Lisa Sharapata takes Derek through the Outward Mindset as taught by the Arbinger Institute. Are you in the box or out of the box?
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to the Essential Dynamics Podcast. I'm Derek Hudson. Essential Dynamics is a framework I've been developing to help us think through our most important challenges and opportunities. And in this podcast, we test the concepts of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. Today, I'm really thrilled to welcome Lisa Sharapata to the podcast.
Derek:Lisa, welcome, and, thanks for being an inter interesting person ready for a deep conversation. How are you?
Lisa:I'm great. Thanks. How are you?
Derek:I am fine. And I I have to tell you, I'm I'm really excited about, this particular conversation ever since I ran into, the Arbinger Institute and its material. And that's why I, that's why I tracked you down. So, Lisa, you're new to the Arbinger Institute. Maybe you could just tell us just a little bit about your background, and then we'll get into Arbinger in a minute.
Lisa:Yeah. Absolutely. Prior to Arbinger, I've been in the b to b tech space for over a decade. And before that, in a variety of other roles, companies that were, I don't know, pretty different and unique from each other, but I originally started off in the agency world as a graphic designer. So I kinda feel like I'm coming full circle here at the Arbinger Institute.
Lisa:It's been it's a really interesting journey.
Derek:And you said that, you just moved from Chicago. Is that your home is that your hometown?
Lisa:I act I grew up in Wisconsin right over the Illinois border, and then I actually moved out to Denver for seven years after college, and then I moved back, and then I moved to the Chicago area. So, I would not say it's my hometown, but I definitely, you know, grew up kind of between Milwaukee and Chicago and going to both of those cities and spending a lot of time there.
Derek:Yeah. I I was telling you just before I started that I lived in Chicago for a year. Just love the city and the the vitality, diversity, architecture
Lisa:It is a great city for, like, three years or three months of the year.
Derek:Oh, come on. Cold.
Lisa:Yeah. But maybe four. No.
Derek:Yeah. And you're talking to me and up here I'm up here in the great White North
Lisa:Mhmm.
Derek:Where when they when the groundhog sees, the the shadow or doesn't see the shadow, whatever brings six to four weeks of winter, we think that's a break. So Lisa, the reason that I wanted to talk to you, and thanks so much for agreeing to talk, is because I was very struck by some of the material I started to read from the Arbinger Institute. And, as I've been developing, my work on essential dynamics, I saw a real fit, between some of the stuff that I was looking at and the philosophies that, are are shared at the Arbinger Institute. So I I went into sort of stock mode on LinkedIn and tried to find who I knew that knew somebody that knew somebody. And, while I was doing that, and I do have, there's a previous podcast guest or two that are connected with some people at Arbinger, in Utah.
Derek:I I think I saw your post saying, I just joined Arbinger, and I'm really excited. And I thought, okay, this is the person I need to talk to. So, let me set up, the way I think that, I've finally sort of captured in, in what I now call essential dynamics. And so one of the things I was looking at is how do I solve business problems? How do I think about them?
Derek:Because I knew it was it was reasonably consistent, but I don't know that I was that aware of what I was doing. And, it all it all come together when I thought, you know, it makes sense to accept the fact that things are hard in life and that there's opposition. And, one of the ways that that kind of is more palatable to us for more fun is if we think about the idea of an epic quest. Because in a quest, if there's no opposition, there's there's no story. And and so as I explored that, I thought, well, in a quest, you have really, there's only there's only kind of three essential elements.
Derek:There's the, the person that sets out on a journey, which is the second thing, to achieve some important purpose. So there's people and path and purpose. And if we take a look at organizations and we look at break things down into kind of those elements, and then consider the impact of opposition, we learned some interesting things. And so I looked at, purpose, and recognized that most organizations actually have more than one purpose. That we have to deal with conflicting objectives sometimes.
Derek:When I look at the path, I think about the things that move you forward on the path and things that hold you back. And I refer to those as drivers and constraints, and I got that much. And then I got to the people and I thought, well, what, what, what's the conflict with people? What's the inherent sort of dynamic forces? And what I came up with was, it's really the collision, I guess, of people wanting to be an individual, and be in charge of themselves, and people wanting to belong to group, and being part of a group.
Derek:And then from the other side, as an employer, we want people to do what we tell them to do. And we want them to bring all their creativity and motivation to the game as well. And so that sets up this conflict. So when I read, Leadership and Self Deception, I recognized sort of a kindred well, actually, no, I had read that book just before I started this. And it came back to me and I thought, Yeah, there's something to this people question that we don't spend enough time talking about.
