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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back.
I have, look who I've got.
It's Kim Barthel, the legend.
And we've got the amazing Leanna Tank who
is legending and appearing on podcasts
all over the place for, with good reason.
We are talking today though about an
often neglected side of the equine
assisted thing, which is what are you
doing with your client when they're
not on the horse or not with the horse?
Because in fact, an awful lot
of the time they're at your
barn, they're not with a horse.
Are we optimizing that time?
If we understand how to optimize
that time, might it make the
time with or on the horse better?
Also, what are you giving the family,
the client, the kid to do when
they leave your barn and go home?
Because much as we'd love everyone
to have a horse in their living room,
although get a bit of a messy carpet.
Coming out to an equine assisted
place once or twice a week, it's
better than a kick in the face.
It will definitely get good change,
but it won't get the job done.
The only thing that will get the job
done is a sort of twenty four seven
system of neuroplasticity, if you like,
a, a, a lifestyle of this at home.
So our job is not just to
work with the ponies because
we like playing with ponies.
Our job is to offer a kind
of more holistic service.
And I do feel this just doesn't
really get addressed enough.
So we've asked the legend of
neuroplasticity and movement, Kim Barthel,
who really understands this, particularly
with autism, to come and chat to us a bit.
And also Leanna Tank, those of you
who know her, know her work as an
occupational therapist in many, many
walks of life, but including with
very extreme populations within the
criminal justice system and so on.
And although she's a very accomplished
horsewoman and absolutely has
an equine assisted practice,
she doesn't rely solely on that.
We need more tools.
So Laz, thank you for
coming on, Leanna, Kim.
Let's kick off.
Who, who wants to go first on this one?
Because I do, I do feel it just
doesn't get talked about enough.
Kim Barthel: I'm actually
hoping, Liana, you, you will-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Kim Barthel: start.
Leana Tank: Okay.
Kim Barthel: And get us going in
this topic as to which direction
you would like to take us.
Leana Tank: Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
I'm really excited to be here.
And Kim has been such a mentor
to me for a couple of years now.
And so I'm so grateful and have gotten
so much from the way that you synthesize
working with children and adults with
autism and mental health conditions,
using the nervous system, using movement,
using the senses, like tying all these
things in together because when I first
started working in this field 10 years
ago, people just weren't talking about
movement with mental health and autism.
And I was seeing all of these ways that,
like, the way that people were moving and
the, and the ways that mental health was
kind of influencing ... There was just
such an overlap between the people I was
working with with their mental health
conditions and their physical conditions.
So you really put all those pieces
together for me in a really cohesive way.
So that's why I'm really
excited to talk to
Rupert Isaacson: you about this.,
That's why because we know
Kim's too, too modest to do it.
Why is Kim so awesome?
And what did she do for you?
And why is it that she's traveling
all over the world constantly
telling people like us how to do it?
Leanna, like, fill us in.
Give us, give us the bio.
Leana Tank: I think that, you know, so
Kim is an unbelievable OT who's been
practicing, you know ... I, I think you
started your practice with some of those
original, like, big names in occupational
therapy like AIR Sensory Integration and
neurodevelopmental therapy and all of
those kind of cornerstones of foundational
concepts that have really informed
so much of where practice has gone.
She is an expert on, like, not ... So,
so working in mental health, I
think that people tend to think of
this mind-body disconnect, right?
Like, people are doing a lot of cognitive
therapy, they're a lot of managing
thoughts, and that that is a completely
separate thing from physical function and
and the way that people are moving and
the senses and, and heal- and physical
health, but they're not disconnected.
That's completely just a
very Western modern idea.
There absolutely is all of this overlap.
And Kim really brings in the
neuroscience, like a deep understanding
of neuroscience, of the senses of also
how, like, relational neuroscience,
so how people how relationships
and development informs people's
nervous systems and informs people's,
the way they experience the world.
So I think bringing all of those things
together just gives a much clearer picture
and understanding of a lot of what I
was seeing in practice, but wasn't quite
figuring out how it all fit together.
So, so yeah, so I guess where we would
take it, see what I see in practice,
and I think what is so beautiful
about occupational therapy is that I
don't really like that m- model of,
like, I'm the therapist and I tell you
what to do and tell you how to heal.
And occupational therapist,
right, right, right.
I will, I'll fix you, right?
You're broken, I'll fix you.
Occupational therapy is really beautiful
because we're good at looking at,
like, what does this person love to do?
What are they motivated to engage in?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Leana Tank: What is healing about that?
Or how can we set it up to be
supportive of this person on their
healing journey, right, to be as,
live as full a life as possible?
And so that's the way
I've been practicing.
And I think that there are ways to kind
of supercharge that by understanding
the way that bodies move through the
world, the way that movement works
and inter- interacts with a nervous
system and interacts with emotion.
And movement is not just
your muscles moving, right?
Like, movement is emotional expression,
it's neurological, it's a developmental,
it, you know, there's all of these
different aspects of movement that
I think people don't understand.
So when you are working with a child or
adult in whatever context, and you can
set up what you're doing in a little,
in a more intelligent way to kind of
extra supercharge that activity to make
it, like, more beneficial for them.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
So I've got a question there.
So Kim you meet somebody like me,
I'm working with horses and- mm-hmm.
... various people in neuro- neurocognitive,
neuropsychiatric conditions.
What is the, like, basic one,
two, three that any of us in
this field really need to know?
Kim Barthel: Well, part of my problem
with that question is the first statement,
you meet someone like me, because there
there isn't a lot of you specifically.
You
Rupert Isaacson: mean, I, I'm, I'm,
I'm completely representative of
the entire- Totally normal human.
Kim Barthel: I think not.
And you know, one of the key variables, of
course, in the work of equine support in
your movement modality is the horse, which
is, you know, we, we talk about task,
environment, and person, that they are
variables, you know, the, the environment,
meaning the people in the environment
the sensory processing in the environment
the nature in the environment, and then
there's the horse in the environment.
And the relational aspect that the horse
itself brings to the regulation experience
and the connection experience for the
other is often the unappreciated variable.
It is so much more than a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Let's say, though, that most people
who love horses or work with horses do
that, do so because they love horses.
That's what m- makes them go that
way as opposed to something else.
And I think many people understand in
the various equine assisted fields how
the horse's movement positively affects
the person either on top or next to.
However, I think what often isn't known,
because it's just not taught, is what
is the actual neuroscience of movement?
Kim Barthel: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And what are
these kind of keys that if you know
them, you could sort of adapt to
any environment to the optimal-
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: for the cognitive
process of whoever's involved?
Kim Barthel: Well, first of all, sensation
and motor output are interconnected and-
Rupert Isaacson: Can
you put that in English?
Kim Barthel: Yes.
What goes into the brain-
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Kim Barthel: the sensations that
come into the brain, and we often
think of sensation as sound-
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
... Kim Barthel: and visual, and smell-
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
... Kim Barthel: and touch.
But there are key sensations that
are body sensations that create
that contribute to how we move.
And they are the vestibular system,
which is located inside your middle
ear that tells you whether you're
upside down or right side up.
And they also the vestibular
system orients your eyes in space
so that you can move through
space, see in an integrated way.
That could be a workshop all by
itself, and so you can take me there
if you want, but the vestibular
system is our most primal sensory
foundation for all of our being.
It's fully developed in utero.
Okay.
Unless, unless-
Rupert Isaacson: Essentially
fully developed in using-
Kim Barthel: Unless it isn't.
Unless it isn't.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: Hmm.
Leana Tank: That was such ... I
remember learning about the-
That's a key right there.
Yes.
Yes.
In one of your courses and you talking
about even the connection with how
the vestibular system develops and
the way people hold their posture.
So like when people are just really
collapsed or there's even- mm-hmm.
... some signs of, like, certain
postures that people will hold.
So like if their neck is really
forward or if their hips are at
a certain angle, is a sign of, of
that- Oh, can we have these please?
I think this is like
massively useful for people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Kim, you can probably speak to
it more intelligently, but yeah.
Well- I see it in the people
I work with all the time.
Yeah.
Kim Barthel: Sure.
I mean, there's an, there's a complexity
to that umbrella question in that
sometimes the vestibular systems is
hit, I'm gonna use that word, in a
neurodevelopmental process, as the
brain is developing in utero- Okay.
for a wide variety of reasons.
I know we're talking about
autism as one example.
Rupert Isaacson: What are a couple
of other examples just quickly?
Kim Barthel: Oh, we could talk about
attention- Just give us one or two.
There's, now there's like the XP3,
four gene, you know, that causes
this syndrome, the we have so many
syndromes that are now identified-
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Kim Barthel: that, Did you
say fetal alcohol syndrome?
Alcohol spectrum disorder.
You see how those words
have D's again- All
Rupert Isaacson: of these things can
negatively affect the development
of the vestibular system in utero.
Got it.
Kim Barthel: Almost every developmental
difference, I prefer that language,
will hit the vestibular system.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: Because of the nature of
the timing with which that difference
was unfolding in utero, it's almost
always parallel to your, your ... I
mean, 13 weeks is when your vestibular
system is already fully ready and rare
and to go to wire up into your body.
That's very, very early in, in, in
the stream of gestation, as we say.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: And, and so a lot of times
epigenetic variables, meaning environment-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
... Kim Barthel: and genes have a
interaction that can change the switches
and redirect things to places that
they were not intended to go- Okay.
... in the developing way.
Rupert Isaacson: We do understand
in the equine assisted world that
the vestibular system is positively
affected, particularly when being
on a horse for numerous reasons.
Balance, BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic
factor, which is neuroplasticity.
Hopefully more and more
people are understanding this.
However I think that when the, the
people that are in the equine assisted
world, if they've gone through one of
the main trainings, have usually some
understanding about how the horse,
horses movement positively affects
the vestibular system of the person
and can begin to, if you like, if it's
over a simplification, repair damage
that's been done or ameliorate, let's
say something which isn't optimal.
However, I think what isn't understood
is now what do you do when the
kid gets down from the horse?
Now what do you do when
the child goes home?
Now what do you do when your adult
client who's there for an equine assisted
psychotherapy thing or a tagine thing
where they're working next to a horse?
Now the hor- I- ... The horse
is not under that person.
Kim Barthel: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: What
do we need to do now?
Kim Barthel: Well, here, herein lies
the challenge with that question is
that the vestibular system does ... If
we're talking specifically about
the vestibular system in this-
Rupert Isaacson: Let's
stay on that for a bit.
Yeah.
Kim Barthel: There's so
many things that it does.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: So you have to be very
intentional about what it is that
you're hoping to achieve for that
particular person in front of you.
So, I'll just give one example.
A significant aspect of our whole-
wholeness comes from the integration
of our inner core musculature, and the
inner core musculature is your diaphragm,
your pelvic floor, a muscle that wraps
around your trunk called transverse
abdominis, and multifidus, which lies
along your spine, and a significant
This is your center.
And it's also what we in-
understand in movement science as
the anticipatory postural system.
Sometimes people would call that
muscle tone, but the ability to stay
up against gravity really relies
on the activation of this team.
And the majority of the messages
that are priming these muscles,
so to speak, like priming a well,
come from the vestibular system.
So if it was not developing in
a, in a smooth fashion in utero,
then how you move right from
birth is likely to look different.
There will be more difficulty moving
against gravity, holding on and
staying put, being able to shift
your position from one to another.
And this is more than simply
practicing a movement.
This requires a set of, a flow of
data from the brain that is a backdrop
of movement in specific directions.
The horse moves up and down and back
and forth and side to side, which
gives you all this enriched, powerful
data that feeds directly into these
muscles to give it a backdrop that it
can't access as easily in stillness.
