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Unlocking Leadership, previously Leadership 2020, is a podcast helping leadership lead in a world that is changing ever quickly. Join us as we interview even more inspiring people who provide information and skills on how to tackle the big questions affecting today’s leaders.
We blend real-life leadership experiences of our guests with the latest management theory to provide practical, relevant tips for anyone in a leadership position.
Unlocking Leadership asks the big questions about being a better leader in the modern workplace. Hosted by Clare Carpenter.
[00:00:00] Clare Carpenter: Welcome to Unlocking Leadership, a podcast about leading in a changing world, brought to you by Corndel, your strategic skills partner. I'm your host, Clare Carpenter.
I'm joined today by Rebecca Rodger. Rebecca is the Apprenticeship and Talent Development Manager for Ricoh UK. Hello!
[00:00:28] Rebecca Rodger: Hello!
[00:00:29] Clare Carpenter: Thank you so much for joining me today. As you arrive in the podcast, what would you like us to know about you? Who are you? Where have you come from?
[00:00:39] Rebecca Rodger: So I'm Rebecca Rodger, I live and work in the Midlands and work for Ricoh UK and have done for nearly six years now, and so my background is in apprenticeships and talent development, but before working for Ricoh I worked for a multi academy trust and I now volunteer in a multi academy trust, so a very strong background in education and destinations and careers and all that sort of stuff and I'm a mum of one.
[00:01:07] Clare Carpenter: So we're hearing loud and clear this investment in education and learning and growth from a personal and professional point of view.
[00:01:16] Rebecca Rodger: Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I'm very passionate about. I come from a bit of a mixed background due to, you know, divorce and moving and all that sort of stuff. So some parts of my childhood were very privileged, other parts were not so, and my secondary education was at a school that was an academy converter and so a lot of my personal history is about people investing in me and what that brought me in terms of opportunities and experiences and I guess my growth journey and I'm very fortunate for that and that's something that I'm passionate about providing other people and allowing people to be their authentic selves and get the most out of their professional lives, I guess.
[00:02:02] Clare Carpenter: And I guess you might hear that sort of comment quite widely used by organisations and by professionals within those organisations. What does that mean to you? How do you go about doing that?
[00:02:18] Rebecca Rodger: I think with my approach around authenticity is kind of, there's no formula to it, I guess. It's about being passionate about understanding the individual, so it's not necessarily a one size fits all training programme. It's about companies understanding the individual and having management structures whereby leaders understand their people and so it's a cascaded approach and I think that's really important to then the individual feeling valued, but also having that culture of trust and so that authenticity is not something that's driven out of a person or pulled out of a person, it's something that naturally flourishes. So I think there's definitely a lot to be said for good managers and a great culture and environment for people to feel empowered to be authentic and be their authentic selves.
[00:03:14] Clare Carpenter: Yeah, and that's sort of driven from senior leadership, I want to say across the organisation rather than down because that feels like a more authentic direction of travel. How do you see that playing out at Ricoh, for example?
[00:03:27] Rebecca Rodger: What I would want from my leader, I guess, is someone that I can go to, of course, with technical questions and they have that breadth of expertise, but someone that understands that human centric approach, so it's not necessarily about hierarchies or structures, it's about conversations and I definitely see in Ricoh, our leadership structures and the people that take on those leadership roles in the organisation are very open, they're very transparent, they are encouraging of people to come and speak to them and, I guess, be involved in those conversations. That is fundamental and I think what Ricohdoes very well, and we've got a programme that we call Living the Ricoh Way, which is about inclusive behaviours and it's about understanding across Ricoh's values, what behaviours are above the line and what behaviours are below the line, and by having that transparent model, I guess, that applies to every single individual, means that we have that environment where everyone is on the same page and we all understand what's expected of us, but that leaves us, you know, then free to be ourselves within that comfort and that environment of trust.
[00:04:45] Clare Carpenter: Thinking about the development of leadership skills, that feels like a tricky thing to navigate as a new leader. How do you notice if it's working and what do you do if it's not?