Derek:And so I would like I don't I guess where I'd like to start is, what attracted you to the Arbinger Institute? And the second question would be, what's it like now that that you're there in terms of this philosophy about people that Arbinger carries?
Lisa:I mentioned I've been in b to b tech for over a decade. And one of the many repeated themes that I've been seeing recently is this growth at all costs mentality. And, you know, that is that's a problem for a number of reasons. One of one of which is you can't create a repeatable scalable go to market strategy when you have a growth at all cost strategy. So, you know, you're starting to see all of these b to b tech companies with major layoffs and problems happening.
Lisa:And, I mean, this was what I, again, had just been seeing time and time again. So, you know, I'd already kinda made a strategic decision. Whatever role I take in my next position wherever I go, I want to be a team with people who understand inherently that you can't just throw money or more people at problems to scale that. And it starts with the mindset really of buildings, how you're going to build this. And so I didn't know where that would take me, but I knew that I wanted to be in a culture where that was the mindset.
Lisa:Ironically, I ended up at a company where all change starts from this concept of mindset and there's they're not totally related. But the whole concept behind what are injured saying is this theory around. There's an outward mindset and there's an inward mindset and with an outward mindset, which there's not human nature. It's not our first instinct. You are then able to see other people as people and see how you impact them and their impact on you.
Lisa:And ultimately the idea is to then be able to get to a place where you're coming together, building a relationship that will ultimately drive the results that you're trying to drive. And without that, when you're basically there's a lot of friction and you're working against each other and you can have whatever leadership training you on or whatever things put in place at any organization or in any place in your life, really. But if someone just telling you I need to go in and change these behaviors, you need to do things this way or the highway. You know, people may change for a short term or while they're being micromanaged and someone's looking, or they may even try to make some of the changes maybe to be a better leader. They've learned they need to do a better job of listening and they've learned x y and z listening skills.
Lisa:But if they deep down haven't changed how they think about that problem and their role in the problem, it won't be sustained over time. Like this is why most New Year's resolutions fail after, you know, the first fifteen days. This is what, you know, all of the things that we know. But if you really wanna make change, it has to come from something beyond just being told what behavior to change. And so once I started getting immersing myself into the material and understanding that and then not only seeing how that was impacting other companies and their ability to create change, but how it was actually lived and breathed inside the Arbinger Institute, it was like sold.
Lisa:Like, stop. You know? I don't need to to look any further.
Derek:So so let me ask you because I'm not clear. Did you investigate the material after seeing the specific opportunity at Arbinger?
Lisa:I did. Actually, someone reached out to me about the opportunity, and I was like, yeah. This is interesting. But then I picked up leadership and self deception. I hadn't read it prior.
Lisa:And I was like, you know, I like this. This is you know? And then as part of the interview process, they gave me access to their outward mindset online course so I could do that myself. And then actually, as I was going through the interview process too and getting further along, I went to a public a two day sorry. A two day workshop that was actually being held for the Air Force.
Lisa:And when I saw, I mean, there's like some high ranking Air personnel in this course. And when I saw how this is breaking down barriers with with that audience, I'm like, if this if this works in this setting with this group, like, it can work with anybody, I would think. And it was just really compelling. So, yeah, that I started to immerse myself more and more in it as I got deeper in the interview process, but I was not aware prior to.
Derek:And it was what you're looking for, though?
Lisa:It was. Just didn't know it.
Derek:That's fantastic. Yes, so so much there because I really want our listeners to understand a little bit more about the outward mindset, and trying to think of the best way to introduce that. So my experience is with leadership and self deception. At the time I read the book, I was the CEO of an organization with 1,500 people. There was a bit of a conglomerate that supported economic development tourism in our city here in Edmonton.
Derek:And there were lots of, lots of forces at play, including a decision by our owner, the city of Edmonton City Council, to break up the organization. So that decision had been made. I was the leader of these people who were in, in turmoil. And then I read Leadership and Self Deception. And I would say to everyone who's listening and everyone else, you should read the book, but be prepared, to get hit pretty hard.
Derek:I mean, that was my, that was my experience anyway. Because one of the things that it teaches you is maybe sometimes when you're being a great people person, you're doing that because you're trying to get people to do something, and not because you really, really, really care about those people. You in fact, you may even care about the people, but you're still maybe motivated by other things. Would is that is that fair judgment?
Lisa:Yeah. I absolutely. And I think the other point that's made in there that we probably don't think about as much is that most people can tell the difference. They know if you're coming at something from a place of wanting something from them that's gonna help you or because you really care about them and the outcome.
