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How do world-class agencies continue to grow profitably and hit their goals, even through the choppy waters and challenges of agency life?
How do leaders like Tiffany Sauder, Marcus Sheridan, Jay Acunzo, Shama Hyder, David C. Baker, Nikole Rose, and Zeb Evans think?
Join Agency Journey host Jakub Grajcar as he interviews agency operators and leaders to share insights, actionable tips, and hilarious stories from the builders who live in the agency trenches.
Each episode focuses on crucial aspects of growing an agency like building the right team, delegation, project management, client success and retention, and operating frameworks like EOS.
Brought to you by ZenPilot: we help lead your agency through the final project management implementation you’ll ever need. Book a call to learn more at ZenPilot.com/Call.
Don’t forget to rate + follow the podcast if you enjoyed it!
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:38:19
Speaker 1
Awesome. Welcome back to Agency Journey. My name is Gray MacKenzie from ZenPilot. I'll be your host today, but the voice you want to listen to primarily is my friend Kenny Lange, who is on Kenny has a cool story. We've been swimming in the same agency circles for a while, so I'm sure we'll be familiar to some of you who are who are listening, but now is on a track of us who've been doing a series here around us and the impact that's had on agencies and what are the pros and cons and ups and downs and all the things EOS so on, and bring Kenny on and talk about this newer program
00:00:38:19 - 00:00:43:00
Speaker 1
called System and Soul. And so we'll dig into all that. But Kenny, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.
00:00:43:15 - 00:00:45:05
Speaker 2
Thanks for having me. Gray. I'm excited.
00:00:45:15 - 00:01:02:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, Well, I'm so proud to get into this. Let's give people kind of a quick context. How do I place Kenny? Like, what's the the you know, the 30 seconds, 60 seconds story of here is my agency experience. And how did you get into what you're doing now?
00:01:03:09 - 00:01:28:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think I have a similar story to a lot of other agency owners, which is I'm an accidental agency owner. And so I started an agency because, you know, my family needed to eat. I was I was hungry, too. And I just hadn't found the thing that clicked for me. And but I was a nerd and I had an eye for design.
00:01:28:01 - 00:01:58:16
Speaker 2
And I didn't mind writing. And I was already starting to blog myself. And I thought, well, what if other people paid me to do it? So 2015 launched my my own agency, found the HubSpot partner community and opportunity very quickly and it lined right up and stayed a part of it and grew the agency up until spring of 2020.
00:01:58:16 - 00:02:25:12
Speaker 2
And that's when I made the decision. I finalized the sale of the agency to to a larger partner friend of mine that had been in contact that we had a lot of similarities but had really both gotten tired of trying to be agency owners by ourselves and not seeing our kids and and wives and things like that. And so we we decided a teaming up was good and stayed with them for for two years.
00:02:25:12 - 00:02:31:06
Speaker 2
So all in all spent you know, the last seven years of my life in the agency world.
00:02:32:07 - 00:02:56:02
Speaker 1
And then what is so you had some U.S. experience at a time when you found an email from us back in 2018 talking about implementing you were just starting down the path of self-implementation at your first agency and then you had kind of second experience in it. But today, like maybe and maybe this is let's just start with kind of what's the profile of what you do on a day-to-day basis?
00:02:56:14 - 00:02:59:22
Speaker 1
And let's get into what is system and soul versus EOS.
00:03:00:21 - 00:03:27:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, So day to day I'm a system and sales certified coach and so I'm helping companies implement the framework. And obviously there's a multitude of reasons why somebody is looking for any kind of business framework and then narrow it down to those that feel like system and sales are fit. I also help companies with psychological safety and implementing that.
00:03:27:15 - 00:03:55:17
Speaker 2
So if they want their DIY initiatives to stick or they're just looking for a more high performance, more innovative culture because I saw Google did a study and said psychological safety seems cool, let's just do the next cool thing. But certified they're in helping company. So really a lot of it's about helping companies hold space to create growth that sticks but is also people-centric.
00:03:55:17 - 00:04:24:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, so I'm on the FGCU page right now, which for those curious Kenny Lange is kennylange.com and we'll talk about this health care thing. But I think kind of like you said, the word framework. So what is as to and in this bucket of hay for folks who've been listening this we've talked a lot about the entrepreneurial operating system.