[00:05:03] Rebecca Rodger: I think when it comes to new leaders, I think as much as we would empower authenticity in the individual, I think it's empowering them to be leaders within their own style as well. I remember once I had a conversation with a teacher in one of our secondary schools and he sort of said, you know, I'd really like if we could set our science classes by being able to just pick the kids that I get along with, that get along with me, I interact with really well, and it's almost taking that approach as a leader. There are individuals that know that they can be leaders, and there's individuals that perhaps know that's not their particular style and so Ricoh for example, has spent a lot of time in doing, I guess, leadership competency assessments and supporting our people with insights into as a leader, what are their strengths, what are their possible challenge areas, and then supporting them to use that in developing their leadership potential moving forward and so for emerging leaders, that's really sort of driven, again, around that authenticity, so what are they good at? What are they not so good at? Where can they get support from? And what networks do they themselves need as leaders to, to build their particular leadership style moving forward? So I think it's a mixture of insights and networks that best support them to flourish moving forward.
[00:06:34] Clare Carpenter: And are those networks that you see building internally or do they include external networking as well?
[00:06:41] Rebecca Rodger: I think they have to include external. We're very fortunate in Ricoh to have, you know, a high number of colleagues that have incredibly long service, and with that brings an awful lot of benefits to the business and to our customers. But in terms of progress and I guess, anticipating and envisaging change, you have to have that external picture as well and so that's something that the business is committed to, so we are fortunate at Ricoh UK. We have our colleagues also in Ricoh Europe, Ricoh has made a number of acquisitions and so we have a broad, I guess, semi internal network to pick But it's also about cultivating what inspires you outside of the organisation as well and whether that be formal groups or particular individuals. We work for a long time with an organisation called Women Ahead Moving Ahead to do cross company mentoring and that is something that helps sort of expand horizons as well.
[00:07:44] Clare Carpenter: Yeah, and you know, we've talked a little bit about inclusivity and we've talked about some work that you're passionate about in that space, I know that social mobility is also something that is high on your agenda, both personally and professionally. What's the impact of that, do you think, in this sort of area that we're discussing right now?
[00:08:05] Rebecca Rodger: I think always in having diverse teams, in ensuring that there is equity across teams and the organisation, just further enables individuals to, I guess, have independent thoughts and bring that independent thoughts into the business. Social mobility comes an awful lot from my own background and is something that we've committed to supporting through our degree apprenticeship programs that we've just launched and we're a silver patron of the Prince's Trust. There's an awful lot of synergies for Ricoh around social mobility, but the net benefit to the business, you know, aside from sort of corporate social responsibility and doing the right thing is having a broad range of ideas at the table and with that naturally comes innovation, we're an organisation that is to some extent vanguarding parts of digital transformation and we're moving in spaces that traditionally you wouldn't have expected Ricoh to populate as a solutions provider service offering and having those diverse teams means that we're able to navigate those spaces in a much more agile way because the thoughts are there, the ideas are there, the creativity and innovation is there that you, sort of, won't get if you only have a single picture, a single, you know, unified thought you need the people that are going to disrupt and challenge, but also just sort of throw a different perspective into the mix is incredibly important for, you know, companies of all shapes and sizes to seek longevity.
[00:09:45] Clare Carpenter: I guess there's something really important about that from a commercial point of view as well, isn't there, in terms of how your own spectrum of diversity is reflected in that of your customer, how your impact is across the world that you're part of, not just the world that you exist in.
[00:10:03] Rebecca Rodger: Mm, absolutely, and I think it's a very complex world. I think it's one of those things that is almost crazy when you actually delve into it when, you know, if we weren't doing it, why weren't we doing it? It makes no sense why companies wouldn't naturally navigate towards empowering diverse communities within the workforce, it just makes no sense whatsoever, particularly when you think about customer bases, when you think about growth, it just is incongruous that you wouldn't have adopted that earlier to make sure that that's what you're achieving and yeah, it should be business as usual rather than, you know, a separate strand of focused activity, but it has to be that separate strand and we have to make sure that we're committing resource to achieving that diversity and inclusion.
