Chapter + Verse

Danny & Debbie Hudson's tale of overcoming adversity and finding God's purpose in every season of life is nothing short of inspiring. Join us as they share their wisdom and experiences that have touched countless lives. Don't miss this episode!

What is Chapter + Verse?

A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.

Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
come on and tell their real stories,

faith, failure, redemption, and the
occasional, "Lord, what are you doing?"

moment.

Some inspiring, some messy,
and some that probably should

have come with a warning label.

Because through every chapter of
every story, God is still writing.

And He's not afraid of a little chaos.

This is Jill.

And Carrie.

Let's turn the page.,

We're here today with our good
friends, um, Danny and Debbie Hudson.

We're so happy that y'all are
here and agreed to do this.

Yay.

We're happy to be here too.

Thank you.

Um, do y'all wanna tell us a
little bit about yourselves?

Sure.

Okay.

We, uh, we are both in our 70s.

We have- That's incredible.

Mm-hmm.

Like, listen, I know that, like, 70
is the new 22, but it just doesn't

seem like you're in your 70s.

Yeah.

Well, believe me, time has gone
by so quick- â¦ so it doesn't

seem like 70 for us either.

Uh, we, we are both
divorced and remarried.

Debbie and I have been married
30-something years now.

33.

Iâ¦

And I gotta remember the anniversary date.

When is it?

I remember one time that I took
her out for our anniversary

dinner, and it was a day early.

So Oh.

So we- Did you know that he
took you out a day early?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

I mean, like, if you were like,
"Oh, does he think it's our day?"

Orâ¦

I said, "This is so special."

I said, "But you do know our
anniversary is tomorrow."

And he said, "Oh, no."

That's all right.

Sometimes I forget things.

It was very sweet though.

Yeah.

Yes.

Um, and y'all haveâ¦

Y'all married and have kids, I
mean, separately, and grandkids,

of course, are the best thing.

Yeah.

I know that now.

We have, we have four kids.

We have one that's in heaven now.

Mm-hmm.

Aaron passed away in 2000.

We have 11 grandkids, and they age
from 4 years old to 24 years old.

Wow.

Yes.

So we stay busy.

You think- But we love it â¦ more
is coming or is that it?

Oh, maybe the great-grands
will start coming now.

Yeah, yeah.

But after all the marriages, but Yeah.

Yeah.

We have one getting
married this summer, so.

Aw.

Yeah.

Nice.

So we're excited.

Good.

Yeah.

We're looking forward to that.

Yeah.

We, we travel quite a bit with ourâ¦

Going to see our kids.

We have one son that's a baseball
coach- Mm-hmm â¦ in high school, so

we get to travel, you know, whenever
tournaments come about in the springtime.

We get to go see that.

We have a couple that lives
up in Sheridan, Wyoming, so we

don't get to see them very often.

Wow.

And their daughter, Ashley, she is a
TSA agent in, uh, Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Wow.

So they're- That's
cool â¦ they're sc- Yeah.

They're, they're scattered out all over.

Yeah.

So we don't get to see some of them
as much, as often as we want to.

Yeah.

Then we have, uh, one that lives here
in, um, uh, Russellville, Matt, and

then Eric lives in Heber Springs.

So- Okay â¦ we have them all spaced out.

Yeah.

Well, that gives you an
excuse to travel and see them.

That's right.

But, but we do love to travel,
and we love to hike and camp and

Well, I know you're doing the,
uh, summer school, the Holy Hikes.

Holy Hikers, yeah.

I, uh, yeah, Holy Hikers.

Yeah.

I'm so sad thatâ¦

You know what I mean?

I'm not sad that I- I'm with the
kids and doing summer school with

them, but, but I was like, "Oh
man, that would've been fun to do."

Yeah.

We're looking forward to it.

It's in the evening and it's not so hot.

Oh, yeah.

So.

We're hoping it's gonna work out well.

Yeah.

See what the people learn.

I think quite a few have signed up, right?

I think.

Yeah, we have nine people signed
up, so hopefully a few more will

show up, so that'll be good.

Yeah.

Sometimes people just
don't sign up, but- Yeah.

Yeah.

You know how people are.

Okay.

Well, what would, what chapter, what, what
do you think you're gonna share today?

What, who- whoever wants to start can.

Yeah.

I, I guess the thing that, that we have
realized, that I have realized over, over

the years i- is just how faithful God is.

Mm-hmm.

And how he takes you through seasons.

And, um, we, I have a men's group that
meets every Thursday night and, and the

thing that I try to impress upon the men
is, is the faithfulness of God and how

he is always working within our lives.

He is striving to conform us to
the image of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mm-hmm.

But we go through seasons and, and
there are times whenever we, we feel

as if, you know, we've fallen away.

We feel as if we're not close to him.

Mm-hmm.

You know, s- so many things transpire
in our lives, you know, where, where

you have tragedies in your life, where
you have hard times in your life.

Mm-hmm.

And where you go through all of these
various seasons in your life, but the

thing that Debbie and I have found
out i- is God is always faithful.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

He, he never leaves us.

He's always there.

He's always striving to
bring us into maturity.

And, and so we, we try, we have
tried over the years to learn from

the seasons that we go through.

We try to be able to hear what the
Holy Spirit is speaking to us and, and

we're trying even now at, at, in, in,
in our mid-70s, we're trying to even

now learn what it is that he's speaking
to us during this season of our life.

And, and that's not always easy.

Yeah.

And, and so, you know, it,
it, it's a day-to-day learning

experience that we go through.

But, but God has been very faithful to us.

And a couple of years ago, we had a
prophetic meeting at First Assembly.

Mm-hmm.

And Wayne Drain came up and told us, he
spoke over us, and he said, "God is gonna

bring young people into your lives."

And he said, "You're not
gonna have to find them."

He said, "They're gonna come to you."

Mm.

And that's happened.

Wow.

And so we feel like we are just
so blessed because we have people

within our lives that, you know,
that could be our grandkids.

Yeah.

And, and yet they, they come to us
and, and we'll have a meal with them.

We sit down and fellowship with them.

We talk about the experiences that we've
gone through in our lives, the things.

And, and so we, we have learned
that i- instead of us getting to a

plateau, uh, or maybe even dropping
off in what God desires to do in

our lives, He, He continues to
cause that to be on an upward trend.

Mm-hmm.

And Debbie and Iâ¦

Debbie's, one of her fa- one
of the sayings that she has is,

is, "We're gonna finish strong."

Yeah.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

We're, we're not gonna back off.

We're not gonna say, well, God's
finished with us, 'cause He's not.

Mm-hmm.

And so- Mm-hmm.

You have air in your lungs,
you're, you're not done yet.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's how we look at it.

As long as we're breathing,
we have a purpose.

Yeah.

That's right.

Well, I know for me, um, in my earlier
years, I, I remember struggling so much

with insecurities and, uh, self-doubt,
people pleasing, just, you know, trying

so hard to, to have peace and joy in
my life, and it just didn't seemâ¦

It wasn't there.

And so it wasn't until I started studying
and reading the Word, and because even

as a Christian, I still had all of these
things that I struggled with, and I still

can default to some of those things today.

But, um, I'm so grateful for what
the Lord has done in my life, um-

It's, it's made such a difference
learning who I am in Christ, because

without Christ, I'm, you know, I
would go right back to those things.

