Ep 11: Exotic Birds with Dr Neil Forbes

Show Notes

Join us this week when we sit down with Dr Neil Forbes, an exotic animal specialist who is passionate about the welfare of vultures. Neil does lots of voluntary work to provide them with safety and security for their future. 

In this episode, we discuss Neils work with Vultures and the general welfare of caged birds. For more information on how you can support the fantastic work Neil Forbes does, please visit: 

http://vulturealliance.org/

https://vulpro.com/

https://www.icbp.org/

Don't forget, if you enjoy the show please head over to www.kickstarter.com/projects/veterinaryramblings/veterinary-ramblings-podcast-fundraiser to show your support and see our fantastic new merch!

Support the show ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

What is Veterinary Ramblings?

Tired of boring, clinical veterinary podcasts? Join Veterinarian Dr Julian Hoad & Anaesthetic Expert Mike Brampton, as they interview inspirational guests each week who are related to the veterinary world. Veterinary Ramblings is like going for a drink with your favourite work colleagues after a long day - we’ll make you laugh, inspire you and perhaps teach you something new!

Mike Brampton: Hello, Julian.

Julian Hoad: Hello there, Mike,
how are you?

Mike Brampton: I'm Excellent.
Thank you very much. I'd like to

welcome everybody to the unth

Julian Hoad: next series! Is it
season two?

Mike Brampton: Season two,
Episode Three of Veterinary

Ramblings!

Julian Hoad: Episode two is it
really?

Mike Brampton: Episode Three of
Veterinary Ramblings, Yeah yeah

yeah, series 2 episode three.

Julian Hoad: Great.

Mike Brampton: So now we know
what we're doing. We'd better,

we'd better to do it properly,
haven't we? So

Julian Hoad: We're thoroughly
professional now, we've got a

whole season under our belts
haven't we.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, absolutely.
So Hello, everybody, and welcome

to Veterinary Ramblings. My name
is Mike Brampton.

Julian Hoad: And my name is
Julian Hoad.

Mike Brampton: That was pretty
professional actually.

Julian Hoad: It sounded
professional. I thought you were

great Mike.

Mike Brampton: Do you realise
the average age of our audience

has gone up to nine years old
now.

Julian Hoad: Has it really? Bit
Worrying isn't it?

Mike Brampton: Perhaps we should
stop doing the children's show?

Julian Hoad: We should be, we
should be entertainers shouldn't

we, childrens entertainers

Mike Brampton: Yeah, yeah, I see
you've got your gin tonight.

I've got mine.

Julian Hoad: No kids this is
lemonade, Uncle Mike's also got

a glass of lemonade. And today,
we're going to be talking about

how ethanol is very bad for you
when you're grown up. You should

never ever have it. Look, this
is why.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, stay tuned.
We'll show you why Ethanol, aka

alcohol or aka gin, is really
bad for you. Hi I'm Mike Brampton

Julian Hoad: And my name is
Julian Hoad.

Mike Brampton: Welcome to
Veterinary Ramblings. Listen,

we've got a great show lined up
tonight, I think, fabulous

guest, tell us about our guest
Julian.

Julian Hoad: Well, I do actually
know about our guest because he

is Neil Forbes, who wears many
hats although not as sleek as

yours actually, Mike. He is an
exotics expert specialising in

birds. And he is past president
I believe of the European

Exotics Panel. He holds
specialisms in, in birds from

the Royal College of Veterinary
Surgeons and from the European

board. He's also very heavily
involved these days in

antimicrobial resistance.

Mike Brampton: What Okay, well,
let's get him in. I I remember

meeting Neil many, many years
ago, and he sent me on quite a

mission. Maybe we'll share that.
Let's get Neil Forbes in. Let's

get him in.

Julian Hoad: You need to press
the button I think

Neil Forbes: Good Evening Mike,
how are you?

Mike Brampton: I'm Excellent.
Thank you, yourself?

Neil Forbes: Very, very good
indeed. Evening, Julian.

Julian Hoad: Good evening, Neil.
Good to see you.

Neil Forbes: And you too.

Julian Hoad: Thanks for, Thanks
for joining us tonight.

Neil Forbes: It's a pleasure.
It's lovely to be here. And

you've got a top on that's
nearly nearly but not, not

really as nice as mine.

Julian Hoad: That'll be cut out,
that'll be fine.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, yeah, don't
do this at home.Yeah, what we

ought to say is that, if
something does go awry with and

we sort of go 'Yeah, and cut'
and it just gets cut out

Neil Forbes: and then they cut
that piece and put it in

specially.

Julian Hoad: Yes, yes.

Neil Forbes: Can I just tell you
a story about that situation.

Okay. So there was a television
programme called pets behaving

badly. And whenever these sorts
of things happen, the producers

or their researchers get on the
phone to all sorts of veterinary

surgeons and say, 'Oh, do you
know of a client who you know,

has got a pet that would work
for this'. And in this

particular case, I had a client
with a little parrot. And this

parrot was basically imprinted
on the owner and basically

wanted to breed with the owner.
He was hand-rid bird . Okay, so

you get you get the picture. So
lots of bad behaviour. And

anyway, it all sort of worked
out well. So the television crew

went to her house. And this was
a middle aged spinster, you

know, pillar of the local church
and all that sort of thing. And

they filmed all morning, and
then they broke for lunch. And

during the lunch break, the
little parrot flew over and did

his normal thing which is
masturbating on the owners head.

And of course, the cameraman
caught it. And this poor lady

was absolutely devastated
because the only thing they

showed of her in the real
programme when it came was this

little clip and you imagine. I
mean, she was distraught,

understandably so.

Julian Hoad: For, for people who
are not watching this, but

listening on audio, you might
have heard that wonderful story

but you missed the expression on
both of our faces, as we've got

a big fit of the giggles. So
birds, birds, Neil?

Mike Brampton: Birds, talk to us
about birds because you and I

met probably..

Julian Hoad: bout 198

Mike Brampton: And I was working
on a project trying to make a

pulse oximeter work in birds.

Neil Forbes: Yep.

Mike Brampton: You very kindly
gave me a whole range of

different birds to use my
physiological skills to dissect

and work out where the major
blood vessels were on.

Neil Forbes: Yep. Yep.

Mike Brampton: Because obviously
a swan. Yes, essentially, that

the (Inaudible) is the same

Neil Forbes: Sure. Sure.

Mike Brampton: A swan has got a
long neck and a parrot has got a

very short neck. So if I'm going
to measure, if we're if we're

going to develop and measure
something between the two, then

that's a real challenge.

Neil Forbes: And it's one of the
things a lot of people forget,

you know, they think normal
veterinary practice, cats, dogs,

or farm animals or horses. Oh,
there's just birds. And they

forget that there's over 9000
different species and they come

in different sizes. They eat
different things, they locomote

in different ways. And yes,
their anatomy and physiology

does vary tremendously.

Mike Brampton: I found that
fasinating

Julian Hoad: and of course
parrots have no gallbladder do

they?

Neil Forbes: Sorry, who didn't?

Julian Hoad: parrots?

Neil Forbes: Indeed they don't.