So in a way, I've answered
your question a bit.
However, the inner core
has two other big jobs.
One is interoception.
Can
Rupert Isaacson: you
Kim Barthel: explain
Rupert Isaacson: what that is?
Yeah.
What does that mean?
Kim Barthel: Yes.
It's the internal awareness
of self, that this- Go on.
... this is me and this is not me.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, I see.
The separation of myself to the world.
Right.
Kim Barthel: Correct.
And interoception provides
us with all this information.
Every time your diaphragm lowers down,
it creates pressure inside of you, and
there are millions of nerves living
between your diaphragm and your pelvic
floor that relate to digestion, to
emotion, to embodiment, fascia, fascia,
which is the network of connective
tissue that keeps us all together.
This all lives in that area most
richly or in an enriched way.
And so if I am collapsed, that
intraabdominal pressure can't happen.
But every single time I'm on that
horse and this alignment is afforded
to me in an upright balanced way,
I'm going to have more access to me.
Rupert Isaacson: I see.
Kim Barthel: And that is huge.
In addition to moving, it's like a altered
state of reality for some, of separation.
So many of, of my experiences
with those on the spectrum is they
often feel at one with the world,
for better, for worse, right?
The wonder of that and
the challenge of that.
And so this set of muscles that
I'm talking about supports that.
One more.
The last example here is that this is part
of the regulation system of being able
This whole area, which is all driven by
the vestibular system is also part of
how do I feel safe in myself, and how do
I have access to the hardware in my body
that allows me to come back to a feeling
of connection such that I don't move into
extremes of discomfort within myself.
This is really happening at once, which is
why, you know, when Leanna said everything
is all connected, movement and sensation
and regulation and cognition- Yeah.
are all integrated.
So it's not just, "I'm doing
movement and I'm getting better at
Rupert Isaacson: movement."
Yeah.
Leana Tank: I love that.
I, I have a good example tie-in of this.
Do you have something, Rupert?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what I want you
to do is can you, in the course of that,
also say as an equine practitioner,
how you integrate what Kim just said
to when the person is not on the hos-
Leana Tank: Ex- exactly.
That's exactly what I was going to,
because that is such a beautiful example
of that overlap between movement and
that mental health because in the work
that I do with people with serious
mental illness, it is all about,
are they connected to themselves?
Are they aware of their emotions?
Do they have that self-awareness?
And I I, I remember working with a young
man who came to- in that total collapse.
So you talk about a vestibular system
that's in collapse, and he, he came from
the psychiatric hospital and he came
from very challenging circumstances, had
done some very terrible things and he was
just totally withdrawn within himself,
totally collapsed, eyes down, would
barely engage low IQ, some developmental,
probably some fetal alcohol, you know,
developmental changes differences.
And, you know, also with the
folks that I'm working with, you
can't just say, "Do this thing."
Like, you, you have to embed the movement
into what they're motivated to do.
Right.
Talkdown
Rupert Isaacson:
instruction's not gonna work.
Yeah.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
You can't say, "Do this vestibular
exercise with me, like, not gonna do it.
" Yeah.
Barely get him to make eye contact.
And, but he did like to go outside.
He did like to take walks.
He was kind of a nature guy.
So we'd go take walks and he would
be eyes to the ground so that he
would be, like, running into things.
And so I would just make it a ga-
I would kinda make it a joke, like,
"Hey, you gotta look around, like,
look for the trees try to take him,
like, off-road a little bit so he had
to challenge his balance look at the
clouds, look at the birds, you know, oh,
I noticed, like, you're not looking up.
What ha-..."
He would get dizzy when he looked
up, you know, like, "What's it
like for you when you look up?"
He'd get dizzy because he just, his
eyes weren't used, his whole system
wasn't used to looking around.
I would play with, like, "Oh,
you know, let's walk like this.
" You know, like, you know, we
just, you just make it a game.
And he would kind, he
would enjoy that, right?
If you make it a, make it kind
of a fun game, and he would say,
"Oh, I'm, I'm gonna go work with
Leanna and practice looking up."
You know, and, and he noticed that
it was, it was better if he did.
And over probably a summer of doing that,
he wa- he was also doing tutoring, so
he had a tutor come and work with him.
And so she had kind of finished
up in the you know, before the
summer, we worked all summer.
In the fall, she was like,
"What did you do with him?"
Like, "He is looking at me,
he's engaging, he's actually,
like, learning, like, we're..."
And, and ever since then, he's
been in the program quite a while.
It's like, you know, totally different
person, just nothing but progress learning
to read, like, all kinds of things.
So, but yeah, it was kind of that,
like, initial, you know, boost
to the system that got him going.
So, you
Rupert Isaacson: know- It's interesting.
You know, during COVID I had a lot of
families who were s- obviously stuck
inside and or they could go outside,
but it, they could, they'd have to
plan it, distancy, blah, blah, blah.
And we could work with some people
at the barn, but for various reasons,
not everybody wanted to come and,
you know ... So a lot of people said,
"Rupert, what can we do without you?
" And first I was a bit kind of, "Well,
you know, this is the neuroscience,
so if you go and do these things," and
then I realized, no, no, no, no, no.
They needed you to say, like, "Do
this and do this, and then do this.
" The families, because they
were really overwhelmed.
It sort of didn't matter how
much information you gave.
And I'm a bit the same.
Sometimes I'm like, "Just, Kim,
just tell me about the thing, right?
Let me go do that thing."
So what I did was I started coming up
with these exercises to do as the parent
with your kid, no matter how passive the
kid was, or in some cases adults as well.
And what I did, I said, I said, "I want
you to re- to go outside and report back
to me tomorrow how many bird species you
saw and I want you to get this computer
app and I want you to identify five
and you probably even know five, right?
But just five."
And then they come back and
they say, "Okay, we did that.
And I say, "Well, that's great.
Now I want you to do five more and
five trees, five types of tree.
Here's this app you can have on
your phone, you can click, click,
click, and they'll tell you the
trees if you don't know the trees."
They come back.
Okay, we did that.
And I, I'd do this over,
like, a five-day period.
Then I'd, I'd add a bit each time.
Then it would be animals, it would be
... I, I would ask them to look for what
systems, what type of cloud is up there.
And I'd give them some example.
I'd give them some
pointers and tips, right?
And I'd lengthen the time gradually.
And because this is of course what I
did with my own kid, you know, when he
wasn't on the horse years ago when he was
nonverbal, and I watched him just sort
of come more and more out of himself.
And then eventually it gets to, okay,
now I want to know the medicinal
uses of these trees and plants
that you're reporting back to me.
Now I want to know the nutritional
and da, da, da, da, da.
Now I want you to go pick a
wild salad of three of them.
And what happened was people ended up
basically hunting and gathering and-
Kim Barthel: Interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: as soon as one end,
ends up in one's hunting and gathering
mode, because that's the authentic
human mode, it was really interesting
to watch ... It wasn't just during
COVID, it's been all through my life,
but it's been really interesting to
watch how rapid the change can be.
And that sort of speaks to what you were
talking about there, Leanna, where, you
know, this chap comes to you in complete
collapse trying this, they're trying
that, they're filling him full of drugs.
You go out and you off-road him
a little bit in the woods, and
an internal process kicks in.
And then that's very interesting what you
were saying, Kim, about the interoception.
Is that right?
Perception.
Interesting.
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because, and then
you said, this was very interesting
to me they feel often at one with
the world for better or for worse.
And yes, so for example, if you talk to
my son, who's now 25 and very articulate
about his early autism experience, he
would say, "There was a time when I
could not tell where I began and ended,
and that was in some ways ecstatic-
Kim Barthel: Yes.
... Rupert Isaacson: and in other
ways, terrifying and very confusing
because, of course, I was in a
place where that didn't quite fly.
And I gradually, he calls
it coming out of the fog.
I gradually came out of the fog.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: However, I wonder
if your inter- interoception in the
vestibular system also helps people to
regulate when and how they separate from
the world and when, and how they merge.
So for example, in hunting- mm-hmm.
I'm talking about hunting
with a spear and a bow.
Yep.
You have to merge with the
animal that you're hunting.
You have to learn how to become it.
You have to learn to read all of the
signs and tracks without really even
thinking about it while moving at speed.
You have to ... With plants,
you make a wrong decision.
You've killed your whole family.
Most edible plants have
a poisonous doppelganger.
Animals are hunting you while
you're out there doing it.
You're keeping the kids safe.
You need to murder the plant and merge
back out and make sure everyone's safe
and then merge with the plant again.
And then you watch a shaman,
a really good shaman.
And they will of course go into trance
and murder with the person with these
... But the really good ones, the really
senior ones, there's actually a little
scene in the horseboy movie where we're,
we've just, we're just about to leave.
We're saying goodbye to
the reindeer shaman ghost.
And he's just smoking a cigarette,
chatting to us, and he's not
in a ceremony or anything.
He's just running his fingers up
down Rowan's sign like this, which is
something shamans all over the world
often do, sort of pulling stuff out.
And you can see him going into trance and
then back to us and ... Yeah, and then
you go over the mountain around the hill
and then you go down there, but watch out
for the thing and then and then he goes
Yeah, and, and then you'll find that
you have to cross the river down there
because, you know, it's a little bit
shallower and, you know, unless it's
rained and then you have ... And
then again, and you realize that this
inward and outward introception and
whatever the opposite of interception
is extraoception, I don't know.
Leana Tank: Exteroception.
Kim Barthel: Well, yes, but not in
the context that you're describing.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
But that this is the, the
really necessary skill-
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: to not
just survive, but thrive.
Kim Barthel: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I-
Leana Tank: Kim has things to say.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah, that's, give us
some thoughts on this.
Kim Barthel: Well, two things.
First of all, one of the people that I
would love to invite you to meet is a
wondrous human named doc- Gabriel Crown,
Naturiza Gabriel Crown, who, that's his
shaman name, and he wrote a beautiful book
called The Neurobiology of Connection.
And a significant degree of his
writing is about hunter-gatherer
ways of being and doing as a
part of grounding and regulation.
And, and I'm just thinking about
him and what he would say, but I,
I'm gonna leave him as a dangle for
you to have a conversation with him
separate from this conversation.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's write it
down and that's so that the lads
listening can write this down as well.
Yep.
Once again, it's Narisa.
Kim Barthel: Naturiza
Gabriel Kram, K-R-A-M.
And his wondrous book is called
The Neurobiology of Connection.
Rupert Isaacson: The
Neurobiology of Connection.
All right.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
And one of my teachers in my history,
which is actually how I have known
you in another realm because I was
interested in horseboy and shamanic
practice, because one of my mentors is Dr.
Stanis Lafgrof.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: Who developed holotropic
breathwork after studying shamanic
studies diversely across our planet.
Okay.
And so he was my teacher for,
hm, a good six years or so, as I
learned to facilitate holotropic
breath work sessions myself.
And he often, because in
the '60s and '70s, Dr.
Groff was treating
very untreatable diagnoses
with psychotropic medications.
Okay.
And LS- LSD at the time.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just going
to write his name down again so
that people ... Graff, that's-
Kim Barthel: Graf.
Rupert Isaacson: What's his name again?
Kim Barthel: Stanislav.
Rupert Isaacson: Stanis-
Kim Barthel: Neslav.
Gloff.
Rupert Isaacson: G-R-A-F.
Kim Barthel: G-R-O-F.
Rupert Isaacson: G- Groff, G-R-O-F.
Yes.
Okay.
Kim Barthel: Holotropic breathwork.
Rupert Isaacson: Horlotropic.
