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The NYC Academic Solutions Podcast focuses on helping parents navigate New York City's complex education landscape by providing them with valuable information and real, actionable strategies for their children's success.
Hosted by Alexander Friedman, owner of Brooklyn Math Tutors, each episode zeroes in on a specific topic relevant to NYC education and features experts who provide practical advice and insights, empowering students to excel both academically and beyond.
Interested in being a guest or have a question for the host? Get in touch via email. We're here to help.
Hello, and welcome to the BMT podcast, where we provide academic solutions for NYC parents,
empowering you with actionable insights, practical advice, and expert knowledge to help your
students excel in education and beyond.
I'm your host, Alexander Friedman, the owner of Brooklyn Math Tutors.
In this podcast, we're committed to delivering valuable non-commercial content by engaging
conversations with various experts who will share their knowledge and experience to help
NYC parents navigate the unique and complex world of education in the city.
Today, we'll be discussing the critical question, should your child go to Stuyvesant High School?
Not so much how to get into Stuyvesant High School, but should they go if they get in
and should they even try to take the test?
Joining us to explore this question is our guest, Maya Duany.
Maya is a highly skilled test prep tutor with over 20 years of teaching experience and a
background in linguistic anthropology from NYU.
Maya also has a unique passion for teaching math to middle and high school students, and
she holds a master's in bioethics from Columbia University.
So without further ado, let's get started.
Welcome to the BMT podcast, Maya.
Thanks for having me, Alex.
Can you tell us about your background and how you got into tutoring?
Yeah, I started tutoring when I was in college.
This was over 20 years ago, and I saw an ad in the Village Voice for the Princeton Review,
and my SAT score was high enough that I qualified to audition for them.
I got hired.
I was trained.
I started working there, and the rest is history.
I mean, at this point, I've taught for, I don't know how many different companies.
I have co-authored SAT textbooks, and of course, in addition to the SAT and the ACT, I also
do pretty much every other standardized test under the sun, which includes the SHSAT, which
is the test to get into the specialized high schools in New York City.
Maya is indeed the test prep queen.
So what sets Stuyvesant apart from the other NYC high schools and perhaps even the other
specialized high schools?
I think what sets Stuyvesant apart is reputation more than anything.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Alex, it's an amazing school for students in particular
who are very strong in math and in science, and it is in that very small group of specialized
high schools that everyone is always clamoring to get into, right?
They're very like prestigious, sort of elite, but still public schools.
And the only way to get in is to get a certain score on this test.
That is the only way to get in.
Your grades don't matter.
Your extracurriculars don't matter.
It's just your score on this test.
Stuyvesant for some reason has stood out as being the best of the best, although I would
argue that the other STEM schools are just as good.
So I do think it's reputation more than anything.
I think I have to agree.
So I didn't mention this intro, but I went to Stuyvesant and it was a good school and
we'll get into it.
But when I met people from other schools, like it was pretty much the same thing.
They had very similar experiences, very similar academic strengths, but everyone knew Stuyvesant.
And when you say, oh, Stuyvesant is like, oh, I heard of that.
But if you say I went to Brooklyn Tech, they're like, what's that?
Or like, I went to Bronx Heights.
You know what I think it is?
I think it's because the cutoff scores to get into Stuyvesant are higher than any of
the others.
So based solely on the fact that they have like the highest minimum score, I think that
that's what makes it seem so much better and so much more elite.
When in fact, if you look at rankings of the best schools in New York, Stuyvesant is typically
in the top three, but it's not necessarily ranked number one.
A lot of times the Queens High School for Sciences at York College will come in above
that or Bronx Science will come in above Stuyvesant.
So I do think maybe it's related to the SHSAT cutoff scores.
Yeah, maybe the nice building in Manhattan.
It seems like very central downtown.
I think, yeah, the Manhattan location is definitely a part of it, too.
I will agree with you on that.
Which, as we'll get into this later, is not necessarily a good thing.
What are some key factors parents think about when deciding like, well, I guess we're helping
the students decide, like, should they go to Stuyvesant?
Is it the right fit for their kid?
So I think both parents think that their kid should go to Stuyvesant.
Because it's Stuyvesant.
Stuyvesant really isn't the right school for every student.
If your child doesn't love math and science, I mean, sure, they should also be good at
math and science, but that's not even enough.
They should really love those subjects.
They should also thrive in a competitive environment because Stuyvesant is pretty
competitive notoriously.
If your kid prefers the liberal arts, the humanities, there's so many amazing schools
in New York.
I think Stuyvesant is the perfect school for some students, but it's not for every student.
So I do think parents should really ask themselves, what are my child's strengths?
Does my child thrive in a competitive environment?
Does my child love math?
And if so, then perhaps Stuyvesant is the right fit.
I want to add to that because I loved math and science, and I didn't mind competition.
