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Classical Education is a podcast perfect for learning about the tradition of a liberal arts education. We invite you to join us on a journey in pursuit of the True, the Good, and the Beautiful as we participate in the great conversation and listen to the many voices coming from the world of classical education.
Welcome to Classical Education, a podcast for those who believe in rediscovering the art of asking questions, engaging in conversation, and attending to the ideas at the heart of well ordered teaching and learning. I invite you to join me on a journey in pursuit of the true, the good, and the beautiful as a participant in the great conversation and listen to the many voices coming from the world of classical education.
Adrienne Freas:Well, I am here today with somebody very special that I have been wanting to interview for a long time. I follow her podcast and her newsletters, and she is a Charlotte Mason Classical Education expert. Both of us she still homeschools, so I know her through the homeschool world. But she also started a school, which I'll probably have her tell a little bit about. And so allowing her to kind of share her story and the various areas that she has a lot of influence in, I'm going to welcome to our show Brandy Vencel. Welcome.
Brandy Vencel:Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I'm glad it finally worked out for us to chat. I feel like we've been trying for, I don't
Adrienne Freas:know A long time.
Brandy Vencel:A year. A long time.
Adrienne Freas:I have this problem with a lot of my guests, though, because we're all busy.
Brandy Vencel:Yeah. Isn't that the truth.
Adrienne Freas:So Brandy, I want you to briefly share with my audience how you got into the Charlotte Mason Classical Education world and a little bit about even the school you helped to start, I think, out in California, right? Yes.
Brandy Vencel:Yes. Going strong, actually. Well, I mean, I came in through the Cindy Rollins door as far as Charlotte Mason goes, which I think is really common for homeschoolers my age. So because she was one of about four homeschool blogs on the Internet twenty, twenty five years ago. It's true.
Brandy Vencel:It's true. So there weren't a lot of options, and god bless her for being one of the options because some of the others, I just didn't really resonate with. So she introduced me to Charlotte Mason. I had never heard of classical education before or any of this stuff. And so I think it was my 27 I'm 48.
Brandy Vencel:I think it was, like, my 20 birthday. I had been reading her blog, my husband bought me Charlotte Mason's six volume set. That's my birthday gift. So I just started reading that, and that was all I knew. I mean, I think it was the first bit of educational philosophy I'd ever read in my life. And then it was Cindy who started talking about the connections with classical education. And Mhmm. A couple years after that, she had us start reading books like Poetic Knowledge and Norms of Nobility. She would run these very informal book clubs where it was, like, those of us who had blogs or even those of us who didn't, she would post a schedule. We could read along. We could talk about it in the comments of the different blog posts and different things. And I it's, like, so outdated, this mode of doing things now. I don't think anybody really does it this way anymore, but it was actually super formative for me. I was this young mom. I only had a couple of kids and just starting to work through Charlotte Mason.
Brandy Vencel:And, I mean, because I had children, right, I had the ability to start trying to apply the ideas right away. Mhmm. So and I feel like it just kept growing from there. Because once I had a taste for it, I loved. I loved it all.
Brandy Vencel:I loved reading all the philosophy. I loved thinking about it, and it just continued to grow. And so, you know, Karen Glass writes her book, and I read that, and I there's just all sorts of things. So it's really hard for me to pinpoint exactly where it grew bigger than Charlotte Mason to a broader classical education for me because I felt like it was such a gentle natural growth that it wasn't just one thing and then the whole world opened up. It
Adrienne Freas:was just all the kinda similar to me too. And I know you've read a lot of you know, you've read Aristotle and all the different I call them the the the fathers of classical education. You've read them as well. Mhmm. And that's kind of rare to find somebody who's actually read them and read Charlotte Mason. So that's one of the reasons I wanted you to come on my show because you have a really broad knowledge of understanding and depth of understanding. And I read your I don't know. Is it monthly newsletter that you send out? I love your little emails.
Adrienne Freas:They're wonderful because they're super short. And I'm like, that's what I need to do is just write really, really short, powerful emails, and you do a really good job at that. So Awesome. At the end of the show, anybody who's listening, you will, go to the show night notes and everything you need to know about how to connect with, Brandy and get her newsletter, it'll all be there. Okay.
Adrienne Freas:So tell us about your school in California.
Brandy Vencel:So what I like to say, there was a group of us at our church who got bored during COVID because California was shut down for a really long time. And so naturally, that's a good time to start a new institution. It probably helped to that. The schools were shut down for so long. Children were running wild.
Brandy Vencel:There were all these issues in the neighborhoods because it because of it. Mhmm. Because, you know, at some point, the parents basically had to return to work and not worry about the fact that the children were running around the neighborhood. So at any given morning in 2021, I would have, like, between five and ten little boy bicycles on my front lawn because I was one of the only moms that was home in the neighborhood, and all these elementary students were running around. And it was really it feels very wild west looking back on it.
Brandy Vencel:But we just thought, well, what if we what if we built something different and we built a school that was protected from being shut down? Mhmm. Especially for this long of a period of time because I think they were closed I wanna say it was almost eighteen months total by the time you kinda they had times where they would open back up and then they close again. And it was just really very difficult on the on the families, on the students, and and so I was invited. It was not my idea.
Brandy Vencel:I was invited to join this team of people who were putting a school together, and I basically told them, I will help you, but I really wanna build a school that's the kind of school that I would actually send my children to. Like, I don't wanna do it half hearted where we kinda slap some names on it, but we're really just doing the same old thing that the other schools are doing. And so we had a few moments where it we were able to because there was one other Ambleside because I've used Ambleside online forever. There was one other AO mom that was on the team. And so we were able to kinda show them, like, this is what this is what a full orbed curriculum would look like.
Brandy Vencel:This you know, that kind of thing. And it was it was so encouraging because even though everyone wasn't always sure what we were talking about, they gave us their vote of confidence, and we've built this really sweet little school. It's super low tech, which I love. I mean, just really giving I feel like they're getting the experience of a pre 2,000 education in many ways during their school days. I mean, yes, there is a TV screen in the room.