Breath.
What is holotropic mean when it's at home?
Kim Barthel: Holistic, ho-
again, integrating breath,
rhythm, movement, and sound.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And
Kim Barthel: tropical- mm-hmm.
Tropic is his way of, of describing it
as a holistic process that's integrated.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: So he watched, this
is in the world according to Kim's
description he watched shaman look at
the ingredients of what they were doing
to attempt to replicate the experience
of moving in and out of one's connection
to self and connection to spirit.
What, what were they doing?
And studied the DMT molecule,
which is- Diamond ultra to
Rupert Isaacson: mean?
Kim Barthel: Correct.
And looking at some consistent ingredients
across shamanic practices globally.
And he found that it had to do with
how they breathed, which is vestibular
connected how they moved, which is
vestibular connected, how they used
music and sounds, which is connected to
the vestibular system, and rhythmicity.
And he created a process of pre-record
or musical rhythmic formulas that
would attempt to try and replicate
what he learned in those situations
to help people stay in the conduit of
connection to something bigger than
themselves, and to reorganize patterns
of interoceptive understanding in new
ways, which I think so many of our kids
on the spectrum live there, and the
rest of us are trying to get there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Leana Tank: I think about
too, the connecting the
vestibular with the shamanism.
How many of those shamans spin, right?
Yeah.
Or the Sufi traditions.
Kim Barthel: Yep.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
With the intense spinning as a way to
kind of connect to the greater universe
or right, right, an altered state.
Mm-hmm.
And how many of artistic
kids, autistic kids spin.
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
Yeah.
Well, I, I- And, and, and, and
do indeed play with breath.
A lot of people- Yeah.
They play with breath-
they play with light.
Leana Tank: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: They play, yeah.
Leana Tank: Sound.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and they
use, and the stimming, the
movement, the stims are so complex.
You know, I've often, as an experiment,
try to reproduce stims that I've seen.
I'm not just like, I
wonder if I can do that.
It is rather than stop the kid doing
it, which is like, I wonder if I,
that ... And I, and there's no way.
It's like a jazz drummer.
Like it, it's, it's too
intricate, it's too nuanced.
So they must be when they're doing
this stimming and so forth, doing their
vestibular system's a lot of good, right?
Kim Barthel: Yes.
I mean, this comes back to what do
I do when I'm not on, on the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
Kim Barthel: So I, I just, first of all,
I just remembered what holotropic means
specifically, moving towards wholeness.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Leana Tank: Mm.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
And so when you think about what
you've just described, instead of
seeing it as an aberrant behavior-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: I've always seen
it as moving towards wholeness.
It's like there's
nothing here to be fixed.
There's nothing broken.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Kim Barthel: It's to be supported.
And my question to any client that
sits in front of me ever is, what
would you like to be easier for you?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Mm.
Kim Barthel: Not a- you know,
like, what would, what feel, what
would feel more comfortable in you?
And, you know, sometimes I'm asking the
parent that question, but sometimes I'm
able to ask the client that question, the
Rupert Isaacson: kid
Kim Barthel: question.
And rarely do they say,
"I wanna stop stimming."
Like, rarely.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so true.
In fact I'm thinking back to an autistic
man, I, young man who mentored me and he
said, "It is true, Ru, that we have to
learn how to blend in for our own safety,
so we have to learn how, you know, when
you're 6'3" and you go down around the
street doing this, then people get, you
know, scared and that can end badly."
But-
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
... Rupert Isaacson: he said one of
the things that can really help
with this is to have a safe space
where you can go and stim out.
Kim Barthel: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: And Rowan does it, my
son, you know, he'll go and do all his
sound stims and flappy stims and slap
his heady stims and all those things.
And he needs to do that to
decompress, but he also says he
doesn't just do it to decompress.
He does it because it's part
of his self-expression- Sure.
... in the same way that I might
put on funk anddunts around the
kitchen while I'm cleaning dishes.
Leana Tank: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And he says it, you know,
it brings him joy, but he realizes he's
now, you know, six foot and big that he,
if he does it on the street and freckens
the horses, then people will get mad.
He can put himself ... He's got empathy,
he can put himself in their shoes.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But he realizes the
value of it, which I'm so grateful for.
Leanna, when you're dealing with
family situations, do you talk
about the value of stimming?
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Yeah, I would say so.
I mean, I, it's always the paradigm
of only if it's doing harm, you know?
I mean, in, in the setting where I am,
there are ... Frequently, the reason
that they're in our settings is because
they have coping strategies or they have
stims or things that they do that wind
up being really harmful, you know, people
who- Yeah, self-harming can be a stem.
when they're upset, they've hit
themselves so hard in the head- Yeah.
... that they blinded themselves.
So then we're looking at how
do we find alternative ways?
How do we redirect that energy?
How do we give them something different?
And it can be really hard sometimes
because they've found what works and
what's easy and yeah, it can be difficult.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And I'm just thinking beyond autism and
people that, you know, cut themselves,
for example, and that sort of thing.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's very similar.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
I've appreciated the, have you, Kim,
seen the OTs at Sensory Mod Brisbane
that have the intense sensation- Ooh.
... menu.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've really- I felt about that.
I've, I've integrated that quite a bit.
So there, there's a group of OTs
working in Australia and they, they
will give, like, a menu of intense
sensations for people to kind of try.
And sometimes I'll, if they can't
choose themselves, I'll kind of
give people things or I'll literally
go through the menu and be like
a lot of them are, are taste.
So, one that's been really
popular is pickle juice.
So- mm-hmm.
... folks that self-harm, I'll say, "Hey,
let's keep some pickles in the fridge."
And there's usually staff, you know,
all of our programs are staffed.
So I'll say, "Hey, just go ask the staff."
They'll give you a little med cup of
pickle juice that winds up feeling
like they're getting poured a shot.
And that's kind of like, I don't know,
that's like a nice reframe too, instead of
like go get your med or whatever, right?
Go take your PRN or go take your Xanax.
Rupert Isaacson: The, basically a, a
small but controllable shot of cortisol
effectively that retriggers the
nervous system to then produce- Yeah.
... dorphin or what's going on-
Don't know if it's cortisol.
Shaking your head.
Hold on.
What, what's going on?
Yeah.
Kim Barthel: There's a little bit,
again, one of ... Okay, before we,
before I answer that question, I
want to say one of the key concepts
here is the need to be individualized
to the person in front of you.
So, a whole, just a little tiny
placeholder on the pickle juice, okay?
So I have an example.
I had a young man who I never met
in person, but I met him only online
that was referred to me by Dr.
Bruce Perry who is developed the
neuromaturational model of trauma.
And this guy had an arm's length
worth of trauma and the diagnosis
of autism and he never slept.
He didn't sleep for, mm, he
was 13 years old, more than 20
minutes a night for 13 years.
Rupert Isaacson: Bloody hell.
How'd he survive?
So
Kim Barthel: that meant
his mom never slept-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
... Kim Barthel: more than 20
minutes a night for 13 years.
So he came on to the screen-
Rupert Isaacson: Can you
actually survive on that?
Kim Barthel: He was surviving.
Rupert Isaacson: Good Lord.
Kim Barthel: He came onto the
screen and I watched him do
this, rock his body side to side.
And so I rocked my body side to
side and he leaned right into
the camera and he said to me,
" Leana Tank: When you do
that, I don't have to.
Kim Barthel: And so this began
my detective work with him.
And so it told me that he could supplement
his vestibular system with visual input.
So what I'm telling you is it
doesn't have to be what you do
in order to get what you feel.
So that, that links back to Leanna's
pickle juice, that it, it, you
know, the nervous system integrates
sensations, and are you looking to
upregulate or down regulate your system?
So if I'm upregulating, it has
usually a cocktail of adrenaline,
of dopamine of acetylcholine,
like there's a, and glutamate-
Rupert Isaacson: What's acetacoline?
Kim Barthel: These are
all neurotransmitters.
So you get a cocktail of things.
Cor- cortisol is a hormone
that is a stress response-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Kim Barthel: where that's an outcome.
But what I'm looking for when I'm
trying to get something is a c-
is my own individual cocktail.
Like if you, you know, made me a shot,
so to speak, at the bar, you would,
you could make me my own cocktail
that I love that's got, you know,
sprinkles of different things in it.
And this is what I identify as the
sweet spot for each individual.
And, you know, having worked with
addicts and individuals who are
I always wanna know what
are you addicted to?
Because what you are addicted
to tells me about your cocktail.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: Okay?
So i- in, in the example of my
guy, rocking back and forth, his
mom said, "You know, we don't
have a reciprocal relationship."
And I thought, "Well, you, he
doesn't have any rhythm in his body."
So I asked them to roll a ball back
and forth and he couldn't do that.
So she was asking for a skill up here,
but he didn't have it in him, in him.
And then I had them lean against
each other and rock and she did
all the work and he stood there.
And then she turned to me and said,
"This is reflective of our relationship.
He is the recipient in her perception,
and I'm doing all the serving."
And I thought he doesn't have it
even in his s- knowing of his body.
So I suggested to them office
chair therapy, and this comes back
to, "What can you do at home?"
I thought, like, "Do you have an office?"
They were in a refugee camp, okay?
So I've got the context that I'm in and
they had a, an office chair that spins,
and he was able to experience enough
of his personal cocktail by doing some
rotation that he was, for the first
time, able to sleep through the night.
He had enough mix ... It's
like a DJ board.
"I need to up regulate this chemical and
I need to downregulate this chemical up
and it's, it's complicated, and that's
why sensory diets don't work for people.
" Rupert Isaacson: What's a sensory diet?
Kim Barthel: Giving you a protocol
of what you should do for all
people, the same protocol.
If you rock, you need to rock.
If you flap, you need to
squeeze something in your hands.
This is not how the brain works.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: It puts-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, again, I mean,
in a funny way, that's why horses,
I suppose, and nature moving through
nature require one to move in so many
different novel ways that somewhere in
there, you're probably gonna hit the one.
Kim Barthel: You got it.
Rupert Isaacson: That's good, right?
Because it- You
Kim Barthel: got it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It, it's interesting here I've
just looked up, of course, I had to
look up pickle juice on my phone.
So something popped up from
an OT who's on Instagram.
She says," I'm very excited about
the new article by my OT colleagues,
Carolyn Fitzgibbon and Julio
Sullivan, I think they're in Brisbane.
Leana Tank: "mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: This article
explores the use of pickle juice
and other pungent foods- mm-hmm.
... as a useful grounding strategy for
managing dissociative shutdown states,
and they're particularly talking about by
borderline here, borderline personality.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Functional seizures,
clinical examples are provided via
vignettes, but also provided by our
hypothesis and neurobiological model, the
homeostatic sensory reset hypothesis as to
why pickle juice and other pungent foods,
which activate special sensory receptors
in the gastrointestinal tract called
transient receptor potential channels,
comma helped, help to disrupt and
alleviate disassociation shutdown states.
And then there's a little list above.
They've got sour lollies, pickle
juice, lemons, chili, ginger, cinnamon,
wasabi-
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
... Rupert Isaacson: pickled veggies,
mustard, mint, garlic, and
tonic water, interestingly.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and
developed in conjunction with Dr.
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.
We work in the saddle
with younger children.
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be
applied in schools, in homes.
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Now, this is interesting because
some of these things are clearly
fermented sorts of vinegar in that.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And they're talking
about gastrointestinal tract.
Yep.
And we're talking about core-
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: gastrointestinalception.
Around that gastrointestinal tract.
Mm-hmm.
So presumably they're
all related, but- Yes.