But I'm just so grateful to Him that
He has brought me so far, um, in it.

Um, I know Hebrews 10:23, that's one of
the scriptures that I, that I cling to,

and it says that, "Let us hold fast the
confession of our hope without wavering,

that He who promised is faithful."

And then another one that, uh, isâ¦

We actually have it, um, you know, on
a tile that's hanging in our, uh, ho-

home, and it's 1 Corinthians 1:9, and it
says that, "God is faithful, reliable,

trustworthy, and ever true to His
promises, and He can be depended on."

And so I think for me, I have learned
over the years that God is faithful.

And I used toâ¦

I remember when I would pray, I
would, I would doubt, and Danny

has helped me so much in that area
because Danny doesn't waver in his

faith, and he doesn't waver in, okay,
this is what the Word of God says.

In fact, one time he said to me, he said,
"Debbie, I'm just gullible enough to

believe that if God said it, it's true."

And that has stuck with me.

And so it has really helped to develop
my prayer life, because now when I

pray, I don't pray hoping it'll happen.

I just pray, I pray because I know
that the Lord is faithful, and that He

will give us the desires of our heart,
and that He knows what is best for us.

And so I can fully trust Him in that.

I remember early on when, um, I first
got saved, Leonard Kraut, who's no longer

with us, he quoted a scripture to me,
and he s- it's fir- it's Philippians 1:6.

And it says, "Being confident of
this, that He who began a good work

in you will carry it out to completion
until the day of Christ Jesus."

And so that just gave me so much hope,
that even though I felt like I wasâ¦

I had so many things that I was
dealing with, I felt like, you know,

the Lord has started this in me,
and He will see it to completion.

And He's been so faithful in that.

Yeah.

I love Leonard.

Leonard used to- I know â¦ just sidebar.

Leonard used to teach the Case for
Creation with our sixth graders.

Yes.

And he would always crack the girls
up because he would, he would start

off the whole session by telling
them like, "Hey girls, we don't

marry for love, we marry for money."

He's like, "That's biblical."

That sounds like Leonard.

He said, "That's biblical," and he'd
go into some scripture about it.

Yeah.

But they were always so
appalled at the idea of marrying

for money instead of love.

Yeah.

It was so funny.

He cracked me up.

I remember seeing Leonard with theâ¦

'Cause he would always
pinch the little- Oh, yes

kids' cheeks.

Yes.

Yes, he- And, and I remember one
time, one little girl saw him

coming and she started crying.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

He did all the time, yeah.

Yeah.

He's a good guy.

He was fun.

Good guy.

You know, o- over the years,
I, I guess I've becomeâ¦

I, in, in fact, I told Debbie, I said,
"If I pass away before you do," I said,

"Jo, I want you to put a three-by-five
card in my casket that says 'Goin' home.'"

Because I, I rely on three-by-five cards.

Mm-hmm.

I remember after I became
saved, and, and I've been a

Christian for over 50 years now.

I got saved back in the, uh, early '70s
- whenever I first was saved, I started

putting scriptures and songs on a three by
five card, and at that time I was working

for a woodline, uh, freight company.

And, and so I'd, on the three by five
card, I'd have that in my pocket.

Mm.

And so as I was traveling around,
whenever I'd have a chance, I'd pull

that three by five card out, and
so I kind of, I could learn these

Christian songs that I did not know.

Yeah.

And, and, but I would have
scriptures on, on that, and, and

I have maintained that- Mm-hmm

throughout my entire- You
just made your own flashcards.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's exactly what it is.

Yeah.

That's exactly what it is.

In fact, just this morning I, uh, I
wrote one down and, and I wrote down

the, the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.

And I put those down on one side, and
then on the other side I wrote down,

"I am not to grieve the Holy Spirit
and nor to quench the Holy Spirit,

nor to I am wa- nor am I to walk after
the flesh, but after the Holy Spirit."

And then in the Amplified it
tells who the Holy Spirit is.

Mm.

So I wrote that down, that He's my
comforter, He's my counselor, He's

my helper, He's my intercessor,
He's my advocate, He strengthens

me, and He stands by me.

And then at the bottom of that I wrote
down, "He's the spirit of truth."

Mm-hmm.

Because I'm beginning to realize, you'd
think by my age I would grasp this by now.

But I, I'm constantly learning the
depth of who God is and what He

wants, but I'm, I'm beginning to
learn even a greater measure how

much I depend upon the Holy Spirit.

Yes.

And, and He does things for me
that I don't think I realize.

Mm-hmm.

I, I feel like I know Heâ¦

Like, He does stuff for us
that I know we don't realize.

You know, when you think about, like- I
know this is just, I don't know, my brain

goes medical, but, like, when you think
about every little tiny thing that has to

happen in order to keep your body upright-
Oh, yeah â¦ in order to breathe in and

out and, you know, keep your brain going,
like, it's the same, it's the same thing.

Like, it's all those things that
we just do naturally, we just do

without thinking at all, but the Holy
Spirit is behind every one of it.

Yes.

Every single thing.

Yes.

And, and we've, we've, we've started
studying, we've started looking at, with

the men's group, we talked about it a
while, a few weeks ago, uh, about how our

steps are ordered, and many times they're
ordered, and we don't even realize it.

Right.

We went down to visit with some
friends of ours on vacation.

We was down in Pensacola, Florida,
and, and there's a pastor down there

that we've known for several years.

And so before we went down there, I
thought, "I wanna put a ball cap on."

And, and we, wherever we go anywhere,
to national parks or anything, 'cause

we're big campers and hikers- Mm-hmm

I always buy a, a ball cap-
Mm-hmm â¦ from wherever we go.

Mm-hmm.

Well, a few years ago, I went on
a missions trip, a number of years

ago, actually, it's 2004, to a
missions trip in South Africa.

So I saw that South Af- South Africa ball
cap, and I thought, "Oh, I'll take it,"

not realizing what was gonna transpire.

So we go out to eat with this pastor
and his wife from Pensacola, and

he looks at me and he said, "Danny,
why are you wearing that ball cap?"

And I sort of looked at him and shrugged
my shoulders, and I went, "I, I just

picked it out whenever I came down here."

Well, he and his wife are contemplating
about working in South Africa- Wow â¦ or

staying here, whether to go there, sort
of swap their times back and forth.

Mm-hmm.

So that was a confirmation to them- Right

that they really need to think.

And I, I had no idea.

I just picked a ball cap up.

Yeah, for you it was just,
"This one looks good."

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

But it's the steps of a righteous man
are ordered, and I don't think I grasp

the significance of the little bitty
things that he orders in my life- Mm-hmm

that, that I don't even
realize how valuable it is.

Sometimes I'm cognizant of hearing the
Holy Spirit- Mm-hmm â¦ and sometimes

I just think I go and do things.

Yeah.

But yet he's still ordering my steps.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Causing all those ripples
that reach other people.

Yes.

'Cause you have your
heart in tune with him.

Right.

He's able to tell you without
you really re- realizing it.

Exactly.

Yes.

You know, um, when Kerrye, when you asked
us if we would do this, I, I started

praying about it and, and I guess one of
the things that, that came to my mind was,

um, I, I just read something the other day
that Mark Twain wrote, and it said, "The

two most important days in your lifeâ¦"

It are the day you were born
and the day you find out why.