Mike Brampton: There we go. 101
I did not know that parrots have

no gallbladder

Julian Hoad: Mm hmm. So if
you're if you're trying to

ultrasound a parrot and you
think 'Oh God, I can't find the

gallbladder. That's fine. That's
normal.

Mike Brampton: That's good. So
if you do find a gallbladder in

a parrot?

Julian Hoad: That's a bad thing.
Either it's not a parrot. Or you

found something other than a
gallbladder.

Neil Forbes: You know, I mean,
quite seriously speaking,

whether you're using a drug in a
different species, you're doing

a surgery in different species,
no one for one moment would

think that a cat or a dog would
be the same or a horse or a cow

would be the same. So actually,
why should a chicken and a

pigeon be the same? They are
different species

Julian Hoad: And they do have
very different drug tolerances

don't they

Neil Forbes: Absolutely, yeah,
yeah.

Mike Brampton: Do you do you
actually still see clients Neil,

is that-

Neil Forbes: Rarely, rarely.
Yeah. So I you know, I left

Great Western Exotics in Swindon
in 2017. And then since then, I

had some sort of family stuff to
sort out and then I've just been

doing consultancy work and some
Zoo inspections, some training,

some lecturing, some expert
witness work, not very much. And

some welfare inspections, so pet
shops, and, and so on. And then

of course, I'm majourly involved
in my my voluntary vulture work.

Julian Hoad: Now, I'm, there are
three things I really want to

chat to you tonight about. And
and one of them is the vulture

work. The other is is your
antimicrobial work. And the

other thing is about welfare of
caged birds, because that's

really close to my heart. But I
didn't know how we're going to

cram them all in. We may be here
till the early morning.

Neil Forbes: Which should we
start, shall we start on the the

easiest one, which is probably
the welfare of birds in cages?

Julian Hoad: Could we do that?
Because we had Matt Rendle on

recently, talking about people
buying exotic animals without

the faintest idea of how to look
after them. Now, with birds,

there's an even bigger problem,
because I think birds suffer

mentally. Hugely. Absolutely.

Neil Forbes: Yeah. Now, I'm
completely with you there and

you know, obviously, I'm, I'm
someone who spent 35 years of a

career working predominantly
with birds. And I can honestly

say that my view and my
understanding and belief about

it all has varied over that
period of time. But I think it's

very true to say that just
because people have kept parrots

in cages by themselves for 300
years does not make it right. If

he, the more time you spend
studying and looking into

behavioural problems in
particular feather plucking in

in parrots, the more you
appreciate that a bird plucks

because it is failing to cope
with some aspect of its

husbandry or management. And
yes, you can do all sorts of

health screens for this than the
other. But the fundamental

underlying problem is, this is a
gregarious bird that should be

flying free in the wild, and
taking it and shoving it by

itself, particularly, it's been
hand reared. So it's completely

mentally screwed up, shoving it
in a single cage, and you become

that family becomes that birds,
surrogate family. And then you

go out to work or to school and
the bird sits in a cage by

itself for six or eight hours a
day, and they expect it to grow

up normally. You know, it's like
taking, I mean, if you think

about a parrot, it's like a in
terms of mental ability is about

like a three year old child.
Would you put a three year old

child in a cot in an empty
bedroom and leave for eight

hours a day? and expect it to
grow up? Normally? No course you

wouldn't.

Mike Brampton: I realised I was
nodding then. And you were

saying, would you put a three
year old?

Julian Hoad: Mike would
obviously.

Neil Forbes: Of course. Of
course he would.

Mike Brampton: The parrot is a
flock bird, isn't it?

Neil Forbes: Absolutely.
Absolutely. Flock.

Mike Brampton: So it's, it's got
his own immediate family unit.

Neil Forbes: Yep. Yep.

Mike Brampton: But then that
family unit is part of

Neil Forbes: part of a big flock

Mike Brampton: A major flock?
Yeah,

Neil Forbes: Yep. And the normal
parrot spends 50% of the day

flying to and from feeding. It's
spends 30% of the day playing

with other members of the flock,
and 20% eating. And it spends

about 10% of the day resting and
not doing very much. So you look

at your pet bird, you say? Okay,
so how long does it take to fly

anywhere? Zero. How long does it
take to eat anything? Well, it's

in the bowl in front of him, you
know, so probably maybe 20

minutes in the day. And how long
has he spent with have actually

having companionship and
stimulation from the family?

Half an hour if he's lucky. So
what's he going to do? He's he's

going to develop behavioural
problems, he's going to get

mentally screwed up and have a
lousy time. So when I say it's

the simple one, it is the simple
one in terms of it is, to my

mind, absolutely wrong. There
are already some European

countries where keeping a single
bird in a cage is illegal. And I

think that's absolutely
appropriate.

Mike Brampton: Sorry, which
countries are those?

Neil Forbes: It may well be
Sweden, it could be Belgium as

well.

Mike Brampton: Yeah.

Neil Forbes: But I'm not I'm not
sure. But there is a big, big

movement about the keeping of
exotic pets as pets in the first

place. And Matt obviously
touched on it. And the the

European government, the EU
government, parliament, and the

Federation of veterinarians of
Europe are both completely

opposed to it. And in fact, I'm
trying to think how many years

ago it would have been probably
10 years ago now. I, at the

time, when I was president of
the European College of

zoological medicine, I had to go
and make a presentation to the

European Parliament about it.
And the basic, you know,

everyone, in principle, people
know how to look after a cat or

a dog. When it comes to exotic
animals, they simply don't. Now,

there has been a very sensible
proportionate solution put

forward, which is supported by
the British Veterinary

Zoological Society and the
British Veterinary Association,

which is basically that you
divide animals in terms of how

difficult it is to keep them and
you make training mandatory. So

basically, someone could go
online, they do a certain amount

of training, and then yes, they
can get themselves a budgerigar.

And when they want to African
grey parent, they have to do

some more when they want to
macore or let's say a lizard or

a snake, you got to do more. So
basically, in that way, because

an awful lot of people would
like to ban the keeping of

European pets, that actually
won't work, it will just push it

underground, which will then
mean when they get sick, they

don't get treated. They get no
advice from the veterinary

profession. One of their
criticisms and I have to say, is

a lot of justification. One of
the criticisms is, if they go to

a vet, they typically don't get
told anything very useful,

because most vets know nothing
about exotic pets. And that's

because it doesn't get taught at
university but and that's where

we should advise exotic animal
owners to go to exotic vets.

Anyway, that's another subject.
So what we were trying to do was

to actually suggest that no one
has exotic pets, unless they

have training. They do training
and a little bit of training for

a simple animal, a lot more
training for a more complex

animal and ones that really
shouldn't be kept at all, you

know, killer whale or whatever,
obviously are completely off off

the grid. Now there are some
European countries who have gone

the other way. They have what
called a positive list, which

means they have a list of maybe
a dozen exotic animals, which

you are allowed to keep, and
nothing else you are allowed to

keep. Some countries go forward
to the negative list. In other

words, these are the ones you
can't, but everything else you

can, whereas BVA, beavers at s
have gone along the line of,

there are some of you definitely
can't. But all of them, you have

to you should have to undergo
some training in order to be

able to keep it and step it up
and step it up, step it up. Now,

when I when I spoke to the EU
parliament, I put this

particular policy forward. And
they said, Okay, well, you've

got 10 years to get it in place,
and sort the problem out,

because if it hasn't happened
after that time, we're going to

ban it. And that was 10 years
ago.