Brandy Vencel:The teacher can turn on a laptop and show, you know, like, a picture that would be helpful for maybe an architecture class or that kind of thing. But for the most part, all that stays off and, you know, the children it's I feel like it's so much more than the content because of the way things are done today where they are it they are screen free throughout the day, and we work on habit training. So they're building this super healthy community, and we work with them on how they interact with each other, and it's just become the sweetest thing. I really it's one of the biggest things I miss about California. Was getting to see it on the ground because I moved to Texas, but thankfully, they let me still serve on the board.
Brandy Vencel:I just I do it like this.
Adrienne Freas:I How how many what's what are the grades and how many students are enrolled?
Brandy Vencel:It is k through eight. So no high school. High school just gets so complicated and expensive Mhmm. That we would love to do it someday, but we haven't been able to figure out a way to do that well. And I'm trying to figure it's a little school.
Brandy Vencel:I'm trying to figure out I wanna say there's like, like, between sixty and seventy students this year.
Adrienne Freas:Oh, that's a pretty good size.
Brandy Vencel:It's been growing steadily. Yeah. We had so one of the big things with the exodus from California is that we would have whole families leave the school, and there was nothing we could do about it because it wasn't anything we had done. It was dad got a job in a better state, or they were done with the state and wanted to leave.
Brandy Vencel:And so we had a few moments where we felt like we might be getting so small that we are gonna fold. And then the Lord has just blessed it and given it new life, and it is just still going, and it's the biggest enrollment we've had so far is this year. So, we're Wow.
Adrienne Freas:Do you wanna share the name of the school? Sure.
Brandy Vencel:It's called Providence Classical Academy. It's in Bakersfield, California, which is at the bottom of that big valley down the middle of California.
Adrienne Freas:Beautiful. It's a Charlotte Mason Classical School. It is. That's lovely. I love it.
Adrienne Freas:So I invited you today, especially because I really want our listeners to hear us having conversation about Prudence. This is Okay. Prudence is you're having a retreat coming up soon, and we're gonna talk about that retreat because I want people to know about your retreat on specifically on Prudence. I want you to share a little bit about why you're doing that retreat and your future plans for more of these retreats. But I rarely have people coming on my program to talk about Virtue and it's like this is a Classical Education podcast. We should be talking about Virtue a little bit more. And prudence is a specific virtue that I've had a lot of experience with in my own personal life.
Adrienne Freas:And so I wanted to bring you on to talk about focusing on prudence, especially. We're gonna kind of unpack it today and kind of what share together what what the Lord has been speaking to us regarding prudence. But before I do, why don't we give our listeners a quick overview of the four cardinal virtues because somebody might be listening today and have no idea what they are. Sometimes I have brand new listeners. They're brand new to Classical Education.
Adrienne Freas:They've never really thought about the virtues or talked about them. So would you want to go over quickly what those four cardinal virtues are?
Brandy Vencel:Sure. So there are well, traditionally, we say there's seven virtues. Right? Mhmm. So there's the cardinal virtues, there's the theological virtues. The theological virtues are the ones that come to us from God. We I mean, yes, we sure. We can develop this. So faith, hope, and love. Of course, we can grow in faith, hope, and love, but they're very much a grace to us.
Brandy Vencel:So the cardinal ones are the ones we say are accessible to us. We can work towards them. We can develop them very intentionally. It's not that we don't need God for them, but we just see them as very different. So the cardinal virtues are prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance.
Brandy Vencel:And I saw that you put definitions in here, and I really liked your definitions. I don't know where you got them.
Adrienne Freas:I just got them online.
Brandy Vencel:They're great. I mean, it's just it's hard to find concise definitions of these of these virtues. So I'm gonna read what you wrote. So Prudence helps you judge what is right and choose the best way to do it in every situation. And I have a ton of notes on that, so I'm not gonna
Adrienne Freas:We'll get into that.
Brandy Vencel:Yeah. We'll get into it.
Adrienne Freas:We will. We'll get into it. Because I know you have a lot of really good things to say about it.
Brandy Vencel:I just I really have fallen in love with Prudence. I
Adrienne Freas:Me too.
Brandy Vencel:This summer, I have spent so much time reading about it, and it's I think I always valued it, but I didn't always realize that that was what I was valuing when I saw something in someone that I really admired or when I experienced something that I thought was really wise. Didn't really have the vocabulary to describe what I was seeing.
Adrienne Freas:That's why we're going to unpack this today. That's because it's important.
Brandy Vencel:See how distracted I get? So, justice, it's really giving giving to others what is due, to others, to situations even. But it's the idea that we that we owe an amount of fairness or that there's a right way to treat people. There's there's a a behavior that we owe to them that we give to them. Fortitude, it we often call it courage. it's probably kind of a paired downward compared to fortitude, but there's definitely this sense of strength both in your mind and possibly in your body to face fear or pain, difficulty. I I mean, in many ways, I think it's connected to the the willingness to suffer. Right? Mhmm. So suffer for the sake of what is good, not just to suffer for whatever reason, but to actually suffer for the good.
Brandy Vencel:And then there's temperance, which I think is really what we're getting at when we talk about this concept of ordo amoris and ordering the affections. So I know that temperance comes out in the physical life, and we often think of ordo amoris as, like, intangible things. Right? It's our loves. It's the word.
Brandy Vencel:But I think it comes out. The ordering of our affection comes out through our body. And so this is where we get the idea of self control and moderation, using things the way that we're meant to use things. So we think often, right, of, like, food and drink.
Brandy Vencel:So not overeating, not becoming drunk. Food's not bad. Wine's not bad, but drunkenness is bad, and gluttony is bad. And so, like, all of those conversations that we have, for example, with little children who have to learn to control their appetites or whatever, really what we're talking about with them is temperance. We rarely use the word.
Brandy Vencel:I thought temperance was like the prohibition movement before I got into the Virtue. That's right. The temperate society wants you to think wine is bad. So I was so confused about the word at first. That's cute.