And so I thought- Hmm.

That's good.

It is good.

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, you know, um, I think
one of the, the reasons that we, that

we are blessed and that we are, um,
doing what we do is because I think God

has given us a purpose, and e- everyone
a plan and a purpose for their life.

And so I remember early on, onâ¦

with all of our grandkids, I would
pray, you know, "God has a special

plan and purpose for your life,"
you know, and I would just try to

talk to them about that so much.

But, um, I think, um, for me, one of the
things that's helped so much is to, to

walk in what God has called us to walk in.

And I believe it's, it'sâ¦

w- we just have a heart for people.

We have a heart for, for young
couples and, and I know, umâ¦

And I think that's one of the
things that's just kept us-

Mm-hmm â¦ um, going and, umâ¦

But, um, we do always talk about
that we will finish strong.

One of the scriptures that I love
is in Psalms, uh, 92, and it says,

"Even in old age, I will remain vital
and green and still produce fruit."

And so I want to do that.

I want to continue to produce
fruit in my life, even at 73.

Um, and, um, I, I wanna just trust
God, and I think that's the Just

the gist of what, of now having
more peace and contentment and joy

in my life is trusting God that he
will do what he says he will do.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And so even when things are uncomfortable,
even when he stretches me to do things

that, that are difficult, I thank him for
that because it's good to be stretched.

Yeah.

And I wanna be stretched-
Yeah â¦ in my older years.

You know, I want to be, um, to be vital
and green and s- and still produce fruit.

Well- That's so good.

I think y'all are definitely
examples- Yeah â¦ of that.

100%.

Um, so my mom has Parkinson's, and one
of the things that her neurologist always

tells her is, like, to still keep doing
all of the things that she can still do,

because when you stop doing those things,
when you quit using it, you lose it.

Yes.

Um, so I mean, it's
the same kind of thing.

Like, you, you want to keep
doing the things that you know

that God has called you to do.

Mm-hmm.

Because if you, if you slow down,
will you lose that, you know?

Yes.

I thinkâ¦

I don't know.

I think that if you slowed down and
kinda let that go a little bit, I

do think that if you decided, like,
"God, I wanna pick this back up," I

think he'd be faithful to be like-

"All right, let's go."

Yes.

'Cause I just, like I said earlier,
if you have air in your lungs,

I mean, I think God'll use you.

Yes.

I think he's waiting
and wanting to use you.

Yes.

And as soon as you give the
go-ahead, he's like, "Come on.

Buckle up."

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

But when we look at, um, examples in
the Bible and, you know, just Abraham

pops in my head about, you know, his,
his older years were the best and G-

he was not done, God was not done with
him and, you know, he was like, "You're

gonna be the father of many nations."

And my, one of my favorite passages
is Abraham 4, what, you know, what he

was saying, "No, I'm gonna believe"â¦

Abraham.

That's Abraham, right?

You said Abraham.

Romans 4.

We'll edit that.

It's about Abraham.

In Romans 4.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, uh, where he's like against all
hope, Abraham in hope believed, and

he was talking about even though his
body- In that way could not produce.

Yes.

But it was, you know, they were
both past time, but then God, His

promise is always gonna be- Yes.

Yes.

You know, it's, it's going
to happen, and look whatâ¦

I mean, he had Isaac and, you know, itâ¦

He promised it and it happened.

Yes.

Yep.

But he was not a young man, you know?

Right.

And I thinkâ¦

I, I hope, I mean, I do feel like
there's so much, um, in, you know,

especially since I'm getting older
too, grandma now, um, God's not done.

Sometimes I wish He was.

I'll just have to say, sometimes
I'm like, "I'm ready when You are.

Like, if You wanna come back for
everybody or- Yes â¦ just me."

I mean, sometimes it- it's just
that overwhelming, where I'm

just like, "Oh my goodness."

But I, I will not be done, done
until He says that I am done.

Yes.

You know, that's been myâ¦

in my mind for many years.

When You say I'm done, I'm
done, but not till then.

Like, I'm here to do it until You say
stop, and He's not gonna say stop.

I don't think He says stop when
you're that willing, you know?

Yeah.

And I, I think y'all are
great examples to everyone.

Like- Thank you.

Thank you â¦ you just keep on, and
you said something earlier, I was like,

what a great thing, you know, and I've
thought about this before, about the

Holy Spirit being our intercessor.

Yes.

Who else do we need to
pray with us besides Him?

Yes.

You know?

He's the best.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I know we ask other people's,
other people to pray with us, but if

that's all you have, what's- It's enough.

That's enough.

Yes.

Yep.

Yes.

He's there praying with us.

He's our intercessor.

He knows how to pray.

Yes.

You know?

And Jesus is praying, you know, He's
our intercessor too, you know, and I

think- Mm-hmm â¦ three in one, but
anyway, that stuck out to me so far.

I was like, "Yes," you know, 'cause
sometimes you don't know how to pray.

You're just like, "I don't
know what to say," but you do.

That's right.

Mm-hmm.

So you can pray through me, but-
That's right I can remember years

ago, um, Chad Duvall, who's a pastor
down at- Bell's Chapel down- Yes

at Adkins.

Mm-hmm.

He was talking about whenever
you pray in the Spirit.

Mm-hmm.

He said that's the purest and
holiest prayer that you can pray.

Mm-hmm.

And so every time that the opportunity
arises for me to pray in the Spirit,

I'm, I'm- Yeah â¦ thinking, "This
is the purest and holiest prayer that

I can- Yeah â¦ pray right here."

Even if you don't know what you're saying.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So important.

Yeah.

Well, Jill, you was talking
about, you know, keeping on.

Yeah.

You know, not, not backing off.

Because Debbie and I
love to hike, you know.

We'veâ¦

Ever since we've been married, we've
been hiking and, and, and we've hiked

all over the United States, you know.

Uh, probably the, uh, the longest and
hardest hike we've, we've ever done i-

is we was in, uh, uh, the Grand Tetons,
and so we hiked 15 miles one day- Wow

â¦ with a 3,000 feet elevational change.

Oh, man.

Geez Louise.

And it just wore us out.

Were your lungs hurting andâ¦

Well, it did for Debbie.

Debbie's like a mountain goat.

She hikes everywhere, anywhere.

It doesn't bother with me.

I'm like an old goat or
an old mule, you know.

It just wears me out.

Yeah.

So I have to sit and rest.

I feel like that's Ben and I, but flipped.

Ben's the mountain goat, and I'm
just trudging behind like, "Wait."

Yeah.

Well, there was a sign
at the end of that trail.

We thought we were at the end
of it, and then there was a

sign that said- Yeah â¦ .8

miles to the road, and I think
that's when I c- started crying.

Oh.

I don't know if I can do this.

Yeah, but, but s- so we've always hiked.

We've always enjoyed hiking, but we've
noticed lately that we have to force

ourselves to get up and go hiking now.

Like last Friday, I asked Debbie, I said,
"Do you wanna go to Mount Nebo and hike?"

And she said, "Not really."

But she said, "I know we need to."

So, so we did.

We went up and, and we
hiked the Rim Trail.

Mm-hmm.

But, but it's one of those things that,
just like you said, Jill- Mm-hmm â¦ if,

if you start backing off and- Mm-hmm

quit doing these things.