Julian Hoad: So they're going to
ban the...

Neil Forbes: Well, they would
like to I mean, it's true, it's

true to say that some countries,
Netherlands is one and Belgium

is certainly another and Sweden
is another where quite a lot has

been done. Whether it's been
done, you know, in a sympathetic

way is debatable. And suddenly,
then we were trying to get to a

point where actually people
like, so they were the

specialist and exotic animal
medicine across Europe, get them

to actually put forward a
solution that would suit every

country in Europe, because it
doesn't make any sense at all,

for one country that's next to
another country to have totally

different rules on what you can
keep and how you can keep and

how you can buy it and how you
can sell it. So it's a

nightmare. It does need to be
sorted out. And one has to say

there are a lot of animals that
are suffering as a result of

poor knowledge. I mean, give you
a strange statistic, the animal

that is most commonly found in a
bedroom, is kept in a bedroom,

is a reptile, typically, because
they're kept by a teenager. And

the parents don't actually want
it. So the teenager keeps it in

the bedroom. A you know, start
off with the premise every

reptile has salmonella, unless
proven otherwise. Actually,

having it in the bedroom is not
a smart place for it to be. The

parents don't know what's going
on with it.

Julian Hoad: I guess they could
be feeding their dog raw food as

well, couldn't they? So they'll
be they'll be similar

downstairs. So that's all right.

Neil Forbes: No, but you know,
it's it's, it's a crazy, crazy

situation. And I have to say as
an exotic animal. As someone

who's worked in head of a
referral, exotic animal service

for 15 years, 20 years. And a
specialist in avian medicine, I

you know, I will be completely
in favour of a complete overhaul

of the keeping of exotic
animals, for the better for the

improvement of the welfare, and
also human safety. But primarily

the welfare of the animals. And
to give you another crazy

statistic, if you look at the
data now on importation of

animals into the UK for sale to
the the pet trade 95% of it is

fish. Some of that, some of them
are captive bred, but an awful

lot of them are wild caught.

Mike Brampton: Yeah.

Neil Forbes: Now have we not
learned enough about taking

mammals from the wild, reptiles
from the wild, birds from the

wild? You know, one of the few
areas that has not yet been

completely fished out is the
seas?

Julian Hoad: Yeah.

Neil Forbes: And you know, okay,
I know there are those people

who will argue that there are
local communities who are

actually earning a living,
they're feeding their family

based on farming of fish for the
pet trade. And where they are

actually properly captured
farming, I don't have a problem.

But the reality is, you know,

Julian Hoad: It doesn't make it
right though, does it?

Neil Forbes: It doesn't make it
right. I mean, why should you

take a little tiny fish and fly
it from one end of the world to

the other end of the world for
someone to get joy sitting in a

sitting room in the UK? That
does to me, that does not make

sense at all. Yeah. So in I
think there are some things that

really need to be sorted out.
And importation of wild caught

fishes is one that I think is
morally incorrect in this day

and age.

Julian Hoad: I think I couldn't
agree more with you, Neil.

Actually, I go even further than
that, to say that I think people

should take an exam in order to
look after rabbits, and guinea

pigs. I mentioned Sweden earlier
because Sweden has a ban on

keeping single guinea pigs.
Yeah, it's legal to keep one

guinea pig. And there are so
many guinea pigs and rabbits

that I see as a general
practitioner, that I see through

reasons of neglect.

Neil Forbes: Yep, yep.

Julian Hoad: And as soon as you
say that to the owners, you lose

them, you lose their attention.
So you have to say 'Oh, you,ve

got a lovely little pet, how are
you? Fantastic. And what I would

do is this instead' as
mollycoddle them when what I

really want to say is you utter
bastard, why would you decide to

keep this without looking into
what it needs.

Neil Forbes: Yeah, yeah. And
rabbits rabbits are a good

example. You know, obviously a
common pet nowadays. And, you

know, we're thrilled that the
rabbit is now generally

speaking, a house rabbit is not
in a Hutch at the bottom of the

garden being totally ignored or
looked after by the children.

But there are other problems
that come in. And if you look at

the problems that rabbits have,
particularly dental problems,

you know, so much of that is
down to nutrition. 99% of

nutrition, maybe a little bit of
lack of daylight as well, but

you know, and a lot of their gut
problems, again, lack of fibre,

too much carbohydrate, too much
protein in the diet. So, you

know, there's Yes, you're
absolutely right. And and if we

compare that with the cat and
the dog, then there are few cats

and dogs that come in with
basic, they've been fed the

wrong food, or in the wrong way.
And you know, there are other

problems with rabbits as well, so

Julian Hoad: There are obesity
problems in dogs and cats. Which

I guess is a different thing.
There are obesity problems in

humans.

Neil Forbes: Yeah.

Julian Hoad: And you only need
to put the camera down to see

that here. But yeah, that's a
that's a different form of

neglect, I think, the primary
neglect is, is with not knowing

the faintest thing about the
species your keeping. And

that's, that's what gets to me,
I think, as you say

Neil Forbes: And I think that,
you know, I'm there a number of

factors, pet shops, are obliged
to provide information on

correct husbandry at the point
of sale. Historically, they

would just have books for sale.
And of course, by the time

someone's buying a rabbit,
they're not going to buy the

book. Nowadays, they have to be
given a booklet to take home

with some information. And and I
would dearly love it, I was b

sy giving a webinar on rab
it medicine just the other night

with Molly Varga. And, and I, i
you say, Well, where's the pro

lem? If the shops aren't goi
g to give them any better advice

The next port of call should b
the veterinary profession?

Julian Hoad: Yes.

Neil Forbes: So how many vets
were, at that time of the first

consultation, how, how many vets
actually sit down and talk about

proper nutrition, dental care,
play strike prevention,

management of their coats, their
ears, etc, etc. And to do that

properly, it's a minimum of half
an hour. And the answer is

they're not, unless you go to an
exotic practice where, you know,

usually a console period will be
half an hour because they will

be trying to do it properly. But
in a general practice, they are

not going to spend half an hour.
And with the best will in the

world, the majority of vets and
nurses won't actually know and I

just said the majority, there
are some very, very good rabbit

aware practices. And of course,
the house rabbit association is

now giving now gold rabbit
status to practice which is

wonderful. So they're trying to
encourage better but improved

rabbit medicine and care. But
it's not as good as it should

be. That's for sure.

Julian Hoad: It's not. And the
other problem, the other side of

that coin is, they can't get
advice from the vets if they

don't go to the vets in the
first place.

Neil Forbes: Absolutely.

Julian Hoad: And very few
rabbits and guinea pigs and any

other exotic animals are sold
with the advice take this to

your vet.

Neil Forbes: Yeah.