... not everybody goes off and does the
sort of work we do, and when they're
like that mum that you described,
Kim, in the refugee camp, she's
coming in without a whole bunch of
information on these things- Exactly.
and you have to try to give
her something that's going to
function i- in short order.
T- what's your go- to for getting an
under- getting people to have an, an
understanding of how gut, core, vestibular
system all fit together in a way that
they could go, "Oh yeah, got that.
I'll go home and do that, " rather than,
"I need to take five years to do a PhD."
Kim Barthel: Are, are you, are you
laughing Liana at that question?
Leana Tank: There's a
lot to that question.
Rupert Isaacson: There is.
I mean, but the- You
don't have that implant.
For example, what I have to do, like-
Kim Barthel: The reason
Rupert Isaacson: that we're talking
about job right is to synthesize this
kind of complex stuff and make it pretty
immediately graspable, at least in-
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: overly simplified
terms, and then allowing for the
fact that there are nuances beyond
what we're saying, but that's-
Leana Tank: The other thing- Yeah.
The other thing, the other aspect that
I like about that framework of offering
the different senses, like the pickle
juice, the whatever, it also changes the
relational dynamic for the people that
are supporting the person, I guess in
my context too, because it's not about
stop that behavior, you're bad- I'm
Rupert Isaacson: intrinsically
lighthearted about
Leana Tank: that.
It's kind ... Yeah, it's
like more supportive.
It's like, "Hey,
like- " A bit more joyful.
"Let's try this.
Is this gonna help you out?
Here's a shot of pickle juice."
You know, like it just changes- It humors.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes that alone is what
the person needs is just that
different relational dynamic- Right.
or that feeling that
they're being supported.
Rupert Isaacson: But I'm still
not letting you off the hook.
I, I'm coming in and I
don't understand- That's
Leana Tank: King's question.
... Rupert Isaacson: the sibular system,
gut and core and interoception, and you
need to get me to understand this so
that when I go home, I can implement it.
You've got two minutes.
Go.
Kim Barthel: Hey, so first of all
there's a lot more to understand
about pickle juice, for example.
It actually does three things.
It changes your electrolytes.
Mm.
Because pickle juice is very high in
sodium and sometimes potassium, and
this changes the messages to the part
of the brain that is responsible,
it's called the hypothalamus.
You don't need to remember that.
That's responsible for regulation
of the stress response.
So if I am needing- Wow.
... that's one pathway that
pickle juice can affect.
It can immediately interrupt the stress
response in, in the nature of the quality
of what it is you're, you're consuming.
Second of all, it's in
a, it's an acidic jolt.
In acetic acid this creates a
subjective feeling of alertness.
And so, anything that is really powerfully
aesthetic in nature it, it, it stimulates
a reflex of hyperactivation of all the
little nerves inside the gut, okay?
And what that does is send a message
back up to the brain through the
vagus nerve that says, "Here you are.
In a, in a- The reception.
... in a mix of a millisecond.
Like it's, it's an
eighth of a millisecond.
Got it.
And, and then that here you are
would stimulate back down to the
body activation of muscle because
they're interconnected, okay?
And then also pickle juice would affect,
this is the other thing that came
to my brain that is so dissociation,
the idea that pickle juice affects
dissociation is actually very simplifi-
it's not really fully accurate, okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.
Kim Barthel: It, it, it, it really
is much more individualized.
So for a person that is dissociated
and sensitive, this could be
very bad, this combination.
So that's why the individuali- very bad
because you're bringing them back into a
state of reality without it, it, it might
not be gentle enough for them to tolerate.
I've had so many clients who land back
in their body from places of terror
and horror that it, it's actually
quite overwhelming and harmful perhaps.
So blood sugar also changes glucose
met- metabolism, which changes
cortisol, which ... So you see, none
of these things are black and white.
Rupert Isaacson: No, no.
I'm, I, we, we, we are absolutely
accepting that nothing is black
and white, which is also- Okay.
when, for example, there was that
little list that I saw on that Instagram
thing, there's a whole bunch of things.
And when you said, "Well, pickle
juice for that person could be bad."
Yes.
And I remember that maybe something
gentle and I saw cinnamon was
on that list, for example.
Kim Barthel: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Which is a def-
which is always been used for joy.
Definitely.
... in various cultures, it's,
it's a joy mechanism thing.
One can read a lot about cinnamon.
So- So I don't think these
people are saying it's just
pickle juice by any means.
No.
But it's more, if you were going to say
to somebody, "Here is the little formula
for how the vestibular system for- I
Kim Barthel: think I could.
the
Rupert Isaacson: g- the gastrointestinal
tract and interoception can be, say,
what they are and how they could
be optimized, and somebody's all
stressed and they haven't slept and
they're listening with half a brain,
and you've got to give them something
kind of simple to go home with now."
I do think it's possible to
distill some of these things into
something simplified.
Kim Barthel: Well, even
if you sit up tall-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
... Kim Barthel: with your pelvis directly
underneath your ribs, see, this is not-
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
... Kim Barthel: just slouched or where
my ribcage is tipped up and I'm
holding my breath, those two positions
would disadvantage the flow of all
those things you just described.
So even if I just sat on a pillow
that tipped my pelvis forward and
brought me, which the saddle does- Mm.
I could do that at home, then I
have more capacity on my own to
access the hardware that I've got.
That's very simple.
Rupert Isaacson: My mother-in-law
has a stool on wheels that
is in the shape of a saddle.
A saddle,
Kim Barthel: yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And I
don't know where she got it.
It's brilliant.
I, I go for it as soon as I go to her
house, and I wanna just sit in that
thing, because it feels like a saddle,
but, and move myself around, and it
puts me in exactly that position.
It's very interesting, too, what you just
said about the slouch to overly- mm-hmm.
... tilted up ribcage.
I'm just thinking back to my days as,
you know, compulsory cadet at school-
Leana Tank: Uh-huh.
... Rupert Isaacson: and you would
be, you would go from stand
easy, which was slouch to-
Leana Tank: Yeah.
... Rupert Isaacson: to at ease, which
was semi-slouch, to a tan chunk,
to tilt up the roofcase like that.
Mm-hmm.
So it was like three really non-
It's that flexion- Non-functional-
Leana Tank: Yeah.
... Rupert Isaacson: things for
the interception that you were
talking about, which made me
easy to control by a sergeant.
Kim Barthel: Exactly.
And-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
... Kim Barthel: you're training
sympathetic nervous system because
you need to be ready for battle.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Kim Barthel: So
Rupert Isaacson: that- That was the point,
Kim Barthel: yeah.
extension is a readiness-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
... Kim Barthel: to access the
stress response for survival.
Rupert Isaacson: Kill all be
Kim Barthel: gone.
So they, knowingly or unknowingly
getting you ready to be a good soldier.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And it's knowing.
You know, it's interesting, the work
that we do with the Bundesper, the
German army in in, in Germany, we,
we don't just work with veterans,
we work with people on active duty.
And the psychologist who's, who's,
who's really a wonderful guy Alex
Vaughn, Colonel Alex Van, who's
half German, half American, so he's
got this really cool understanding
of, of, of both frames of mind.
He himself, he's an ex- Marine,
and he says, the difficulty is
we are deliberately putting these
people in their sympathetic nervous
systems for years and years-
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: and then we've got to
try and reintegrate them into society,
but it's a deliberate process because
if they aren't in that thing, they
sort of can't go out and do that job.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then
they come home and if they do
that job, they're criminals.
So it's, it's, it's tough
because it ... Is knowing.
It's, it's a knowing piece of damage to
do in order to get, to get that job done.
Leanna, when you're dealing with
people who are going to work with
your clients when you're not there I
presume it's very stressful for them.
I presume that a lot of the people that
work in those care homes are underpaid,
overworked, often perhaps as trauma and
abuse in their own histories or present.
Not having a great time, perhaps view
it as a bit of an us and them thing.
Perhaps they're right because
they get hit, they get-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: shit on, they get all the
things that happen in those situations.
Mm-hmm.
So they don't like necessarily
the people that they're doing.
And you come in with all your tools.
When you're gonna then walk out of
the door, what are the tools that
you give and what tools crucially
do you see are most often taken
up and which ones are rejected?
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, yeah, I do quite a bit of work with
the direct care staff because there's
just one of me in all of these different
programs and I can only do so much.
And honestly, the greatest impact I
can have is to give staff those tools.
So giving them a basic understanding of
how the nervous system works, you know,
all those things kind of that basic fight,
flight, freeze trying to give them some
understanding of how the brain functions,
just, just basic, basic so they have
some empathy or understand some of the
behaviors that they're seeing in people.
Rupert Isaacson: Or perhaps some of
the stress they're feeling themselves.
Yeah.
Leana Tank: Exactly.
Exactly.
And help them understand that the
way that they experience stress,
you know, a- and the things that are
helpful for them are also helpful
for the people that they work with.
Ultimately, what comes up over and
over and again because I will kind of
give people that little crash course on
the nervous system and then I'll say,
"What makes you feel safe at work?"
And 100% of the time, they
will say, "Working with other
staff who have my back."
Right.
... working with a team of people that
I can trust, that I know are gonna
help me out if something happens.
So that's always the number one
conversation we have is how do you
build a team that supports each
other and, and feels safe with
the team that you're working with?
That kind of relational trust
is, like, the number one thing.
And then the other thing is, well,
then I will kind of leverage that
and be like, and that's the same for
the people that you're working with.
They wanna feel like you
have their back, right?
And that you're there to support
them and that you're gonna be there
for them when they're struggling.
And when they're struggling, they're
not just trying to give you a hard time.
They're not being, you know, bad
people, you know, they're having a hard
time and we're here to support them.
And the things that are really
good for you are good for them too.
So what do you like to do?
What do you enjoy?
Can you bring that to the
people that you work with?
Do you like art?
Do you like ... Everybody
needs to move more.
You know, like everyone
likes to go take walks.
Do you like music?
You know, can, you know, do
things with people that make
you feel like a community?
So that, that'll also be the conversation.
So those I think are the two biggest
things that always come up and why-
Rupert Isaacson: What do they
take and what do they reject?
Leana Tank: Yeah, I don't know.
You know, it's a process.
It's it's so hard because it, the, the
system is also just really, really broken.
It's just they're
working 900 hours a week.
Is that something that
Rupert Isaacson: always kind of
works, given those constraints?
... Leana Tank: Is
Rupert Isaacson: there something that they
always say, "No, sorry, can't do that?
Leana Tank: You know, it, they, they
all really connect with the idea
of having a, a good team, you know?
Okay.
And, and, and working with
teammates that are supportive.
And I've seen really good teams
go through very intense situations
and come out the other side like
feeling great, like, we got this.
Feeling good about
themselves, feeling strong.
And then I've seen weak teams go through
things that aren't even that big of a deal
and they're like a mess in a shambles.
So it's just, it seems to
be really about the team.
Kim Barthel: You know, I was teaching
in a pen- in a penitentiary on Friday
of last week, and the conversation,
the name of the workshop was called
Becoming a Behavioral Detective
and no one rejected any ideas.
So it, it was one layer after
another of awareness and curiosity.
I mean, that's what I think,
that's what we're doing
is creating curiosity.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
A- a lot of the people that work
in those programs have autistic
kids, you know, have fam- you
know, they have their own trauma.
There, a lot of times they're really
connecting to the material and just- Yeah.
interested in learning.
Rupert Isaacson: The
Leana Tank: reason- If they're
not, they're usually overwhelmed.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
this is overwhelmed.
The, the, the reason why I'm asking
what do they reject is rather, rather
like you, Kim, if, if I go and give
a, a workshop, I wouldn't say anyone
rejects anything that I bring.