00:04:24:00 - 00:04:29:08
Speaker 1
What's what's the genesis of S2, and what does it look like to implement this in an agency?
00:04:30:01 - 00:05:00:05
Speaker 2
Right. Well, I'm glad you mentioned you're looking at my website. I wanted to make sure, like I know what I said on the face, but as to which is the abbreviation. So Entrepreneurial operating system has a U.S. system in Seoul has asked. So if I say that, that's what I'm talking about. It originated sort of that that December, January of 20, 20, 2021.
00:05:00:05 - 00:05:26:03
Speaker 2
So, you know, it's it's coming up on on a two year anniversary here. It really emerged not too dissimilar from the way EOS emerged from the legacy of you've got like scaling up with Vern Harnish for disciplines of execution have been around for a while. I don't know if people would consider that a codified framework and then you get the Rockefeller habits and things like that.
00:05:26:03 - 00:05:54:10
Speaker 2
So it's sort of it's in that same lineage and really evolved because of the time that Benj Miller and Chris Whyte, who are the co-founders, had spent time as implementers and saw things missing from the implementation, but also just the request they'd gotten from their clients. I mean, Chris was one of the first three EOS implementers like learned it from Gina Wickman and, and some Chicago hotel ballroom sort of thing.
00:05:55:14 - 00:06:14:00
Speaker 2
And so there's just certain patterns they noticed that were missing. And they just said, hey, you know, we like a lot of what's here. The systems are great. But the thing we keep hearing is we really need something that's a little bit more people focused, helps develop leadership as opposed to just weeding out who's who's not a great fit.
00:06:15:05 - 00:06:23:19
Speaker 2
What if we built something that evolved? And so, you know what they what they would tell you is that this is really the business framework for the next generation.
00:06:24:10 - 00:06:48:03
Speaker 1
Hmm. What does so being more people focused is in if you look at any of as to stuff, that's the messaging that's going hard. You know, there's a number of different things that would be differentiators. Well, actually, if I back up from that, let's talk let's I want to go the opposite direction and come back to it. But just for people who are not familiar, I want to go with like what's similar?
00:06:48:03 - 00:07:16:23
Speaker 1
So I look at it and says, you know, hey, we've got an organizational assessment which is now called the you know, we've got it on here is the health score page. Yeah. As to diagnostic, yeah. We've got in terms of the process, you know, here's the, here's the way that we got organizational health is broken into six key components again and you've got really shudder that I'm even saying like six can't even use the U.S. language.
00:07:17:11 - 00:07:31:09
Speaker 2
But we've got I can go get my binder. I've got it in the closet. Okay. Just in case anybody's wondering if I'm just like an astute fanboy who never experienced the Oscar, I have the binder, the books I have a lot of orange. Just so all the.
00:07:31:09 - 00:07:59:21
Speaker 1
Stuff we get the same or, you know, it's very similar, um, three phases, kind of building out vision and then quarterly sessions and then two days, like you look at it on paper, you're like, this is purely the EOS model revisited or with the, with a new coat of paint. So I think just to set that, to set that first, it's like, hey, there's a bunch of stuff that's similar between the two and feel free to call it anything that I miss that you're like, Hey, this is the other stuff that you just got right?
00:08:00:07 - 00:08:09:08
Speaker 1
But how do we what does that like? Hey, we're more people centric or focused on leadership development. Like, how does that play out tactically or practically?
00:08:09:08 - 00:08:30:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, and that's a great question. And it's something that that all of us coaches bump into with some with some regularity. Right. Because U.S. is really having a day in the sun. You know, it's the classic work hard for 20 years and suddenly you're an overnight sensation sort of thing. So, you know, they're building. And I think that's great.
00:08:30:21 - 00:08:54:00
Speaker 2
I mean, they're helping. It helped me and and it's helped a bunch of other businesses. I think a lot of the things they got right were where some of the things that I don't even think that were unique to EOS, they just, you know, just codified it. And then promoted the absolute mass out of it. So they were the most recognizable about doing things on a quarterly rhythm.
00:08:54:11 - 00:09:25:07
Speaker 2
Well, U.S. didn't invent that, right? Like that's existed and exists in a myriad of systems and tools and processes and recommendations. I think the way in which you implement a system or a framework, I think they definitely got right as a start. You know, in the U.S., you start with traction, right in your in your focus days and then you move on and and you start working on the vision and building your veto.