And, and so that's in the physical
realm of just- Yes â¦ hiking.

But whenever you start thinking
about, "Well, it's okay if I

sleep late today and I don't pray.

Well, it's okay if I don't read
the Word today- Mm-hmm â¦ you

know, if I miss this part.

Well, it's okay if I watch TV a little
bit longer and I don't do this," you know.

Yeah.

If, if we're not careful, we
can slide back into the things

that doesn't produce life.

Listen, Pam Turner- I knew you
were gonna say that because

it goes so lo- good with this.

It does.

Pam Turner used this phrase that she
said that the enemy was, like, rocking

her to sleep, like rocking her into- Mm

complacency, and that has stuck with
me so much 'cause it was just such a

good- Mm-hmm visual It's okay for it.

It's all right Yes.

I'm tired.

Right.

Yes.

It's okay.

You'll do it later.

It's all right.

It's okay.

It's one day.

Yes.

You know, whatever.

Yes, yes, yes.

And it's just this smooth little easy
thing, and I just thought, oh my goodness.

Yeah, that brought conviction to me too.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly.

But it was good.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yep.

One, one of the things that, that I
have noticed over the years is, is

with, with men and with the men's group
that I have, 'cause sometimes I'll ask

them- Mm-hmm â¦ you know, um, how, how
many of you feel like you're worthy?

And, and it's, it's amazing how
many people, how many men feel

like that they are not worthy for
being a Christian, being a child of

God, being saved, being whatever.

And, and so the old patterns, the
old thought life, the old things

seem to just, if we're not careful,
they cling to us, and they affect

how we think about ourselves and
how we think about God, who God is.

Yeah.

And, and to not grasp that we are
children of the Most High God.

Yeah.

We have power.

We have authority.

We have the ability to bind and loose.

Mm-hmm.

One of the scriptures that i- in my prayer
room, I have a dry erase board, and I

have this scripture written up there.

I, I think it's Luke 10:19,
and, and Jesus is talking.

He says, "I have given you the
authority to trample upon scorpions

and, and, and not snakes, butâ¦"

Serpents.

Yeah.

To trample upon s- scorpions and serpents.

Yeah.

And then he says, "And nothing
by any means, and over all the

powers of the enemy, and nothing
by any means shall hurt you."

See, whenever we start
grasping who we are- Yeah

in Christ and the power and the
authority that he's given us.

We had one of our grandsons come, and he
was spending the night with us and, and,

uh, I don't know, Caden was eight years
old maybe at the time And so whenever

he was gonna go to bed that night,
he's, he was talking about being afraid.

Mm-hmm.

And so I have the scripture over in 1
Timothy 1:7, the scripture says, "I've

not given you a spirit of fear, but of
power and of love and of a sound mind."

Right.

So I wrote that.

I had it written down on
a, on a three-by-five card.

On an index card, yeah.

Yes.

Had it on a three-by-five card.

And so I gave it to Caden,
and I said, "Read that."

And so he read it.

I said, "That's who you are."

And so then I gave him a flashlight.

Mm-hmm.

And so I said, "Tonight, whenever you
go to bed, if fear comes on you, turn

that flashlight on and read that card."

So Mia, his older sister, two years older,
she was sleeping in the same bedroom.

Well, next morning she said, "I woke up
last night and Caden had the cover pulled

over his head with his flashlight on."

Aw.

"And he was reading that
three-by-five card."

Oh, that's good.

And soâ¦

But, but to be able to grasp
who we are in Christ- Mm-hmm

and to understand we have powers
over the powers of darkness.

Mm-hmm.

We have the ability to bind and
loose, and, and to be able then

to walk in the fullness of that.

Yeah.

Right.

And, and that, I think that is, I
think maybe that is where Where I

have, in years past, fallen short
to not grasp who I was- Mm-hmm

and the ability that I have,
and to be able to stand in the

gap for things like that, so.

Yeah.

It's super easy, I think, for us to lean
on our own understanding of like what, how

to, how one becomes worthy of something.

Yes.

Like that we- Yes.

Yes â¦ haven't done anything to
earn this, and that's biblical.

Like, you cannot earn salvation.

You cannot earn your spot.

But that doesn't make you unworthy.

Exactly.

It, it- Exactly.

It is, is just like God to completely spin
the whole narrative and be like, "What

makes sense carnally does not make sense."

Exactly.

And that's by design.

Yes.

Like, you can't make it make sense.

It is a gift.

Yes.

Done.

Yeah.

Yes.

You know?

Yeah.

I love that.

That's good.

That is really good.

And, um, I thought of something
I was gonna say about it.

Um- Sorry.

I was listen- no.

I was listening to, um, Kenneth
Hagin, who I, I'm notâ¦

I mean, I just was look- go- scrolling
through YouTube to put on something

while I was trying to go to sleep.

I have a hard time.

You know I have a hard
time falling asleep.

Yes.

I think that we've tried every, or
you've suggested every oil I could try.

And, um, nothing has worked
except listening to a sermon

or scriptures or something will
eventually make me go to sleep.

But I was listening to Kenneth
Hagin, and he said, 'cause heâ¦

It had something to do
with sleep in the title.

I was like, "Well,
let's see what he says."

And, um, he said, um, "Whatever you're
worrying about, um, right now, uh,

you're afraid of something, you have
been praying over something that's not

here yet," um, he said, "I want you to
say this, and then just go to sleep."

And I was like, "Okay, I'm ready."

And he said- â¦ "Just
say, 'It is finished.

All glory be to God.'"

Mm-hmm.

"That's all you need to say."

Mm.

So I was like, "Okay."

And I said it several times over
different things that I've been

praying, worrying, scared about, or
whatever, and I went to sleep, you know?

And when you apply any principle
or God's word or whatever

to anything, it can't fail.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

It's not that He won't fail.

He can't fail.

Right.

You know, He just can't.

Yes.

So, and His word can't.

Yes.

So, you know, that was very good.

I think giving your grandson a scripture
to stand on, you know, for fear was great.

Yes.

And he'll remember that ev- forever.

Yeah.

He probably will.

Yeah.

It's good.

That's so good.

That's, that's something I'm tucking away
for- Yeah â¦ future grandkid issues.

Yeah.

I don't have any yet.

Yet.

And they don't need to come for a while.

But, you know.

Um, what would you say to, uh, we've
asked this question before to people

on this podcast, but, you know, one
of the questions that I get a lot

from kids is, "How do you know ifâ¦"

You know, but I know
adults with this idea.

How do you know if-- how do
you know you're hearing God?

How do you know who, who's talking to you?

Like, most people don't hear
an audible voice, and just

what if people asked you that?

Like, how do you know that you're hearing
God, and how do you learn to hear God?

Because I think that's some- what
some people struggle with, and

you can think about it 'cause
we can take out all the pauses.

Yeah.

I, I think, I think one of the,
the foundational things that you

have to have i- is you need to have
a basis of the Word in your life.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I have found out that,
that the more that I read the Word,

but not just read it, but ponder it
and think about it, then, then the

more I have a peace about things.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so whenever I'm trying
to figure out if that was God or

not, I, I think it's over in, um,
Colossians 3 and 15, it says, in the

Amplified it says, "Let the peace of
God act as an umpire in your heart."

My, my son's a baseball coach.

I like that.

Yes.

So I, I see the umpires.