But when I'm- No.
working, say, one-to-one with a
family who say, "Okay, Rupert,
I need, we need help right now.
Tell us what to do.
" And then I'll usually say, "Okay it's
going to require some lifestyle changes.
Are you willing to do the following?"
And then it's rather interesting
to me to see who takes up what.
So for example, let's say it's a
kid who, whose need for movement
is very, very clear, and they're
gonna do it whether you like it or
not, and it's gonna drive you nuts.
And you've come home from work and
you want them to be quiet and still,
and they're just not gonna be.
And you also don't want them to be
because it's good for them, and it's
also not so good for you right now.
So I will say things like,
adapt your living room so
that it is effectively a gym.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Install swings
from the ceiling, get freestanding A
frames, get climbing frames that you
can pull out from the wall and then go
back into the wall because- You sound
Kim Barthel: like a great OT.
Leana Tank: I was just
gonna say that, Kim.
... Rupert Isaacson: a wonderful OT.
I'll say this thing.
And then there'll be a certain number
of parents who go ... And I'll say,
"Oh, and that, and make sure you got
a couch that costs, like, 300 bucks.
The, the kids can just
bounce all over and trash it.
" And all the nice ornaments that you've got
and all the nice stuff, you got, put it up
in boxes and it can come out again later.
But for now, for this couple of
years of your life, it's, it's a
different set of priorities and get
a bunch of plants and, and change
your light it and so on and so on.
And I see who goes down the list
of these things because I say,
"This is just the cold, hard fact.
If you do these things, it will be better.
If you don't, you will
probably stay where you are.
" Then you can choose how many of these
things you wanna do, and that's about how
far along you'll get because I resisted
it too, because we don't like change.
So believe me, I went kicking
and screaming, however,
it's where my success lays.
So I have totally empath- empathy
for the fact that you want to say,
"Rupa, I can't do those things."
But honestly, then the only comment
left to that is, "Well, then see you
next year for the same conversation."
But probably a little bit worse.
And then I see the ones who,
who do it a bit and they'll be
like, "Ooh, actually, well..."
And then it's a gradual process
as they do more and more.
There's some who, like, dive
right in and go, "I see the logic.
I'm doing it.
" And there's some who never do.
Yes.
And it's really interesting.
There was one family who were in a
desperate strait two autistic kids,
and mom got in a car accident and
became effectively n- n- not great
form of neurodivergent herself.
Dad had a problem with
all of this naturally.
So we galvanized luckily
there were grandparents.
We galvanized the grandparents.
And what we did is I got a
grant and I actually fielded two
full-time staff for them to live in-
Kim Barthel: Gosh.
... Rupert Isaacson: free of charge.
I went and got a philanthropist to
pay for it because one of these kids
started to eat as shit, the other one
started to pull his own teeth out.
It was really bad.
And they, and we gave them the
whole formula of what to do,
including all the stuff in nature
and movement and trampolines in
the backyard and trampolines in
the house and da, da, da, da.
And I had my two people in there
and they implemented it and the,
it just went 180 degrees like that
to, like, total functionality.
And then the grant ran out.
Mm.
And I said, "It's coming now, lads,
that we have to do the transition.
You've seen the change."
Well, of course, they
didn't keep it going.
And we even helped them to find, like,
team, we even helped them to find people
who could replace the two people that
I had fielded and volunteers who were
interested, students who were interested,
and then a rotating team of those people
so that they wouldn't get burned out.
Like, you have to think it through.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But you also have to make
it attractive for those people to stay.
Leana Tank: Uh-huh.
Rupert Isaacson: And anyway, they,
they didn't, and it fell apart.
And then I got a call during COVID
from one of the grandmas saying, "It's
all gone back again to how it was.
" And I said, "Well, have you implemented?"
And they said, "Well, no."
And I said, "Well,
there's the formula again.
I, you know, can I help you do it?
" I said, "Well, no, it's,
it's too much for us, really.
" And I said, "Well, then why
are you, why are you asking me?
" She said, and it sort of petered out.
So the, now that's a very extreme example,
and it was very sad, but it was also very
clear for me what worked and what didn't.
Mm.
Most of the people that I give these
sorts of bits of advice to, as you
say, Leanna, they're overwhelmed
and they're very tired, as was I.
Mm-hmm.
But I just realized I could choose between
being exhausted that way and going down
the toilet and being exhausted that way
and possibly climbing out of the toilet.
Kim Barthel: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: So we're all in this same
boat where we have to give tools and we
have to sort of bring it down to things
that are implementable fairly quickly,
like let them bounce on the sofa or
take them outside into the woods, right?
Y- Kim, you know- Yes.
... with the knowledge that you've got,
you know, people must be coming to you
all the time with this kind of stuff.
Kim Barthel: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: What are you saying?
Kim Barthel: Well, as I listen
to you, two thoughts come.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Kim Barthel: One part of our, especially
in my, my being very strong aspect of
my being is my psychotherapeutic self.
Occupational therapists,
that's another part of them-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
... Kim Barthel: is to be emotionally
connected to the person that they're with.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Kim Barthel: And to use what we know
about, you know, we're talking about
mental health, the people that are
in front of us, and you are a parent.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: I'm a parent too,
but I'm a parent in a different
way than you're a parent.
Yeah.
You're a parent who has a
life of lived experience-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
... Kim Barthel: to share with the,
which carries and, and also a
tremendous amount of passion- Mm.
and knowledge and success and seasoned
wisdom that people come to you with a
different, with a different mindset- Mm.
... than they might come to me or Liana.
I mean, they come to us for
inspiration, but you have a dif-
you carry a different signature.
Mm.
And so when I have a client in front
of me, I see every human as whole and
resourceful within themselves- mm-hmm.
as a place of we're all doing the
best we can with what we have, and
what's one thing that I can do.
Now, the story you just told gave me
a tremendous amount of overwhelmingly
inspirational love and wonder at, at the
level of generosity and desire to make
this world such a magnificent place.
And it's so true that we can
sometimes create the affordance of
everything and it doesn't land, right?
That spiritual knowing that each
people, each person has their own path.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: And that I'm, I'm,
I'm ... I, I walk that one all the time
with what I know and what, what I know.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: I know in my brain
and with what I know with my heart
about the people and, that I'm with.
And so, again, you know, we're talking
about, for me, inherent in my own work
is who is the individual in front of me-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: rather than the
bigger picture of because the
bigger picture of change in the
world, because I've been there too.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: In that working with systems,
working in war zones, working, you know,
with things are, that beat you down.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: And finding ways to be
in alignment with what is and hopeful
for more as my inner state of being.
Otherwise, I couldn't travel around
the world and see people in the
magnitude of suffering that we do-
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
... Kim Barthel: and get up in the morning.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
and still want to do it.
Kim Barthel: And still want to do it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yes.
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Take it from there.
Kim Barthel: So I, I feel that when you
talk about what you shared, you know, I
think ... Or when Leanna is talking to
a team, I don't think it's about what
I say or the tool that I give, really.
I could, you know, talk about acetic
acid, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
It's the feeling that makes them
feel, I can do this, or I, that,
that they leave seeing the person
in front of them as a human that
is already whole and resourceful.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
No, I get it.
And I, I do feel that one
can do both at the same time.
I do believe that one can see
that, hold that bigger picture
and go completely individual.
Leana Tank: Hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: and you're right.
I, I didn't weirdly enough when that
story I thought I didn't have attachment.
I didn't have attachment to them doing
it, but they said, "Can you help?"
And I said, "Okay."
You know, so- Of course.
... to the best of my ability, I will do it.
Kim Barthel: Of course.
... Rupert Isaacson: whether you take this
on or not, I personally have learned
by implementing it, more of what works.
Exactly.
So thank you for giving
me this opportunity.
The other thing too is rather
like you, because I picked up from
what you just said is optimism.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And that, you know,
as we know, there's many studies now
in optimism, and that optimism seems
to actually create good outcomes.
And again, if you bring it down to the
hunter-gatherer mentality, if you go out
assuming you're not gonna be successful
in the hunt, you probably won't be.
If you go out not looking really for
the right plants because you assume
they're not gonna be there, you might
miss that one that's just popping
out from under the stone that could-
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: you know, sort out
your granny's rheumatoid arthritis.
So optimism is really important and
I'm also optimistic that for that
family, they might over time actually
find their right outcome and that
what we did was part of an adventure.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So I can
hold all that for sure.
I don't feel any sense of
disappointment in them.
Mm-hmm.
It's just more that when one is called
to be of service and all of us who are
in this work effectively are, we kind
of wanna be as effective as we can be.
You know, Leanna, when you're, ... There
was a story that you told, and I'd
like you to tell it about ... I'm
just gonna nudge your memory, I
think it speaks to this, having to
hold all these ambiguities together,
which is the human condition, right?
You tell the story of walking with one
of the people that you work with, and I
think it was a student OT or something,
I could be wrong, you'll correct me, when
she said, "Well, there, you guys were
talking about stuff that happens in life."
And she said, "Oh, I think
everything happens for a reason."
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then said, "Can
you, can you just tell us that one?"
Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, yeah, this client was really, really
impactful to me, and I, I won't say too
much about, you know, his history, but he
had, came from incredibly traumatic past.
He had
Rupert Isaacson: committed
a great trauma too.
Leana Tank: He had committed a
great trauma and was absolutely
traumatized from what he had done.
And through working with him over
a year, doing a lot of time in
nature, a lot of work on just being
aware of who he was and getting
connected a lot of self-acceptance.
He had come to a place where he really
accepted himself and was accepting of,
of the things that had happened and was
able to even be grateful i- grateful for
his past and see gratitude for kinda how
it had contributed to who he was today.
And he was, he was saying some of
that to me, you know, we were kind
of wrapping up our time and I had
this student with me and she actually
didn't know the extent of his history.
So he was expressing these
kind of, like, grateful things
and grateful for where he was.
And she was like, "Yep,
everything happens for a reason."
And that is not the kind of thing
that really I would say to, for the
things that had happened to him.
And I think that, you know,
that- But what did he then had a
very- ... Interesting response.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He- Tell
Rupert Isaacson: me what he said
Leana Tank: to that.
I'm trying to remember
now what he had said.
You know, I think it, it wasn't about it
wasn't about, you know, the, these things
had happened for a reason, but he was
grateful for the things that had happened
to him and who it had made him today.
And, and that you can ... And I think
it's that, like, stoic concept of a
more fati that is love your fate, right?
It's like you just have to kind of come
to a place where you, even the good and
the bad, they all have built who you
are and, and if you can get to a place
where you're grateful for who you are,
then it's all, you know, kinda okay.
And so, yeah, yeah.
And he, and he kinda expressed
that in a really gentle kind way.
And I think that's, like,
healing from trauma, right?
It's, it's where you ... It's
not like it went away.
It's not like it never happened.
It's not, you know, it's more like
it's integrated into who you are as a
person, and then you can kind of draw
from that as a strength and draw from
that to actually share, you know, and,
and share healing with other people.
So, yeah, kind of get
the alchemized like that.
Kim Barthel: And I think that's what
Rupert is talking about that you do.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's,
it's interesting that as you
were talking about, Leanna, I
was thinking that conversation
happened while walking, right?
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That conversation
happened not sitting in a room
facing each other, sitting in chairs.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
And what was interesting was that your,
the, the chap that you were working
with who I know what he did and, you
know, it, it, it's, it's toe curling.
It's interesting that he could have
that sort of discernment to say,
"Well, actually, I dispute that
everything happens for a reason."
Things may actually not.
However, once they've happened-
Kim Barthel: Hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: what do
you do with that material?