00:09:26:15 - 00:09:49:05
Speaker 2
I think producing movement and then adding vision to it was spot on. It is way different than everybody else who wants to get pie in the sky. It appeases the visionary and then but nothing really happens. It creates doubt. So there's all these downsides. So I think that that's spot on. On getting an or you know, we call it an org chart.
00:09:49:19 - 00:10:15:22
Speaker 2
U.S. calls it an accountability chart. But starting with that, to really understand the structure and making that a living document as opposed to basically some ugly Microsoft flowchart with people's faces of who reports to who and who's the the head honcho at the top of the pyramid. I think that's a terrible use of it, you know, So either way, accountability chart, org chart.
00:10:15:22 - 00:10:38:19
Speaker 2
You're in, you're in good company, you're in a good mix. They're assigning scores, scoreboards, dashboards. That's classic business. Like any business worth its salt is is looking at numbers on a regular basis. And hopefully it's not just revenue and PNL on a balance sheet because by that time you know stuff is already off the rails, if that's what you're looking at as your indicator.
00:10:38:19 - 00:11:02:03
Speaker 2
Right. So I think a lot of the systems side they got right now for, you know, whether it was for you want to say trademark reasons or there are some some subtle differences. There are some some there are a lot of similarities. I won't deny that. And that's some of what I like. I, I and nobody in the system.
00:11:02:03 - 00:11:28:10
Speaker 2
And so community says, you know, is turned in to Bobby Bush's mom and says, you know, us is the devil. Like it's not that it's this is a great place to start. But we saw a gap and we're evolving from it. And somebody is going to come along, see what Stu's doing, you know, probably be a coach for a little while and then maybe they see a gap in what we're missing and then evolved.
00:11:28:10 - 00:12:08:04
Speaker 2
There's going to be an evolution. This is not the end all, be all. And so I think that there are some subtle pieces inside of the systems piece that we kept that were slightly modified to really focus on people like in the org chart, where we add in the actual specific KPIs and something we call just a mission and use a tool called Commander's Intent, the Weekly Sync, which would sort of, you know, line up with your your level ten meetings, holds a little bit more space at the beginning for people to really connect with one another and drive core values down into the organization every time they're getting together.
00:12:08:21 - 00:12:37:05
Speaker 2
Personally, I find the structure of objectives. Maybe it's not as human centered, but I from a Hey, this is friendly to all the people in the company, I found its structure so much more helpful. And actually when we implemented this at the the last agency I was at, we saw in an increase in completion percentages. When we switch from building or creating rocks every quarter to creating objectives.
00:12:38:13 - 00:12:56:21
Speaker 2
So there's some subtle differences there. And then we can get into the whole soul of like, you know, what's your identity? There's not much that really deals with identity. And I know people will argue with me about the go to market piece on the on the veto, but I've used it and I've used the identity piece and I can tell you it's it's night and day.
00:12:56:21 - 00:12:59:00
Speaker 2
And that's not just unique to my experience.
00:13:00:03 - 00:13:27:08
Speaker 1
I want to dig into that next. But so as to has a software platform to sync. Yep. Which is, you know, EOS is now building out there. You know, it's one platform. You know, I would to do that obviously a way more valuable if there's a subset as a as an entity, if there's a software component in it.
00:13:27:08 - 00:13:39:19
Speaker 1
Maybe this is a question again, it's or so I can just speculate on it. But I'm always curious when I see stuff like this how much of this is a framework around like a fancy way to try and sell software and create a substantial recurring revenue base by creating a methodology, you know, almost a.
00:13:39:19 - 00:13:40:05
Speaker 2
Religion.
00:13:40:20 - 00:14:02:03
Speaker 1
Around it in order to sell to sell software, which is kind of a funny place. But what is tied to that? What is the business model? Because you mentioned, you know, U.S. is going down this franchise route every implementer is a is a franchisee. What's the to structure for how these coaches relate to the parent? Org?
00:14:03:04 - 00:14:33:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. Another another great question there. I'll I'll address the software piece just briefly is it if it were if the people at the at the top or the middle you know Chris and and Benj and then they have their their operator operator equals integrator in our world. McKenzie and a lot of those people I would I would go along with you and say yeah I think it was, you know write a book, write a thing to sell this other thing.