Julian Hoad: Within within the
first week of ownership and get

advice on this animals husbandry
and check so there's a guy down

the road actually, very good
friend of mine, that keeps

rabbits and keeps them
perfectly, absolutely wonderful

owner. He's got some outside
runs. He's got some inside, some

house rabbits, he keeps them
really well and he rescues

rabbits that have been neglected
and brings a rabbit to me once a

month or so, new rabbits
obviously, with another sob

story. Last week, a three year
old rabbit who was the pet a six

year old girl and had not been
fed anything other than the

variety mix.

Neil Forbes: Yes, disaster,
disaster.

Julian Hoad: yeah. I can't do
anything but give it a fairly

poor prognosis. I see that we're
going to be removing some teeth,

we're going to be having it in
for dental every three to four

weeks. If that's even enoug
, I don't know

Neil Forbes: but then, you know,
as a professional I mean, you

know, having worked in an exotic
referral service, I can say that

we would regularly be seeing
female entire rabbits with

uterine adenocarcinoma. And
okay, the latest of the latest

data is that probably its not as
common as it was once thought.

So the old data was that 50% of
three year old female rabbits

would have uterine
adenocarcinoma. And it's it's

not that bad. But when you

Mike Brampton: But it's still
around 30%?

Neil Forbes: Yeah, it's still a
very, very high level. And and

when you talk to the owner, you
know, they arrive and this

rabbits got hematuria. And you
have a quick feel of its

abdomen, and you feel this
warmer lump in its uterine area.

And you said, well, you know,
were you never given any advice

to have it spayed? And the
answer comes back. 'Oh, well, we

discussed it with the vet and
they said the risk of giving a

rabbit an anaesthetic was
greater than the risk of it

having uterine adenocarcinoma,
so it wasn't spayed'

Julian Hoad: wheras their advice
should be as a practice, we're

not comfortable with doing that,
however,

Neil Forbes: Exactly, exactly

Julian Hoad: if you take it to
this practice down the road, are

equipped to do it. It's a ver
safe procedure.

Neil Forbes: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So I mean, I mean, just to cover

that one off, the data is the
anesthetic mortality level is 12

times higher than normal.

Mike Brampton: Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Forbes: And only 38% of
rabbits having a GA in the UK,

have their airway maintained.
That's either an ET tube or Vgel.

Mike Brampton: That's outrageous.

Neil Forbes: It is absolutely
outrageous. It is, it is just

ignorance, straightforward
ignorance. And, you know, vet's

who, you know, you you, you sign
your RCVS charter and you say,

you're going to be a good
person, and you're going to look

after the welfare of your
patients,

Julian Hoad: Above all, do no
harm.

Neil Forbes: Absolutely. And and
you're absolutely right, Julian,

that if you are not in a
practice where you cannot

provide a safe anaesthetic and
spay the rabbit, send it

somewhere else. And I can
honestly say, as a clinical

service, giving anaesthetics to
rabbits, you know, 3/4/5, every

day, our mortality level was
very, very, very low. And I

can't honestly think you know,
probably in all the time two or

three rabbits it, it will be no
greater than it would be for a

cat or a dog. And that's, and
you know, one of the take home

messages is what you do
regularly, you tend to be fairly

good at. Yeah.

Julian Hoad: Thanks for that. I
really, really appreciate your

view on that.

Neil Forbes: So anyway, so
that's the first one. Now you

want to talk about vultures and
what was the other one?

Mike Brampton: Hang on! I want
to talk about gin.

Julian Hoad: Mike, you're gonna
go off and show us how to do a

gin?

Mike Brampton: I gonna go off
and show you how to make a

proper gin.

Julian Hoad: Great.

Neil Forbes: Great. We got rid
of him. Julian. What shall we

talk about now?

Mike Brampton: Tonight, I'm
gonna make you up a really

refreshing summer gin. Malfy
pink grapefruit. So, as usual,

before we start, I'm going to
prepare the glass. Just zesting

off some grapefruit and Malfy
say that there grapefruits are

sunrippened Sicilian pink
grapefruit. I can't guarantee

that this is a Sicilian ripened
pink grapefruit. In with the

trademark meteorite as Julian
calls it, a big chunk of ice. So

tonight, we're just gonna go for
a straightforward double

measure. Oh dear. Oh, that's
sad. Oh, dear. Oh, well. What

that means is we can save on the
tonic water because we won't

need that much in there. Here we
go. Let's watch these bubbles go

again.
Sparkling, refreshing, aerating

into the bottom of the glass.
There we go. Malfy pink,

grapefruit gin, and fevertree
diet tonic. Cheers.

Julian Hoad: Shall we move on to
vultures?

Neil Forbes: Let's, Let's do
that. Yes. Yeah, they are just

gorgeous. People think they're
ugly. They're really, really

not. They are incredible, I
think they're incredibly

attractive. But the important
thing to understand, I mean,

firstly, vultures are the most
endangered of birds in the

world. And they are incredibly
important.

Julian Hoad: I didn't know that
at all, did you Mike?

Mike Brampton: What's that?

Neil Forbes: As a total group,
the vulture, the vulture group

are more threatened globally
than any other group of birds.

Julian Hoad: So why should that
be?

Neil Forbes: Well, firstly, let
me tell you the benefits of

vultures so for example, on the
Masai Mara,

Julian Hoad: Can i just sort of
interject that I did have one

once I don't know whether I
should admit this, but I had I

had I had an HMV voucher. 20
quid.

Neil Forbes: Hmm. HMV voucher,

Mike Brampton: that's a voucher.

Neil Forbes: Okay. So So first
thing to explain is, for

example, on the Masai Mara 75%
of fallen stock is consumed by

vultures. Okay, so they serve a
very, very useful purpose. They

are described as nature's
cleanup crew. They have the

ability to eat food that's
contaminated with anthrax with

salmonella, e. coli, etc, etc.
And they neutralise it and poop

out things that aren't
dangerous. Okay, so they're

really, really important. Now,
in terms of massive vulture

problems - first let's talk
about vultures in Asia - during

the late 70s and the 80s, there
was a massive decline of

vultures in Asia, they lost
literally 99.9% of the total

population. And yeah, 99% and
there's a hundreds of thousands

of vultures died. And this was
basically down to the you know,

got all the researchers in there
did some research and they found

that it was due to the use of a
human and veterinary

nonsteroidal anti inflammatory
called diclofenac. And if cattle

carcasses or human carcasses are
medicated with this nonsteroidal

before death, and then the
carcass is eaten by vultures

afterwards. And just before
anyone thinks this is strange,

the Parsi sect in India
historically their their method

of disposal of their bodies is
to strap the carcasses in a

tower and they're eaten by
vultures so you know, it is

human carcasses and -

Mike Brampton: that's the type
of sky burial isn't it? sky

burial in areas like Tibet is
where the body is taken to the

top of the mountain. And then
the funeral director will enable

the birds to dispose of body.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's

traditional sky burial. Okay,

Neil Forbes: so So anyway, so
what we're getting at is 99.9%

of in of Asia's vultures died
due to like Claire phonic

poisoning them in the late 70s
and 80s. Okay, now, thankfully,

Julian Hoad: Is that to do with
gastric ulceration or liver,

Neil Forbes: kidney, kidney
failure. Yeah, yeah. That

situation- No, no, you can carry
on drinking Mike. Good, you may

have to drink more because of
the with the renal failure, but

you can carry on. Anyway, back
back to the serious matter. All

these vultures died, thankfully
due to a whole load of people

getting together forming an
organisation called SAVE, which

has saved Asian vultures from
extinction. And they worked so

that they found out the problem
they worked with the politicians

and generally speaking have got
like diclofenac removed from the

food chain, it's not completely
effective, but but in a greater

part it is. And then they've
taken birds into captivity.

