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Analog-ish is a weekly interview podcast for people who are tired of being optimized. Hosted by feminist coach Becky Mollenkamp, who believes slowing down is a radical act, each episode features conversations with thinkers, makers, and everyday radicals who are finding their way back to something slower, more intentional, and more human.
We're not here to tell you to smash your phone or go off the grid. We're here to ask better questions about the role technology plays in your life — and to explore practical low-tech ideas that give you more agency over the answer. From reclaiming rest to building real-life community, from protecting your attention to finding unmonetized joy, these conversations are honest, curious, and refreshingly free of hustle culture.
If you're burned out from being constantly online and hungry for a different way forward, this show is for you.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:05)
The tech bros are trying to take away your humanity, but you're not a machine. Let's talk about what it means to live like a human in this high-tech world. This is Analogish, and I'm your host, Becky Mollenkamp.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:21)
Welcome back. Today I'm joined by Altagracia Montilla. Altagracia is a visionary leader, award winning facilitator, strategist and community architect known for bringing people together in transformative and joyful ways. I'm not going to go into all of the stuff in your because I think it's going to come up as we talk, but you have founded a couple of spaces, including a consulting firm. But.
You have the 7th Space Art Gallery and Wellness Center and then Freedom Readers Book Club, one being virtual, one being in person. Is that right? Hi, thanks for being here. Is there anything else you wanted to include just an introduction so people know who you are as we go into this conversation?
Altagracia Montilla (00:50)
Yes.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. guess, you know, the important thing to know, like my interest in third space comes with my obsession with community and the importance of community and building intentional communities.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:09)
Well, and that is why I'm so excited to talk to you. So this show is about trying to reclaim some of our humanity in this AI driven world as everything feels so, so online, so high tech. It feels like it's invading every aspect of our life. And I do think since 2020 and COVID and everyone sort of moving online, I do feel like we are reaching this place of people feeling a lot of fatigue around online.
existence and looking for more in-person community. And yet I think so many people have lost some of those skills or, you maybe never even had the chance to really develop those skills. It's been a weird time. And then as we've been more like, so, you know, I'm old enough that I remember a life before tech, but many people sort of it's been a part of their life, their entire life. And so the idea of how do I form real friendships? I actually talk to people. How do I get out is hard. One of the ways that we can do that is by
Altagracia Montilla (01:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:02)
existing inside of things called third spaces. And I want you to tell us a little more about what they are. My very cursory understanding is it's basically any space that isn't your home where people gather, right? Sometimes that's more intentional and sometimes it's just like the grocery store, right? That's not designed to be a community gathering per se, but it can happen inside of there. Or it could be something like your center that I think is more intentionally designed to create community. So
Altagracia Montilla (02:05)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
you.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:31)
Tell people a little bit more about this concept of third spaces and sort of what your thoughts are around the third space that you've been creating.
Altagracia Montilla (02:38)
the term itself was coined by a sociologist by the name of Ray Oldenburg. And there was a couple of things that he had named to be important about third spaces. So there's a quote by him that goes, they're the homes away from homes where unrelated people can relate. you know, so it's like you said, not a home, it's not work. And there's a couple like things that are really important to that third space, like quality, so characteristics they should have.
One being that people can come and go as they please. Another being that folks don't have to like, they don't have to pay to actually be a part of it or it's at least low cost. that social hierarchies don't necessarily matter in that space. So it would have to be somewhere where folks, know, it doesn't matter what your role or rank is or what salary you make, right? Like those things maybe matter at home and sometimes even definitely workplace and sometimes even at home,
So those are some of the characters that are necessary. Something that's coming to mind right now that I'm thinking about as you were just talking about just where we are as a people in the state of humanity right now is that one of the things I discovered after 2020 is that I think while many folks were blaming that year to be why we're seeing what we're seeing as a facilitator, as a community architect, I will say that it started well before that. I mean, I...
have discovered over my years in doing this work that most folks, most folks do not learn how to connect in intentional ways and know the difference of making a place into a space,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:05)
want to talk about that. saw you put that in your intake form. So that'll be great. Before we get to place versus space, I just want to emphasize what you're saying, too, about how we don't have those skills. And I think part of that is also a an American experience and probably Western culture in general. But I can speak specifically to America, where we are very hyper individualistic in this country and we are conditioned to be that way. I mean, the American dream, quote unquote, is all about the individual.
