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Welcome to the Revenue Rebels podcast, hosted by Alan Zhao, Co-Founder of Warmly.ai.
We feature B2B SaaS revenue leaders who have challenged traditional methods to achieve remarkable results.
In each episode we cut through the fluff and dive deep into modern tactics used to achieve success: intent-based outreach, social selling, B2B Netflix, video marketing, warm calling, customer led sales, influencer marketing and more.
On the show you can expect episodes with those who create demand - marketing experts, partnerships gurus and social media superstars and those who capture demand - outbound and inbound sales experts, leaders, and practitioners.
Our goal is to shine a light on modern, effective and unique revenue generating methods and equip you with the insights you need to unlock your next strategic advantage.
We're huge proponents of signal-based selling and signal-based, data-driven B2B go-to-market as a whole. Ask us what "Autonomous Revenue Orchestration" means and we'll be more than happy to shine a light on our vision of what the field of B2B revenue will become.
For more content, check out our YouTube page and LinkedIn newsletter!
Brian Lawrence: [00:00:00] Your life's just too short to work with people you don't enjoy, and they're going to be ups and downs, especially in early stage company. And you want to be doing it with people you enjoy and people you trust. And so, um, you know, at the end of the day in sales, Hey, you're responsible for a number. That's what we're judged on, but how you get there, uh, that can vary.
Brian Lawrence: And I think, you know, taking every conversation is an opportunity to learn. And so even if you end up losing a deal. Have you learned something from it, or, you know, you hear something in one conversation with a VP of operations, the next time you talk to a VP of operations, say, Hey, I was just talking to someone else.
Brian Lawrence: And here's what I heard and either they're going to say, yeah, that's true. Or, well, no, I actually think of it a different way, but either way, one, you've built some credibility with that VP of operations and two, you're continuing to learn. And so you're either going to double down on what you knew, or you're going to find a new point to talk about.
Brian Lawrence: Yeah.
Alan Zhao: Welcome to the Revenue Rebels podcast brought to you by Warmly. On this show, we cut straight through the [00:01:00] fluff and dive deep into the specific tactics that B2B revenue leaders across sales and marketing are using to find success in today's environment. I'm your host, Alan Zhao. All right, really exciting.
Alan Zhao: Today on the show, we have Brian Lawrence. Brian's the VP of sales at Clouzard, which helps B2B SaaS companies launch and manage their cloud marketplace offerings. Part of that, he was VP of sales at Airslate and HelloSign. He's had a very particular style of building and scaling successful sales teams for unicorn companies has to do with leading with empathy.
Alan Zhao: So today we're going to talk about how you can infuse empathy into your sales process to achieve remarkable results. One particular example that comes to mind that will go through was how empathizing with customers paved the way for a new go to market motion that helped grow revenue from 2 million in ARR.
Alan Zhao: with a sales led sales motion to 30 million ARR by transitioning to a product and content led sales motion. Brian, it's great to have you on the show today. Alan, good to talk to you. Thanks so much for having me. So why don't we jump into a quick one minute background about yourself and how [00:02:00] you got to where you are today?
Brian Lawrence: Yeah. So, you know, I started my, my software career as an SDR at Oracle, the time, second largest software company in the world. And from there I went to a company called web metrics. I led the sales team there, built the sales organization and just kind of realized that what I love to do in, in life professionally is help build and scale early stage companies.
Brian Lawrence: So, um, had the opportunity to do that at hello sign and air slate and now doing that at Clouzard and having a lot of fun along the way.
Alan Zhao: That's awesome. You've seen companies grow to huge heights. You started small, you scale it all the way up. You've had such an experience here. What's interesting. I was also noticed that out of your MBA program, you did a brief internship in finance, and then you went right back into sales and quick comments about what that was like.
Brian Lawrence: I did. I discovered my competitive advantage in life was not my ability to master spreadsheets. And so, you know, I was, I was there, I was checking out these, all these interesting software companies and it just, it [00:03:00] kind of reinforced to me, Hey, what I love to do is build, not, not analyze. And so went right back into industry and been doing that ever since.