00:14:33:05 - 00:14:57:14
Speaker 2
It's really just marketing to sell more of that, right? It's I think if it were any other people, I think that that would be the case. I think they saw the need for software to complement because there are some particulars about it that don't make sense. Also, 90 who you know a lot of people are familiar with Benj and Chris co-founded 90 right?
00:14:57:23 - 00:15:21:08
Speaker 2
So it's like they saw the need for software even when they weren't the originators of the methodology. They saw like, hey, we've tried keeping track of this on on sheets of paper. For those of us who like to live in the nineties, I guess. And then there's there's all these other things. So I think the software helps in terms of clarity.
00:15:21:08 - 00:15:46:11
Speaker 2
You can create your own, you know, I know like Asana has its own like OKRs type of framework. I think Click up has some templates and things that are very friendly towards goals, planning, OKRs and structures that could hold it and you could sort of build it yourself, but it can be pretty painful. So not a lot of people want to put in the effort.
00:15:46:11 - 00:16:00:16
Speaker 2
So from that standpoint, see, we're coming from, but I don't think that that is the case. But maybe, you know, listeners think I'm biased, but your your follow up and I just I want to be honest, just blanket.
00:16:00:16 - 00:16:01:20
Speaker 1
You know, around coaches.
00:16:02:09 - 00:16:03:03
Speaker 2
Their coaches.
00:16:03:06 - 00:16:03:12
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:16:04:02 - 00:16:27:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. So everybody is on their on their own so it's not it's not a franchise model. We we technically it's not even you know you said that the parent company I get what you come from but it's it's not a parent child company relationship either so like my my coaching practice. Kenny Lane coaching stands on its own Is it?
00:16:27:05 - 00:16:53:13
Speaker 2
It's its own entity. I utilized the tool of system and sole in my practice, but like I was also, you know, mentioning before, I also use a tool called, you know, the four stages of psychological safety and, you know, eyeballing predictive index and some other things because, you know, one of the benefits of system as a whole is we can bring other tools to the table to help.
00:16:53:13 - 00:17:20:23
Speaker 2
We're not locked in to a tool, tool toolbox. There is a benefit to simplicity, to only having 20 tools in your toolbox. I get it. But as new research comes out, like six types of working genius just got released. We have a partnership with the Table group we have. We've integrated working genius into our software. We've also integrated predictable success with the leadership styles of visionary operator processor synergies.
00:17:20:23 - 00:17:44:22
Speaker 2
But for those of you who haven't checked it out, it's super, super cool if you if you're nerdy about these sort of things. But we've been able to integrate those things and find other tools to bring to the table, but the coaches have the freedom to bring anything else that they want to bring as well, because at the end of the day, it's not about buying a platform, a framework off the shelf, right?
00:17:44:22 - 00:18:07:04
Speaker 2
If that's all you want, then I don't matter. As a coach, as an implementer, I don't matter if you're buying the framework, you just you're buying a commodity. If that's what you want is an orange binder or a blue book. Okay, hats off to you. But then I cease to be a value add in the relationship, and there's no real incentive for me to be my own coach.
00:18:07:04 - 00:18:28:14
Speaker 2
And that's what I really love, is I also have the opportunity to hone my craft as a coach who's charged with bringing a tool to bear, but also bringing out the best in my clients so they can act with it. Because, you know, once I'm gone, whether at the end of the session, end of a year, end of the relationship, it's that leadership team's business.
00:18:28:14 - 00:18:51:01
Speaker 2
If that's owner's business, they're the ones left with it, not me. So I would rather than buy a service from someone, I would compare it to, say, a carpenter, right. Like you going out and saying like, Hey, what, what kind of sword do you use, you know, and nails and a hammer. Well, did you create that hammer? Did you create?
00:18:51:01 - 00:19:15:18
Speaker 2
That's all. No, but I'm a darn good practitioner with it. I know how to use it. I mean, if you gave me a hammer, some nails and a saw, there's a good chance I'm going to the E.R.. But there are master craftsman out there who you give them. You know, a few, you know, a couple of two by fours, and they'll say materials and you've got like a nice gazebo or something like that, right?