Kim Barthel: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: It's very
interesting when people often ask me
about, "Well, what causes autism?"
And that is a dangerous road to go
down for a number of reasons, but
people can't help it naturally,
but there's all kinds of politics and
stuff associated with that question.
And so what I'll generally say is,
honestly, it doesn't matter because
right now where we are- mm-hmm.
... we are dealing with a child
that doesn't speak or we are
dealing with this situation.
So the question is,
what are we going to do?
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: What
are we going to do now?
And you had that conversation while moving
and while you were relating the story,
I was thinking, oh, yes, you move on,
you take life goes on, going, moving.
We take this thing that happened and
we integrate the wisdom from it, the
experience from it, the resources
really that it can bring dramatic
as they've been and then we go, we
move on to somewhere else with that.
That could be baggage that weighs us down.
It might be for a while, but as we carry
it longer, it's gonna make us fitter,
stronger, and then maybe we find that
there's actually something in that heavy
pack that turns out quite useful later.
There's my optimism again, but it
does all seem to be about moving.
Kim Barthel: Hmm.
I, I got excited there for a second.
Because there is a function of cognition
of executive function called working
memory, which is the past, the present
and the future as a workbench where I
take what has happened and I burring
it into consciousness forward into the
present, and then I project into the
future, could this be different, you know?
And this part of the brain that
is responsible for working memory
is loaded with vestibular input.
And in fact, they, they've
studied sway in respect to memory.
So for example commonly what we see is
if you're in the past, you shift back.
And if you're in the future disconnected
from the present, you shift into anterior
space that this is- What does that mean?
Ahead of yourself.
Like
Leana Tank: lean forward, yeah.
Kim Barthel: Okay.
To coming in front of yourself.
And that ... So memory working
memory is the official title of this.
It, the, the cognition is
connected to sensation.
So what you've described is what
I describe as remaking what we
call coherence or meaning out of
our experiences through movement,
that if I am, you know- Yeah.
stuck in the past, I need to move
my physically experience movement
going forward in order to go forward
because they are connected cellularly.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
interesting ... I keep saying that.
It's interesting.
It's interesting.
Okay.
So I've got to come up
with another another trope.
It's noticeable.
It's remarkable that going back
to the hunter-gatherer model,
which is a good one because the blueprint
is the authentic way to be human.
Healing-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: that I can
think of that I've ever seen
is always done through dance.
Leana Tank: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: So for example, a
psychoactive plant might be involved,
but if you're at the Kalahari and
Southern Africa, they don't grow
down there, so that it wouldn't be.
You have to rely on rhythm and breath
and such to get into the state of trance.
And the dancers and the
rhythms that I've observed,
interestingly, are often circular.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So you talked
about spinning earlier but the
bushmen would go round a fire.
Mm-hmm.
And then take diversions from
there to do healings and then
go back to round the fire.
And when working with shamans in Mongolia
with drums, it's a circular movement
and often the swaying backwards and
forwards with the circular movement
of the, of the hands on the drum.
123123 rhythm, usually, like a horse
scalloping, because they're horse tribes-
Kim Barthel: Yes.
... Rupert Isaacson: as well.
And and it's like the Celtic Baran,
which is effectively the same thing.
I wonder if the thing of the
spinning, you talked about sway.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And then you also
talked about the bloke that you
worked with who, when you swayed, he
said, "Well, then I don't have to,
but it seemed to be a key, a way in.
So if you were going to recommend
somebody to try out some movements-
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
... Rupert Isaacson: at home to see if they
could spark movement in their cognition,
movement in their life, movement in their,
to, to, towards amelioration and, and
away from suffering of whatever kind.
What would you- I
Kim Barthel: think- Yeah.
I think for me, I always
watch what you do first.
What do you already do?
'Cause it tells me how you are already
looking after your nervous system.
And if you are only using one way, you,
this is exactly what you described before.
How do I add a little bit more?
So if I'm constantly moving
side to side, that's only one
part of the vestibular system.
There are different parts
in different directions.
You know, can we move in a
forward and backwards direction?
Mm.
Can we do some circular movement?
And I always say when it
works its treatment and when
it doesn't, it's assessment.
And what I mean by that is, what shifts
do I see in the person when they do that?
Do they look more available, alert,
connected, engaged in the world?
I'm looking for a, a shift in their
... More function, so to speak, in response
to the stimulus that they are trying.
Mm.
Leana Tank: Yeah, that's exactly what
I found to be the most helpful too.
And I'll, you just have to really, really
pay attention and notice, because I'll
have people I've worked with who are,
you know, they're talking to me about
something difficult or processing,
you know, a stress or something.
And I notice, you know,
they're scratching their heads.
So I might be like, "Ooh, like, scratching
your head, that looks like it's helping.
Like, do that a little bit more."
I've found there's some kind of
foundational movements that I will
try to work in or encourage people to
do, like, pushing and pulling because
those tend to help people process
things like, like anger or frustration.
So I might have people try
different things, you know, and
just kind of see how it feels.
Or I have people that struggle with
boundaries and so we'll try, you know,
or, or I'll notice there's people
that when they get upset, they're like
moving the furniture around, right?
Or dragging their mattresses off the
bed and throwing it outside the house.
So we're looking at pushing and pulling
and crossing the midline too is a big one
like that, that I like to use whenever
I can, even that, that infinity symbol.
And it's in different ways, like either
we're walking it or we're ... I worked
with one man who he had schizophrenia,
but he also had a stroke and it had
left him without the use of his hand.
And they kind of don't really treat,
you know, when, when you're ... He's
in psychosis a lot of the time or very
paranoid, so he doesn't get any therapy.
They just don't really wanna
work with him in the hospital.
So he came back with no droopy hand.
And so I just showed him a few things.
I was like, "You can do this.
And he was like, "Ooh, I could do this.
" And then he was like making up his
own things and they were all very
intuitive and all really like, I
was like, "That's a great idea.
Like, I could do it on the wall."
I was like, "Awesome, do that.
" And, and he kind of came up, I gave
him a start and then he came up
with his own very midline crossing,
holding his hand together thing
and his hand just got better.
Within like two weeks, it was, he
was like, "Hey, it works again."
So yeah, yeah.
I think kind of having people try
things that are very simple and
basic like that, but that meet a very
particular kind of nervous system,
sensory, emotional need, and then
letting them play with it and create
their own thing is a great way to go.
Rupert Isaacson: I know that
we all know to some degree the
answer to this question, but why
is crossing the midline good?
Kim Barthel: Well, it's called bilateral
stimulation in its technical term, and
it's about integrating the two sides of
the brain, and one side of the brain has
a specialty in lin- linear language logic,
and the other side has a specialty in
emotion and space and artistic creativity.
And often, you know, we started
out this conversation about autism.
There's a difficulty with integrating
those, they shift from one side to the
other, or get stuck on one side versus the
other a little bit more predominantly, and
this is about integrating and increasing
flexibility between those two sides.
In the world of trauma, a lot of the
traumatic experiences of early childhood
come before language, so they have a
greater influence on the right side
of the brain, and moving between the
two sides of the brain, which is what
a lot of the somatic work does, gives
you an integration of those thinking
and feeling that you didn't make
sense out of, that lived in the body.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Kim Barthel: Just sitting on the horse
is bilateral stimulation, really.
Anytime you have to
use two hands together-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Kim Barthel: that's integrating
the two sides of the body.
Rupert Isaacson: If you took somebody
who couldn't follow top-down instruction-
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: yet, and you wanted
to help them with this and get them
to do bilateral stimulation, crossing
the midline, without saying, "Do
this movement or try this thing."
Mm-hmm.
What would be some
strategies you might use?
Kim Barthel: Well, for even just
having, offering them an object off
the center of their middle would invite
that kind ... You, you'd see, do they,
you know, pick it up with one hand
and then the other hand and, and, and
then finding the spot where they would
be able to just use the same hand.
Sometimes it's just a tiny
mitt off of the middle.
So that's nonverbal and just
watching how they might pick up their
favorite object or their toothbrush
or whatever, their glass, where you
place it can help in that regard.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Leana Tank: Well, I'll dance with
people, so I'll, I'll put on some music
and then see if they can do the moves
with me or take their hands and, and
do it with them and get them moving.
That'll-
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Hand over
Leana Tank: hands.
... get people going.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so much easy to do
this, obviously, when people are small.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: When people get enormous-
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: and stinky and
smelly and hairy they may not
be so easy to work with- mm-hmm.
... in this way, and you may not want to be
in such proximity, sometimes for reasons
of your own personal safety, sometimes
for others, yet we all know that the most
healing connection always involves touch.
How do we tread that line?
Mm.
So people need to be hugged,
people need to be supported.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: People need
to be touched and reassured.
As you say, putting hand
over hand can really work.
Mm-hmm.
When we're dealing with somebody where
this could be problematic, yet their need
is still very great, and the potential
positive outcomes could be very great.
Again, what might be some strategies
that b- the, the reason I ask
these questions is a lot of people
who run programs, for example, i-
i- it's tricky to come up
with all the ideas yourself.
Leana Tank: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And they may or
may not have time to dive deeply
into podcasts or books or whatever.
So it's really good when they can
get some sort of direct advice.
"I was in this position, I did this.
Could you give us some examples
of some strategy you might use?
Kim Barthel: Well, the thing I
wanna say first is it's never about
what you do, but how you do it.
So for me, there's only ever been one
person in 40 years that I couldn't touch
because of the attunement that comes
with it, meaning you, as you approach a
person, and sometimes that's outside the
door, they can feel you outside the door.
It's how you read their body as you
come into their space that gives you the
clue as to how much closer you can get.
And so, for example, you see it
in, they hold their breath as you
approach or they're, they move into
avoidance, their back gets stiff, or
they lean away, or their eyes look
away, or there's a cu- there's a cue.
And I usually say," Ah,
that's where I need to stop.
I notice that.
"And then I may reach into their space
rather than come close to their space.
The hand is the most reliable place
of safety, because inside the hand
are all kinds of points of touch that
connect into the vagus nerve, which is
predominantly safe and down regulating
right here in the web, we call it the
web space, which is around the thumb.
And I can technically hold your thumb
and look in the opposite direction of
you, be talking to other people and
giving you a squeeze there as a point
of entry, or I can teach hypothetically,
maybe, the person to do that to themself,
that if I can't do that with you, you
might learn to give yourself a butterfly
squeeze, which is squeezing your whole
body yourself, or holding your own thumb.
I mean, a lot of our kids do
this to themselves anyway.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: You know, they, they do- I
Rupert Isaacson: do, I do
it to myself all the time.
Yeah.
Kim Barthel: Totally.
And these are biological functions of
decreasing the experience of stress.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kim Barthel: And, and a hug, you know,
some people are sensitive to touch and
some people are sensitive to relationship,
and that's different that you, you, you
know, tactile defensiveness is the touch
in it of itself, but I have many clients
that are relationally defended, and so
the touch is embedded in the relationship.
So you have to tease those two
things out as well, that sometimes
it's not about the stimulus itself.
Rupert Isaacson: How might you-
How might you tease those out?
Kim Barthel: Well, you can, again, see it.
If I'm the kind of kiddo or adult who
can tolerate mess or, you know, I, I, I
can play with or feel things that wash my
hands in soapy water or tolerate textures
of clothing, but I can't tolerate you
hugging me.
Sure.
But all other realms of touch seem to
be either satisfying or irrelevant,
then that would be a cue that it's
more connected to the person- mm-hmm.
... than it is to the sensation
Rupert Isaacson: itself.
100%.