But I think it was not a good fit for me because I didn't want to work hard.
It's a default assumption that parents think, okay, my kid should want to do this.
But not everybody wants to work that hard, and not everybody enjoys working that hard,
even if they like math and science, even if they're good at it, even if they enjoy it.
The workload is really intense, and as far as I've heard, it's gotten more intense.
And that's something to really consider.
Yeah, yeah, I have a number of students that attend Stuyvesant.
And yes, they have at least three hours of homework a night, at least.
I think three hours is a gentle underestimate, I think, realistically.
I often remember asking teachers, and I was nodding the model of students, it's like,
do you not think we have no other teachers?
Because they give you so much homework, you're like, how could I possibly do this
and everything else when this one assignment might take me an hour,
and I have seven or eight classes?
So what kind of student does well?
Well, I think, as you mentioned, it's going to be a student who either likes working hard,
or at least doesn't mind working really hard and putting in that many hours of work a night.
Definitely someone who thinks more in this logical math and science way.
That doesn't mean that they can't also love the humanities,
or that they can't also enjoy things like theater, or what have you.
But the student who is really going to thrive there is going to be a little bit more competitive
and a little bit more, you know, STEM-minded, so.
And yeah, willing to work really hard.
I think it can't be stated enough, like how hard you have to be willing to work,
and you have to be okay with everyone pressuring you to work,
because everyone else also works very hard.
And somehow, like, hey, you only have a 93 average, that is not good enough.
Yeah.
So like, on the other end of the spectrum,
what kind of student would be perhaps very not well suited for Stuyvesant?
I mean, I see so many students who, you know, they get A's and, you know,
A minuses in their math classes and science classes in middle school,
they think of themselves as being good math students,
but, you know, they have so many other interests that were like,
they just happen to be like decent at math,
they're gonna find sometimes when they get to, if they get to Stuyvesant,
that they're not as great at these things as they thought.
So I guess the question really becomes,
are you somebody that would push yourself to go beyond the curriculum,
or somebody that has that sort of interest in learning more than
what your math or science teacher is teaching you at the moment?
If you're just like your average student,
and there's nothing wrong with that for the record,
just somebody who's pretty good at everything,
I don't know that Stuyvesant's the place.
Stuyvesant isn't gonna be the place for somebody who prefers writing poetry, perhaps.
That said, there's a little bit of every, you know,
they certainly do have good writing courses, you know,
like their ELA program, their history programs are strong,
but I do think, ultimately, there's so many great schools in New York
that I wouldn't see any reason for the average student
to attend a school like Stuyvesant.
I have to agree.
Are there other reasons not to go, like logistical reasons?
I mean, obviously, if you don't live anywhere near Stuyvesant,
and then you have this long commute on top of all the homework you have,
I mean, if it's gonna take you two hours to get home,
and then you have to do three to five hours of homework,
and people think, oh, if my child goes to Stuyvesant,
a sure thing that they'll get into whenever college they want.
Well, first of all, if you have these long commutes to get home,
there's no time for extracurricular activities,
which colleges are definitely looking at,
in addition to how well you do in school.
And also, if you're not going to graduate sort of in the,
I would say, top third minimum, probably more likely like top fifth,
maybe even top 10%,
going to Stuyvesant isn't that impressive.
You really, they're not going to take all the Stuyvesant students.
So you have to think about sending your student, your child,
to a school where they are going to thrive,
where they are going to excel,
and where they are going to be able to be at the top of the grade,
as opposed to somewhere in the middle.
I think it's really important to realize how serious,
how much time those commutes take,
because it may seem absurd for people who haven't been there,
that somebody would go two hours as a high school student.
But I remember people I knew who would go from Staten Island,
the depth of Staten Island,
or I lived all the way in Brooklyn, my commute was not two hours,
but some of the most unhappy times in my life was commuting to that school.
And I think that's why, like, smarter people will like choose,
like, you know what, I live in Brooklyn and I'm close to Brooklyn Tech,
let's go to Brooklyn Tech.
Well, and every borough has an amazing, you know, specialized high school.
Every single one.
I mean, Staten Island, they have Staten Island Tech,
and Bronx has Bronx Science,
and Queens has, you know, Queens Science at York,
and of course Brooklyn has Brooklyn Tech.
So many students go to Brooklyn Tech, thrive at Brooklyn Tech.
It's still so impressive to go to Brooklyn Tech.
But it's also impressive to go to so many schools that aren't even these SHSAT schools.
And so I just really want to reiterate that point
for parents who kind of think that it's these schools or bust.
Yeah, yeah.
And those like two hours or hour and a half you might save on the commute,
they can absolutely be put into extracurriculars,
into doing better at your school.
Also to like having better like physical and mental health.
