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Alternative Wealth is a podcast focused on advanced tax planning & wealth preservation for business owners, entrepreneurs, and high income earners hosted by Ryan Kolden. Weekly guest interviews, plus shorter deep-dive episodes about business planning, tax mitigation strategies, alternative investments, personal finance, and retirement strategies. Covering everything from private equity, venture capital, hedge funds, private credit, & real estate to tax-efficient exits & captive insurance corporations, privatized banking, and different retirement strategies.
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Arn Cenedella:
And I had some money in the market, Black Monday hit, and the market literally dropped 20% in one day. I had an emotional reaction, and I sold. I got afraid. And of course, long term, it would have been better for me to just sit tight and do nothing. Because that stock I sold the day after Black Monday is now probably worth 10 times what I sold it for.
Ryan Kolden: Welcome to Alternative Wealth, where we explore traditional and alternative investing, retirement and personal finance concepts. I'm your host, Ryan Kolden. Join us as we talk about the strategies and tactics that can help you make better financial decisions.
Disclaimer & Discloure: Ryan Kolden is an investment advisor representative of RPG Family Wealth Advisory. Kolden Wealth is a DBA of RPG Family Wealth Advisory. The opinions expressed by the host and or guests in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Kolden Wealth or RPG Family Wealth Advisory. No information on this podcast should be construed as as investment, legal, tax, or financial advice.
Ryan Kolden: Welcome to today's show. Today on the show, I have Arne Senadella. Arne is a real estate broker and investor with over 45 years of experience in the real estate industry. Arne joined Senadella and company with his family's residential and investment brokerage firm located in Menlo Park, California in 1978. Over a 36-year period, Arn had success as a broker in Palo Alto and Menlo Park, and he built a single-family rental portfolio on the San Francisco Peninsula and in Austin, Texas. During this period, Arn helped many investors build their own rental portfolios. Arn moved from his lifelong home in San Carlos, California to Greenville, South Carolina in 2014, where Arn went on to found Spark Investment Group as he transitioned his single-family rental portfolio into multi-family properties. Arn currently manages and operates a multifamily portfolio as general partner and sponsor of over 1,100 units with a total value in excess of $140 million. In addition, Arn is a limited partner in over 500 units in the Southeast and the Mountain West. Arn, great to have you on the show and welcome.
Arn Cenedella: Yeah. Ryan, great to meet you. Appreciate the opportunity to chat with you and your listeners about building wealth and how real estate may fit into that program.
Ryan Kolden: Perfect. So I'm just going to dive into it just so everybody knows. I'm just going to ask Arne about his backstory and then get into his philosophy on wealth building. So Arne, how did you originally get into real estate?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, that's a great question. kind of had a typical middle-class American upbringing. Parents kind of said, you know, do well at school, study hard, go to college, get a good job, and, you know, the rest will be history. And I followed that path, ultimately culminating in a master's degree in physical chemistry from the University of Michigan. At one point, I kind of thought I wanted to teach or perhaps be a research scientist. And about midway through, I kind of decided that really wasn't my passion. And over that time, my father had started a residential real estate brokerage company in Menlo Park. He was an entrepreneur at heart, failed at probably three or four businesses before he connected with real estate and he kind of found his niche. I wanted to return to the Bay Area and the peninsula where I grew up and he said, Arne, come on back out, get your license and I'll put you to work. So there wasn't any kind of grand plan. But March of 78, I got my license and started selling houses in Menlo Park, California, and basically have been in real estate my entire adult life. So there wasn't a grand plan, kind of fell into it, enjoyed it, did well at it, and here I am some four decades later.