Brian Lawrence: And, and glad I made that decision.
Alan Zhao: Yeah. Double down on the conviction. I also came from finance and I totally get it. Um, so you scale teams to billion dollar unicorns. That's not easy. Why do you think you were so successful in rising through the ranks and getting there to leadership positions and then building this team?
Brian Lawrence: You know, I, I think one of the things first and foremost is I've had some amazing mentors, some people who bet on me, uh, along the way when I was at Oracle, I had six jobs in four years at Oracle. So I was an SDR, SMB, AE, general business, AE, And then I ended up being a manager for each of those three groups.
Brian Lawrence: And so I was one of the, the youngest managers in the world at Oracle. And I had a VP, a woman named Linda Schluter, uh, who she took a chance on me. She mentored me, saw things in me and just encouraged me and helped me. And I I'm just [00:04:00] so grateful for. Those type of people who helped get me where I am. And so I, I try to give back in that same way.
Brian Lawrence: And so, you know, one of the great thrills for me is hiring someone who is an SDR and then seeing them get to move into new roles. And then they become directors and VPs of sales, or they move into customer success and have, you know, lots of, uh, Phenomenal success from there. And so that's one of the things I really try to invest in.
Alan Zhao: It's really cool. You're building your own dynasty. I'm really curious what your manager at the time when you were the youngest promoted manager, what did they say in your performance review? It was like, man, Brian is such a sharp person. He like he prospects. What, what, what was the thing that you think that set you apart from all the other folks who, um, maybe didn't rise to the ranks as quick as you did?
Brian Lawrence: You know, I, I think, um, part of it was, uh, I, I was always just willing to learn. And, you know, I think that, uh, put in the work and learn and just, you know, surrounding myself with great people, not being afraid to ask, Hey, how are you doing that? [00:05:00] What what's leading to that success? And I found people were incredibly generous in sharing things.
Brian Lawrence: And probably enough people didn't approach them and ask for that type of advice. And so I think that gave me an unfair advantage that I was just really I'm willing to put myself out there and ask and learn and then just incorporate that into what I was doing. And, you know, I think those, those same people who I asked those questions, you know, I think that kind of gives them a vested interest as well in your success.
Brian Lawrence: Like they're rooting for you, they, they help you along. And so I think that compounds in multiple ways.
Alan Zhao: And transitioned into your leadership style of being very empathetic and collaborative. Uh, can we talk a little bit more about that and how you infuse, uh, Authenticity and collaboration, uh, and empathy into your leadership style.
Brian Lawrence: Yeah. You know, I, I start with, I tell anyone I hire that, um, my number one rule is my no asshole policy on hiring people. Um, and that, [00:06:00] you know, life's just too short to work with people you don't enjoy. And they're going to be ups and downs, especially in early stage company, and you want to be doing it with people you enjoy and people you trust.
Brian Lawrence: And so, um, you know, at the end of the day in sales, Hey, you're responsible for a number. That's what we're judged on, but how you get there, uh, that can vary. And so I've seen, you know, I think one of the mistakes sometimes people make, especially in early stage, they, they see someone who's put up superstar numbers and they hire that person.
Brian Lawrence: Even though they might be toxic and, you know, so I, uh, someone once asked me, you know, what my view on toxic superstars was. And I said, you know, I think that's a contradiction in terms. If you're toxic, I don't think you can be a superstar, even though you might put up some big numbers, uh, you're going to ruin the team.
Brian Lawrence: And so I want people who I enjoy being around, who the rest of my team enjoys being around. And I think that, you know, every hire that we make, um, especially at the, the. Earlier stage, not just that they're a culture fit, but that there are a culture ad as well, that they [00:07:00] bring something new to the team.
Brian Lawrence: And that's how you build diversity and, and have, uh, multiple selling styles and you learn from each other. And that's the thing I've always tried to build with my sales teams.
Alan Zhao: If you're a fan of the Revenue Rebels podcast, please leave us a review on Spotify and Apple podcast. Your support goes a long way in helping us bring on more amazing guests.