I don't always agree with
the umpires, you know?

Yeah.

But- Well, let's not get it twisted.

There's a lot of times God calls a, a
pitch or something, I'm like, "Really?"

You know?

Yes.

But, but it says, "Let the peace-"

God act as an umpire in your
heart, you know, with the

decisions that you're making.

So, so whenever, whenever there's
things within your mind that you're,

you're, you're trying to figure
out, is, is, is there a peace there?

Yeah.

And, and that, that isn't always the
case, but I found that most of the time

if, if there's an unsettledness there,
if, if something doesn't seem quite

right, there may be a reason for that.

Right.

And, and then just the other thing
about, about being, about hearing

the voice of God, about being
able to hear him speak to you, is

sometimes we just have to be still.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Like if you want somebody to
talk to you, you gotta shut up.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

I, I can remember years ago, I
worked at the nuclear plant, and

there was a guy that I worked with,
his name was Carl Jones And, and

he looked like, uh, Li'l Abner.

You remember Li'l Abner?

Yes.

Yeah.

He looked likeâ¦

He would fit Li'l Abner perfectly.

That's funny.

But, but he had the ability
to listen whenever someone was

talking, and you felt like you
had his total undivided attention.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember we, our, our crew had a,
uh, uh, a cookout one time, and, and so I

looked in there and, in the living room,
and Carl Jones was sitting in there,

and, and all of the women were sitting
around him and, and someone was talking,

and, and you could tell he was listening
to everything that they were saying.

And so I've learned, just like
you said- Yeah â¦ Jill, sometimes

you just have to be quiet.

You have to shut up.

Yeah.

But whenever you do, you give the
Holy Spirit time to speak to you.

And like you said, you don't hear an
audible voice, but, but there's just

something inside of you that you think,
"Okay, this is the way that I should go."

Yeah.

And so it- Yeah â¦ it, and it,
it's a, it's a learning process.

Mm-hmm.

Debbie and I have been marriedâ¦

33.

33 years.

We've been married 33 years, but, but
I have learned over the 33 years that

sometimes whenever she talks to me, it
isn't necessarily the words that she says.

It can be the way that she says it.

It can be the body posture.

You know, sometimes whenever we're
hearing what God is speaking to us, itâ¦

I, I think me personally, I think
he speaks to us in different ways.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but, but I think being still
and just listening is one of

the best things that you can do.

And, and with me, lots of times, whenever
I'm stilling and listening, then sometimes

a scripture will come to my mind- Mm-hmm

or, or something like that.

Yeah.

And, and then my younger brother, Carl,
he told me, he said, "You know, I have

learned that many times the voice of
the Holy Spirit sounds like my wife."

Soâ¦

That's, that's interesting.

So- Like, I'll, I will take it.

Yeah.

Yes.

Thank you.

Ben, are you listening?

Yeah.

Hmm.

That's funny.

Yeah.

I think, um, one of the things I was
gonna say is when y- we've referenced

being in the Word a lot in terms of,
like, learning to understand God's voice

and, and His, um, His attitudes about
stuff- Mm-hmm â¦ and His will for us.

And I've, in my own time of reflection,
I've been thinking about, like- people

who study art and music and things
like that where, you know, you can, you

can become an expert on one painter,
and you can see something that has

not been identified as that painter,
but you know, oh, that's Picasso.

I don't know, whoever.

Yes.

And you know because you're so familiar
with their other work that you don't

need someone to say, "This is Picasso."

And it's like, that's how we need to get.

We need to be so involved in
God's word- Mm-hmm â¦ that we,

we don't even need anyone else
to point it out to us 'cause- Yes

we're so well tuned with what's
already there that it lines up.

Yes.

It, it looks like it, it has
the same feel, the same brush

strokes, all of the things.

And so we can confidently
move forward knowing I, I am

familiar enough, I know this.

Yes.

And I think one of the, one of the things
Danny brought up was, was being still

before God, and I, I remember thinking
at times that, you know, I needed

to be the one talking all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And like it's been brought up, it's
just a- â¦ it's a quiet settledness.

It's a, it's a settled confidence, I
think, that just comes over you, and,

um, you don't audibly hear His voice.

But, but when you do spend time in the
Word and you're just quiet before Him, I

think that, that you will, you will know.

He says, you know, "This is the way.

Walk in it."

Mm-hmm.

And, and I, I believe that.

I believe that He will give direction
when we just are quiet before Him.

Um- Yeah, that's good.

Yes.

Yeah.

I think that the feeling of peace and-
Yes â¦ being settled- Yes â¦ is the, the

thing I try to remember, like when I'mâ¦

So many thoughts are mine, so many
thoughts are God's, so many thoughts are

the devil's, and who am I listening to?

But when I'm anxious and
worried, that's not God.

Right?

Right.

Yes.

You know, He doesn't
lead us down that path.

And a lot of times when I'm getting
ready is when I'm getting ready

for the day is when the devil,
or I know it's not the devil.

It's whoever he sent or whatever,
who's, who sent to mess with me.

Whoever's assignment it is that day.

Yeah.

And, um, was one day a couple years
ago, just getting ready, and these

thoughts of just negativity, and
I was buying into it at first.

I was like, "I know, I know."

And then I was like, "Oh, this isn'tâ¦

This is this thing, you
know, talking to me."

Mm-hmm.

And I just started talking to it.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And I was like, "You know,
you've talked to me a long time.

I don't know how long
you've been here, years.

I don't know.

But I know you've talked to me a lot.

Well, I'm gonna talk to you."

Yeah.

There you go.

So I just started telling itâ¦

Well, just saying, I remember saying,
"How's it feel to know that you don't

ever have a second chance- Oh, yeah Yes

at making things right, you know?"

And I just, I didn't talk very
long, and I just felt peace.

Yes.

I felt like it left, you know.

It was mad, I guess.

You know, 'cause I was pointing
out- Took its toys and went home.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Well, that didn'tâ¦

That was quick."

Yeah.

You know, but when you start
reminding the harassing spirit

of its future- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

it leaves.

And that's one of the things, I'm glad
you brought that up, because that's

really one of the things that Danny and
I have been trying to be intentional

about lately, is our thoughts.

Mm-hmm.

Taking those thoughts captive,
um- We've been studying and, and,

um, just talk- and just, just how
much our thoughts can control us.

And, and you just know when a
thought is not from God, you know?

Yeah.

You just, you just know that.

But it's, but it is recognizing
that some of those negative things,

some of those oppressive things,
that it's not God, you know?

Yeah.

It's notâ¦

We were studying this, this one
book, and it's, and it says that

this, um, neurosurgeon had done some
studies, and he said 70-- he said

over 70% of the thoughts that we think
throughout the day are not even true.

Mm.

And he said over 90% of the thoughts
that we have, we tend to think every day.

So therefore, we are allowing lies to come
into our, to our, our head, to our mind.

Yeah.

Um, and so w- we just have to beâ¦

We've, we've d- we just stop.

We'll even say, "Nope," you know.

"I know that's a lie."

And- Yeah â¦ or just take, you know,
quote a scripture, keep our confession

positive and, um, but just refuse
those thoughts that are not from God.

Because I can do the same.

I can sit down, and my thoughts
just start going everywhere.

Yeah.

Especially when I'm trying to pray.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

But- Yeah â¦ just recognizing.