And this is where animals, of course,
really help because often that person will
have no problem hugging a dog or a horse
or a chicken but they don't want a person
And at the same time, if they can
get to a point where they can hug
a person, life will go better for
them at some point later on up the
road, if that is possible, because
that is ultimately how we're wired.
I have no attachment to myself getting
them there, but it would ... I would
hope for them that one day they
can but my animals, of course, will
be the ambassadors along that way.
Again, it's when you
don't have the animals.
Yes.
Leana Tank: I think, and I've-
However- ... I've talked to- Yeah.
... autistic people too, that relational
sense is very unsafe, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like other, we crave the relationship,
but humans are so unpredictable
and animals are good, but they can
also start to build that sense of
relationship even with a plant.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Leana Tank: Um-That's
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
Leana Tank: You know?
So having a house plant or plants out
in nature and there's some plants that
are very tactile that you can touch
or the grass and, or stones, Lying
Rupert Isaacson: on the ground,
yes.
Leana Tank: Gems, yeah,
lying on the ground.
Yeah.
Tree
Rupert Isaacson: hugging.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Lying fa-
stomach down on the ground too.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, again, not
necessarily things that people running
an equestrian program might think to do.
Let's go hug that tree.
Let's lie on the ground.
Let's ... Go barefoot
is another big one for
Leana Tank: me.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know,
almost always wanna do it.
And of course, the one thing you're not
allowed to do in an equine place is take
your shoes off, unless you're with me.
And then I'm like, "Fine."
Leana Tank: Right.
" Rupert Isaacson: Take your shoes off.
However, what we'll do is we'll make sure
that there's one volunteer on each foot of
that horse so that there's no possibility
of that hoof going anywhere near you.
" But the people who run, for
example, Path International would
say, "I'm nuts for doing that.
But I just see that it's effective,
so of course I'm gonna, you
know, follow what's effective.
But one can, of course, choose a space
away from the horses as well to that.
But really the, the, the, the interaction,
therefore, with the environment, which
is what you were saying earlier Kim, the
environment, the emotional environment
and the physical environment, and
then you put those two things together
and you've got the, what, what humans
are supposed to be in and doing-
On planet Earth.
When I was working in this stable in
Germany for a while where I didn't have
my own ranch again for a while, I had
to work out of a boarding stable and
not every kid that came was cool in that
environment or safe in that environment
and not every other person in that
environment was kid or autism friendly.
And so there were some kids I
could, like, rework with right
there and others I couldn't.
And I, and I said, "Oh my
gosh, now what am I gonna do?
" I thought, "Ah, I've just gotta
be flexible in my environments."
So I would say to certain families,
"Don't meet me at the stable.
Meet me at this car park in the forest
that is 15 minutes from the stable.
I will be there on horse.
I would go gallopy gallopy
across the field to get there."
It's quite fun because
I quite like doing that.
And then I'd meet them and we'd do a
whole play date there in the woods where
I could, again, control the environment.
And then I had, like,
all this amazing stuff.
Or I'd meet them at a playground
in the village and where there's,
you know, $2 million worth of play
equipment that I don't have to buy
or invest in or fundraise to get.
And we could do it there.
And then we're guaranteed to run
into some other kids as well.
So there's going to be some interaction,
but we could also withdraw and my horse
is there, so my horse is an ambassador
between those kids and that kid
because suddenly this kid is the cool
kid because he showed up on a horse.
That's kind of interesting.
Even though he's wearing
a diaper and he's 12.
And suddenly those other kids are
getting something relational as
well, this type of flexibility.
And I, and I often found that the,
the best synchronicities happened
when I made those changes that really
m- remarkable things would happen.
Almost miraculous things would happen.
Like, you'd see a type of animal
you hadn't seen in years would,
like, show itself and present
itself in some magical moment.
Like, that's when I'd always see the,
the male wild boar that you never see.
They, they're, like, so big and
herodic and they'd, like, walk
out when I was with those kids.
Really interesting.
And then I started realizing if I,
if I foraged with those kids with the
horses and those things, then suddenly
the forest would get more abundant.
Like, mushroom season, we'd go out and
I'd have the kid on tops as the spotter.
And then I'd have a couple of people
and, and they'd spot mushrooms and we'd
just go to see were they edible or not.
We'd get, like, way more when we had
the ... It was some ... It was like
the forest pot pushed out the good
mushrooms for us when I had the kid.
But when I went in by
myself, I didn't find them.
It's really interesting, this mix
between the rational and the irrational.
And you're talking about the
vestibular system, dance, shamanism,
moving from one state to another.
I was thinking about moving
across the midline, that's
three-dimensional movement.
Then, of course, you're
moving to other dimensions.
Have you guys found these
magical synchronicities?
And if so, can you give us a
couple of- ... Samples, please?
You want sick off?
Kim Barthel: Oh, that's a hard,
it's hard because there are so many.
I don't know if I can pick one.
Rupert Isaacson: What's
a, what's a recent one?
What's one that just springs to mind?
Kim Barthel: Mm.
Maybe I'm gonna let you go first, Leanna.
Leana Tank: Okay.
All right.
I have one ... I, yeah, I, I take my folks
out walking in nature all the time, and
it just blows my mind how nature just
shows up with just the thing, right?
And I, I was walking.
I had a man with also another
man with schizophrenia, very
disconnected from reality.
So I had found really the only
reality-based conversations we had were
walking in nature where he'd talk about
... We'd look at, you know, how spring was
coming along or look at the clouds.
And so we just did this all the time,
because otherwise he was in an, another
world or just staring into space,
and I was really the only person that
could have a connection with him.
And one day we were walking and
these little butterflies came
and they just swirled around us.
Like, they just ... There were, like,
two or three of them, and they just,
like, from both of us, from our feet,
like, all the way up around kind of
our hearts and for just a few minutes,
they were just swirling and it was just
I don't know.
He just kind of stood and watched them,
and I stood and watched them, and we just
yeah, just had a, had a moment, but it
was, it was really, really beautiful.
Kim Barthel: Wow.
I think for me, one example that comes to
mind, because I don't always get to be in
nature like both of you are describing.
Lots of times I'm working with people
who are unhoused, living in the street.
And I had a recent example where
I was working in our, or in our
Vancouver downtown Eastside, which is
a very large unhomeless population.
And there was a young man and this
is about two ... This story was, this
first part of the story is about two
years ago, was sitting on the curb, and
he was rocking his body, and having a
conversation with himself, and I decided
to just sit on the curb beside him.
And it took him about two, three
minutes to recognize that I was even
there, and he slowly looked over at
me, and I said to him, "I see you.
" That was it.
Then he went back to talking to himself,
and I got up and I walked away, and fast
forward two years, this is recently,
I was in Walmart in some sh- you know,
some aisle, and this young man walks
over to me, and he says, "It's you.
And I looked at him because I
didn't recognize him at all.
And he said, "You are the lady
who sat on the curb beside
me, and you said, I see you.
I want you to see me now.
I have a
job."
And he said, "You are the first
person to ever say they saw me.
" Now, I'm telling you that story
because I don't think any of these
things are ever for one person.
They're so circular- mm-hmm.
... that what we do with other actually
has a spring back immediately at us.
And rarely do I ever get to see
any of the seeds that you plant.
And this was a day where, you know,
we, in your eyes, I see myself as.
So I think of synchronicity also,
not only in the world, the natural
world, but also in the human world
where, you know, it was a particular
day where I was wondering, does any
of this make any difference at all?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: And then spirit sort
of shows up in a connected way and
reminds us of why we do what we do.
So that's, that's one that comes to mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And that's actually, it's, it's a good
point that, I mean, of course, the, the
human world is the natural world even, you
know, even when one sitting in the middle
of Walmart, one is on planet earth, one is
in nature, one is just in a type of nature
that has been made not so good for humans.
And, and maybe any other species, but
it's true that it's more direct in nature.
And it's also true that the vast majority
of the people that we serve do not live
there and are gonna go from your stable
back to a suburban or urban environment,
relatively few are going to go into the
forest in terms of back home which is
why I'll generally give people advice
of, if you possibly can move either
to the country or to somewhere where
you've got access to a very large park
or, or because the more time you spend
there, the better things are gonna go.
Mm-hmm.
But if you can't how do
you make the most of it?
And, and it is certainly true that in
movement method, for example, we teach
people that to get, if you can get
the correct human environment and the
correct physical environment together,
this is always gonna be optimal,
but which one would win in our work?
And we realized that it's true that if
you went into the forest with someone
who was scaring the shit out of you and
making you feel very unsafe, it really
wouldn't matter how good the ecology was.
You would be just lost in cortisol and
trying to survive and, you know, but yet
you could be by the side of the freeway
with the trucks going by with somebody
incredibly empathetic and loving and
derive more support and benefit from
that than being out under the trees.
Ideally, we do it both together.
But it was interesting to us, even
as, as nature-based as our programs
are, we had to kind of admit that it
comes down to the relational, really.
Yeah.
But of course, nature helps with
that m, because it also chills people
out doesn't, you know, takes care.
And that's something else
which I'd like to talk about a
little bit why nature kills us.
So I went for a walk the other
day, I'd been teaching all
day and teaching with horses.
So I was still in nature, right?
I look up, there's the hills, there's
the woods, there's the forest, but
I'm in quite a focused, you know,
thing and trying to keep people
alive as well as educated- mm-hmm.
And at the end of the day, I was like,
"Phew, okay, I'm gonna go for a walk."
So I went for a walk and I'm just walking,
in this case, through an olive grove, and
I'm like, "Ooh, this is easy on the eyes."
And I could feel my body go, "Ah."
And then I thought, why
is it easy on the eyes?
Kim Barthel: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it easy on the
eyes because the shapes are around it?
Is it easy?
Is it ... And then
what's hard on the eyes?
Is that why urban environments are
harder because it's rectangular
and it always makes you do focus?
Whereas when I'm looking at these trees,
I can actually be soft in my optic no,
and my brain isn't working so hard.
Is it something like that?
You guys know more about this than I do.
What do you think?
Kim Barthel: I have one thought.
Actually, it's, it's a little
bit even broader than that.
There are ... And I asked the same
question as you, by the way to someone
else, and this is the answer they gave
me, a neuroscientist gave me, was we
have circuits, two pathways, parallel
circuits in our nervous system that
involve many different parts of the brain.
One is called the Default Mode
Network, and the other one is
called the Salience Network.
And the salience network comes online
when you are thinking, analyzing,
as Isai, or when you are trying to
keep people alive with the horses.
And the salience network can use as
many calories as running a marathon.
It's very expensive to think
all the time for your body.
And the default mode network comes
online when you soften your gaze,
when you soften your focus and
nature brings us there the quickest.
And when our default mode network
gets more opportunity, then it makes
the salience mode network better.
It's like less is more.
So walking on the beach, which is my
favorite, with my feet in the water, or
smell ... I mean, every time I come back
to Victoria where we live, there's no
smell like it, to me, of pure oxygen.
And those, those capture those
networks of ease, which takes you
out of this analyzing fixation into
being connected to something bigger
than yourself without thinking.
And a lot of, interestingly,
the default mode network is
connected to interoception, that
the more time I have in rest, the
more I am connected to myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Does this mean
... Something I've observed, again, with
Hunter Gatherers, is that the base state
of humanity seems to be when people are
living in the optimal natural setting
in that way including the tribal,
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: setting.
A base kind of quiet happiness.
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That I don't encounter
much depression or mental illness.
I do encounter neuro difference,
and those people are often
actually shamans and heelers.
But I, but I don't encounter ... And, and
it's not in any way seen as a dysfunction.