Derek:So if if we can see it as sort of recipients, why do we have such a hard time in organizations and institutions and as leaders, or even just as people in terms of how we treat other people?
Lisa:Yeah. I mean, the book goes into this in-depth, and I do think it's it's complex, and it's hard to just explain at a very, like, scratch the surface level that will like, the book will talk about being in the box or out of the box. And this concept of being, quote, unquote, in the box is that you're looking at other people basically as either a vehicle or an obstacle or irrelevant. And you're also then coming from a place of either deserving something, being better than somebody, being worse than somebody, or being need to be seen as something specific. And when you are approaching any challenge, any problem, any desired outcome from one of those places, You know, inherently, there's just gonna be a lot of problems that go with it.
Lisa:And, again, like, it's it's hard to just scratch the surface on this and not really, like, get immersed into the whole story in the book and some of the materials. But I think we can all kind of understand that, like, if I if I came to you and said, you know, I'd really like your help with this project. I think it's gonna be really good for your career if you, you know, put aside some of the other things that you're doing and, you know, get on this, you know, mission with me to, like, make these changes. And and if they they know deep down, like, I'm not gonna give them any credit in the long run. I'm looking to advance in my career, and I will climb over anybody to get there.
Lisa:And I'm approaching it from that standpoint versus like, hey. I've been mentoring you for quite some time. Like, we have a lot of great conversations about how we could help, you know, I could help build this person up in the organization. Like, I've been looking out for their best interest and along the way, giving them some opportunities to do things, and they're seeing that this has been very beneficial for them. And I come to them and say, hey.
Lisa:I've got this great opportunity for you to help with this project. They're gonna look at it completely differently. And so I I think that's the thing that really struck me was again, you know, we we all kinda know this when it's us and we're the ones being impacted, but for whatever reason, like, we think we're immune to these things when it when it comes to us.
Derek:Well well and that's the problem with being in the box is you're in the box, and then you can't see outside the box. And I think I remember I was just scanning some of my highlights from those books, and, it's this is a real problem because the problem is you don't know the problem. You're the problem. Right.
Lisa:And that's this whole concept around self deception. Right?
Derek:Right. Right. So when I was, putting together the pieces of Essential Dynamics, and I got to the people side, well, actually, when I had the the three elements, and then I thought, well, one way interesting way to look at it was what is the sort of ultimate objective in that dimension? And so for, purpose, we talk about having a purpose X and a purpose Y. So they're not the same, but, you know, they can be brought together.
Derek:So I was thinking of things like alignment or integration or harmony. And on the path side, which is the systems and processes that an organization uses, and I talk about drivers and constraints being opposing forces, the word that came to mind really quickly was flow. Because if you think about a process that's flowing, there's a propelling force, but there's also, there's also boundaries and constraints. You know, if if you want something to oil to flow across Canada, which is important to us, we put it in a pipeline, and we constrain it so it can only travel in one direction. And so flow made a lot of sense.
Derek:When I got to, to the people side, I was feeling quite introspective, and I thought, well, well, maybe isn't it just about love? Isn't it just about the way we treat other people? And, I put this draft together, and I sent it to my advisory panel, which is my kids and their spouses. And, they came back, and they says, yeah, we get it. But do you think that love thing is really going to fly in the corporate environment?
Derek:So I kind of, I kind of didn't go there with all of them. I just kind of left that, I'm now thinking that, what the outward mindset philosophy is, if it's not love, it's respect. If it's not love or respect, it's at least the golden rule, about seeing other people as you'd want to be seen. What do you think about, the does everyone talk about love at Arbinger, or have you kind of reduced it so you don't get you don't get the backlash that I might have got?
Lisa:Well, I think it's more around building relationships and, learning more about each other and in a way that you understand in a business setting, how does my role impact your role? What what are the things that I'm doing or vice versa that a really, you know, we're going to make it harder, more difficult or more challenging for you to do what you're trying to do. And, you know, there's more we start at the kind of the bottom of this this influence pyramid, which is, again, it's building relationships. If I come in and tell you you're gonna help me with this project, whether you like it or not, Maybe I have authority over you, and maybe you have to do it. And if you're gonna come in and do it, do you think I'm gonna get your best work?
Lisa:Are you gonna be engaged? Are you are you really gonna care about your performance on it? I mean, some people can kind of rise above some of that more than others, and they'll find some joy in what they're doing. But they're they're still in spite doing it because they, you know, have to, not because they want to. And so it's really more thinking, again, back to the, like, getting to the bottom of things is, like, if we build this relationship and we have this strong base for the relationship, then if I say, hey.