Yeah.

I think that sometimes it
starts out a little bit true.

That's how he started-
Yes â¦ in the, in Eden.

Yes.

He takes everything we've done.

You know, he's like, "Well,
did God really sayâ¦"

Mm-hmm.

You know, that's was his first
line, "Did God really say this?"

And he just twists it just enough.

Yes.

You know.

There's just enough reality in it,
just enough truth- Yeah â¦ to make

you go- Yes â¦ to make you stop-
Yes â¦ and think and question and wonder.

Right, right.

But it turns out he just carries it
too far, you know, and it's just lies.

Yeah.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Were you gonna say something?

Yes.

I might have interrupted you.

I don't think so.

Okay.

Well, um, yeah, I, I
do struggle with that.

I mean, since that time of
confronting that harassing spirit,

it's been easier to point it out.

Um, but I also have to admit, sometimes
I let it go for too, way too long.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Oh, me.

'Cause I, I get mad.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

You know, I let my thoughtsâ¦

Yeah.

I'm a, I'm not the one that's
done anything, you know?

Sure.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, kinda like the, uh,
prodigal son's brother.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

I've been here working this whole time.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

But I do tend to, uh, relate to
him a little bit too much, I think.

Just like- I think most of us do.

Yeah.

If you're not a prodigal,
then you're the brother.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

'Cause, uh, those are the two options
in the story- â¦ 'cause God is the dad.

So- Yeah â¦ like, there you go.

Yeah.

But yeah, I let it go too long sometimes.

But I'm quicker- In the long
run about like, okay, I've,

I've gotta cast this down.

Yes.

Right.

Cast down imaginations.

I've had to reframe a lot of thoughts.

Like, I will start out with
just objective reality.

Like, the reality is this situation is
terrible, blah, blah, blah, whatever,

whatever situation it is, you know?

Um, the roof is leaking.

Great.

This is not a great situation.

This is awful, blah, blah, blah.

Any, any number of things.

And I really have to stop and
think about, like how quickly

reality can become negativity.

Yes.

And you have to switch it around
and really purposefully say-

Mm-hmm â¦ "Is the roof leaking?

Yeah.

But can it be mended?

Yeah, it can.

Is it gonna be the most
convenient or comfortable thing?

No.

But am I, do I have the ability?

Yeah."

Yes.

So it's okay.

Yes.

You know, you just have toâ¦

It's like you have to become
a master of spin in order to

deal with- Yeah â¦ the devil.

Yes.

'Cause he twists everything, so
you have to untwist it in order

to get back to the truth of God.

That's right.

That's good.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

But it's just amazing.

Deb- Debbie referred to it, but, uh,
the, the book we're looking at, talking

about, uh, uh, the mind and, and the
neural surgeon and everything, a- a-

and he's talking about how, how science
is catching up to what the word of

God has said for thousands of years.

Mm-hmm.

You know, over in Romans 12:1 and 2, he,
he talks about the renewing of your mind.

Mm-hmm.

And then in, in, in, uh, 2
Corinthians 10:4 and 5, he talks

about bringing our thoughts captive.

Mm-hmm.

And, and he says that as you start
doing that, you, you are actually

rewiring your brain b- because-
Mm-hmm â¦ i- i- if you're not careful,

thoughts will flow the easiest path.

Yeah.

Yep.

And so if, if you have negative thoughts-
Yeah â¦ if you have these kind of things,

then that, that's the easy thoughts to
continue to come back and back and back.

And so what you have to do
is you have to replace that.

Yes.

Right.

You just replace those thoughts, and
you, you replace it with positive things.

Mm-hmm.

The best way to do is
replace it with the word.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And so then, and so that's the reason
I have this card about the fruit of

the spirit on my three by five card.

Mm-hmm.

So I carry it around with me, and so
I read this three or four times a day.

And so one of the things that it
talks on here is it talks about joy,

because I realized the other day, I
thought, "Where's the joy in my life?"

Mm-hmm.

You know?

And, and so you start realizing some
of these things have slid in the way.

Well, how come?

So then you start trying to
not necessarily figure out how

come, but how do I replace this?

Well, this card says the fruit
of the Holy Spirit is joy.

Yeah.

I don't have to manufacture that.

No.

I just have to walk in
what he's already done.

Yes.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

And so I go through, and so I start
looking at this and it says, "Love,

joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faith, gentleness,

humility," which is gentleness,
self-centeredness or self-control.

Mm-hmm.

Not self-centered.

Yeah.

Self-control.

Yeah.

And, and so it, itâ¦

So now then I'm, I have to start
replacing my thoughts instead

of the negativity about things.

Right.

Then I replace it with the positive
things, and the best way that you can

do that is the renewing of your mind
by renewing it with the word of God.

Right.

Yes.

And so the more that you do
that, then it's easier to think

on those things- Mm-hmm â¦ than
to think on the negative things.

Yeah, yeah.

And just like anything
else, it becomes habitual.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

So the more often that you do it,
the, the more you will then just

immediately lean into- Yes â¦ this
is what I do when this happens.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's your default.

Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

So no longer do you have to think on these
negative things because- Yeah â¦ we,

a- and I'm sure y'all have been around
people that, that it just seems like their

whole life is so negative about things.

Yeah.

Yes.

And you go, "Oh, life is
so much more than that."

God intended us to have a joyful life.

It's not always perfect.

It's not always without hardships.

Mm-hmm.

But he wants us to enjoy life.

Yeah.

And, and I was thinking the
other day about the scripture

where he talks about his burden
is easy and his burden is light.

Mm-hmm.

We carry burdens.

God places burdens on our hearts-
Right â¦ all the time- Yeah â¦ for

people that we pray for, people that
we intercede for and everything, but he

doesn't mean for them to be oppressive,
hard burdens that we can't bear.

Yes.

Yeah.

But, but he desires
for us to bear burdens.

Yeah.

And he says, "My yoke is easy."

Yeah.

Well, the reason his yoke is easy, uh, I
don't know if you've ever seen these old

Westerns where they have two oxen- Yeah.

Yes â¦ you know- Yeah â¦ pulling
a wagon- Mm-hmm â¦ you

know, or something like that.

Well, the reason his yoke is easy
is because we're teamed up with him.

Exactly,

and he is- We're teamed
up with his Holy Spirit

carrying the lion's share-
Yes â¦ of the load.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

And so i- i- if we can grasp who we are
in Christ- Mm-hmm â¦ and grasp that,

yes, we go through difficult times,
yes, we go through hard times- Mm-hmm

â¦ yes, we go through seasons that are
difficult, but he's always there with us.

He's always a- as, as Robert
Casey y- likes to say-

he, he carry, he, he
does the heavy lifting.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Yeah.

We, we do the easyâ¦

He does the heavy lifting.

Yeah.

But he wants us to beâ¦

He wants us to partner with him-
Yeah â¦ in the things that he's doing.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

And when you're talking, like,
there's so much, there's a

difference between joy and happiness.

Yes.

You know, happy is fleeting.

It's a feeling of that's here for a
little bit and gone, but joy is always-

Yes â¦ steady and even when we're
going through stuff- Yes â¦ we're

supposed to count it all joy.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

You know, that's a, that's a good,
you know, thing to remember for sure.

Yeah.

It's very good.