[00:10:54] Clare Carpenter: I'm thinking about this in the context of your job title, actually, and you've referenced the world of apprenticeships a couple of times, and your job title leads with it, which is really unusual, actually, rather than you being the Talent Development and Apprenticeship Manager, it's the other way around. What's so important to Ricoh and for you about being involved in this world of apprenticeship?
[00:11:18] Rebecca Rodger: So I've been with Ricoh for nearly six years, and when I first joined Ricoh, we were a main provider. We delivered apprenticeships ourselves, as well as having our people go through the programs and we did that both for Ricoh staff and customers that we delivered apprenticeships to. So we sort of have a long, very detailed history with apprenticeships and the reason why it's so important is, I guess in terms of, early careers, but also the opportunities that it provides for our existing staff to upskill or potentially reskill. There are problems with the apprenticeship levy and they're very widely spoken about and challenges that businesses have faced. But underlying that is still a sort of silver thread of opportunity if we commit ourselves to sort of seeking those threads and so for Ricoh, we have seen the transformation that apprenticeships have delivered within our own staff. One of our apprentices sat their end point assessment on their 60th birthday, for example and that's because they had made the transition from, well, he told me the story. He said, you know, Ricoh, I did black and white printers, and that was great. I was happy. I knew my job. Then you introduced colour printers. I thought, no, I can never do a colour printer. Then you introduce multifunctional devices and I said, Oh no, I can't do, you know, I do printers. I don't do multifunctional devices and then throughout the progression of our products, we said, Oh, now we need you to be able to network those machines, we need you to sort of escalate your fault, fix, finding and solutions and they approached it sort of very... in very much a resistance mindset and through the learning experience realized, actually, I'm much more satisfied in my job through the learning that I've done. I'm able to do more, my customers are more satisfied and so the experience of that individual, I think, is a testament to the opportunity that apprenticeships provide being that on the job learning experience and being something that all companies are committed to through the apprenticeship levy anyway, we're just able to sort of maximize on that, optimize our spends of the levy and bring those benefits back to our people, both current and future.
[00:13:38] Clare Carpenter: Yeah, and it's so wonderful to hear the experience of somebody like that, in relation to their experience as an apprentice, because like it or not, and I've been involved in that world myself for a number of years, there's still so much prejudice attached to that word, isn't there?
[00:13:56] Rebecca Rodger: Absolutely. I think because, you know, my dad was an apprentice, an apprentice plumber and he did his apprenticeship with his dad, there's a very, very long history in this country with apprenticeships and so it's to be expected that the sort of taxonomy around it, because there is that heritage sort of remains static where the actual experience itself has moved on. So you kind of can't blame people for viewing apprenticeships in a certain when the word apprentice has meant something so different for such a long time. But my view of apprenticeships now is not about entry level, low level, you know, you've got level seven masters apprenticeships that, you know, in the marketplace now, that's not the case, but an apprenticeship is equivalent to continuous professional development nowadays. It's sort of, it's not what it used to be and it's an opportunity for anyone, you know, if you want to change roles, if you want to develop in your role, we've got degree apprenticeships happening in the business at the moment and that for young people is really the golden ticket, I think, of entering the workforce because you're getting that university experience and that degree but you're, you know, working and earning at the same time and you're not accruing university debt. So, you know, a lot of our apprentices had sort of, our degree apprentices had spoken to, you know, older siblings, people from their school that had gone away to university and sort of really struggled, although, you know, we talk about sort of the competition in the talent marketplace for particularly digital talent, we have an awful lot of young people that are struggling to get work placements, they don't have the sort of level experience that some employers are asking for after university and you're naturally accruing that as you're doing your degree apprenticeship and so you're not ending that degree potentially without a set career at the end and so, yeah, I'm really passionate about what the degree apprentices are doing particularly as well and it kind of just talks to the spectrum of apprenticeship opportunities there are. It can be at any age, it can be at any career stage and it can be, you know, really in any topic depending on where your role is progressing and what you're able to evidence in your work life as you're learning.