Ryan Kolden: One of the things that you said was your father started, I think, three or four businesses before he found one that stuck. One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was, most of your businesses will fail, but keep going until one sticks. At least for those of us that are crazy enough to try to do this. But Arne, how did you become an investor? So you started off as a broker. How did you end up making that transition from broker to investor?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, yeah, great question. And it's interesting because over my long career as a broker, and I still actually have a broker's license, so I don't really practice residential real estate anymore. People might be surprised that realtors, agents, brokers, Not many of them actually invest in real estate. It's kind of an interesting dynamic. They're busy doing sales, making commissions, but they don't kind of see the writing right in front of them. And my father kind of taught me that the real estate brokerage is great to create income. And of course, selling in the San Francisco Bay Area, though when I started, prices weren't quite as high as they are today, but I benefited from that growth. His thought was the brokerage business creates income which is great in and of itself, but then that income creates excess capital above and beyond your living expenses. And so the real key to creating wealth, financial security, financial freedom, however you define it, is using that brokerage income to create excess capital that you then put to work investing in real estate for the long term, which ultimately will provide financial freedom. where the brokerage business is very transactional. You make a sale, you get an income, but that's kind of the end. You got to go make another sale to create additional income. So he invested in single-family homes, and so I kind of modeled his behavior as my brokerage business grew, and I had income that I could invest in. I started buying single-family homes in the San Francisco Bay Area, And again, this was back in the 80s and early 90s where one could actually do that today. You probably can't buy single family homes in the Bay Area for rental. And as that started to happen, I moved into Austin, Texas in the early 2000s. And of course, I think most of your listeners understand kind of what the what an economic diamond, what's the word? How dynamic the Austin real estate market has been and the entire economy. So that proved to be well, and that's how I fell into it. Use the brokerage, create income, excess capital invested in real estate.
Ryan Kolden: And you started off with a single-family portfolio. Why did you start with single-family? Why not multi? Why not industrial? Why not self-storage? What made you pick single-family?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, so a good question. I was a single-family agent, single-family broker. That was kind of the ocean I swam in. As part of my brokerage business, I was looking at single family houses. The single family houses is the market I knew best. And of course, buying a single family home is a little more accessible financially to a young guy who started in a family and just kind of building wealth. So it seemed like a natural progression to me. And one of the reasons I moved to multifamily after 35 years was it was still residential. And so I could use kind of the knowledge and skills about running a single-family rental portfolio was easily transferable to multifamily. It's residential. I'm doing garden-style apartments. The construction is very similar to single-family. The landlord-tenant regulations, the landlord-tenant negotiations, operation repairs is all very similar. So it was an easy transition for me or a relatively straightforward transition to go from single-family to multifamily because it was residential. I don't know office. I don't know industrial. I don't know self-storage. And one thing I would say to your listeners that I'm pretty sure is a good statement is don't invest in stuff you don't understand, right? As an investor, to the degree you understand what you're investing in, that's going to increase your chances of success. I was comfortable in the residential space and didn't really feel any need to go in a different direction.
Ryan Kolden: One of the last pieces you said there is so key is invest in what you understand. The thing that it made me think of is every… I think it's every quarter JP Morgan puts out this slide of the average returns that you get by asset class and then what the average ETF investor gets. And if you look at something like I think the S&P 500… And again, this is just relative. It's not… I wouldn't take these numbers for what they are. it's something like 9% over the last 20 years has been the return. But if you look at the average investor, it's like 3.6%. And if you look at the inflation rate from 1961 to today, it's about 3.8%. So not only are investors on performing a passive index, But they're like not keeping up with the rate of inflation. And it's all kind of a behavioral issue. And I think it goes into what you just said of people second guessing themselves and not understanding exactly what they're doing or their longer term strategy and maybe not understanding what they're in. So I just thought that was an interesting parallel that you made there. Now, on the next piece of the interview that I want to get into is your philosophy on investing as well as wealth building. Because you've been doing this for over 45 years, how has your thoughts on wealth changed now compared to when you first started off as an investor and a broker 45 years ago?