Adrienne Freas:So tell tell me why prudence has really struck you and why it matters and and why you're doing a conference on it.
Brandy Vencel:Sure. Well, we're we're gonna be doing a five year series. There's gonna be we're one on each of the four cardinal virtues, and then we'll do a final one that's on the theological virtues that's on faith, hope, and love. And so that's kind of our five year plan. So this is the first one.
Brandy Vencel:And we're starting with Prudence. Actually, every book I bought that was on all four cardinal virtues starts with Prudence. And I didn't understand when I bought it that there was a very specific reason for that, and that's because traditionally, prudence is seen as the mother of the virtues or the queen of the virtues. And the idea is that you can't really have any of the other virtues, any of the other cardinal virtues without prudence. Because prudence is like this governing factor.
Adrienne Freas:Yeah. So it's kind of like addition, subtraction, multiplication. You can't do any math without addition for this.
Brandy Vencel:Without addition. Yeah. It's so true.
Adrienne Freas:It's a silly way to put it, but that's what came to mind. Yeah.
Brandy Vencel:I mean, that makes sense. I really like that.
Adrienne Freas:It's the foundation of all of it. Mhmm.
Brandy Vencel:So it's like, Prudence is going to guide your justice. It's gonna guide your fortitude or your temperance. So sure, prudence is its own thing, but at the same time, it's kinda got its fingers in every pie. Right? And so if we want to do justice with wisdom or fortitude with wisdom, then we're gonna need prudence.
Brandy Vencel:So we're starting with prudence because it's like, prudence is the foundation that then we're gonna assume when we talk start talking about the other virtues, prudence is kinda gonna be assumed as like, you have to have this to start.
Adrienne Freas:So what what what about Prudence got you you you got into some really deep ideas with Prudence. I know you did.
Adrienne Freas:And so you dove into Charlotte Mason, you dove into Aristotle and some other really great authors. I think you said Peeper was one of them. Mhmm. So tell us what you noticed about the their differences and their similarities in the way they defined Prudence. I really I do think I do think Charlotte Mason's view was a little bit smaller than, say, Pieper or Aquinas. I mean, really, Pieper in in many ways is just reiterating and developing what Aquinas
Adrienne Freas:Yeah. That's right.
Brandy Vencel:That's exactly right. Yeah.
Brandy Vencel:And, I mean, sometimes he's easier to understand than a translation of Aquinas, and sometimes I find, like, he's not. So it just kinda depends on what part you're reading from him. I also read, since we're gonna book drop here, I also read father Gregory Pine has a little book on Prudence where he's basically reiterating Aquinas for a layperson, but in completely modern language. So for anyone who wants a a good starting place, I actually think his little book on Prudence, it's an easy read, but it's super good. And I don't think he's compromising on anything by putting it into more accessible language.
Brandy Vencel:But I'm actually gonna have my high school student read it this year. So Oh, lovely. I think it's I think it's a great little book. So the reason why I say that I think Charlotte Mason pared it down a little bit is just because she's focusing on the physical. So she doesn't give it its own chapter.
Brandy Vencel:Instead, she says it's part of the house of body. So when she's talking about controlling her and it is true. Like, Prudence is very much concerned with the ability to not just make right decisions, but to actually act upon those right decisions in real life. So it is very physical.
Adrienne Freas:Explain to our listeners what House of Body is, and that's from her book Ourselves. Explain a little bit about what that book is.
Brandy Vencel:So I'm actually going to pull up the table of contents, because I find ourselves difficult to explain to people who
Adrienne Freas:haven't It's read a beautiful Ourselves is actually my favorite book by her.
Brandy Vencel:It's so good.
Adrienne Freas:It really so beautiful. And then she's got House of the Man Soul. Yeah. And all of Mhmm. It's an allegory, really, I guess.
Brandy Vencel:It is an allegory. And I was talking with a friend who is convinced that she was influenced by Aquinas in putting this book together. But this really is her work of, I would say, like, moral philosophy and self knowledge. She was Charlotte Mason was looking for a book that could be read with teenagers, and she couldn't find one. She wrote one, and we're all really glad she couldn't find one because it is an excellent book.
Brandy Vencel:So there's two books inside of the one volume if you buy a one volume set. And so the first one is intended for younger teens. And so that is, like, probably ages, like, 13 to 15, 13 to 16. And then the second one is for older teens. So she's it's actually in the second one that she goes through.
Brandy Vencel:So the first one, she's kinda setting this foundation of self knowledge, and she talks about the house of body where she talks she does talk about temperance. So she's talking about things like hunger and thirst, chastity, like your different appetites that you have and learning to control them. Then she talks about the mind, and it's the same kind of thing. Learning to control your thoughts, recognizing that you have a responsibility to control your thoughts, and then House of Heart, your emotions. Right?
Brandy Vencel:Learning to control your emotions. And that's really the whole first book. So then the
Adrienne Freas:She second one uses the framework. She uses the British Parliament as a framework for, like, describing all the different parts of the body and the mind and the soul. And she walks through the, you know, the chancellor and the different roles within the government. So that's where that kind of house system comes in where she calls house of body.
Adrienne Freas:And so anyhow, so it's a beautiful allegory. I love it so much. But, yeah, keep going about about where you were heading with that.
Brandy Vencel:So then the second book, she's divided basically into three parts. Part one's the conscience, part two is the will, and part three is the soul. And so within the conscience, she's talking about what rules the conscience, what gives the conscience its orders. And so this is why I'm saying, I I I do think that she's absolutely right. I just think there there are a few things that are are not there with her, but also she was writing to teenagers.
Brandy Vencel:Right? She didn't intend for this to be the last word on self knowledge or any of these things. So so within the context of conscience, the rulers the rulings of conscience, she's specifically focusing on the house of the body. So how is the conscience making these edicts regarding how we will govern ourselves inside of our bodies? And her last chapter on that is in on prudence.