Mm-hmm.
It's more like a job qualification.
You're more sensitive you've already got
one foot in the spirit world, so therefore
that's obviously gonna be your job.
But if everybody is basically in
that situation, living in the,
mostly in the default network-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: with brief
forays into the salience network-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna hunt now,
or I've got to do this task- mm-hmm.
to, you know, create this
tool or dress the skin or
whatever, carry this animal hub.
Okay.
But most of the time, w- what's
in front of my eyes and where I'm
existing from what you've said is
gonna put me in that bolt network.
So is a lot of what goes wrong with us
when we move into the urban setting-
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: which is about a
10,000 year old experiment, more
or less that we get thrown into
the salience network- mm-hmm.
Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: just way too much and
that this exhausts us and therefore
sends us nuts because it's- Mm.
... exhausting and painful.
I mean, what do, what do
you guys think about that?
What do you think about that Leanna?
Leana Tank: Yeah.
I mean, I think just taking humans out
of their natural environment context
and putting them in situations where
they're constantly bombarded with
stress and stress that is diffuse
and, you know, never quite resolved
and is just going to cause all kinds
of ... Ills and issues and problems
physically and mentally, you know?
I, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So if we
aren't able to- For sure.
But there's your, your man who
was sitting on the curb camp.
And now knows Walmart.
This is one of the least optimal.
I can, I can last about 15 minutes
and therefore I have to run.
There's something about the
smells of Walmart too and that
blue light and everything.
It's, it's, it's not just
that it's a superstore.
It's, there's something very particular
about the sensory experience of a Walmart.
And apparently I heard more crime
happens in Walmart parking lots in North
America than just about any other ... I
mean, we should look up and see if I'm
blowing smoke on that one, but I- Uh-huh.
I've heard that a few times.
There's probably all kinds of reasons.
Kim Barthel: Well, I think
it's, it's purpose, hey?
Purpose and meaning are valuable
pieces of the human fuel of places.
Like, you know, when you think
about creativity and connection,
purpose is way up there and meaning
making in our lives that, well, I
just think about Victor Frankel,
you know, how you can take- mm-hmm.
things that are so horrific
and make meaning out of them.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell
us who is Victor Frankl?
People won't know.
Well,
Kim Barthel: he is a survivor of the
prisoner of war camp in Auschwitz.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Kim Barthel: You know, talks all about
the experiences of that trauma is not
what happens to you, but what happens
inside you when something happens to you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: And so meaning making, I,
I think what the pride was in the, even
though it was Walmart, it wasn't Walmart.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
Kim Barthel: It was the
sense of, look at me.
I, I'm engaged in something purposeful.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: And I'm proud of
a, in a good place of pride,
not a negative place of pride.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Kim Barthel: And that, that's
what captured my attention.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and 100%, 100%.
And, you know, he, one would, one just
hopes that because it's a salience mode
network environment, that he won't then
tumble from it because there isn't enough
default that ... So how do we help people
who are in urban environments get as
much default mo- network as possible?
Kim Barthel: Well, one thing
is called the long gaze.
It's the- The
Rupert Isaacson: long gaze.
Kim Barthel: The long gaze.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Writing it down.
The long game.
Kim Barthel: Which means even, like,
for example, I've been sitting here
now in my chair for a while, and every
once in a while, I don't know if you
know it, but I turn my head- Yeah.
... because out my window-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
... Kim Barthel: it's magnificence.
You know, I'm- Tell
Rupert Isaacson: us, describe.
Paint a picture.
Kim Barthel: Well, I'm, I'm
on, I, I'm on the ocean.
Rupert Isaacson: Walmart, hopefully.
Yeah.
Leana Tank: Oh,
Kim Barthel: yeah.
I'm definitely not in Walmart.
And I have a a forest environment,
and then the ocean, and I
can't see another house.
So I have nature just beyond my window,
and when you look l- in a distance,
you take your brain out of focus,
because you're not here in focus.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kim Barthel: And so the long gaze, this
was something that we talked ... There
was a lot of conversation about this
during COVID, because we were so bathed
in stress that even if you look at
your screensaver for a minute, and
it has something beautiful on it- Mm.
... your brain doesn't always know the
difference between what is reality
and what it thinks is reality.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Mm-hmm.
Wildlife documentaries.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Mm.
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kim Barthel: Definitely.
That you can still or, or I don't
know, if, if they, if I go through
customs and they take my phone away,
all they're gonna find on my Instagram
is all these pictures of nature.
Leana Tank: I've heard that,
like, fractal pictures too.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Yeah.
It can be very
Leana Tank: soothing.
Yeah.
Nature fractals.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kim Barthel: That what we, what we
choose to do and look at, you know,
my husband went and bought a pair of
ground, of grounding shoes, earth shoes,
which have, they demand from your feet
to feel like you're walking barefoot.
They're barefoot shoes.
And just even wearing things like that,
if you, if that's in your possibility,
can bring you into connection
with things even though you're not
in connection with those things.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I was thinking, you know, it's a bit
difficult doing a long gaze if the long
gaze is just more Walmarts, you know?
Like-
Leana Tank: I think about
Rupert, you had a really cool
conversation with Craig Foster-
Rupert Isaacson: Uh-huh.
... Leana Tank: from my octopus teacher.
Are you familiar with him, Kim?
Mm-hmm.
Or with my octopus
teacher, that documentary?
Oh, you should- Oh, you got a
treat, you gotta treat this door.
Oh my gosh.
Go on
Rupert Isaacson: Netflix tonight.
Leana Tank: Oh my gosh.
Rupert Isaacson: And watch it.
Okay.
Kim Barthel: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: You'll
be like, "Thanks, Leanna."
Leana Tank: Yep.
Yep.
You'll be like, "Oh, you won."
Kim Barthel: Amazing.
Leana Tank: But anyway, he talked
about, because he's very much a
noticer of nature, right, a deep
noticer of nature and even being in
the city and noticing, like, little
slug trails in the sidewalk, right?
Or little places where the
mosque rows or, or the flowers
and the cracks of the sidewalk.
And I think- Yeah.
... in any urban environment, you can
actually notice where nature is, like,
creeping in and finding a foothold
and, like, just that little glimmer or
that, like, "Ooh, I see you dandelion
over there, like, can be a way to
connect with nature because it's there.
Like, you can't escape it.
There's little pigeons, you know-
Rupert Isaacson: Rigt.
There's actually often a
surprising amount of nature going
on in any urban environment.
And that's sort of what ... I'm glad
you told us, because that's because
I, I sort of set that question up
as a bit of a devil's advocate one
because a lot of people will say to
me, "Well, it's all very well you know,
he lives in nature, but what about me?
I'm here in wherever."
And I'm like, "Yeah, but my parents live
in the middle of London and I can track
foxes from right outside their door.
I know if I go out at certain times of
night, I'm likely to run into them."
Exactly as you say, that you, you can
watch the slug trails and then you
can start to see the little serrations
in them where they've been eating
the algae that's on the pavement.
You're suddenly a tracker, but somebody
does have to show you in a funny
way how to look for these things.
And as you say, Kim, the brain
doesn't always know the difference.
So watching a screensaver or a wildlife
documentary can produce that sense,
"Oh, I'm looking at nature, even though
I'm in my living room in the city."
Leana Tank: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The other
one, of course, is the sky.
Leana Tank: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think you, like,
just like you're looking at the ocean.
Leana Tank: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, one
of the tasks that I would give
people in those, what do we do?
So I say, "Go out, look for
these birds, go out, look..."
It's actually just going
out in nature and noticing.
But one of them was weather systems, look
up and tell me what the sky is doing, and
of course, and then go out and look at
stars, even with light pollution, there'd
be some, tell me what they're doing.
And sometimes someone needs to
give one a bit of a kickstart if
one's not in the habit of sort
of exercising the muscle- Mm.
... Kim Barthel: or
Rupert Isaacson: I guess the
long gaze or noticing nature.
And one might be sort of totally tuning
it out because one is just so very much
in that focus gaze as you're ... Because
the focus gaze is internal as well, right?
It's, it's effortful thinking, "I must
do this, I must do this, I must do
this, I must make this money," you know?
So thanks for bringing up the, the
brain doesn't always know the difference
because if one lets people know that
they could start with a screensaver-
Leana Tank: Mm.
... Rupert Isaacson: and then move to looking
at what birds are or the dandelion
and then move to the sky, then you can
actually, I guess, help someone that's
in a really non-optimal environment.
Kim Barthel: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: I know that you
are going to need to go see- mm-hmm.
... and we've been talking a long time.
Are there any parting thoughts-
Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
... Rupert Isaacson: that you feel
w- it would be really good
to just leave people with,
with this conversation,
what would they be?
Kim Barthel: That the brain can
change until you stop breathing.
Rupert Isaacson: The brain can
change until you stop breathing.
Kim Barthel: Mm.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Kim Barthel: And there is always
the potential for h- healing, that
it is never a, a lost opportunity.
Rupert Isaacson: It's never too late.
Kim Barthel: Mm-mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Beautiful.
Leana Tank: Yeah.
I love that.
Even 10 years ago when I was
first starting to work in mental
health, I don't think I, I thought
you're fixed, right, in adulthood.
Mm.
So it's been a really beautiful
thing to learn that that's not true.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's, it used to be the norm that everyone
thought, "Well, you just are who you are.
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But luckily not.
I
Kim Barthel: was gonna
say, thank goodness not.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
There are some places I've been,
which I'm glad I'm not in anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you guys both so much for this.
I think this has been really,
really, really helpful and useful
for all of us practitioners.
Just quickly, before you go, the
plugs, when people find you, your
books, your courses, people needing
to reach out for mandolship.
You wanna go first Kim?
Kim Barthel: Sure.
So my website is kimbarthel.ca,
just my name and CA for Canada.
Rupert Isaacson: And-
Kim Barthel: And-
... Rupert Isaacson:
B-A-R-T-H-E-L, Kim Bartel.
Kim Barthel: You've got it.
Yeah.
You got it.
And then you, there you can find
everything in other ways to connect.
And I did.
I wrote a book with a former hockey
player because Canada hockey is
pretty big deal on healing from
sexual trauma and addiction.
So it's called Conversations
with a Rattlesnake.
Rupert Isaacson: Conversations
with a rattlesnake.
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Kim Barthel.
And you teach courses, how do people,
they can find out about all that online?
Kim Barthel: Right on the website.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And you go around the world
doing this all the time.
I know you've just come back
from 8,000 countries in- Yeah.
8,000 months.
Do you do unli- you, you help
people out online too, can people?
Kim Barthel: Yes.
Okay.
We have a a large number of online
webinars that people ... And one of
them is lovingly called Autism Matters.
Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful.
Okay.
Kim Barthel: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So
check it out- Very good.
... people.
Leanna, how do they find you?
Leana Tank: I have ... I do a
little consulting on the side, so
you can contact me on my website,
constellationsconsulting.org.
I'm also on Facebook, findable
on Facebook and Instagram, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Leanna
Tank as in the tank.
Yeah.
Yes.
Leana Tank: With a tank.
Yep.
Just-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Brilliant.
Well, my friends, thank you so much.
I hope we can do this again.
I think we scratched some surfaces
that we could go deeper into.
So- Loved
Kim Barthel: it.
Leana Tank: Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you
Leana Tank: both
Kim Barthel: of
Leana Tank: you.
Wonderful.
Thanks so
much.
Rupert Isaacson: Very grateful, guys.
Thank
Kim Barthel: you.
Rupert Isaacson: Full heart.
Leana Tank: Thanks.
Bye-bye.
Kim Barthel: Bye.
Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.
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