Altagracia Montilla (04:08)
Yes!
Yeah.
Is he? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:33)
pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, making the most of their lives. And it's all very individual focused. There are many other cultures that are not so individualistic. They're much more family based or culturally based, right? Where it is more community and there is a more collective minded approach. I mean, that's why so many other cultures have universal healthcare because they're thinking about the collective and not just the individual.
Altagracia Montilla (04:39)
You do.
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:55)
So when you put that along with this increase in technology that is driving people into more individual spaces where they're just looking at a screen, barely can even look up from a screen. And then finally you add this global pandemic where suddenly everyone's like forced to be around very few people, but intensely. it's adding all these things on that created
Altagracia Montilla (05:06)
and then.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:17)
whole lot of people that just now are like, I really want community. I really want to be around people. I don't even know if I know how anymore.
Altagracia Montilla (05:23)
Yes,
you know, it was interesting. Someone recently said something that was they said, you know, in me talking about community, they said, I'm scared of it. Like, I want it, but I'm also scared. And I think there's also folks who are because they haven't developed the skills necessary. You know, they haven't the practice, not just the skills, it's also about the practice. Folks are also nervous about the risks of engaging in community. And that's that's that's a part of the experience to which I would name like.
the possibility of how to trust someone or the risk of being hurt by someone who maybe you choose to love, right? Or causing harm. Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:54)
or causing harm. I would just say the other side of that, right? As the person with more
privilege here, like, I think there are many folks with, who hold certain identities at this point who are like, I'm afraid of causing harm. And that's real too. And we have to learn how to be with that.
Altagracia Montilla (06:03)
Yes. Absolutely.
Absolutely. You know, and I will say too, speaking of, you know, because you named privilege and you're talking about the American way of doing things too. Something I will also add is, you know, I come from a community color. I'm a woman of color in this space. And I also recognized and I noticed there was a difference when I finally went to Brownlee White Spaces, how community looks so different. I remember being, you know, so I went from, you know, I'm originally from the South Bronx, right. And there are many, right. There many things that people
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:32)
I couldn't tell.
Altagracia Montilla (06:35)
know, make assumptions about the South Bronx. Some are true, a lot are true, some are not. And there's also really beautiful things that think people don't acknowledge enough about the South Bronx. But, you I went from a school that was predominantly of color, had educators who were of color, to then going into a school that was predominantly ⁓ white. It moved with white norms and it was wealthier than I was used to. And what I tell people is the culture shock started to the air. I was shocked by the ways in which there was just so much competition amongst people.
and this need to like, you know, elbow the person next to you so you can get ahead. And maybe you had to do with the kind of school it was, it was a very competitive, academically rigorous space. But you know, I will name that communities of color in the US for, you know, ages, for centuries essentially have really stuck together and cared for each other. And that's been a way that we got through some of the challenges of being in the US, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:30)
Yeah.
Altagracia Montilla (07:31)
and it's also just natural to who we are. You know, yeah, it goes back very far.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:35)
Well,
you mentioned Octavia Butler in the intake form, and I am also a huge Octavia Butler fan. It's just speculative fiction written by particularly women of color, but people of color. I just think it's so important for people who have less or who have more privilege to read some of this work, because we are socialized so different, as you're mentioning. Right. And I know exactly what you're talking about, because
Altagracia Montilla (07:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:57)
As I've done more of my own work, have had this blessing of being welcomed into more spaces where they are less white and it is more predominantly folks of color. And it is a very different experience. We also have to be cautious as people with privilege entering spaces where we don't inject harm into the space or know that we may and how to deal with that. But Octavia Butler and speculative fiction writers like that really help us imagine a different future based on
Altagracia Montilla (08:08)
you
Yeah, absolutely.