Brandy Vencel:So within that context, you know, she starts to I mean, it's great because she confronts teenagers where they're at, and she starts right off with imprudence is being selfish. Mhmm. And so I just feel like it's so great to read with with kids. I mean, it just really is. And it's it's way easier than you confronting it with children.
Brandy Vencel:Mhmm. Mhmm. Really getting them to think through what it means to be prudent. So I I think she does a great I think she does a great job. I just think there are probably a few things that could be added.
Brandy Vencel:Mhmm. But I never wanna say I would not say there's anything that's inaccurate.
Adrienne Freas:Right. Well, one of the things that I was struck with was you mentioned I believe you mentioned it in the newsletter about how she focused so much on the Prudence being tied to the body, to our physical body. I got really struck with the fact. So I had years ago, I pulled this up because it reminded me of this. So Gary Hartenberg is he is a professor at Houston Baptist University.
Adrienne Freas:It's Houston Christian University now down in Houston. Anyhow, Gary Hartenberg is a wonderful professor and I think he's the head of the Honors Department. He knows Lou Marcos. Doctor. Marcos is also down at that university.
Adrienne Freas:And I had Gary Hertenberg on to talk about his book, Education for Virtue and Leisure. And so when I was thinking about Prudence, I was thinking about what he talks about in here is he uses this word over and over, phronesis, which I had actually never heard of before. So but phronesis in Latin is prudentia. And so it's tied to prudence. Right?
Adrienne Freas:And so what he says, what Gary Hartenberg and I'm bringing this up because it makes a really interesting point that I think Charlotte Mason was really she actually clearly read Aristotle very well. Yeah. So what he unpacks in this book about Phronesis is he's and I'm gonna kind of read a few quotes and some thoughts from it. He says the, it's the ability to discern the appropriate course of action to be taken in every any given situation at the appropriate time with consideration of potential consequences. Hartenberg clarifies that can only be obtained through experience and age.
Adrienne Freas:In order for phronesis to develop, you must have a lot of experience and learning through doing. All virtues are obtained through action. That's very Aristotelian. Hartenberg actually emphasizes that the Aristotelian method of virtue formation comes through opportunities to experience and do. And then he clarifies that virtues are learned by doing, and he distinguishes these distinctly different from intellectual learning.
Adrienne Freas:Hartenberg says, we should not overlook the way in which Aristotle thinks we learn to develop the virtue of character. He thinks there is a difference between learning that requires intelligence versus physical. The body, right? He explains that virtues of character are the sort of intelligibility that is connected to things that we can see, hear or otherwise sense. And that's the body.
Adrienne Freas:So it's like, you know, actually, the fact that Charlotte Mason focused Prudence on the body tells me she really actually read and understood Aristotle. So that was something that really struck me on that. But so I think that she was right to tie it to the body. For sure. And to really emphasize that, I guess.
Brandy Vencel:Yes. I think it's I think we're very tempted just in the way that our culture thinks now to kind of well, we kind of, like, relegate prudence to just being cautious. Mhmm. And then we use the word wisdom, but we mean kind of this nebulous intangible thing. And there seems to be a disconnect between being wise, like you can sound smart when you talk or maybe give good advice, or and then walking with the wise by actually being wise in your body as far as how you conduct yourself.
Brandy Vencel:I feel like there's this real disconnect in all these different parts. So what I appreciate about both Charlotte Mason and what you read is it's kinda bringing it back together. Because I just know with my reading on Prudence, I just keep coming back to, gosh, it's so much bigger. It's so much bigger than I realized. It's so much all in so much more all encompassing.
Brandy Vencel:So Aquinas actually takes he takes Prudence and he divides it into parts, which is I mean, he's so medieval, right, in doing this just because of the way they loved to delineate and categorize, and you can, like, turn everything into a nice little chart. Mhmm. When you're reading the medievals, it always makes me laugh. But he I really loved the way he talked about the, like, the very beginning. So there's basically three steps of prudence.
Brandy Vencel:So you have to have all of them to be prudent. So the first part is I think the part where we get this idea of wisdom of it being a form of wisdom, which it is a form of wisdom. But it's like, basically, you're coming to an understanding of reality regarding whatever it is you're making a decision about. Mhmm. And mean, a decision is you're making a judgment call about how you should act in real life.
Brandy Vencel:So there's this whole, like, background thing that it that is very much in your mind, but then there's the moment of decision where you've made a decision, and then there's commanding where you tell yourself to do it, to live in alignment with the with the judgment that you made. And so I think this is why they often like Aquinas would say things like, Prudence is really for rulers, because you have to have all of this in order to be able to command men well. But then people like Charlotte Mason say, well, you know, we all have to have, for example, self rule. Mhmm. And then eventually, all of us, usually, at some point in our lives, end up commanding somebody, whether it's you have children and you're in charge of them or whether you have employees.
Brandy Vencel:Like, it's not the same as being a king, but prudence is really for all of us because all of us have some sort of authority that we're gonna have to Right. Exercise at some point.
Adrienne Freas:Yeah. That's a good point.
Brandy Vencel:I just really it's been so remarkable to go through all the little things that Aquinas said and put them together. So I feel like a lot of what you were reading is one of those parts because he's talking about memory, and that really is the idea of learning from experience. And when we think about, like, little kids can seem remarkably insightful, but then we get frustrated and we say things like, well, teenagers do dumb things. You know? We're so we're so irritated with them.
Brandy Vencel:But it's like, literally, they have no experience to draw on. And that is the number one thing that Aquinas points to as he starts to go through the pieces. The first thing is that you have to have a knowledge of past things. You have to have and he and he means it very literally. Like, you had this encounter with this person, and you figured out that some people are this way or whatever it is.
Brandy Vencel:Right? And it's like they they don't know that. They may have no experience at all Right. You know, with a situation like that.
Adrienne Freas:Well, yeah. And that's one of the reasons why Charlotte Mason says it's important that we're reading a lot of books to the kids because they they get an experience with it through the imagination. Right? Through empathy, if you will, even that empathetic experience. In fact, I'm going to read this one quote from her Volume Four, which is Ourselves, and it's Chapter Two, The Instruction of Conscience.