They've been doing a captive
breeding programme, and they've

been releasing birds back to the
wild. And it is, you know,

slowly bit by bit. It's all
improving. Okay, so let's Park

Asia for a moment and move on to
Africa. Africa is a much sorry a

tale, because Africa's vulture
population has been going down

for 50 years has been going on a
very, very long time. And we

have lost 99% of the vultures in
Africa. Okay. Now, there are 11

species of vulture in Africa.
And of those seven are either

critically endangered or
endangered. For them, there are

less than 5000 individuals left
in the wild. That means for each

of those four species, they are
more endangered than a black

rhinoceros. Okay, and two of
them, the white had evolved

Julian Hoad: Am i right in
thinking the critical number is

2000 still for bird populations?
In terms of critical,

it will vary from species to
species,

Mike Brampton: depending on the
number of eggs.

Neil Forbes: Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. So so basically two

of those species, hooded
vultures and Whitehead vultures

are predicted to become extinct
in the next five years. Now, if

we so let's just touch on why
population losses is a problem

for vultures. And as Mike
internated there, basically

okay. It varies between species.
But in general term vultures are

not going to mature until
they're four to six years old.

They way, they lay one egg a
year, and they rear one chick

every other year, so so they are
not fecund, which means that if

they are losing numbers, then it
really hits them very, very

hard. And that's the point where
the total number left, it would

be much more critical with a
vulture than it would be with a

thing else. Then let's move on
to think about we know Asia, it

was a it was a drug, it was one
thing, remove it, sorted. Okay,

let's move on to Africa. The
there is published data, but the

actual reality varies from one
area to another. So taking it

bit by bit, the published data
says that 9% of cases in South

Africa are due to electricity,
pylons, and and electricity

cables. Now I had a meeting with
Eskom and they admitted their

own data tells us that 34% of
all vulture losses are due to

electricity power cables. Okay.
34%. Right. poisoning. And

there's two forms of poison
theres accidental poisoning,

which is you can kind of
sympathise. This is the

subsistence farmer who's trying
to control lion hyena and

jackal. So they don't come and
take his goats and his sheep and

his cattle, okay. And if he
loses stock, his his family are

going to go hungry, and you can
understand that. But basically,

he puts poison out and then one
way or another the vulture gets

hold of it and they die. But if
you look at the data, the

numbers of vultures dying due to
that has remained pretty

constant and relatively low for
a long, long time. The big

problem is malicious poisoning.
Now, malicious poisoning is is

twofold. One, we thought
initially, it was predominantly

elephant poachers. Now the issue
is, if you shoot an elephant, it

then takes you three plus hours
to take the tusks out. by which

time the vultures are circling,
telling the Rangers there's a

carcass. So the poachers
learned, if the vultures in the

area they were more likely to
get caught. So let's poison the

vultures. So they would either
poison a carcass they left

behind, or poison a water source.

Mike Brampton: Yeah

Neil Forbes: To try and kill off
the vultures. And then we found

out there was another way it was
happening. And this was the

rhino poaching. Now
traditionally, Rhino poaching

was people shooting rhinos. But
then they realised that some of

the anti Rhino poaching teams
were using ballistic microphones

to triangulate, to pinpoint
where a ballistic was left off.

And in some parts, it was
incredibly accurate, accurate,

accurate and effective. I
remember talking to some of the

rhino protection team in
Pilanesberg National Park, which

is the fourth largest park in
South Africa. And these in this

particular year, they had had a
this was some while ago, because

sadly, it's got worse since
they'd had eight Rhino poaching

incidents in the year. But in
six of the eight, they arrived

before the poachers had got the
horn off. Now that was really

impressive. Absolutely. So what
the poachers then took to doing

was getting either cabbage or
carrot and adding a poison to

it, feeding it to the rhino, and
then they walk behind the rhino

to the rhino fell over. Then
they take the horn off, so there

was no gun blast. Okay, but
guess what? The Rhino carcass is

poisoned. The vultures come to
eat the rhino carcass, they will

die. Okay, so let's ask
ourselves, how many vultures die

as a result of each poisoning
incidents? Now, if you'd asked

me that question three, four
months ago, I would have said

well, it can be anywhere between
50 and 600. In April this year,

Julian Hoad: per carcass?

Neil Forbes: Per carcass per
carcass, yeah. Right. Do the

sums, do the sums. And the
reality is you don't need very

many poisoning incidents to wipe
out thousands of vultures in the

Yeah, in April this year, we had
the largest so far poisoning

year.
instance in Guinea Bissau, where

more than 2000 hooded vultures
died in one poisoning incidents,

more than 2000 Okay, Now bear in
mind there is somewhere around

three to three and a half
thousand hooded vultures at all.

Julian Hoad: So over half the
population

Neil Forbes: Over the half the
population when and and the

reason why hooded vultures are
particularly susceptible to, to

persecution, and it is
anticipated they will become

extinct is because they are one
of the species that is

particularly desirable for black
magic. And 29% of all vultures

that die on killed for their
body parts to be used in black

magic. Now, you say well, why,
and then you ask the question.

So-

Julian Hoad: It's a rotten
chocolate anyway, isn't it?

Neil Forbes: There are other
chocolates. Yeah, no. If you ask

if you ask the questions, okay,
if you are a local African

person and you get sick, where
do you go? And the answer is 80%

of people still go to a witch
doctor. Even though it costs

them more than going to a
Western doctor, because their

family have done it for
generation after generation

generation and they have faith
in it. Yeah, placebo effects and

all that. Okay. So the problem
we have in Africa, we have

accidental poisoning. We have
malicious poisening, and we have

power cables. And we have Mati.
Those are the four causes but

you look at them. How many of
those Can we turn around in the

short term? Well, we can battle
with the power cable people. But

you take South Africa as an
example, Eskcom. It's a

government owned company. The
company is completely bankrupt.

They, you know, terrible,
terrible financial problems. The

government is not much better
off and particularly with whats

going on, you know, are they
actually going to spend money on

making the pylons properly safe?
And putting scarers on the

cable? No, they're not. I had a
meeting. I had a meeting with

them a couple of years ago with
with Eskom. So I'd done my

homework before I went in, I
thought to myself, you know

what, in this day of drones,
there has to be a way there has

to be a solution. So I went home
did my homework, I found a

company in Slovakia that had
developed a military grade drone

with a Y shape on the top of it,
that was actually flew up with

the Y clicked onto the cable.
And they could put 250 scarers.