I can remember whenever 9/11 happened
and, and that one lady that was there and

her husband was killed in the, the plane
crash that crashed in the countryside in

Pennsylvania, and, and he had a saying.

Remember that?

Let's roll.

Yeah.

Remember that?

Mm-hmm.

But I remember they showed
her a number of times.

She was actually there whenever
the President Bush addressed

Congress and, and she was sitting
up in, in the, in the balcony.

But, but I remember she, she, to me,
she always seemed to have such peace.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, and she was so together.

And, and we hadâ¦

And, and I had thought
about, how does she do that?

And, and so I've always wondered,
never knew, I've always wondered- Yeah

â¦ after that if she was a Christian.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Because I thought she exhibits what the
fruit of the Holy Spirit would be in, in

their lives, because I have seen, I've
been part of, you know, whenever something

real tragic happens, you know, it just
seems like your whole world falls apart.

Yeah.

And hers, it did not seem that way.

Yeah.

And so I thoughtâ¦

A- and so I'm, I'm on the outside
looking in, and so I think

about how many people are on the
outside looking in at our lives.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, and how much do we affect
people and we don't even know it.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

We, we have no idea that the people
are watching and, and they're

seeing how do we handle things.

100%.

Yeah.

Oh, that's good.

Yeah.

It's really good.

So no pressure, you know, but make
sure you're handling it right.

Yeah.

People are watching you.

Yeah.

And is there anything else
that y'all wanna share?

'Cause we, we do have a question that
we tell, ask everybody at the end,

but- Mm-hmm â¦ y'all can keep sharing
'cause we could keep listening forever.

Yeah.

Oh, y'all are kind.

Anything else?

We can- We, we just feel
honored y'all invited us.

Yes, we do.

Oh.

Yes, we do.

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Thank you so much.

I mean, definitely you were at
the top of our list when we start.

We- Yeah â¦ it was, and, uh- We made a
whole list, and we're like- And y'all on

top â¦ "We have to have them" For sure.

Thank you.

Um, no, because, but you're just such
an example of, you know, how we should,

we should pattern after people like you
because you are steady, you are faithful.

We can seeâ¦

And I'm sure not everything's perfect
all the time in your life, you know, but

you couldn't tell because you're coming
to church and you're worshiping and- But

I think that's also one of the things
that is admirable and is something that

makes people want to model themselves
after what you're doing, is like you are

also transparent enough to be like, "We
don't have it together all the time."

Mm-hmm.

"Here's how we got through that.

Here's what we do when we're f- when
we feel like we're falling short.

We dive into the Word, we do, you know,
X, Y, or Z, and then we move forward."

So even though from the outside
looking in, it's very easy to be like,

"Oh, they've got it all together.

They don't have any problems," you know?

And, "Man, I wish I could
be like Danny and Debbie.

That's great."

But really

It's just reality.

Yeah.

Like, you're just real.

You're living in this world and you're
gonna- Exactly â¦ go through stuff.

Exactly.

Well, and just one thing I wanted to add
is that one of the things, the reason we

have a heart for young people and just
for people is because we have been through

things, but yet we always had people-

Yes

in our lives.

Yes.

Older people in our lives that spoke
life to us, like Betty and Bud Avants.

Yes.

And I mean, I could justâ¦

There were, there were several
couples that came around us.

Leonard and Jan Kraut.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Leonard and Jan andâ¦

But, but there were just, um,
several couples that came around

us and supported us and spoke life
into us, and I think that's so

important, and that's why- Mm-hmm

fellowship is so important- Yes â¦ is
because- Yes â¦ people need to know.

They, you don't have to know their story,
but if you just put an arm around them

and give them a hug and, or pray with
them, or at least make them feel seen.

Yeah.

Um, but, but pe- we need each other.

Danny and I need y'all, you know.

Yeah.

We, we do.

We need y'all, and we need the, the, the
fellowship that we just feel so grateful

that God has brought- Yeah â¦ you know,
young people- Yes â¦ older people,

people older than us into our lives.

Yeah.

And so that's one of the things that
helps to keep you strong is stay plugged

in because it makes a difference.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Church is important.

Yes.

Jill said, shared a verse on On social
media â¦ on social media the other day.

Yeah.

And you can tell about it 'cause
it was really good, about church.

I, it just, um, I don't even remember
how we got on the subject, but we were

talking about how there's a, I don't know,
some people out there seem to believe

that going to church is unnecessary.

Oh.

'Cause we are the church, so
if I am the church, then why

do I need to go to church?

And I just was like, I
mean, Jesus went to church.

Like, the Bible is real clear.

It says Jesus went to
church as was his custom.

As was his custom, he went
and he read in church.

Well, not church- The temple,
yeah â¦ but in the temple.

Around other, yeah- Around
just other believers.

Yes.

And like, if it was Jesus's custom, uh,
first point, point number one, if the

Son of God- Mm â¦ and, and God himself
is making it a point for it to be his

custom to go to church, then who am I to
be like, "I don't need to go to church"?

Mm-hmm.

Right?

If he felt the needâ¦

Okay.

Point number two, if I'm supposed to model
myself after Christ, if I'm supposed to

be Christ-like, literally the easiest
way to begin is to just go to church.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

That's true.

Walk in the door.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

That's true.

I mean, you're not gonna- Uh, there's
several churches in our area, but- Yeah

you're not gonna agree with everything
and every single one of them, but-

Mm-mm â¦ that's not the point.

It- Exactly â¦ Jesus
is where we should go.

Yeah.

Even Brother Dean says there's
gonna be church in heaven.

Yep.

He gives the scripture.

I can't even remember what scripture
that is now, but- Me neither, but yeah.

I think one of the misconceptions we have
about going to church is, i- is there's a

scripture over in Hebrews 10, and, and I
love reading out of the Amplified Bible.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, it, it just helps me out a lot.

Yeah.

But i- in Hebrews 10:24-25 it
says, "And let us consider and

give attentive, continuous care
to watching over one another."

Mm-hmm.

If you don't go to church,
how do you do that?

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, the Bible also s- Ben,
Ben rightfully told me, he was like,

"Also, you know, it says, 'Don't forse-
forsake the assembly of yourse- Yes.

Yes â¦ Like, hello.

Yes.

This is important.

Yes.

And, and God says it in the Bible.

How are we making an argument that I
don't have to go because I am the ch-

It, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Yes.

But that's just a dogma thing.

Like, I'm not saying people are bad,
I'm just saying for me, and according

to my Bible and the way that I'm
looking at it, it seems pretty clear

that we should be going to church.

Yes.

Yeah.

It, and it, and it goes on to say,
it says, uh, "And let us consider and

give a continus- continuous care to
watching over one another, studying

hu- how we may stir up, stimulate,
and excite to love and helpful deeds

and noble activities, not forsaking or
neglecting to assemble together- Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

There it is â¦ as, as believers,
as the habit of some people."

But, and this is what, this is, I
think this is one of the things that,

that the church has fallen away from.

But whenever you have fellowship with
one another, it says, "But admonishing,

warning, urging, and encouraging one
another, and all the more faithfully

as you see the day approaching."

If, if we can get the concept that, that
we go to church not for us, but for y'all.

Yes.

For somebody else.

Mm-hmm.

And, and if we can understand
that whenever somebody comes in

that door, we don't know what they
went through the night before.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

We don't know what kind of life they have.