Adrienne Freas:She says, The instructed conscience knows that temperance, chastity, fortitude and prudence must rule in the house of body. But how is the conscience to become instructed? Life brings us many lessons. That's phronesis, right? When we see others do well, conscience approves and learns.
Adrienne Freas:When we see others do ill, conscience condemns. That's why we read fairy tales. Yep. But we want a wider range of knowledge than the life about us affords, and books are our best teachers. So you can get those experiences.
Adrienne Freas:I don't want to say virtually, but emotionally, right? Through relating with the characters in the stories on all fronts, not just the villains, but the good people. And I think that's really important. And my goodness, that's one of the reasons why we say we want to educate children with good living books, because it's going to actually affect their conscience, which is going to help develop the virtues, right? And it's going to help them not to want to let their vices grow because they're going to see those vices in the stories and not want to be that way.
Adrienne Freas:Right? Anyhow, I I wanna share a little bit too just one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk about Prudence with you today. And I I will I want you to share more too because I know that you have more to say about Prudence and especially how it's preparing for this conference is affecting you personally. I'm sure that there are things in your life that are changing because of it. Mhmm.
Adrienne Freas:I anytime we I prepare for a conference, I always feel like it's for me because I need this conference. Yes. It's so true. So but for me, what happened, and I'll just share, it was a few years ago, I realized that my I was actually, what was happening was I was kind of angry at my husband, and I was, you know, realizing I focus a lot on his vices, and we all do that when we're married. You know, I know all my spouse's vices really well.
Adrienne Freas:I probably know his vices better than he knows them, and he probably knows my vices better than. And we focus on those vices, which can bring a lot of division into the marriage and cause, you know, really bad issues with marriage and relationships in the home life. But I realized, wow, I wonder what my husband's number one virtue is. So I thought, I'm going to flip this. I'm going start thinking about what his virtues are and try to be thankful for him and thinking about his virtues.
Adrienne Freas:And it didn't take me long to realize he has prudence. That's his that's his virtue is prudence. I'm not gonna share what his vices are, but prudence is his first virtue. And I I thought to myself, oh my goodness. And not only is it his virtue, but it's the one area that I hated about him that I would argue about.
Adrienne Freas:So, like, whenever he was using prudence to make a decision, and I thought that's a really bad decision. We need to do this now. No. He was actually being prudent and holding us back from making a decision too quickly. But I'm also thinking through prudence and thinking about how prudence, not only does it help you well, a lot of prudence is help is with planning.
Adrienne Freas:Right? Mhmm. So we're gonna get into planning because that's a really big one for teachers and homeschool moms and parents. Planning is huge. And so when you think about prudence as as a virtue that helps us to do plan well, It helps you to not only hold back on things, but also helps you to move forward on things.
Adrienne Freas:So I want you to talk about that a little bit because I know that's something you've discovered.
Brandy Vencel:Well, was something I noticed in my reading was that there was this there was a definite emphasis on slowness, not being rash, but then there was also a quickness, and I had trouble reconciling those two for a while because I just what do you mean that it's both fast and it's slow? How could that even be possible? And what I realized I mean, there is an aspect where Aquinas talks about something he calls keenness, and that does seem to be some sort of almost inborn facility. I don't wanna say that we can't develop it, but it's almost like this quick insight where you can kinda pierce through and see what what the problem actually is. Right?
Brandy Vencel:Because, like, if you're involved in some sort of drama like, let's say you're administering a school and some some situation blew up in your face, and all the stuff starts coming at you, this parent, that teacher, this child, whatever, it really quickly, you can get lost in the shuffle of that. And the keenness is this ability to kinda, like, really quickly see through all of it. And, I mean, his his definition is basically, like, you can quickly identify the middle term of syllogism.
Adrienne Freas:This is totally the gift my husband has.
Brandy Vencel:Totally. So it's just it's a really it's like, I had to I had to really think about, what does he mean you could quickly identify the term? And I realized it's like, he's getting it. I you figure out what the problem really is and not all the stuff that everybody thinks
Adrienne Freas:is That's exactly what my husband can do.
Brandy Vencel:Which is awesome. It's amazing. So there is that, but there's this whole decision making process where it like, I'm looking at my notes right now, and it's talking about, like, are you teachable? And are so are you going to others for advice? And are you looking at books for advice?
Brandy Vencel:And then, like, circumspection, are you really thinking through the circumstances that you're actually in and how people are really gonna react and the effect this is gonna have on your community. And there's just so much, and that's the slow part. Right? You're trying to make a good judgment, which means there's this whole evidence gathering thing that has to happen first. And the more convoluted everything is, the harder it is to sort through all of that and make sure you've gathered your evidence.
Brandy Vencel:So then I so then the fast part is actually once you know and once you've made a judgment call, you are quick to live it out. You are quick to take action on it. And so that's where the fast and
Adrienne Freas:slow You just described to my husband all of it. All of it. He's so busy. Mean, you know, until I realized that that was his gift, I didn't appreciate it.
Intro.:Mhmm.
Adrienne Freas:And I'm so thankful. Like, I would tell every woman listening to this show and every man, actually, think about your spouse not in the whenever you're angry and their devices are showing, step back and think what's the what's her or his virtue? Because it has really been a game changer for the way I respond to him. It's been huge.
Brandy Vencel:I love that.
Adrienne Freas:It's huge. And I've been for like three years and I'm so thankful. But you know, took being married, we've been married thirty four years. It took being married thirty one years for me to finally realize that I had a prudent husband.
Brandy Vencel:Better late than never.
Adrienne Freas:So but, yeah, it's so beautiful. So tell me how how does this affect you as a homeschool mom? What what what are you challenged to maybe work on with your coming to a greater and deeper awareness of Prudence?
Brandy Vencel:Well, I really I mean, I would say a bit okay. Actually, let me back up. So as Aquinas was breaking all of this down into all these different pieces, one thing that I realized was, well, this is actually really helpful because if I say, oh, I want to be more prudent. I aspire to be prudent. And then so then my goal is gonna be to be more prudent.
