and Jason says, take them.

And I said, range?

He said 150.

I knew it was zero, but you know,
you're questioning yourself.

Second shot, uh, uh, hits him.

I, uh, racked the bolt, Jason
says, wait, I don't see anything.

I, he's still climbing.

And then he starts to waver, you know,
he starts to, and down he goes and slides

down and get stopped on a, on a tree.

This is tough, tough country.

Well, so when we field dressed
them, second shot was a heart shot.

Okay.

So they're both fatal.

Good shots.

They were both.

And, uh, so Jay, Jason said, is it okay
if I film you approaching the animal?

I said, yeah.

He says, you don't seem, you know, we
shook hands, we did the high five and

he says, you don't seem overly excited.

I said, well, A, I'm really tired.

And B, you can't shoot like that.

If you're all excited.

That's right.

Exactly.

So, uh, anyway.

This is a trained thing.

This is So, so Gary had stayed behind from
where we shot, but he heard the kill shot

and he came down to his credit, crawling
through all that stuff at 77 years of age.

He got there after we'd field dressed.

So normally they do, uh,
a, uh, a gutless dressing.

I was going to ask.

I don't know.

I don't, I've never done it.

Um, but because it was late in the day,
We had to feel dressed to cool it out

and then do the recovery the next day.

Right.

So, um, anyway, uh, Gary got down and
we were able to get a great picture of

Gary and I, one with the guide and my
brother, uh, uh, John, who's a big hunter.

He says, you know, how
come Gary wasn't smiling?

Man, we were just so tired.

Well, anyway, we had, uh, a trip back
to where I'd fired from and I, uh, Uh,

slipped, fell, twisted, and tore my ACL.

And, uh, so I'm up there,
it's, uh, 10 below and getting

colder as we're losing light.

Uh, it was really great.

We got back to where we fired from.

We're getting a range for the walk down.

I had a spare set of, uh, gloves.

Gary and Jason didn't,
they both got frostbite.

Oh, really?

And as soon as the sun dropped, uh, the
wolves went off and I was so hungry.

I was thinking.

Oh, come in.

Cause I'm going to, I'm
going to shoot you in each.

I was like, I, you know, anyway, uh,
so what they call a trail in Montana.

And, and I, I really felt like I
was a city slicker, uh, having only

hunted everywhere in British Columbia,
because there was no trails at all.

Uh, and, and Jason, if it Gary's
navigation equipment, I don't

think we would've got back to
the truck four and a half hours.

Oh man.

After we got back to the shoot location
to get to the guide in the truck.

Now, in fairness, we were going really
slow cause, uh, I had an injury and,

and we'd both fallen so many times.

So, uh, but the, um, the outfitter
said that he sent guys hunting up

the trail, those wimps, 300 meters.

Cause we did, we didn't get any footprints
until we were 300 meters from the truck.

So we got back to the
truck at 10 30 at night.

And then we went back to.

Uh, the city, the only thing open
for food was the Taco Bell and, and,

and Gary says, I'm too tired to eat.

I said, look, man, after that,
you got to put some calories.

So I went out and got some burritos.

Oh my God.

I'm getting, I'm doing a
plug for Taco Bell here.

Like the truth was.

A turd wrapped in last week's underwear
would have gone down good at that time.

But no, we had, uh, so we got
a bag of tacos and ate those.

And to Gary's credit, he got up
and went hunting the next morning.

Like, uh, what a tough guy.

Travis Bader: And did the
wolves get to the elk or were

you able to retrieve the meat?

So,

Mark Horsley: okay.

So here's a great story.

I got, I now I'm bagged.

I feel old.

Uh, first time in my life,
uh, I got this knee injury.

And, uh, you know, the outfitter,
the deal with the outfitter

is they do the recovery.

Oh, really?

So, um, now I could have gone, I could
have participated, and they'll do it on

horseback, ATV, whatever they can do.

But this is what they did.

They hired, uh, uh, the, the guide
was, uh, uh, two times state wrestling

champion and, and two of his buddies,
not one of these guys made, weighed

more than a buck 50 and they went up
and brought this elk off that mountain.

Good for them.

Oh man, tough.

Tough kids, like I have nothing
but admiration for them.

But, you know, uh, so I
got the, uh, the elk back.

I got it in, I got it cut wrapped and
frozen, uh, and, uh, for transport.

It was fantastic.

Travis Bader: Beauty.

Well, I'm glad I got that story because
I was looking at those pictures and I.

Was, uh, was keen to hear this story,
but wanted to save it for this.

Mark Horsley: I know you turned
off the recorder a long time ago.

I know you did.

Cause I get pretty pumped
when we talk about hunting.

I got back and I knew I needed to upgrade
the scope on this light rifle, right?

Cause it was an old
Bushnell three by nine.

Now it worked and I knew how it worked.

It had hold over reticles and so
forth, but I shopped around and,

uh, uh, you know, Um, Vortex had
sponsored the Precision Pistol

Championship, uh, for three years, uh,
for the, our national championship.

And I, so I contacted Vortex and
said, Hey, can you help me out with,

uh, I'd like to upgrade this scope.

And I sent them a picture, told them the
story, uh, and they sent me a scope and

a bunch of swag, and it was really nice.

And, but.

The, uh, uh, Ken, the marketing guy
forwarded this to one of the executive

officers in the, um, in Vortex Canada.

And I got this lovely email
from him saying, uh, I've

never seen such a big buck.

Now I can relate to this because he's
probably my age and somebody probably

showed it to him on their phone.

So the picture's really small.

And, uh, it's just, it's
always been the standing joke.

Whenever you see a giant buck.

That gets away.

You say, I thought it was
an elk when I first saw it.

So yeah, he believes it was a buck
and I'm not telling him any different.

Good.

He's keeping his mouth shut and done.

That was a hell of a buck.

Travis Bader: I love it.

Well, is there anything else
we should be chatting about

before we wrap things up here?

Always, but

Mark Horsley: not today.

Travis Bader: Mark, thank you so much for
coming back on the Silvercore podcast.

I always enjoy chatting with you.

Mark Horsley: My pleasure.

Very few people want to listen to
old retired guys, so I appreciate it.