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I hate to keep coming back to my father, but obviously he was a great mentor. And one of the other first things he told me was, pay yourself first. And as a 25-year-old whippersnapper, I didn't really quite understand that. But basically, again, it's live below your means, invest the difference. That's basically what it means by pay yourself first. And so one, I wish I maybe took that lesson to heart sooner rather than later. But, you know, we all grow, mature and learn. I think as I've gotten older, the notion of preserving capital, not making mistakes, has increased with importance. So I think the younger you are, entering peak earning years, maybe you could be a little more aggressive with your portfolio and your investment decisions. I think as you get older and you start accumulating a certain net worth, Then the scale maybe starts tipping towards capital preservation as opposed to growth. And so perhaps it's appropriate for investors to get a little more conservative as they get older. I think the other thing is I do believe in diversification. I think most of your listeners would understand our current financial world is a little bit strange. You know, the worst decisions I ever made in my life were when I refused to see reality. So to the degree you can see reality, you can make better decisions. You have to make the decisions on how it is, not how you want it to be. And I would just say in my lifetime, when I was a kid, we were on the gold standard. And then we got off the gold standard and deficits seem to matter. And now people are talking about modern monetary theory, which basically kind of says as long as governments can print money, everything's okay. And I think when you come down to it as an investor, A significant portion of the world financial order basically rests on the belief Uncle Sam, the United States of America, can pay their debts. Basically, that's a belief in the American economy and the American taxpayer. it's a little unsettling. And I think one of the ways people can protect themselves is through diversification. So I'm a big believer in diversification and I'm a real estate guy. Real estate's what I know. It's what I've spent my adult life in. And I would say probably, I don't know, 60, 65% of my net worth is in real estate. The other 30 or 40 percent is in more traditional investment stocks, mutual funds, and so forth. And I have an advisor that helps me with that. And basically it's a guy I've been with for 20 years and I trust. I don't know the stock market. He'll call me up and say, Arne, I think we should do this, this and that. I'll go, okay, Henry, I trust you. Use your judgment, do what you think is best. And so I do believe in diversification and you need to have a trusted advisor for areas that you're not an expert in. And so for me, even though I'm a big real estate guy, I still have a significant portion of my net worth in the market. Because again, I think diversification is important to kind of minimize risk in a sometimes uncertain world.
Ryan Kolden: One of my favorite investors, Howard Marks, he has a saying, which is one of the most important rules of investing is not having a permanent impairment of capital. So minimizing your downside risk and basically not making mistakes that lose everything, that zero you out. Now, the other thing that I was curious about You said your dad told you to live below your means and you didn't necessarily take it seriously. At what age do you think you took that message seriously?
Arn Cenedella: Uh, quite honestly, when, uh, I became a father and was now responsible for other human beings, uh, uh, so, uh, at least for me becoming a parent was, uh, a maturity accelerator, uh, uh, and a motivator to kind of get serious about financial matters and so forth. So that I think was kind of a turning point for me in terms of getting more serious and perhaps more intentional. about my investing and kind of financial issues. I believe I became a father at the age, it's hard to add up now, but I think at the age of 33, so still relatively a young man, about seven or eight years into my brokerage career. And so I'd say that was a turning or fundamental point for me.
Ryan Kolden: And I didn't ask you, at what age did you buy your first property? When did you become an investor? 26.
Arn Cenedella:
Okay.
Ryan Kolden: Yeah. I'm just trying to get the timeline down in my head. Yeah.
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, and I paid $175 for my first house, seemed like a heck of a lot of money. I actually paid 11.75% interest. So, you know, one thing with age and experience, you gain perspective. And so I'm not losing my mind that Mortgage rates or commercial interest rates are 6.5%, 7%. I used to sell houses in the early 1980s when home loan rates were 16.5% adjustable. So I think with a little experience comes perspective. One of the things I've learned is it's never as good as you think it is, and it's never as bad as you think it is. And I know there's a lot of concern about the real estate, commercial real estate market and the home market. And yes, we're going through a little bit of turbulent time, but I think my experience says long term, the trend is up. And I believe the value of real estate will keep going up long term, but you have to go about it in a prudent manner to be able to ride out the inevitable downturns. And to go back to your advisors thing. Investors are going to make mistakes. It's part of learning. Nobody has 100% knowledge. But yes, I've done my investing career that I've never got myself in a situation where if I made a mistake, it was a mortal wound, right? You don't want to be knocked out of the game. You could take a punch to the gut. You can get knocked down. You learn. But if you survive, you're OK. So it's always been about avoiding the mortal mistake, avoiding the huge mistake. which is why with my investing thing, I always talk about hitting line drive base hits. I don't swing for the fences. I don't swing for grand slams. And I've always seen interesting charts kind of in relation to the stock market, and it applies to real estate too, is when you have a significant loss you have to have an even bigger recovery to kind of get back to where you are, right? So if you can minimize the down, the good times are gonna come, the good times are gonna roll. So if you can minimize your down, you really can benefit from the upswing as long as you don't take a major down hit, you're gonna keep winning over time.