Brandy Vencel:That is so nebulous, and it's such a big thing that that that there's no real, like, path forward other than that maybe by having that at the forefront of your mind, you'll do a couple things differently. But when I really started getting into the details of all these different ways that he breaks it down, well, then it's really easy to troubleshoot and see, oh, my real weakness is this over here and this over here. And, like, I'm actually good on these certain things, but I'm not good on this. And so for me, it was really great. And we also were in the midst of some pretty big decision making things over the last year, I would well, ever since we moved to Texas two years ago, really.
Brandy Vencel:I just feel like it's been one big life thing after another. So then I mean, I almost I don't wanna say used it as a checklist because that sounds took almost sounds like minimizing it to me, but kind of, you know, do we really cover our bases? I can go through this and say, well, memory, did we did we think back to past experiences and actually learn from those and apply them here? You know, docility, did we actually ask wise people for advice, people that we know and have answers for a specific situation like this? You know?
Brandy Vencel:And and so going through it, it really helped me see, I would say, our weaknesses in our process as a family, but then also my personal weaknesses in there. And so, like, a big one for me is I just decided I really want to focus in the next couple of years of coming to a better understanding of human nature. Because I think that I am off sometimes in in a variety of different ways. Like, sometimes it's too optimistic, and sometimes it's too pessimistic. And and I do think that that impairs my ability to be truly wise in this situation.
Brandy Vencel:But it was only in reading Aquinas that I realized that that was even part of Prudence. Like, I don't really think about it. When when he starts talking about, you need to have a firm grasp of reality, basically. You need to really understand the way the world works and the way man works in the world, and I just realized, oh, I'm making these broad assumptions about man, but what I really need to do is spend some time thinking about what it really means. Like, how, for example, do we balance the idea that man's a fallen sinner with the fact that he maintains the image of God.
Brandy Vencel:Right? And so so going one way or the other is too optimistic or too pessimistic, and somewhere in the middle is the way we have to walk in order to walk wisely among men. So I think for me, that's sort of a big thing.
Adrienne Freas:Yeah. That's a really good point. I love that. I'm excited about your conference. I want you to share a little bit with our listeners of what what is it well, we can put in the show notes links to your conference.
Adrienne Freas:It's a it's a online retreat. So kind of explain what what your guys are gonna be doing, who the speakers are, the topics, and what you're hoping that the people who attend the conference will take away from it.
Brandy Vencel:Okay. So this conference is with Scully Sisters, which is a company that I co own with Misty Winkler and Abby Abby Wall, and we I mean, we have lots of different kinds of people, but we really see our primary job as helping to do basically continuing education for homeschool moms who are trying to give their children a classical education. And then coupled with that is we want these moms who are kind of, like I don't know. I don't wanna say, like, in our inner circle, but we have a network, and there are moms who are really involved in this in this online network. But we really wanna see them build strong local communities in real life even with people who maybe don't know what classical education even is.
Brandy Vencel:Because that's the world they have to actually live in with their physical bodies. Right? Mhmm. And so these retreats were born out of a desire to try to connect those two things. And, you know, we had talked about doing something like a big conference where people could come or whatever, and we just decided really what we want.
Brandy Vencel:If we really want the local community to be more cohesive and just really start growing together in their understanding of homeschooling and education and the world around them, then what we would do is something that supported the local community. So what we incur I mean, that you can buy an individual registration and attend live, and we even have Zoom breakout sessions so that people can go in and try to discuss in those virtual rooms.
Adrienne Freas:So this is going to be all virtual,
Brandy Vencel:the whole conference. It's all virtual. So if if they attend live on that day and don't buy a replays, they really can have even an in person Zoom conversation with other people who are attending at the same time as them. But what we really encourage is people to host a local group where we give them the discussion questions and they have a chance in between sessions to have these long deep discussions with the people that they actually live nearby. That's our role.
Adrienne Freas:That's a real it's beautiful. I love that. That's great.
Brandy Vencel:Yeah. And so the way we've designed the whole conference is that we we realized if we if we do the sessions more so, I mean, we're speaking, but if we do the sessions more like a back and forth conversation between the three of us, by the time we're done with the session, people are like, they have things they wanna say because this made them think of the end. So it very easily leads into the discussion in real life in the local group. And so we have just found, like, that has just really been a game changer as far as helping these local groups start to learn and grow together. So we've seen people, you know, be able to start like mom's book clubs where they really start studying some educational philosophy and all that kind of stuff out of these retreats.
Brandy Vencel:So we're really excited
Adrienne Freas:That's good.
Brandy Vencel:All of that.
Adrienne Freas:I have a question. I have a lot of teachers, classroom teachers who listen to to this podcast.
Brandy Vencel:Do you
Adrienne Freas:think that this would be appropriate for classroom teachers as well? Know that your core audience is homeschool, but do you feel like I mean, like the teachers in California at your school, would they be attending?
Brandy Vencel:Is it something they would benefit from? I think that especially this series with the Virtues, I think would be excellent. I the previous ones we've done, a number of them are things that I think in many ways, teachers don't always get to decide. Mhmm. Because when we were talking about things like I mean, yes, teachers have to manage their time.
Brandy Vencel:But, you know, when we get into, like, the nitty gritty details of planning a schedule, well, lots of times, the school has a schedule and the teachers stay on it. Right? You know, that kind of thing. But with this, I just keep coming back to this idea that, you know, for years, I've heard it thrown around that, you know, like, virtue is the goal of a classical education or at least one of the goals
Adrienne Freas:of a classical education.
Brandy Vencel:And realizing none of us I shouldn't say none of us. Very few of us even know the names of the virtues.
Adrienne Freas:Right.
Brandy Vencel:Right. And yet we're saying that's the goal. Yep. Yep. And I I just started reading Alistair MacIntyre's After Virtue.
Adrienne Freas:Oh, that's a great book.