00:19:15:18 - 00:19:31:11
Speaker 2
You know, they're like a MacGyver. You know, make a bomb out of this quick sort of thing. You know, tools make a difference in different hands. And that's part of the value prop is the screening process certification. And then how do you go out into the world.
00:19:32:23 - 00:19:51:04
Speaker 1
To try to oversimplify for people who are familiar with like the HubSpot ecosystem, is it more like that relationship? Obviously, it's not just the software, there's a methodology there, but two separate businesses you pay, you know, as a coach, you pay an annual licensing fee back to S to to continue using tools, have ongoing sort of certification, stuff like that.
00:19:51:19 - 00:20:25:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. So tools support the coach community is, is fantastic. It really does and I know you you get this because you've been part of the community longer than I have is you know that HubSpot partner Ecos system is is a phenomenal is so unique what HubSpot is built in that community because I've been you know just like you and Andrew have is part of a bunch of different partner programs and you know, the vast majority of them are just like, here's an affiliate link.
00:20:25:09 - 00:20:47:17
Speaker 2
If you come across somebody who kind of likes our stuff and you want to make a buck, here you go. And it wasn't really engaged. It is far more that model of like, okay, you are serving our end users and it's going to be better than if they went on it by themselves. Because, you know, we have a like a self-guided version of system.
00:20:47:17 - 00:21:09:12
Speaker 2
And so you can pay some money, go to the videos. It's you know, like HubSpot Academy on steroids sort of thing. But at the end of the day, the stickiness came when partners got involved, right, with HubSpot, that's what they found. And then that's why you know that channel now, I think it's I don't remember the last metric accounts for like half their revenue.
00:21:09:19 - 00:21:38:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, pretty crazy. So I only go back to the identity thing that you mentioned before. Can we talk a little bit more about what that's like and we can put it from either side? I think part of juxtaposing it to EOS is because that's the framework that people have in mind. Yeah, but there are also be some people who are not that familiar with the usage, just kind of, you know, as to standing on its own feet in terms of the identity piece and what people development should look like in an agency.
00:21:39:06 - 00:22:12:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, So and it's so hard in an agency because so many of the technical skills that once set you apart are now commoditized. But you can and there's, you know, a ton of outsourcing overseas. You know, you can get a decent English speaking graphic designer for or a developer for 15 bucks an hour. Why would they need to come to you and pay your premium blended rate of one 5200 to 50 an hour?
00:22:12:12 - 00:22:33:18
Speaker 2
Right. Is really knowing like, who are you for? So, you know, part of our our road roadmap is our PTO and it's a one pager and we say, you know, there's there's several components just like a veto of several components. But on the top there's three different pieces that we really consider part of the vision and identity piece.
00:22:33:18 - 00:23:03:15
Speaker 2
And one of them is something called an only nest state. And it comes from Marty Niemeyer's book Zag, which is a great read if you're looking for some marketing and branding identity stuff. But it really says like, what are we the only art? And that's not necessarily something that that is outward facing, it's internal facing. It's who am I uniquely built design called to serve who, who, who are the people that I.
00:23:03:19 - 00:23:31:22
Speaker 2
I can make a dent in the universe with this people group and right now, I mean agencies, you know, across the board, but especially I mean, I've just seen it more up close in the HubSpot world is well it used to be HubSpot equaled marketing Hub. Well now HubSpot equals CRM C CMC Service Hub Ops hub marketing like sales hub service like.
00:23:32:16 - 00:23:52:06
Speaker 2
And now you have people who are specializing in just one hub or a combination of two hubs or something like that. So now you're really thinking and HubSpot is pushing this too, which I think is smart, is what are you really good at and who can you really help? Which sort of floats into the hedgehog concept From Jim Collins.
00:23:52:06 - 00:24:13:10
Speaker 2
Good to great Chapter five if you're interested, but what could you be the best in the world at? I started my agency doing web design. I would never call myself a graphic designer. I would either outsource that or, you know, I could maybe I could if they weren't want to pay a lot, I could do it. And it was simplistic.
00:24:13:10 - 00:24:38:19
Speaker 2
And thank God for Canva. But if if you have a few things that you are really, really good at, where can you be in the best in the world that you need some you are naturally a dominant player at, but then you've got to intersect that with what gets you out of bed in the morning. So that kind of comes back to I felt like I was naturally good at web design, marketing some of that stuff, but it wasn't really getting me out of bed in the morning.