These are like CD ROMs on the
cables so that the bird sees

them and don't hit the cables.
They put 250 on a day. I so I

went to Eskom with the
technology, how to do it, with

the details of qualified drone
pilots to do it for them. And

they said, No, we're not going
to do it. We have our own

research department and we will
follow our own research and

we're not going to do it. But
the reality is, otherwise, we're

not going to do it. Yeah. The
reality is that no one is going

to take Eskom to court, because
it's a government owned company.

And they're going to get into
trouble. And you know that it

won't get it solved. But But
anyway, well, what I'm saying is

the power cable situation should
be solvable. The black magic, we

can educate them. But it's it's
a tough job.

Julian Hoad: It's gonna be a
generational thing, isn't it?

Neil Forbes: Well, it may be
four or five generations. We

don't have that time.

Mike Brampton: That's a multi
generational thing.

Neil Forbes: Absolutely. Yeah.

Mike Brampton: We're not gonna
go there.

Julian Hoad: what number of
generations it takes to change

will depend on the education
within that area.

Neil Forbes: yeah. The the
poisoning the accidental is not

a big, big problem that the the
malicious poisoning, you know,

it doesn't have to be a big
number of events. You know, it

might only be 15 events in
Africa per year. But each event

is so immensely damaging that

Julian Hoad: What do you, you
talk about 9000 dead. if its

only 15 events at the worst
can't you

Mike Brampton: Yeah, I was gonna
cover this this with you Neil,

because I, I've travelled across
Africa. I, basically,

expedition, across Africa and
down. I've spent some time

living in Africa and you're
talking about South Africa,

which on a scale of
infrastructure, ization of

education and awareness is right
up here

Neil Forbes: Absolutely,
absolutely.

Mike Brampton: But you look at
places like, and this is not

being depreciative of places
like Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi,

Julian Hoad: Botswana,

Neil Forbes: Botswana is not too
bad.

But to put it in context with
Kenya, okay. There's all these

political issues, but I, you
know, I've been communicating

with people out there. I've been
talking to the Veterinary

Association. And I said, Well,
you know, it's fine. You can

come and teach Orthopaedic
Surgery. But what you have to

understand is that, our vets, if
you're lucky, they treat cattle.

That's it, period. Yeah, they
don't. They don't treat cats and

dogs. So what hope do you think
you've got that they're going to

anaesthetise and operate on a
bird?

Mike Brampton: Yeah, absolutely.
And Malawi, they'd got two

travelling vets that would work
prepared to vaccinate and work

with cats and dogs, that that
situation is changed. Yeah, I

was there working on a on a
malaria HIV project. And so this

is human medicine. And there are
a whole series of things that

happen there that open my eyes
to, to the situation and Western

influence. And our attempts to
make Africa like America,

Neil Forbes: and actually
nowadays, the antagonism of the

locals to that European apps
involvement, which is really

quite significant.

Mike Brampton: Massive, massive
and can you blame them. You

Julian Hoad: Is it?
know, I can't blame them. Yeah,

I was, like the Mzungu. And it
took me probably two and a half

months before I was accepted
amongst the village, and the

next village, in the bush and
Arrogant Westerner

coming in and teaching what to
do.

Mike Brampton: Right. That's it.
That's exactly it, Julian. And,

and it was a real struggle for
me. And I was working, as I say

in in HIV and malaria. Yeah. But
the massive on the population.

Yeah. So to be talking about
their own wildlife, and all of

this, and whilst I was there,
somebody approached me knowing

my background in veterinary
medicine, background medicine,

and they also found that I was a
wild animal capture, certified

wild animal capture, Did you not
of know this, Julian?

Julian Hoad: Yeah, I knew that

Mike Brampton: I'm probably the
only certified wildlife capture

operative in the south of
England. But that's another

story. And they wanted, because
Mozambique does not have

anything but hippopatami.

Neil Forbes: Right.

Mike Brampton: The reason being,
they've gone through a 25 year

Civil War.

Neil Forbes: Sure. Yeah.

Mike Brampton: And when it comes
to what are we going to eat

tomorrow?

Neil Forbes: Absolutely. Yeah.

Mike Brampton: You know, that
the wildlife that we we treasure

and we praise and and we we
cherish and becomes a food

source for the family. And one
of, I was approached whilst I

was working in Malawi, would I
be involved in in a wholesale

relocation of hippopotami from
Malawi, to Mozambique, which is

very interesting. Except, I said
to the guys that don't really

like some of the the ideas that
they were putting forwards. And

so I applied to move my capture
licence from the UK, to South

Africa to learn how to do this
properly. with species like

hippopotami. Deer, I have no
problem with. I've been brought

up with deer. I know what deer
are going to do. And how they're

going to react. I know how to
knock a deer down and how to

look after it and ensure its
going to get up again and go on

its way. Hippopotami, umm I
don't know how to do. And it was

interesting that I I applied for
the South African course. So to

look at Boomer capture and
chemical capture and

immobilisation, and I was denied
this. Which is fair enough,

because I'm not a veterinary
surgeon.

Neil Forbes: But It's all about
Rhino poaching at the moment. I

mean, the controls over the
availability of the drugs used

for Game Capture is very, very
strict for that reason,

Mike Brampton: for that reason,
and because of a number of

poachers are using knockdown
drugs. And it's interesting,

you're talking there about
diclofenac because obviously, in

deer population in the UK, we
have to be very careful as to

which drugs we use. And if we
use certain drugs, that animal

has to be tagged.So that it does
enter into the human food chain.

That That said, I do know a
number of people who have eaten

carcusses that have been knocked
down with

Neil Forbes: magic rum, magic
mushrooms all over again.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, we're not
gonna get into that, don't start

Julian on that, seriously. Lets
stay on the topic here,

Neil Forbes: okay.

Mike Brampton: Um, but yeah, I
mean,

Julian Hoad: I would, I would
love to have a chat later and

see if there's any way that I
could get involved from a

veterinay point of view, for our
listeners

Mike Brampton: before you before
you do that, Julian, before you

do that. I think, what is it,
Neil, that we can do? That our

listeners can do to help

Neil Forbes: I think there's
lots of things that we can be

doing. I think the difficulty is
that politically, a lot of it is

not acceptable. If you, and my
view is you know, right at the

moment, if we look at the
African vultures, it seems crazy

that we have, we only have
significant populations of

captive vultures in Africa. And
Africa is a country with endemic

avian influenza, Newcastle
disease, West Nile fever, etc.

So I mean, one thing would make
a lot of sense is to actually

shift breeding collections of
unreleasable wild birds, to

other parts of the world,
America, Europe, wherever.

Because we need to have a safe
population. So that if we, if,

if extinction or some of these
species happens, which, you

know, I hate to say whatever we
do seems incredibly likely. If

we have a reasonable,
successfully breeding population

elsewhere in the world, firstly,
they can be used for education,

for publicity, for conservation,
but they can be bred and

population can be increased such
that, if we reach a time, let's

say, in 30-40 years in Africa,
where species of vultures have

disappeared, but the education
and publicity has got to a

point, probably because the
vultures have disappeared, that

people then actually appreciate
the value. We then have

populations go back again. So So
really, I think it's about

publicity. It's about education.
It's making people aware, you

know, those four species of
vulture I talked to you about

are rarer than black rhinoceros.
One of the positive things I

should say, there are some
positives, one of the positive

things in South Africa is the
setting up of a network of

vulture restaurants. So places
where vultures are fed safe food.