Brandy Vencel:And I started reading it because a friend who was reading it and was much further along in the book sent me a quote where basically, he was saying the enlightenment flattened virtues into virtue and turned it into stoicism, and my whole mind exploded. Because I just thought, even when we say virtue is the goal, we're actually kind of flattening it. Because it's actually the virtues or being a virtuous person, which would be a person who has all the virtues, not just one. So again, we like, it's kind of how prudence can be kind of nebulous if you back up too far away and don't look at the parts. Virtue, I mean Same.
Brandy Vencel:How much more nebulous can you get than just this undefined idea of I don't know. I guess we want them to be good people, but we don't really know what that means in our culture anymore. So for me, it's like, this even makes the goal possible in the sense not that it does everything, but in the sense that how can I become the virtuous leader my children need me to be when I'm teaching them? And how can they become more virtuous if none of us know what Virtue is? Right.
Adrienne Freas:Right.
Brandy Vencel:And so, really, I feel like this series it's kind of funny because I'm thinking, why didn't we think of this earlier? But we just did it. It just wasn't Yeah. You know, we didn't think to ask the question. It was actually in reading Charlotte Mason.
Brandy Vencel:I and I can't remember the quote. I've tried to look it up, and I can't remember what book I was in when I was reading it, but she starts talking about it, and it seems very obvious that she's basically you don't buy a Virtue curriculum. You, as a parent, need to have these large ideas about Virtue so that you can train your children. So you might coach them. You might put them in certain situations where you think it's gonna develop things in them.
Brandy Vencel:But, you know, like, you need to know. And I just thought, I don't know. I I I you know, I've been I've been homeschooling my children for twenty years, and in many ways, most of the time, I didn't really know what Virtue was. And that's
Adrienne Freas:a little scary. Yeah.
Brandy Vencel:Right? They think it'd be okay.
Adrienne Freas:I'm sure that a lot of it was happening organically and naturally without you being aware.
Brandy Vencel:But I definitely think it was. But
Adrienne Freas:For sure. But so what do you what do you you know, Skolet sisters, what does your team hope will be some big takeaways for the application for the parent the teachers and the homeschool moms?
Brandy Vencel:I think in many ways, a lot of the moms that are signing up actually have these pieces, but haven't put them together in a cohesive whole that will help them both improve themselves as virtuous persons, but then also communicating to their children. Kind of like how I was saying, you know, with my with the family decision making processes where I kind of almost ended up with a mental checkbox of what am I neglecting. I feel like we can do that with our own children. What where are their weaknesses? You know, I I can't necessarily make up for whether or not they have life experience, but maybe I should choose a novel that will give them some wisdom in this one area where they seem like they really are lacking.
Brandy Vencel:And it's I don't mean, like, preaching at them or moralizing the book, but I mean more just to the exposure to a story line that kinda gets them to think through some of the things maybe that they struggle with in their life. Or maybe, you know, I'm thinking maybe I'm going to add well, here's a good example, and actually, it's probably what I'm gonna use at the retreat. But we talk about children's temperaments, and we talk about well, for us, we were talking about self defense. This was a number of years ago, but there had been, like, two or three attempted kidnappings at the school in our neigh neighborhood. And I'm trying not to be this overbearing mother, but at the same time, I have two young I have two teenage girls that are, you know, ready to, for example, ride their bike to their grandma's house that's two miles away, and seems like it should be no big deal except they have to go right by that school where there's been these problems.
Brandy Vencel:And I'm trying to figure out how to navigate this and realizing that one of my children would have a very hard time with self defense. Right? And it was in, you know, seeing that, like, what does it look like to be able to defend yourself that I ended up putting her in karate? Because I just realized I can't have the first time she defends herself be in a situation. For her, it's it it would be too much.
Brandy Vencel:Like, she would she would feel bad. She's very tenderhearted, and she just would feel bad defending herself against someone who's truly being aggressive. And so, anyway, I just I think of those kinds of things. You know, Prudence in many ways is a fortune teller. Right?
Brandy Vencel:She can see around corners. She can anticipate the the things that are gonna be obstacles or the things that might happen that are in many ways bad. You know? I mean, and it's everything from realizing that you're running out of flour, maybe you should go to the store. Right?
Brandy Vencel:Like Mhmm. To something big, like, hey, there's a kidnapper. Maybe I should make sure my children are equipped in how to handle that. Sure. Yeah.
Brandy Vencel:And so I I feel like if someone coming to this conference, it could be different for every single person. That was another thing that really struck me was that when you really get into Prudence, then it becomes walking in wisdom, which doesn't mean there's not a right answer in a specific situation, but it does mean it's always gonna look different for each person because of, basically, the aspect of circumstantion circumspection. You're not always in the same circumstances. And so it it there is a sense in which Prudence is very customized to, you know, the immediate situation that you are in. And so, yes, there's always a way to be just and courageous and all of those things, but it's gonna look different between you and me because I live where I live and then the community I've been and you live where you are.
Brandy Vencel:It's just different. Right? So I think that I mean, that's what's going to make the discussion really fun, is just because you have all these different people who are going to try to apply these virtues to the situations that they're actually living in.
Intro.:Mhmm.
Adrienne Freas:Well, I know you're very you're a very practical person, and you're gonna drive it home to where the people who attend are gonna have some very practical application Mhmm. Moments to figure out how Yes. I think this is gonna be great for classroom teachers. I I'm gonna encourage all my listeners to consider attending because, again, like you said, all these schools and they think that Virtue training is just let's have a Virtue of the month, and we're gonna you know? Right.
Adrienne Freas:It's so much more than that. And I think that if the t if teachers would, you know, attend a conference like this and really get a deep understanding, because you're gonna go dive, you're gonna do a deep dive.