Ryan Kolden: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. One of the things that I've changed recently about the way that I think about things is number one, minimizing volatility. One of the things I've come to realize, I don't believe most people are true investors. And I believe Jack Vogel said something along the lines of like, if you can't stomach a 20% drawdown, you're not a true investor or you have no business investing, something along those lines. And people are their own worst enemies sometimes. They see that drawdown of 20%, 30% and then they pull out and then they miss the large swing up and they've put themselves in the worst position and they've stopped their compounding over time. And so what you just said, I think is one of the most important pieces I think people could take away is Sometimes what matters is an investment strategy that you can stick with behaviorally for the long run and what works for you. And so some people can stomach that risk and some can't. And I was actually going to ask you what makes, in your opinion, real estate an attractive asset class to you and then other people. And I think you would probably say one of those things is relative to something like the stock market, the drawdown probably isn't as severe or maybe in terms of magnitude and then also like how fast it happens.
Arn Cenedella: Yes, 100%. So I'll make some comments and I got a personal story. So one of the negatives people sometimes put forth about investing in real estate is It's an illiquid or less liquid investment, okay? And so they see that as a negative. If you own some property, you can't just flick your fingers and sell it. To me, I actually find, and this follows on your point, the less liquid nature of real estate prevents knee-jerk emotional reactions to market events. And I can tell you I'm guilty of making a knee-jerk emotional reaction. So I don't know how old you are, but there was a stock market event, I think it was called Black Monday, in October 1987. And basically the stock market dropped about 20% in one day. And I would say the market's more volatile now with computers and trading than it was 30, 40 years ago. But I was a young guy. I think I had just become a dad. I think my oldest boy, Alex, was about eight months old at that time, maybe nine months. And I had some money in the market, Black Monday hit, and the market literally dropped 20% in one day. I had an emotional reaction and I sold. I got afraid. And of course, long-term, it would have been better for me to just sit tight and do nothing. because that stock I sold the day after Black Monday is now probably worth 10 times what I sold it for. And I kind of had a similar experience when COVID hit. The market had an initial big down reaction. But this time I had an advisor and he told me, Arne, just chill. Because if you get out now when it's down… …then the question becomes, when do you get back in? And of course, when you think about that, that's an impossible question to answer, because how do you know when to get back in? You really don't. The other thing I say in real estate is the top and bottom of a market is only known six to 12 months after the fact. And it also just depends on what the time frame is that you're looking at. Having a less liquid investment, I think actually prevents these knee-jerk reactions. And I've also heard something like fears may be a stronger motivator than gain or pleasure. And so I think we tend to overreact to bad events. And if you can just stay cool and stay the course, take that 20% drop. long-term you're going to benefit. And to bring it to real estate, I own apartment buildings, investors of mine own the apartment buildings. And the truth is the value of those buildings has dropped 10 to 20% over the last two years, basically in relation to interest rates. But all the properties are cash flowing, they're running fine, they're self-supporting, they're paying for themselves, no capital calls, no need to inject other capital, they're functioning businesses that are producing cash flow. Yes, the value may be down 10-15% from the peak, but we're not selling. The finish line isn't Next month, the finish line is 2030. And to the degree investors can keep that in mind, I think they'll do better off. It's hard to do. That's where an advisor also comes in as a professional. It's easier to keep emotion out of it. So when I'm the client, I'm more emotional. When I'm the professional, I'm less emotional. And so to the degree you can keep emotion out of financial decision-making, you're probably going to be better off.