Alan Zhao: Thank you. Yeah. It's just very collaborative culture where you're bringing in new things, very empathetic. And, um, it's different from some of the other sales leaders or some of the leaders I've seen in the space. Normally when I think of VP of sales, I think of like, Someone that's going to rule with fire and brimstone.
Alan Zhao: If you don't retrieve results, it's results, results, results. And then you took a different approach, or at least to me, it's very unique where you're seeing, I'm going to bring in people who may not, you know, on paper, it may not be superstars or they are superstars, or you're focusing on superstars and collaborative, but I'm not going to sacrifice collaboration.
Alan Zhao: I'm going to create this culture. We're going to collaborate. We're all going to win together. And just curious how you're able to cultivate that, especially when there's so many people that you need to hire. And every now [00:08:00] and then there might be like a superstar that slips through the cracks, who's a little bit toxic.
Alan Zhao: So how did you create the culture? What did you do? And why do you think this works?
Brian Lawrence: Yeah. So I think that, you know, the, probably the biggest regrets I, I have, um, is when I've hired someone and had red flags and gone ahead and justified it to myself and said, well, you know, maybe, maybe we, we really need someone.
Brian Lawrence: Let me look past this. And I think every time I've done that, it's come back to bite me. And so, you know, I've learned to really take the time to make sure someone is, is just, you know, It's an outstanding hire. And you know, I want to, uh, hire people who like when we end, uh, an interview when they walk out the door, I'm disappointed because I'm like, no, I, I want them to stay.
Brian Lawrence: That's what I'm looking for. And you know, one of the amazing things is that high performers. Attract other high performers. And so once you get those first few who've joined your team, then they, [00:09:00] they know other high performers and other high performers want to come and be there and they want to compete and collaborate with those same type of people.
Brian Lawrence: And so, you know, I'm in a fortunate position now where when we do hiring, we, we don't post a whole lot. Um, on job boards or use outside recruiters and things like that. It's a lot of it from the network and from myself, from the people on my team. And, you know, we get referrals and that means a lot to me.
Brian Lawrence: And so we're able to vet people and find really high quality people at this point, just because of the network and because of what we've built so far.
Alan Zhao: That's amazing. And you said to yourself, you're one of the fastest promoted managers. You are a high performer. You're able to track high performers. When you move companies, you bring those high performers in with you.
Alan Zhao: And that sort of sets the culture of the place, which is high performance, collaborative, it seems like, and also very empathetic.
Brian Lawrence: Yeah. And I think it's one of the things, you know, People ask me about like when they're interviewing and stuff, and, you know, [00:10:00] interviews are a two way street. Like the company has to sell themselves just as much as candidate does.
Brian Lawrence: And, you know, I think it really fair for a candidate to look in and understand that manager style and look at their track record and understand, Hey, people who've worked for that person before come along to this new company. Are they able to attract and retain people? Or do they look in the tenure of everyone at the company is like, it's all brand new people.
Brian Lawrence: That's a flag.
Alan Zhao: That's a really good point. I got to remember that for some of my questions. If I ever go back to the job market as well, what's the longest tenured person on your team? What are they like? Yeah, it's really good. So coming back into the sales process for a moment, you had a particular example, and I know you have many more, of how you used empathy and customer empathy to drive a change in your sales process that led to remarkable outcomes.
Alan Zhao: I think it was at Hello Sun. Can we talk through that a little bit?
Brian Lawrence: Yeah. So when I joined HelloSign, we, we, there had been a strategy to go after and HelloSign electronic signature company, um, and to go [00:11:00] after insurance agencies, especially smaller ones with the idea that, um, this is a paper intensive area.
Brian Lawrence: Most of these agencies are kind of behind the times and still using paper based processes, and this would be a good target market. And so we had some initial success there. But as we were doing that, we also had this API that we had built and we started noticing that people without a whole lot of effort, we're signing up for this API and they were starting to use it more and more.