Like when I went to school, you know, in the late 90s,
everybody thought, oh, it's fine, I only got five hours of sleep.
Like that is not good.
Like just because as a child, you can kind of get away with it
because you're very resilient at that age.
It is not good for you.
Like you won't think as well, you won't test as well,
you won't feel as well, you probably won't grow up like as happy.
You know, I used to always joke like, well, these kids better work hard now,
they're gonna have to pay their therapist later.
Yeah.
I wasn't one of those that like got up super early,
but you will do probably better by allocating your limited time
more intelligently than going to like the, the, the perceived top school.
This is going to be my next question,
but what are some like misconceptions about getting into college
if you're a Stuyvesant student?
Yeah, I think we, we were just touching on that, right?
Which is this idea that if you go to Stuyvesant,
you're almost guaranteed entry or that you are going to have an easier time at least
of getting into the top schools in the country.
And that might be true if you are graduating at the top of the class at Stuyvesant.
But if you're not, if you're somewhere in the middle of the pack,
I don't believe that going to Stuyvesant is going to help.
If anything, it might actually hurt.
Because if all the students at Stuyvesant are applying,
let's say to the same, you know, 10, 20 universities,
they're not going to be able to take more than a certain amount.
And that amount is not going to be that many.
And so the person ranked above your child
is going to be more likely to be selected for that top ranking university.
So if your child is going to be at the top, great.
Then yes, it's probably going to influence college admissions in a positive way.
But otherwise, I don't know that it will.
Yeah, this was a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people.
Because the same student who might be like middle of the pack at Stuyvesant
would be like the valedictorian in any like non-specialized high school
and have a much better chance.
And just to like clarify on what you said about like the schools can't take them all.
If these students, you know, let's say everyone applies to MIT, right?
Because they're all math and science people.
MIT can't take 400 students from from the 800 students dives in class.
They just can't.
It wouldn't look right.
It wouldn't make any sense.
Like, but those same students, if they were the valedictorian of whatever school
or you know, they were highly, highly ranked.
Many more of them would get into MIT.
Many more of them will get into like the Columbias and the Harvards and all these schools.
And so instead of competing with, you know, the general population,
you're now competing with like the top 1% of people for these college spots
that are already only taking the top 1% anyway.
You just do not do yourself any favor.
You've hit the nail right on the head, Alex.
That's exactly the problem is you are now competing with the top 1%
because you're competing against your classmates.
You'd have better chance if you were the valedictorian or just, you know,
in the top 10% of another great New York school.
There are so many great New York public schools, really.
Do you have any stories of students who went there and hate it?
Oh, yeah, I had one student who she got in.
She, well, you know, it's one of those things.
You get into Stuyvesant, you go to Stuyvesant.
Of course.
Like you feel like you must go.
It's like if you get into Harvard or something, like you have to go.
So she went to Stuyvesant and she was miserable.
She hated it so much.
She dreaded going to school every day.
She had more work every night than she could handle.
She felt like she was having trouble keeping up,
even though she had clearly like been able to get in.
And so clearly she had done well in math, you know, in middle school, etc.
Here she was and struggling to keep up in geometry,
struggling to keep up with her classmates.
So, so unhappy.
I think she ended up deciding to transfer out,
but it was a tough decision because you get in and you feel like you should go.
And then you feel like you should stay.
And you feel like a failure.
Yeah.
Well, the longer you stay, the harder it is to leave
because it feels like this sunken cost fallacy of,
well, I've already put in two years.
Well, I should put in the other two years.
Or what's the point of having put in these terrible two years
if I don't get to say I graduated from there or something like that?
So definitely seen a few of those.
Yeah, this goes back to your earlier point.
It's not for people who like are good at math.
It's for people who are like love it, who are really, really good at it,
who like, you know, are doing their own science fair projects
or like asking teacher questions and are running ahead of the class.
It's not for the average high.
It's not, you know, we mentioned average student.
I think what you meant is the average, like high achieving student.
That's what I meant.
Yes.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
I didn't mean like definitely the average high achieving student
who's probably getting A's in all their subjects.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not for that person.
Like those people can get in with, you know, lots of study, lots of work,
and then you get overwhelmed by just like the intensity and level
because you are competing with the top 1% and it's like, it's no joke.
So if not Stuyvesant, then where do you suggest people go?
I mean, if they really love math and science, you know, they,
I do still recommend taking the SHSAT and you know,
Brooklyn Tech is an amazing school.
I've had so many students that have gone there and they do like it.
There's still a lot of work.
Don't get me wrong.
It's still, it's still a difficult school.
It's competitive.
It's high achieving, but I find that my students at Brooklyn Tech
seem a little bit happier on the whole.
And there's also so many amazing schools that are not these specialized high schools.
Certainly LaGuardia is a specialized high school for which you do not need this test
because it is not a STEM school, right?