[00:16:20] Clare Carpenter: I'm thinking about the way that like it or not, we are all also part of an aging population, whilst apprenticeships and degree apprenticeships in particular, I mean, there is a no brainer right there, isn't there, about doing that. There literally is, I cannot think of a great argument against it at all, which doesn't mean there isn't one but I can't think of it, and I'm thinking as well as that though, the encouragement that you're also giving to members of your organisation who are, generationally, perhaps a little bit older or come from more diverse backgrounds and have never thought of themselves being able to pick up a significant piece of learning later on in their career and see the transformation that comes with that is really inspirational, isn't it?
[00:17:03] Rebecca Rodger: Massively, I think we have a number of affinity groups in Ricoh and those affinity groups are, some are clustered around protected characteristics we have a gender affinity group and we have an LGBTQ plus affinity group and these are board sponsored and so at an executive level, they have a high sort of time investment from our senior leaders.
But we also have one that's emerging around a multi generational workforce and what we've spoken about in that affinity group is really thinking about life stages and my approach in talent development to those life stages is sort of making sure that as a business, we're supporting the talent development that those individuals would want at any life stage.
So for example, I've been back a year from maternity leave and whereas before my maternity leave, I was sort of heading into the prospect of motherhood, not really sure where my career was going. I've come back and sort of realised now my son's a bit older, really I'm open to learning experiences again and so, you know, I'm completing an apprenticeship at the moment that's going to help me progress my career further and those life stages, I think, are really important when we're thinking about what talent development people would want and what's appropriate and making sure that we meet all of those and sort of not including, you know, potentially older parts of the workforce from development because It depends on where they are and what's happening in their lives as to whether they'd be open to that learning opportunity. So yeah, making the learning open to all is really important.
[00:18:44] Clare Carpenter: And it's throughout our life cycle, isn't it? You know, through your involvement with schools, see that's, you know, incredibly visible to you, but also then, you know, your example of your six year old employee who's, you know, seeing the benefit of that as well, it's fascinating to see it across all of the different milestones in life and see how it can support our continuous growth and that's what we want as human beings, isn't it?
[00:19:09] Rebecca Rodger: Absolutely and, you know, when we are thinking about, say, the workforce that is preparing to retire you know, end their working lives in a full time capacity, they have a breadth of experience and knowledge that unless a company is actively working to harness that, you just sort of lose, you know, day ten to day one, you don't have then that knowledge and experience in the business, unless you've worked specifically to capture it, harness it and find somewhere for it to go and having particularly young people, but people that are, you know, starting out on their careers with Ricohas sort of sponges for that information, receptacles for that information and experience, you know, is a really powerful relationship in the working population to share that level of experience. So that point is very different, but the value, you know, couldn't be higher in terms of what they can contribute to the business moving forward so that we don't lose all of that once they retire or once they leave the working population.
[00:20:23] Clare Carpenter: I wonder what your view is on what drives people in the workplace now, or in fact, how they articulate what that is, because listening to you speak, there's something coming up for me around this place of legacy, what we leave behind the footprint or the thumbprint that we leave on the business that we're part of. I wonder if you're seeing a shift as you see a shift in learning patterns and growth and development patterns, are you seeing a shift in terms of what's important to people from their work?
[00:20:52] Rebecca Rodger: I think so. I think when we're talking about Richo's journey through digital transformation, we talk sort of very much around what Ricoh calls fulfillment through work. So when Ricoh was founded in 1936, it was founded very much on the principles of fulfillment through work and what that has meant in is understanding that adoption of digital transformation sort of starts and ends with people and so that fulfillment through work is kind of removing anything, that we can from a process or infrastructure or solution perspective, to improve someone's quality of work life in terms of their tasks and what they're doing, but also making sure that those individuals are empowered in the workplace and so what that means is that they are driving fulfillment through work by doing work that is meaningful to them and that they are passionate about doing, that is aligned to their strengths and so that has been really important to, Ricoh to deliver that both to our people and to our customers.