We don't know what kind of
encouragement they need.

But if, if we can be the church-
Right â¦ if we can see somebody and go

up and, and say, "Hey, how you doing?"

Shake their hands, and then
being able to allow the Holy

Spirit to speak to our hearts.

Maybe they need prayer.

Maybe they need encouragement.

Maybe they just needed
somebody to say hi to them.

Yeah.

To encourage them.

I mean, our, to me, our whole
purpose- Not the whole purpose.

One of the major purposes of
going to church is to build up

the body of Christ around us.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

We go in order to be able to
worship the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mm-hmm.

We go to be encouraged.

We have an awesome pastor that brings
a great word to us on a consistent

basis on Sunday mornings- Yeah

and Wednesday nights.

But, but if we understand God desires
to use me- Mm-hmm â¦ and if you can

understand God desires to use me, and,
and I, and I think about it 'cause

Debbie and I joke about it, but, but
basically I was, I was raised poor.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Out, out in the country.

And, and, and whenever I was in
high school, if I had to give a book

report, I'd skip class that day.

I was so backwards and so shy.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

I, I would not stand in front of people.

Wow.

It embarrassed the daylights out
of me, and I would not do it.

But whenever I accepted Christ,
things started changing.

Mm-hmm.

And so over the years, he has given
me confidence- Mm-hmm â¦ not in

myself, but in who abides within me.

Yeah.

So if we can understand God desires
to use us, and I am constantly

amazed, God desires to use me?

Yeah.

I mean, I s- I stand in-
Yeah â¦ awe of that.

Yeah.

But we're supposed to build
the body of Christ up.

Well- We need one another â¦ I think
that, um, for me, and I don'tâ¦

My, my dad

anyway, my dad is, he's a character,
but one of the things that he said to

me when I was, I don't know, probably
a teenager, and just knowing, like, the

tiny, tiny little church that we were
going to, whatever, he said that church

is like, church is recharging a battery.

Like- Yes â¦ church is time for God
to recharge our batteries so that

we can go out and we can affect stuff.

Uh, we can go and be busy and
work outside of the church walls.

We charge in the church, we go out, and
we do- That's good â¦ the, the things.

And I think that it's very easy to think

When people come into church, then
we can, we can meet their need,

we can do whatever, but that's
not the intention of church.

Like you're saying, like
church is for the believer.

Yes, we want unbelievers to come in
and, you know, have their needs met

and whatever should they come in, but
that's not the intention of church.

Church is to build the, the body and
then the body goes out- Yes â¦ and

makes disciples and brings them in
so that they can be fed and charged.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

And, and I'll say Debbie
does such an awesome job.

Weâ¦

About a year or so ago, we, we took
our granddaughter back and we meet

the mom and dad, the four-year-old, we
meet the mom and dad down in Conway.

And so we went down to Conway,
and so we was gonna-- We had a

little bit of time afterwards, so
we went over to McDonald's to eat.

So we go over to McDonald's and,
and in the booth sitting across

from us is this homeless lady.

You can tell with all of
her stuff and everything.

Yeah.

And, and so we're sitting in the booth.

So I go up there to get
something, to get our food.

Whenever I come back, Debbie's
sitting in the booth next to her,

across from her- Mm-hmm â¦ and, and
talking to her and ministering to her.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it, it's, it's like you said-
Yeah â¦ we, we go outside of the church-

Right â¦ to minister unto people.

And Debbie does such an awesome
job in that of, of just looking for

the needs that are around her and
then be able to fulfill whatever it

is that God's spoken to her heart.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Thank you.

You are.

I learned it from you.

Aw.

Well, and you know, it made me think
about maybe you don't feel like going

to church, but maybe God needs you to be
there to say something to somebody else.

Yes.

So maybe you're going for
someone else and not for you.

Exactly.

"I don't need to," but maybe
God needs you to- Yes Yes

to talk to somebody else.

But this has been so good and, um, we
always ask at the end, um, if you could

go back and be in a real-time moment in
one of, you know, the chapters in the

Bible or a story in the Bible besides
the crucifixion and resurrection, um,

what would you wanna go back and see?

And- Hmm.

Maybe just to watch or
even just be a part of.

I don't know.

Yeah.

And y'all can think it.

We can- Participation is not necessary,
but if you wanna participate, feel free.

You can think about it.

Yeah.

We'll edit out the pause.

But it's hard, especial- I think
when I think about it, I'm like, of

course, um, I'd wanna be part of theâ¦

or watch the crucifixion, but
then that would be reallyâ¦

That'd be hard.

I mean, I know we depict it in our
play, but that's not even close

to- Oh, no â¦ what happened.

But, but we always say just
not that, but anything else.

I, I guess the first thing that
came to my mind was, was the fact

of whenever Stephen was stoned.

That's a good one.

Okay.

And, and to be able to, to see
his countenance, because they said

his, his face shone like an angel.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And, and to be able to see how
he handled all of that that he

was going through at the time.

Yeah.

And I've, uh, that was the first
thing that came to my mind.

Yeah.

That's a good one.

I have always loved studying Mary.

Mm-hmm.

And so because o- of her heart,
you know, just her heart.

But I think to be able to see Mary
when she saw her son resurrected-

Mm-hmm â¦ on the cro- Yeah.

You know, or, uh, from the tomb.

Yeah.

When she saw hi- When she wasâ¦

I know at the end of the play, he's
alive, you know, what joy is there.

Yeah.

But I think the one I always
zero in on is, is Mary.

Yeah.

You know, because that's her son.

Yeah.

And just- Yeah â¦ the joy.

Uh-huh.

Just the overwhelming joy that,
that she had because- And the

restoration and the- God w- you
know, he was true to what he said.

Yeah.

Always.

Yes.

Always.

Man.

Yeah.

That's good.

Like it.

Well, thank y'all so much
and- Thank you for asking us.

This wasâ¦

Yeah.

I, we- We appreciate it.

It was veryâ¦

A lot of wisdom in this, and I'll probably
listen to this, this one several times,

but- Yeah â¦ um, yeah, it's very good.

I, I'm just so appreciative that y'all
agreed to come on and- Thank you.

Me too.

We're honored, believe me.

Well, kind, thank you for inviting us.

It- Yes.

No, it's good.

It made me wanna ask Robert Casey, too.

What do you think about him?

Yeah.

Wonder if he would come on.

Maybe.

Is he in your men's group?

No, he is not.

Is he ever coming?

Man, I'll just be like, "Hey,
Danny wants you to do this."

Blame it on Danny.

All right.

Well, any parting words or anything?

I, I guess if I could say anything to
the listener is, is the greatest thing

you can do is be a student of the Word.

Not just read it, to ponder
it, to meditate, to memorize.

Mm-hmm.

And every time things come against
you, find something in the Word

that combats that, and do not
let your thoughts overwhelm you.

Yeah.

Replace those thoughts with the
Word of God, 'cause the Word of

God never fails and it never ends.

Yeah.

I love it.

I would say it's trust prayer.

Trust your prayers.

Trust God- Mm â¦ that He is working

in every situation.

You can take everything to him.

Yes.

And he will work those things out.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

That's great.

Good.

I like it.

Me too.

All right.

Well, thank y'all.

All right.

Thank you.

Thanks, guys.

See you soon.

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