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:24)
a very different experience of living, a very different experience of conditioning and also necessity. Parable of the Sower it's what helps people survive is the collective experience, Whereas at that same book, you know, that same future were imagined by a white person. I have a feeling it'll be a very different
experience, And I think that it's also something, though, going back to Place in Space.
Altagracia Montilla (08:45)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:45)
in talking about privilege is There are plenty of communities out there and third spaces that people can join. What often happens is they end up looking a lot alike. Everyone in the room is very similar or and I've seen this happen. I'm sure you've probably experienced this, a space led by someone with some particular privileged identity who creates a space where it
Altagracia Montilla (08:47)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you guys for joining us.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:06)
doesn't feel like it feels more like a place than a space, You can't show up as yourself. You can't unmask. So when you're talking about place versus space, I have a feeling safety, that word that can be a bit nebulous and charged, but I'm sure that's a piece of it. But what do you mean by place versus space?
Altagracia Montilla (09:08)
Yes.
Yeah,
so place is physical. It's where we are, right? And you can have something that is, you know, a place that
is a third space, right? In that it's not home and it's not work, but that space is energetic, right? You can go to ⁓ a place and maybe we're gathering, maybe we have an invitation to go, but maybe it doesn't feel as welcoming, as warm. The term that I like to use is spaces that move with spirit. So, and I'll explain what that means in a second because I think spirit in many ways, always feel like I have to over-explain myself because I don't want anyone to assume that I mean like religiosity in any way, shape or form. That's not my intention.
But when I use the term spirit, I mean this connection with the core of who we are as just human beings, right? Like it's not about what work we necessarily do or what role we have or, or, you know, how this capitalistic world is expecting us to show up, but truly at the core of who we are as just human beings, our core interests, our desires, right? Our hopes and our fears, like all of that, we're able to like show up in a space, just having that with us on our chest, right?
Also to move with spirit is to move with this ability to recognize that we are all interconnected. We're all connected. We're all connected to each other. And the fact that we are in this shared space that we're co-creating as we're speaking together and sharing these ideas, we're connected to each other. Right? And so in this moment, as I'm sharing this space with you, I may not know your full story, Becky, but I can at least in this moment sit and say, damn, like she's here too, like, you know, coming into the space with this similar interest and is trying to move this world forward and bringing, you know,
building community as you're doing this project. So that's what it's about. And I will name too, you mentioned the seeing places that kind of exist similarly. I had that experience and one of the reasons why I started to build my own third space is because I couldn't find one that had that movement with spirit as I'm looking for. It didn't exist in the kind of space that I wanted or needed. So I said, you know what, I'm just gonna have to build it myself. And it was around 2020 that I really felt that. During that time, I was looking for
a space where community can gather and people can hold, there was like, simultaneity was present. So we can hold grief and we can hold joy at the same time. And I went to, because these are places where I have community, I went to places where folks were organizers, educators, artists, and every single time I went to a particular community or collective, I recognized they were doing their best and so no shade to that.
But I also noticed that a lot of us seem challenges we were trying to work against were showing themselves up in these places, right? I noticed that everyone was like, let's do the work, work, work, work, right? Again and again and again, we, you know, we're going after nine to five to build and connect in these, places. But it was like, what are we going to do? What's next? How do we make sure everyone knows that we're doing the work in this time, as opposed to just saying, damn, can we just sit still and like recognize we are humans? We're here, we're alive. my goodness. You know, can we sit with grief?
You know, can we sit with the heaviness, the weight, and also make space for the joy? And I couldn't find that. So then I started to build my own spaces, and that's how Freedom Reader started.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:23)
Well, I can relate to that so much because I am a community builder as well. I think you may have used community architect. I'm like, I like that word. sounds a little more like it holds some distinction in that, because I think that we often discount in a way or maybe I just do this to myself, but I think others do as well.