LaGuardia is a school for performing arts.
And if your child is a performing arts kind of kid, then yeah, apply for LaGuardia
or Frank Sinatra is a great school for the performing arts.
And if your child is just a smart, high achieving kid who's not specifically
into a competitive math and science environment.
New York has great schools like Baruch College Campus High School
and Millennium High School and Eleanor Roosevelt.
There's also Bard High School Early College,
which allows you to get an associate's degree as well as your high school diploma.
All of their math classes are crazy hard.
I have to say like, it's the one school I saw who had some math classes
that were like as tough as the math classes on staff.
It was shockingly hard.
Oh, and they're not easy to get into.
Bard and Beacon, for example, like you still have to apply
and you don't just get to write the name down on your list of schools.
You actually have to submit applications to a number of these schools like Bard and Beacon.
But it's different from the SHSAT.
Like both of those schools, Bard and Beacon are highly selective.
But the point is that there are so many great schools in New York
and people get so caught up in the Stuyvesant or, you know, just the SHSAT schools
that they forget how many amazing schools New York has to offer.
Agreed.
So getting closer to wrapping up here,
what advice would you give to parents who are like considering Stuyvesant?
They think their kid might be a good fit, but aren't sure.
Is there any way to like test that out?
Um, I mean, if you know anybody who like maybe you have another parent
who's got a child that went to Stuyvesant, you know,
or if you have parent groups or your child themselves know somebody went to Stuyvesant,
that's always the best because then you get to ask somebody directly
versus just reading what the internet has to say or something of the sort.
But I think, you know, talking to your child and really explaining
how Stuyvesant will have at least three to five hours of work every night.
It's going to be competitive.
It's, you know, and talking to your child and seeing how they truly feel about that
and really listening to their answer.
Like really, really considering what their response is there
because if they seem really excited about it, that's great.
I mean, look, I had a student who was not a good fit for Stuyvesant,
but decided she needed to go because to her, it was a guarantee of entry to Harvard.
Oh, God, no.
No, no, it's definitely not.
But you know, she was in eighth grade
and she doesn't really get all of that just yet, right?
And I don't blame the student per se, but she just got it in her head
that if she goes to Stuyvesant, it's her ticket to Harvard.
She also decided she has to go to Harvard, right?
I mean, she's in eighth grade, she's got these names in her head.
She hasn't seen these schools, she doesn't know much about them.
She has in her mind a name of a university and a name of a New York high school
and that these things are somehow going to guarantee her success in life.
And so there was no talking her out of wanting to go to Stuyvesant,
even though I could tell you just from my time with her
that she wasn't going to be happy there.
I could see that this wasn't going to be the right fit for her.
But she herself felt really confident she should go.
I do think parents should also try to gauge from what they know of their own child,
whether they think their child would thrive in that environment.
Nobody knows your child like you do.
I like what you said before about talking to someone who has gone there.
If at all possible, this may be a little out of the box,
but find someone who's an adult that's gone there, maybe like a young adult,
and have them just hang out with your kid for like a half an hour
and then be like, does my kid seem like one of your classmates?
Because there's definitely different types of people
and this sounds so odd, but when I meet people,
I could often tell if they went to one of the specialized high schools.
There's a certain kind of character, a certain kind of personality,
certain kind of confidence and academic curiosity that people have.
And it's not the same as the people who we met should do well in school.
It's a different kind of person.
And you may get an interesting response like,
oh, yes, I think your child would really fit in there.
Or like, I don't know.
I don't think he or she would have a great time.
Can people reach out and ask you, Alex?
Sure.
Yeah, that's fine.
By all means.
I'm a little old now, but like, you know, ask people.
There's tons of stigrams.
Yeah, you can ask me, though.
All right.
Is there anything we didn't get to that you'd like to mention?
No, I think we covered a lot of the reasons people may want to go.
And I don't want to make it sound like it's not the right fit for some people.
It absolutely is.
I think Stuyvesant is a wonderful school.
I do think it's important for parents not to think that it is the only school
or even the best school, because I don't think that that's the case either.
It isn't an incredible school.
It's definitely in like the top three schools in terms of its ranking.
But there's so many great schools in New York, frankly.
And I really think it's about finding the right fit for your child
so that they can thrive in their environment and not have four miserable years,
especially if at the end of those four miserable years,
it doesn't actually even raise their chances of getting into their university of choice.
Absolutely.
It's very context-based.
Just because school is the top school, well, it's the top school for whom?
It may be the top school for a certain kind of student,
but absolutely not the top school for someone else.
Now, after all that, if the listeners are still very serious about going to Stuyvesant,
we will have some episodes on actually how to do well on the SHSAT later,
probably also with Maya.
And thank you for being on.
Yeah, it was my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
All right, folks, thank you so much for tuning in to the BMT Podcast today.
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