00:24:38:19 - 00:24:55:06
Speaker 2
What got me out of bed in the morning were the people in the agency holding to the framework and the systems that helped me unlock what those people actually wanted? You know, the owner included, that got me out of bed. And then I saw like, wait a second, I'm pretty good at this. And oh, people pay for this.
00:24:55:06 - 00:25:30:15
Speaker 2
So economic engine, so because if you only have two out of those three, it's pretty tough to keep going. Like either you're going to be starving but joyful, I guess, or you could be rich and miserable. And we've all heard about people who've burned out there. But, you know, when you're an agency owner or any small business owner, you chances are a big part of that reason was you got into business because you wanted the freedom, you had some goals and you probably saw people were already asking you for the kind of help you discovered you could charge money for.
00:25:30:15 - 00:26:16:16
Speaker 2
And then it just started building from there what you in fact probably feel like now or have felt like you've built is a prison for yourself. And I want to wage war on that because it will. It'll feel like hell. And there's no reason that anybody who had the courage to jump out and start a business in particular, one in the agency world, which now is so tied to overall business growth, it's not just could you make a website and some really cool marketing things, cool like it's my business is going down unless you help me generate leads and I want to make sure that those people stay in the fight because it's really, really
00:26:16:16 - 00:26:40:04
Speaker 2
hard. And so that's where I think nailing that identity piece and then where you're going by when and why it's important, because you're going to get tired, you're going to get beat up. You know, Mike Tyson, the wise philosopher, said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. And being a small business owner and being an agency owner is like signing up to be punched in the face every day.
00:26:40:04 - 00:27:08:14
Speaker 1
Sometimes that's true. I want to ask you about does it matter how many 1 to 3 key things agency owners should be doing to better care for develop and leverage their team. But and that's where we'll wrap up just because we're going to be running out of time here. Sure. But I'm going to shout that out first to say, get your brain working on that.
00:27:09:07 - 00:27:50:17
Speaker 1
And while you're chewing on that, I want to point people towards the diagnostic that's too diagnostic for your health score, and that's at kanilang. Again, language with E at the end, that com slash health score, which is all one word and go there, take the free assessment and then obviously get in touch with with Kenny through the site and if there's other resources you got a point people to work towards as well can you feel free to but what's what's the obvious the low hanging fruit like dang, I wish we'd done this earlier in our agency or, or conversely, you know, the stuff that worked really well.
00:27:50:17 - 00:27:57:23
Speaker 1
It seems like it should be common sense. Everybody just came naturally to you.
00:27:57:23 - 00:28:44:04
Speaker 2
Don't skip out on your one on ones, though. Those will do. It's weird because you can't necessarily tie in ROI to it. And I know as is marketers and agency owners and everything, it's CPAs and all this stuff. I mean, I'm sure, you know, peat Data box is going to come up with a way to have a metric for for this, but I don't skip on those maintain them and that's that's a key piece of that we teach is one on ones and those in those quarterly conversation sort of things too, where we have what we call healthy fit conversations and, and if anybody's interested, I'm happy to send over a free sort of like
00:28:44:04 - 00:29:06:03
Speaker 2
one pager on some questions and a structure there. But it makes a huge difference. It's what I think allowed me to punch above my weight was that I got in the dirt and stayed connected with my people every other week. They were having a one on one with me and it was maybe 30 minutes. I was asking, What brings you energy?
00:29:06:03 - 00:29:31:07
Speaker 2
What? Rob's your energy. And here's a here's a big one. If anybody's daring enough and I don't pat myself on the back of this scared the crap out of me when I asked it, which is, what do you know about me that I don't. But I should. Yeah, it's like ask that question and get the feedback and then don't just take it in, but act on it.
00:29:31:19 - 00:29:58:21
Speaker 2
You will. It's inspire a loyalty you didn't know was possible. When you start doing that as a leader, whether you're the owner, whether you're running ops or something else, that's huge. The other thing I would say, and this is specific to our our visionary and owner friends, people may not do as well as you want them to right out of the gate.