Altagracia Montilla (12:27)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:42)
we often sort of discount that as an actual skill, because sure, anyone can make a place like you've said, but I don't know that everyone can create space. And the kind of space we're talking about, that space where people feel free to drop the mask, where you can feel your shoulders go down, you can feel your chest open up and you're like,
Altagracia Montilla (12:48)
But I hope that everyone can create space. And the crisis we're talking we're talking about space where people feel free to drive the shit they're doing.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:01)
I can breathe in this space, And those are not so easy to create, but I've had the similar experience of, can't find where I feel that way. And so I create, and I love holding space like that for people because I can see the change in how people show up when they enter a space like that, Yeah.
Altagracia Montilla (13:01)
can believe in that And those are not so easy to create. But I several experiences of, can't find where they feel like I'm So I create that, where I'm holding space like that for people because I can see the change of your strong point in our space like
to enter
a space like that, it is healing. You know, I think about like, I mean, just think about it, you know, and I used to be an educator. And so I'm thinking about it in the educator context and the context of being someone who goes into organizations now, who still supports educators K through campus. And it feels like every moment we have to be something that someone else wants us to be.
And that can be so exhausting. So to finally like take a deep breath and say, wow, like I can just exist. That is healing. It is nourishing. You know, I would say, please for you, Becky, for anyone listening to this, you know, if you are someone who really built community, is, I would say it's a sacred skill. It needs to be protected, nurtured, nourished. Like it is a very, very powerful and sacred skill, right?
to be able to create that. And, you know, it was also a facilitator of me speaking to you, like that's a facilitation skill. You know, the way I see it is like when I bring people together, whether it be virtually in freedom meters or it's in person at the seven space, I'm facilitating an experience for people. I the way I see it is I am holding space for everyone in the room as a collective and also as individuals. And I in that moment, the
the image that I think about is like I'm weaving something in the space where every single person's story kind of creates this collective experience, right? And so it's like everyone's story is like helping weave. I've seen an image of like everyone and like something being woven in the center, like a textile or something, this imaginary textile that represents just our stories and the way that we connect and the ability to be changed in a moment.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:55)
Yeah, it's beautiful.
mean, it is a tapestry that we all create. I like to say when I remember in spaces I create, like, just take a moment, like, let's ground into the fact that this same mix of people in this moment in time will never exist again. And what is what a gift that is like, let's be present and honor that. And that's something that I don't think we're often encouraged to do
Altagracia Montilla (15:07)
That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:15)
And I don't think that, you know, so much of our online life does that. mean, I think Zoom or, you know, having spaces where we get together virtually can still facilitate that if we create it. want to start with your online community because that's where you started with the book group and then moved to in person. What made you start the online? I you said you couldn't find the space you wanted, so.
Altagracia Montilla (15:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:36)
It was about that. What was it that you were trying to get out of this freedom? Freedom readers, I believe it's called. Yes, the freedom readers. And I've seen your book list and I'm like, I've read so many of these. I need to join this group because it's great. A great collection of books. But what was it that what was it about that space that you were trying to accomplish What did you want the experience to be for people who are going to be in that space?
Altagracia Montilla (15:42)
Yes, freedom readers yeah yeah.
Yeah, good! You'd love it!
I, you know, my intention, and again, this is around 2020 that I built this, it really was that people can take that mask off. was, you know, the term I kept on using was that the us connecting together would allow us to heal together. It would allow us to be energized, you know, like the way I see it is this, right? Like I,
I now that I know a lot of the freedom readers today, but at that moment, I thought to myself, I don't know where everyone's coming from when they come into this space, right? And I don't know where they're going to necessarily afterwards. But no matter what they're doing, like that, the fact that that we work together in that moment, we talked about a text, it inspired us and moved us. We cried together, we laughed together. Like because they had that experience, they are a little more energized to do whatever it is that they have to do for the rest of their day. You know, they feel a little more grounded, right?