[00:22:01] Clare Carpenter: What I'm hearing is a movement more towards the why of a thing, the purpose of the existence of the organisation in the first place, instead of this focus on performance output, so numbers, tasks, stuff, process, things. It's more about what do those bring us in terms of outcomes for us as a human. How do you, coming back to our original discussion around leadership skills, and we were talking about how would you work with a newer leader to help them encourage people to be their authentic selves at work, how then do you work with your leadership team or how do they work more with their people to I guess bring this fulfilment through work to life in terms of identifying what's important to people about coming to work?
[00:22:58] Rebecca Rodger: Hmm. I think what has been, I guess one of the key things that all organisations has found is that more people are searching for that work life balance and so that is equipped through flexible working and Ricoh a number of solutions and things that we provide businesses with to equip flexible working.
But from a leadership perspective, I think it's about having those foundations of trust and that an output isn't just time spent in the workplace or, on a task. It's about are they completing those tasks with passion, with enthusiasm, with agility? Are they sort of driven to succeed, not from a performance perspective necessarily, although it will naturally lead to increased performance, but is it something that they feel passionate about doing and a driving value for themselves and for the business. So there is that sort of thing around happiness, but it's about feeling like you're contributing to the whole and that is driving that sense of achievement. I think that's sort of a foundation of the fulfilment through work and how managers can support individuals and there is sort of transactional things within that that can support it and so knowing your team, knowing who has particular strengths, where tasks and projects best sit, but more broadly it's about the relationships, I think and building those relationships on trust and understanding individuals needs, I guess.
[00:24:36] Clare Carpenter: So a fascinating conversation we've been having today, starting from what's important about learning and growth and development, building an inclusive workplace and workforce that, you know, harnesses those differences with passion, with fulfillment at its heart, and also in this place of transformation and change and having some sense of contribution towards that. As we come towards the end of our conversation and coming from this place of passion for you in terms of people development, investment in growth and knowledge and learning, what would you say to somebody now in one of their early leadership roles or to a very senior leader around this space that might be interesting for them to take away and think about?
[00:25:29] Rebecca Rodger: I think one of the things that has been most enlightening to me in my professional journey is always be prepared to be positively surprised and I guess that comes down to optimism, it comes down to my own fulfillment. So I have the headspace to sort of take that on as either challenge or feedback or, you know, but being able to see people for who they are and the degree apprentices, I think has started to do that within the business.
I think there's lots of pockets of hidden talent that when you open yourself up to being positively surprised or engaging with different people, it's a fantastic way to challenge your own thinking and you naturally become more productive and more engaged in your task by having that open dialogue with anyone around what you're doing, how can it be done better, and not presuming that you're sort of your own subject matter expert, I guess, and taking on lots of ideas around what you're doing, so it's, that's not really a nugget, but I guess it's, it's having that sort of spirit of openness is very important and I think as well as the openness, it's about understanding how trust works and that it is something that in order to get, you also have to receive, no, you also have to give, that's what I mean.
So, the second thing is about trust and that in order to receive trust, you have to give trust and that can feel very challenging to do, it can feel very confronting to do because, you know, particularly, I know when I've been in sort of earlier stages of my career, you sort of want to be the one in the know, the one, the right person, you know, all those sorts of but having trust in other people to be there to support you is, is very important, but it's reciprocal, and so having the trust in your people will allow them to flourish and them to feel, you know, like their most empowered selves. So yeah, it's probably those two things, openness and trust are bedrocks of positive, relationships between leaders, peers, colleagues across the business.
[00:27:58] Clare Carpenter: That feels like a really wonderful place to park our conversation for today and thank you for your openness today. It has been such a fascinating journey through your head. So thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing that with us. It's been an absolute pleasure, Rebecca Rodger. Thank you.
[00:28:17] Rebecca Rodger: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:28:19] Clare Carpenter: Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of Unlocking Leadership, you can subscribe through all the regular podcast channels and please do leave us a rating and review there. We'd also love you to share any episodes you found interesting so that others can join the conversation and share their experiences.
This podcast was made in association with Corndel. It was produced and edited by Story Ninety Four.