Julian Hoad: I'm so glad its
that way round, I was goign to

say can I mention Vulture
Alliance as well, Neil?

Neil Forbes: Yeah. The Vulture
Alliance is the organisation

that we set up under the
charitable umbrella of the

International Centre of birds of
prey, which is the organisation

for for those of us who can go
and teach people in Africa. So

you know, it's voluntary
teaching, but basically, what

we're looking for is people to
fund the the materials we're use

in the teaching, so the pins and
that sort of stuff. Fortunately,

the equipment we use gets the
loaned to us, very generously by

Veterinary Instumentation. But
you know, it does cost something

in terms of air flights, we
normally get driven around and

so on when we're there. So
that's not a problem. But there

are some costs so people can
make donations to the

International Centre For Birds
Of Prey. And if you put in

brackets Vulture Alliance to
make sure it does go to the

vulture work, Vulpro itself, I
started saying, because I've

been working with them for some
years. And just to explain what

we've done with the
rehabilitation, historically,

bird's come in rehabbers do the
best they can. So we instituted

a few new things, they get
tested for parasites, they have

a PCV and a white blood cell
check. So if they have an

infection, they know about it if
they are anaemic they know about

it. We we read like the
published data is that two

different papers have come out
stating the level of lead

poisoning or the incidence of
lead poisoning in wild vultures

is 12 to 32%. Okay, so a
percentage of birds that come

into care have got lead
poisining, subclinical or

clinical lead poisening.

Mike Brampton: Woah where are
they getting this lead from?

Neil Forbes: Because the
carcasses that have been shot

Mike Brampton: okay.

Julian Hoad: Really?

Neil Forbes: Yeah. So, so lead
poisoning is an issue. And then

also, we we got an epoch machine
down there kindly supported by

quantum laboratories. And
obviously, we bought the

reagents and we were testing
them for ionised calcium.

Because if you think about it,
farmers poison the lion, the

jackal, the hyena. Every bird of
prey needs a whole carcass diet,

bone and meat. How does a
vulture get bone? Because the

bones of the carcasses that the
vulture eats are very big.

They're way too big for a
vulture to eat. Yeah. So the way

they get bone is because the
lion, the jackall, the hyena

have come along and chewed the
bones up. And then the vultures

eat the chips. Okay, so the
farmers have killed off the

lion, the jackal, the hyena.
There aren't any bone chips. So

a significant percentage of
young vultures leaving the nest,

leaving the cliff edge, fail to
fly on that first flight. And I,

when we were there last time,
time before we when we

introduced the epoch testing,
you know, a nice calcium level

should be around one to 1.1. And
we had the first vulture that

came in, a young vultures off
its legs, callapsed. level of

ionized calcium less than 0.25,
basically unsustainable with

life. You know what, just having
that testing kit where you can,

every bird that comes in can be
tested. So so all of a sudden,

we were testing for infection.
We were testing for anaemia, we

were testing for lead. We were
and we were testing for calcium.

Yeah. And all of a sudden, we
can start doing scientific

better quality rehabilitation.
And then at the same time,

because we trained a whole lot
of people to do orthopaedic

surgery, the Vulpro had a number
of different places they could

go to to get the surgical jobs
done. Yeah. Vulpro since then

have now developed their own
veterinary facility. But they

have no equipment in it, their
next task is to raise money to

equip it, and then they will get
volunteers going on a rotational

basis to do the veterinary work.

Julian Hoad: So that's how our
viewers can help?

Mike Brampton: This is the ICBP

Neil Forbes: The International
Centre of Birds of Prey, but

they they are the governing body
under which Vulture Alliance is

formed. Donate, if people donate
to this, I've told icbp that

anyone who donates at this time
that money is for Vulture

Alliance

Julian Hoad: Because actually
that's very important, we can

all, we can all look through the
internet and find charities to

donate to but it's making sure
the money goes to the right

place. So yeah, ICBP, the
International Centre

Neil Forbes: for birds of prey.

Julian Hoad: And they got the
money and they'll send it

through to

Neil Forbes: but they basically
Well, they wont send it to

Vulpro, they that will be for
Vulture Alliance, and that will

fund flights for myself, or
myself and Jemima ,my wife Karen

Mike Brampton: And to people who
can't see this at this point of

to go to Kenya or wherever else
we have to go to. If you want to

give money to Volpro that would
also, that's an alternative. Now

you can't do that throug
Facebook because they're not

charity. They're not for profi
organisation, which basicall

means the same in South Africa
terms, but it means Faceboo

won't list them. So Vulpro, b
t you if you contact VulPro,

they've got a website, cont
ct them and just ask them for

ank details. You can make a dona
ion to them. So they are desp

rate for equipment for thei
veterinary hospital. And I kno

they have a bad press. Peopl
think they're ugly, they'

e dirty, they eat rotten stuff.
But you know they serve a really

really important function in
he ecosystem. Let me give you

a figure. When we had that cr
sh of vultures in Asia.

9.9% of vultures. What happe
ed? What happened? T

e feral dogs increased dramat
cally. feral dogs very commonl

infected with rabies. There was
an increase of 600,000 h

man deaths from rabies predomina
ely children because the vult

res had died, because the
dogs went up and they got rab

es, and they spread it to the ch
ldren

time, we're showing, what we're
doing is, we're showing a

fantastic picture of a vulture

Neil Forbes: That's a hooded
vulture. That's one of the ones

that that sadly probably won't
be with us in five years time.

Julian Hoad: I'm reading at the
moment I'm reading Sapiens by

Yuval Noah Harari,. Which is,
its a history of the the human,

human race.

Neil Forbes: Disaster disaster.

Julian Hoad: Yeah, it is a
disaster complete disaster. We

are responsible for every single
mass extinction. Obviously, we

can't be blamed for the
dinosaurs. We, if, if we've been

around, then we would have been.
Every every single mass

extinction in the previous
30,000 years have been directly

attributable to humans.

Mike Brampton: And now we're
facing our own.

Julian Hoad: And now we're
facing, well I don't know if we

are. But we're going to take a
few animals with us when we go.

Neil Forbes: What about the
pangolin you know, the most

trafficked species in the world
pangolins. And

Julian Hoad: I love Pangolins,
amazingly,

Neil Forbes: they are such cute
little animals, them running

along on their back legs and
great big long tongue coming

out. And and you know,
absolutely wicked. And I saw

data some years ago about the
the numbers of tonnes and you're

talking about 100 120 160 tonnes
of pangalan meat seized in Hong

Kong, on its way to China. And
if you think that each pangolin

weighs between three and six
kilos, thats one hell of a lot

of pangolins

Julian Hoad: Its a huge number,
you think? How could there be

that number already in the world?

Neil Forbes: Well, and the
terrible thing

Mike Brampton: that's the ones
that was seized.

Neil Forbes: Yeah. And when
they, when they started seizing

them, what they were getting
with Asian pangolins. Guess

what, there aren't any now. Now
the ones they are seizing are

the African pangolins, guess
what? Give it another three or

four years. There won't be any
left.