Brian Lawrence: And we really had, uh, some, some spirited conversations that hello sign, but we shifted our entire go to market to focus on. Selling this API, um, that people you use to embed within their own applications where they needed e signature and that was really transformational and I think that was a real catalyst in helping us go from, you know, a couple million dollars in revenue to around 30 million, uh, after, uh, when Dropbox bought us, uh, as a company.
Alan Zhao: And [00:12:00] then how did you decide to make that transition?
Brian Lawrence: Yeah, it was a little bit of a combination of, you know, there, there is some gut feel to it as well as some data and analytics behind it. Um, and so we saw enough patterns that we said, you know, I think this is worth investing more in. And from there, one of the things we had to do was change our selling motion because now we're suddenly selling to developers and we're no longer selling to the office manager for an insurance agency.
Brian Lawrence: And so having SDRs pick up the phone and call developers, uh, not very effective. And so we really. We thought our entire sales motion and made it much more around the developer experience and providing them with great documentation, uh, letting them easily use the A. P. I. And start testing, um, and, you know, standing things up like that.
Brian Lawrence: And it changed how we did content. And so, like, the most popular piece of content at hello sign was, uh, [00:13:00] about our own A. P. I. And it was it. 10, 10 mistakes we made with building our API and people, I think that authenticity and that just very tactical, like, Hey, here's what we wish we had known that really resonated with developers.
Brian Lawrence: And so that filled our funnel and we started learning. How to communicate with them, making sure they had what they need. And then we, we would bring in the, the business owner who would be in charge of making the purchasing decision. So we, we had this like multi pronged sales approach and that really changed, um, you know, accelerated how quickly we grew as a company.
Alan Zhao: That's awesome. Yeah, I think it's, it's really cool to be talking to your customers. It's just as cool to be talking to the persona types within your own company because they can answer honestly. Um, we have something similar to ourselves. Like we have Keegan, our head of sales, and he is the rev ops expert so he can speak very intelligently to revenue operations, which is the space that we sell in.
Alan Zhao: And I guess for somebody for you guys, if you're VP of engineering [00:14:00] or CTO or engineers, If it resonates with them, then that's a pretty good sign in, in general, because I know that you've done this in the past and you probably apply customer empathy to every company you've been to. What is some of like the quick tricks that salespeople, sales reps can do to stay abreast on the industry, stay abreast in the trends of the people they're selling into?
Brian Lawrence: Yeah, I think, you know, taking every conversation is an opportunity to learn. And so even if you end up losing a deal. Have you learned something from it, or, you know, you hear something in one conversation with a VP of operations. The next time you talk to a VP of operations, say, Hey, I was just talking to someone else.
Brian Lawrence: And here's what I heard. And either they're going to say, yeah, that's true. Or, well, no, I actually think of it a different way. But either way, one, you've built some credibility with that VP of operations and two, you're continuing to learn. And so you're either going to double down on what you knew, or Or you're going to find a new point to talk about
Alan Zhao: makes a lot of [00:15:00] sense.
Alan Zhao: Um, any other tips or advice on how you could be an expert in a space or industry? I find this stuff fascinating because sales reps, they have to move around a lot. They change companies. What's the fastest playbook to learn the space industry that you need to sell into outside of that?
Brian Lawrence: Yeah, I think one of my biggest pieces of advice is sell something that you're interested in, that you actually understand and want to learn about.
Brian Lawrence: And so, you know, I, I put like on my LinkedIn profile that one of my criteria is that like, Hey, can I explain in a sentence or two what the company does to my mother in law? And making sure I can distill it down. And so for me, like these cloud marketplaces that, you know, close our support. So Azure, what's happening there, I think is so fascinating.
Brian Lawrence: So it's into work. And so, you know, I, I think there's maybe a temptation, certainly, you know, a lot of us in sales have been in a job that we're eager to get out of and things like that. And it's hard to, you know, To see past, but I think if you're able to find things that you're truly interested in and [00:16:00] passionate about that shows, and it's like sale on, like inject some personality, bring that to the sale.
Brian Lawrence: And so the more you can do that, I think the more successful you'll be in the longterm.