00:29:59:03 - 00:30:23:00
Speaker 2
They will catch up but get you a number to you need that pairing. It will make all the difference in the world. And I'm not saying that every every success that the last agency it was mine by no means. I mean, I made plenty of mistakes. We could fill up hours on my mistakes, but over the course of time, we nearly doubled revenue.
00:30:23:00 - 00:30:51:03
Speaker 2
And and we've that and we functioned as a one and a two. And it was you know, it was tough on both of us, but it ended up producing some things that were better. And so make the transition from being founder led to leadership team led and you'll build a business that doesn't always need you if you want to exit is far more valuable if it runs on a system than on your personality, and ultimately you're going to be more profitable.
00:30:51:13 - 00:31:17:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, I want to I want to press I said, this is going to be the last one in this this one we but the one on one. So EOS has the five, five, five. The quarterly conversation you were talking about how you fit with core values, the roles and responsibilities rocks. But for most mature orgs running on EOS, the default recommendation is you don't need one on ones.
00:31:17:03 - 00:31:37:21
Speaker 1
On top of that, you may need ad hoc meetings, but you want to push as many of those conversations as can happen towards your l tens have as much stuff as can go public public facing. But it sounds like the recommendation is no, actually you still want bi weekly one on ones with full time folks. Obviously part time people might look less frequent or whatever, but yeah, in quarterly conversations.
00:31:37:21 - 00:31:38:13
Speaker 1
Is that accurate?
00:31:39:18 - 00:32:04:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I wouldn't say bi weekly is a sacred cow either, right? Like, figure that part out. But if the only time you're really understanding and talking about how somebody really is is quarterly, it's way infrequent. Yeah. And yes I know weekly sinks or level tends or things like that are meant for as a place to be open and honest.
00:32:04:02 - 00:32:27:10
Speaker 2
But what I have witnessed is, number one, people say that they want radical candor and open, honest communication in a group setting. But the fact of the matter is most people find it jarring and it takes them a while to adjust. We had people freak out at the agency because of how open and honest several of us that got comfortable quickly were being it.
00:32:27:17 - 00:32:47:09
Speaker 2
I'm talking to a year minimum to get comfortable and even then not super people are wired differently. Like I'll share anything, but it's because I know I can argue and debate with the fence post if I need to. And but there are a lot of people who they will not open up unless you put in the one on one time.
00:32:47:09 - 00:33:09:03
Speaker 2
I mean, you I know people may be uncomfortable with this, but think of it like a marriage. If you were only ever or even dating, if you only ever talk to that person in a group setting, how well do you think you're actually going to know them as opposed to one on one? It's you and me. I get to ask you questions, I get to keep following up and we're going to go deeper.
00:33:09:03 - 00:33:30:22
Speaker 2
So there's there's a depth there that can be achieved. And when you do that, when you're the leader now, you start to understand what motivates them, what scares them, and how you can best help them. Because leadership is not a one size fits all game. I know we all want it to be because that maximizes efficiency. But this is not about being efficient.
00:33:30:22 - 00:33:51:16
Speaker 2
It's about being effective. Because you have to remember at the end of the day, that person will move on or to another job or they go home to spouse and kids or friends or whatever it is. They're a person. And what you did in the business that day probably won't be remembered, but the relationship will and your impact on that person will.
00:33:51:23 - 00:34:06:18
Speaker 2
And you are playing for your reputation that will outlast your own life and if you play that way, you will win. You may not make the most money, but I guarantee you you will be a winner and you will touch more lives that way.
00:34:06:23 - 00:34:14:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a great place to wrap up. Okay. Thanks for coming on point. Thanks for having say anywhere else you want, you want to point people?
00:34:15:20 - 00:34:38:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would also I'd love to connect with anybody on LinkedIn so I know it's got its little, you know, slashes and stuff. I don't know why they put that I in slash again, but I am kanilang. I did stake my claim on my own name there, so I'm always excited and happy to brag about that, but would love to connect with anybody on LinkedIn and connect with me on the website.
00:34:38:18 - 00:34:49:12
Speaker 2
I'm happy to answer any questions, comparisons, or just, you know, listen, if you need a safe place to process your wild and crazy ideas without upsetting your team, please just let me know how I can serve you.
00:34:49:22 - 00:34:51:23
Speaker 1
Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on today. I appreciate it.
00:34:52:12 - 00:34:53:11
Speaker 2
Thanks for having me. Great.