Brandy Vencel:We are. Yeah. And I do really think I can envision this being good for a staff training date, like, altogether, where you get to have the discussion with other People
Brandy Vencel:Because, again, I feel like the dis I mean, yes, we're trying to give you know, like, there for example, I took what I thought were the most important parts of prudence that Aquinas covers for people who are not kings and mayors, but for the regular people, and turned it into a chart that we're gonna be giving everybody that they can print and have and all of that. And but I'm thinking, like so those kinds of things are really helpful, But I always feel like I get so much out of the discussion between the three of us. And when people get back to us, it's like, the conference was great, but what this one person said across the table for me, that was what changed my life. So I feel like if they could do it as a staff, it might really be for a girl, might really be formative.
Adrienne Freas:What are what are the dates for the conference? And then also, like, where I I will get the link in the show notes. Is it just a one day? Is it a Saturday?
Brandy Vencel:Or It's a one day. It's a all it's most of the day on a Saturday. And definitely, if you're gonna host a group, you're gonna have to figure out things like what are you gonna do for lunch or dinner depending on what time zone you're in. But it's on let me double check the just to make sure. Yeah.
Brandy Vencel:It's on October 10.
Adrienne Freas:If a school wasn't able to attend live on a Saturday, they could get the recording later and they could stop it and have the okay.
Brandy Vencel:Mhmm. Yeah. They could even break it up into smaller sessions if they needed to do it over a number of different, you know, staff training days
Adrienne Freas:or Okay. Something like
Brandy Vencel:Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the main I think the main benefit of attending live is if you don't have a group, then you get those Zoom rooms so that you get the discussion. So if you're doing it, you know, with staff training, you don't really
Adrienne Freas:That makes sense. And what are the dates again? Do you have it?
Brandy Vencel:October 10. Saturday, October 10.
Adrienne Freas:Okay. Perfect. I will have that in the show notes. Also, your other business afterthought. So I'll have that in the show notes so people can sign up for your newsletter.
Adrienne Freas:Is there anything else? Oh, your podcast. I will tell that I do want to at least say this. I when I work with schools, and I help a lot of schools, I'm do their curriculum architecting. And I always tell them, you have to listen to the episode history without a center will not hold.
Adrienne Freas:The one that you did the event Mhmm. I'll put a link in the show notes. The one with Angelina Stamper. It's such a great that episode is just brilliant.
Brandy Vencel:It It was so good. I that was one of my favorite, and it really is one of the most listened to. Maybe you're the reason why. That's probably why because I tell people.
Adrienne Freas:That's what I I literally do. I tell people all the time. And when I worked in the University of Dallas, we all all of us on the team listened to do it, and then we they tell schools to listen to it too. So it's
Brandy Vencel:yeah. Aw. Well, registration for the conference is at schoolysisters.com/prudence.
Adrienne Freas:Okay.
Brandy Vencel:And then they can click around and find the podcast from there if they Okay. If someone wants to listen. That is pretty easy. Then my newsletter is the easiest way to get it is just to go to afterthoughtsblog.net and then slash subscribe. And there's a little form.
Intro.:Yeah.
Brandy Vencel:I love it. My almost weekly newsletter because sometimes I don't write it. Right.
Adrienne Freas:Well, I love it because it's short, and it always had you always have some little golden nugget in there of wisdom that speaks to me, and I so I appreciate it.
Brandy Vencel:Aw. Well, thank you. I I will admit, sometimes I don't write it because I don't feel like I have anything really valuable to say, and I don't believe in wasting time. So
Adrienne Freas:Yeah. I agree. I'm like that too. I haven't written a newsletter in a while. Need I owe my people something.
Adrienne Freas:I just I'm I've been so busy with moving.
Brandy Vencel:Well, yeah. That's a big deal.
Adrienne Freas:But okay, we always end our episode asking, what's a quote from a book that has had a huge impact on you or a book that you wish you had read sooner in your life?
Brandy Vencel:I'll do the book I wish I would read sooner because I say this to people all of the time. I mean, it's a mothering book. It's called The Happy Dinner Table by Anna Mignon. But Never heard of it. We it's she's a charlotte she was involved with a Charlotte Mason School in Texas, but also she married someone from France.
Brandy Vencel:And so it's this interesting combination of her observing how the French handle mealtime with their children, with the idea of, like, Charlotte Mason habit training. And we had kids with food allergies, and we used to have drama at the dinner table when my kids were little. And I I mean, eventually, we just kinda got through it, but I never felt like I had really great guidance. And when I read this book, they were the problems were basically in the rearview mirror at the time. But I just I read the book and I thought, oh my goodness.
Brandy Vencel:We would have so much better memories of of dinnertime if I had read this. I mean, the book didn't exist, but if it had existed and I had read it when they were little because I just really didn't know how to navigate it. But I actually when when people come to me and they say they don't really understand Charlotte Mason habit training, even though it's very dinnertime specific, I often have them like, we've had the teachers at the school read this book in the past because it's something about getting out of one context and applying all of her principles to another context that I feel like really helps Oh, wow. Open up the mind to understanding how these kind of are universally applicable in your dealings with children. And so I really think that book can be a game changer if someone's struggling with, like, what does habit training actually look like boots on the ground?
Brandy Vencel:And we're too caught up in, you know, this week's habit class is this. You know? Right. And so and she just kinda really she kinda really blew my mind. And I really think she can bring a lot of peace to more than just mealtime if you really take to heart what she's saying.
Brandy Vencel:So it's a Oh, great little
Adrienne Freas:I can't wait to get it. Thank you for sharing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight and such a blessing to finally get you on.
Brandy Vencel:Yeah. Was so good to talk
Adrienne Freas:to you.
Brandy Vencel:I haven't seen you in a while. So thank you. Honored to be here.
Intro.:Thank you for listening. You can get involved in a few ways. There's a Facebook page where we actively discuss the ideas around classical education. You can find us on Facebook at facebook.com/groups/classicaleducation. And if you want to help offset our production costs, you can support the podcast financially by going to www.classicaleducationpodcast.com/support.
Intro.:As the great artist and educator John Ruskin once said, well, my friends, the final result of the education I want you to give your children will be in a few words this. They will know what it is to see the sky. They will know what it is to breathe it, and they will know best of all what it is to behave under it as in the presence of the Father who is in heaven.