And a lot of folks who are attracted to freedom readers, and it was very intentionally designed so that it attracts these folks, are persons who care about social justice. These are persons who care about social impact, who are thinking about it constantly, whether it's it's embedded in their work, or that's just a part of just the kind of person that they all are. And so it can be very, again, exhausting to...
to think about these things and recognize, man, have this vision of what you want the world to look like, and then also look at the kind of world we're learning in. And so that was the point. I also named this, you I also do believe in, and you named this a little bit when talking about Octavia Buller, I believe in dreaming forward the kind of world that we should exist in, right? I always say, I do not know, Becky, and by I don't know, I really doubt that I will be alive to see the grand sweeping change across this nation and across this globe that I would love to see.
I think it'll last longer than I am alive and I have made peace with that. I'm still gonna do the work that I can to create the change that I can in my bubble. But what I do believe very deeply is that my ability as a community architect, as a person who holds space, as a person who has third spaces, my ability to hold those in a way that is aligned with that vision means it is real right now. So I won't see it grand sweeping.
But I can see it in freedom meters. I can see it at the seven space. I can see it in whatever collective I go to to visit or wherever I facilitate. Like the fact that I'm able to, whether it be for a moment or an extended period of time, create that world that should exist in that space. like, it exists. I was able to see it before I go. And that's really what the intention was. The intention was that the vision of what we want this world or this country, this nation to look like, we can be that at freedom meters. So.
you know, something that I did in that space is I said, we will dare to love each other, right? I know maybe you don't know each other, but let's just dare to see what could be possible if we walked into the spaces and man, these persons care about the world in the same way I do. They're trying to bring forward the same world that I want to bring forward. I'm going to choose to love them, whatever that might mean in this space. And let's just see. And so it started with texts. So we would. And the reason why I chose books was because I felt like folks would.
feel a little safer at first to like open up if they're talking about a text and show a bit of themselves and eventually, you know, folks would, you know, share their their whole stories. But it started with texts and then we started talking about our own stories. So we write books, we've done a series that was just about our own stories. And we've even done a series that was about art because we were reading the artist's way together. So we explored art together and our own arts. That was really beautiful. And this is like a little bit of a spoiler, but we're
Right now I'm working on a writing series with the Freedom Readers as well. you know, it's really taken, you know, it's really went from a text to just our us being the text, right? Our stories being the text.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:26)
it also shows that community when it's true community and it's not following this hierarchical top down thing that we're so used to that the community evolves because the community starts to create what it wants to be right when we try to dictate what the community the third space that place needs to be. Then it remains that thing it becomes stagnant
Altagracia Montilla (19:30)
I'm gonna miss it.
Yes.
even if it's in a separate place.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:47)
You started, I don't know if you started with these books, but the first two I saw on your list were both Octavia Butler. There was Parable of the Sower, Parable of the Talents. I don't know if those were your first choices for the community or not, were they? Yeah, perfect. I mean, that's the best. I explained what I like about Octavia, but I'd love to hear from you. What is it about Octavia that sort of fits into your philosophy around
Altagracia Montilla (19:51)
Yes. Parabellus over was the first one. Yeah.
Yeah.
fits into your philosophy.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:07)
technology balance, community, that sort of thing.
Altagracia Montilla (20:11)
I get almost emotional when I talk about Octavia, but I love parable that much. You know, I recognize the time that the text really resonated with people. So I was like listening to, know, facilitating me just felt what others were feeling. So I decided to invite that text. I also do believe that when, you know, doing the work of like being the world that we want to create, we have to be honest about the world that we are living in.
And, you know, in many ways, I love just sci-fi post-apocalyptic text just because I sometimes in many ways, I feels more honest than what I see in the real world. And I think some folks can be like, well, that sounds, know, Octavia, but that was too dark. I think, man, it was, I mean, for there be hope in what seemed like the worst of times, that's what we're doing every day.