Julian Hoad: Yeah, yeah.

Neil Forbes: And it's all
because certain people in

certain countries want to eat
them. Eating the scales is bad.

And then the real delicacy is
having a pangolin foetus in your

soup. How sick is that?

Julian Hoad: It's so sick. And
also the belief that actually

the scales are going to help in
some medical way? Yeah.

Mike Brampton: Yeah. Very sad.
Very sad. Very, very sad. And I

don't quite know how we move
from that, which is very

important. And an appropriate
comment, and quite how we move

from that to our well, well
earned CPD certificate, and

potentially the end of our show.

Julian Hoad: Well, I think I
think we must move, we got this

third aspect, which is
antimicrobial resistance. But I

think, to be perfectly honest,
I'm not inclined to follow that

tonight. Because quite frankly,
we don't deserve as a human race

to get ourselves better with
with antimicrobials tonight.

Lets leave that, if we could
Neil, for another another night.

Would you come back?

Neil Forbes: You're gonna do me
again. Again, Yes, certainly.

No, I'm very happy. And that is
very much one of my other hobby

horses is infection. Well, not
only antimicrobial resistance,

because that's only one one, one
spoke to the wheel. It's

infection control and
biosecurity in veterinary

practice is that the biggest
issue and obviously,

antimicrobial resistance is part
of that. So

Julian Hoad: in a way
antimicrobial resistance is, is

bolting the gate after the horses

Neil Forbes: Absolutely. And the
sad reality is ever since

Florence Nightingale. Well,
Alexander Fleming, really, we

have relied on antibiotics to
allow us to get away with

sloppy, sloppy hygiene and
infection control.

Mike Brampton: Absolutely.

Neil Forbes: And it's absolutely
fundamentally wicked. And as a

society, we we need to do better
and as a profession. We need to

do an awful lot better

Mike Brampton: On that note

Julian Hoad: you mentioned you
mentioned CPD.

Mike Brampton: Yeah. And wow,
Neil. Thank you so, so much.

Julian. Have you got a CPD
certificate for tonight?

Julian Hoad: I just happen to
have one here.

Neil Forbes: Oh, brilliant. How
about that. Aww gentle viewer

and a vulture. I love it.
Fantastic.

Julian Hoad: And it says if
you've made it this far, gentle

viewer, then you probably know
more about something than he did

a while ago. In all innocence, I
wrote this earlier in all

innocence thinking, we're gonna
have a great chat because Neil

Forbes is a fantastic speaker.
incredibly well respected,

expert in various fields, many,
many fields. Tonight, I, we use

the word humbled don't we far
too often. I've been humbled,

but I've been I've been really
humbled Neil by what you've had

to say. And my goodness me that
there's gonna be a lot for me to

think about tonight with
vultures and conservacy in

general.

Mike Brampton: No, question.

Julian Hoad: Thank you so much.
We haven't Yes.

Mike Brampton: Yeah, timeout
timeout, because in order for

this to be verified by the rcvs,
various governing bodies, it's

overall one thing doing the CPD
certificate receiving the

certificate. We do of course,
after reflects on this.

Julian Hoad: We do

Mike Brampton: And so you know,
Neil. Absolutely amazing. Thank

you very much indeed, you've
educated, I think, Well,

certainly me

Julian Hoad: and me immensely,
and

Mike Brampton: I'm sure most of
our viewers and but we do, of

course have to pause for
reflection. So let's take a

moment just to pause and reflect
on our CPD this evening.

Neil your not taking this
seriously.

Julian Hoad: Got to reflect.
He's drinking cider.

Mike Brampton: Did you not rea
the email. Julian. This t

me of the evening. Ordinarily,
you would tell us a joke.

Julian Hoad: Do you know I've
got one, I've got one I thought

I thought Neil might like. I say
that he's not gonna like it

because it's crap. Isn't it as
most of my jokes are but

Mike Brampton: Most of his jokes
are Neil

Julian Hoad: Not most, not most,
all. A fewyears ago, some

friends of mine got together and
they held a 21st birthday party

and invited me to it, 21st
birthday party. I said Whose

birthday is it? it's the 21st
anniversary of most of your

jokes.

Neil Forbes: And you said the
old ones of the best ones

Julian Hoad: and they didn't
agree, this is, this is about

it's about a cat burglar. Not
someone who steals cats. A cat

burglar. This wealthy mansion at
night, climbed in through a high

window and dropped down into the
room they thought was the most

likely to hold all the all the
jewels, so he was shining a

torch around the place. And the
torch lit up this wonderful case

full of jewels, fantastic rich
tonight and diamonds and

business. Emerald gold, look at
this I'm going to be

fantastically wealthy. So he
started unpicking the lock to

this jewel cabinet and suddenly
heard 'Jesus is watching you.'

Turned around, nothing was
there, so he carried on opening

this jewel case. 'Jesus is
watching' His torch caught this

parrot sitting on a perch. And
he said 'Was it you that said

that?' 'Jesus is watching you'
'It was you, you're were talking

parrot?' 'Oh yes' 'Gosh, your
clever aren't you' 'Jesus is

watching you' 'What's your
name?' 'Archimedes.'

'Archimedes.' He says 'That's a
strange name for a parrot'

'Yeah. And Jesus is a strange
name for Rottweiler but he's

still fucking watching you,
isn't he?'

Neil Forbes: Lovely

Mike Brampton: On that note, can
I say, if you've liked what

you've seen tonight, and thank
you so much, Neil Forbes

Neil Forbes: pleasure, pleasure.
For bringing us into your life

in that regard. So if you've
liked what you've seen, tick,

like, share, like it on
Facebook. Watch it on Spotify or

all of the other media platforms
that we're on. Listen to us.

Tick like, let us know you're
out there. And we'll do what we

can to bring you more content
like we've done this evening. So

on that note, can I wish you
good evening, and may your dog

go with you

Julian Hoad: and may your dog go
with you

Neil Forbes: Cheers everybody

Mike Brampton: Cheers Neil,
Thank you bery much indeed

Neil Forbes: pleasure, thanks
for inviting me to sit down with

you guys.

Julian Hoad: Neil. Thanks very
much.

Neil Forbes: Pleasure. It's been
fun.

Mike Brampton: Have you enjoyed
yourself?

Neil Forbes: Yes, I have it, you
know that you know that go on.

You know me well enough, Mike.

Mike Brampton: It's been
fabulous to have you on

Julian Hoad: Oh, do you know,
that was the best ever. I think

it was fantastic.

Mike Brampton: It was
incredible. Yeah.

Julian Hoad: I, there, were huge
amounts where we said absolutely

bugger all. We didn't need to I
think pretty much send it out

without our input at all.

Mike Brampton: I think we could
but the potential issue there is

this is our brand.

Julian Hoad: I thought you
bastard why didn't you invite us

in. Excellent. Really good.

Mike Brampton: Shut up Neil this
is our show, not yours

Julian Hoad: Fucks sake, Enough
about vultures. I'm just blown

away by that.

Mike Brampton: incredible
incredible