Ryan Kolden: One of the things that you started off with was saying you think the illiquid nature of real estate is one of the things that is attractive to you. Now, during that time period of COVID, you were not able to transact your properties, which prevented you from making any kind of mistake with it, but your liquid portfolio, you were able to think about it. even though you didn't do it. But just to show you, some of the benefits of real estate do include the illiquid nature. And it depends on everyone, right? Your situation, if you are somebody that you need access to liquidity and you have 100% of your portfolio in an illiquid asset, that's not a good idea. And that is not set up to your financial situation correctly. But I wholeheartedly agree with you that as long as someone has access to the proper amount of liquidity that they need in the foreseeable future, having a liquid portion of your portfolio can add a lot of benefit in preventing you from those types of situations. Now, what are some common mistakes or what do you think people get wrong when it comes to real estate and wealth building in general?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, so. Number one, I kind of subscribe to this three bucket theory, right? You got three buckets of capital, maybe capital you need in the next one to two years, maybe three to five year capital, and then five to ever. So I think that's a good way to think about it when investors are allocating capital, kind of think about that. So what I would say in terms of real estate, Investors in real estate are going to do better to the degree they understand it's a long-term investment. It's not a get-rich-quick thing. So if you go into a deal expecting to hit the mother load, you're more likely to go in riskier deals that ultimately are going to maybe blow up in your face. So to the degree that you have realistic expectations, of what this real estate investment can do, to the degree you're looking long term, I think that sets you up to make decisions that are more solid. In real estate, people generally get hurt for one or two reasons. They over leverage the property and also get adjustable rate debt. It's interesting, the 2007-2008 implosion in the single family market was in large part due to no qualifying, no dock, low money down, adjustable rate mortgages. Some of the turbulence we're seeing in multifamily now is due to high leverage floating rate debt based on a business pro forma, based on what the property could produce in two years, not the actual. So they're very much similar. They go by different names, but I think when you get down to them, they're essentially just two sides of the coin, and they both had these kind of impacts. over leveraging a property, not getting fixed rate debt. And then the other thing I think is important as a real estate investor, you have to have ample cash reserves because the roof's going to need replacement. You're going to have to redo a parking lot. You may have to replace an elevator. Those are all big ticket items. And so you need to budget for that. so you can properly maintain your property, maintain its value, maintain its rental income. So over leveraging is a big problem and going into the deal too thin without the necessary capital reserves sets you up in a situation where if the market turns or Murphy's Law hits and something happens, as it always does, then you could be in a position where you can no longer continue to own or maintain that property. And if you have to sell in a down market, that's when you get hurt. Whereas if you go into it properly, fixed rate debt, not over leveraged, ample cash reserves, you ride out the stormy times and then you're going to benefit when it's good. So that I think are the two biggest mistakes.
Ryan Kolden: Speaking of leverage, how do you view leverage in the context of wealth building? How do you think about using other people's money into helping them master portfolio? Do you think the average person should stay away from leverage? Do you think the average person should You know, think about utilizing leverage. Do you think the average person should partner with a professional, you know, like a like yourself, like a fund, a professional money manager to utilize that? How how do you view leverage?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, good question. And I would say leverage is both. Money financing, right, capital. And leverage is also professional ability and experience. So I think investors can take advantage of leverage by, one, working with people who really know the asset class that they're working in. This is what they live and breathe. This is what they talk 24-7. A doctor can be a brilliant surgeon, the best in the world, that doesn't mean he's an expert in real estate investing. I'm a big believer in specialization of labor, and there's talent, and there's specialty, and there's knowledge. So I think investors can leverage the professional ability of people who are in a particular asset class. In terms of financing, Leverage is really the key to real estate investing. And it's probably one of the reasons real estate is one of the best investments in my opinion, because the way you can leverage it and the rates you can get are very attractive. So when you can control 100% of the asset, by putting down 20% to 25% down, having 20% to 25% of the capital in, control 100% of the asset. If that asset goes up 10%, the return on your down payment, I can't calculate it in my head, might be closer to 100%, not just the 10% on the value. So the leverage maximizes your returns because you're getting return on the total value of the asset and it only took you a limited amount of capital to kind of acquire that. And if the income, rent, whatever it happens to be, will pay your mortgage cost, your finance, your debt cost, Then essentially that leverage comes at no cost to you because the property's paying for itself, your tenants are paying the mortgage, and you get 100% of the upside. So that to me is one of the great things about real estate. Yes, you can buy stock on margin, but typically you're not getting fixed rate debt. You're not getting long-term debt like you can in real estate. And when you can fix the cost of your capital long-term, that's a win for any kind of business venture.