And I felt like that was the most inspiring text that I could have chosen at the time. And again, we quite literally cried together and laughed together and hoped together, dreamed together. And so it was really, really special. And that book will forever be, you know, extremely special, not just because of how talented Octavia is in the text itself, but because it was the first book that we read together.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:17)
OK, let's talk about in-person third space because it's a big leap. mean, think a lot of people who are business owners or, you know, whatever, for whatever reason, especially following 2020, so many communities moved online. think people got there's obviously Zoom fatigue and people are still pretty used to it.
Altagracia Montilla (21:25)
were reasoned especially in 2020 so many communities moved online I think people got in here obviously because of fatigue and people are so pretty used to
it. The stakes feel a little bit more especially in their introvert especially if they're not having a chance to build up some of these skills about people that you know. Doing in-person training can be scarier for
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:35)
the stakes feel a little lower, especially if you're introverted, especially if maybe you've not had a chance to build up some of these skills about people-ing and being in community. Doing in-person community can be scarier for both the
people doing it, but certainly from a business standpoint, a lot scarier as far as investment, what that's gonna look like, potential losses and all of that. So what...
Altagracia Montilla (21:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:58)
motivated you to say, I'm ready to go from having online spaces to actually creating like more of what I would call sort of a true third space and that it is a physical location outside of the home where people can come. And what made you do that? And then what was the model? Because I know you mentioned earlier, part of the one of the hallmarks is people not having to necessarily pay. Obviously you have rent. So how does that work for you?
Altagracia Montilla (22:20)
Ooh, okay. So one thing I would name is that, and how people decide to do this can really vary, but for us, and my partner and I built this together, and both of us have been facilitators of community, facilitators of, you know, art spaces and wellness and wellbeing in different forms over, you know, 10 years at this point. And so we had this vision of building a physical place that people can go to and experience. Ancestral technology is the phrase that I like to use, or ancestral intelligence.
You know, the framing when we invite people into the seven space, what we tell folks is that the seven space embodies our belief that art has the power to heal and that community has the power to heal as well. And community is art in many ways, right? And so we practice that art together as a collective with the programming that we have there. You know, we lead programs at the seven space. It's not like we don't do it for money.
We have other businesses that we run as well at the same time, but it is a space that is aligned with our beliefs, you know, our values. And, you know, it is the only space of its kind in our city, in our entire city. It is the only space that has programming like the programming that we actually have. We do everything for having art exhibitions, which they are art galleries here.
But we also again, lean into the ancestor technology. So everything from like breath work to meditation to altar building has been in the space, astrology workshops, or reading, like, you know, all of that has been in the space in one. And so yeah, it is, it is an investment. think the biggest investment is the energy that it takes to hold a space like that, to invite people in, to trust that the persons who are coming into the space are going to trust the space, are going to care for the space.
every moment from when we put an event out or even think about an event, let alone even tell people about it. From that moment to the moment they leave after the event is over, like the facilitation experience is throughout the entire thing. And when we were building it, we were real visionaries, like every moment. And I don't know for folks who have built something is stressful because you need something to be done at a certain time and it's not going to be done and you have to wait.
But the entire time we would create a vision for ourselves of what it would look like and what it would feel like to bring people in, you know, to have folks experience the, the, we know to be healing experiences and for folks to be in that. and we realized that it was really working, especially when some time ago where someone came into the space and I asked him like, how did you hear about us? And the person said, well, my therapist experienced a workshop here, loved it and said, I should come here too to experience wellness.
And I was like, okay, but they're just recommending this space and it's doing something right. And you know, every time we are in this space and to see people connecting and laughing together and it's just, it really is beautiful.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:00)
It has to feel so good to be able to provide that kind of space. This isn't really a business podcast, so we don't have to go into all the business elements of running it. But is the model like a nonprofit or are there fees for people to attend things?
Altagracia Montilla (25:07)
Right. Right.