Lisa:I need your help with something, it it it's a whole different conversation to begin with. Right? And so it's not just based it's not, like, based on love, but it is. It's based on respect more, I think, is the word I use.
Derek:Yeah. And I For no right or wrong. I think that word, the the word respect means a lot, and I don't think, just between us, that you can really respect someone, without ending up loving them. But it's easier in the business context to talk about respect, because respect, I think, is is seeing someone else's value, seeing, that their needs are valid. How else would you, would how else would you talk about respect in in the mindset you're talking about?
Lisa:Yeah. And I think it's it's back to, I mean, you talked about this just a little bit, but like we all have our own free will. Right? So then I need to to understand that you're gonna have a different perspective, a different way of looking at things, different experiences that have happened, different different strengths, different weaknesses than myself or or someone else that I'm working with. And so, again, I think it's it's really kinda getting to the heart of understanding and knowing having that relationship with someone that that is where I get to that place of of having a mutual respect.
Lisa:But, I mean, that's still also a decision. And that's where it's like, if I'm in the box, and I need to be seen as better than you, or I think I deserve a promotion and you don't, but I'm gonna use you as a vehicle to help me get there. Like that is a completely different relationship. Then one built on respect. And and again, this concept of being outside of the box and and and I'll just say, I mean, our Rangers work doesn't talk a whole ton about respect.
Lisa:That's not the the premise of it. It's really more of this kind of bigger concept around getting outside of the box and having this outward mindset.
Derek:Right. And seeing other people as people. Like, that's the biggest ways to describe. I think one of the things you're you're talking about is the idea that if all of our human relationships, particularly an organization that's supposed to be accomplishing a common purpose, if all of those are transactional, that's a lot of transactions to try and negotiate and keep on top of. And it's, that's exhausting and, suboptimal.
Derek:And, everyone can feel like they got the bad end of a deal in a transaction, and the next one's harder. And I've certainly been in situations where but it seems like it's let's make a deal all over the place all the time, or the interest of other people aren't even even taken into account, and there's more sort of autocratic leadership as well.
Lisa:Well and, you know, and to that point too is I think when you're when you're in that mode and that mindset, you're usually telling people what you think they wanna hear to get what you want from them, which basically ends up being a lie. Right? And so then you've got a lot of lies to try to remember.
Derek:Right.
Lisa:Right? And and that's hard that's hard, to keep up that facade, and it eventually catches up with you.
Derek:So, I think we're we're coming up on time if you can believe it. And I I think our, one thing we we've established in the last part of this conversation here is that it's ineffective. It's hard, you got to keep a lot of things straight, to treat other people as objects to get what you want. It's not good for other people. It's not good for us.
Derek:It's not good for organizations. What What I'd like to do, if you are willing, is to get back together again, and let's talk about what it's like to build in that that outward mindset in an organization. And I because it's that sounds like a lot of work too, but it seems like a different kind of hard work.
Lisa:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. We'd love to do that.
Derek:Well, if so if you're if you're willing, let's kind of leave this as a cliffhanger. We've established that the the way not to do it is hard, and, let's get back together and talk about another way of looking at it. And and one of the things I really love about the way you describe it is, you can change that mindset. That's a very definite thing. It's a decision that you make, and that change in mindset can change everything.
Derek:Would you say that's the case?
Lisa:Exactly. Yep.
Derek:Alright. Well, thanks very much, Lisa, for being on the podcast today. If people are interested in your work and the work of your organization, how what's the best way to find them? What also, what's the best way to find you?
Lisa:Alright. Well, Arbinger so it's Arbinger.com. It's arbinger. So, that is where to find our work. Our books are on the site.
Lisa:And full disclosure, I'm in the process of rebranding and redoing that whole website, but it's still all on there.
Derek:Alright. And that's your and that's your baby. That's for your job. Okay.
Lisa:Wait. Well, it's not now, but it will be.
Derek:It will be. Okay.
Lisa:Yes. Right now, it's adopted, but I'll make it mine.
Derek:Make it legal. Okay.
Lisa:And then LinkedIn is the best place to find me. It's just linkedin backslash lisa sharapada.
Derek:Lisa sharapata. It's, there's only one of them, and I found you, so other people can too. So, Essential Dynamics podcast is brought to you by Unconstrained, my consultancy. We help leaders work through their trickiest opportunities, and you can find us at getunconstrained.com. Please, if you're enjoying this at all, like, share, subscribe, join the conversation, and, and keep these ideas moving.
Derek:So thanks, Lisa, and also Brynn Griffiths. Thanks for helping the studio. I'm Derek Hudson. Until next time, consider your quest.