Ryan Kolden: Yep. Now, I do want to just remind everyone before Arne, we started talking about the benefits of leverage, Arne warned everybody about the negatives of leverage, and it can be your kryptonite if you let it be. So yes, the With regards to the end game for you, Arne, what do you envision that looking like? Do you see yourself having an exit strategy or can you not even envision yourself getting out of the real estate game? Is it something you want to keep doing for as long as you can?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, that's a great question. I'm 69, in great health, love what I do, passionate about real estate. My two primary business partners, one just turned 50, kind of left his corporate 30-year career from real estate investing. So people can get there through real estate investing. My other partner's late 40s. I don't say this to brag or anything, but I'm financially set. I'm in good shape. My financial advisor says I have more than enough money to last me to 100, right? So I do the real estate because I enjoy it. It adds to the totality of my life. I enjoy the relationships and the partnerships. I also enjoy helping other people get the benefits of real estate. I had the good fortune to get into it, have a great mentor in my father. And so I'd like to see other people who are working hard, they're under stress, they have demands, they have responsibilities… Create a little bit better life for themselves through real estate investing. Perhaps take off some of the financial pressure. Give them options. Like a lot of my investors are kind of early to mid 40s. They have families, but they're starting to look at what's the next chapter going to be like in their life, and how do they maximize time with their family now, but how do they create that joyous full life that they've worked hard for for 30 years to get to. And so to get back to the answer to your question, I'm going to keep doing this as long as I enjoy it. And I think that will be for some time. One of the benefits of going from single family to multifamily is Single family investing is often kind of a solitary experience, where with multifamily, it's usually partnerships of individuals. And in my mind, the best is maybe three or four people. You get too many, there's problems on that angle. So with multifamily, Each partner, each member of the team can kind of focus on what they do. And what I like to do is hunt deals, network with people, talk to investors. I don't necessarily enjoy the day-to-day operation of the properties anymore. I'll be frank, I don't. I don't want to It's a full-time job. Yeah, it's a full-time job. I don't want to collect rent. I don't want to call the plumber. And the other thing is, I understand the numbers, but I'm not a spreadsheet geek. And so my two partners, one kind of handles the heavy analysis, handles the accounting, financial. He was trained as a CFO. He loves that. He's great at it. He's better than me at it. My other partner, Brian, comes from a different background, trained as a master plumber, loves getting stuff done. That's his superpower. So he loves taking care of the day to day nuts and bolts operation. So for me, I don't have to deal with the chores, chores that I don't enjoy. And I've set up a team and I'm part of a team that allows me to do what I enjoy. Tonight, my four partners and I and their wives, we're going to dinner. We closed a nice deal last month, finally getting time to celebrate. And so it's going to be a good social occasion. And as long as it's fun, I'm going to keep doing it.
Ryan Kolden: Well, congratulations on closing that deal. Well, thank you. Yeah. Well, Arne, I've really enjoyed talking with you. We've been going for about 40 minutes. If someone wants to learn more about what you do, what Spark Investment Group is about, where can they contact you and where can they learn more about what Spark does?
Arn Cenedella: Yeah, I appreciate that. So I'm very active on social media, either Facebook and LinkedIn, either under my individual name, Arne Cenedela, or under Spark Investment Group. My website is investwithspark.com. So reach out anytime, happy to discuss what I do and You know, if I can help you achieve your goals, then maybe we can do business together. And if we're not a right fit, that's OK, too. So always happy to talk to folks.
Ryan Kolden: Fantastic. Well, I'll make sure to go ahead and put all of the links to your social media, as well as your website in the description and the show notes so people can find it. Aren't you have any last words that you want to leave the audience with?
Arn Cenedella: I believe in real estate. The media likes to preach doom and gloom, so don't necessarily pay attention to the doom and gloom, but educate yourself before you start investing. Find trusted operators to work with, and I think that would be my final words. Well, perfect.
Ryan Kolden: Arne, again, thank you so much for coming on the show. Enjoyed having you. That's a wrap for today's show. Appreciate you listening and take care until next time. Hey, real quick before you go, thanks for listening and please remember to hit follow on your podcast player. You won't miss any episodes and it helps support us bring you the show. Today's show notes and resources are available to you by clicking the link in the description. The opinions and views expressed here are for informational purposes only and is not tax, legal, financial, investment or accounting advice. This material is educational in nature and should not be deemed as solicitation of any specific product or service. All investments involve risk and a potential for a loss of principal. Should you need such advice, please consult with a licensed financial, tax, or legal professional. Neither host nor guest can be held responsible for any direct or incidental loss incurred by applying any of the information offered.