So it is under our nonprofit. So we have a nonprofit as well as our business. And our business is, we do consulting for organizations to help them build teams, to push forward strategies. I always say to build teams that can create movements is what we do. And there are some programming where we do pay, because we want to make sure the people who are leading the sessions are paid. So they themselves, we want to pay them. And I also believe in like energetic offerings to a space.
There are times where I say to folks, bring something to the space, whatever you can. So there's that. But there are a lot of free programming as well. There's a lot of free programming. So we just had a free program recently on archiving, which is really beautiful.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:55)
I think for some people, mostly the folks who look like me, probably listening would be like, well, it has to make money or why would you do it you know, in our sort of capitalist conditioning around third spaces. And that's part of the problem, I think we have, We have libraries. Those are probably the most. ⁓
Altagracia Montilla (25:59)
Yeah.
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:13)
universal, I think, sort of example that people have beyond like a public park, those two probably, of like third spaces, public parks, libraries, both of them are free, accessible, opportunities for gathering, learning, those kinds of things, But for the most part, I think we don't have in America a lot of accessible, truly accessible, not just ⁓ disability accessible, that as well, but also just like class accessibility.
Altagracia Montilla (26:29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:38)
two-thirds spaces, they just aren't enough of them. And that has been, I think, very apparent for a lot of people, especially as we notice people dealing with the quote unquote problem of unhoused folks, you know, and the more that people are wanting to say, we don't want these folks showing up where we have to see them. It's like, it becomes clear to people there isn't a solution because we don't have spaces for people to exist, So going back to Octavia Butler.
Altagracia Montilla (26:39)
It's new.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:04)
What is your Octavia Butler-esque sort of vision? What should America be doing differently when it comes to third spaces, when it comes to community?
Altagracia Montilla (27:13)
Wow,
wow, wow, where do I start? I'm letting it sit because, you know, to think about it a frame that's like, what could America do? It's a part of me that is recognizing in this moment that I kind of like gave up on America, waiting on America to do something,
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:29)
if we wait around for our leaders to take action, we see what happens, right? We know that. So that's that's very fair that your response is that.
Altagracia Montilla (27:33)
Yeah!
Yeah, you know, this also brings me back to the part about the the money piece, Because there are persons who will listen to this and say, how could you ever do that if you're not expecting to be, you know, swimming in cash at a certain point? And I really do move with the belief and this is a radical thing. And some folks might, you know, look at me like I'm bugging if I say this. But I really do believe that when you put something out there like something good will come in return, you know, so for instance, I remember leading a two part
a workshop series where I told people pay what you can and I had people paid $10 and I had people paid $4,000 right like there were some you know when you put something out there and people see the intention like they will gift to the space. mean that has happened to us in many different ways so I just want to name that as like there's ways to get creative about how to sustain a space financially. It doesn't have to just it doesn't have to just rest on like how much money do we have and how much money are we getting so there's that.
And one of the things that I really believe in that's really, really important is thinking about norms and the norms that we are going to sustain in the way that we live together in a particular space. I think about this in the online platforms. I also think about this IRL in-person, Where, you know, so every single time I have a facilitated experience in a third space, virtual, in-person, whatever it is,
I make sure that we think about what norms and I use, have my norms that I use. I call it the spirit of our culture, like the ethos of our culture. And it's just the way that we're supposed to move with each other. And I really do believe that being able to say that, let's say people know, okay, okay, I see what kind of space this is. I see how I'm supposed to be able to move in this space. I see how we're going to respect and honor each other in a space. And these aren't norms that sound like don't do this and do do this, Because I think sometimes norms can sound like that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:21)
It's like rules.
Altagracia Montilla (29:22)
Right,
rules, right. It's not that. know, one of the norms is like, whatever came up for you came up for a reason. You know, it's we are the ones we've been waiting for. It's, you know, allow yourself to flow. You know, one of my favorites is spirit is the economy and the capital here, which means share generously and receive generously, People will share from who the core of who they are. So please receive and to give, right?
So what norms we're keeping is really key. So for anyone who's holding any kind of space, right? Whether it be in a physical third space or even if it's just having a collective and bringing folks together, thinking about what are those norms? Like what are we trying to create together is really, really important. And so, and envisioning that is how do I make sure people feel the most comfortable? How do we make sure there's room for anyone, however they show up to feel safe in the place?
I didn't want to do rules because not every rule is going to apply for every person. So it really was about allowing people to relax in their bodies. That's really where the movement came
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:19)
Yeah, and a lot
of that's great for the people holding space, which I think is super important. I am curious on the flip side of that for the people who are maybe those people who've been like, yeah, it's time I need to I can feel the technology stuff just weighing me down. I need to find like real breathing human community. But I'm feeling a little rusty on that. what is your advice for folks? What are red flags they should look out for? What are green flags if they're thinking about sort of inserting themselves into some sort of community space?
Altagracia Montilla (30:30)
You
you
Yeah, I would say a couple of things I would name is, you know, it's a practice. So first off, I think the pressure to like go out there and find a large community and to feel a part of it immediately, it's a lot and it can feel overwhelming. And so starting small can be as simple as, you know, sitting in a coffee shop and deciding to ask a question to the person next to you. And maybe they won't become your BFF. Maybe they won't necessarily become someone you actually build community with, but that is still practice. It's kind of like doing cardio for the...
for the community building, right? Practice talking to someone sitting next to you or who's reading a text. You ask them a question about the book, allowing those little moments of building courage, I think is really, really important. I'm finding local events that are free. The library is a beautiful place to find free events. Local coffee shops will oftentimes have free events. And deciding to go, inviting someone with you, I think a big thing too is taking a chance.
You know, I think building community can feel a lot like dating, which is probably why it's a little scary. But taking a chance and sending invitations, inviting people to places and saying, Hey, I think this is really interesting. Would you be able to, you know, are you down to join? I think also, you know, I love the piece about moving offline a bit. I have a friend of mine who's in Rhode Island. She's a woman of color. She's brilliant. she started a group called black women making friends in Rhode Island. And instead of relying on the digital place to like,
market this group, she printed flyers and started posting them in the neighborhood, in the library, in the coffee shops. Like I thought that was so brilliant. And the people who saw those signs reached out. And I think there's a very special relationship they have to each other because it wasn't online. So being creative in the way that you attract persons.
is really important too. And I would say also be kind to oneself. know, people can get really nervous about building community and connecting with others and worried about, I say the right thing? Did I say the right thing? And I think when we're kind to ourselves, we also allow openness to feedback from others about how we're showing up and allowing ourselves to be fluid. And that kind of, think, releases some of that pressure.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:49)
out of this conversation, what's like one thing you wish people would do this week that just to help them start to restore some of that like humanity in their lives?
Altagracia Montilla (32:53)
Oooooh
can I say two things? Okay, the first thing I would say is journaling. And the reason why I say journaling, because I think restoring humanity with self, I think is important before we even connect with others. And journaling is an easy way to do that. So even just offering oneself a journal prompt or just reflecting on the day or the week ⁓ allows one to sit with one's own humanity. And I think before we can see someone else's humanity, we have to see our own.
⁓ And the other would be to just strike up a conversation with a stranger in a local space. That's what I would say. I think that would be nice.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:29)
it. Thank you for this, Alta gracia your
information will be in the show notes or the description wherever you're listening or consuming this. But where would you want people other than your website? Is there a place you like people to reach out?
Altagracia Montilla (33:41)
I, well we met on threads. So I would be more than happy for people to reach out on threads. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:47)
Good, I'll make
sure your threads link is in there. I see you also have your LinkedIn link, so we'll put all those things in there. Thank you so much for your time. I love this conversation and I'm gonna start calling myself a community architect and taking that work even more seriously because it is so important. So thank you.
Altagracia Montilla (33:57)
Yeah.
Thank you, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:05)
Thanks for listening to Analogish. This episode is over, but the world is still out there. Go find it.